Susan's Place Transgender Resources

This post is long, so sorry about that. Ultimately, it is about how hormone use in pregnant women could cause transgender babies - specifically in context of trans guys, so if that interests you - read on.

I am always looking for answers about why people are transgender - the science side of it. I've been wading through a bunch of threads here where some very informed people were talking about hormones in the womb. They were talking about it in context of DES and trans women, and as I am FTM and was born in 1984, it is not applicable to me, but I did find the information very enlightening in a general sense. There were, however, a few posts speculating about what could cause FTM development with the use of hormones during pregnancy, so I wanted to bring that discussion over here specifically.

My knowledge of hormones and development is very, very limited, so please excuse my gross over simplification. So if my understanding of this is wrong, please correct me.

As I understand it, there are stages of sexual differentiation in fetal development, with the body developments taking place first and the brain second. If a fetus is exposed to cross sex hormones or is prevented from getting the right hormones during key stages, you get the development of the opposite gender, and then depending on when it happens and to what degree, you can get an inter-sex or a transgender baby.

Just understanding it at this level has helped me process my own feelings about being transgender. This explanation makes sense, and I really wish it would start showing up in places, at least generally, when transgender people are talked about in the media instead of some journalist musing about the social construction of gender. Anyways.

But, of course, I still want to know what happened to me specifically.

My mom had 5 miscarriages before having me, and then had a difficult birth and I was delivered by c-section. She called me her 'miracle baby' growing up and that it was all 'thanks to the progestins.'  I am pretty sure she was full to the brim of synthetic hormones to prevent miscarriage when she was pregnant with me, and likely was during the years she was trying to get pregnant. I know (pretty sure at least) that synthetic progesterone was given to pregnant women to prevent miscarriage, and it is given during the same timeframe in the pregnancy where sexual differentiation of brain development takes place.

I never thought anything about this in connection to my trans-ness until there were a few posts on a couple of the threads about how hormone use in pregnant woman could cause FTM transsexualism.

On those posts , I think it was talked about in context of synthetic hormones binding to androgen receptors in the developing fetus (this is where my understanding starts to unravel) and leading to male brain development after female body development had been put in place.

Now, my brain that has been seeking answers is willing to accept this explanation, and I really want to just tell myself "it was the drugs to prevent miscarriage" and have my answer and be done with it.

I am curious though...because this is really just speculation in the end. Does anyone else know that their mom had miscarriages before they had you? Implying that she may have been given a drug to prevent it the next time around. Or that she was given hormones during pregnancy for whatever reason.

There were also posts in one of the threads about how trans people show up in high stress pregnancies, such as those leading to adoptions, and also in cases with twins, due to the stress causing hormonal imbalances. So, of course there is more than one reason a person could end up trans. People were trans way before pregnant women were given synthetic hormones of course.

I dunno, I just feel like I found the smoking gun to why I am trans, at least at a level my brain that really wants answers is willing to accept, so I wanted to see what other people thought.

My mother had three normal births, no miscarriages, no difficulty getting pregnant. As far as I'm aware, the only drug she had ever taken was birth control.
Maybe the hormones went wrong in the womb? Idk

It's an interesting theory, and it'd be nice if scientists would pick it up and do some research, but we all know that's not going to happen.  ::)

My mom had a miscarriage after me, but not before as far as I know, so that doesn't seem to be my reason. But I do find it interesting that three out of three children were born/would have been born female. I have an older sister (who's cis and straight) and would've had a younger sister as well, so that's something I'd probably look into for research.

I believe they did find some evidence to support the idea that if one person has a lot of male babies, the younger ones are more likely to be gay because of hormone imbalances. I don't know if that transfers over to female babies because I believe the reason was the large amount of T in the pregnant person's body to make males causes a surge of E to make up for it. I don't know, but it's interesting and I certainly think it'd be worth looking into.

My mother had 2 miscarriages (would've been two older brothers) before having me.
I'm guessing T was running wild in the womb and that affected me.

I think I'm familiar with the thread you mentioned.

My mother was given progesterone when she was pregnant with me. I'm the first born and she didn't have any miscarriages before me (she had one years later though) but she did have me at a later age so I believe that's why the doctors gave it to her. I think that's the only hormone she was given and I'm not sure if she took anything when she was pregnant with my younger siblings. I had a really difficult birth, I got stuck in the birth canal and had to be pulled out with forceps, but I'm not sure if the doctors gave her anything during that or if it would cause any changes in my hormone levels that late in my birth. I can try asking my mother more about it if I find a good way to broach the subject then post more about what I find out.

I don't like how a lot of people seem to think that being transgender is merely mental or a choice either. If there was more proof that being transgender is basically an intersex condition of the brain it would be life changing for many people.

I'm interested in seeing what others have to say about this.  I'm also very interested in the science behind this.  There seems to be a fair bit for transwomen, but studies with transmen are a lot more sparse. I think it's really important that there's more evidence showing the intersex conditions of transsexuals' brains. There just aren't enough studies.  That said, there have been studies that were done with very, very reliable results, so little room for possible deviation. I feel that this one particular study should hold a lot of weight because of that, even though it was only one study with relatively fewer people involved. But we really need more like that.

I'm the fourth child from my mother who had 4 pregnancies and, as far as I know, there were never any complications for any of us.  However, from what I've gathered, she was under a great amount of stress and also depression at the time she was pregnant with me. So, I dunno, maybe there's something in that.

Joined to respond and say thank you for this post.

I remember years ago when I told my mother I was a lesbian she was very upset/concerned because she said she'd taken some sort of drug during her pregnancy that occasionally had masculinizing effects. (Of course, my response at the time was to be like "Masculinizing effects? I'm just a lesbian, nothing masculine about me, no worries mom!")

I've often wondered about what that drug was and whether it might have something to do with my gender stuff since then, but couldn't figure out what it might have been. I did read about severe effects from progesterone, but since my genitals were normal enough looking I figured that couldn't have been it. But, my mom definitely had a miscarriage before she had me, and since I was born in 1978 and my mother was in her mid thirties it makes sense that she could have been treated with it.

It makes some common sense that a drug that can cause masculinized genitals in severe cases could also have more subtle effects that showed up gradually or at puberty in other cases. I'm off to check google scholar to see if there's been any other work done on this!

Edited to add: A preliminary search of google scholar turned up this: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=JFpq6hYQRhQC&oi=fnd&pg=PA41&dq=progestin+during+pregnancy+ftm+trans&ots=FkmdAI-7uz&sig=GO_1gR9Xpp-Co5g7GSMXfAVw2Vs#v=onepage&q&f=false which is suggestive although it doesn't specifically discuss the use of progesterone in pregnant women.

When I asked my mom about any sort of medication she took while pregnant she said she hadn't taken anything at all. I was the first kid and i recall her saying it wasn't a particularly easy pregnancy, but I don't know much about the details. My sister came three years after but she hasn't been able to get pregnant since though.

I'm sort of dying to find evidence that being trans counts as an intersex condition though, if I can do that I might have a chance at transition..

as far as my knowledge goes, my mother wasn't taking any hormones or anything while pregnant with me. however, she was definitely under stress, and my older brother was quite late as well, if that could possibly have anything to do with it. anyways, i don't believe she had any miscarriages either, either before or after me (i also have a younger sister), but i'm not certain.

here's a few links I saved when I was going through those threads I mentioned in case anyone wanted to read them. I didn't find these, so thanks to the people that posted them initially.

someone else's giant list of links:
https://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2014/08/14/one-stop-trans-brain-research-list/

a study about hormones in the womb done on monkeys:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/

a big presentation about gender identity and the brain: (I haven't watched it yet, but I saved it because it looks interesting)
http://media01.commpartners.com/AMA/sexual_identity_jan_2011/index.html

It's great that some of you people are also starting to take an interest in synthetic hormones as a cause of transness. For some time I've been banging the drum about DES as a cause of MTF transness, however, I think it's inevitable that there must also be at least some people who are FTM as a result of exposure to progestins. Although they're supposed to be mimicking a female hormone, the early progestins were all derivatives of testosterone, and, while they're only weakly androgenizing in adult women, some of them turned out to have  quite strong androgenic effects on female fetuses.

There's a wikipedia article about progestin-induced virilization, which makes it sound like only a very small number of babies were affected. Progestins were commonly co-prescribed with DES from about 1950 onwards though, so the total number exposed must be quite high (probably in the millions). There's definitely been a cover up with DES-induced intersex cases and there probably has with progestins too. Also, with all these hormone treatments aimed at preventing miscarriages, most of the exposure tends to happen during the second and third trimester, by which time genital development is largely complete and when the main thing going on is brain development. The result is that the brain is much more likely to be affected than the genitals.

As this excerpt from the book "Brain Sex" shows:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi79.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj150%2Fmightyhugh%2FBrainSex_ch2009_zps8f4ae3b5.gif&hash=f28fd124c627a273063d12e8734af3f1b2c39ede)

it's been known for some time that being prenatally exposed to medical hormones can result in lifelong changes in a person's behaviour and personality (feminization of male and masculinization of female behaviour). "Brain Sex" was published in 1989, and the research on which that excerpt was based was carried out in the 1970s (I think the "male hormone" they're referring to in that excerpt is both danazol and progestins, both of which have been shown to cause masculinization of female fetuses).

This paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/

provides a good introduction to the history behind the discovery that it's hormones and not genes that determine which sex you develop as, and the importance of testosterone (and its derivative DHT) in driving masculinization of the brain. Basically, hormones have two distinct sets of effects, depending on what stage of your life exposure takes place. During your prenatal development, they have "organizational" effects, directing first your reproductive organs and then your brain to either develop as male or female. During puberty and in your adult life, they have "activational" effects, in which they bring to life all the stuff that was laid down during the organizational phase. The activational effects are only temporary, but whatever happens during the organizational period is permanent.

If you read through that paper, you'll see that, in some of the experiments, they created what were basically FTM Rhesus monkeys (genetically female and with female genitals, but with male behaviour), just by injecting the mother with testosterone (or DHT) during the second half of the pregnancy.

DHT is the main hormone that drives male genital development, and from those experiments we know that it can also induce male brain development. Since some baby girls ended up with severely virilized genitals due to progestin exposure, that makes it almost certain that some ended up with severely virilized brains due to progestins too. In fact, as with DES, because of the way most exposure to these hormone treatments tends to happen later in the pregnancy, it's far more likely that brain development will be affected rather than genital development.

Here's the Wikipedia article about progestin-induced virilization:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progestin-induced_virilisation

A couple of articles about the hidden history of mass prenatal progestin exposure:
http://prenatalexposures.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/worse-than-thalidomide-consequences-of.html
http://www.germlineexposures.org/jill-escher-qa.html

Hopefully that helps!

I myself was the first pregnancy and a very easy one. I was premature due to ammonia poisoning but other than that I caused my mother no problems. She didn't even have morning sickness with me. I think I know more about her pregnancy with me than my dad does at this point because I wanted to find some answers.

It would certainly be interesting if they could find some sort of common thread in development.

DES isn't known to be a cause of FTMs, only MTFs, afaik. DES is an estrogen product (rather high dose). Have heard that intrauterine hormones. But can be completely naturally introduced. I have never heard that miscarriages have anything to do with this, but it is possible of course.

--Jay

Transgender people have been around since long before DES, and we will continue to be long after it was discontinued.    I would think that just about anything that disrupts a pregnant woman's endocrine system could cause a brain to masculinize or fail to do so regardless of the fetus' chromosomal makeup.

Or it was this guy:  >:-)... /snark

Quote from: spacerace on February 10, 2015, 07:20:21 PM
here's a few links I saved when I was going through those threads I mentioned in case anyone wanted to read them. I didn't find these, so thanks to the people that posted them initially.

someone else's giant list of links:
https://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2014/08/14/one-stop-trans-brain-research-list/

a study about hormones in the womb done on monkeys:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/

a big presentation about gender identity and the brain: (I haven't watched it yet, but I saved it because it looks interesting)
http://media01.commpartners.com/AMA/sexual_identity_jan_2011/index.html

Thanks for thelinks!

Quote from: aleon515 on February 10, 2015, 09:15:23 PM
DES isn't known to be a cause of FTMs, only MTFs, afaik. DES is an estrogen product (rather high dose). Have heard that intrauterine hormones. But can be completely naturally introduced. I have never heard that miscarriages have anything to do with this, but it is possible of course.

--Jay

There's a regular poster at Laura's Playground who's FTM and a DES baby, so there's exceptions to every rule. However, you're right, DES is mainly associated with MTF transsexuality. I've spent quite a lot of time since 2011 looking at it's effects, due to the fact that I've had a lot of the same life experiences as genetic males who were exposed to DES commonly seem to go through, similar hormonal problems, and I was born with one of the types of genital abnormalities that appear to be linked to DES exposure too. The main difference is that I've got a gender identity which is kind of a mixture of male and female rather than being fully female (which is what usually seems to happen with DES). Based on what I've read about fetal development, I think the exposure in my case must have only been during the second trimester, so I had normal male development during the first and third trimesters (whereas DES was usually administered for both the second and third trimesters). I've got no way of confirming this though, since the only person who knew for sure what happened while she was pregnant with me passed away in 2010.

However, in the course of finding out about DES, I've been reading a fair bit about progestins (which are a second type of synthetic hormones that have seen a lot of use for preventing miscarriages). Although they haven't achieved the same level of publicity as DES, progestins are known to have been the cause of some cases of intersex in genetic females, and there's good theoretical reasons for thinking progestin exposure could have caused some (and potentially quite a lot of) cases of FTM transsexuality. Hence, I'm trying to share what I know with my FTM brothers!

If you look at the stuff I've posted recently on the DES thread, the CDC are blatantly lying about the effects of DES. If they're lying about the effects of one of these hormone treatments and its links to transsexuality, chances are they're hiding stuff connected to other hormone treatments too. Considering that these substances could be the underlying cause of a lot of us being trans, I think the more of us looking into their effects the better!

I wonder if something was found to cause being trans if people would make sure it wouldnt result in more trans people...?

Quote from: Jill F on February 10, 2015, 09:28:19 PM
Transgender people have been around since long before DES, and we will continue to be long after it was discontinued.    I would think that just about anything that disrupts a pregnant woman's endocrine system could cause a brain to masculinize or fail to do so regardless of the fetus' chromosomal makeup.

Or it was this guy:  >:-)... /snark

Very true. I was thinking about this and I started to wonder what the ramifications would be if the medical community tried to make this links. In that event, people like me and those who came before would be considered "false transgender". I have no doubt about myself and like sure others have no doubt.

I think trying to find something causes the brain/body mix up would be valuable and important but I certainly know that I would be uncomfortable with doctors telling me that my mothers medical history means I'm not me.

Edit to add: to clarify I'm not saying that chemicals don't affect the development of the brain. I meant linking trans to one specific hormone like DES. We don't fully understand how the human body works at this time. It would be a very big medical discovery if could learn the mysteries of human biology

Quote from: hiddenfeatherscanfly on February 11, 2015, 01:20:26 AM
I wonder if something was found to cause being trans if people would make sure it wouldnt result in more trans people...?

I wonder if I would object to that. This is a lot of heartache to wish upon someone.

My post was really long so I just wanted to clarify things:

-people are trans for all kinds of reasons...but those reasons are undoubtedly rooted in biological brain development influenced by hormones (hormones generally, not just hormones given to pregnant women). I find this information empowering, personally, instead of a denial of identity. We are all who we are because of the biological make up of our brains, trans or not.

-I was talking about synthetic progesterone, not DES. DES was a drug given to women and discounted before 1970 I think. It was estrogen based, thus its association with trans women not trans men.  The DES threads on this forum are where I first saw the mention of progesterone (not the same as DES) in relation to FTM brain development.

-My post was about synthetic progesterone and FTMs, as *one* cause of hormone imbalance, not DES and not the only cause. I should have made this clear since it was kinda buried in the middle of my long post. Synthetic progesterone is what binds to androgen receptors.

Quote from: aleon515 on February 10, 2015, 09:15:23 PM
DES isn't known to be a cause of FTMs, only MTFs, afaik. DES is an estrogen product (rather high dose). Have heard that intrauterine hormones. But can be completely naturally introduced. I have never heard that miscarriages have anything to do with this, but it is possible of course.

--Jay

--------

Quote from: Jill F on February 10, 2015, 09:28:19 PM
Transgender people have been around since long before DES, and we will continue to be long after it was discontinued.    I would think that just about anything that disrupts a pregnant woman's endocrine system could cause a brain to masculinize or fail to do so regardless of the fetus' chromosomal makeup.

Or it was this guy:  >:-)... /snark

I agree that people are trans probably for any reason that hormones can go wrong in the womb.

The problem with doing studies of any kind is separating out any kind of causal mechanism. For example, even when I know my mom was on progesterone, she also did have 5 miscarriages for a reason. I think maybe she should have taken the hint from her womb and stopped trying, honestly. So, it could have just been her toxic womb with some massive hormone imbalance that caused trans development in my brain, or whatever it is that happened. That many miscarriages probably puts a lot of stress on a body at the very least.

-----

Quote from: HughE on February 11, 2015, 01:01:54 AM
However, in the course of finding out about DES, I've been reading a fair bit about progestins (which are a second type of synthetic hormones that have seen a lot of use for preventing miscarriages). Although they haven't achieved the same level of publicity as DES, progestins are known to have been the cause of some cases of intersex in genetic females, and there's good theoretical reasons for thinking progestin exposure could have caused some (and potentially quite a lot of) cases of FTM transsexuality. Hence, I'm trying to share what I know with my FTM brothers!

Thank you for all the information you have posted Hugh. I have more reading to do. It has been really helpful - I appreciate it. One thing I was going to ask you, as I saw it mentioned on of those threads - were you talking about progestins still in use causing both FTM and MTF development in different ways? How does that work in terms of what binds to what receptors, and when?

Many people want to know why they are they way they are, so speculating about it, as long as it is understood that is all is at least in this context, can be helpful, at least to me, in processing how I think about myself, so seriously - thanks a ton.

Quote from: Contravene on February 10, 2015, 01:26:40 PM
I don't like how a lot of people seem to think that being transgender is merely mental or a choice either. If there was more proof that being transgender is basically an intersex condition of the brain it would be life changing for many people.

To me, this is the most important takeway from all this - no matter if it is synthetic hormones given to pregnant women or stress causing high levels of male hormones in the womb, or whatever... This isn't some wibbly wobbly flight of fancy based on postmodern gender interpretations, it is just biology.

The science of it would be a powerful weapon against otherwise intelligent people who dismiss us out of hand for playing identity politics alone. Responses like, "well, I decided I was a unicorn, so you must acknowledge me as such" are what I mean.

Also helpful when coming out to people when you can preface it with the generalized hormone balance in the womb caused by unknown reasons explanation, I would think.

Quote from: spacerace on February 11, 2015, 10:56:47 AM
Thank you for all the information you have posted Hugh. I have more reading to do. It has been really helpful - I appreciate it. One thing I was going to ask you, as I saw it mentioned on of those threads - were you talking about progestins still in use causing both FTM and MTF development in different ways? How does that work in terms of what binds to what receptors, and when?

I'm not sure how much you know about synthetic hormones, but they're manmade compounds that are designed to activate the same receptors that the steroid hormones naturally produced in the human body do.

Steroid hormones control all sorts of different aspects involved in the day to day running of your body, which makes them potentially very useful from a medical point of view. However, the natural hormones suffer from a number of limitations: they're largely or completely destroyed by the liver if taken by mouth, so they generally have to be administered by injection; their biological half life tends to be quite short (particularly with progesterone) so they need to be frequently re-administered; and they often get converted into other hormones with completely different properties (eg testosterone converts to estradiol). Also, they're naturally occurring substances, so can't be patented!

Hence, the pharmaceutical industry developed synthetic hormones to overcome those limitations. Most of them are chemically modified versions of the naturally occurring hormones, although a few (DES is one) have a completely unrelated structure to the hormone they're mimicking. One thing pretty much all synthetic hormones have in common is that they're resistant (or often completely untouched) by all the systems the human body has in place for controlling and limiting what the natural hormones can do, and getting rid of them if they get into the "wrong" place. This is great from a medical point of view, since it means that they're generally more potent and longer acting than the natural hormones (and often orally active too), however it also means that they can cross the placenta and potentially have all kinds of effects on an unborn baby that the natural hormones wouldn't have.

There's 5 different classes of synthetic hormones (corresponding to the 5 different types of hormone receptor): estrogens, progestins, androgens (aka anabolic steroids), glucocorticoids (aka corticosteroids), and mineralocorticoids. The important ones from our point of view are the sex hormone mimics, the two female ones (estrogens and progestins), and the male one (anabolic steroids). Anabolic steroids mimic the action of androgens (testosterone and DHT); estrogens and progestins mimic the action of estradiol and progesterone respectively.

As far as I can gather, the only anabolic steroid that's seen any significant use during pregnancy is danazol, however, due to the fact that an insufficiency of female hormones has long been regarded as one of the main causes of miscarriage, both estrogens and progestins have been used very extensively.

Being female hormone derivatives, one property both estrogens and progestins share is that they're basically completely incompatible with maleness. Quite modest doses of either (well below what are commonly used for medical treatment in women) will completely suppress T production in an adult man. For instance, a dose of between 1 and 3 mg per day of DES is enough to completely suppress T production in prostate cancer patients, whereas the doses being used for miscarriage prevention were much higher than that - greater than 50mg per day throughout the second half of the pregnancy, which appears to be the critical period for gender development in the brain.

A similar situation applies with progestins. They're also highly effective at suppressing T production in adult men (the drug most commonly used to chemically castrate sex offenders in the US is Depo Provera, a progestin that's also used as an injectable contraceptive in women, and (I think) has been used in the past for miscarriage prevention). Apparently the same dose as is used for contraception in women (one 160mg shot every 3 months) is enough to maintain a state of full chemical castration in a man, although I've heard they double up the dose for sex offenders just to make sure!

Provera is the main progestin that's been used in males, however I understand that there's one called hydroxyprogesterone caproate that's sometimes used as part of MTF transgender HRT, and of course plenty of trans women have used birth control pills or contraceptive injections as a stopgap measure when they haven't been able to obtain legitimate access to hormones. Although they often add a small amount of estrogen to increase the effectiveness, progestins are the main hormonal component in womens contraception, and they all seem to work really well when it comes to shutting down T production in a male body. Hence, it's easy to how both estrogens such as DES, and progestins, could cause female brain development in biological males (and MTF transsexuality), by suppressing T production during the second half of the pregnancy.

However, there's a second property of progestins that mean that, under the right circumstances, they might be able to cause the opposite effect too, of causing male brain development in female fetuses.

One thing that happens when you start tinkering around with the chemical structure of hormones is that they often start to cross-react with non target receptor types. This is particularly a problem with progestins and anabolic steroids. Although they're based on testosterone and meant to target androgen receptors, a lot of anabolic steroids cross-react with progesterone receptors and thus, to varying degrees, act as progestins too. Likewise, most progestins cross-react with androgen receptors and have some anabolic effects. While the pharma industry carefully selected compounds that maximised the progestin effect and minimised the androgenic effects in adults, some of the early progestins turned out to have very strong androgenic effects on female fetuses (I gather this is thought to have been due to hormonally active breakdown products of the parent compound accumulating to an unexpectedly high level in the fetus).

There's yet a further complication to the story: there are two subtypes of androgen receptor, one of which is activated by either testosterone or DHT, the other only responding to DHT. We know from the monkey research that either T or DHT will drive brain masculinization (there's a condition called 5-ARD which confirms the same applies to humans too), which means the (T + DHT) receptor subtype must be the main one in fetal brain tissue. Conversely, genital masculinization only occurs in the presence of DHT, meaning that the DHT-only subtype must be the main one expressed in genital tissue.

What this means is that, if a particular progestin causes genital masculinization, then it's virtually certain that it activates the other, less selective receptor subtype as well, and can masculinize the brain. However, there's no guarantee of the reverse - just because it's not activating the DHT-only receptor subtype and causing genital masculinization, doesn't mean it isn't capable of activating the (T + DHT) receptors and masculinizing the brains of female fetuses exposed to it. In other words, since some progestins have been associated with virilizing effects, IMO that makes the whole lot suspect when it comes to brain masculinization (at least until proven otherwise).

I disagree. And honestly couldn't care less as to how I'm transsexual. I feel that finding a medical answer behind my transsexual biology would only depress me further and make me wish my mother hadn't conceived me even more, and ultimately the biology is unchangeable so it would only indefinitely trigger my dysphoria even more also. Maybe if the biology could be corrected like my presentation can be to a degree, I would care. My mother wasn't given progestins of any kind during her pregnancy with me, so I personally see that theory as illegitimate and a failure in practice, or a partial one in the least, maybe there is a risk but it only effects a percentage of unborn babies. I don't want to be negative or knock anyone but that's just my personal view.

I don't care how I am transsexual, biologically. Not knowing allows me to dissociate from the crap and psychologically negative impact it has on me and my functioning. And knowing would, at best, do nothing for me anyways, and in the worst scenario it would make my life more difficult and hate on myself and my parents even more than I already do, and it would reiterate how much of a freak I feel like and how unchangeable my biology is and will most likely always be. I don't need to be broken further. But each to their own.

-Trez

Quote from: ThatAussieDude on February 13, 2015, 07:07:18 AM
My mother wasn't given progestins of any kind during her pregnancy with me, so I personally see that theory as illegitimate and a failure in practice, or a partial one in the least, maybe there is a risk but it only effects a percentage of unborn babies.

No one's saying that medical hormones are the cause of all cases of transness, just that one at least (DES) does appear to be a significant factor causing both intersex-related abnormalities and MTF transsexuality, and there's good theoretical reasons for thinking that progestins could be a cause of FTM transness (especially since progestins are known to have caused some biologically female people to be born intersexed). Considering the unhappy lives trans folk often have and the high suicide rate, if there's an easy way to prevent people from ending up trans by just restricting the use of certain medicines during pregnancy, then obviously that's what should happen.

Also, if people knew that a lot of trans folk are trans due to a medical accident, I think it'd do a lot to improve public attitudes towards us and acceptance of us (and hopefully improve our prospects when it comes to healthcare, housing and jobs too).

Quote
I don't care how I am transsexual, biologically. Not knowing allows me to dissociate from the crap and psychologically negative impact it has on me and my functioning.

Doesn't it help to know that there's a physical basis to being trans, that it's not a psychological disorder but simply the result of the wrong hormones being present during the time your brain was developing, so you've ended up with a male brain rather than a female one? Once you know that, then it's just a matter of figuring out the best way of dealing with the situation that allows you to be the person you want to be, and live your life the way you want to. If I'd known what I know now when I was younger, I'd have lived my life very differently, and I think it would have been a lot less traumatic and a lot more enjoyable as a result.

I already know it is a physical problem. Doesn't necessarily mean I want or need answers to it. Having gender dysphoria removed from the DSM is far more important to me.

My dad's been trying to come up with a reason for my trans-ness for a long time now. Between ourselves we sort of concluded it probably had something to do with the fact that my mother went off the birth control pill the day before I was conceived, and that her hormones probably weren't quite back to normal yet.

Here's a few more links that make me think synthetic hormones (progestins in particular) might be a cause of FTM transness.

Firstly, there's this paper, Prenatal Exposure to Synthetic Progestins and Estrogens: Effects on Human Development:
http://www.germlineexposures.org/uploads/6/4/0/9/6409433/reinisch_and_karow_1977.pdf

Which clearly shows that some of the world's top psychologists have known for a long time that estrogens and progestins affect human brain development, and that progestins have masculinizing effects on female behaviour, e.g.:

QuoteEhrhardt and Money (1967) published a study often girls treated prenatally with synthetic progestins in which detailed inquiry was made into IQ and personality development. Analysis of extensive interviews given to both the subjects and their mothers demonstrated an unusually high degree of"tomboyism" in these treated subjects. Tomboyism was defined as "play with boys' toys; athletic energy; outdoor pursuits; and minimal concern for feminine frills, doll play, baby care, and household chores." Unexpectedly, the subjects also evidenced extraordinarily high IQs as measured by the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children, The mean IQ of the group was 125, with a standard deviation of 11.8. Sixty percent of the IQs were above 130, when only 2% would be predicted from a random sampling of the normal population.

Then, there's these two papers, which taken together have really got me thinking that progestins (or something else with androgenizing properties) might be an important factor behind FTM transness. The first one is a study of ewes (i.e. female sheep) that were exposed to testosterone in the womb, and ended up developing a pattern of disrupted endocrine function that was very similar to PCOS in human beings:
Prenatal Programming of Reproductive Neuroendocrine Function: Fetal Androgen Exposure Produces Progressive Disruption of Reproductive Cycles in Sheep
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/en.2002-220965

Right at the end it says this:

QuoteOf interest is the observation that the compromised feedback and multifollicular morphology of ovaries from T60 ewes are remarkably similar to those found in women with disorders of androgen excess, such as polycystic ovary syndrome and congenital adrenal hyperplasia (36, 37, 38). Polycystic ovary syndrome is a disorder associated with abnormal follicle development, hyperandrogenization, and hypersecretion of LH and is probably the most common cause of anovulation in women of reproductive age (36). Many of these characteristics are also displayed by female sheep androgenized in utero (10, 32, 33, 34, 35, 39), raising the possibility that prenatal androgen exposure could be a developmental factor implicated in the etiology of this common disorder.

Put that together with the findings of this paper:
http://www.shb-info.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/14_saito_et_al.pdf
Association between polycystic ovary syndrome and female-to-male transsexuality

QuoteRESULTS: Of the 69 participating FTM cases, 40 (58.0%) were found to have PCOS...Of 69 for whom androgens were measured, 29 (39.1%) showed hyperandrogenaemia...CONCLUSIONS: FTM transsexual patients have a high prevalence of PCOS and hyperandrogenaemia.

(hyperandrogenemia = above normal female testosterone production)

This is analogous to the way a high percentage of trans women (and in particular, DES-exposed trans women) have signs of hypogonadism (below normal male testosterone) even prior to starting on hormones.

One other thing folks here might find interesting is this paper:
Behavioral and Somatic Disorders in Children Exposed in Utero to Synthetic Hormones: A Testimony-Case Study in a French Family Troop
http://www.intechopen.com/books/state-of-the-art-of-therapeutic-endocrinology/behavioral-and-somatic-disorders-in-children-exposed-in-utero-to-synthetic-hormones-a-testimony-case

Although they don't mention ->-bleeped-<- in that paper, I've a feeling that France has quite a macho culture, and being trans might well have been the underlying cause of most of the suicides and psychiatric problems they're talking about, except nobody wants to admit it.

This discussion is so interesting to me. My 15 year old recently came out to me as FTM. Early in my pregnancy (6 weeks or so) I experienced bleeding during an exam, so the doctor had me take progesterone (maybe synthetic, I don't remember) to prevent miscarriage. If it matters, I was 36, and my baby was born 6 weeks early via C-section. With my second child, pregnancy was normal, and there are no signs of trans-ness yet. The cause makes no difference in my love and support of my child, but it's interesting to me. It may also help the grandparents be more accepting.

I don't know about hormones but I was a twin and my mom miscarried my twin.

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Hmm.

Well, for me, I have two older (straight) brothers, both had difficult births if that helps, so there had to be a c-section procedure performed upon both of them. My birth would have been natural, but since my brothers had c-section births, they decided it'd be best for my mother's health if I had a c-section, too.

I was born in 2001. My mother never smoked or drank, but she did eat unhealthily during her pregnancy with me. I'm also exclusively attracted to other men. I wonder how this would all work for me.

I find the science of how we become trans to be fascinating and I hope that some more research comes out soon on sex differentiation and the myriad ways it goes kablooey.

Hugh, what you said about T+DHT receptors vs. T-only receptors is interesting to me. I looked totally female at birth but my brain was masculinized. So your hypothesis would fit my case quite well. I have always wondered how I could have a male brain but no sign of maleness on my body.  :o

I find interesting as well, being that my mother who was sixteen when she got pregnant and was having tons of risky sex (no protection) and it took her 13 months to get pregnant with me. Though she had one questionable six months before me.  Adding in she has a very masculine build (more like a trans woman then cis), and questionable health issues (that she has PCOS).

For me while I don't have proof I have always assumed it was due to her have messed up hormones her own self (though my grandmother is the same way with the same issues). Same reason why my aunt and uncle who are twins are both bi. 

Quote from: momofftm on May 23, 2016, 03:41:43 PM
This discussion is so interesting to me. My 15 year old recently came out to me as FTM. Early in my pregnancy (6 weeks or so) I experienced bleeding during an exam, so the doctor had me take progesterone (maybe synthetic, I don't remember) to prevent miscarriage. If it matters, I was 36, and my baby was born 6 weeks early via C-section. With my second child, pregnancy was normal, and there are no signs of trans-ness yet. The cause makes no difference in my love and support of my child, but it's interesting to me. It may also help the grandparents be more accepting.

Sorry to side track the thread for a moment. I wanted to take a  moment to welcome momofftm to our site. So glad you found some helpful information. I hope we are able to provide you with much.

I also wanted to mention that there is an area here called SO(Significant Others). It is also for support of the family of a trans person. There is an area here your son might find helpful  called  Youth Talk. He could potentially share common stories (or differences)with others his age.

Lastly, I wanted to share some links with you. They are mostly welcome info and the rules of the site. If you have not taken a moment to read through them, please do so:

Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)	Standard Terms & Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)	Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.)
Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html)	News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html)	Photo, avatars, & signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866)

It is so amazing to see parents come on to the site looking for information. It shows the depth of love and commitment we all would want. It is inspirational.

Once again, welcome to Susan's. I hope we can help you find what you are looking for. On behalf of the members, thanks for being the kind of parent you are.

With warmth,

Joanna

PS Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Progestins (synthetic hormones that mimic the action of progesterone) are known to be capable of physically masculinizing a female fetus if exposure to them occurs during the first trimester, so it's only commonsense that they would also be capable of masculinizing the brain.

This is an interview I did recently with Transition Radio:
http://www.transitionradio.net/hugh_easton.html

which is co-hosted by Mark Cummings, a trans man whose mother was given miscarriage treatment with what we think were progestins (I was hoping he'd talk about his experiences a bit more during the interview, but unfortunately he remained quite cagey). The interview is mainly about DES, but there's a segment he included 57 minutes into the interview taken from a video, "Hermaphrodites Speak", of Mani Mitchell, another victim of progestin-induced virilization, who is presenting as female in that segment, but if you see some of the other videos she's done more recently is clearly nonbinary. I had another person who was progestin exposed comment recently on a post on my facebook wall, and from what they said, their gender identity has clearly been affected too. Considering that hardly anyone who's been exposed to these hormone treatments knows anything about it, it makes me think that progestin exposure could be an important cause of FTM transsexuality.

Quote from: Charles96 on May 23, 2016, 10:09:45 PM
For me while I don't have proof I have always assumed it was due to her have messed up hormones her own self (though my grandmother is the same way with the same issues). Same reason why my aunt and uncle who are twins are both bi.

There's already data showing such issues are intergenerational between XX people. No reason to assume that introducing artificial hormones is the only pathway. My maternal grandmother and great grandmother were both tough women with an arm's length attitude towards men. It is in fact possible that grandma got prescribed hormones b/c of a history of miscarriage but the youngest, which she nearly lost (was on bedrest for months), turned out normal fwiw. (He is a jerk. But het cis male and a HS star athlete.) But you wouldn't need drugs to explain my mom, butch and bisexual, or me, on the lesbian/ftm spectrum. (I had no endocrine "abnormalities" on my labs on starting T.)

Let's throw another theory onto the pile. I have noticeable (to me) facial asymmetry. That's a sign of a high number of genetic copy errors (over 300). I've noticed a lot of other FTMs who post videos online also have visible facial asymmetry. (This is also associated with autism spectrum, and ASD ppl are more likely to be trans. Confounder!) Obviously we can all agree the FTM thing happens during fetal development. Maybe some of us have genetic quirks that initiate it?

As far as I am aware, my mother took no hormones during her pregnancy with me. I was her first, and unexpected. I have no idea what her natural hormone levels were like, however. Like me, she has severe PCOS - runs in the family.

Quote from: WorkingOnThomas on May 25, 2016, 03:06:45 AM
As far as I am aware, my mother took no hormones during her pregnancy with me. I was her first, and unexpected. I have no idea what her natural hormone levels were like, however. Like me, she has severe PCOS - runs in the family.

PCOS can be experimentally induced in animals by prenatally exposing them to testosterone, the same hormone that masculinizes the brain, e.g. see:

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2005-2757

QuoteStudies have shown that female rhesus monkeys exposed in utero to levels of testosterone equivalent to those found in fetal males develop clinical and biochemical features in adult life resembling those observed in women with PCOS.

Since you have both PCOS and a male gender identity, that's a good indication that you had some kind of androgen exposure during your prenatal development, which has both given you a male brain and led to you developing PCOS. Since you say no hormones were used and PCOS appears to run in your family, maybe your family have some kind of genetic predisposition to producing high androgen levels. Who knows. I'm not saying that pharmaceutical hormones are the only cause of transsexuality, just that administering external hormones during pregnancy is one of the things that can do it, and this isn't being taken into account in current medical practice.

Interesting! I don't really care about the WHY of my own trans-ness but this thread has been an interesting read.
As for me: I was born in 1970 and was was my mother's first (as far as I know) pregnancy.

Yes, my mother had miscarriages before, and after, me. To my knowledge though she was not "trying" for a child. I was an accident, as my father so nicely put it - but she also claimed she was on birth control pills, and insists she hadn't forgotten to take any in the schedule, which also makes me a bit of a "miracle", apparently. She says she was on no other medication. So essentially she didn't want to be pregnant and wasn't feeling particularly broody at the time. My father's accident comment is consistent with this.

Female hormones should not though - far as I know lead to masculinization of a female fetus in the same was as certain substances are know to in a male fetus.

What I do know though, is that just prior to, and during her pregnancy with me, she was experiencing a turbulent life. She was only 20 years old, a big party goer and drinker, and had just been turned out of her family's house for some reason and was occasionally sleeping in a car before her older brother stepped in to help. She and my father had a very brief marriage, marked by some savage fights and disagreements. Various family members mentioned how she was "very stressed" at this time, in different conversations. As a person she is quite petite and feminine-looking, but had a raging bull personality, was a violent and aggressive person when drunk, particularly in the younger years. I would not be surprised if this "stress" caused or was caused by hormonal imbalances because she certainly has a more masculine than feminine personality. Hormonal imbalances that could well have led to my digits having the typical "straight male" ratio length, and my current trans condition. 

It's definitely not nurture or some kind of imitation, as I've had a lifelong loathing for her aggressive behavior and never considered it acceptable.

I'm always torn between wanting to know what causes us to be transgender, and afraid that if we knew it would invite some kind of eugenics, and that people who truly felt trans would be rejected because they fail a medical test for whatever cause is found...

I've been thinking about this for a while. If being intersex and transgender are both caused by hormone imbalances during development of the fetus, that makes them pretty similar, right? In the case where someone's gender is binary, an intersex person will have sort of mixed genitals (from what I gather), while a trans person completely has the body of the opposite sex. This would imply that there's a scale, with cis being at one end, trans (with binary gender) at the other end, and intersex in between. Not only does this mean that the cause of being trans is biological, it also implies that it's just a more extreme version, or the next step, after intersex. What do you guys think of this?

Couldn't tell you what CAUSED me to be trans, just I know the symptoms were partly always there my entire life.

I don't know if anything during pregnancy affected it, my mother was pretty vague about the time before and during my birth. All I know is before me she had an abortion, which she regrets and therefore is an advocate against it. I ended up being the first child by C-Section. Can't recall why, if at all. Wouldn't know if she was pumped with any type of hormone to help the process either.

Quote from: momofftm on May 23, 2016, 03:41:43 PM
This discussion is so interesting to me. My 15 year old recently came out to me as FTM. Early in my pregnancy (6 weeks or so) I experienced bleeding during an exam, so the doctor had me take progesterone (maybe synthetic, I don't remember) to prevent miscarriage. If it matters, I was 36, and my baby was born 6 weeks early via C-section. With my second child, pregnancy was normal, and there are no signs of trans-ness yet. The cause makes no difference in my love and support of my child, but it's interesting to me. It may also help the grandparents be more accepting.

As a child who's mother is completely flustered, bewildered, and angry about my nature, thank you for looking into it as much as you have. Seriously, thank you for being a good parent to your child, on behalf of all ftm's such as myself. Not all of us get love and support and I'm happy that there are others out there like me that do, despite how difficult it all is to wrap one's head around, trans or not.

Quote from: spacerace on February 11, 2015, 10:56:47 AM


-people are trans for all kinds of reasons...but those reasons are undoubtedly rooted in biological brain development influenced by hormones (hormones generally, not just hormones given to pregnant women).  I find this information empowering, personally, instead of a denial of identity. We are all who we are because of the biological make up of our brains, trans or not.

Aye, I actually wasn't considering being transgender before I knew about the biological facts of sex, male and female. Once I began recognizing I had these feelings I found they were legitimate and not just 'a costume for fun' identity and were supporting in some stance of factual support.

Quoted and bolded for truth, it's my favorite line to see on here

I am glad to run across this article. My mom did take the drugs and I was more male looking at birth, which they fixed, grrr and I also have a male brain. I am just happy to finally find others that actually have this problem. I would be FTM except that because of past abuse i can't stand the way the male genitalia looks. But ya I was a total tomboy growing up. progestin induced virilization is a real condition.  I hate to disappoint those who wish to discount intersexxed conditions but we do exist and I am one of them.

Not sure about if she was on hormones with me but I did just text her and asked lol so I'll let you know if she was.
Other than that possibility my mom had 4 other kids before me between us (so kid 1&2, 2&3 and so forth) there was only a 2 year or 4 year difference between her pregnancies.
My brother closest in age to me is gay and I thought I was gay too until I learned about being trans so maybe that could be it?
You also mentioned stress and well my mom got a divorce while pregnant with my brother (the one mentioned above) and then 4 years later had me with the same guy she had just divorced so I'm sure that was stressful lol. My dad is not an easy person to deal with and can be self centered and from what my siblings have implied and from what I've seen he was a donkeys backside to my mom so even more stress.

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My mother didn't have miscarriages before me or take any synthetic hormones.. but I will say that I work in a closed door pharmacy as a pharmacy technician and are required to label all hormones with 'Do Not Touch If Pregnant' stickers because of the 'potential' of the fetus exhibits signs of the opposite sex (ie a male fetus while taking estrogen).. it's more of a speculation than for sure fact because you won't find this written on the bottle. Had never even heard of it until a pharmacist told me

I just remembered something from childhood while thinking about hormones - when I was 7 I found a bottle of birth control pills apparently (this is on the edge of my memory, all I remember is that they were all bright pink and looked like smarties) on my mother's dressing cabinet. Somehow I opened the (child proof) bottle and ate every single one.

I remember my mother calling the doctor and the doctor being pretty blase about it and saying it would have no effect and not to worry. I guess he was right because nothing did appear to happen. I was also not one of those kids who entered puberty early. I was 17 when I did, which is pretty late.

I doubt it had any effects on me regards trans but I suppose you never know. Female hormones not likely to produce any FTM, which is what they were. In the years since, whoever made these tablets saw sense and decided not to make them look like candy.  ::)

The stress was on my end and had nothing to do with my mom's pregnancy. Those drugs do have a documented effect on female fetus. There was some babies that actually were labeled male and raised that way. They are finding out that a lot of things can affect babies in the womb including stress. To think that hormones that are chemically similar to testrone not having a effect on a female fetus when ftm take it is being totally naive. As one pointed out there are articles on the effect it has on rats and monkeys. Not all transgenders are a result of hormones but if chemicals or nature can make the body look different why would the brain be exempt from it?

In regard to being intersexxed and transgender. In the usa someone intersexxed is not considered to be transgender if they are dissatisfied with their assigned gender because of the very fact that we are intersexxed. In other words we are just dissatisfied customers lol.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on June 29, 2016, 02:23:17 PM
I just remembered something from childhood while thinking about hormones - when I was 7 I found a bottle of birth control pills apparently (this is on the edge of my memory, all I remember is that they were all bright pink and looked like smarties) on my mother's dressing cabinet. Somehow I opened the (child proof) bottle and ate every single one.

I remember my mother calling the doctor and the doctor being pretty blase about it and saying it would have no effect and not to worry. I guess he was right because nothing did appear to happen. I was also not one of those kids who entered puberty early. I was 17 when I did, which is pretty late.

I doubt it had any effects on me regards trans but I suppose you never know. Female hormones not likely to produce any FTM, which is what they were. In the years since, whoever made these tablets saw sense and decided not to make them look like candy.  ::)

Yes, you probably didn't suffer any long term effects from an exposure at 7 years old. Hormones have two distinct types of effect depending on when in your life you're exposed to them. There's an "organizational" phase starting about 6 weeks after conception and ending a few months after birth, when hormones can (among other things) affect your brain development in ways that have large, permanent effects on personality, behaviour, gender identity, your whole core sense of who you are as a person. Once the organizational phase has ended, hormones have "activational" effects instead. Basically they bring to life all the stuff that was laid down during the organizational phase, and transform you from a child into an adult man or woman. Normally, once the organizational period has ended, your hormone levels remain low throughout infancy and childhood, and it's not until puberty that they rise to a high level again. However, a one off exposure during childhood probably wouldn't have any permanent effects.

If your mother had downed a bottle of pills while pregnant with you, it'd be a whole different story though, since the exposure would be occurring during the organizational period. There would be permanent effects (exactly which things affected depending on how far into your prenatal development the exposure occurred).

Quote from: Kanzaki on June 25, 2016, 06:54:41 AM
I've been thinking about this for a while. If being intersex and transgender are both caused by hormone imbalances during development of the fetus, that makes them pretty similar, right? In the case where someone's gender is binary, an intersex person will have sort of mixed genitals (from what I gather), while a trans person completely has the body of the opposite sex. This would imply that there's a scale, with cis being at one end, trans (with binary gender) at the other end, and intersex in between. Not only does this mean that the cause of being trans is biological, it also implies that it's just a more extreme version, or the next step, after intersex. What do you guys think of this?

I think intersex and transgender both have the same underlying cause: abnormal hormone levels during the time your prenatal development is taking place, and the seemingly different outcomes are just the result of the hormone disruption having occurred early in your prenatal development (intersex), or during its later stages (transgender). Genital development takes place during a relatively narrow window starting 7 weeks after conception and ending during week 12, so exposure to external hormones after that point won't have much effect on the appearance of the genitals. However, brain development is ongoing throughout the pregnancy, and the second half of the pregnancy seems to be particularly important as far as sex differences in the brain are concerned. So hormone disruption at any time during your prenatal development can potentially affect the sex of your brain, with the effects likely to be particularly pronounced if it occurs during the second half of the pregnancy.

Quote from: HughE on June 29, 2016, 06:40:29 PM
I think intersex and transgender both have the same underlying cause: abnormal hormone levels during the time your prenatal development is taking place, and the seemingly different outcomes are just the result of the hormone disruption having occurred early in your prenatal development (intersex), or during its later stages (transgender). Genital development takes place during a relatively narrow window starting 7 weeks after conception and ending during week 12, so exposure to external hormones after that point won't have much effect on the appearance of the genitals. However, brain development is ongoing throughout the pregnancy, and the second half of the pregnancy seems to be particularly important as far as sex differences in the brain are concerned. So hormone disruption at any time during your prenatal development can potentially affect the sex of your brain, with the effects likely to be particularly pronounced if it occurs during the second half of the pregnancy.

I tend to agree I also think they are linked and have the same underlying causes as well.

This is a really interesting thread! My mom miscarried before me and I'm not certain that they put her on anything but I'm going to ask her. I was born earlier than expected but not too much earlier. She's told me that when she was pregnant with my brother she nearly lost him several times. There was something going on (and I can't remember what exactly it is off the top of my head) but her blood is whatever blood type and negative which complicates things. I've always thought even since I was little that something went wrong. I just didn't know that how I felt happened to other people too until I was in my early thirties.

It is possible Silver Centurion. As for a update. I talked to my dad. Yes she took the drug for sure and it was the worst one the one that is the most similar to testosterone chemically. There is also a good chance that she took DES along with it IF she did her body would have said opps to much estrogen and converted to, guess what, progesterone because that is what happens during pregnancy. My father also confirmed that my urethra not aligned like a female at birth. To be honest i am still larger then most fTM when they have been taking the hormones.  I am tempted to go all the way like one person like me who had a similar diagnosis. He became a male. I just have a couple of problems i can't stand the way males look down there because of the abuse i suffered. The other is that for a male i would be a midget.

I think this is a interesting topic to speculate but ultimately, we just feel the way we do imo. Although, I read somewhere that naturally we are found with a lot of testosterone for our anatomical bodies and that is what causes us to feel/be masculine. My mom had a miscarriage before me , it was predicted to be a male.

Interesting topic. I was a tomboy as a kid. I played hockey and easily build muscle. I was an outdoor kid. Always outside playing with boys. Until I became a teen and was suddenly alone. I did not fit anywhere.

I don't know if my mom had hormones while pregnant. But she told me she put cute dresses and hats on me as a toddler and I screamed until she took them off.

Quote from: MeTonie on February 21, 2017, 01:06:38 PM
Interesting topic. I was a tomboy as a kid. I played hockey and easily build muscle. I was an outdoor kid. Always outside playing with boys. Until I became a teen and was suddenly alone. I did not fit anywhere.

I don't know if my mom had hormones while pregnant. But she told me she put cute dresses and hats on me as a toddler and I screamed until she took them off.

Same here, My mom says she knew i was a boy because when i was 4 she tried putting me in a skirt and i wouldnt put it on and always drove her to the boys clothin section. I dont even remeber when I was 4 lol. At 5, i had a crush on my kindergarten teacher. I feel like we were almost born as men sometimes.

I'm not sure if my mom ever took anything when she was pregnant but I know that I was a gigantic baby (10lbs). She had to be induced, actually, because I went two weeks past my due date.

And, falling in line with what others here have said, both of my parents knew something was 'off' when I hit age three. Mom in particular said I adamantly rejected wearing 'girly' things and gravitated towards the 'boy' section in stores.
I was an only child (first and last attempt, so no miscarriages either) and my mom was fairly young at age 20 when she got pregnant.
There was no doubt in my mind that I was a boy growing up. The only thing that finally broke my spirit was hitting puberty.

For your research!

My mom did not take any hormone based medication that I know of, her entire life.
But she did have high androgen (beard growth, more body hair, lower voice, more acné). I have the same things. However due to hormonal balance she also suffered from emotional instability and more severe mood changes than usually women do.

I do suspect that the high amount of androgen might have something to do with me being FTM, but she never had any discomfort with her gender.

Quote from: Stone Magnum on February 21, 2017, 02:44:20 PM
I'm not sure if my mom ever took anything when she was pregnant but I know that I was a gigantic baby (10lbs). She had to be induced, actually, because I went two weeks past my due date.

I was a very large baby too. I don't remember the weight but everyone always talked about how oddly big I was and how long it took to get me out. My mother was also only 20 when she had me. I wonder if the stress of her lifestyle, her family problems and living with my father had anything to do with some or all of it.

Another weird thing about me was that when they did get me out I didn't make a sound. They thought there might have been something up with me because I didn't cry slept far more than a baby was supposed to or something like that. In the end they accepted I liked to spend a lot of time asleep in the first year.

My parents seemed to accept a lot of things about me and never apparently noticed they were strange. The downside of this "acceptance" was when I was old enough to tell them I was depressed, and stuff was wrong, they just kind of ignored it.

There is a group on facebook if you are more interested for those that suspect it to be hormone based it is a closed one and the name is DES: Society of Sons and Daughters (So Sad). There is a article on the progesterone that my mom probably took and it confirms that intersex people like me will have gender identity problems it is found on  https://www.facebook.com/notes/protect-the-unborn-child-from-synthetic-hormones/intersexuality-caused-by-progestin-exposure/1632158097087158 Intersexuality caused by progestin exposure PROTECT THE UNBORN CHILD FROM SYNTHETIC HORMONES·TUESDAY, JANUARY 3, 2017 Synthethic hormones apparently can also have a effect on bio males as well as far as gender identity goes.

This is fascinating to read. Like several others here I am a child born after my mom had a miscarriage and, similar at least to one (or more?) of us, it was a boy. Questions regarding any hormones she took while pregnant with me will have to wait but it has given me a lot to mull over.

I am going to be brutally honest. I am on this site because my child who is 3 has always said she is a boy. She has severe dysphoria and in order for her to cope we have transitioned her socially into a boy. I came across an article one day looking for what may cause someone to be transgender. Me and my husband have 5 children, 4 daughter's (9, 6, 4, 3(trans) and one son who is 9 months old). I came across a bunch of blogs and posts insinuating progestin seemed to be a factor for the developing fetus resulting in someone being transgender. It had never entered my mind until I realized that for my trans child I had been on a progestin only birth control pill. I did not know I was pregnant at the time so was continuing to take my pills and would also triple up on doses which many do incase you forgot to take your pills or wanted to use them as a "plan b" which helps to bring a period and potentially shed an unwanted pregnancy. :( (horrible I know). I unknowingly had gotten pregnant not long after with my son (9 months) and was also taking the same pills and tripling the dose. I hope he's okay but we won't truly know until he is older. :( Now reading other peoples comments and stories it seems to make sense. Progestin is used for so many things such as a way to chemically castrate sex offenders or used in abortion pills and birth control pills so don't sit there and tell people it doesn't have any effects on a developing fetus!!! I have researched so much on this topic and every scientific conclusion ends with "there is no substantial research on this topic"!!!!?!? I also researched hormone levels in drinking water to which it is confirmed that species are actually changing genders. They admit that people are taking hormones (birth control etc) and it is expelled through our urine resulting in large amounts of hormones in the water we drink and only building up. They have no way to filter the hormones out and here we are ingesting all these different medications and I'm sorry yes transgender people have been around along time but in the last 50 years it seems to be increasing SUBSTANTIALLY! I do not believe it's because people are more comfortable and feel like coming out (in some cases yes) but something is seriously wrong. These hormone pills have only been around a few decades so really we know nothing about them and the impacts they have. THERE NEEDS TO BE AN INQUIRY AND RESEARCH DONE ON THIS TOPIC!!! I posted this to a few parents of transgender children groups and many more parents have come forward. This is ridiculous and the truth needs to come out!

I know the likely reason I'm nonbinary, and partially transmale; I was conceived three months after my brother was born.

I absorbed male hormones from the womb, as often happens with animals as well, say when a female puppy is born with all brothers.

I have both female and male modes, but right now I'm more blended, due to taking derris scandens, a common herb here in Thailand.

I know that I've not been exposed to any kind of medication my mother took before or while she was pregnant with me.  I was born five years after my sister. No unusual events at all.

Plus my mother and I were born and raised in the country side with water being provided from a spring. And that water was many thousands of years old because it trickled through and was filtered by nearby mountains. No external hormones likely to have been in that water supply.

Quote from: Clabelle3333 on July 14, 2017, 12:58:53 AM
I am going to be brutally honest.

In my own brutal honesty, I do not think any of this is true.

As Dan says, hormones are not present in our drinking water everywhere. Also, plenty of mothers of transgender individuals did not take any hormones during pregnancy or before.

Xenoestrogen is present in our drinking water and many of the products we consume (this mostly due to the type of packaging products come in, like tin cans, plastic bottles). Undoubtedly this has SOME effect on our general health but there is no research in this field that I´ve ever heard of.

If xenoestrogens were accountable for ->-bleeped-<-, then there is no way to explain ->-bleeped-<- in "primitive" cultures (where they historically already had cultures where people shifted between roles, or lived as the "opposite" sex for the entirety of their lives). Also, it would not explain BOTH the transfemale and the transmale inclination. If anything, you´d think that xenoestrogen would cause someone to be transfemale but not transmale.

Your theory is interesting but you can´t just assume causal relationships where there are none.

Quote from: Raell on July 14, 2017, 02:27:07 AM
I absorbed male hormones from the womb, as often happens with animals as well, say when a female puppy is born with all brothers.

This seems more plausible to me. My mother had hirsutism and more signs of having a high level of androgens in her system, but never felt nonbinary or trans. She felt female. However I think the high level of androgens did affect me in my own development. I also have only male cousins and brothers.

I am first child. I am ftm. I have a brother and a sister. They are not transgender. I don't know if my mom used birth control pills before I was born, but I guess so.

My oldest son is genderfluid. I have not had birth control pills before he was born. I did have a hormon spiral (???) a plastic hormon thing looking like a T in my womb to prevent pregnancies after he was born. I took it out 3 years later and had another boy. He has not said anything about being transgender or genderfluid. He is a boy. Simply as that.

In my case, I was not conceived by natural methods. My father had cancer, and became infertile because of the treatment. So I was conceived by insemination, the donor was german and we don't know anything from him aside from partially his family clinical history, as is normal in a sperm bank.

My mother went under treatment and all those things to get pregnant, including hormonal treatment of course (though she didn't tell me exactly which meds and so); but she says that she didn't take anything while already pregnant. It was a high-risk pregnancy, she is O- and I'm A+. She had many aches and pains throught the pregnancy, and I was born one month earlier by C-section. She also went under a lot of stress, I'm pretty sure about that; before, during and after the pregnancy. She was married to a guy (my non-biological father) she was always arguing and fighting with ever since I remember, just until last year they finally got divorced (although he has lived somewhere else for about 8 years); she got married only for convenience, that's what says at least. And she was always stressed.

About me, well, I didn't know I was trans until like two years ago, when I was 16. I think it has to be a lot with my strange social behavior and such, since I've been always kinda unconfortable around people and rather lonely. It doesn't matter if it's boys or girls, it makes me anxious. Though I always related more to the boys, and I remember that when I was pretty little I used to look at catalogs of children's clothing, I wanted boys' clothes (and, more important, to look like them), and I thought that the girls only put on dresses and pink clothes for their parents to love them. But I didn't know anything about trans-ness existence until I was 16 (and I discovered I was that).

Anyway, about that, my father's girlfriend says that I remind her a lot of a relative of hers who has Asperger, and I have a lot of reasons to believe that I have Asperger too. I've read that autism spectrum is pretty common between trans folks, I really wonder why and what is its relation to trans-ness. And I wonder too if I was more of a normal person (in regards to my weird social behavior and anxiety), I would had realized earlier that I am trans.

And returning with the biological things (?), I have two younger sisters, non-identical twins (different placenta) who where conceived the same way as me (even the same donor) but to the date, they're pretty "normal" (no signs of any kind of autism or trans-ness), though one of them claims to be bisexual (I don't want to sound rude or anything, but I'm not that sure; she's 15, I know ger and sometimes it seems that "she is bi" mostly out of fashion).

My mother had a miscarriage some years ago (maybe 4), she said that they were triplets. I didn't know in the moment, she told me later on. Though we don't know the sex of the babies. I think the miscarriage was due to smoking, and I know that she took birth control pills (not quite sure about the exact times, though I think she took them while pregnant; though she didn't know she was going to have babies until too late) and that she had several hormonal imbalances and she had to stop taking them.

And she had one baby girl 7 months ago. This last two pregnancy were natural, no insemination or anything.

Quote from: Clabelle3333 on July 14, 2017, 12:58:53 AM
I am going to be brutally honest. I am on this site because my child who is 3 has always said she is a boy. She has severe dysphoria and in order for her to cope we have transitioned her socially into a boy. I came across an article one day looking for what may cause someone to be transgender. Me and my husband have 5 children, 4 daughter's (9, 6, 4, 3(trans) and one son who is 9 months old). I came across a bunch of blogs and posts insinuating progestin seemed to be a factor for the developing fetus resulting in someone being transgender. It had never entered my mind until I realized that for my trans child I had been on a progestin only birth control pill. I did not know I was pregnant at the time so was continuing to take my pills and would also triple up on doses which many do incase you forgot to take your pills or wanted to use them as a "plan b" which helps to bring a period and potentially shed an unwanted pregnancy. :( (horrible I know). I unknowingly had gotten pregnant not long after with my son (9 months) and was also taking the same pills and tripling the dose. I hope he's okay but we won't truly know until he is older. :( Now reading other peoples comments and stories it seems to make sense. Progestin is used for so many things such as a way to chemically castrate sex offenders or used in abortion pills and birth control pills so don't sit there and tell people it doesn't have any effects on a developing fetus!!! I have researched so much on this topic and every scientific conclusion ends with "there is no substantial research on this topic"!!!!?!? I also researched hormone levels in drinking water to which it is confirmed that species are actually changing genders. They admit that people are taking hormones (birth control etc) and it is expelled through our urine resulting in large amounts of hormones in the water we drink and only building up. They have no way to filter the hormones out and here we are ingesting all these different medications and I'm sorry yes transgender people have been around along time but in the last 50 years it seems to be increasing SUBSTANTIALLY! I do not believe it's because people are more comfortable and feel like coming out (in some cases yes) but something is seriously wrong. These hormone pills have only been around a few decades so really we know nothing about them and the impacts they have. THERE NEEDS TO BE AN INQUIRY AND RESEARCH DONE ON THIS TOPIC!!! I posted this to a few parents of transgender children groups and many more parents have come forward. This is ridiculous and the truth needs to come out!

Hi and welcome to the site.

Thanks for sharing such personal and researched instances. I do tend to think the fact that more people are accepting and not abusing or killing transgender people makes an atmosphere where those of us (who tend to be very skiddish) are willing to "come out". Maybe there is chemistry involved as well.

There is a section here for significant others. It is not just for romantic SO. We have many members that are siblings and parents as well. You might find some additional people in similar situations to talk to. We also have a category on the site for trans members under 18 to share experiences. Your son is a little young but maybe if they want more resources in the future, it can be of help.

I also want to share some links with you. They are mostly welcome information and the rules that govern the site. If you have not had a chance to look through them, please take a moment:

Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)	Standard Terms & Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)	Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.)
Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html)	News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html)	Photo, avatars, & signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866)

Once again, welcome to Susan's. Look around, ask questions and join in.

With warmth,

Joanna

Welcome to Susan's Place Clabelle3333. It is possible for us to be transgender without exposure to an outside chemical. In my case, I was conceived in 1950 and while DES (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,84224.0.html) was widely prescribed, I was born just shy of a year after my parents were married so it's unlikely my mother was given DES. Progesterone is similar in some ways to testosterone so it is possible that it could cause the birth of a FTM but it's unlikely to affect a male child.

I will never know for sure why I ended up transgender but many years when my testosterone levels were checked, they measured in the low male range. It's possible that I just didn't produce sufficient testosterone to masculinize my brain. It's also possible that the mother or the child can produce excessive testosterone resulting in a FTM so it's not possible to say if this happened because of the pills you were taking or it happened naturally.

Quote from: CodexUmbrae on July 14, 2017, 02:54:40 PM

About me, well, I didn't know I was trans until like two years ago, when I was 16. I think it has to be a lot with my strange social behavior and such, since I've been always kinda unconfortable around people and rather lonely. It doesn't matter if it's boys or girls, it makes me anxious. Though I always related more to the boys, and I remember that when I was pretty little I used to look at catalogs of children's clothing, I wanted boys' clothes (and, more important, to look like them), and I thought that the girls only put on dresses and pink clothes for their parents to love them. But I didn't know anything about trans-ness existence until I was 16 (and I discovered I was that).

Just want to chime in, being able to transition really helps with confidence and social anxiety, at least in my case it did. Granted, its not the only thing, and sometimes opening up and being around others takes considerable effort and learning to adjust your behavior, emotion, etc.

That said though, it does help. My suspicion is that the confusion and dysphoria, even though you didnt know about it, is innately part of what keeps you distant from others as much, you dont feel yourself when youre around them, theyre not really associating with you in what naturally feels right.

With time, transition may readjust and help your social standing by building your confidence and comfort in yourself. There's also other effort you have to do but those are if you really want to change intentionally.

Quote from: Clabelle3333 on July 14, 2017, 12:58:53 AM

You probably should start referring to your daughter as your son if you wish to support your child as he transitions, trans children suffer a lot with the discomfort they feel, and if the parents help them through it as they grow it makes it easier.

Understandably, youre likely worried about how much your child is going to suffer or be 'abnormal' because of something that happened, but being transgender itself is not wrong or bad, just strange and different from a majority (you did have three others, and he was the only trans one), your other son is not highly  likely to be trans.
Your post comes off as very worried about it as if it is an illness, while in a way it can be, if you treat your son as any less because he feels differently, he'll know and you'll cause an unstable environment for him. You should be happy that he wants to be happy.



I agree more research could be done on those things, if you can prevent someone from being transgender before their birth (not after) I agree it should be done. However, that's not to say those things are the root or only cause. In my case, my mother did not take any chemicals that would cause such a thing, I'm not really sure what caused my own shift, all I know is my own hormonal levels were off, so sometimes it may just be an anomaly in development, not something the mother took or did.

Quote from: Clabelle3333 on July 14, 2017, 12:58:53 AM
I am going to be brutally honest. I am on this site because my child who is 3 has always said she is a boy. She has severe dysphoria and in order for her to cope we have transitioned her socially into a boy. I came across an article one day looking for what may cause someone to be transgender. Me and my husband have 5 children, 4 daughter's (9, 6, 4, 3(trans) and one son who is 9 months old). I came across a bunch of blogs and posts insinuating progestin seemed to be a factor for the developing fetus resulting in someone being transgender. It had never entered my mind until I realized that for my trans child I had been on a progestin only birth control pill. I did not know I was pregnant at the time so was continuing to take my pills and would also triple up on doses which many do incase you forgot to take your pills or wanted to use them as a "plan b" which helps to bring a period and potentially shed an unwanted pregnancy. :( (horrible I know). I unknowingly had gotten pregnant not long after with my son (9 months) and was also taking the same pills and tripling the dose. I hope he's okay but we won't truly know until he is older. :( Now reading other peoples comments and stories it seems to make sense. Progestin is used for so many things such as a way to chemically castrate sex offenders or used in abortion pills and birth control pills so don't sit there and tell people it doesn't have any effects on a developing fetus!!! I have researched so much on this topic and every scientific conclusion ends with "there is no substantial research on this topic"!!!!?!? I also researched hormone levels in drinking water to which it is confirmed that species are actually changing genders. They admit that people are taking hormones (birth control etc) and it is expelled through our urine resulting in large amounts of hormones in the water we drink and only building up. They have no way to filter the hormones out and here we are ingesting all these different medications and I'm sorry yes transgender people have been around along time but in the last 50 years it seems to be increasing SUBSTANTIALLY! I do not believe it's because people are more comfortable and feel like coming out (in some cases yes) but something is seriously wrong. These hormone pills have only been around a few decades so really we know nothing about them and the impacts they have. THERE NEEDS TO BE AN INQUIRY AND RESEARCH DONE ON THIS TOPIC!!! I posted this to a few parents of transgender children groups and many more parents have come forward. This is ridiculous and the truth needs to come out!

I wholeheartedly agree, there does need to be an impartial inquiry of some kind involving people who aren't connected to the medical or pharmaceutical industry.

To start with, there are literally millions of nominally male people alive today who were prenatally exposed to artificial female hormones (DES and progestins), in doses that would cause profound testosterone suppression in an adult man if he were to be given the same. If they have the same T-suppressing effect on an unborn male baby as they do on an adult man (and why wouldn't they?), then this is a big problem, since brain masculinization is driven through the action of testosterone. The one study of DES and gender that's ever been conducted found that 150 out of 500 DES "sons" participating in the study had a female gender identity, a rate of ->-bleeped-<- that must be hundreds of times higher than in the unexposed population. No comparable research appears to have been done on progestins, but I have found a paper (Aarskog, D. (1970). Clinical and cytogenetic studies in hypospadias. Acta Paediat. Scand. 203 : 1.) in which progestin exposure was identified as a cause of hypospadias, which is a form of intersex.

I've also found several case studies in which two first generation progestins (ethisterone and norethisterone) were shown to have had the opposite effect, of inducing male development in female babies. As with DES effects on biological males, the whole thing was swept under the rug and I haven't been able to find any estimates of the total number of people exposed. However, these two hormones were commonly co-prescribed alongside DES in the 1950s and 60's, and since the total number of people exposed to DES is in the region of 10 million, the numbers exposed to these two progestins is probably quite large as well.

A couple of weeks ago I was chatting to someone (AFAB) whose mother was given DES and a progestin in tablet form, which from her age and the fact it was a pill, means it was almost certainly ethisterone or norethisterone. Although she's currently presenting as female, from what she was saying, it certainly sounded like she'd had quite a lot of male brain development, and would transition except her personal circumstances won't allow it.

Ethisterone has long since fallen by the wayside, however norethisterone (as norethisterone acetate) was the most commonly used progestin in birth control pills in the 1980s, and is still used in some birth control formulations and as a drug in its own right.

An interesting fact I recently discovered, is that both DES and ethisterone have both seen use in aquaculture (i.e. fish farming) as sex change hormones, to produce all female or all male fish populations. If newly hatched fish fry are exposed to the appropriate dose of DES, they will all turn into females, irrespective of what their genes say. If they're instead exposed to ethisterone, they will all turn into males. These are two of the same hormones that were used in human pregnancies for miscarriage prevention!

Ethinylestradiol, a manmade estrogen that's commonly used in birth control pills, is such a potent feminizing hormone to fish, that the tiny traces of it making it through the sewage treatment process are causing intersex in male fish throughout Europe and America's waterways.

Here's a collection of scientific papers, articles and news stories I've found, where medical hormone exposure has resulted in intersexuality or ->-bleeped-<-:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/AYuZRE

[I think there's also a couple of articles in there about Primodos, an estrogen-progestin combination pill similar to a high dose birth control pill, which was originally marketed as a way of testing whether a woman was pregnant, and later sold in third world countries as an abortion pill. Exposure to it generally happened very early in the pregnancy before the process of sexual development gets underway, and instead of causing abnormalities of sexual development, it's caused similar abnormalities to those that were seen with thalidomide (missing limbs etc). Once again, the pharmaceutical industry has walked away from the whole thing scot free.]

I was an anthropology major in college, and one of the classes we had to take was a genetics class (study of the genetic history of humans is a major part of modern anthropology). In that class we were presented with studies on the cause of transgender. From the evidence presented, I'm convinced that for the majority of us (85 percent is estimated), being trans is entirely due to the presence of testosterone during the 11th week of pregnancy(FtM), or the lack of it (MtF). And there is some evidence that it has nothing to do with the mom, what she took, or her own hormonal issues, but rather the source is usually the fetus itself. In most cases, though, it's not genetic, but rather just and "accident of nature."

The other 15 percent could be a number of other factors, including other hormones, genetics, environmental effects (chemicals?) or nurture (abuse, acculturation, whatever). I personally doubt it's any kind of progesterone, since that's a normal pregnancy hormone. Even if it is a man-made progesterone.

In my own case, my body was already semi-masculinized, pre-T. I have no hips, strong shoulders, a typical male hairline, I store my fat in my belly area, big thick muscular legs, and ANY amount of exercise bulks me up like a guy. On not quite two months of T, I already have notable bulking of my biceps, deltoids and pecs, WITHOUT working out. It's apparent testosterone had it's way with my body map early on (5th week of pregnancy is when T/E organizes the body) and therefore is likely it also affected my brain wiring 6 weeks later.

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on July 15, 2017, 12:00:18 AM
Just want to chime in, being able to transition really helps with confidence and social anxiety, at least in my case it did. Granted, its not the only thing, and sometimes opening up and being around others takes considerable effort and learning to adjust your behavior, emotion, etc.

That said though, it does help. My suspicion is that the confusion and dysphoria, even though you didnt know about it, is innately part of what keeps you distant from others as much, you dont feel yourself when youre around them, theyre not really associating with you in what naturally feels right.

With time, transition may readjust and help your social standing by building your confidence and comfort in yourself. There's also other effort you have to do but those are if you really want to change intentionally.

Nice to hear, maybe it will work out for me too. It would be nice to not feel anxious every time someone comes to talk to me. xD

Now that you say it, it probably has much to be with the anxiety and feeling so distant from others. When I was like 4, I remember to watch the other children from a distance and think that they were all weird; at that age, I thought that the other ones were the weird ones, not me. Very few years later on, that changed, of course.

I hope so. And yeah, I will probably hace to put a lot of effort, but well, life itself requires a lot of effort anyway.

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk

I'm going to admit that I did not take the time to go back and read every post in this thread so excuse me if I am not adding anything new or if I am repeating info.

There is always a lot of talk and science behind anatomy and hormones. I am certain there is something to that. I think the answer is in our brains though. Unfortunately, that is the aspect of the human body we know the least about. I look at it like computer coding. A set of code is created to tell a machine to do this or that. And conversely to not do that or this. For those of us that are trans it is as if our physical bodies were given one set of coding while our brains were given another. The coding was inputted incorrectly for us. It's like the programmer was working a late night and got tired.

Instead of asking what makes people trans it should be what makes people cis? Only then can you unravel the mystery. I was born female and had normal estrogen levels. So hormones don't give me any answers. It is what is in my brain. The wrinkles and folds in it. The signals and synapses flaring inside of it. The information and messaging that it is sending to my mind, body, and soul. That's where the answers are.

Just adding my two cents, I'm definitely not an example of drugs of any kind. My parents conceived me naturally. I was the 5th conception in a long line of miscarriages. My mother's issue was an overactive or open pelvis (that's how she explained it to me long ago) fetuses basically just kept sliding out before their date. However no drugs were ever given to her  -the only reason I made it is because she went on bedrest w/her legs at an angle for the entire pregnancy. The miscarriage before me was too young to tell the sex so it's entirely possible (since I was conceived right after unplanned at that bc of the timeframe) that it was a male and some hormones lingered that affected me. I always thought that to be the most succinct reason for my being trans.

Don't know of any drugs that my mother took before/during her pregnancy with me, but I DO know my mum had at least two miscarriages before she had me - as well as one before she had my brother (who is 5 years older than me).