I had the unfortunate pleasure of meeting a gal who essentially disqualified who I was as a person with a few statements in regards to me revealing to her that I was a Two Spirit MTF Transgender Person. She said I cannot be both. She then went on a rant about how long she dealt with erasing her male self and then didn't have much to say to me afterwards. I tried to explain it further, but she was having none of it. This is the first time I have run into someone in the bay area who reacted this way.
Those who think they know it all, have a lot to learn. Tomorrow is a new day, be who you want and wear sunglasses darling.
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The only person that you actually have to be is yourself
For some people, if you haven't gone through what they have gone through they're not remotely interested in you. If that's their attitude then I'm not remotely interested in them!
Stuck-up tramp, that's all she was.
Quote from: Ms Grace on February 17, 2015, 09:28:17 PM
For some people, if you haven't gone through what they have gone through they're not remotely interested in you. If that's their attitude then I'm not remotely interested in them!
Yeah I find this happening with quite a few people I meet. I for one enjoy hearing about diversity and a life I did not live. Getting other peoples perception has always been a conscious thought of mine.
If Two spirit people don't exist, then why is it an accepted term amongst the First Nations/Native American peoples? ::)
Being divided into "one or the other" just isn't happening. After all, Intersex designates at least 6 (or 8 can't remember) clearly defined levels of presentation, so her argument is completely wrong!
Def be you, def be proud, def don't let anyone tell you different!
My counselor gave me some recommended reading, one is Gender Outlaw by Kate Bornstein, which so far half way through echos a lot of thoughts I have had, it goes into the gender system and the in between. I am finding myself increasingly becoming less worried about "passing" and just being me, I have always been about balance anyway. Though how you get a date in this in between state, I have no idea.
Sorry that you experienced this! Seems like people can be trans* and still be stupid and close-minded.
Quote from: GothFriendly on February 17, 2015, 11:06:08 PM
My counselor gave me some recommended reading, one is Gender Outlaw by Kate Bornstein, which so far half way through echos a lot of thoughts I have had, it goes into the gender system and the in between. I am finding myself increasingly becoming less worried about "passing" and just being me, I have always been about balance anyway. Though how you get a date in this in between state, I have no idea.
;) By dating another two-spirit or genderfluid person or a person who has a fancy for two-spirits ;)
Quote from: adrian on February 18, 2015, 12:53:59 AM
Sorry that you experienced this! Seems like people can be trans* and still be stupid and close-minded.
Well I knew that there were gay and lesbian folks who could not or would not accept transgender folks. I guess just because your something and part of something doesn't mean everyone is going to accept that something.
Next time You might run into someone like that just ask them "Why do they think so?" One thing is to throw around such blatant statements, another one is to try to support them with some reasoning or simply common sense.
Nobody has the right to tell you who you can and can't be.
At the Philadelphia Trans Heath Conference last year the opening ceremony had native American two spirit people perform their ritual daces. I thought it was very cool to see the dances and have their blessings.
Narrow minds and haters are everywhere.
yeah i met a chick like that. she was post everything, stealth, told me if i wasnt into guys then i was a faker.
to be fair i thought about it later and decided she was right about guys, one day im hitting that. but she was still a stuckup bitch. it never fails to surprise me when minorities who have faced intolerance are blatantly intolerant. dont get it. like, didnt they learn the lesson from their own experience?? ehhhhh <not allowed> em.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on February 17, 2015, 08:54:56 PM
She then went on a rant about how long she dealt with erasing her male self and then didn't have much to say to me afterwards.
It's possible the woman you met is still struggling to "erase her male self", despite her claim to the contrary, or is fearful that it will re-emerge.
Although it certainly doesn't excuse her behavior, just thinking about having two spirits may have triggered her big time...
I just loled a little
Little clarification here I am a real live in indian
You know the wagon burner variety
And I am also from a very very isolated part of north america
And because of that I am third generation of white assimilation.
Two spirit is a bi ....not trans
Berdache is boy that lives like girl
I never heard of being both in my culture and I would say that
If anyone's quite the expert it would be me I live it
But if course every non natice or some 5% blood is going
To discredit me because some poorly cis hetero white washed
Version they read in a city prolly 4000 km away said this and said that ...
Questions?
Quote from: natashaX on February 21, 2015, 03:32:41 AM
I just loled a little
Little clarification here I am a real live in indian
You know the wagon burner variety
And I am also from a very very isolated part of north america
And because of that I am third generation of white assimilation.
Two spirit is a bi ....not trans
Berdache is boy that lives like girl
I never heard of being both in my culture and I would say that
If anyone's quite the expert it would be me I live it
But if course every non natice or some 5% blood is going
To discredit me because some poorly cis hetero white washed
Version they read in a city prolly 4000 km away said this and said that ...
Questions?
two spirit can mean bisexual or transgender or genderfluid.
QuoteBAAITS is a community-based volunteer organization offering culturally relevant activities for Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender and Intersex Native Americans, their families and friends. Two-Spirit refers to the commonly shared notion among many Native American tribes that some individuals naturally possessed and manifested both a masculine and feminine spiritual qualities. American society commonly identifies Two-Spirit People as Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual or Transgender.
http://www.baaits.org/#!about/c10fk (http://www.baaits.org/#!about/c10fk)
Isn't it funny how oftentimes we transfolk can hold ourselves to an even more rigorous standard to the gender binary, than cis people ever do?
All my life I was forcing myself to be someone I wasn't. Shortly after I started HRT I felt I was still trying to be someone that I wasn't, trying too hard all the time and had just swapped one coercion for another. Now I dress how I like and don't care if it's mostly jeans, never go out without make-up and my hair done, heaven forbid, and paradoxically more often than before get read as female which must be something to to with being so relaxed about who I am within myself. (Still hate my voice though. Grrrrrr..) My advice therefore to you is just go with the moment and take to heart all the thoughtful and caring advice of those above.
And who really cares anyways lol
Quote from: natashaX on February 21, 2015, 06:30:02 PM
And who really cares anyways lol
Well I care, it hurt my feelings a little.
Quote from: natashaX on February 21, 2015, 06:30:02 PM
And who really cares anyways lol
Shawn cares and this bothered her.
The only person you have to be true to is yourself, Shawn. There are myopic people in every community, sadly but you live the way you need to. You're a pretty cool you from what I've seen here.
Hugs.
Quote from: natashaX on February 21, 2015, 06:30:02 PM
And who really cares anyways lol
Was it necessary to say something so dismissive and hurtful?
Her reaction probably came from a place of insecurity. Another person in the thread hinted at this. My personal feeling about her is that the existence of someone outside of her perception of gender made her feel threatened. Your description of her volunteering how much she had worked to erase her old gender seems indicative of this. She's invested a lot into fitting into her strict ideal of gender and femininity, and meeting someone with such a radically different view of gender than her own challenged her and made her feel uncomfortable, and it was easier for her to simply dismiss it than to have to accept you, and therefore, reconsider her own ideas.
It says a lot more about her than it does about you, Shawn. Don't let it get you down. *hugs* You definitely don't have to be "one or the other."
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on February 17, 2015, 08:54:56 PM
I had the unfortunate pleasure of meeting a gal who essentially disqualified who I was as a person with a few statements in regards to me revealing to her that I was a Two Spirit MTF Transgender Person. She said I cannot be both. She then went on a rant about how long she dealt with erasing her male self and then didn't have much to say to me afterwards. I tried to explain it further, but she was having none of it.. This is the first time I have run into someone in the bay area who reacted this way.
Oh I can see the harsh judgment of comments being wrongly made. Hey, I would like to offer you a new perspective that no one probably has yet. Based soly on what you wrote above, it is very much so possible that she was triggered and unable to accept a fact that people can be more than 1 gender/no gender/other and in order to protect herself she had to deny the facts being presented in front of her. I wouldn't let it get to you, I would stay away from her for your own sake though and if you need proof of why I believe this to be the case about her, look no further than the bolded. Basically the rant, then her not wanting to hear anything of it, and I bet that rant consisted mostly of how she did away with her male self right? This is why I believe in order for her to live with herself, she had to deny facts, facts that may also involve her and I can say for certainty, some of us, can't stand feeling both genders and just wish to be 1 over the other. So yeah, don't let it get to you, just move on, keep your distance from her and, live your life. :)
I think the word "triggered" gets tossed about too blithely these days. "I was triggered so I acted like an arse to someone."
Yeeeeaaaah...not buying it.
I should also point out as a side matter, not that it matters persay, but they had a decent beard going, so this was just as confusing. I didnt ask because that would be rude but I was in the back of my head assuming they might be genderfluid themselves. (as a lot of people are here in San Francisco).
Huh... Well, that sort of discredits my earlier observation, then. I'm really confused about an MTF with a beard trying to tell you that your gender had to exist within a strict binary. :D
Oh well... Some people are just jerks. *more hugs to make you feel better*
Don't you just love the "I'm more trans than you mindset" no-one is black or white, there's many shades of grey (I'm not talking about books here).
You are who you are, if someone cannot accept who you are then tell them to jog on, the only route to inner happiness is to be true to the inner you.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on February 22, 2015, 04:18:11 PM
I should also point out as a side matter, not that it matters persay, but they had a decent beard going, so this was just as confusing. I didnt ask because that would be rude but I was in the back of my head assuming they might be genderfluid themselves. (as a lot of people are here in San Francisco).
Well, as I said, it's only a perspective of what could've been the case, not that it is the case. Also, you all should remember that there are some woman (biological/trans etc.) that do grow beards and are ok with them and like them. Having a beard doesn't make one less of a woman nor more of a man for that matter. Really I wouldn't dwell on what happened and just do your best to move on. I know it hurts but dwelling on it won't make the pain go away.
Quote from: Shana-chan on February 22, 2015, 06:48:22 PM
Well, as I said, it's only a perspective of what could've been the case, not that it is the case. Also, you all should remember that there are some woman (biological/trans etc.) that do grow beards and are ok with them and like them. Having a beard doesn't make one less of a woman nor more of a man for that matter. Really I wouldn't dwell on what happened and just do your best to move on. I know it hurts but dwelling on it won't make the pain go away.
For me having facial hair is already a big dysphoria. Even when I was younger and still saw myself as just a feminine guy, I still did not like having it. I would shave nearly every day. I understand some people have beards. But usually its the genderqueer ones that do, I don't know many transwomen that want facial hair let alone cis women. If it works for you I guess? But would bring me much pain If I had a beard.
I've had more than one person tell me that it's an "either or" and that if I really was serious about transitioning I would have to reintegrate into society and never ever tell anyone I was trans or keep in touch with any of my trans friends. I obviously figured this was the biggest load of crap I'd ever heard but when I was told this the second time I started thinking about why this was happening.
In both cases the women telling me this were older, they started back in the 80s and it was a different world back then. It was at that point I thought back and I realized that back in the 80s there were three boxes that society had created for the trans community and that these women were so conditioned to the labels that society had put on them that they were unable to grasp the reality of today.
The boxes that were created are (and trust me I know how offensive these are):
1. Crossdresser - A fetish for men that like women's clothing
2. Transexual - A mentally disturbed person who probably works as a prostitute and looks like a drag queen
3. Woman
What these girls were telling me was to pick box 3, not because they were being rude but because in their mind that's the best choice.
I think we live in a much better world today (at least those of us who live in trans friendly places) where being trans is actually starting to become cool, having a trans friend is now a "hip" thing oddly enough and with more education people are coming to realize that gender and sex are not the same thing and that gender is a spectrum not just a binary thing with some "misc" people in between.
I think we need to remove labels, why would we want society to label us when each of us is unique.
"I think we live in a much better world today (at least those of us who live in trans friendly places) where being trans is actually starting to become cool, having a trans friend is now a "hip" thing oddly enough and with more education people are coming to realize that gender and sex are not the same thing and that gender is a spectrum not just a binary thing with some "misc" people in between."
You said exactly what my friends think of me. I have no trans friends outside of this site, and it's true that my friends have brought me into their circle of friends as someone who brings a different perspective on life. We all bring something to our group and we all listen and learn from each other.
Oh yes its so hip today
I'm quite passable on average
But men usually don't want tk be see with me .
Took me two and a half years to actually get hired
For a bloody kitchen job.
I'm only hip when cis people are drunk and tell
Me I'm so beautifully lets be friends and than they
Are always busy.
The men they are so hip they onju talk to me when they
Want to use ne sexually and after that they hsbe no use for me
Might be hip for a very very small set of people
And remembwe are these hip people screaming about
Your equality?