So tonight I went over to my friends house for drinks with them. I had come out to them earlier this week, so I went as me (in that dress in the "can I look or pass" thread).
Today all day I had zero problems passing outside of my friends' house. Grocery store, gas station, Lowe's etc. Not a problem.
At my friends house, everyone acts more or less normal around me as if I'm the same person. I actually didn't mind that. Pronouns are a different story, however. They did not use the right ones even though I asked. Well I shouldn't say all of them, one of them did.
The worst was their 4 year old daughter (who knows me), looks at me up and down for about 5 minutes (I am surprised she had an attention span that long) and then plucks up the courage to ask, "are you a boy?" I of course said, "no." Then her parents said, "that's rude to ask, go to your room." No attempt to even say, "no that's not a boy" or anything... But then the misgendering continued. I mean it wasn't mean or nasty or anything but they used the wrong pronouns.
So I know people familiar with you remember you and all and will misgender you, but aren't your friends at least supposed to make an effort to respect your pronouns and wishes?
I'm beginning to think I need new friends.
I mean I don't pass 100% (I'm only on HRT a few months anyway and I have a bit of facial hair) but I do pass with strangers if I make an effort to. When I do my voice surgery I expect to pass even better. But it would be nice for my friends at least to gender me correctly.
I'm sorry your friends aren't really accepting. There's nothing to do but to bring the topic of pronouns up with them again, and if they cannot adjust, then yes, it may be time for new friends.
I also find the way they dealt with their kid very inappropriate. I think they missed a great chance of educating their kid. Like, teach them how to politely ask for someone's gender if they are not sure.
My friends claim to be accepting but I wonder what that really means.
They probably think if they remain friends with me and don't insult me by calling me a ->-bleeped-<- that is good enough. But who knows.
I have a few boneheaded friends that still slip up, as does my MIL. For the first year it was much worse. I decided that I would give everyone a year's free pass on referring to me by my birth name and male pronouns. It does take time to wrap one's head around a friend or family member's transition. If they insist on doing it just to hurt you, then it's time to move on.
People who knew you as male are used to using male pronouns around you. I don't think they mean disrespect, they just need some time to adjust. I have siblings that sometimes call me by my boy name. But more and more they call me Natalie. Give them some time and see what happens. Most people don't even know how to approach a Trans person, it's you're chance to educate.
Like Jill I gave an internal time frame. It does take time to adjust.
Treatment of the child that was wrong IMO.
As far as MIL, I just spent the afternoon with mine in an aged care facility, she introduced me to her friends as her DiL. When she was asked who I was married to she replied her daughter.
There were a few goldfish moments! She is 94. People change, it just takes time and we need to wear armour.
If you only came out a few days ago, it's going to be hard for them to wrap their heads around at first. Many people are very accepting/supportive of the transgender community, but without a personal connection (e.g. a close friend coming out to them) they don't always know what that support or acceptance should actually respectfully entail. A little misgendering doesn't mean they don't support you, they're just figuring out what that really means in their own time. Also, pronouns are about the hardest thing for people to get; even a month or so after I came out, my boss would accidentally say things like "Miss Andrew," which sounds funny, but pronouns really are just difficult. Over time he's gotten way better, though.
I know how hard it is being misgendered to people that you feel should have the common sense to switch instantly, but it's equally difficult for them to switch genders as it is for you to hear the wrong one. Think about it this way: you didn't have to change your pronouns toward yourself in conversation because you will always be 'I' or 'me' to yourself, but all your friends/family have to switch pronoun genders entirely. It can be really difficult for many! Also, sometimes people throw each other off; if one person uses the wrong pronoun in a conversation, it's very hard for the other people so switch back to the correct pronoun mid-conversation.
Hope everything works out with your friends!
Thanks for the replies so far.
Understand that while it is new for them, it is also new for me! I am out to more people than ever before. Last year I hid this from everyone. I sort of expected that if I come out that they'd at least help me here. I know it isn't instant but there didn't seem to be any effort AT ALL.
As for the person who said pronouns aren't important, wrong! Would you be OK if people constantly used the wrong ones? Maybe you would but I'm not. Perception by others is extremely important. Even if people don't see me as a female, at least by acknowledging me as one with pronouns they show that they at least are trying to understand.
In any case I am going to give people about a year or so. I will definitely be a very different person then and that should help some. I hope.
I do have a friend or two that claims to be "accepting " and that we have been friends for very long and always been, but he still sees me as the person i was before... never even bothers trying to use the correct name or pronouns. IMO, that is called "tolerating", and NOT accepting.....
Its very obvious who even tries, and why do they really need so long???? Honesty, why can some people get used to the new you so fast while others never get it??? The answer is, because they dont care or dont want to!
I am busy pulling away from those friends and family that dont treat me like i should be treated. It is sometimes very hard, but in my opinion very nessasary!
I refuse to even go out in publuc with my parents anymore because of them refusing to gender me correctly. And you know what, its their loss!
Unfortunately due to financial circumstances, i have to stay with them for now, but i basically exclude myself from them as much as possible.
My only advice i could offer is to get away from negative family and friends as fast as you can.
It's not about passing.
It's not about acceptance.
It's not about tolerance.
It's about respect.
If they continuously misgender you, they don't respect you. Cut them out like an ingrown nail. You don't need that.
This stuff takes time.
I still have friends that use male pronouns with me, some, because they do not want to use the female ones. I just decided not to mind. When it is rude, I tell them to stop. If it is just their hang up, in spite of still liking me, I really don't care.
I am not becoming female instantly. Transition takes time for me. I will offer my friends and family time too. It is only fair.
That said, I am in a pretty Andro phase right now, I really am enjoying gender fluidity.
Quote from: StrykerXIII on March 08, 2015, 01:42:40 AM
It's not about passing.
It's not about acceptance.
It's not about tolerance.
It's about respect.
If they continuously misgender you, they don't respect you. Cut them out like an ingrown nail. You don't need that.
Bravo! My thoughts exactly.
I feel like it's hard to explain those things to a 4 year old, so maybe you shouldn't expect that, especially right away, and it's just a week later your coming out, they need more time to get used to. I mean you probably had more time to understand yourself, give more time to others to adjust to that as well! Good luck with everything :)
they have probably known you a long time, and are trying to treat you the same as before, in their mind they most likely associate you with male and male appearance, and it will take a while for them to change that, as its not something you really consciously think of. i think it would be bad to just cut your friends out of your life completely over this, and to just keep reminding them when the slip up in the meantime, and if it is consistently over a long period, then maybe think about really talking to them about how you feel.
i think with the four year old, it was kinda hard for them to know what to do, with you in front of them as well. its something that they have probebly never had before, and they are trying to support you when they told the kid off, even if it wasn't the best thing to do, it shows they do care and support you, and are just trying their best to make sure you are accepted, or rather stick up for you.
hope it all works out and you can remain friends, but remember, friends don't purposefully make you feel down, and if they do, then you are better off without, but friends can inadvertently make you feel down sometimes.
hope it all works out :)
How many years did it take for you to accept this as who you are? Now you just have them a few days, did you accept it all in a few days?
It is unreasonable to expect immediate acceptance from every corner of our lives no matter how much we might want it too. They need time just like you did. Educate and remind them of proper use. Show them you are still you and live by example.
After several brutal months my mother is starting to warm up to me again.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: ImagineKate on March 08, 2015, 12:27:43 AM
So tonight I went over to my friends house for drinks with them. I had come out to them earlier this week, so I went as me
...
But it would be nice for my friends at least to gender me correctly.
I think you are expecting a bit much. You only told then very recently and it will week, months or possibly years for them to adapt. "Days" is too short a timescale. People who have known you for years or decades might still slip occasionally even after some years.
I have also experienced this. It has made me wonder about whether it is worth keeping old friends or is it better to work on making new ones and let the past go. I have seriously considered letting go old friends who do try and get gendering right because I get the odd feeling every now and then that somewhere in the depths of their mind they still view me as a male and always will.
It is part of our burden, but I would not make a issue of it unless it becomes spiteful or malicious.
Quote from: ImagineKate on March 08, 2015, 01:30:10 AM
... I sort of expected that if I come out that they'd at least help me here. I know it isn't instant but there didn't seem to be any effort AT ALL. ...
Although it does take people time to get the pronouns right, it's also reasonable to expect your friends to make a serious effort.
If they aren't at least catching and correcting themselves from time to time, they aren't making an effort IMHO, and that's just not friendly.
Quote from: Cindy on March 08, 2015, 01:18:15 AM
As far as MIL, I just spent the afternoon with mine in an aged care facility, she introduced me to her friends as her DiL. When she was asked who I was married to she replied her daughter.
Cindy, I love this story. :)
My own mom is very supportive. But she wasn't even aware of when she was using pronouns. It's taken a year, but now she gets it right about 75% of the time. It's helped that she is open to gentle correction.
It does take take for people to adjust. As long as they are making an effort to use the proper pronouns I'm perfectly fine with that. I came out prior to presenting full time so that gave people more time to get used to it prior to me going full time. Most of my friends now that tell me that can't even picture me being male any longer and only see me as a woman. One rule of thumb I've found to be somewhat true is that it takes to be around someone 20% of the time you've know them to adjust to fully adjust to proper pronouns with a maximum time of 3-4 months for those that knew you your entire like (like patents). Most of my family are fully used to proper pronouns but occasionally still mess up, but they's also messed up on names between all my siblings in the past. So it can happen and it's not even trans related sometimes.
Here is the thing though.
I get that it takes time to adjust. I truly do. I don't expect everyone to magically just switch completely overnight.
But the point is that there seemed to be zero effort, except by one person, and even so only privately with me.
I experienced something similar with my dad, just openly using the wrong name and pronouns while my mother quickly made the pronoun transition for me. Eventually, after about a month and a half I guess, he started using the right name whenever he could catch himself. I think it started on Christmas Eve and continued from there, and he's pretty good with names and pronouns now. I guess something just has to click in some people; give it some time for that 'click.' It's not always about disrespecting someone, sometimes their perspective just isn't as open or revealing of their faults yet.
Good luck! :)
I'm not there. I don't know and cannot say exactly what your current friends' problems may be. I just know that friendships get complicated when you have to completely rebuild them. I have had the same best friend for 17 years. Met him when I was 11 at church lol.. I came out to him last month and he sez he accepts me. But he does the same thing your friends are doing. Incorrect pronouns and such. But on the other hand.. he also hasn't seen ME yet other than in pictures. (Situational problems in time prevent it). So I can't really fault him for it.
On the other hand.. we had a falling out awhile back. I did something terrible to him and he needed about 6 years to figure out how to forgive me. I understood. And was patient. In fact I joined the military while I waited. But the point is.. it took that long for him to adjust to the fact I was still going to be in his life. As his best friend until death if he'd have me. I really do believe he'll eventually call me the right pronouns. But it's going to take time. His words were "Throwing a ->-bleeped-<- into our friendship doesn't change anything but WHAT your are. Not WHO you are. You were always an oddball.. Now I just have to try not to stare at your boobs" and we laughed over it..
Things to consider though:
How long have these people been your friends?
Is the friendship worth working for on your part or is it more of a brick wall?
How "ok" are these friends with the LGBT community? Will they be ok with you making and bringing over new friends like us? Or would you have to hide us from them?
Even though they say they accept "you" do they do crap like "gay bashing" or talk down on people like you and I?
Before I came out.. my whole family talked MAJOR crap about the LGBT community. Now they don't. At all. They just didn't understand it before and needed educated.
If you get new friends.. what kind of friends would you look for? No one is perfect.And making NEW friends can prove a lot harder than helping your current ones understand you over time.
Sorry for the terribly long reply. :D
*HUGS*
1. Not all that long. Maybe at most 2 years.
2. It can and may work.
3. The only one who has said any homophobic things about another person is actually the most supportive of me which is extremely weird. His wife also has a close relative who is MTF. The others, I don't really know. I know one I talked to about same sex marriage and he said he was OK with civil unions but not marriage. The other is more or less an "anything goes" kinda guy but the first question he asked me is "so are you still into chicks?" The other has been silent about me but he says he "accepts everyone except Muslims." Will they be OK with friends like you all? I honestly don't know, for most of them it is brand new.
4. First off I doubt they would be talking down to me in general. As for LGBT I don't think that's their crowd but they don't judge.
Making friends - I've gone through tons of friends mostly because I moved around. When I was in school I had mostly women as friends. Then after school I had a set of women I would hang out with, go clubbing with, etc. I also had my colleagues who were friends. Then I emigrated and it's almost like my girlfriends had a funeral for me. We kept in touch but largely lost touch. It's hard to keep friendships across international boundaries because we were accustomed to doing stuff and going out, hanging out, getting drunk and making mischief.
In New York I made a few friends mostly related to volunteer activities I would be doing. Then I moved to NJ and I made new friends in my ham radio club but they were much older, mostly men. The thing about these friends is that they're low maintenance unlike my girl friends and we don't really hang out. Then this new set of friends I met recently because I liked company to go target shooting. That's mostly what we do. One of them is also involved locally with political activity which I used to be a part of (but can't do anymore due to work restrictions).
What am I looking for? People with common interests mostly. People I can hang out with and who share my passions. You don't have to share them all, just maybe one or two. Or maybe just tell a few good jokes and stuff. That kinda thing.
Hi Babe,
I completely get you. There's wisdom in both sides of the coin - give them time and let them get used to it or just be firm and clear that if misgendering happens again then you're out.
I had that happen to me once inside the women's dressing room. I was trying on some stuff when my ex-friend called me by my old male name and what made it worse is that I'm the only one using the change room. What a twit!
I graciously got out of the dressing room and left her in the mall and vowed never to speak to her again. Those are the types of instances where you just have to let go and let God deal with it. I am slowly letting go and gaining new friends at the same time. As the saying goes, they do come and go.
My opinion, life is short I'd rather spend my time with friends that accepts me for who I am and that includes using the correct pronouns. People will selectively remember if it matters to them (ATM passwords, Pay Day etch) why can't they remember my request if I matter to them and that is my opinion.
Love,
April
Sorry to hear that you're having issues with people who claim to be your friends, Kate. Maybe you need to sit each down and just be honest and sincerely let each know that, you'd really appreciate some effort to refer to you by your prefered pronouns and name, let them know if they make a mistake you're really appreciate it if they self-corrected. My ex has a term for this as her father used to keep saying the same thing over-and-over again: "Change the tape". It seems they're not making much of an effort to "Change the tape" on your prefered pronouns.
If I were anywhere near NYC, I'd come over and give you a hug. One thing my therapist recommended for me, and maybe it'd be easier for you to access, would be a TG therapy group? Where I live it takes me 3hrs to get to the one nearest me. I just happen to be about 30 minutes away when I'm at my electrolysis spa.
Love you,
-Alana
ImageKate, It doesn't sound like even that one person is truly excepting because if they were they wouldn't be doing one thing in private and another around others. I have an Aunt who claimed to be accepting when talking to me, but even when corrected makes no effort what so ever to correct herself or even apologize. The truth came out later when she talked with my brother without me around. She isn't excepting which I already figured and other than when I have to I don't associate with. It's not that I have necessary put a time frame on it it's that I'm more concerned with the effort after awhile as time goes by. I agree with others that they really missed a good teaching oppurtnity with the child. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't give up on them yet, but you need to let them know how you feel about how they are treating you because I can only hope their knowing that might change their behavior if they are truly excepting. Good Luck and Hugs.
Mariah
Quote from: ImagineKate on March 08, 2015, 12:26:32 PM
Here is the thing though.
I get that it takes time to adjust. I truly do. I don't expect everyone to magically just switch completely overnight.
But the point is that there seemed to be zero effort, except by one person, and even so only privately with me.
Kate, this is one of many struggles ahead of you.
Enjoy your transition.
I highly suggest being even more forgiving during transition than you were before.
Why?
Because if your friends want to be around you, they are not as bigoted as some people can be, and early on it is good to have your friends, even if they may not entirely get or understand what you are going through. Transitioning all alone is a terrible struggle for most people. We tend to do better when we have access to friends, in spite of their faults.
Friends can be educated. Be polite. Have a sense of humor and be encouraging, at least for a while. This is NOT just to give them time, it is to buy yourself time. You need time to make new friends, and you can't do that alone. Your old friends will learn from your example but also from the examples of others.
Your one friend who used female pronouns in private? Perhaps talk to them and ask them to help you with the others. Explain that if you make a big fuss about it, it may make everyone defensive, but with their help, simply by calling you the proper things in everybody's presence, mountains could be moved.
Really though, gentle corrections work wonders. If someone calls me Tommy, I just say, "I am working with Tori now." I do not need to make a threat, or tell them how bad they make me feel, or shame them. The point gets made, gently, and they tend to conclude that they should call me Tori if they don't want to see my She-Hulk.
Pronouns are small beans compared to the other ways people can and do hurt trans folk, especially when we do not pass. If you don't learn to forgive even better than you forgave before transition, especially over the small stuff, you could be in for a world of hurt when the big stuff comes around. Things like overt bigotry and physical harassment make things like pronouns pale in comparison, and if you don't learn how to handle your friends' mistakes without upsetting them, how on Earth can you handle a potentially dangerous situation with a bigot?
I hope that makes sense. There are some lessons in transition you do not want to learn the hard way.
Aloha
Tori
So I think I figured it out now.
My so called "friends" are traitors.
Suffice to say one of their wives has been talking to mine behind my back, and mine is making plans to leave.
With her help.
So much for friends.
Kate, this is something I'm fully anticipating with my friends. I don't think my best friend will have issues with at least trying to get it right. It's my other friends that I expect issues with.
I have a group of guys I used to hang out with regularly. Luckily, I don't as often now since I quit drinking. My wife and I changed our names when we got married and I also changed my first name because it costs the same (more bang for the buck). The new name was my new name. Not one of the people from that group used it no matter how much I insisted. It's been over a decade and they normally still call me my old name. This has me pretty much convinced they will always misgender me, as well. I opened to one of them when I took him for coffee and explained to him that this is why I won't be hanging out with the group anymore. He explained to me that they don't call me by my new (apparently 10 years is still new to these people!) because they met me with a different name and that's how they got to know me. Old dog, new tricks. He assures me that it won't be an issue but i'm still doubtful.
Will I disown them for not getting it right the first few times I hang out with them after I ask them? No... it's taken over a decade for some of them to get my name right so I know they just suffer from stubbornness. If they willfully do it to hurt me, then I'll seek out some new friends. But to be honest, I love those guys, whether or not they equate respect with pronouns. It's just a different value system they have and it will buy them some extra consideration from me but... after a few times of it? Nah.
I'd say just give it some time. People can't possible understand what we go through and it's unfair for us to expect them to right away. It sounds like they care about you and aren't trying to hurt you. If it continues then maybe they are.
Quote from: ImagineKate on March 08, 2015, 07:49:54 PM
My so called "friends" are traitors.
Suffice to say one of their wives has been talking to mine behind my back, and mine is making plans to leave.
With her help.
Wow, this is just shocking. I hope you are doing OK, sweetie.
The lawyer is a good idea - it's wise to get prepared early. However, as soon as you disclose you are seeing one, things can escalate quickly. Best to keep lawyer visits and all details of legal discussions to yourself, even if provoked.
Unsolicited advice, I know, but hoping you can avoid any extra chaos...
Keeping friends for the sake of keeping them just so you won't end up being alone is madness. I understand that transition is difficult and no man is island and there's no denying that we need support from our friends and loved ones. However, having so cold friends that doesn't add value to your life but rather insults you from using old pronouns is just not acceptable to me. They are no different from the bigots that you might/will encounter in the real world.
I have 5 friends that immediately trained themselves to use the correct pronouns and even uses my old name at work if they have to and would switch it off as soon as we're out of the office. Easy no, however on the second day of coming out to them they immediately called me April. Am I lucky? I don't think so. I just have friends that respects me and would address me the way I want to be addressed because they love me even if at times they don't understand. Those in my opinion are friends.
I am of the opinion that we train how we want people to treat us. However, making excuses for friends that makes fun of you and uses incorrect pronouns are not acceptable. Forgiveness is one, condoning it is another.
That's really sad, Kate. That she would drag you along like she's trying to accept you as she's making exit plans with the wife of a "so-called" friend. Keep your head up lady, you can get through this.
-Alana
I know all too well how improper pronouns can make one feel. But I never had that feeling until about a year full time or even longer with my children. I have been full time for a little over 3 years, my children have finally used proper pronouns in about the last eight months. Some of this was because of me not demanding it, once I did and told them why they tried harder and do a fairly good job now. BUT, can you imagine how hard this is to do for them, and they don't see me as a male or treat me like one either.
I think too many trans want this too quickly. I'm sorry but you and many more need to be more realistic. I have always tried to put myself in other peoples shoes in many situations, I did this often with my transition. If you think it is easy for someone to refer to you by a new name or a new gender than you don't understand how all people think. A good example is try calling your cat or dog the opposite gender....its not easy. Sure it doesn't help that they can't tell you...but the main thing is it is ingrained in someone. Or try calling someone a new name.....my one son wanted to be called by his middle name....I was all for it since I really liked it, we soon forgot too often that it just faded away.
I still have a few members of my family I don't see often that use the wrong pronoun....and I am sure my ex does with my children. It sucks but its human nature.
You need to give people time to get adjusted. It's not going to happen overnight, and in a week. It takes the longest for people who knew you before.
Quote from: Rudy King on March 09, 2015, 05:50:57 AM
You need to give people time to get adjusted. It's not going to happen overnight, and in a week. It takes the longest for people who knew you before.
It's not even about getting adjusted. There was ZERO effort. NONE whatsoever. He, him, his. All night long. Even though I asked and said stop it, it's she, her and hers. They just continued like I was talking to a brick wall.
One of my "friends" even referred to me as "the only man in the room that can (the rest of the conversation is private)." The least he could have done was say only PERSON and keep it genderless. And it's not like I was even presenting male at all.
You can't choose your family, but you sure as hell can choose your friends.
If it were me, I'd be seeking new friends.
New friends!
Transition brings a lot of decisions, and you should mix with people that bring you up and support you. Most of my friends support my decision, and those that didn't, I don't mix with anymore... You tell them, judge by their response, and if after some time their is no effort from their side, just move on!
You will know when they are trying or just don't care! It is very obvious...
My dad refuses to see me as his daughter or call me my new name, my mom says she tries, but switches on and off as it conveniently suits her (and depending on who she is around...), and when asked/confronted, starts making a huge scene stating how difficult it is and she knows me my whole like, blah blah... How come I have good, old friends that adjusted really quickly, and very occasionally make a little slip-up, and then apologize, and others don't try at all, unless you make a scene, then they apologize and come up with excuses, just to shut you up.
I now refuse to go out anywhere in public with my parents, unless their attitude towards me changes.
This is MY life and I must live it, and don't see why I must suffer because someone wont accept me for who I am.
If you don't like what I am and what I am doing, Get the h@ll out of my life!
O, and regarding adjustment time. Yes, everyone will need some time, but be realistic about it.
Hope everything turns out good for you :-)
^^^^^^^^^^
What she said.
To hell with those who refuse to even try.
Life is too short to be wasted on family or friends who are having trouble seeing that we are adults, making our life decisions.
This is exactly what I said in my post. Why should I adjust and accommodate to you when I am the one who's undergoing all these changes.
Life is short to be surrounded by people that does NOT add value to your life.
Move on, make friends - you are not married to them.
April xo
Quote from: Muffinheart on March 10, 2015, 06:23:41 AM
^^^^^^^^^^
What she said.
To hell with those who refuse to even try.
Life is too short to be wasted on family or friends who are having trouble seeing that we are adults, making our life decisions.
Quote from: ImagineKate on March 09, 2015, 07:25:27 AM
It's not even about getting adjusted. There was ZERO effort. NONE whatsoever. He, him, his. All night long. Even though I asked and said stop it, it's she, her and hers. They just continued like I was talking to a brick wall.
One of my "friends" even referred to me as "the only man in the room that can (the rest of the conversation is private)." The least he could have done was say only PERSON and keep it genderless. And it's not like I was even presenting male at all.
I would suggest having an heart to heart then and talk to them about it. I'm sure they weren't doing in spite.
My voice is gender ambiguous, and so at work I get called sir all the time, but in my street clothes, I'm a girl (unless I get sick). I've learned not to give a s#!t.
All I can tell you is, you shouldn't just give up friends just because they misgender you, especially if they decided to stay with you in transition.
Quote from: Rudy King on March 10, 2015, 01:10:50 PM
I would suggest having an heart to heart then and talk to them about it. I'm sure they weren't doing in spite.
My voice is gender ambiguous, and so at work I get called sir all the time, but in my street clothes, I'm a girl (unless I get sick). I've learned not to give a s#!t.
All I can tell you is, you shouldn't just give up friends just because they misgender you, especially if they decided to stay with you in transition.
Nope. I dumped them like a used diaper... for pretty much the same reason. I can't trust them.
These aren't my only set of friends either. I have others who are also supportive (and who use the right pronouns!)
To explain further, one of them (their wives) is talking with my wife and my wife is gladly giving her the details of everything and confiding in one of them.
I mean, I get that she needs someone to talk to. I asked her to see a therapist many times over. She doesn't. Every excuse there is, especially money. I even offered to pay. I stopped asking her. She needs professional help to deal with this like I am getting.
But this is a huge liability for me now in terms of gossip. Quite simply I am not ready to be fully outed against my own will, and this can lead to it. I mean yes some people will know about me but not every little detail... I share a lot here but there is a lot I don't really share either, and I share it only at home. Now I have such distrust in everyone close to me even my wife and mom I am keeping things on the down low right now.
Quote from: ImagineKate on March 10, 2015, 01:19:46 PM
To explain further, one of them (their wives) is talking with my wife and my wife is gladly giving her the details of everything and confiding in one of them.
I mean, I get that she needs someone to talk to. I asked her to see a therapist many times over. She doesn't. Every excuse there is, especially money. I even offered to pay. I stopped asking her. She needs professional help to deal with this like I am getting.
But this is a huge liability for me now in terms of gossip. Quite simply I am not ready to be fully outed against my own will, and this can lead to it. I mean yes some people will know about me but not every little detail... I share a lot here but there is a lot I don't really share either, and I share it only at home. Now I have such distrust in everyone close to me even my wife and mom I am keeping things on the down low right now.
I know that feeling, my mom kept confiding in people without asking me and giving them details I probably wouldn't have allowed before I was out to everyone. It's terrifying, not knowing who knows what and what they think of it, even if they're supportive of whoever's giving them the 'in.' Like you, I was in the pickle of knowing that she needed someone else to talk to but didn't want/think she was in need of a therapist. I just asked her to keep it in for a little longer until I could come out, and she was respectful of that for the month or so it took me to come out completely. Have you asked her to limit her output to family and friends?
Big hugs, ImagineKate.
My transition made me realize a few things about people that I never had before:
Most people have ZERO experience with transgender people that are "out" and have no freaking clue what to do when they encounter one. I'm pretty sure that most people's experiences are limited to COPS and Jerry Springer.
Some people will never pull their heads out of their butts. (If I ever invent the rectocranial extractor, I'll be sure to let you know.)
Life is far too precious and short to spend it with douchenozzles. My transition announcement was what showed me what all the people in my life were REALLY made of. I know who my friends truly are now and I know whom to avoid.
People's opinions of LGBT can/do evolve, so I'm glad now that I never burned a bridge.
If you're out to one person or they suspect something's up with you, don't assume they can/will keep it to themselves forever. I seized control of the situation by making sure everyone knew on my terms before the rumor mill took over. I just assume now that everyone that I ever knew in my life knows by now. Let's face it, being trans is still some pretty juicy gossip. Now there are people who only ever knew me as Jill who find out later through the rumor mill that I used to be a Greg. Whatever. I just assume everyone who doesn't know will eventually. I don't exactly go around with a neon sign that says I'm trans, but I'm certainly not ashamed of it. Suffice to say I'm really fun at parties.
More hugs,
Jill
Yep. My next step is to come completely out, even on social media where I've hid my trans-ness at her request. If she's telling people our business I think I'll just save her the trouble.
However I will have to come out at work as well because a number of my coworkers are on there too.
So I found out some things.
They told the kid about me beforehand, that I'm really "a boy in a dress" which is why she came up and asked if I'm a boy. That's even more disgusting. And I noticed the kid looked long and hard... They claim that the kids get confused and that they have two gay friends who are married and the kid was confused because two men were married. This is a 4 year old. My BS detector is going off. Sounds like her parents are teaching her to hate from a young age. I feel sorry for that poor kid.
Meanwhile? My kids are doing fine. They love me to pieces. Their mom says they're confused, but in reality they are not. They don't even ask why I'm wearing a dress, they just comment that I'm wearing one and even one of my daughters says it's pretty.
Anyway I should really put this behind me now.
Quote from: ImagineKate on March 11, 2015, 10:22:29 PM
So I found out some things.
They told the kid about me beforehand, that I'm really "a boy in a dress" which is why she came up and asked if I'm a boy.
That's a huge ass clue that they are not supportive. There is not need to tell a 4 your old (or anyone) that.
Quote
That's even more disgusting. And I noticed the kid looked long and hard...
If they had not said anything to the kid, the kid probably would have just seen you as a woman. Unfortunately this is where transphobia begins.
Quote
They claim that the kids get confused and that they have two gay friends who are married and the kid was confused because two men were married. This is a 4 year old. My BS detector is going off. Sounds like her parents are teaching her to hate from a young age. I feel sorry for that poor kid.
Hate or ignorance, either way I feel sorry for them too.
Quote
Meanwhile? My kids are doing fine. They love me to pieces. Their mom says they're confused, but in reality they are not. They don't even ask why I'm wearing a dress, they just comment that I'm wearing one and even one of my daughters says it's pretty.
Anyway I should really put this behind me now.
Kids are really great and are not judgemental (but don't have a filter). My wife's cousin has a daughter that was 4 the last time she met me in our house in NJ before I transitioned. When I saw her a month ago at my in-laws house in TN , her mom didn't say anything about it to let her child just be. She really didn't recognize me at all. She just says, wow, your a tall woman. As the evening goes on she recognized my wife and asked about one of our cats that she saw the last time she saw us at out house. After my wife explained that they had passed away, I joined the conversation and told her we now have two new cats. She looks at my wife and says where is the tall guy that was their and why isn't he with you. My wife pointed to me and said you mean her. Her response was "She's a girl!" My wife sats "Yes she is." Her next question was, "Can I see your kitties when I come back to NY?" That was it, and never questioned my gender. Just saw me as a tall girl.
I definitely say it's time to dissociate from those so called friends.
More like a flaming red neon sign if you asked me! One of them is genuinely supportive though along with his wife. (She wants to give me some shoes and other stuff in addition to using the name and pronounsa). I may still keep them as friends but it would be kinda awkward hanging out.
Quote from: ImagineKate on March 12, 2015, 01:40:30 PM
More like a flaming red neon sign if you asked me! One of them is genuinely supportive though along with his wife. (She wants to give me some shoes and other stuff in addition to using the name and pronounsa). I may still keep them as friends but it would be kinda awkward hanging out.
But there's free shoes involved :D
Quote from: Rotika on March 13, 2015, 08:47:36 AM
But there's free shoes involved :D
LMAO!
I was thinking the same thing. *sigh*
Quote from: ImagineKate on March 13, 2015, 08:48:41 AM
LMAO!
I was thinking the same thing. *sigh*
and THAT, my girl.. is the type of thinking that get us into trouble. Never pass up free shoes! I wish I could find my size. 12's in womens are hard to find.
Yeah I hear you. I am "lucky" that 9.5 or 10 fits me rather well. 9.5 is a bit tight but it works.
Spoke to another friend yesterday. One of my former friends who was there this last Saturday outed me to him. He also said that he couldn't stand to look at me. My other friend who he told says he accepts me though but I'm playing it cautiously. He was just a bit pissed that I didn't tell him sooner. But he sounds genuine. We will see. He hasn't slipped on pronouns or name yet. He was a bouncer in a bar and met a few trans people before.
It can be really hard to gauge the reason some friends are for or against our transition. Sure some are just bigots, there's no doubt this is a real opportunity for some people to show their true colours. But for others, are they being supportive because they're truly happy for us or just because they feel obliged to be (either due to their progressive leanings or because we're their friend). For the ones that are unhappy about it, is it because they are worried due to a poor understanding of what's involved, or they might feel embarrassed being seen with us, or are they afraid of losing the person they know (I had a couple express this to me) or because they have a "thing" for us and feel they could convice us otherwise (had a gay male friend like this). Or who knows? Back in 1990 I had a female friend try to talk me out of transition. She was adamant I was making the wrong decision. She still went along with me though, usually got the name and pronouns right. Then a year later she came out as lesbian. Interestingly, she has been very supportive of me this time around.
Hi Kate,
I am sorry this is happening to you, it must be very difficult.
It sounds like you are doing the right things. Containing the information, removing the unacceptable and preparing to come out at work. Coming out at work before your wife outs you there is important. If you control the message you control the content. You wife sounds hurt and may lash out at you through your professional contacts.
Your ex-friends (except the one couple) are better out of your life. Do not allow them any room in you head. They are gone.
I'm not that worried about work finding out as my manager and HR know and my industry (media) is very LGBT friendly.
In fact I'm not really worried about being outed at all and I'm confused why I stay closeted to a lot of people.
Come to think of it the only people who I'm staying closeted for is her and her family who we don't even talk to anymore... She asked that I don't come out on Facebook because she doesn't want her family to find out.
The reasons for not coming out at work are pretty stupid come to think of it.
The main reason is that I haven't changed my name and the reason THAT hasn't been done is because I'm going to Korea and I've already booked plane tickets under my old name.
But it's not so silly when you consider that I do a fair amount of my communication via email and IM and the last thing I want is people associating the female me with my birth name.
I don't think the company will change my name without a legal document.
Quote from: ImagineKate on March 14, 2015, 07:06:28 PM
I don't think the company will change my name without a legal document.
Very likely.
I avoided going to an interstate conference after I had transitioned at work because I hadn't gotten around to updating my credit card or frequent flyers card!! Sometimes it's just easier to avoid the complication of all that crap!