So I am planning on getting VFS through Yeson. I have all but booked the appointment, which I would like to do in the next couple of days at the latest.
But I have concerns. Not of losing my voice, being injured, or going to Korea. My concern is that my voice may end up too high. I did some resting voice recordings for Yeson and they came back saying my fundamental frequency is 189hz. This is seems wrong to me, but if they are correct, I am worried that with the increase from VFS and then resonance training afterwards, it might end up like Minnie Mouse. When I do analysis through PRAAT, it comes up around 150hz (which has gone up 10-15hz since I starting this process). If my fundamental frequency is 150hz, then I would think I am in the perfect range to get the surgery done.
Any thoughts? Anyone else have this experience? Does anyone have a link or a voice sample to someone who has a 150 or 180 fundamental frequency?
Melissa
I think you can do several things. One is to do a really really relaxed (no pitch inrease, no "trained voice") reading of the "rainbow passage" with a high quality mocrophone and send the voice file to Dr Kim for analysis. The other is to go to a local voice specialist and let them analyze your fundamental frequency. If all that is no option, be assured that Dr Kim will do a thorough voice analysis when you are there and will tell you if you would end up too high. I know he sent some people home who had a too high fundamantal freqency and would have ended up in an artificially high range. (Which is of course annoying after the patient doing all the planning and preparations, but better than having a bad result, right?). He also voiced his concern with me that I should not use my trained voice anymore post op, since that was at 180 Hz before and would later be in the 260 Hz range , which he considers too high for my built. You can look for the Videos of Livvy here in the forum , or the ones from J-Mi - they both have gained a bit more in pitch than the usual 75Hz, but they liked it that way, they are in the 230-260 Hz range and it seems to fit them and does not sound like minnie Mouse - I think you would have to really mess up as a surgeon to have someone sound like Minnie Mouse.
Thanks Anjaq. I will look up the video of Livvy. I have seen J-Mi's.
I did send Jesse a high quality recording of my voice using PRAAT reading rainbow passage. That is what they based thier 189hx fundamental frequency on.
Oh ok. So it was Dr Kim who said you have a female fundamental frequency? Then I assume, he told you that he would not readily advise for VFS? But PRAAT said 150 Hz to the same recording? That would be a bit weird... Maybe you can share the recording here and we can check it out?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pj0d0mvk7E is what I meant plus the videos of J-Mi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeZ6SNLGP_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMTuaYk_qdk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AG_vNVftOg
They both say they have a speaking pitch of 230-260 Hz on average and I dont think at all they sound like "Minnie Mouse" - LOL - but at least from Livvy, I know she is not tall and not big , so that voice fits her. For me, it would not fit, Dr Kim takes this into consideration and he also can deliberately do a less pronounced increase in the pitch. Amy had that done as she wanted to still sing in the Alto range, so her increase is probably a bit less than with others.
Was the recording with the 190 Hz base pitch your natural and relaxed pitch? No effort at all? Basically close to what it was pre-transition? Another question is, do you take Spiro? Spiro can apparently temporarily (until it is no longer used because one had Orchie or GRS) increase pitch of the voice, this would then distort the analysis of the natural voice.
Thanks anjaq,
I also sent a recording to Jesse not using rainbow passage. I noticed a big difference in the pitch of my voice between the two files. I think I might know where the disconnect in this whole process; I practiced on rainbow passage too much. I think that when I read rainbow passage it is increasing my pitch without me even trying or noticing. I have linked the two audio files that I sent.
Rainbow Passage: https://app.box.com/s/syputf9i2cw6nc7o3zqmy6xicqf5uhxl
General Rambling: https://app.box.com/s/7y7z3txzxnr33l5v5ugzwo5nbhout1wy
Let me know what you think.
Thanks,
Melissa
Yes - definitely reading generally, but especially reading that rainbow passage for the 1000th time will make your pitch appear higher ;) - Better choose a different one then for the assessment. When I was in the Yeson clinic, they noticed this effect apparently when I read the rainbow passage without really having to read it from the paper, so they gave me a different text for the computer analysis. Something about a grandfather... I assume that this was to make me read something with a natural pitch and not some fake pitch that I slip into when reading that rainbow passage again and again.
Thanks for the reply anjaq. I emailed Yeson to see if they had another passage I could read to do the analysis before I book the surgery. I listened to J-Mi's 3 month post op voice and personally I would find that to be too high. I am 6ft tall and 34 years old. I just don't think it would fit me at all.
You can try to play around with your voice recordings in Audacity and increase the pitch there to see how you like it. It won't be perfect but you'll get a very rough idea. Personally I'm at 133Hz right now but I would like to get 215-220 if possible. They said with the average increase they could do 205 but we'll see.
I am 5'6" and 36 years old (but I feel like I am 21!)
Ok, I checked your recordings. Audibly, the rainbow passage is definitely higer in pitch and also seems to have a more feminine speaking pattern - more voice melody, less vocal fry. PRAAT gives me something between 150 and 180 Hz depending on which section I take out, some are even at 140 Hz. So I would guess your F0 to be 140 Hz from that and the other parts are probably more elevated because of the reading. The other voice file was more natural, also more monotonous, so I think it probably reflects more your natural fundamental frequency, whicn in this case seems to be around 135 Hz, basically in the same range as many here who had VFS, including myself (according to Dr Kim at least - my own analysis gave me 110-120 Hz - I try to take out the very high parts of a reading because they do not reflect my fundamental frequency ). What is very audible in both recordings though, especially in the one without the reading, is that you have a lot of vocal fry use (it sounds like a buzzing sound). This is normally a male characteristics, even though in the past year or so it has somehow become a fashion in women. However this drags down the frequency in a very low range when it happens. Lower than as if other women use their vocal fry. So i think you should avoid this, especially if you want to have a clean recording of your F0 - the 140 Hz section in the rainbow passage was one that had vocal fry in it - if I look just at that small section with the vocal fry, it even goes way lower.
So maybe you should do a reading of any other text - maybe some other book section or some technical manual (those are good because they do not promote too much voice melody ;) ) in a relaxed way and then use this to determine your F0 and also send it to Yeson.
Well yes - I would not want J-Mi's pitch either. I am 5'8 but of heavy built, so it would not fit to me. I hope I will end up in the range Dr Kim predicted, around 200 Hz, I dont care if it is a bit lower even, 180 would still be ok, below that I would kind of be disappointed i think.
But again - its kind of tricky to get a good fundamental frequency measurement. But be assured that Dr Kim will find it and that you can talk to him about your goal in pitch increase. A friend of mine was with me for voice analysis alone and he looked not only at the numbers from the computer but also listened to her and said her real F0 is lower than in the recordings and that she would, despite trying to be relaxed, still use an elevated voice, but it is one that comes to her without effort and naturally, even if the F0 would be lower. So he advised against surgery for her, since she needs no effort to get a good voice despite the lower F0. So he certainly can distinguish between a F0 from computer readings and the real one :) - but of course you would have to be there and for now it makes sense to try and find out how it is beforehand, so you know if you should go there at all or not.
This is one big reason why I'm not doing training beforehand. I want to get a good, clean baseline (to use a pun) so dr Kim can treat me appropriately.
Thanks for taking the time to listen to the recordings and analyzing them anjaq! You rock!
Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is vocal fry?
There is a funny video that explains it inthe context of how many girls nowadays seem to play with vocal fry. She demonstrates it in the video though : www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsE5mysfZsY
In your rainbow recording you can hear it starting at Second 36. In PRAAT you can see the blue line (pitch indicator) bottoming out for some milliseconds. It is a kind of buzzing, snarly, creaky sound.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsnag.gy%2FdTUGS.jpg&hash=5fe40b546740581907ea964474d5460b67578ca8)
Quote from: Melissa Forever on March 12, 2015, 01:46:40 PM
Thanks for taking the time to listen to the recordings and analyzing them anjaq! You rock!
Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is vocal fry?
Think of it as a "grovely" kind of voice. It sounds like bacon, hence the term "fry."
Quote from: Melissa Forever on March 12, 2015, 09:01:48 AM
Thanks anjaq,
I also sent a recording to Jesse not using rainbow passage. I noticed a big difference in the pitch of my voice between the two files. I think I might know where the disconnect in this whole process; I practiced on rainbow passage too much. I think that when I read rainbow passage it is increasing my pitch without me even trying or noticing. I have linked the two audio files that I sent.
Rainbow Passage: https://app.box.com/s/syputf9i2cw6nc7o3zqmy6xicqf5uhxl
General Rambling: https://app.box.com/s/7y7z3txzxnr33l5v5ugzwo5nbhout1wy
Let me know what you think.
Thanks,
Melissa
Rainbow sounds pretty gender ambiguous. I think your inflection is good as well. Anja is correct you do have a bit of vocal fry. A lot of people are doing it now because they heard Kim Kardashian talking like that and they all want to be like her... ::)
I am not sure that Kim Kardashian is the reason in this case, is it? ;) I never saw her before and had some of that voice stuff going on apparently. I try to watch it now. Well I tried to watch it some weeks ago. Now I dont have to - LOL
Oh I agree.
I heard back from Jesse and I submitted her this recording. PRAAT is giving it an average of 148hz I believe.
https://app.box.com/s/se4uh93s5vqdq3sqvjt7xf9ydp20w1y8
I am glad they will do another analysis, I am sure it will come back much lower which will make me feel better. It's funny anjaq, after watching that video I can hear the vocal fry all the time when I record now :) Just another thing to work on after the surgery :)
Yeah that one sounds lower, but higher than mine.
This is mine with a tired voice. The passage is "comma gets a cure" which is the standard IDEA passage now.
https://app.box.com/s/grjdrp3caw1jf438ik7d2yfoxtal4t0v
Praat says 127Hz.
You can start to work on getting rid of the vocal fry at any time. it never hurts... ;)
That was my tired voice though. :)
My normal voice has little of it.
I heard back from Yeson and my fundamental frequency is 145hz. I am so relieved and am in the process of booking the surgery now! Jesse mentioned that Dr. Kim noticed a vocal tremor, glottal fry, and voice breaks. I will need to get a botox injection. Does anyone know if this has to be done again in the future (as in a semi-regular process)?
I started re-reading Jenny's Yeson thread and there was a post she made that sounded exactly like me. She talked about always having to clear her throat like she had phlegm all the time. It turned out to be part of what was causing the tremors. I always thought it was phlegm or something, but now I wonder if it is the same thing. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Dr. Kim is able to fix that as well!
I started doing some Vlogs about my transitions yesterday and I hate the way my voice sounds (obviously), but noticed I am feminizing really well at this point. I had the sudden realization that I might pass once my voice changes. Just... so... excited!
Melissa
Cool - I dont know your Vlogs, but why would you not pass. Voice is a biggie though - besides face and maybe boobs the most important gender marker people will notice right away.
I am not suprised at his diagnosis - hehe, I seem to develop an "ear" for that, especially the vocal fra was quite obvious and the breaks as well. The tremor seems to be something all transwomen have, at least according to Dr Kim. Unless you are a singer who has learned very good control of the voice maybe.
I read up a bit on that issue and also his diagnosis. It is "Spasmodic dysphonia" or "focal laryngeal dystonia" - check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spasmodic_dysphonia for an overview. There are more medical pages on thsi like http://www.dystonia.org.uk/index.php/professional-research/types-of-dystonia/laryngeal-dystonia
Severe cases sound awful, the voices sound squeezed and break all the time. So if this is comparable we seem to have in common to have a mild form of this. Treatment with Botox is advised by the professionals on this , but they also have surgeries where they cut nerves or muscles to reduce the tension and tremor. In severe cases the botox has to be repeated ever 3-4 months.
It is described as a neurological condition.
Now my GUESS is that Dr Kim believes that this issue in our cases is caused by a misuse of the voice, a mismatch between what the brain wants and what the larynx does and what the brain is used to do and what it tries to do - all of this seems to cause issues. So his approach seems to be to treat the symptoms of this for a while - 3-4 months with botox and then again the same time with medication and meanwhile have the surgery heal and the brain adapt to the new voice that should now take less effort to match, so less tension, less mismatch and so on. What he said to me was that the brain should learn how to use the new voice within some months, with vocal exercises and botox in effect, and then also the tremor should subside.
In his therapy, botox is used only 1 or 2 times plus some time on medication. I guess this is possible because it is only a mild form, the severe forms of this dystonia seem not to go away like that.
Oh and yes - misusing the voice, overusing it, forcing or pushing it to something it is not naturally can cause phlegm and neck pain and all kinds of stuff. I had that too, voice therapy helped a bit, my hope is that now after the VFS I will be able to speak relaxed and thus not strain my voice to use the pitch I would like to use.
Quote from: Melissa Forever on March 11, 2015, 11:48:43 AM
So I am planning on getting VFS through Yeson. I have all but booked the appointment, which I would like to do in the next couple of days at the latest.
But I have concerns. Not of losing my voice, being injured, or going to Korea. My concern is that my voice may end up too high. I did some resting voice recordings for Yeson and they came back saying my fundamental frequency is 189hz. This is seems wrong to me, but if they are correct, I am worried that with the increase from VFS and then resonance training afterwards, it might end up like Minnie Mouse. When I do analysis through PRAAT, it comes up around 150hz (which has gone up 10-15hz since I starting this process). If my fundamental frequency is 150hz, then I would think I am in the perfect range to get the surgery done.
Any thoughts? Anyone else have this experience? Does anyone have a link or a voice sample to someone who has a 150 or 180 fundamental frequency?
Melissa
Melissa,
Please let me know any question or other things that I can help with. I will reply in this thread, and other people may get some info on visiting Seoul, too.
Asian dust tends to be severe in April. April weather is unpredictable in Seoul, sometimes can be windy and chilly, other times can be like summer. You may look weekly weather forecast just before your departure to Seoul.
Cheers!
barbie~~
Anjaq - My vlogs are not on youtube, but I might consider it down the road. They are mostly for me to see how I have progressed, to keep track of how I am feeling, and so my son knows what i was like when he was young. I feel I do not pass yet simply because the hormones have not softened my features enough, my voice is not feminine enough, and my mannerisms are still very masculine. Living a double life certainly doesn't help with that at all. Only a few more weeks till I am out to everyone at my work. I am glad that we both thought I was more in the 140-150 hz range and you were very spot on regarding my vocal issues.
Barbie - Thanks so much for the help. I am super excited to travel there and see a different culture.
Melissa
Ah I understand that - private Vlogging - I wonder if your son will ever see it? Is he ok with all of this? How young is he? My family does not really want me to explain how I feel :( - They tell me they accepted what I do and that I am who I am now and that seems to have to do. They dont want to know more.
Well - hormones take a while and also they need to be of the right composition and application and dosage to do their work in the best way. I gained a lot from switching hormones after 13 years of the same stuff.
Mannerisms - ok, thats odd. Do yoou have to pretend to be male a lot? I kind of could not do that anymore once I came out. It felt all fake and wrong and I could not even make it work anymore. So i dropped it. And I started to "pass" without any hormones. But voice was still a big bugger back then for me. There were no surgeries for that though. So you are in a way lucky you transition now, as you have all those opportunities to get a good voice surgery and all of that. Good luck on coming out at work - so you will come out there and then soon after be off for VFS? The no speaking for a month after VFS is really annoying in respect to work. And I dont expect to be very good in talking in the second month either. So it is a bit of a strain on my work, but it works somehow.
So waiting time currently is about 4 months I think, so you would be there in the midst of summer... I hear it can be very hot and humid there at that time, so bring light dresses and get a room with a good air conditioning that is not blowing the cold air at you - you dont want to get a cold or dry air in the room.
We always put up wettened towels in the room to dry and humidify the air.
Hey anjaq,
My son is 22 months. Just a little guy. He likely wont remember the old me, so i thought it would be nice to have some pictures and a few recordings directed to him so that he could see what I use to look like (if he is interested). My family is behind me 100% and I just let my ex-wife know my transition plan. She wasn't hostile when I told her, just want to make sure my son will be ok. We are starting to work on that process and will be seeing a child psychologist to get a better feel for what we should expect long term.
My dose is actually in a perfect spot right now according to my Dr. and I would agree with him simply because I am seeing lots of changes happening now. The first 6 months had me with zero increase in estrogen (in the average male range), but steadily decreasing testosterone. Now everything is within female averages.
I know what you mean about faking it. I don't really hold myself back anymore (even though I am not out to everyone at work) and will comment and engage in talking about female things. I think there are somethings I need to unlearn, but they will only happen until I am full time and in social situations with other women. I am definitely not the girliest girl when it comes to mannerisms.
Now that I am out to my ex, I am not worried about her stumbling across my posts. I have uploaded an avatar picture, so you can have a bit better idea of what I am working with :)
Melissa
I think your avatar picture looks pretty good already :) - but I imagine it will get better. Hormones are tricky. the most important measure is your wellbeeing and your rate of feminization. And this means sometimes breaking with doctors recommendations (e.g. a lot of people are happier and feel better and feminized better by refusing to take the androcur). But thats a different topic. I wish you the best on your coming out at work plans. And yes of course, mannerisms are important, body language and all that. One has to let go of the fake stuff and just be oneself... one can be surprised how femme that one comes out ;)
I have 3 x 4 year olds and they will probably remember the old me as I remembered my dad at that age.
The phlegm thing makes sense too for me. I don't have to clear my throat very often, maybe about once an hour. I wouldn't be surprised if there was asymmetry though.
They told me my Fo (133Hz) but did not mention anything else. I may still have to get the botox like practically everyone else as I could hear the tremor. I have a bit of fry only when I'm tired though. They asked for a second recording actually this time with some free talking. I hope it's not bad news.
Thanks anjaq. I feel like I am in a really good place right now in terms of my physical changes and it is very encouraging to know that there is still lots of time for growth. 9 months is pretty early in the grand scheme of things. I have my good days and bad days just like everyone else, but I can always see the cute girl in the mirror. I can't really ask for much more than that.
I forgot to respond mention that I will have 1 month off from work during the period where I cannot speak, so that will make things much less stressful. I will likely be doing work during that time, but it will be all through email. I had been saving my holidays for just such an occasion :)
Quote from: ImagineKate on March 18, 2015, 04:00:19 PM
I have 3 x 4 year olds and they will probably remember the old me as I remembered my dad at that age.
The phlegm thing makes sense too for me. I don't have to clear my throat very often, maybe about once an hour. I wouldn't be surprised if there was asymmetry though.
They told me my Fo (133Hz) but did not mention anything else. I may still have to get the botox like practically everyone else as I could hear the tremor. I have a bit of fry only when I'm tired though. They asked for a second recording actually this time with some free talking. I hope it's not bad news.
ImagineKate - Wow that is amazing, I can't really remember much before 4 years old. When are you looking to go to Yeson?
Quote from: Melissa Forever on March 18, 2015, 04:02:51 PM
ImagineKate - Wow that is amazing, I can't really remember much before 4 years old. When are you looking to go to Yeson?
I'm booked for the end of June.
As for when I was 4, I remembered a lot.
My 4th birthday.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3929/15393343626_29948def25_c.jpg)
I dont remember much before I was 6 or 7 :( darn.
Well, taking one month off after surgery makes a lot of sense. or working only by email. I did a bit of work during my time off , which was 3 weeks in total but that included some days before the surgery for the travel , so I am already back at work now for 3 days and still have to wait at least a week before I can say a few sentences a day, which still may not be much.
I was lucky enough to get it on sick leave though and did not have to use vacation for it. It is not a vacation after all, it is a medical procedure neccesary for my health, so I refused to just do this on vacation time and then have no more free days for the rest of the year to rest and relax.
I am hoping I can do the same thing anjaq, but if I have to use vacation time I will (as a last resort).
So my surgery is officially booked and you are not going to believe the date... April 30. Jesse had an even earlier option of April 7, but that is just too short notice. I still need to renew my passport.
I am so very excited! It is real now!
Not bad! I wanted one in June anyway but when I booked they said 3-4 months out, guess you picked up someone's cancellation or something.
Yes - I was offered an alternative date in March when I was pondering to cancel my original appointment End of February due to my cold - apparently they have some people cancel their dates occasionally.
Quote from: Melissa Forever on March 18, 2015, 07:31:34 PM
I am hoping I can do the same thing anjaq, but if I have to use vacation time I will (as a last resort).
So my surgery is officially booked and you are not going to believe the date... April 30. Jesse had an even earlier option of April 7, but that is just too short notice. I still need to renew my passport.
I am so very excited! It is real now!
My favorite hotel in Seoul is "Noble hotel", as the fare is very cheap. You may find it at hotels.com. It is not a nice hotel, but I would recommend it if you want a very economic room and do not care about the distance to Yeson. The rate is about US$50-70 per night.
Typically the rate of a room is > US$120 per night in Gangnam area. I sometimes stay in Novotel Ambassador Gangnam, a very nice hotel. The rate is ca. $150 per night after special discount, but more than US$180 for ordinary guests.
barbie~~
barbie~~
But dont feel like you are bound to Gangnam - transportation is really goo so being a few subway stations away is no issue at all for the 3 visits at Yesons. Its not liek you will be there every day ;) - But if you can, avoid getting a hotel where you have to switch subways a lot - ideally not at all. The transfers between subway lines are crazy in Seoul. sometimes it is a 10 minute walk and feels like you walked the whole distance to the next station on the same line :P ;)
I went to the Princess hotel as they are the hotel you can book via Yeson. 80$ US a night, it is a queen bed and a full bath with a TV and small sitting area. No view, maybe a small window you can use to get fresh air, heat and A/C worked fine. The rooms are smoking so you will have cigarette smell, and the beds are hard, but overall they are clean and comfortable enough. There is a fried chicken place across the street, a Starbucks a block away, 2 pho and 1 teriyaki place 2 blocks, a Dominos Pizza 3 blocks, and a little market right next door. There is also a restaurant in the same building but I went in there twice to eat and they never looked at me or acted like I was even there, so I quit trying. There are also several other restaurants I didn't try right within a short distance. The clinic is 5 minute walk away and it is easy to get to and from your appointments. There is a subway connector near Yeson so it is also just minutes from the Princess. Yeson will book the room for you if you ask, and I was able to get a ride from Inchon to the hotel when I arrived as part of the package. I had to pay about 65$ US to get a taxi to the airport when I left.
Oh. I thin I prefer Phil house then. $50 a night and probably the same sort of beds, but a kitchen with a wasching machine and fridge and a big window - and the price is for a room with two beds... and it is non smoking.
Geez - I could not have stayed in a smoking room post VFS when coughing is prohibited. Thats not cool.
Quote from: anjaq on March 20, 2015, 04:07:25 PM
Oh. I thin I prefer Phil house then. $50 a night and probably the same sort of beds, but a kitchen with a wasching machine and fridge and a big window - and the price is for a room with two beds... and it is non smoking.
Geez - I could not have stayed in a smoking room post VFS when coughing is prohibited. Thats not cool.
ha! It smelled but there wasn't actually smoke in the room and after a day or two it was fine, I either got used to it or it went away. I figured I would be spending the extra money in travel costs staying so far from the clinic. The room at princess has a fridge and I bought necessities next door and kept them in the fridge so I could eat my meals in the room. It also had hot and cold filtered water for making tea or ramen or what ever I needed hot water for. I wish it had a microwave, that world have made it much easier. All that said, your place sounds better if you don't mind public transportation or talking to cab drivers.
Ah well - subway was ok - took just 20 minutes or so and cost about $1 per trip. Taxi cost $10 per trip and was maybe even a bit slower. I had a card from Yeson and one from the phil house to show the taxi driver, they typed that into the nav system and that was it.
Phil house has a 24/7 store right next to it, which was cool. Great supply for aloe drink, ice cream, yoghurt and other little things. The house had a common kitchen with hot and cold water from a machine, i suppose it was filtered. and you could get kitchen supplies from there and use them in the room. The temperature control in the room was not easy though and i am glad we did not need air conditioning, whcih was right over one of the beds, and the toilet was always clogged so easily - but that seems a common issue in Seoul. I saw a lot of places like restaurants that asked their customers to put the used toilet paper in a wastebin and not into the toilet.
that aloe drink right after surgery was heavenly! Yeah I am not advocating Princess just tossing out info and my own rationale. It sounds like it would be cheaper at philhouse
Yes. But Philhouse was having issues as well. No real breakfast (bad coffee, toast, jam and not enough plates), the toilet was annoying, the rooms could not be darkened properly, so I was glad to have brought something to covere my eyes when planning to sleep long and they only vacuumed the room twice - no one cleaned the bathroom in the 11 nights, but maybe that was in part because we were almost always there until noon. Oh an one has to bring the towels down to the reception to have them changed and also to get more toilet paper. The towels were really small too, so I wish I had brought a big towel for showering. On the upside again you can get free laundry detergent for the washing machine in the room and you get a thingy to dry the clothes on, so you can bring half as many clothes as normally since you can actually wash them. So - it all has advantages and disadvantages. I wonder what you get if you pay like $120 for a night in Seoul.
Quote from: anjaq on March 20, 2015, 04:07:25 PM
Oh. I thin I prefer Phil house then. $50 a night and probably the same sort of beds, but a kitchen with a wasching machine and fridge and a big window - and the price is for a room with two beds... and it is non smoking.
Geez - I could not have stayed in a smoking room post VFS when coughing is prohibited. Thats not cool.
I have been back and forth about this and I may end up with Phil House. Hard bed is not a concern. My current bed is pretty hard anyway, not your typical soft American hotel bed. It's a box spring mattress. Non smoking is important to me.