VFS Concern

[Melissa Forever]

So I am planning on getting VFS through Yeson. I have all but booked the appointment, which I would like to do in the next couple of days at the latest.

But I have concerns. Not of losing my voice, being injured, or going to Korea. My concern is that my voice may end up too high. I did some resting voice recordings for Yeson and they came back saying my fundamental frequency is 189hz. This is seems wrong to me, but if they are correct, I am worried that with the increase from VFS and then resonance training afterwards, it might end up like Minnie Mouse. When I do analysis through PRAAT, it comes up around 150hz (which has gone up 10-15hz since I starting this process). If my fundamental frequency is  150hz, then I would think I am in the perfect range to get the surgery done.

Any thoughts? Anyone else have this experience? Does anyone have a link or a voice sample to someone who has a 150 or 180 fundamental frequency?

Melissa

[anjaq]

I think you can do several things. One is to do a really really relaxed (no pitch inrease, no "trained voice") reading of the "rainbow passage" with a high quality mocrophone and send the voice file to Dr Kim for analysis. The other is to go to a local voice specialist and let them analyze your fundamental frequency. If all that is no option, be assured that Dr Kim will do a thorough voice analysis when you are there and will tell you if you would end up too high. I know he sent some people home who had a too high fundamantal freqency and would have ended up in an artificially high range. (Which is of course annoying after the patient doing all the planning and preparations, but better than having a bad result, right?). He also voiced his concern with me that I should not use my trained voice anymore post op, since that was at 180 Hz before and would later be in the 260 Hz range , which he considers too high for my built. You can look for the Videos of Livvy here in the forum , or the ones from J-Mi - they both have gained a bit more in pitch than the usual 75Hz, but they liked it that way, they are in the 230-260 Hz range and it seems to fit them and does not sound like minnie Mouse - I think you would have to really mess up as a surgeon to have someone sound like Minnie Mouse.

[Melissa Forever]

Thanks Anjaq. I will look up the video of Livvy. I have seen J-Mi's.

I did send Jesse a high quality recording of my voice using PRAAT reading rainbow passage. That is what they based thier 189hx fundamental frequency on.

[anjaq]

Oh ok. So it was Dr Kim who said you have a female fundamental frequency? Then I assume, he told you that he would not readily advise for VFS? But PRAAT said 150 Hz to the same recording? That would be a bit weird... Maybe you can share the recording here and we can check it out?

is what I meant plus the videos of J-Mi  
They both say they have a speaking pitch of 230-260 Hz on average and I dont think at all they sound like "Minnie Mouse" - LOL - but at least from Livvy, I know she is not tall and not big , so that voice fits her. For me, it would not fit, Dr Kim takes this into consideration and he also can deliberately do a less pronounced increase in the pitch. Amy had that done as she wanted to still sing in the Alto range, so her increase is probably a bit less than with others.
Was the recording with the 190 Hz base pitch your natural and relaxed pitch? No effort at all? Basically close to what it was pre-transition? Another question is, do you take Spiro? Spiro can apparently temporarily (until it is no longer used because one had Orchie or GRS) increase pitch of the voice, this would then distort the analysis of the natural voice.

[Melissa Forever]

Thanks anjaq,

I also sent a recording to Jesse not using rainbow passage. I noticed a big difference in the pitch of my voice between the two files. I think I might know where the disconnect in this whole process; I practiced on rainbow passage too much. I think that when I read rainbow passage it is increasing my pitch without me even trying or noticing. I have linked the two audio files that I sent.

Rainbow Passage: https://app.box.com/s/syputf9i2cw6nc7o3zqmy6xicqf5uhxl
General Rambling: https://app.box.com/s/7y7z3txzxnr33l5v5ugzwo5nbhout1wy

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Melissa

[anjaq]

Yes - definitely reading generally, but especially reading that rainbow passage for the 1000th time will make your pitch appear higher - Better choose a different one then for the assessment. When I was in the Yeson clinic, they noticed this effect apparently when I read the rainbow passage without really having to read it from the paper, so they gave me a different text for the computer analysis. Something about a grandfather... I assume that this was to make me read something with a natural pitch and not some fake pitch that I slip into when reading that rainbow passage again and again.

[Melissa Forever]

Thanks for the reply anjaq. I emailed Yeson to see if they had another passage I could read to do the analysis before I book the surgery. I listened to J-Mi's 3 month post op voice and personally I would find that to be too high. I am 6ft tall and 34 years old. I just don't think it would fit me at all.

[ImagineKate]

You can try to play around with your voice recordings in Audacity and increase the pitch there to see how you like it. It won't be perfect but you'll get a very rough idea. Personally I'm at 133Hz right now but I would like to get 215-220 if possible. They said with the average increase they could do 205 but we'll see.

I am 5'6" and 36 years old (but I feel like I am 21!)

[anjaq]

Ok, I checked your recordings. Audibly, the rainbow passage is definitely higer in pitch and also seems to have a more feminine speaking pattern - more voice melody, less vocal fry. PRAAT gives me something between 150 and 180 Hz depending on which section I take out, some are even at 140 Hz. So I would guess your F0 to be 140 Hz from that and the other parts are probably more elevated because of the reading. The other voice file was more natural, also more monotonous, so I think it probably reflects more your natural fundamental frequency, whicn in this case seems to be around 135 Hz, basically in the same range as many here who had VFS, including myself (according to Dr Kim at least - my own analysis gave me 110-120 Hz - I try to take out the very high parts of a reading because they do not reflect my fundamental frequency ). What is very audible in both recordings though, especially in the one without the reading, is that you have a lot of vocal fry use (it sounds like a buzzing sound). This is normally a male characteristics, even though in the past year or so it has somehow become a fashion in women. However this drags down the frequency in  a very low range when it happens. Lower than as if other women use their vocal fry. So i think you should avoid this, especially if you want to have a clean recording of your F0 - the 140 Hz section in the rainbow passage was one that had vocal fry in it - if I look just at that small section with the vocal fry, it even goes way lower.

So maybe you should do a reading of any other text - maybe some other book section or some technical manual (those are good because they do not promote too much voice melody ) in a relaxed way and then use this to determine your F0 and also send it to Yeson.

[anjaq]

Well yes - I would not want J-Mi's pitch either. I am 5'8 but of heavy built, so it would not fit to me. I hope I will end up in the range Dr Kim predicted, around 200 Hz, I dont care if it is a bit lower even, 180 would still be ok, below that I would kind of be disappointed i think.

But again - its kind of tricky to get a good fundamental frequency measurement. But be assured that Dr Kim will find it and that you can talk to him about your goal in pitch increase. A friend of mine was with me for voice analysis alone and he looked not only at the numbers from the computer but also listened to her and said her real F0 is lower than in the recordings and that she would, despite trying to be relaxed, still use an elevated voice, but it is one that comes to her without effort and naturally, even if the F0 would be lower. So he advised against surgery for her, since she needs no effort to get a good voice despite the lower F0. So he certainly can distinguish between a F0 from computer readings and the real one - but of course you would have to be there and for now it makes sense to try and find out how it is beforehand, so you know if you should go there at all or not.

[ImagineKate]

This is one big reason why I'm not doing training beforehand. I want to get a good, clean baseline (to use a pun) so dr Kim can treat me appropriately.

[Melissa Forever]

Thanks for taking the time to listen to the recordings and analyzing them anjaq! You rock!

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is vocal fry?

[anjaq]

There is a funny video that explains it inthe context of how many girls nowadays seem to play with vocal fry. She demonstrates it in the video though : www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsE5mysfZsY

In your rainbow recording you can hear it starting at Second 36. In PRAAT you can see the blue line (pitch indicator) bottoming out for some milliseconds. It is a kind of buzzing, snarly, creaky sound.

[ImagineKate]

Thanks for taking the time to listen to the recordings and analyzing them anjaq! You rock!

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is vocal fry?

Think of it as a "grovely" kind of voice. It sounds like bacon, hence the term "fry."

[ImagineKate]

Thanks anjaq,

I also sent a recording to Jesse not using rainbow passage. I noticed a big difference in the pitch of my voice between the two files. I think I might know where the disconnect in this whole process; I practiced on rainbow passage too much. I think that when I read rainbow passage it is increasing my pitch without me even trying or noticing. I have linked the two audio files that I sent.

Rainbow Passage: https://app.box.com/s/syputf9i2cw6nc7o3zqmy6xicqf5uhxl
General Rambling: https://app.box.com/s/7y7z3txzxnr33l5v5ugzwo5nbhout1wy

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Melissa

Rainbow sounds pretty gender ambiguous. I think your inflection is good as well. Anja is correct you do have a bit of vocal fry. A lot of people are doing it now because they heard Kim Kardashian talking like that and they all want to be like her... 

[anjaq]

I am not sure that Kim Kardashian is the reason in this case, is it? I never saw her before and had some of that voice stuff going on apparently. I try to watch it now.  Well I tried to watch it some weeks ago. Now I dont have to - LOL

[ImagineKate]

Oh I agree.

[Melissa Forever]

I heard back from Jesse and I submitted her this recording. PRAAT is giving it an average of 148hz I believe.

https://app.box.com/s/se4uh93s5vqdq3sqvjt7xf9ydp20w1y8

I am glad they will do another analysis, I am sure it will come back much lower which will make me feel better. It's funny anjaq, after watching that video I can hear the vocal fry all the time when I record now Just another thing to work on after the surgery

[ImagineKate]

Yeah that one sounds lower, but higher than mine.

This is mine with a tired voice. The passage is "comma gets a cure" which is the standard IDEA passage now.

https://app.box.com/s/grjdrp3caw1jf438ik7d2yfoxtal4t0v

Praat says 127Hz.

[anjaq]

You can start to work on getting rid of the vocal fry at any time. it never hurts...