warning long post!! ive wondered this a lot lately, and I hope me asking this doesn't sound at all like homophobic or ignorant or something as that's not the intent at all.. It just seems that going by statistics and experience of what I've seen most trans women are either partly or exclusively attracted to women.. I have always only liked guys and still do and since transitioning consider myself straight but before I tried identifying as gay for a year or two but it never felt right and the more gay guys I met or the more I found out about how much most gay guys don't want to be considered the "girl" in a relationship and even more so how most are very turned off by feminine looking or acting males the more I realized it wasn't me... I needed it to be about gender too and when I came out it was also cause I wanted to wear makeup and dress femininely but just doing that was never enough either...I guess im just wondering cause trans women have been found repeatedly to have female brain structure...they often have intersex conditions as well but yet the majority of cis women are only or mostly into men wheras the majority of trans women are mostly or exclusively into women..once again im not trying to say lesbian trans women are less women anymore than lesbian cis women and I don't think that either...I just find it hard for me to always relate or fit into the trans community cause many girls have married women and had kids and yet I cant fit in with the gay community cause well there men with nothing else in common besides liking men and retaining "male" parts... as far as straight women...they haven't had the same life really so its still hard there too to feel a lot in common...basically I feel like as a heterosexual trans woman your too straight to really fit in in the lgbt community but yet too "gay" (in lack of a better term) to fit into the straight community while being open about yourself..what are your thoughts?
well, for me personally I consider myself Bi. I just like to find someone to be with . I've always been attracted to both men and woman. I'm older so I've had had my share of being intimate .I just want to enjoy the company of another, but my most important focus is my presentation as my true gender regardless of whether I ever find a companion either mail or female. I really have no interest having the value of my existence being determined by whether or not I'm with someone although life can be quite comforting sharing with someone else.
My thoughts - I guess gender and sexuality are different things again. I didn't understand that in my old life, but it makes sense now.
I've been really surprised to find out how many guys are actually open to trans-girls. It's far more than I thought.
I thought it would be forever before I got close to a guy. But they seem to have other plans! :~o
What are you basing your assumption on? I've read that being attracted to women is far more common in people that transition later in life than it is in transsexuals in their teens/twenties
I think there is a component of age, when I person transitions. If you are at or around puberty, then what your sexuality is, is not completely set. From what I see, people who transition roughly around that time, seem to follow cis-gender sexuality percentages. When you are a bit older, while sexual preference may change, it is a bit more set.
Well, the OP wasn't that long. I'll try to keep the reply from being too long. :)
First of all, let's get our numbers right. The largest survey of trans* people ever done is the National Transgender Discrimination Survey. Fortunately, it contains demographics, including a breakdown of sexual orientation of mtg persons. Survey sez:
Bisexual: 31%
Gay/lesbian/same gender: 29%
Heterosexual: 23%
Queer: 7%
Asexual: 7%
Other: 2%
So the data do not seem to suggest that the majority of transwomen are, in fact, attracted exclusively or predominantly to women. If we were to assume that all the bi people lean toward women, we would get 60%, a majority, leaning in that direction. But there is no basis for making that assumption.
Admittedly, asking this question is complicated by the fact that the answer depends greatly on what gender is viewed as "same" or "opposite." Depending on many variables, including state of transition, among others, these questions can get confusing even for trans* people and may influence the data. However, there is nothing here to suggest exclusive or primary attraction to women.
But what is clear is that "other than straight" is drastically over represented compare to the general population. The Williams Institute estimates that about 3.4% (don't hold me to that because I'm going solely on memory, but I think it's roughly correct) of the general population is LGB. (The oft quoted figure of 10% actually originates from an article in the 1970s or 1980s in which the author speculated that as many as 10% of people might be gay. It has no factual basis). So clearly the transwoman population is vastly more likely than the general public to identify as LGB. So why?
Perhaps part of the answer lies in the fact that most men are straight. Whatever makes people trans* may often not affect a person's sexual orientation. So basically it operates such that instead of a cisgender male, the person is a transwoman. But they still have the mental/neurological equipment for sexual orientation to be a straight man I f they were not trans*. And since they are trans*, but they still have the same sexual orientation as a straight man, they are attracted to women. I hope that made sense.
But let's build on this a bit more. Not everyone experiences sexuality as being about one gender or the other. For example, for some people, the experience is more about "sameness" or "differentness." For those people, if they live as male and are attracted to women, they may find the attraction switches as they go through transition. Why? Because women are attractive to such a person because they are different rather than because of being women. The more this person goes through transition, the more women become "the same" and lose their attractiveness. To the extent that sexual orientation has any meaning for me, I'm like this by the way. "Different" is what attracts me, so my gender preference switched in transition. A person whose attraction is to "the same" would experience a shift in their attraction for the same reason.
Those are some thoughts off the top of my head. I think what it comes down to is "it's complicated."
Personally I have been with Women and Men, and I have no strong feelings towards either. I'm more into someone for who they are rather then what they have in the pants and from a sex standpoint, I don't really care about that too much or worry about it. :P
*Transparency* I am currently long term with another woman.
Well, I'm 36 so maybe my experience might shed some light a bit. I've always known that I was a girl inside as long as I could remember. Funny thing is, I was always attracted to females even at a young age. I guess I was confused but since the whole transgendered thing was totally foreign to me (especially as I was growing up), I've just accepted that I was a man and had to do man things. I think because we're born male with a large part of our brains being female, that takes a toll on the psyche. Also, as mentioned before, sexuality and gender identity are disparate and unrelated.
I've always believed that sexuality was a spectrum with many people falling somewhere closer to one side or the other:
Homosexuality ______________|______________Heterosexuality
Also, I think because it is so ingrained into men that if they have any inkling of homosexual thoughts or anything, they must be gay and therefore, they become ridiculed by friends or whatever. So men tend to pretend that they are 100% straight, even though they might not totally feel that way or fit into that spectrum.
lol, sorry, back on topic.
Honestly, I think because I was always attracted to women, even during transition, I doubt my sexuality will shift although I might be more open to it as I'm already bucking the trend, you know, being trans and all. Also, even though I'm transitioning later in life, I wouldn't trade it for the world, know why? Because if I transitioned in my teens, I wouldn't have my daughter in my life. :D
I think this is sort of an interesting subject from my perspective... I always identified as straight before transitioning, and I never really felt any strong attraction to men (except that one time I saw a friend in grade school naked and stared at him a little too long...). But most of the time I didn't actually feel that strong of an attraction to women either. I would look at pictures of naked girls sometimes, and I would usually enjoy it, but I didn't really like there to be any actual sex involved. Having a guy in the picture just grossed me out too much. It really was more about the idea of seeing of female body and being able to imagine myself in that body that I found attractive. Seeing a male body, which is the thing I always hated having, was always a huge turnoff. ...but then again, I also liked looking at something called futanari, which is more or less the anime version of a naked hermaphrodite. I actually did like the idea of being with someone who had a penis, just not on an ugly male body. And well, now that my body isn't quite as much of an ugly male body as it used to be, I am a lot more open to being with a guy. But I honestly don't want any sort of a sexual relationship with the parts I have now, so I may never end up having that experience. Anyway, I think that's the way it is for a lot of MTF people. It's hard to find qualities that repulse you about yourself attractive in another person. Transitioning at a young age probably helps with that, because you never get the full experience of having an adult male body.
I'm straight too and it was something baffling my mind in the beginning when I use to see trans women married with other women and have kids and with time I got to learn that trans come in different shades and tones.
Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 25, 2015, 11:54:44 PM
Well, the OP wasn't that long. I'll try to keep the reply from being too long. :)
First of all, let's get our numbers right. The largest survey of trans* people ever done is the National Transgender Discrimination Survey. Fortunately, it contains demographics, including a breakdown of sexual orientation of mtg persons. Survey sez:
Bisexual: 31%
Gay/lesbian/same gender: 29%
Heterosexual: 23%
Queer: 7%
Asexual: 7%
Other: 2%
So the data do not seem to suggest that the majority of transwomen are, in fact, attracted exclusively or predominantly to women. If we were to assume that all the bi people lean toward women, we would get 60%, a majority, leaning in that direction. But there is no basis for making that assumption.
Admittedly, asking this question is complicated by the fact that the answer depends greatly on what gender is viewed as "same" or "opposite." Depending on many variables, including state of transition, among others, these questions can get confusing even for trans* people and may influence the data. However, there is nothing here to suggest exclusive or primary attraction to women.
But what is clear is that "other than straight" is drastically over represented compare to the general population. The Williams Institute estimates that about 3.4% (don't hold me to that because I'm going solely on memory, but I think it's roughly correct) of the general population is LGB. (The oft quoted figure of 10% actually originates from an article in the 1970s or 1980s in which the author speculated that as many as 10% of people might be gay. It has no factual basis). So clearly the transwoman population is vastly more likely than the general public to identify as LGB. So why?
Perhaps part of the answer lies in the fact that most men are straight. Whatever makes people trans* may often not affect a person's sexual orientation. So basically it operates such that instead of a cisgender male, the person is a transwoman. But they still have the mental/neurological equipment for sexual orientation to be a straight man I f they were not trans*. And since they are trans*, but they still have the same sexual orientation as a straight man, they are attracted to women. I hope that made sense.
But let's build on this a bit more. Not everyone experiences sexuality as being about one gender or the other. For example, for some people, the experience is more about "sameness" or "differentness." For those people, if they live as male and are attracted to women, they may find the attraction switches as they go through transition. Why? Because women are attractive to such a person because they are different rather than because of being women. The more this person goes through transition, the more women become "the same" and lose their attractiveness. To the extent that sexual orientation has any meaning for me, I'm like this by the way. "Different" is what attracts me, so my gender preference switched in transition. A person whose attraction is to "the same" would experience a shift in their attraction for the same reason.
Those are some thoughts off the top of my head. I think what it comes down to is "it's complicated."
I find your response really interesting...it does really make sense for a lot of the trans community but not for me specifically or other straight trans women.. and its interesting what you say about being attracted to sameness or differentness because I guess I've always looked at men as very different from me even before I transitioned...so ya its gotta be really complicated and the more I think about it the more it doesn't make sense
I've always been bi and when I was young I could never understand why most people seemed to be so rigidly orientated in their sexual identity. These days I'm solely woman attracted mostly because I've had so many negative experiences with men, up to and including rape and I'm simply not interested in considering them as trustworthy sexual beings in any shape or form.
All this is moot of course because I've made solemn promises of Chasity and I'm not focused on wanting a life companion anymore, but I freely admit I am only human and flesh and blood and sometimes my eyes stray and my thoughts go where I don't want them to.
also I guess for some people gender and sexuality aren't connected really or else there wouldn't be pansexuals, femme lesbians or butch gay guys or lesbian trans women...but for me they have always been pretty intertwined...like for example imagining I some how became attracted to women I don't think being with one would make me feel at all feminine and therefore I would feel uncomfortable and unsatisfied as to me part of having a satisfactory sexual relationship is being seen as desirable for who and what you are, and that's why it never would of worked out with me and a gay guy...they wouldn't make me feel desirable as a girl and they wouldn't of seen me that way... basically my mind has always been like Im feminine so I feel attracted to masculine people... idk but it is pretty connected in my mind personally
I find it beyond comprehension how anyone, male or female, can find a male attractive in any way. Even as a young child I thought the same because I remember wondering when I was around five or so if, when women looked at men they actually saw women. (I'm being serious here by the way).
I rememeber seven years ago having a therapy session and discussing my sexuality.
The question was simple: who are you attracted to, both physically and sexually?
Up to this point in my transition, I'd never been with a guy.
I recall saying:
"Well, I'm not attracted to women sexually. My ex wife and I slept in separate bedrooms for last six years of our marriage. Shoot, we didn't even have sex on our honeymoon. We didn't have any kids per se, but we did adopt."
"I'm not attracted to other trans for some reason. Maybe because I'm dealing with enough poop, plus it'd be just dating another woman."
"So I guess that leaves men. I'm intrigued by guys, they find me attractive, I like how they treat me, and I feel they really appreciate what lengths I go to. So maybe that makes me gay, I don't know."
My therapist said "Nina, you're not gay. You're a woman, you like men. You're hetero."
So I've dated men exclusively, am engaged to a wonderful guy - he's a cop. He's known me pre and post op.
I reflect back on twenty years married to a woman, dating women....it was a facade....to cover up who I was. Until I came out, I finally got to express who I was really attracted to, yet I never once thought I'd be with a guy. It just happened.
Oh my, I stopped by Uni today to say hello to the LGBT gang.
I was last there a year ago, just before I began transition.
Both then and today, a very pretty Scottish lesbian girl was around.
She didn't look twice at the old me.
But today she was unravelling her hair, smiling and blinking at me ...
Goodness. I haven't fancied girls for a while ... but I think I might be interested! ... :~o
What EvolvingBeauty said. Until I started perusing the posts I was unaware.. It's life.
I feel some of that attraction would also be the idea of wanting to be the woman not to women if that makes sense. Just going about what I have read and guessing. I am pre everything atm but I think I am getting a handle on what my sexuality really is even though been a virgin for 40 odd years lol.
How I feel now is that as I accept that I am indeed trans is that I am not attracted to men but their part, would like to have sex as a woman with a man but emotionally more attracted to females. What does that make me at the moment well a mess really but I don't know how to put it other then I don't feel gay yet attracted to the part. Basically trying to be open and see what happens after all when in transition what really is gay (opposite attractions) it kinda gets fuzzy. I can only guess that I am really a woman that is straight yet in a male body now. In the future things could change as far as sexuality or they don't. Just a best guess for me is I might get attracted to males sexually and females for emotional companionship more. Yes I admire the beauty of the female body but don't want to have sex with said body and I guess there in lies the truth its complicated.
Seems roughly evenly mixed in my personal experience. And I've certainly gotten plenty of flack amongst the trans community for being an MTF lesbian, so I doubt we're any sort of significant majority, since I'm clearly seen as abnormal by many.
As for why there may be more diversity in sexual orientation among trans people... Well, I suppose it could be due to a lot of factors. Maybe trans people are more likely to be open to exploring/admitting their sexualities than a cis person would be. Maybe our condition is one that comes with a higher likelihood of also being LG or B than the cis population. Maybe because of our unique experience with gender, more of us see gender and sexual or romantic attraction differently. For example, I see male and female in terms of brain rather than body, and am attracted to people with female brains regardless of what sex the rest of their body indicates. I think, when it comes down to it, the answer may be that sexuality is a lot more complicated and nuanced than most people make it out to be, and as people who have had to deal with the complexity of gender first hand, we tend to be more open to those complexities.
Just my opinion.
Im mostly "straight" but being trans and so far at least getting treated worse than most cis women do its easy to be somewhat turned off by men... Id love to find one that actually loved and respected me as a woman and person didn't just treat me like crap and think Im just there to be used, just a curiosity on the down low solely for their pleasure and then rejected... The idea of being a post op lesbian or in a poly 3 way arrangement with a cis couple has a lot of appeal... Women just seem to be kinder and gentler, less focused solely on their needs and much more sensual than the average man ;)
Quote from: Isabelle on March 25, 2015, 11:07:20 PM
What are you basing your assumption on? I've read that being attracted to women is far more common in people that transition later in life than it is in transsexuals in their teens/twenties
This could be because of life situations.
I'm really not attracted to women anymore now. I mean they look nice, but I see them and I think, "oh how cute, I like what she's wearing, maybe I can try that look." Not, "Oh damn I wanna be in bed with her."
However I am married to a woman and I love her, but this is despite her gender, not because of it.
Many older trans women are that way.
However I know a few older ones who are heterosexual, and they have been married too, some with kids (like me).
Deep down inside I have always fantasized being with a guy. Always. However as a guy I could never be gay. Being gay may be cool for some people and I really don't have a problem with gay people in general but it's not for me. So I dated women, married two of them and had children with one.
I'm attracted to women because I find them preferential over men, but from my experience while it's much more evenly split than the general populace, I'd say a majority of trans women lean towards men.
To confirm what some others have said, it's largely an age thing.
Trans women who are exclusively attracted to men tend to transition earlier, and have an easier time blending in and honestly most never show up on boards like this or other trans events, they just go live their live :)
Well there is some decent medical research which indicates that a lot more women than men have some degree of latent bisexuality. It has been hypothesised that women are naturally programmed to be flexible in their attractions so that in the absence of a suitable male they can still form tightly bonded family units with each other. This theory goes on to suggest that this capability lies latent in almost all women, but that most do not express it largely for social reasons. Thus the exceptions would be those women who are NOT flexible in this way. Using this research I could turn this on its head and ask "why are some transwomen not bisexual?"
The point I'm actually trying to make is that these sorts of questions are usually not terriby helpful, because they often come loaded with value judgements about moraility, social acceptability, and what might be considered as normal. Indeed if I was being very unkind I could even wonder if the hidden agenda behind such a question might be "are a lot transwomen actually sexually wired up more like hetrosexual males?" Or to put it another way are some transwomen more "genuinely female" than others? Which of course would be a rather unhelpful, not to say hurtful thing to ask.
So personally I think there are some questions which are probably better left unasked and/or unanswered, this is probably one of them.
Oh and PS - I've always been bisexual... transition had nothing to do with that at all. I was bi in my teens, it didn't change by my early twenties when I had transitioned.
I was actually more bisexual prior to HRT. Slowly I've changed to be more of a lesbian. I find male behavior unattractive, although physically I appreciate both. My erotica preferences have settled pretty solidly on lesbian. For my own relationships, (theoretically, as I dearly love Sweetie) the body doesn't matter to me, but the brain and behavior has to be feminine.
nice picture
Me? That's me 40 years ago.
My earliest recollection of thinking I should have been a girl must have been around the time I was 9 years old. Possibly even younger but I can't be sure. However, I have never been attracted to guys.
If I could transition I would still want to be with my :angel: wife :-* :angel: and can't see me having any sexual >:-) interest in men. It would just be nice to be able to live as a woman in all respects. However, I might possibly consider trying sex with a guy given the right opportunity just to see what it is like.
Well, personally I think my gender transition has helped me realize that gender really isn't something that matters to me when I think about love. I thought I was a gay guy during high school; since my transition (and staeting HRT, this should debunk the whole BS "HRT changes your orientation" myth) I've mostly dated women. It doesn't have so much to do with what sex or gender I prefer, it's just that A. I happen to dislike excessive body/facial hair, and B. I tend to be more compatible with women personality-wise. I have a hard time dating people who won't be willing to respect the fact that I want to be equals, and men-well, in our society it's hard to find a man who isn't intimidated by someone who wants to be his PARTNER, not his GIRLFRIEND. I don't know. If I passed a bit better (hopefully I will once my hair grows out) I'd probably date more men, but it's just rarer for me to find a guy I'm into. It's really not about sexual orientation for me though...it's just who I tend to *click* with. I should probably add that I'm pretty much asexual; I'll have sex if someone wants it, but it doesn't really interest me.
So, yeah-transitioning has made me more aware of just how inconsequential gender really is, and I've just sort of...disregarded it. I've fallen in love with guys, I've fallen in love with girls, and I've fallen in love with folks who aren't either. After what I've been through, the differences seem like pretty small ones.
I really don't know why I'm like what I am as far as my sexual interests are , but men really turn me on ever since around 6 or 7. I had a boy friend at 6 and it felt good. I love all aspects of women too. I think my brain is perfectly divided between my attraction for men and women. I fantasize an incredible amount about being with men as a woman, but I hate the idea of gay sex. I can see being with a woman , but I don't know if I view it as gay sex.
I think that it's somewhat unrealistic to seek a man that can love one of us as a cis-woman.
If a guy can, that is great. He's a pretty unique man in that case.
But I believe that what we really need, is to be loved as a transsexual.
One needs to be loved for *all* that they are. If it is an image of us that is loved, that is superficial, and cannot last.
Quote from: SarahBoo on March 26, 2015, 09:28:27 PM
I think that it's somewhat unrealistic to seek a man that can love one of us as a cis-woman.
If a guy can, that is great. He's a pretty unique man in that case.
But I believe that what we really need, is to be loved as a transsexual.
One needs to be loved for *all* that they are. If it is an image of us that is loved, that is superficial, and cannot last.
Can't we just be loved as PEOPLE? Or is finding someone who flat out doesn't care that unreasonable.
Yea I don't want to be loved because Im a ->-bleeped-<-, "transition" implies M to F, not M to T which means the goal for me anyway is to be loved and thought of as a woman ;) Of course I haven't found a guy yet who wants anything more than to use me for sex so there's that :( The only way I could imagine that is if it was with another trans woman but even then I doubt she would want to be thought of as anything less than a woman either... Im not really attracted to other pre or non op trans women though... Id think a lesbian relationship between two post op trans women would be pretty rare.... Might be fun though ;)
Of course, I don't mean to be loved for being trans. I mean, to be loved, the other knowing we are trans.
As you can probably gather from my other posts, being open and honest about who and what we are is a big deal to me.
Quote from: Rejennyrated on March 26, 2015, 05:41:24 PM
Well there is some decent medical research which indicates that a lot more women than men have some degree of latent bisexuality. It has been hypothesised that women are naturally programmed to be flexible in their attractions so that in the absence of a suitable male they can still form tightly bonded family units with each other. This theory goes on to suggest that this capability lies latent in almost all women, but that most do not express it largely for social reasons. Thus the exceptions would be those women who are NOT flexible in this way. Using this research I could turn this on its head and ask "why are some transwomen not bisexual?"
The point I'm actually trying to make is that these sorts of questions are usually not terriby helpful, because they often come loaded with value judgements about moraility, social acceptability, and what might be considered as normal. Indeed if I was being very unkind I could even wonder if the hidden agenda behind such a question might be "are a lot transwomen actually sexually wired up more like hetrosexual males?" Or to put it another way are some transwomen more "genuinely female" than others? Which of course would be a rather unhelpful, not to say hurtful thing to ask.
So personally I think there are some questions which are probably better left unasked and/or unanswered, this is probably one of them.
Oh and PS - I've always been bisexual... transition had nothing to do with that at all. I was bi in my teens, it didn't change by my early twenties when I had transitioned.
well I do think your right that women in general are more sexually fluid or less fixated on the physical...but that's different then saying they would equally prefer women or prefer them to men...as far as saying theres a "hidden agenda" behind my question no not really its more of a "i feel like I can't always relate as much or have as much in common to some transwomen and this is one reason why" and also im generally curious..as far as whether im asking if "some trans women are sexually wired up more like heterosexual males" I guess I do kinda wonder that in a sense..wasn't trying to imply that being lesbian makes you any less of a woman but they have done some studies that show that lesbians have perhaps had more testosterone exposure in the whom then straight women as evidenced by brain scans and things like figure digit ratio...this is of interest https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200506/sexuality-your-telltale-fingertips
anyways I don't know why its always a competition about whos more woman in the trans community...im sure some would say im less woman cause im undecided on whether I will get or even want bottom surgery but I don't really care... im me and I feel I am a woman and as long as that's what me my partner and close friends see that's all that matters and it should be the same for lesbian trans women
Quote from: SarahBoo on March 26, 2015, 09:28:27 PM
I think that it's somewhat unrealistic to seek a man that can love one of us as a cis-woman.
If a guy can, that is great. He's a pretty unique man in that case.
But I believe that what we really need, is to be loved as a transsexual.
One needs to be loved for *all* that they are. If it is an image of us that is loved, that is superficial, and cannot last.
agree completely...and I tried making this point in another thread...what it comes down to though is if you see being transsexual or having a penis as making you not "really a woman" than your never going to be happy with someone in a relationship even if your partner thinks of you as a woman simply because you still don't see yourself as a woman and feel being seen as a trans woman makes you less of a woman....if that made any sense at all...
Quote from: Annabolton on March 27, 2015, 07:17:03 AM
agree completely...and I tried making this point in another thread...what it comes down to though is if you see being transsexual or having a penis as making you not "really a woman" than your never going to be happy with someone in a relationship ...
I'm with you there too Anna. Thanks for making me feel less like the odd-one-out! :~D
I sure do not know however it's suprisng to me. I love women friends to shop with, talk about life with, compare recipes with however I've always loved to be with a man. Sometimes I feel out of place here, there seem to be so few members that like men. For me it is so nice to completely enjoy being a woman with a strong man & fully enjoy your feminity.
Quote from: FrancisAnn on March 27, 2015, 08:10:52 AM
I sure do not know however it's suprisng to me. I love women friends to shop with, talk about life with, compare recipes with however I've always loved to be with a man. Sometimes I feel out of place here, there seem to be so few members that like men. For me it is so nice to completely enjoy being a woman with a strong man & fully enjoy your feminity.
ya like it feels like a yin and yang thing...like the other completes you because his qualities are a lot different than yours... but I suppose it could be that way in a same gender relationship too but I often see in the gay community lots of "masculine" gay guys that only like other masculine ones so that's not really how most same gender relationships seem to be but to each there own and no one persons version of reality works for everyone
FrancisAnn, I think it's mostly older trans people are more likely to be lesbians and we're more chatty, but please remember that our sergeant-major, our dear Cindy is as straight as an arrow,... except for her curves! I myself have no problem with men sexually, I just can't have a relationship with one.
p.s.: You have no idea how much I want to call you "Franny Annie"! :D
Quote from: Eva on March 26, 2015, 11:04:01 PM
Yea I don't want to be loved because Im a ->-bleeped-<-, "transition" implies M to F, not M to T which means the goal for me anyway is to be loved and thought of as a woman ;) Of course I haven't found a guy yet who wants anything more than to use me for sex so there's that :( The only way I could imagine that is if it was with another trans woman but even then I doubt she would want to be thought of as anything less than a woman either... Im not really attracted to other pre or non op trans women though... Id think a lesbian relationship between two post op trans women would be pretty rare.... Might be fun though ;)
It's not as rare as you think. I'm in a committed relationship with another trans woman.
As for a lot of other posts in this thread... *sigh* I don't know why I'm even still reading here. So much of this is so alienating and has an undercurrent of the true trans mentality. Before I make my exit, I'd just like to point out to everyone that I'm a lesbian MTF in her twenties (to those of you who have convinced yourselves that this is an age thing. No, we're not rare. I'm not going to go into how misguided I think this assumption is because I'd quickly descend into a frothing rage), and sexual orientation has nothing to do with how feminine a person is. One thing I will
absolutely not stand for is having my femininity called into question, thank you very much, FrancisAnn. I'll have you know that I am one of the girliest girls you'll ever meet, so is my partner, and what gender you love has nothing to do with being able to "fully enjoy your femininity."
Fo myself, I always found myself being attracted to women. However after I started transitioning I started to realize that what I thought was attraction was actually envy/jealousy towards them since they had something that i didn't/couldn't have at the time. After that revelation I've come to realize that I'm very likely Asexual/Demisexual. I've only ever truly been attracted to one person in my life so far and unfortunately it just couldn't work out for us.
Quote from: Dee Walker on March 27, 2015, 08:26:11 AM
FrancisAnn, I think it's mostly older trans people are more likely to be lesbians and we're more chatty, but please remember that our sergeant-major, our dear Cindy is as straight as an arrow,... except for her curves! I myself have no problem with men sexually, I just can't have a relationship with one.
p.s.: You have no idea how much I want to call you "Franny Annie"! :D
Franny Annie is OK with me. I've always loved to be with a man, desired by a man, cooking a nice dinner for a man, enjoying him in bed fully, listening to my voice mail from a man saying how much he loved to be with me & that he was so hard right now for me, bringing me flowers.......... Being a nice sexy attractive woman desired by men is great.
Quote from: Annabolton on March 27, 2015, 07:12:29 AM
anyways I don't know why its always a competition about whos more woman in the trans community...im sure some would say im less woman cause im undecided on whether I will get or even want bottom surgery but I don't really care... im me and I feel I am a woman and as long as that's what me my partner and close friends see that's all that matters and it should be the same for lesbian trans women
Well I did try to word my comments to avoid outright making that accusation, and instead carefully pointed out that it could theoretically be seen in that way. For the record I wasn't aiming that at you. let me explain.
I suppose after 30 years postop I'm just a wee bit cynical because I've seen all these questions go around and around, and not just in the trans community either. I'm a poacher turned game-keeper in that I'm now training as a doctor and for many years worked informally with a previously well known psychiatrist.
So I'm perhaps rather more fully aware than you may be that there was a serious paper in the MEDICAL community, of which I am now a tiny insignificant part, which made just that accusation. From memory it was Blanchard and Zucker, and they were trying to posit the position that any bisexual or lesbian transwomen were in someway not genuine. Happily these are more enlightened times, but I just think its worth remmbering that these questions have in the past been twisted and used in medical evidence against us. That was my point.
cause they're gay?
Quote from: FrancisAnn on March 27, 2015, 10:15:55 AM
Franny Annie is OK with me. I've always loved to be with a man, desired by a man, cooking a nice dinner for a man, enjoying him in bed fully, listening to my voice mail from a man saying how much he loved to be with me & that he was so hard right now for me, bringing me flowers.......... Being a nice sexy attractive woman desired by men is great.
god the things running through my mind right now...
I have always wanted to have one that plays with me. Not just sexually but chasing me around, playing with my hair, pulling pranks on me, etc. One of the BIG regrets I have about not transitioning sooner was not having a boyfriend in my 20s I could hang out with, maybe go clubbing or enjoying stuff and he could be my big teddy bear to hug up at night, AFTER he picks me up and throws me in bed and undresses me... oh my god I think I am melting... gotta go cool off...
I've been in denial about being trans my whole life until the age of 32. I'm 33 now. I can't comprehend why all women aren't lesbians. Guys aren't attractive. Their stereotypical behavior bothers me to know end (yes I know not all guys act that way, but I've known WAY to many). The thought of a guy's junk (mine or not) is super gross. I love girls. I can't see me going any other way. I have a certain curiosity about what it would be like to be with a guy post-op, but I'm so grossed out by everything that it would take to happen that I can't ever see me going through with it.
Ashley,
Four months HRT is nothing. You are just starting the journey.
Before starting HRT and during the 1st year maybe, I used to think similarly to you. Estrogen didn't really start to kick in my brains, and spiro wasn't nearly enough for completely stopping T's opposition to estrogen.
15 moths since I started HRT, I had orchi and t-shave, so technically I am post-op because I no longer produce testosterone like a guy (my free T tests render almost zero every time).
Right after orchi I had huge physical changes, in gaining weight and accumulating fat in more fem areas (although not even close to what I expected, but way different and more drastic than the very little I was changing pre-op).
From that moment on (well, I'd say from the 2nd month post-op and on) I totally viewed and felt things differently. I became asexual at first. The reason for that, I think, is because I was taking the minimum estrogen dose, oral, once daily. Not enough estrogen, so my sex drive was simply gone.
Then about the 2nd year after orchi I met my BF, and I really wasn't interested in men until then. But at that point I wasn't attracted physically to women any more. I saw them as competition and as rivals, or as lucky specimens that I wished I was naturally born as. And I still see them as such today. ZERO physical attraction, but TONS of envy and jealousy, mostly about their physical appearance, as an average.
Also, thanks to my BF, I started increasing my estrogen dose, and taking it sublingually, until I reached full dose. And I also added progesterone to the mix.
Bottom line, I have been post-op and on estradiol full-dose sublingual non-stop since July last year, even though I started HRT in July 2009.
All I am trying to say is that IMO, long-term estrogen completely unopposed by T, at maximum dosage, DOES CHANGE your brains in ways you never imagined it would. What you see now as disgusting and repulsive, and what you see as beautiful, nice and attractive sexually-wise may change some day. I didn't believe that when I read other MTFs mentioning that, when I was just starting HRT and still had my little "T machines". I thought they were just pulling everybody's leg, as you may think I am doing right now right ???.
So let's wait at least a couple of years and see how your brains may change, in case you keep on FULL estrogen dose and you really do block T opposition solely by taking anti-androgens, if that's the case. I mean, if you go at the very least about one year with your body "full tank" of estrogen and 95-99% empty on T, verifying that with blood tests of course, THEN you may be amazed at how different a person you may become at that point, believe me.
Cheers
Bibi B.
Quote from: awilliams1701 on March 27, 2015, 01:02:39 PM
I've been in denial about being trans my whole life until the age of 32. I'm 33 now. I can't comprehend why all women aren't lesbians. Guys aren't attractive. Their stereotypical behavior bothers me to know end (yes I know not all guys act that way, but I've known WAY to many). The thought of a guy's junk (mine or not) is super gross. I love girls. I can't see me going any other way. I have a certain curiosity about what it would be like to be with a guy post-op, but I'm so grossed out by everything that it would take to happen that I can't ever see me going through with it.
Since my body is female now I am attrated to men. But I am still married to my wife. Which is funny when we go out, she is also only attracted to me!
Lara
I know for sure you can find straight trans women you can talk with if you want to, in fact I am one. There is an age gap though, but I am also completely sure that you can find many trans ladies your own age that are straight. I guess that is my point maybe. We can't all relate to each other on every level– age, gender, sexuality, general interests, even transition age differences can kind of make it hard to perfectly understand every single other trans person's struggle, or feel like they can understand yours– but we do share a big common experience that we can all kind of share in and come together on. Sometimes that has to be enough. Cis women can also be great to relate with on everything outside of those feelings of anxiety we may have over transtiton or being trans.
I think it is a regional thing. There are a lot of trans women in my home state (Mississippi). I also lead one of the state support groups. 9/10 of MTF trans in my area are hetero, attracted to men, and consider themselves hetero.
It honestly shocked me that there were more that are attracted to women online because I just never saw that around here. It is almost viewed as taboo among the trans community around here.
Chefskenzie, to me that just means a lot of trans women are feeling excluded where you are. If I showed for a support meeting and I immediately saw that the community had a problem with my sexuality, I'd leave without disclosing. I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but I see sisters suffering without support.
No one's mentioned this yet, but long before anyone even suspected that DES and things like it could cause ->-bleeped-<-, it was known that it caused an increased incidence of homosexuality, both gay and lesbian. This tells me that the incidence of homosexuality among trans people is likely to be higher than the general population. Perhaps not high, but higher.
I haven't ruled out the possibility. However currently I can't even comprehend dating a guy.
Quote from: bibilinda on March 27, 2015, 02:09:58 PM
Ashley,
Four months HRT is nothing. You are just starting the journey.
Before starting HRT and during the 1st year maybe, I used to think similarly to you. Estrogen didn't really start to kick in my brains, and spiro wasn't nearly enough for completely stopping T's opposition to estrogen.
15 moths since I started HRT, I had orchi and t-shave, so technically I am post-op because I no longer produce testosterone like a guy (my free T tests render almost zero every time).
Right after orchi I had huge physical changes, in gaining weight and accumulating fat in more fem areas (although not even close to what I expected, but way different and more drastic than the very little I was changing pre-op).
From that moment on (well, I'd say from the 2nd month post-op and on) I totally viewed and felt things differently. I became asexual at first. The reason for that, I think, is because I was taking the minimum estrogen dose, oral, once daily. Not enough estrogen, so my sex drive was simply gone.
Then about the 2nd year after orchi I met my BF, and I really wasn't interested in men until then. But at that point I wasn't attracted physically to women any more. I saw them as competition and as rivals, or as lucky specimens that I wished I was naturally born as. And I still see them as such today. ZERO physical attraction, but TONS of envy and jealousy, mostly about their physical appearance, as an average.
Also, thanks to my BF, I started increasing my estrogen dose, and taking it sublingually, until I reached full dose. And I also added progesterone to the mix.
Bottom line, I have been post-op and on estradiol full-dose sublingual non-stop since July last year, even though I started HRT in July 2009.
All I am trying to say is that IMO, long-term estrogen completely unopposed by T, at maximum dosage, DOES CHANGE your brains in ways you never imagined it would. What you see now as disgusting and repulsive, and what you see as beautiful, nice and attractive sexually-wise may change some day. I didn't believe that when I read other MTFs mentioning that, when I was just starting HRT and still had my little "T machines". I thought they were just pulling everybody's leg, as you may think I am doing right now right ???.
So let's wait at least a couple of years and see how your brains may change, in case you keep on FULL estrogen dose and you really do block T opposition solely by taking anti-androgens, if that's the case. I mean, if you go at the very least about one year with your body "full tank" of estrogen and 95-99% empty on T, verifying that with blood tests of course, THEN you may be amazed at how different a person you may become at that point, believe me.
Cheers
Bibi B.
I've always been Bi, but after so many years of suffering abuse from males during my first five years or so of my new life some part of me simply made the political decision to no longer be attracted to men.
Honest disclosure warning: When I was homeless back then and only managing to survive I was on the game, - not for long, but let me tell you it was long enough. Warning ends:
The one time I ever found myself attracted to a man post transition, was when I was working in disability employment. I was waiting for one of the women clients on my caseload to arrive and when she did arrive her husband was with her. He was a huge Samoan guy, perfectly sculpted like a god and with the most beautiful gentle and caring nature. Something very ancient and primeval clicked over inside me and it went like this; - I want your babies, give me your babies NOW!
Somehow I got through the appointment and managed to be completely professional though I did need a cup of tea and a bit of sit down afterwards to recover. And that was the only time I've ever wanted a man to take me in his arms right there on the spot and have his way with me.
So I don't know (sigh) Possibly sexual attraction is more about the individual than their gender and if the one you're with makes you happy that's all that counts. Labels are for jam jars.
Actually lady smith you happen to make me think of a possible reason why.
First of this is triggering If taken out of context of what I intended.
Pheromones could be the factor which causes MTF to be more commonly attracted to females rather then males compared to the CIS population. Why do I say this well somewhere our brains would have been effected to be male at least the effects of T which would make sense if most of the CIS population are straight then the pretransitional MTF would be most likely attracted to females. That effect might have a way of sticking around with the variable age to when transition occurred and the variable point on the spectrum the person felt. The hard part if I do get this right some their sexuality does NOT change some it does and even in some ways they feel it has but really just became open to whatever due to transforming. In a way gay does NOT apply to a MTF during transition in a sense because there I assume would be a period of confusion or paradox to what they feel. Basically my generality does not cover the complexity of a highly evolving situation not can any explanation really.
Sorry this Is really just conjecture I cant even say from actual experience so I could be way off but it is a decent thought of how might be.
So, here's a good question to follow up with: generally, we all know it is the ones who identify as gay beforehand (are attracted to men) who transition at a younger age (like I did-I thought I was exclusively into guys, turns out I'm bisexual). Why?
I'm not so sure. I think transitioning early is more an indication of personal awareness and the level of support one has.
I think sexuality can still be very fluid in our adolescence, even early adulthood.
So while I don't think that the time of transition is an indicator of sexuality, I do think that the timing can affect the way one's sexuality develops.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on March 28, 2015, 01:47:09 AM
So, here's a good question to follow up with: generally, we all know it is the ones who identify as gay beforehand (are attracted to men) who transition at a younger age (like I did-I thought I was exclusively into guys, turns out I'm bisexual). Why?
I just assumed that not being gay meant you can't be trans. That's mostly what kept me from doing it, since I had very strong feelings of dysphoria as a teenager, but I never connected the dots between those feelings and being transgender. I just thought it wouldn't make sense that I wanted to be a girl if I wasn't attracted to boys. But I doubt that's all there is to it, because I also know some people strongly identify as the opposite gender before they even start puberty...
Like anything else having to do with sexuality, I think being transgender is a spectrum, and some of us are just farther into the spectrum than others. If you're very deep in the spectrum, it makes sense that you wouldn't be able to tolerate being your birth gender for very long, and would actively seek out alternatives. But if you were less far into it, repression may seem like the path of least resistance (at least for a while), or you may not even feel that strong a strong sense of dysphoria until you reach a certain age. Being gay is probably just something that tends to be more common with people who are deeper in the spectrum.
I guess I'm lucky in some ways. I never had to fight anything. I've always been female since early childhood & always attracted to men. I've never had any mental stress from being "trans" anything. I've always been a women just without some of the physical changes for my body such as a normal depth vagina. I'm older than most of your lucky girls however life is good for me I guess. If you are border line just let go & enjoy being a woman, there is no need to fight anything, a real man will make you feel great if you just relax & enjoy him. Good luck GF's.
Well personally I've always been attracted to women. The only reason I've started transitioning now is because I'm financially stable. When I first came out when I was younger I was a women attracted to women, all HRT has done is made my body match my brain yet I'm still a women attracted to women. Trans or cis to me they are still women to me.
The guys who love me the most tend to be bisexual or gay guys (who were in longterm relationship with women), but bisexual guys like me the most. They also ignore my privates, since they don't enjoy it, but they enjoy "me" if that makes sense. It's kind of hard to describe, since this is what they are getting from me. They are men, and do not want nor need to get penetrated. Why they like me is because I am smaller than them, and I make them feel strong/masculine... plus the racial difference turns them on *I been with more black bisexual men than non-black.... they are damn hot, 6'3-6'4, strong muscles, lean muscles*..
Bisexual men... I am going to find me a nice tall dark and handsome bisexual man. Thank god they exist.
Other than that... I don't like dating gay guys *since I haven't transition yet*, nor have I ever really dated a good-looking gay guy... it's like they are hard to find for me. You would think as a guy guy (since that is how I am perceive) I would easily be dating a gay guy??? I get more action from the real world, from straight men, from bisexual men.... I see the attraction in these guys eyes... and gay guys don't like me most of the time. Like I have to lower my standards for a gay guy to be into me.... like he has to be a bit uglier or something.
Quote from: FrancisAnn on March 28, 2015, 04:46:24 AM
I guess I'm lucky in some ways. I never had to fight anything. I've always been female since early childhood & always attracted to men. I've never had any mental stress from being "trans" anything. I've always been a women just without some of the physical changes for my body such as a normal depth vagina. I'm older than most of your lucky girls however life is good for me I guess. If you are border line just let go & enjoy being a woman, there is no need to fight anything, a real man will make you feel great if you just relax & enjoy him. Good luck GF's.
That sounds an awful lot like you just told a bunch of lesbians to "sleep with a guy, you'll like it." I hope that wasn't what you intended.
This is a good thread with some great exchanges.
Please be mindful of what we post and remember this is a support site with a very diverse population of gender and sexuality.
Also, please be mindful to report offensive posts to moderators and not to directly intercede.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on March 28, 2015, 01:47:09 AM
So, here's a good question to follow up with: generally, we all know it is the ones who identify as gay beforehand (are attracted to men) who transition at a younger age (like I did-I thought I was exclusively into guys, turns out I'm bisexual). Why?
Not true. The only reason I didn't transition younger is because I lived in a heavily transphobic society and would have had zero support from parents. I would have probably been killed too.
My two cents :),
Before my transition I was only attracted to women, I never thought of being with a guy, that was kind of repulsive at the time.
Three months after I started HRT I noticed that somehow my brain had changed and I was looking at guys in a sexual way, I was admiring their bodies and faces and I did not feel anything when looking at women anymore (other than admiring their clothes or shoes) :).
I am post ops now and I have being with some straight guys since then, it has not even crossed my mind about being with a woman at all.
I think, as others have said, that first off I doubt the premise (there's no solid evidence that a "majority" of trans women *are* attracted to women) and that secondly I've personally run into tremendous pressure to identify as straight because "a real woman likes/dates men." Attraction and orientation do not exist in a vacuum; there's a reason that it's easier for a bisexual cis woman to date men, and part of that is societal. So it may be that trans women are being pushed into dating women while society perceives them as men... which forces them to acknowledge a latent attraction to women that cis women are NOT encouraged to discover and explore. Who knows.
Personally, I was bisexual before transition and HRT and I'm bi now, though I 95% preferred women before and these days it's about 75% women/25% men.
Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on March 28, 2015, 01:47:09 AM
So, here's a good question to follow up with: generally, we all know it is the ones who identify as gay beforehand (are attracted to men) who transition at a younger age (like I did-I thought I was exclusively into guys, turns out I'm bisexual). Why?
Maybe there is still that false hope that if they can learn to manage their dysphoria that they can hold onto their heteronormative life? That privilege is hard to give up if you think you may not have to, and even made harder when you know the rejection that would come from letting people in on the truth.
Here's the thing that confused me for a LONG time.... Was I "gay", I donno, I was only attracted to men from what I know now was more of a female perspective ;) "Gay" to me means two men together... I never wanted to be a man with a man and in fact the idea of "topping" a man never had any appeal at all ??? Of course I had the same problem with women, I never felt right in the dominant role ;) Im still very attracted to women, BUT..... The thought of a "gay" relationship with a woman while still pre op just has no appeal to me but its very exciting imagining a lesbian relationship post op :) And yes in my mind THAT would be "gay" LOL So I just consider myself BI, Im mostly into men right now but that may change in the future ;)
Also consider its not uncommon for cis people who are BI to present themselves as "straight" to the world and keep the "gay" part whether acted on or not a closely guarded secret.... Women of course fair or not seem to have much more freedom to "mess around", but that's because men are into that and like it or not it's still a "mans world" ;) So I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of trans women were the same as cis women in that regard.....
I'm seeing a therapist right now to help me through a traumatic divorce. We were together for 24 years and he left me for a "real woman." Well, I think he was just being mean. But back to therapy. She asked me about this. I told her that I honestly don't know. I have a lot of emotional turmoil so perhaps that should be put behind me first. She suggested I might be pansexual. I'd never heard of it. I looked it up and I suppose I could be, along with all of the other "Xsexuals" out there. But I feel asexual. At this point in my life, I think I shall remain single. If a guy wants to take me out, I'll go. But I'll make sure to tell him that I'm not interested in any relationships. Women? I don't have a clue. I might give it a try. I just don't know at the moment and you know what? I don't care.
Cindi
Comments follow.
1. Is there an actual study that says more transwomen are into women than men? I am not aware of one and would enjoy reading the study. (Yes, I'm a nerd and collect trans related scientific study URLs.)
2. I knew I was different even as a child, but due purely to peer pressure, I dated girls (often disastrously) until I fell in love with one and we married. I'd been kissed by boys and didn't object when I was still in school.
3. Again, trying to conform, trying to be who everyone else expected me to be, I pretended to be a strictly heteronormative cisgender male, but I wasn't.
4. Once my wife made it clear we were done (before I even began HRT), I allowed myself to explore, with my therapist, my own sexuality. I discovered (or rather finally admitted to myself) that I am bisexual and that what's between my partner's legs doesn't matter to me nearly as much as what's between my own (and that's getting fixed this year, yay!).
5. The above admission to myself has allowed me to begin really appreciating men and I still appreciate females as well. I find healthy men or women to generally be attractive and definitely give them all further looks. :)
Locked. :police: