Susan's Place Transgender Resources

A year ago I had sexual reassignment surgery. It's changed my life in such amazing ways, but there have been a time or two where my being female hasn't really sat in with some folks, and I've wished I could wear a sign that says, "I have a vagina!"

It's made me wonder, is there one surgery in particular that really thrusts you into femininity and yells that you are female moreso than others? It'd be wonderful to see what people are thinking, and hopefully it might be a resource for people planning procedures! Base this both off of your own personal situation (what would make YOU most feminine, and what might make Jane Doe the most feminine).

There are of course the stereotypes that women have boobs! If you don't have an Adam's apple you're a girl! Your voice is so girly, there's no way you're a guy! But remember there can be only "first" procedure, the most bang for your buck!

If one can afford it.. Full FFS is number one on my list..

Quote from: Dodie on May 11, 2015, 12:56:32 PM
If one can afford it.. Full FFS is number one on my list..

I figured that might be the interesting part, if someone can't afford it (personally I can't), which route would they go first for a single FFS procedure? Would they even go the facial route first? Perhaps assuming they don't want to wait to save up for everything...

I'm at work and I was looking at one of my female collegues (I promise I'm not weird...), and it's so difficult to see which specific area or aspect might make a woman more feminine!

For me, the first two steps will be hair transplants to fill in the temples and a lip lift.  Both are relatively minor, but needed right away.  I'm only a few months into HRT, so I figure these are the best first steps for me and then I can reevaluate down the road and adjust for what hormones haven't.

I've had SRS first, after 12 months of HRT.
It was clear that most people would never see my new anatomy, but I needed to be comfortable with myself.

the only thing I'm shooting for is GRS

Same here GRS.

Quote from: stephaniec on May 11, 2015, 02:00:31 PM
the only thing I'm shooting for is GRS

Tracheal shave for me.

1st - SRS – Fix my birth defect, straight girl looking for a straight man, tired of people looking at my crotch and wondering if I have underwent SRS (women are the worst at doing this!) and SEX! SEX! SEX!

2nd – HRT – Want to look pretty (No you don't have to be on HRT to undergo SRS)

3rd - VOICE  :)  Is it expensive?

4th – Breast Augmentation – Just a C please, did I mention straight girl looking for a straight man?

Agreed. Some days its worse than others. Not to mention I don't like spirolactone and won't need it anymore.

Quote from: Girl Beyond Doubt on May 11, 2015, 01:41:15 PM
I've had SRS first, after 12 months of HRT.
It was clear that most people would never see my new anatomy, but I needed to be comfortable with myself.

You would be amazed how many transitioners come to a conclusion that transition isn't the right thing for them, after a year or two or four living "full-time" and being on hormones. What seems like an overwhelming change and each small step brings a new excitement, often turns into reality, which is living a life as an unpassable trans woman. This isn't a situation for everybody. And not everybody has a chance to afford a full-FFS, which could cost from $20-30,000 with reputable surgeon... and even that alone might not be enough. Too many realize a few years later that they need to be really passable, not just somewhat passable, in order to find a decent job, and to be able to find a life partner, and to be able to be happy. And because hormones and attitude can only do so much, and they don't have a money for expensive surgeries, many realize how much easier it was before. Waiting with SRS until you lived at least for few years (not just one for old wpath' sake) "full-time" is a smart thing. Better be late than sorry.

I had to pick "other" because I think FFS is my major issue presently and more than just one particular feature.  Mostly I would like to do something about my nose and forehead.

Just going by the choices listed, I suppose I've already made my first choice as I'm 70-ish hours into electrolysis so far (with no end in sight.....  meh).

I'm surprised no one said voice.

Voice is the most important thing to me as I love to talk (especially in front of people), I'm very sociable and transition has made me even more outgoing. Not to mention that the voice often overrides everything else.

Quote from: iKate on May 11, 2015, 03:59:06 PM
I'm surprised no one said voice.

Voice is the most important thing to me as I love to talk (especially in front of people), I'm very sociable and transition has made me even more outgoing. Not to mention that the voice often overrides everything else.

My voice was pretty high on my list about six months ago but my inability to find a speech therapist/vocal coach in my area willing to work with me has kind of stopped that one.  I'm just doing the best I can with what I have right now and (I think) I'm getting better, just from responses I get in public.

I had an appointment with a place here in Indy last fall, the therapist there wouldn't agree to see me until I had vocal surgery (at the same place) and the method they use is one I've heard mixed reviews on so I'm hesitant to move forward with them.

With "GRS" or "penectomy and castration" you could always offer to show them if they questioned you.

I don't have any use or desire for that thing.

FFS. 

The title versus the phrasing in the OP is interesting.  FFS is a feminizing surgery by definition. And I would look to the feminizing effect.  It never occurred to me to think much of "looking feminine" per se.  In other words, I am seeking an effect that well let me blend in, not one that will make me better looking.

I've done a fair amount of reading on voice surgeries and have heard samples of before and after speech and wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.  There is one surgery that has some promise, but it involves (among other things) relocating the larynx back and up. While the results can be good, it introduces the possibility of losing your voice completely and permanently.  I haven't been at all impressed with what I have heard from the various vocal cord shortening techniques, plus they don't always last.

Rhinoplasty and SRS. I hate my nose. I could use some forehead work as well but nose is my priority. Then SRS.  I hate my ew ugh yuck.

Quote from: mmmmm on May 11, 2015, 03:49:55 PM
You would be amazed how many transitioners come to a conclusion that transition isn't the right thing for them, after a year or two or four living "full-time" and being on hormones. What seems like an overwhelming change and each small step brings a new excitement, often turns into reality, which is living a life as an unpassable trans woman. This isn't a situation for everybody. And not everybody has a chance to afford a full-FFS, which could cost from $20-30,000 with reputable surgeon... and even that alone might not be enough. Too many realize a few years later that they need to be really passable, not just somewhat passable, in order to find a decent job, and to be able to find a life partner, and to be able to be happy. And because hormones and attitude can only do so much, and they don't have a money for expensive surgeries, many realize how much easier it was before. Waiting with SRS until you lived at least for few years (not just one for old wpath' sake) "full-time" is a smart thing. Better be late than sorry.

I think the one year is good enough.. seriously.. by then you know.  I have been full time 5 months.. and admit being a woman is a pain.  But love it.. I did have FFS after 12 months of HRt.. not sure that was smart.. I can put my hair up in a hat, not wear makeup and still not pass as a guy.. so I am screwed if I change my mind.  I think FFS if one can afford should not be done before 12 months of therapy..  I am having GRS after one year full time and can't wait.. its what I wanted all my life.. but I know its not right for everyone.. transition is hard.. so damn hard.

I might change later, but right now I don't care about passing. Its all about being comfortable in my own skin. I'm almost there, but SRS is the only way to truly fix that for me. I do have to say I LOVE estrogen. Its done more for me than I ever imagined.

Well for me its just going in order of what bothers me the most... While not "surgery", facial hair removal just seems logical to get started on before anything else including even HRT...

I did VFS first because I found that no matter how good I looked or felt if I couldn't talk like a woman whats the point if my voice constantly gets me read as "male" ??? My voice WAS very deep ;)

3 months later I did full FFS to correct masculine bone features that will never change without surgery no matter how long on HRT and adding in some rejuvenation at the same time was my obvious next step to relieve GD... While it was very expensive its done a lot to make my life easier and and more fulfilling, no regrets there  ;D

Next will be SRS even though Im sure hair restoration and body contouring would probably do a lot for my GD as well...

It just makes more sense to give the HRT (13 months now) more time to hopefully work on giving me the curves I want before body work... Same for breast augmentation, that will be last if at all necessary and Im thinking it might not be...

I agree with the thought that SRS is probably better to wait for if you have other issues that can be surgically fixed keeping you from really "passing" or assimilating into life as a woman for real... But I also respect anyones choice to do whatever the hell they want to with their body and I do get the $$$ issue.... In my mind though Id want to do everything I could to give myself a chance at an easier life as a woman before SRS and possibly living to regret it only because the rest of the world didn't see me as a woman....

Quote from: Dodie on May 11, 2015, 04:34:23 PM
I think FFS if one can afford should not be done before 12 months of therapy.. 

You are right on this... There were not so few cases of FFS regret, where people had too much money available, and went to have FFS, before even thinking through everything. But a FFS regret isn't such a bad thing, as SRS regret would potentially be.

Short term, I really just want my forehead botoxed.

Longer term, sure, I could probably use a few goes with the chisel.

Quote from: Eva on May 11, 2015, 05:12:30 PM...In my mind though Id want to do everything I could to give myself a chance at an easier life as a woman before SRS and possibly living to regret it only because the rest of the world didn't see me as a woman....

I am sure if one stood naked in front of them (world) post-op they would see a woman.  Lots of different looking women out there.  I need work but can hold my own among homely cis-woman.

What has stood out most from a young age is the optional equipment installed in error on my body. As unpleasant as it sounds we are identified male/female at birth by what's between our legs and in some cases under the same criteria when we die.  I was born wrong sure don't want to die that way.

Yes passing is important but does that mean those who can't pass give up on SRS or just live as male?  Even not so attractive females can find love and or engage in the exchange of pleasures.

Being a woman to me means 'be a woman' last time I checked that did not include having a penis.
Harsh but that's what my 'Real Life Experience/Test' has taught me.

SRS first everything else can wait!

Since you said first I'm assuming its basically what you can afford before moving on to another procedure some time down the road after you saved up for whatever the next thing is and that there is no limit on the number of procedures. 

I said "other" only because you have several procedures broken out into separate categories that are often done together (forehead contouring/brow lift and hairline advance) for virtually the same price as they all require the same cut at the same location doing them separately would require would be fine is you were only doing one or two of the procedures but if your planning on doing them all then they should be done together.

if I was only able to get one procedure (knowing no others were to follow) it would be SRS and if it were two procedures I would add VFS as well and everything after that is icing on the cake to me.

 I don't see the sequencing of surgeries as the same as their ultimate importance.  In any event, it's unfortunate that only genital surgery is termed as gender confirming or sex reassignment.  The truth is that FFS can be every bit as gender confirming as SRS.  Insinuations that people who value FFS are somehow less authentic or are being superficial is unnecessary and unkind. Looking to motivation is a better way to approach it. 

Women may not have penises, but neither do they have a man's skeletal structure. Whether, and how much of a confirmation issue that is for any given individual is up to them. 

All that said, I wonder why anyone who thinks they are transsexual would not want SRS.  AND FFS.

Quote from: LeaP on May 11, 2015, 06:39:23 PM
...All that said, I wonder why anyone who thinks they are transsexual would not want SRS.  AND FFS.

OK, sign me up for that too but this transition thing is getting really expensive!

I leave my age and gender confirmation to Microsoft.  Using only a head shot (picture) they determined I look female...enough.  Wow!, no expensive FFS needed.  Anyone else ever try their How-Old website?  Every picture I have tested after starting my transition pegs me as female.  Photos taken prior show as male  :-\

Quote from: LeaP on May 11, 2015, 06:39:23 PM
All that said, I wonder why anyone who thinks they are transsexual would not want SRS.  AND FFS.

Apparently there are some transgender people who decide to have SRS... And there are transsexual people who do not have much genital dysphoria, or at all, and would never have genital surgery. Despite me having extreme no-touch level of genital dysphoria, I understand how some other transsexual woman might feel differently towards their genital parts, not being really bothered by it. It's harder for me to understand how some transsexual women are not bothered by having prominent brow bossing, masculine orbital rims and consequently masculine facial expression... or really masculine nose, or any other facial gender markers, which literally effects everyday life and interactions with other people. Where as SRS don't. Other than couple doctors noone ever saw my genitals, and noone ever will until after I have them rearranged.

No rush for SRS here.

That's partly because I identify as transsexual, more than I do as female. My identity has continued to evolve during transition.

Accepting myself as transsexual - no more and no less - has worked for me. I no longer have the stress of trying to be 100% female.

I have found myself feeling comfortable at last - being publicly and for all purposes, transsexual. The GD seems to be in total remission.
---

So, I don't think the aspiration to be 100% a preferred gender, is crucial to identifying as transsexual.

When I am asked, I simply define transsexualism as one taking real steps to bring what they are, more into line with who they are. It is all done to improve one's quality of life.

---
I am unsure if SRS will add that much more to my quality of life, than transitioning has already.

So, until how I feel about it changes, SRS is on hold.

Quote from: OOAnne on May 11, 2015, 05:59:44 PM
I am sure if one stood naked in front of them (world) post-op they would see a woman.  Lots of different looking women out there.  I need work but can hold my own among homely cis-woman.

What has stood out most from a young age is the optional equipment installed in error on my body. As unpleasant as it sounds we are identified male/female at birth by what's between our legs and in some cases under the same criteria when we die.  I was born wrong sure don't want to die that way.

Yes passing is important but does that mean those who can't pass give up on SRS or just live as male?  Even not so attractive females can find love and or engage in the exchange of pleasures.

Being a woman to me means 'be a woman' last time I checked that did not include having a penis.
Harsh but that's what my 'Real Life Experience/Test' has taught me.

SRS first everything else can wait!

Oh believe me I agree with you, I guess I should have clarified a few things... First of all I had VFS and FFS at 7 and 10 months into HRT and about a year and a half into RLE "officially"... Since Im fortunate to have the $$$ and I couldn't meet the requirements of the SOC for SRS anyway It made sense to do things the way I have ;)

BUT even if I could have done SRS first I doubt I would have changed much, I just didn't feel ready yet... I do now ;)

Quote from: SarahBoo on May 11, 2015, 08:11:01 PM
No rush for SRS here.

That's partly because I identify as transsexual, more than I do as female. My identity has continued to evolve during transition.

Accepting myself as transsexual - no more and no less - has worked for me. I no longer have the stress of trying to be 100% female.

I have found myself feeling comfortable at last - being publicly and for all purposes, transsexual. The GD seems to be in total remission.
---

So, I don't think the aspiration to be 100% a preferred gender, is crucial to identifying as transsexual.

When I am asked, I simply define transsexualism as one taking real steps to bring what they are, more into line with who they are. It is all done to improve one's quality of life.

---
I am unsure if SRS will add that much more to my quality of life, than transitioning has already.

So, until how I feel about it changes, SRS is on hold.

wow SarahBoo..we do think alike :) Although I am just beginning my transition, I have no inclination towards SRS. But I do appreciate those who and those who do not. I selected Rhino, just because it IS my next step..got an appointment next week to talk to the doc. Mine though is a medical surgery, so will have to ask if some aesthetic work can be done as well. If I can vote twice I will go back and select electrolysis since that on my list in this time before I start HRT.

Quote from: Marly on May 11, 2015, 08:26:55 PM
wow SarahBoo..we do think alike :) Although I am just beginning my transition, I have no inclination towards SRS. But I do appreciate those who and those who do not. ...

I just think we should be kind to ourselves, above all else. And no less, patient and forgiving toward others.

If one can be relaxed about transition, that is a great position to enjoy every day of the ride, every little thing about it :~)

Quote from: LeaP on May 11, 2015, 06:39:23 PM

All that said, I wonder why anyone who thinks they are transsexual would not want SRS.  AND FFS.

It's because genitals do not determine gender. Isn't that the whole argument we go telling the world why we are who we are?

Also, you're not going to strip down naked in front of the world. They're going to see your face, your figure, your breasts (covered by your clothing) and hear your voice. This is why genital surgery isn't so important for a lot of people. Then there is maintenance, pain and fear of complications. Cis women do not have to dilate. That is one of the things that really scares me that I'll have to dilate every day for life just in case I can't find a partner who will naturally dilate me.

As for FFS, hormones can do so much that many people don't need FFS to pass. I don't plan on FFS unless I have real problems passing (and I don't.) it's also risky and painful.

Quote from: SarahBoo on May 11, 2015, 05:42:27 PM
Short term, I really just want my forehead botoxed.

Longer term, sure, I could probably use a few goes with the chisel.

How well do you think botox would work for that? From what I ever see in the mirror, the muscles in the forehead, especially around the brows, really give a lot away, expressions, grinning in anger, surprise, it reveals a lot... from my understanding botox basically relaxes the muscles... might that be true and effect that?

Quote from: Blush on May 11, 2015, 09:49:30 PM
How well do you think botox would work for that? From what I ever see in the mirror, the muscles in the forehead, especially around the brows, really give a lot away, expressions, grinning in anger, surprise, it reveals a lot... from my understanding botox basically relaxes the muscles... might that be true and effect that?

Wrinkles, in my case. If I get that sorted out it will draw attention away from the area in general. I'm not hoping for it to make changes to the actual shape of my head.

dunno why per say, but the first one on my list is Breast implants. the size I want and the surgeon I want to have mine done by, it cost more than the GRS. I don't want full dept GRS, I plan on having it 'clear cut' down there, and have abit of 'cosmetic' rearranging.

I wish I could afford laser hair removal, and even better FFS

Quote from: iKate on May 11, 2015, 08:51:44 PM
It's because genitals do not determine gender. Isn't that the whole argument we go telling the world why we are who we are?

I never said they did.  In fact, I rarely talk about gender per se.  Gender truly may be viewed as a spectrum (alternatively a matrix, or even a mess ...). 

By contrast, being cross-sex identified (or transsexual) reduces to a binary concept and solution.  It isn't purely so from a biological standpoint, but it manifests in binary identification and a drive to binary living.  One may be cross-sexed, have gender issues, both, or neither.  As my self-understanding clarified, I found myself strongly cross-sex identified and what I thought were gender issues just dissipated.  The pathological en-femme presentation drive that was masking my real issue melted away under the influence of hormones, despite a heightened need to resolve my physical conflict.  A common occurrence, as you likely know.  I rarely dress anymore, and when I do, I don't really think much of it one way or another.  No girly needs, no undue concerns about attractiveness, etc.  At this point, the physical changes are just work to do and then it's get on with life.  The identity issue is over already.  Social transition will add nothing more in that regard (only - trust me, I'm not minimizing its importance in other ways).  I don't particularly care about gender any longer except as an interesting socio-political concept.

If you accept, as I do, that the essence of transsexuality is conflict between body and mind, then forgoing available corrections to fix that problem - by choice - seems to point at either other motivations for transition, or perhaps other factors overriding intensity.  Mind you, I'm not judging anyone's motives for transition in a qualitative sense.  It is also true that many cannot pursue surgeries for any number of reasons.  Different issue entirely.  My comment was focused on those who claim a mind/body issue - to be cross-sex identified, but then find that social transition (and perhaps hormones) resolve that issue.  I'm happy for anyone who can resolve their gender problem in the least invasive way, of course, but it's a a non-sequitur as it relates to the core issue underlying transsexuality.  A gender problem is eminently resolvable by transition alone.  Cross-SEX identification is not.

My statement on SRS AND FFS was somewhat exaggerated for effect, of course.  It presumes a conflict over one's facial structure, for example, and not everyone has either the conflict or even a facial structure issue, neutrally considered.  There are plenty of men with facial structure and features that are feminine or neotenic, which is perceived as much the same.  The ones I find curious are those with decidedly masculine facial hard tissue structures that (again) choose not to do anything about it, i.e., would not do anything even if the means were at hand, nothing preventing it medically, etc.  It flies in the face (!) of the nominal conflict. 

I should also say that I agree with the comment about hormones taking care of certain issues, at least for some.  I've been told I don't need FFS by several people I trust.  I pretty much pass when dressed despite the rarity of being gendered female when not.  I don't believe them, of course, but that's on me.  I do see the changes that hormones have wrought on my face.

Lets please keep this topic civil and back on the topic at hand. The reasons why others need to follow through with gender confirming surgery or other feminization surgeries, transsexualism are discussions that belong in other topics. Thanks
Mariah

Quote from: Dodie on May 11, 2015, 04:34:23 PM
I think the one year is good enough.. seriously.. by then you know.  I have been full time 5 months.. and admit being a woman is a pain.  But love it.. I did have FFS after 12 months of HRt.. not sure that was smart.. I can put my hair up in a hat, not wear makeup and still not pass as a guy.. so I am screwed if I change my mind.  I think FFS if one can afford should not be done before 12 months of therapy..  I am having GRS after one year full time and can't wait.. its what I wanted all my life.. but I know its not right for everyone.. transition is hard.. so damn hard.

Well when I'll get my FFS I'll have been around 9 months on HRT, but after 2 years on AA the body is not too masculine. If you think FFS at 12 month on HRT, that makes me even less smart that you.

Maybe some will say it's too early, as many on the forum are opposed to FFS, but I absolutely want to be perceived as a woman, not as somebody who pretends to be a woman, and that people may laugh at or physically attack. It's not just who I know I am, but also who they see I am.

Maybe some other girls here, with thicker skin or better genetics, can transition then have FFS. I do admire and respect that, but I just can't envision transitioning looking the way I look. Some things are physically possible to those girls gifted with a sweet looking face, some are not to the likes of me, even if we try to be as pretty as possible.

That's because there are BIG BONES inside our SKULL. We can't wish them away with makeup!

You say I'm screwed if I change my mind? My mind won't change. It's my body that's screwed and needs to change to match me.

Quote from: mmmmm on May 11, 2015, 05:31:58 PM
You are right on this... There were not so few cases of FFS regret, where people had too much money available, and went to have FFS, before even thinking through everything. But a FFS regret isn't such a bad thing, as SRS regret would potentially be.

FFS regret, you mean they didn't chose the right surgeon and the result was not female enough?

I just can't imagine anything else. I mean, finally being yourself, not just for yourself but for everyone to see. Are there messages about that on the board? I could't imagine that being less than 1%, as for the transition regrets

Assuming that HRT is a free card I chose electrolysis, which is what I chose the first time around.  HRT stopped my mind from feeling like it was being murdered, started my breasts budding and made me impotent (Yay!) so that got me to a place where I could start to feel at peace with myself.  After that getting rid of the black sticks that wanted to sprout out of my face was the priority.  To my mind nothing says 'bloke' so much as facial hair so that had to be gone and going through six months worth of pain as well as having a face full of raw weeping holes in my skin after every session was well worth it.

For a second choice if I could afford it, or if a kind someone gave me the money insisting I had to use it for surgery, I would go for GRS.  I have an orchi now and would love to have a penectomy, but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.  If GRS was a viable option I'd take it though even though I have no interest in sexual intimacy because I think it would be easier to get the gatekeepers to approve it over a penectomy.

Quote from: LeaP on May 11, 2015, 06:39:23 PM
All that said, I wonder why anyone who thinks they are transsexual would not want SRS.  AND FFS.

Pretty simple answer there... because not every transsexual person has genital dysphoria in the first place, and many more don't want to go through SRS due to fears of complications or feeling like the surgery isn't advanced enough yet, and don't want to dilate forever or become infertile in order to do it. And in regards to FFS, a lot of trans people like their faces and don't feel the need to change them.

In regards to the opening post, I'm going to join the small crowd that says that voice feminization surgery is probably the biggest deal in regards to being accepted by other people... (if one is physically feminine enough that they look at least moderately passable. And most trans people can reach that point.) One of the biggest things that gives trans women away is still having a male-sounding voice. I've had a friend who had VFS tell me that people she met told her "we were wondering if you might be trans or not when we met you, but we decided probably not, because of your voice." I've also heard the statement "I pass just fine, until I open my mouth" tossed around a lot. I've met many androgynous-looking women who I could only tell were women because of their voices. And over on the FtM side, I've seen a lot of frustration with pre-testosterone guys being called "he" at first glance but then facing constant "sorry, I meant she"s once they have to speak to someone.

Basically, if you look androgynous, voice is the deal-breaker IMO.

The thing is, though, there is no magic-bullet answer to which procedure will help any individual trans person pass the most. And I think that is where a lot of people get disappointed, is that they're expecting one thing to be the deal-breaker which finally lets them live completely without worry. And, well, if you can only afford one thing, you need to be realistic. Each procedure feminizes only ONE thing. After FFS, if you had a deep voice, you're still going to have a deep voice. So unless you're almost perfectly cis-normative in appearance, you're probably still going to trigger people's suspicions. Likewise, if you have a very masculine face, feminizing your voice will only help so much, people will still be curious as to why you look a bit guyish.

Going into the procedure expecting that it will fix one thing and one thing only, and not be a magic-bullet nuclear-option that will cure all of your passability problems once and for all, is key to happiness with all of these things. People getting SRS first are often bummed because they still look trans. People getting FFS first are often bummed because it didn't fix their body frame or voice and they're still getting read as trans. It happens.

The way I see it, do some self-analysis. Just live your life, and pay attention when dysphoria and fears arise. What exactly was it that triggered that dysphoria? Keep a running tab of which body features triggered your dysphoria the most consistently. Fix that thing first. Tackle whatever it is that is having the biggest negative impact on your own life. And again, just accept that it's an imperfect process, that you can only do so much, and focus on tackling the biggest issues. What this biggest issue is will be different for each person.

And again, don't expect a single magic-bullet answer of "after this procedure all of my problems will be over." You're setting yourself up for disappointment if you do that. Just focus on the big ones, tackle what you can tackle, and try not to worry so much about what you can't change. It's all about being happy with yourself, and doing the things that YOU want done.

Ooo interesting thread. If it was possible, I would have loved to have my shoulder width reduced by a lot. Having broad shoulders suck :( But aside from the shoulders, I would have to say SRS all the way :D

I must comment that FFS is something that I've never considered.  My paternal grandmother had a jaw like the bow of a coal barge which unfortunately got passed onto me and my siblings, but all the same my face is my face and I wouldn't want to change it for any reason.

Quote from: LeaP on May 11, 2015, 06:39:23 PM
All that said, I wonder why anyone who thinks they are transsexual would not want SRS.  AND FFS.

Well I do think I'm transsexual and I don't want FFS. It's an assault on a body that I've already assaulted too much and that I'd like to nurse me through another few good years. I support those who do choose FFS, but I feel I owe it to my body not to put it through more than I have to.

Do you still wonder why or have I satisfied your curiosity.

I'd probably feminise my jaw.  I can live with my eyebrow ridge and it's easier to mask.

  I chose laser/electrolysis because it was the first thing I absolutely needed to feel comfortable presenting part-time.  In terms of actual surgery though it is FFS for me, which, by the way, I'm scheduled for tomorrow!!! ;D :o :'(

Quote from: charlotte15 on May 12, 2015, 01:03:05 AM
FFS regret, you mean they didn't chose the right surgeon and the result was not female enough?

I just can't imagine anything else. I mean, finally being yourself, not just for yourself but for everyone to see. Are there messages about that on the board? I could't imagine that being less than 1%, as for the transition regrets

No, I meant some people who went and had a FFS before apparently being really committed to transitioning, and after having FFS they realized that they are not really transsexual (or enough?), and wanted their old face back. While this is not a such problem in a case of FFS (looking younger and more pretty despite not transitioning), it is a big problem with SRS, because many trans people realize after a couple years on HRT and living full-time, that they are not actually more happy than they were before, and decide to de-transition and live as men again. Its far more common than it is written about on a websites like this. Most cases are trans women who are read and seen as trans, and consequences in everyday life become more and more unbearable because of that. You won't hear often about young perfectly passable transwomen de-transitioning.




Violet Bloom... Good luck with your surgery! :)

Quote from: Lady Smith on May 12, 2015, 02:34:27 AM
I must comment that FFS is something that I've never considered.  My paternal grandmother had a jaw like the bow of a coal barge which unfortunately got passed onto me ...

Interestingly, you look a bit like one of my aunts.

Quote from: suzifrommd on May 12, 2015, 05:38:09 AM
Do you still wonder why or have I satisfied your curiosity.

Please don't mistake rhetorical statements, in this case my challenge, or Socratic question, for a judgement.  As Mariah said, no-one's personal motivations are being questioned.  I don't sit in judgement of any individual, despite the question.  It's neither my right nor my inclination. 

The topic raises the question of priorities (among other things).  There are many things that drive priorities.  My question delves into the boundaries between conditions, why they exist, how they may be differentiated, and how they are best treated. 

Quote from: Carrie Liz on May 12, 2015, 02:18:53 AM
Pretty simple answer there... because not every transsexual person has genital dysphoria in the first place, and many more don't want to go through SRS due to fears of complications or feeling like the surgery isn't advanced enough yet, and don't want to dilate forever or become infertile in order to do it. And in regards to FFS, a lot of trans people like their faces and don't feel the need to change them.

..
And again, don't expect a single magic-bullet answer of "after this procedure all of my problems will be over." You're setting yourself up for disappointment if you do that. Just focus on the big ones, tackle what you can tackle, and try not to worry so much about what you can't change. It's all about being happy with yourself, and doing the things that YOU want done.

Per the rationale for my contributions to this thread, I've focused more on FFS than genital surgeries because it highlights the boundary point so much more clearly (in its ambiguity, no less). 

I will only comment here on the first paragraph cited, as it relates to MtFs, along the lines of my "by choice," or congruence desire point. Which is that none of the reasons cited, such as fear, go to that point.  They are other types of considerations and they are, of course, the right of every individual to weigh for themselves. 

As it relates to FtMs, I wouldn't question the point of the state of the surgeries' art.  FtMs have a very different set of considerations to weigh with surgeries and I leave that topic to them.

I'm not sure who you were addressing your last paragraph to.  I agree, but would extend the logic in the opposite direction, too ... pre-transition.  Strictly and narrowly speaking, transition doesn't create identity.  It actualizes it, of course, but it does not make a woman out of a man.  THAT question (if there even was one) should be firmly, finally, and completely resolved before transition!  As such, once someone has that degree of certainty, there is nothing to prevent them working on any gender-related or gender-created issues NOW. 

1. VFS
2. Full FFS
3. Maybe GRS but idk yet.

I would likely get breast augmentation because of looks. But ffs is also high on the list.

  If it helps the discussion at all, my FFS comes three years into my transition.  I am quite committed to doing this now, but it also involves self-image issues that have dogged me my whole life.  Whatever I come out looking like, I know I'll be happier no matter how my identity might shift.

Very interesting discussion! As I was reading all your responses, I was wondering, given my age, what I would want to do first. I have already started electrolysis, 5 sessions in and a long way to go,  but then what would give me the greatest benefit. I have MPB, small lips, and a fairly high forehead. If I was in a position to choose now what to do, only on HRT for just over 3 months, I would go for SRS. I see woman in all shapes and sizes, all with different features and many wanting to change something about there appearance. At least with SRS I would have a base to go forward. Who knows where I will end up on the process. I am just so happy to be on the path.

I suppose it would depend on what I wanted to accomplish, for personal satisfaction, I'd go with SRS. I could live without the rest, however, in terms of bang for you buck, I'd think BA is a far more reasonable price and recovery time and will overall do more to help help me pass. So you, if it wasn't paid for by me, SRS. But my first major surgery will be a BA most likely.

Quote from: islandgirl on May 12, 2015, 10:32:16 AM
...I see woman in all shapes and sizes, all with different features and many wanting to change something about there appearance. At least with SRS I would have a base to go forward. Who knows where I will end up on the process. I am just so happy to be on the path.

Amen!
Even the first notable transition (Christine Jorgensen) back in the 1950's started with SRS, HRT followed.  Starting with a good foundation is always best to build upon, correct?

Perhaps it would be best if we avoid getting too hung up on looks and instead concentrate on just being women!  Skinny, tall, fat, pretty or ugly, we come in many flavors and styles.  FFS is great but does that make a woman?

Why SRS first?  How about we listen to those who have walked the walk.
Quote from our elder, Lynn Conway.  She underwent SRS in 1968...The year I was born!

It's so hard to explain all this to those who haven't experienced physical mis-gendering. Without reassignment, such a person isn't able to experience their full humanity, including their sexuality. It just doesn't work. Sex reassignment is NOT A CHOICE for such people. It is a life-enabling transformation that makes their physical sex consistent with their innate gender feelings. Without a consistent gender, one really doesn't have a life, much less liberty and a chance to pursue happiness. -Lynn Conway.

I want to be happy!

While I agree with Lynn, recognize that the gatekeeping of the time enforced a sequence of events.

Both SRS and FFS are gender confirming surgeries. That is, true FFS - cosmetic procedures performed in conjunction with FFS (which is largely structural and not soft tissue, though this isn't exact) aren't feminization, however desirable they might be.

No surgery makes one into a woman.  As for what FFS accomplishes - ask Lynn ... Ousterhaut did hers. 

Short of a full ffs, a forehead recountering, second nose or eye orbitals, followed by ears and hairline.

If possible I would pursue full FFS but money is always an issue... but if I had to choose, I would get my chin worked on first followed by brow ridge feminization and last my nose but my nose isn't too much of a concern for me. Maybe SRS will be first on my list, one day, depending on where life takes me. Although I hate my downstairs area, there's more pain in seeing the wrong face in the mirror.

Quote from: OOAnne on May 12, 2015, 11:49:19 AM
FFS is great but does that make a woman?

If the tree falls in a forest where there is no one to hear it, does it makes a sound?

Just having SRS (say not even laser or electrolysis) won't make someone a woman. She'll still get sired all the time, and none would be the wiser of what's in her panties if the doesn't wear dresses or makeup.

For me, being a woman means not being able to be confused with a man, or pass as a man - a permanent male fail if you want. It means being unable to claim male privilege ever again. Maybe this is a feminist view of what a woman is, but that's my view.

About SRS, I'm not sure. I don't really hate these parts to the point of throwing up. I'm indifferent. I'm considering an orchy as it would be less expansive, but if SRS was paid for and gave a good functional results, I could wear bathsuits and bikinis - so why not?

I mean, I don't discard the possibility. But it's like far far far away on my list of priority. I mean, when I'll have more money, I'll first make sure my face is as feminine as possible, with a 2nd round of FFS if needed, then see how VFS have progressed - if there are new techniques better than Wendler glottoplasty, as the videos on youtube are at best unconvincing. You've got to have a great voice to begin with.

Once again, maybe some people have more luck than me. Whatever.

Quote from: OOAnne on May 12, 2015, 11:49:19 AM
Why SRS first?  How about we listen to those who have walked the walk.

I have no respect for traditions, authority and the likes. I'll forge my own path.

I just spun off a thread on FFS, so don't want to expand on that any further. 

The side topic of womanhood misses the point. Which is, feminization procedures of all types aren't intended to create something that doesn't exist, but to finish something that  is incomplete. 

Quote from: LeaP on May 12, 2015, 07:29:57 AM
I'm not sure who you were addressing your last paragraph to.  I agree, but would extend the logic in the opposite direction, too ... pre-transition.  Strictly and narrowly speaking, transition doesn't create identity.  It actualizes it, of course, but it does not make a woman out of a man.  THAT question (if there even was one) should be firmly, finally, and completely resolved before transition!  As such, once someone has that degree of certainty, there is nothing to prevent them working on any gender-related or gender-created issues NOW.

It's addressed to everyone, because the entire topic at hand was basically asking "there has been a time or two where my being female hasn't really sat in with some folks, and I've wished I could wear a sign that says, "I have a vagina!"... It's made me wonder, is there one surgery in particular that really thrusts you into femininity and yells that you are female moreso than others?"

Basically, that means that the OP was looking for advice on which procedure leads to the greatest social acceptance of a trans person, and which one will help that femininity become solidified and unquestionable.

Lots of trans people expect that there will be a magic-bullet answer, one procedure that after which they'll never have to worry about being stigmatized as trans again, they'll be perfectly "passable" and socially-acceptable to cis people and completely normative, and I was just warning everyone that such a mindset is asking for disappointment, that the greatest path to happiness is just correcting whatever it is that you personally are the most uncomfortable with, the thing that makes you the most personally dysphoric, and expecting that such surgery will improve that one area and that one area only, while having the self-acceptance to be okay with the parts of you that you can't change, and the views of narrow-minded un-accepting people which you can't ever completely eliminate, you can only improve in gradual steps.

I've seen several trans women (not the majority, mind you, just some,) have one procedure done only to either be dissatisfied because it wasn't enough, or shift their dysphoric thoughts onto another procedure almost immediately afterward, always looking for that perfection.

I think the problem with expectations from surgery lie with the fact that removing dysphoria and being able to 'pass' are not necessarily the same thing.  Looking back on my transition my motivation was that I wanted to be properly myself and anything that could be done within reason to remove or reduce the unease I had over certain parts of my body or body processes was my aim.  To be honest I never did any of it, HRT, electrolysis, orchidectomy, to 'pass', I did it in order to make living in my own body bearable.  I've never given a fig about 'passing' because my aim was always to be myself first of all.

Carrie, I have seen that happen as well and a friend and I have been actively talking about the problem. Her observation is that many hit the wall right after transition (suicides spike at this point also) - when it comes home that life has been 100% trans this and trans that.

For these, this is the line that divides the quest for identity from living, from being trans from being a woman. If you don't know what you are, you have no business transitioning.  This is what led to my comment about moving forward with life immediately on sorting out what you are and where you are headed.

Two things make people uncomfortable when it comes to the arguments of medical necessity, whether considered for SRS or FFS.  The first are the philosophical arguments (which are rooted in puritanical and religious-based cultural bias, frankly). This is where arguments like "other people live with things like this, why can't the trans person" come from.  There are also arguments of fairness, social utility, relative benefit, and more.  It's a morass.  The second is cost, coupled with the deep suspicion that someone is trying to pull something.

I'm not concerned with either one when it comes to FFS any more than I am with SRS.  Both are incredibly invasive and extreme from a number of perspectives.  Many start down the path, but few indeed complete it. Too many things conspire to disincent and stop those who don't really need them.

There may be some cause to be concerned for costs when it comes to facial surgery, but I think that could be resolved by appropriately limiting the procedures that fall into that category and assigning the costs of cosmetic procedures outside of that back to the patient, along with a pro rata portion of general surgery costs such as the hospital stay, mess, anesthesia, etc. That would eliminate those scamming their way under the flag of medical necessity to get something like a lip lift.  Not too many people are going to undergo having, say, their forehead dissected and put back together just to cover a portion of the costs for the cosmetic plastics they are having done at the same time. 

I just realized something, Lea, which I'm kind of embarrassed to realize that I didn't notice at first because I wasn't paying attention to your response, I was just getting defensive...

In my original post, only the opening paragraph was a response to you directly. I was responding to "I don't see why any trans woman wouldn't want both SRS AND FFS" with the simple answer "not all trans women want it."

The entire rest of the post was a response to the OP. I wasn't like trying to get into some big argument with you personally about whether FFS is worth it or what makes someone trans or not, or anything like that, again, that was all just directed at the OP as a response to "is there a procedure that yells you are female more than others?"

Sorry, didn't mean to engage a whole debate there. I wasn't sure where the heck you were getting the engagement about the validity of people's identity thing from my last paragraph... because that paragraph wasn't in any way meant to be related to people's identities being valid or not, or having anything to do with why a trans person would or wouldn't want surgery in the first place. It was just a response to the OP, and I was basically saying "no single surgery will remove your concerns on its own, it's best to not expect miracles and be realistic about what each thing will change."

Sorry if there was confusion there... again, I was addressing two different questions in my original reply.

Hello everyone, OCAnne here...again.

I have been in the woodwork a couple years.  Read a lot of post on this site and at times felt I could offer input.  Well here I am offering input.  The title of this topic is 'Which corrective feminizing surgery would you go for first?'  It's 'first' not last.  We all have to start somewhere and nothing screams female more to me than vagina.

My gender dysphoria has always been centered around my crotch.  Looks and feels wrong and I can't engage in vaginal intercourse. A straight man wants somewhere to put it.  Men expect to find a vagina on a woman.  Gets very awkward I am sure when they find a penis instead.

  I can accept being ugly but not having a vagina breaks me.  Thankfully it can be corrected and it tops my list.  I have asked surgeons, therapist, friends and haters whether I could use FFS.  All said no.  Can I use work, absolutely yes.  Most cis-women can also find issues that require correction.  Pretty sure not having a vagina is ever one of them.  That's reserved for us pre-op transsexual women.

Call it what it is 'intensely transsexual' but what's the point passing when you can't pass as born, naked!  Sure not everyone is going to see it but you and maybe your lovers know it's there.  I frequently feel like a phony female because I have a penis instead.

Makes me wonder when some trans. women claim they despise their wrong genitals but choose to keep them.

Some of us were born ready to undergo SRS other may with time decide its time.

  In less than 10 days the penis comes off (the outside) and becomes my vagina.  Don't care if I am numb as long as it's gone.  Corrective Feminizing Surgery complete!  Ugh, well, mmm, maybe not.

Quote from: OOAnne on May 12, 2015, 05:50:50 PM

Call it what it is 'intensely transsexual' but what's the point passing when you can't pass as born, naked!  Sure not everyone is going to see it but you and maybe your lovers know it's there. 

... but what's the point of passing when you can't pass without the make-up, with messed-up hair or without a wig... that's basically every morning, shure not everyone is going to see you, but you will, mirror will be there on the wall. And maybe your lovers will see you too.
(This is meant hypothetically, and not by any means to offend anybody).

No worries, Carrie.  Forum dynamics get confusing, with people responding to bits and pieces all over the place.  I probably wasn't clear on who I was responding to anyway. 

As for the defensiveness, forget it.  I tend to revert to a dry, analytical, and logical writing style unless I'm literally putting effort in to lighten up.  I've never been quite sure why, but it gets that reaction at times.  Truthfully, I'm focused on the discussion points and the flow back and forth.  None of us exactly enjoy being countered with a strongly argued position anyway.  I do like being surprised with a point of view I've never considered, but I can get defensive if something to which I'm attached goes under the microscope, too.  There are many reasons for this, I suppose, including social embarrassment.  It's just human nature.  It takes a lot to admit you weren't paying sufficient attention, and I very much appreciate your saying that.  It also encourages others (including me) to do likewise. 

Finally, without going back and deconstructing the post you cited, let me just say that I like to occasionally riff someone's remarks off into new directions.  I'm usually careful to avoid suggesting that I'm reading things into their comments.  If the new sub-topic helps the OP topic, fine, else I'll spin it off when appropriate, as I did with the FFS/Gender Confirmation topic.

But please do debate!  (positive sense)   Rigor is good!  Challenge is good! 

Personally, the only surgery I wanted was GRS, and not because I feel it made me "more feminine" but because I needed my body to be the right shape. (That said, I do occasionally - such as in public bathrooms or locker rooms - find it reassuring to know that anyone who threw open the door now would not recoil in shock. [This actually happened to my wife, where some kid flung open the changing room curtain and the whole room saw her naked, so I was SO paranoid about that!]) I don't want FFS for the simple reason that I can go out in jeans and a T-shirt with messy hair and no makeup and be taken for an average middle-aged woman, which is all I ever wanted. In fact, I just spent this past week biking around DC in men's shorts and a baseball cap and had no problems, and that's always been my goal - to be able to live comfortably as a low-maintenance sort of woman, but most importantly, to get on with having my *life* instead of worrying about being trans.

Anyway, that's why I'd choose only the one surgery I did. Not everyone has the same needs, and I'll be first in line to say that a woman with different needs from mine deserves to fulfill her dreams every bit as much. I don't think I can say which is the most feminizing surgery for Jane Doe because it's all so individual.

I don't have a simple answer to this one. It depends.

Currently I'm presenting male and will continue to do so for at least a while, so it would be SRS first and only (while still presenting male). It would at least make me happy.

If I were to present female I'd defiantly be looking at electrolysis/FFS first - I've tried it and I'm very uncomfortable the way I present as female. Perhaps part of its its simply lack of practice, but still. SRS and BA would follow pretty shortly after though.

Voice last, as I understand that it needs a lot of practice before making surgery worthwhile. Assuming I needed it.

Long time lurker here.

What would I go for? FFS for sure, but for everyone it's individual.

What don't I like about myself presently? I feel an overwhelming need to fit into a feminine social role. The genital configuration doesn't really enter into it for me. I can't see how I can fit that role while being "obviously trans", so the solution is FFS.

Split, vote for Electro first as its a pain!

Then it gets difficult, FFS because of age, but likewise Tracheal shave, VFS are also all a level #2, GRS is a third..

Very mind testing, probably it will fall into place once $$ start coming back in

L Katy

For myself I did not consider hair removal as the first procedure as it can be done quite undercover in guy mode.

I did full FFS first, BA next and now I am looking forward to SRS next in about a year. I chose Other as full FFS was not an option. I figured 100% of the world sees my face and about .000000000000000001 % sees the bottom so I put FFS ahead of the rest :)

To do it over I would do it exactly that way in the same order again as it has really worked well for me on all levels.

All the best in what ever order you and others choose!

Electro?  Well, ok ... if that's included, it's actually what I DID do first.  But it's not surgery (thread question).

Quote from: Erica_Y on May 12, 2015, 10:04:48 PM
For myself I did not consider hair removal as the first procedure as it can be done quite undercover in guy mode.

I did full FFS first, BA next and now I am looking forward to SRS next in about a year. I chose Other as full FFS was not an option. I figured 100% of the world sees my face and about .000000000000000001 % sees the bottom so I put FFS ahead of the rest :)

To do it over I would do it exactly that way in the same order again as it has really worked well for me on all levels.

All the best in what ever order you and others choose!

That's true, but is still a cost, I agree for surgical FFS, or VFS..... err
But in reality FFS could be done on the cusp of guy mode to girl mode, but Voice and Trachea are also give away's obviously the latter being projection size... Voice is tough, early into my adulthood I could still sing in Soprano, Alto being my norm... but as age and no more voice practicing that died...

Actually, probably Voice (VFS) would be before FFS.

Thanks Erica you helped me decide planning order - Yay..
xx

L Katy

I chose other, because luckily after 2 years on HRT I now pass pretty much 100%. Occasionally things give me away, but I have no Adams apple, very small feet and hands. I now have 44B cup breasts and my waist has started to reappear and I have lost a lot of upper body weight and  I have added 2"to my bottom. I also have skinny arms.

I have had a lot of Laser/Electrolysis already.

For me the number 1 and 2 feminization procedures are:
1. Lipo to the waist, back & tummy and fat grafting to the hips and bottom like Calicarly and Jennygirl. (I would like to have more of an hour glass shape)
2. Breast Augmentation as I would love to have fuller breasts - my ideal size would be 44DD.

QuoteThanks Erica you helped me decide planning order - Yay..

Awesome!!  I am glad I could help :)

Thanks everyone for all the votes so far, very interesting! I think personally I'll be exploring a brow ridge reduction and forehead smoothing since my SRS is done.

I have already had breast augmentation surgery so I guess for me the question is: What procedure would I have 2nd.
I plan to have GRS in early 2016.  Initially, I thought about having "brow bossing" at the same time, but after due consideration and the advice from a medical professional, I have decided to limit myself to GRS next. The advice I received was that due to my age, my recovery was likely to be more stressful than if I was in my 20's or 30's.  Make's sense to fully recover from the "big one" and tackle the fine tuning later.

all things external are how you are being seen. The GRS is quite rightfully so a personal measure which has a tremendous impact on self but merely zero impact on the "how they see you its how they paint you"
FFS as a procedure is the necessary evil so to speak for anyone starting transition in their twenties and after. However, even though face may spell a blissful gender mark, the rest is in the detail of poise, speech, bodybuilt, etc...

I could run of a list based on those in the pole above and finish it with "in a perfect world" but being realistic and based on real world current circumstances the most important and vital procedure for me would have to be an "orchi", put bluntly, castration.

The mental distress that the poison these things produce and release into my body is far to overwhelming. Sure, Spiro prevents this now but if I run out of med's even just for a little while, I start feeling incredibly ill when they start producing T again.

To never have to experience that again would be bliss.

Then suddenly out of the blue, I will win Lotto and have

VFS
FFS
GRS

All in the same week if possible  ;D

Quote from: Blush on May 11, 2015, 01:12:34 PM

I'm at work and I was looking at one of my female collegues (I promise I'm not weird...), and it's so difficult to see which specific area or aspect might make a woman more feminine!

A much smaller skull/face than a man's. A less thick neck, a smaller torso etc.

Forehead contour (im a man... without this)
Rhino (i be an ugly woman without this)
Voice (man)

Plus hormones... i would pass.

Throw in hip implants and jaw contour for beauty sakes... adams apple... and

Tattoo make up
Breast implants
Booty implants
Hair removal
Elf ears
Medusa piercings
Black hair extensions
Corset

Hmmm... id be hot.

I would pick FFS 1000 times out of 1000. If I had a feminine face pre HRT, I would have transitioned 20+ years ago. And no one single procedure would accomplish that for me anyways. It would be like changing only 3 out of 4 flat tires. I consider electrolysis one of my key accomplishments but I would have ways around facial hair if I had a nice face. Yes GRS is a major goal, but it's not as important as FFS for me.

Personally after some thought I think (besides SRS which gives you the most feminine feature possible, a vagina!) I think it may be brow ridge feminization; often the eyes are the first thing people gravitate to when they look at you, or at least when you're interfacing with someone. Brow ridge feminization from what I've seen completely takes someone back that you're a woman no doubt. This is the procedure I'll be going for next.