It's probably the biggest load of crap in the whole trans process. I really hate that some healthcare professionals feel the need to interfere with my personal life and force me to do something that I'm not comfortable with. Not all of them are guilty of this, but a decent amount are if you want to proceed and not be stuck. If you get maimed in an accident and have your nose partially turned to hamburger meat, reconstructive surgeons don't need proof that you once had a nose, used it to smell things, and force you to wear some fake nose and mustache around for a while just to be absolutely sure that you can function in society as someone that can't really fool anyone into thinking that they currently have a nose. As it turns out, I have enough trouble saving up for all of these procedures that are so conveniently not covered by pretty much everyone without having to spend tons of money going through an entire wardrobe change to look like an overly obvious ->-bleeped-<-. If that was my goal, what in the hell do I need a surgeon for when I can just run down to Wal-Mart and grab a single outfit to go out cross dressing in? It's not even safe. I have no intention of actually participating in this flaming hoops act, I'll find someone who will sign off on it long before I stoop to that.
I find it barbaric to say at the least.
I've decided on my own RLE. I don't see the need to "prove" myself to anyone.
However if you really need to do this because of therapy, you could always go in girl/guymode when you see that person.
I cried a lot about it in the early months because I couldn't fathom it but after giving it some time and understanding... I don't really mind anymore.
"without having to spend tons of money going through an entire wardrobe change to look like an overly obvious ->-bleeped-<-."
Yep, that's what holds me back too, I will only emulate rather then be... But I do like pretty clothes so if it's only "that" to convince others, possibly myself, i'll take it.
It could be very fun also :).
Yes it's scary and it could have implications but don't let that take you down or withold you from what you really want to.
I mean, this is what you want, no?
Thanks for making this post. It helped me with a decision I was pondering.
This says it all:
https://www.susans.org/2015/08/03/rle-civil-rights-issue/
I found RLE perfectly acceptable. I think it is smart to see how you deal with social, work and other situations before you have changed all your papers, IDs, etc. Beside that it is a requirement for all under WPATH Standards of Care. I would rather find out before I had no way out of any issue's to address before hand. Most I have spoken too appreciated it as a natural pause and adjustment period. :)
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 13, 2015, 04:41:45 AM
This says it all:
https://www.susans.org/2015/08/03/rle-civil-rights-issue/
Omg this site is so wonderful
Well I certainly added that to my book of arguments XD
The artice and other research article all state that there is no need for RLE, there is no advantage. Its barbaric and very easily circumvented.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 13, 2015, 04:53:09 AM
I found RLE perfectly acceptable. I think it is smart to see how you deal with social, work and other situations before you have changed all your papers, IDs, etc. Beside that it is a requirement for all under WPATH Standards of Care. I would rather find out before I had no way out of any issue's to address before hand. Most I have spoken too appreciated it as a natural pause and adjustment period. :)
I agree, but I hope you've girded up your loins and fastened your armour. I think some people think that doctors sit around trying to make our lives hard.
Quote from: warlockmaker on August 13, 2015, 05:26:46 AM
The artice and other research article all state that there is no need for RLE, there is no advantage. Its barbaric and very easily circumvented.
Maybe it would help if people realised that RLE is for them, for their own good. Mine forced me to confront several issues and my transition was better for it.
Now, I realise I am getting into a semi-religious argument here and I dislike that, but I am too stupid to ignore stuff like this so I will leave you all to it, but try remembering that sometimes the harder route can turn out to be the best.
I think it is excruciatingly damaging. In Denmark (I don't know about other countries) you need to live through RLE for 6 months I think it is, it might be more though, before you can even start HRT.
So you are forced to look like someone you don't want to be essentially. It is so wrong and it makes me so angry that the treatment of ->-bleeped-<- is so far behind, in Denmark specifically.
I'm lucky enough to have started HRT in Spain, and I'm continuing in Denmark because my doctor is confident that what I'm doing is right (even though only one clinique in the capital administers treatment). It's grotesque.
I can't help but post on these topics, but I fear I'm getting repetitive. I'll try for a slightly different angle.
The reason I keep posting is that I never wanted to follow what's in WPATH (or anything else) and it's caused a great deal of stress having gender issues and being told I have to do the wrong thing. If only it had been easy to follow my own path in the first place I'd have arrived at the same point I have now, but without all the stress along the way. Maybe even without the depression.
The world is full of variety, which we see in these posts where people stand on opposite sides of the discussion. No doubt some of the people complaining of gatekeeping actually do have mental health issues that need resolving first, and yet other times its the therapists that actually engage in real gatekeeping. I feel that a key difference between these sides is that I just want to be left alone, while the other side wants to tell me what to do.
I don't know whats best for other people, I just want freedom for myself, and I count myself lucky that I have the ability to take it. I do feel for those who can't.
So I've learned a thing or two over the years; things I wish I'd know from the start. If you're intelligent, determined, and have a bit of money you can basically ignore the entire WPATH SOC. Doing so is sufficiently difficult that its probably a good test of mental stability, and at the end of the day I'd not recommend it unless you have a really really good reason. It's a lot easier to just put up with all the crap and unfairness and do what you're told.
RLE before hormones = cruel and degrading practice
RLE before SRS - highly emotionally loaded topic, yet it is debatable with pros and cons for both sides (if You asked me a year ago, my answer would have been totally different). Still, I am not following the WPATH and doing my own interpretation of RLE, which works (for me) and helps to understand some things better and from another perspective.
P.S. And everytime I see that something is forced, my inner anarchist just has to rebel :).
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on August 13, 2015, 08:01:25 AM
RLE before hormones = cruel and degrading practice
RLE before SRS - highly emotionally loaded topic, yet it is debatable with pros and cons for both sides (if You asked me a year ago, my answer would have been totally different). Still, I am not following the WPATH and doing my own interpretation of RLE, which works (for me) and helps to understand some things better and from another perspective.
P.S. And everytime I see that something is forced, my inner anarchist just has to rebel :).
I kind of agree with this. I think that RLE for SRS is perfectly acceptable. Not only that but your surgeon will want you on HRT for some time anyway.
But requiring it before HRT is just wrong and damaging. The main reason is that few people can "pass" without some HRT and it may be more damaging for them. The other is that for many people the HRT may bring about much welcome mental changes.
Just my opinion.
It's the same in Belgium here (I believe)
One year RLE before you get hormones.
-_-
Thank Anonyms I will keep this in mind.
For me the most horrible thing about RLE before hormones is:
shame, pain & guilt because i'm not a woman and no matter how hard I try it just feels I emulate by acquiring characteristics, clothing or stereotypical behaviour.
Oh and the dread and fear because you get recognized instantly... Yes I feel so safe !
>:(!
I do like shopping for clothes so that's alright :P
Quote from: Swayallday on August 13, 2015, 08:07:56 AM
It's the same in Belgium here (I believe)
One year RLE before you get hormones.
-_-
Thank Anonyms I will keep this in mind.
I am not sure about this - I met transgender expert from the gender clinic in Ghent and he said that they have pretty modern approach where they schedule interviews, take the tests and then arrange everything up, including the State-funded SRS...
~.~ darling I should really go to Ghent.
Quote from: Swayallday on August 13, 2015, 08:11:07 AM
~.~ darling I should really go to Ghent.
I can give You the contact info ;)
Quote from: Swayallday on August 13, 2015, 08:07:56 AM
It's the same in Belgium here (I believe)
One year RLE before you get hormones.
-_-
Thank Anonyms I will keep this in mind.
For me the most horrible thing about RLE before hormones is:
shame, pain & guilt because i'm not a woman and no matter how hard I try it just feels I emulate by acquiring characteristics, clothing or stereotypical behaviour.
Oh and the dread and fear because you get recognized instantly... Yes I feel so safe !
>:(!
I do like shopping for clothes so that's alright :P
If you are interested in hrt you might ask... don't let tis keep you from trying and asking around.
Quite a few countries are adapting because they might be liable if people are attacked...
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on August 13, 2015, 08:01:25 AM
RLE before hormones = cruel and degrading practice
RLE before SRS - highly emotionally loaded topic, yet it is debatable with pros and cons for both sides (if You asked me a year ago, my answer would have been totally different). Still, I am not following the WPATH and doing my own interpretation of RLE, which works (for me) and helps to understand some things better and from another perspective.
P.S. And everytime I see that something is forced, my inner anarchist just has to rebel :).
I was fortunate in that I found a GP who had been a gay rights activist when he was a medical student. I was prescribed hormones with informed consent and I was able to get on with making my transition without having to be messed around by gatekeepers. Unfortunately my daughter ended up being snared by gatekeepers when she was trying to begin HRT and from what I saw as a parent trying to support her child the therapists we tried were either completely clueless or else were trying to fleece us of every coin we had to our name.
RLE enforced by gatekeepers is nothing short of cruel, inhumane and degrading and nothing will change my opinion on that.
Quote from: AnonyMs on August 13, 2015, 07:48:30 AM... If you're intelligent, determined, and have a bit of money you can basically ignore the entire WPATH SOC.
It worked for me but I still had to buy two letters. Having a single-minded determination towards SRS. Helped put my (good) doctors, (good) therapist and surgeon at ease.
When I first sought HRT in the UK it was compulsory to go through RLE, after 2 years this stupid idea was dropped.
I think RLE is cruelty almost beyond words, for those who are fortunate enough to pass RLE isn't a problem.
If like me you don't pass then RLE can be a humiliating and sometimes dangerous thing, during this time I experienced nothing of what its like to be female and everything about being an obvious target for all the nasty people that exist on this planet, I've been spat at, verbally abused and assaulted.
I did experience real life but it was a life of scorn and misery, after one year of this I started only dressing femme when going to the gender clinic. The rest of my time I wore only female clothes but kept to the more androgynous women's clothes in an attempt to be myself whilst beating the system and the therapists who would say you weren't making enough effort to present unless you had makeup on an inch thick.
Quote from: iKate on August 13, 2015, 08:06:38 AM
I kind of agree with this. I think that RLE for SRS is perfectly acceptable.
I disagree.
Quote from: vcjhyt on August 13, 2015, 05:38:34 AM
Maybe it would help if people realised that RLE is for them, for their own good.
OK, I'll bite. Let's put aside for the moment that it causes hardship, is coercive, and was put in place without input from us by people who have no clue what GID feels like.
How does it help us? And can you (or anyone else) prove that it helps us?
Before group A places restrictions on group B for group B's own good, the very least they should have to do is to prove it actually helps group B. Do you agree?
Quote from: vcjhyt on August 13, 2015, 05:38:34 AM
Maybe it would help if people realised that RLE is for them, for their own good.
I'm feeling bitey too...
If I do RLE I'll be getting divorced and I've children to love and look after. No doubt I'll be totally happy apart from screwing up my life and that of my family.
Or I don't do RLE, so no HRT or SRS for me, and I kill myself.
Or I don't do RLE and I do get HRT/SRS/whatever, and I stay sane and married, though perhaps not 100% satisfied.
Hmmm... what to choose?
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 13, 2015, 10:22:06 AM
How does it help us? And can you (or anyone else) prove that it helps us?
I'm proof that RLE can in some cases be detrimental to the patient, the problems it caused me did not go away when the requirement was dropped.
I have to battle anxiety evert time I go outside, I get frequent panic attacks on buses forcing me to get off a crowded bus and waiting for an almost empty one. I now get nervous in any crowded area.
This doesn't change me being trans it just means I have feelings that can only take so much
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 13, 2015, 10:22:06 AM
OK, I'll bite. Let's put aside for the moment that it causes hardship, is coercive, and was put in place without input from us by people who have no clue what GID feels like.
How does it help us? And can you (or anyone else) prove that it helps us?
Before group A places restrictions on group B for group B's own good, the very least they should have to do is to prove it actually helps group B. Do you agree?
Well since the referral to only SRS was deleted...
imo it was to quite some extent in places where complete treatment was covered... as kind of hurdle to ensure its people really meaning it...
which imo is a ) not really compassionate and b ) went too far... in many places its lifted because of possibly being held responsible if people are attacked...
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on August 13, 2015, 08:01:25 AM
RLE before hormones = cruel and degrading practice
RLE before SRS - highly emotionally loaded topic
Totally agree Emily!
There is a medical protocol to transitioning. It is known about the moment you get on this path. If you disagree with it fine, don't transition. If you want things to change become a political lobbyist and make change happen. Most all of us have done RLE and learned a lot which led to better, healthier and more stable transitions. Fighting the system in the incorrect way will only make things worse for us. Skirting the requirements can have the same effect. If you want the current protocol and system to change then engage, don't complain. Only through doing it the right way will our community earn the right to proceed as we feel we need to.
RLE before HRT or surgery is arbitrary, capricious and treats us as a different class of people. This prejudice and discrimination are wrong with no proof of benefits provided. If you or I choose to take the time or are counseled to be certain about our decisions that's fine with me but the freedom to control our bodies should be a universally recognized right.
I worked in surgery and obstetrics for 33 years and was part of teams that did all kinds of surgery to ensure people had the breasts, erections and/or vaginoplasty they feel they needed. Cis men are able to get viagra or testosterone without a note from a mental health therapist. All women should be able to determine what hormones and surgery they need in consultation with their primary provider. It is insulting and demeaning to me that someone thinks they know me and my needs better than I do. Being transgender is not a disease and I would rather not cede any of my freedoms to choose what is best for me.
Consider the cis gender people who have multiple surgeries for cosmetic reasons and/or to improve their happiness. Even after dozens of such surgeries there is no requirement to get a letter from a mental health therapist.
A cisgender woman wants a breast reduction or augmentation, no problem, and it will likely be covered by insurance too. The medical world is generally conservative and a change in practice is after precedent and proof that there is a better drug or procedure.
It is clear to me that we are treated differently and that being transgender is still stigmatized and seen as radical and extreme by too many in a place where compassionate care should be the rule.
I am one of those who is working to challenge and change the system from within and from outside. I am on the third stage of appeals. There is more than one right way to do this as one size does not fit all, that's diversity.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 13, 2015, 12:46:15 PM
Totally agree Emily!
There is a medical protocol to transitioning. It is known about the moment you get on this path. If you disagree with it fine, don't transition. If you want things to change become a political lobbyist and make change happen. Most all of us have done RLE and learned a lot which led to better, healthier and more stable transitions. Fighting the system in the incorrect way will only make things worse for us. Skirting the requirements can have the same effect. If you want the current protocol and system to change then engage, don't complain. Only through doing it the right way will our community earn the right to proceed as we feel we need to.
I really don't agree Jessica. I went full time once I started HRT and I didn't have any therapist trying to tell me how to do it or passing comments about how I wasn't doing it right. I simply got on with it which is exactly what I've been doing for the past 24 years. My orchi surgery was entirely by informed consent because the surgeon was smart enough to recognise that someone who'd been holding down a mainstream job in a full time female role must know what they're doing.
The so-called medical protocol for transitioning is entirely based upon the medicalisation of gender which is an artificial Western concept which has caused considerable harm to many. I'm intersex and so is my daughter so this is a fairly hot topic for me by the way. Disagreement with the 'protocol' being a barrier to transition as you implied in your posting is exactly what I find inhumane and demeaning about the whole medical gender change industry. I feel glad that I transitioned back before the New Zealand medical profession really started to buy into the 'protocol', because it was hard enough being me without having some money hungry therapist in private practice trying to bleed me dry before she'd let me through the 'gate'.
Nobody transitions on a whim, if you're doing it you're serious about it and the 'protocol' is just a barrier in the way on the journey to being yourself.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 13, 2015, 12:46:15 PM
Totally agree Emily!
There is a medical protocol to transitioning. It is known about the moment you get on this path. If you disagree with it fine, don't transition. If you want things to change become a political lobbyist and make change happen. Most all of us have done RLE and learned a lot which led to better, healthier and more stable transitions. Fighting the system in the incorrect way will only make things worse for us. Skirting the requirements can have the same effect. If you want the current protocol and system to change then engage, don't complain. Only through doing it the right way will our community earn the right to proceed as we feel we need to.
Hi Jessica,
I think I disagree with almost everything you just said. There's a medical protocol, but I never agreed to it, it doesn't represent my interests and since I don't have to I'm not going to follow it. I'm not afraid to admit that everyone else is wrong. There's been endless cases of the medical profession being in the wrong, and I'm confident that time will prove me right.
I don't accept the limited ways forward you're proposing. I like my one.
Call me selfish if you like but I'm looking after myself and my family; other people don't come into it and certainly not any community that I'm not even part of. I actually feel quite alone and unsupported in my views and the path I'm taking. The several people I share common views with on this site are a very tiny community, though I do love hearing from them.
I disagree agree that fighting against the system is harming the "community". I have a more positive take on the fight against injustice.
Medical protocols including RLE are not based on sound research into whether that improves outcomes. They are based on the prejudices and gut feelings of occasionally well-meaning doctors. Given that, arguments that we owe it to anyone to work within that system are not convincing. The system is, quite simply, not designed to serve our needs so much as to minimize the number of people who transition.
IMO, the only requirements for either HRT or SRS ought to be 1) persistent dysphoria/desire to transition genders, and 2) the absence of otherwise treatable causes for that dysphoria/desire. Demonstrating and documenting these does not require RLE.
RLE might be helpful for some people, but the reality is that it is not a safe option for many, many people. Requiring it endangers many people, discourages many others who would be helped by medical transition but are unwilling to risk unaided RLE, and has not been demonstrated to help anyone(*).
It is also a biased and sexist process, as it is not at all difficult to find modern examples of therapists who enforce their ideas of femininity in order to "count" the RLE. Didn't show up in a dress and heels for the appointment? Reset the RLE clock... Since there is no legitimate defintion of what it means to live as female or male, it's not even a well defined requirement.
RLE may be a good idea for some, but as a requirement to diagnose or obtain medically necessary treatments, it is inappropriate nonsense.
(*) Careful here: it probably has helped some people, in the sense that people have decided through RLE not to transition and reached a better outcome. That doesn't mean it's effective. Randomly picking 10% of those seeking HRT or SRS and refusing them treatment would also occasionally prevent someone from undergoing a treatment they would be better off without. It needs to be shown that RLE selectively weeds out cases where the treatment is inappropriate.
Lets tackle this from another angle. How can you make an informed decision about surgery if you don't know what life will be like after surgery. Before RLE, I was totally unprepared to even put on a proper face much less face the public in a dress. RLE forced me to learn how to produce a presentable female image that I was comfortable with in public. It gave me enough time in therapy that my mind was also ready for life as a woman. After surgery, I returned to therapy for a free of charge follow up but as I did all the required work before surgery, the follow up really wasn't required.
As for gate keepers, I was lucky encountering the group. The group would meet 4 times a month and you needed to attend two meeting a month. Private session at that time was $60 and hour and the group was $60 a month regardless of the number of meeting you attended. You only needed to show that you had thought everything out and you had no mental conditions that would prevent you from deciding for yourself. The standard was one year of cross living and hormones were permitted before you started cross living. I only know of one person who was denied surgery and she felt she was above the written test that were given to her so she played with the answers. She couldn't be certified as able to make the decision for herself and required more therapy.
Anyone who finds these standards harsh may not fully understand that with proper treatment SRS is a pretty minor part of package. Without proper treatment before SRS, you could face some real mental problems after surgery.
I am more sympathetic for surgery than for HRT, since it does relatively little to aid in "passability." However, again, without some evidence that forcing people to jump through this hoop actually helps anyone, it's inconsistent with the standards for other similar medical procedures.
The usual, and apt, comparison is with breast augmentation for cis females: a year of RLE with a stuffed bra would be far less intrusive than cross-gender RLE, and regret rates are (I believe, though without a specific source) relatively high.
Last I checked, the only requirement prior to a nose job is ability to pay... and plenty of people end up with bad ones.
If the interest here were wholly with protecting us from making a bad surgical decision, there'd be similar requirements for other, non-taboo surgeries. But there aren't, and nobody seems to complain about that...
Quote from: Dena on August 13, 2015, 04:25:55 PM
Lets tackle this from another angle. How can you make an informed decision about surgery if you don't know what life will be like after surgery. Before RLE, I was totally unprepared to even put on a proper face much less face the public in a dress. RLE forced me to learn how to produce a presentable female image that I was comfortable with in public. It gave me enough time in therapy that my mind was also ready for life as a woman. After surgery, I returned to therapy for a free of charge follow up but as I did all the required work before surgery, the follow up really wasn't required.
Very valid argument.
nontheless
I can't comfortably present a female image.
To be fair, I'd have hoped to live full time by the time I get to surgery.
There are as many ways to be trans as there are trans people, yet we have a one-size-fits-all approach to treating us foist upon us by cis people who apparently think they know what our best interests are better than we do.
I think RLE should be nothing more than a suggestion.
I believe it currently exists so that if there are regrets and lawsuits down the road, the medical professionals can testify that they "went by the book".
RLE=CYA
That being said, I went full time voluntarily after 2 months of HRT because "boy mode" in public felt ludicrous. I had my letters and orchi per WPATH. I just hope that when the time comes for the "whole shebang", I am not required to jump through any more hoops. I think that after 2 1/2 years I've paid my freaking dues already.
Quote from: Jill F on August 13, 2015, 05:34:26 PM
There are as many ways to be trans as there are trans people, yet we have a one-size-fits-all approach to treating us foist upon us by cis people who apparently think they know what our best interests are better than we do.
Yes! It is discriminatory against non-conventional sexual orientations or gender expressions in a huge way. Until quite recently, I would not ever be eligible for treatment because I am not attracted to men. A specific requirement was that you identify as a heterosexual woman.
Not to mention, there is no need to present in any particular way to be a woman. I primarily have body / genital dysphoria. If I decided that I didn't want to change anything about my appearance or behavior besides GRS, why should that not be permitted? Because that gender expression is not "normal"?
As long as I am capable of understanding and accepting the risk of regret, which by all indications is extraordinarily low for GRS, I ought to be able to opt in, perhaps subject to a "waiting period" to establish that my desire is persistent.
Quote from: AnonyMs on August 13, 2015, 02:54:55 PM
I'm not afraid to admit that everyone else is wrong.
Ok, now I get it. Good luck in the future. :)
Quote from: jeni on August 13, 2015, 06:23:24 PM
perhaps subject to a "waiting period" to establish that my desire is persistent.
Part of the reason behind RLE. I agree I think these rules need to go, but I do feel some way of ensuring people are making sound choices and won't come back and say I regret this now and impact our ability to proceed. The risk they take for themselves needs to be limited to them so as to not have consequences for others. Control that. I'm all for a better idea. What that exactly looks like is hard to say. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 13, 2015, 12:46:15 PM
Only through doing it the right way will our community earn the right to proceed as we feel we need to.
Why do we need to earn the right to control our own bodies? Aren't they our bodies? Who controls them if we fail to earn the right?
Quote from: Mariah2014 on August 13, 2015, 07:28:48 PM
Part of the reason behind RLE. I agree I think these rules need to go, but I do feel some way of ensuring people are making sound choices and won't come back and say I regret this now and impact our ability to proceed. The risk they take for themselves needs to be limited to them so as to not have consequences for others. Control that. I'm all for a better idea. What that exactly looks like is hard to say.
It seems pretty straightforward to me: see a care provider a few times over the course of whatever period of time (a year seems reasonable to me, though arbitrary---I doubt gender identity is linked to planetary orbital mechanics) and demonstrate that you still want the treatment. This prevents someone from doing this on a whim, and gives the provider time to establish that they are of reasonably sound mind to make a decision like this. It's more than is required for plenty of permanent choices that could result in serious regret (prominent tattoos, plastic surgery).
(I didn't state outright earlier, but a diagnosis of gender dysphoria (or whatever the best diagnostic term for "being trans" is in the future) ought to be needed as well, IMO.)
Another issue is that it hasn't even been shown that RLE dissuades anyone from obtaining surgery they "shouldn't" have---i.e., we don't even know that it is at all effective at preventing cases of eventual regret. It's a tempting, but really not very sound assumption, that it's better at preventing regret than just waiting a year.
The biggest support I got during my transition was from sensible GPs with their hearts in the right place. I went full time as soon as I started HRT which was like entering a warzone. My experiences during my first two years included being pelted with stones by a group of youths and later on the same year being raped. The Police officers I spoke to after my rape laughed at me and weren't remotely interested in doing anything about it. If RLE is forced on anyone making a transition this kind of thing is very likely to happen to them too. Yes I was living full time on a completely voluntary basis, but then I was completely determined that I wasn't going to live a lie anymore. Fortunately I happened to be a strong individual who wasn't going to let the b@stards grind her down. Not everyone entering transition is likely to be a bloody minded woman of Irish descent like me and all forced RLE would do is make them miserable, even more dysphoric and likely to off themselves.
If anything being raped only served to increase my determination and set my feet on the path to becoming a social worker. Social work is largely a women's club and studying to be a social worker in the company of other strong women did more for my self esteem than anything else I've ever done. I also joined a women's writers group which helped to affirm than I was completely and un-apologetically a woman who had something to offer. In a way I suppose this was my 'therapy' and it did me far more good than paying some gatekeeper therapist my hard earned money could have ever done.
Please correct me if I am wrong. When WPATH was written we were considered to have a mental condition and now it has been proven to be a medical condition. Why can we not be treated like any other medical condition,and just treated with the appropriate therapy that will help us maintain the stability that we all desire.
In reality what is under our clothes is no ones business but ours and the person we are intimate with. I know m2f 's that are totally complete but still present male at work,and also f2m that bind still have their original bottoms and present male.What we choose to have done and how we choose to present should be up to us as responsible human beings to decide.
That being said my GCS date is Dec 8th by that time I will have 2.5 years RLE and 2 years HRT. GCS will be completed 3 months before my 66 birthday. I started late in life and I am glad that I did complete the RLE and The 2 years on hormones. That time was a definite learning experience. It enabled me to grow and mature as a full time woman, GCS is just whipped cream and a cherry on top of a wonderful life.. Patty
I am also a DES baby who knew early on that they were different, and it just got progressively worse as I aged.
Maybe we should ask if any of us that have done RLE have decided not to transition, because of this experience? I am hopefully not being condesending but could it be that those who had RLE before surgery feel that they have "paid their dues" under the rules and now feel that everyone must take this route, no shortcuts etc.. Research has shown us that we must change the RLE requirements, if we dont change and move forward then we will stay in the dark ages
Quote from: warlockmaker on August 13, 2015, 09:52:47 PM
Maybe we should ask if any of us that have done RLE have decided not to transition, because of this experience? I am hopefully not being condesending but could it be that those who had RLE before surgery feel that they have "paid their dues" under the rules and now feel that everyone must take this route, no shortcuts etc.. Research has shown us that we must change the RLE requirements, if we dont change and move forward then we will stay in the dark ages
With me it has nothing to do with others paying their dues, my goal is to help others make the transition as simple and painless as possible and if you ever find a post where I am clearly not doing that, call me on it. I had two years of RLE and I wasn't ready for surgery until near the end of the second year. I know with a doubt that I would have had adjustment problems post surgical without that second year. There is something that happens in RLE where you lose the dysphoria and in my case, I became a woman in body and spirit. I don't think a person is really ready to decide if surgery is right for them until they reach that point. Granted some people may reach that point faster than me and some slower so one years is an artificial limit, but I don't really have a good way to judge the change in mindset.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 13, 2015, 12:46:15 PM
Totally agree Emily!
There is a medical protocol to transitioning. It is known about the moment you get on this path. If you disagree with it fine, don't transition. If you want things to change become a political lobbyist and make change happen. Most all of us have done RLE and learned a lot which led to better, healthier and more stable transitions. Fighting the system in the incorrect way will only make things worse for us. Skirting the requirements can have the same effect. If you want the current protocol and system to change then engage, don't complain. Only through doing it the right way will our community earn the right to proceed as we feel we need to.
Right? Because that belief
definitely doesn't justify the deaths of those who have been forced into RLE in heavily transphobic areas and subsequently murdered. At least they died while being coerced into doing something that was unsafe and that they didn't feel that they were ready for. Sounds kinda like rape and murder but it's okay because it's not as overtly wrong. I mean come on, they should have used the money that they probably didn't have to become lobbyists who have such a great record when it comes to fixing problems and not creating them.
Quote from: Dena on August 13, 2015, 04:25:55 PM
Lets tackle this from another angle. How can you make an informed decision about surgery if you don't know what life will be like after surgery. Before RLE, I was totally unprepared to even put on a proper face much less face the public in a dress. RLE forced me to learn how to produce a presentable female image that I was comfortable with in public. It gave me enough time in therapy that my mind was also ready for life as a woman. After surgery, I returned to therapy for a free of charge follow up but as I did all the required work before surgery, the follow up really wasn't required.
I'm all for looking at another angle otherwise we're all going to keep repeating the same arguments and get nowhere.
Say I want SRS but keep living as male. It's not ideal, but a pragmatic solution to my problems. I guess you could say I've been doing RLE all my life, so I pass the RLE requirements. I don't think that argument would go down to well with many people. but I am transgender and sane, so why not?
Quote from: Dena on August 13, 2015, 04:25:55 PM
Anyone who finds these standards harsh may not fully understand that with proper treatment SRS is a pretty minor part of package. Without proper treatment before SRS, you could face some real mental problems after surgery.
I don't have your long experience, but I do agree with you that its a minor part. I don't understand why you'd have any new problems after surgery though. If you're transgender how could SRS cause you problems?
I wish some non-binary people would jump in and say something as I think they could really contribute here. I remember lots of that when I first joined a year ago.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on August 13, 2015, 06:29:14 PM
Quote from: AnonyMs on August 13, 2015, 02:54:55 PM
I'm not afraid to admit that everyone else is wrong.
Ok, now I get it. Good luck in the future. :)
Yes, exactly, if only everyone said that and left me alone instead of trying to tell me what to do. Thanks.
Quote from: Dena on August 13, 2015, 04:25:55 PM
Lets tackle this from another angle. How can you make an informed decision about surgery if you don't know what life will be like after surgery. Before RLE, I was totally unprepared to even put on a proper face much less face the public in a dress. RLE forced me to learn how to produce a presentable female image that I was comfortable with in public. It gave me enough time in therapy that my mind was also ready for life as a woman. After surgery, I returned to therapy for a free of charge follow up but as I did all the required work before surgery, the follow up really wasn't required.
Anyone who finds these standards harsh may not fully understand that with proper treatment SRS is a pretty minor part of package. Without proper treatment before SRS, you could face some real mental problems after surgery.
Well, I don't understand.
How does being forced to dress as someone who obviously doesn't pass get a person ready to be someone who does pass?
What part of being dressed in public with clothes of your desired gender most prepares someone to have their genitals rearranged?
In the spirit of trying different angles here's an interesting article.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/08/psychology-group-bans-members-from-harsh-national-security-interrogations/
It about the American Psychological Association banning members from being involved in torture. The comments to the article are far more interesting than the article itself, but it provides the necessary context to understand them.
There seems to be a lot of faith in the "system", and I've no idea why. Its made up or people, and people are as everywhere good and bad. It helps to understand that when you place you life in their hands.
Quote from: AnonyMs on August 13, 2015, 11:46:20 PM
I wish some non-binary people would jump in and say something as I think they could really contribute here. I remember lots of that when I first joined a year ago.
I'm intersex and non-binary. When I talk about myself in femme terms I mean 'not male' which is a bad habit I know but there's no real word in English I truly like to describe my identity. My daughter is intersex and identifies as being outside of the binary paradigm too. She has partial internal female anatomy without any opening to the outside of her body. She told me last night that she was very pleased that my ex and I as her parents wouldn't let doctors mess with her when she was a child. In my daughter's case her own natural testosterone levels were toxic for her and it still angers me that she had to play the gatekeeper game and pretend to be transgender to get the HRT she needed.
When I got my tattoo (which I carefully designed myself and thought hard about) I didn't have to go to a therapist first. Same when I got my ears pierced. I strongly dislike (hate?) the medicalisation of gender and don't get me started on what doctors did to kids like me to remedy the 'social emergency' that the act of simply being born sparked off.
By the way Dena you don't have to worry, you are very much a kind and loving honorary 'Mum' to all of us and this forum would be a sadder place without you. I do agree with you that therapy is valuable, - I'm having therapy sessions myself at the moment, - but what I disagree with is the mandating of therapy as a requirement before and during transition. Informed consent should be sufficient for any medical procedure and while therapy or counselling might be recommended it should remain just that a recommendation.
Quote from: Jean24 on August 13, 2015, 11:57:19 PM
Well, I don't understand.
How does being forced to dress as someone who obviously doesn't pass get a person ready to be someone who does pass?
What part of being dressed in public with clothes of your desired gender most prepares someone to have their genitals rearranged?
SRS will not make you pass any better than you would before surgery. It's far better to know how you will be accepted by society before you make the decision for surgery instead of after when the surgery can't be reversed. I never said you had to pass before you had surgery, just that you know what life will be like. I have seen a couple of threads on the board in the last month were people have regretted their decision and possibly more time might have avoided the mistake.
Quote
Say I want SRS but keep living as male. It's not ideal, but a pragmatic solution to my problems. I guess you could say I've been doing RLE all my life, so I pass the RLE requirements. I don't think that argument would go down to well with many people. but I am transgender and sane, so why not?
How do you know you are transgender without RLE? If you are transgender, RLE will provide the relief from dysphoria, SRS will not provide relief from dysphoria.
QuoteI don't have your long experience, but I do agree with you that its a minor part. I don't understand why you'd have any new problems after surgery though. If you're transgender how could SRS cause you problems?
In my case, I returned to work to soon after surgery and lost my job as the result of it. I have no reason to believe that events would have played out differently if I had my surgery a year earlier before I fully accepted myself as a woman. In real life, I cussed and beat the daylights out of pillow for a couple of day but I never regretted or blamed my surgery,
In the alternate universe, as I was not yet secure with my self image, doubt would have been in my mind as to if the surgery was right for me and I would have had the doubt combined with the anger over the loss of my job. Not a healthy combination.
Mod Edit- Telling someone else how to transition is against TOS 10.
:police:
Ok folks, Just a friendly reminder. Lets please keep it civil. Thanks
Mariah
Quote
By the way Dena you don't have to worry, you are very much a kind and loving honorary 'Mum' to all of us and this forum would be a sadder place without you. I do agree with you that therapy is valuable, - I'm having therapy sessions myself at the moment, - but what I disagree with is the mandating of therapy as a requirement before and during transition. Informed consent should be sufficient for any medical procedure and while therapy or counselling might be recommended it should remain just that a recommendation.
I don't know. I have another liberal web site I have argued politics on and fought pretty hard over there. When I came over here, I vowed no politics on this web site because there are more important things to do over here. After I am done with this thread or after the mods shut it down, my image might be a bit soiled.
Really what any therapy should do is decide if you are informed and able to make the decision. In the end, you and only you are responsible for the decision if it is wrong. The problem is this is one medical condition where it is critical that the patient knows as much as or more that the doctors providing the treatment which is pretty much the definition of informed consent.
The passionate responses, even amongst our community, clearly demonstrate that there is a divergence of opinions. Bothe sides feel quite strongly that their view is right and I can see that the discussion is deterioating into some uncivil comments. I am ever so lucky to live in a country that does not require RLE but does require 2 therapist to sign off.
Quote from: Dena on August 14, 2015, 12:46:13 AM
How do you know you are transgender without RLE? If you are transgender, RLE will provide the relief from dysphoria, SRS will not provide relief from dysphoria. In my case, I returned to work to soon after surgery and lost my job as the result of it. I have no reason to believe that events would have played out differently if I had my surgery a year earlier before I fully accepted myself as a woman. In real life, I cussed and beat the daylights out of pillow for a couple of day but I never regretted or blamed my surgery,
In the alternate universe, as I was not yet secure with my self image, doubt would have been in my mind as to if the surgery was right for me and I would have had the doubt combined with the anger over the loss of my job. Not a healthy combination.
Hi Dena,
thanks for replying.
I could say that I know I'm transgender because its a very inclusive term and after being on HRT for so many years I know I'm not cis-normal. But the truth is that I don't care if I'm transgender or not. I long ago gave up trying to understand it, or fit it, and learned to just accept myself for whatever I am. For what its worth my psych thinks I'm transgender.
I'm not at all confident that SRS would fix all my gender problems. It might, it might not, people experience dysphoria in many different ways. Mainly I've been trying not to transition and its been killing me. When I relent and move slowly I'm fine, more or less. So I view SRS as another step along the way that will probably help and likely won't do any harm, and if it keeps me sane another year or two then its a great success. I'm trying to leave the "hardest treatment of the package" until last, precisely because it is the hardest, and if I find I don't need to do it then I've made a lucky escape. And if I do need to do it I can only hope its later when my children are grown up and I won't screw over their lives as well as mine.
You're losing your job is very specific to you. I can't lose my job, but that doesn't really change the arguments for and against.
Quote from: warlockmaker on August 14, 2015, 01:03:14 AM
The passionate responses, even amongst our community, clearly demonstrate that there is a divergence of opinions. Bothe sides feel quite strongly that their view is right and I can see that the discussion is deterioating into some uncivil comments. I am ever so lucky to live in a country that does not require RLE but does require 2 therapist to sign off.
I'd imagine you live in a country where its very easy to get 2 therapists to sign off, and if not there's plenty of others in the region that would. I have the impression that you're the kind of person who gets what they want.
Hi,
Because im a bit different and i know quite a few will very strongly disagree with me and allso hate my guts and many wont wont to have any thing to do with me as i found out .
Some years ago i said that those who were ment to help those who needed it would not unless you jumped through a lot of hoop,s so what ever name you give to those people GP,s Psychs or who ever wont to enforce on you thier will and tell you how you are to live your life , what a lot of utter bull->-bleeped-<- , do they have that right no bloody way ....so we have wpath and the APA now when i heard what they said they were going to do to help trans people i said to others they will change thier wording and a few miner details yet wont help you any more than before so what has changed total nothing , they lied,
so do other people have to go through the same bull->-bleeped-<- to have surgerys say for cancer broken bones or blood transfussion or any life threating issue and are they treated different , ....Well no of cause not and why well lets see you are 1/2 dead and cant talk and have no control of your body so do they wait till you can talk after you wake up , if you do.... oh ...sorry mate .....a bit late . you answer that .
so we who ..NEED ...surgerys why do we get treated different form others ....WELL.....
I by past all of that stuff and paid my own way and went over seas and had what i needed and had a lovely time . those here in New Zealand that i saw GP Psych and Endo did not ask a ? or tell me what i should or not do ,,,I told them what i needed and that was done and when i needed meds and surgerys at my request .
So this is was the difference okay im an intersexed female and just maybe things could have been different for myself yet they wornt , I never dressed in front of them in my female clothes and had no need and what difference would it make ...none...im a person not some outer space being and i was not treated like one , every one went out of thier way to help in any way i needed and total strangers as well ,
some of the surgerys are similar to trans people though yet not so great as to not be of any concern . did i have mental issues no or was i unstable no and i never had dysphoria, I know some surgerys are very different im just saying i am just trying to show there are some likeness in some details .
i know some intersexed people have been treated with contempt and abused and rejected and are those concerns being addressed not in every respect ,
Who are the best people to show the way and give accounts of what we need and not be damn well told we dont know what we are talking about , will wpath change doubt it because money is involved thats one main reason 2 nd is these GP,s Drs and who ever dont wont to listen , so with that in mind we are rejected and told they know better , well you know my word s .......UTTER ....BULL->-bleeped-<-.....
I belive there are some who will help us , we just have to find them . I did over here and in Thailand .
...noeleena...
Quote from: Dena on August 14, 2015, 12:31:15 AM
SRS will not make you pass any better than you would before surgery. It's far better to know how you will be accepted by society before you make the decision for surgery instead of after when the surgery can't be reversed. I never said you had to pass before you had surgery, just that you know what life will be like. I have seen a couple of threads on the board in the last month were people have regretted their decision and possibly more time might have avoided the mistake.
That's exactly my point. SRS has almost nothing to do with presenting in public and not passing in public, so how does it make sense to use presenting in public as a requirement? At what point would someone say "Now that I have been passing/looking drag as hell for a while, I know for a fact that a vagina/penis is for me?"
Not only that but if someone is rejected, they have no idea what being accepted is, which makes going out and figuring out "what life will be like" completely unrepresentative of how things will be as an individual who functions as their desired gender role.
And I remember a few cases where people were glad to have undergone transition and transitioned back. One in particular was on Susan's a few years back and I recall that he described himself as "MTFTM." He went through the whole spectrum and back again, and didn't have any regrets.
Quote from: warlockmaker on August 14, 2015, 01:03:14 AM
The passionate responses, even amongst our community, clearly demonstrate that there is a divergence of opinions. Bothe sides feel quite strongly that their view is right and I can see that the discussion is deterioating into some uncivil comments. I am ever so lucky to live in a country that does not require RLE but does require 2 therapist to sign off.
Which country is that?
Quote
I could say that I know I'm transgender because its a very inclusive term and after being on HRT for so many years I know I'm not cis-normal. But the truth is that I don't care if I'm transgender or not. I long ago gave up trying to understand it, or fit it, and learned to just accept myself for whatever I am. For what its worth my psych thinks I'm transgender.
In only take me a paragraph or two around here to tell if a person is transgender because I have been around so many and heard so many stories. I can't tell exactly where you are on the spectrum because that is for you to decide but I know you aren't on the CIS end or very close to it.
QuoteI'm not at all confident that SRS would fix all my gender problems. It might, it might not, people experience dysphoria in many different ways. Mainly I've been trying not to transition and its been killing me. When I relent and move slowly I'm fine, more or less. So I view SRS as another step along the way that will probably help and likely won't do any harm, and its it keeps me sane another year or two then its a great success. I'm trying to leave the "hardest treatment of the package" until last, precisely because it is the hardest, and if I find I don't need to do it then I've made a lucky escape. And if I do need to do it I can only hope its later when my children are grown up and I won't screw over their lives as well as mine.
I have been through SRS and it isn't easy. It pretty well takes about 5 or 6 months out of your life because of the surgery and the after surgery care. In addition, I know the only thing it really changed in my life was it prevented me from returning to the male role. I knew that was all it would do before surgery and I also knew from RLE that my life as a woman was far better than it was as a male. I was ready to put the old life behind me forever and move into the new.
Really, I can argue till I am blue in the face that RLE and transitioning in to the new role is the only thing that is going to bring you happiness but unless you believe me, you will continue to think the other things will make you happy. I assume you have the money to make it happen so it will. I will provide one warning and that is after SRS, be prepared to do all the work that should have been done before SRS that you haven't already done because I doubt that you will dodge the bullet.
QuoteYou're losing your job is very specific to you. I can't lose my job, but that doesn't really change the arguments for and against.
You ask for specifics so I gave you what happened in my life. It is fair you ask these questions of me and if I am to be honest in my arguments, I should provide a truthful answer.
In general, if a person still has dysphoria after SRS, any failure in life can cause a person to question their decision for surgery. Also just the fact that the dysphoria remained after surgery when they thought SRS would be the treatment that would cure them. NO, I am not a god and I thought exactly like you did years ago except I did understand the year living requirement and I didn't fight it. As you thought, I thought hormones would make me feel better but they didn't. I also thought the solution to my problems would be SRS until I reached that point in RLS where I understood RLE had brought me the comfort I was after and I hadn't had SRS yet. If I knew another way, I would be the first one to tell you, I know what RLE is like when you are first stating out. I know how hard it is to open that door for the first time and walk out appearing in a different gender. I will share every trick I know to make it easy on you but I know of no better way of curing you that RLE.
Quote from: Jean24 on August 14, 2015, 01:44:07 AM
That's exactly my point. SRS has almost nothing to do with presenting in public and not passing in public, so how does it make sense to use presenting in public as a requirement? At what point would someone say "Now that I have been passing/looking drag as hell for a while, I know for a fact that a vagina/penis is for me?"
Not only that but if someone is rejected, they have no idea what being accepted is, which makes going out and figuring out "what life will be like" completely unrepresentative of how things will be as an individual who functions as their desired gender role.
And I remember a few cases where people were glad to have undergone transition and transitioned back. One in particular was on Susan's a few years back and I recall that he described himself as "MTFTM." He went through the whole spectrum and back again, and didn't have any regrets.
Maybe it was the times I was in because we had no clue what caused us to be the way we were. As few as we were, we knew people had SRS and regretted their decision. The path I took and I still believe in is that every option should be examined before SRS and anything you do before SRS should be reversible or shouldn't restrict your return to your birth gender. In my case, I didn't figure I would miss my Adam's Apple. I gave the surgeon who cleaned up my nose instructions that the nose should work on a male or a female face, I never had much of a beard so I wouldn't miss that. Speech therapy was simple to forget. The makeup and clothes could be discarded. In short, up to the day I had SRS I could have returned to the male role with no real damage to my life.
Now your MTFTM most likely could no longer have normal sex. Maybe it wasn't important to him/her/him but without more information, I really couldn't say.
I can only tell you from the long view that had SRS not been possible for some reason I would be far happier living as a woman with a penis than as a male with a vagina.
Quote from: AnonyMs on August 14, 2015, 01:19:11 AM
I'd imagine you live in a country where its very easy to get 2 therapists to sign off, and if not there's plenty of others in the region that would. I have the impression that you're the kind of person who gets what they want.
Yes, I am used to getting my way. I think its the age and life experience gives me the confidence in my decisions, especially when there is so much research to support my choice. I'm alot older that I look haha...I also present myself as I look in my pic.
I'm sorry, I just can't comprehend this argument. To me doing a year RLE is a no brainer compared to GRS.
Quote from: stephaniec on August 14, 2015, 02:41:36 AM
I'm sorry, I just can't comprehend this argument. To me doing a year RLE is a no brainer compared to GRS.
Funnily enough I think exactly the opposite. To me doing GRS is a no brainer compared to a year of RLE.
There's probably no way of truly understanding the opposite view, just as cis-people can't be expected to understand being transgender. All we can ask for is some acceptance.
Quote from: warlockmaker on August 14, 2015, 02:36:05 AM
Yes, I am used to getting my way. I think its the age and life experience gives me the confidence in my decisions, especially when there is so much research to support my choice. I'm alot older that I look haha...I also present myself as I look in my pic.
I'm much the same. It's just a pity it takes so long to get there.
I know there are so many conflicting points of view on RLE and I love telling antecdotes. A friend explained to me that they have lied to themselves and to people that matter their whole lives by acting like a male. She feels that she needed to be true to herself and others who matter in her life and for her SRS was an absolutely necessary to be who she is. Living a RLE with her male genitals would be continuing to lie to herself and also to those that matter. She considered that the male genitals was a major componant in defining who she is. She explained that for some TGs the SRS was not a necessity but for her she did not want to live a lie anymore. She had been on HRT for 3 years and had her srs in Bangkok last April, and now lives there - she has zero regrets. She is at peace and radiates happiness.
Hi Dena, thanks for your reply yet again.
For all our words I don't think we're communicating, and I think I know why. You really don't understand the way I think, in much the same way as a cis-person doesn't understand a trans person. Kind of odd but I think its that.
I like understanding things, planning in detail, and completely controlling my environment to avoid risk. Its the way I live my life and its been very successful for me, although its not without some downsides (its safe to say I'm not normal). When it comes to gender its been an utter disaster. I have no idea where I'm going, and I learned long ago to stop expecting anything. I still research, plan and control, its part of me, but I've learned to accept whatever comes and to accept myself whoever I am. I'm just feeling my way step by step. In this I try to live in the moment.
For SRS I'd have hopes but no expectations. I'd not be overly disappointed if nothing changed, and it doesn't really matter to me. It would matter if it gave me dysphoria and I wanted my penis back, but I think the chance of that of close to zero. I'd still be mid-transition, and I'd still be trying not to transition, but that's a pragmatic choice. Worst case it would likely keep me busy for a year preparing, and that distraction from my gender issues makes it worthwhile even if nothing else happens. I really don't understand why SRS is such a big deal for everyone else.
Hormones did make me feel better for many years. It wasn't enough eventually and I had to increase from low dose to the full transitioning dose I've been on for a year now. Hopefully that will make be feel better for some more years, but I have no expectations either way.
Since I realized the extent of my problems years ago I've been rearranging my life to protect myself from all these problems I hear about from others (i.e. controlling my environment). I managed to create some problems for myself doing so because some of these problems don't exist where I am. Perhaps they don't exist because I unknowingly worked around them; I don't know. I'm now in a position where I can't lose my job, I have no money problems, and if I want to take 6 months off to recover from SRS I could easily.
Mod edit: ToS 15 Violation: Suggesting other members are not tolerant to others
Quote from: warlockmaker on August 14, 2015, 04:16:49 AM
I know there are so many conflicting points of view on RLE and I love telling antecdotes. A friend explained to me that they have lied to themselves and to people that matter their whole lives by acting like a male. She feels that she needed to be true to herself and others who matter in her life and for her SRS was an absolutely necessary to be who she is. Living a RLE with her male genitals would be continuing to lie to herself and also to those that matter. She considered that the male genitals was a major componant in defining who she is. She explained that for some TGs the SRS was not a necessity but for her she did not want to live a lie anymore. She had been on HRT for 3 years and had her srs in Bangkok last April, and now lives there - she has zero regrets. She is at peace and radiates happiness.
Hi warlockmaker, I'm not sure I properly understand what you're saying.
This friend of yours had no RLE, presented male and got SRS? It sounds like she started presenting female after immediately after SRS?
Sounds good to me.
:police:
OK this topic is starting to become polarized, there are many views and feelings about current methodologies, these are set to protect many folks.
I am happy for this discussion to be factually based and with a healthy debate ongoing. There are many members who have different views and experiences, they are all valuable in helping those that are confused and or query there selves, please be considerate of those.
However if the forum's and their members integrities are brought into dispute again we will have to shut this topic down.
Quote from: stephaniec on August 14, 2015, 02:41:36 AM
I'm sorry, I just can't comprehend this argument. To me doing a year RLE is a no brainer compared to GRS.
Nobody's saying you shouldn't do RLE if you think it will be helpful.
The topic is whether the medical community should
force RLE on all transgender people who want surgery whether it would be helpful or not.
If RLE is such a "no-brainer" why is there zero scientific evidence that it does any good? Why does the scientific evidence we do have all seem to indicate it has no effect on outcomes.
If I want to take away someone's rights - for example say "people with brown hair should have to act like they're Swedish for a year before they're allowed to purchase blonde hair dye. People who already have blonde hair don't need to do this," - is it sufficient for me to label it a no-brainer, or should I have to come up with some proof that this restriction is necessary?
sorry, I guess I'll never understand the argument. No matter how long and hard I think about it I always come to the same conclusion . I really don't see the big deal if your going to live as a woman anyway I just don't understand , unless there is no intention of living as an outwardly perceived woman than I can see why you wouldn't want to be forced to wear the clothes of that gender.
Quote from: stephaniec on August 14, 2015, 05:08:11 AM
sorry, I guess I'll never understand the argument. No matter how long and hard I think about it I always come to the same conclusion . I really don't see the big deal if your going to live as a woman anyway I just don't understand , unless there is no intention of living as an outwardly perceived woman than I can see why you wouldn't want to be forced to wear the clothes of that gender.
I don't think its really about understanding at the end of the day. Its more about believing in other people and having faith that they know what they are doing. Not necessarily me of course. Even if I'm completely nuts the others here sound pretty sensible.
I don't personally have a problem doing RLE prior to GRS. But that is because I expect to adopt a pretty vanilla, "standard" female presentation and role. I am also white, middle class, well educated, and have support from family and friends. Good for me. If I were of a less privileged role, or if I sought a non-binary or otherwise non-traditional end point to my transition, I would have very strong concerns about ever being approved unless I found just the right therapist. I would probably expect to have to fake a lot of "normal" feminine presentation to avoid problems.
One of the biggest problems with RLE is that it means someone else has to decide whether you are "trans enough" in your presentation to count as RLE. There is a long history of discrimination in this process. If it were just a matter of "present in your desired role," then fine, that should be relatively non-controversial.
But it is not, and this is not a minor issue, or something that can just be hand-waved away. There are many things that would work well in an ideal world, but which don't pan out in reality. Enforced RLE is one of these, IMO.
Quote from: suzifrommd on August 14, 2015, 04:44:30 AM
Nobody's saying you shouldn't do RLE if you think it will be helpful.
The topic is whether the medical community should force RLE on all transgender people who want surgery whether it would be helpful or not.
If RLE is such a "no-brainer" why is there zero scientific evidence that it does any good? Why does the scientific evidence we do have all seem to indicate it has no effect on outcomes.
If I want to take away someone's rights - for example say "people with brown hair should have to act like they're Swedish for a year before they're allowed to purchase blonde hair dye. People who already have blonde hair don't need to do this," - is it sufficient for me to label it a no-brainer, or should I have to come up with some proof that this restriction is necessary?
Exactly. For someone like myself who prefers androgynous clothing, doesn't use makeup and has non traditional interests such as metal working I would find getting past some gatekeepers in this country (NZ) to be approved for GRS just about impossible. I have lived full time for years on my own terms and I know bone deep that I'm not the gender I was assigned at birth so GRS should be a forgone conclusion should I want it.
As a former truck mechanic I was privileged to work alongside some highly skilled guys who were absolute inspired technicians when it came to machinery. I also worked alongside some guys who didn't have a clue and were total 'butchers' when it came to working on heavy vehicles. I don't see the medical profession as being any different from the trade of being a truck mechanic in terms of distribution of skills.
If during transition we have the misfortune to strike medical professionals who are barely worth the paper in the framed diplomas hanging on their office walls it can cause us considerable misery; - and in both my situation and my daughter's situation we've certainly had to suffer more than a few of those. On the other hand we have both been able to once in a while find medical professionals who were worth their salt and have been a big help to us.
As a DES child and an intersex person I don't have a great deal of incentive to trust the medical profession's ability to judge whether I'm expressing my true inner gender 'correctly' or not so that's why I say RLE is a crock.
Quote
For all our words I don't think we're communicating, and I think I know why. You really don't understand the way I think, in much the same way as a cis-person doesn't understand a trans person. Kind of odd but I think its that.
I understand exactly where you are coming from but I lacked the money, treatments alternatives and I was too honest to attempt what you are proposing. Had those three issues not been a problem, would have found myself attempting exactly what you are proposing. It was the lack of money and not any moral standard that gave me two years of RLE and I would have said yes to surgery at the required on year if I could have afforded it. Don't think I don't understand where you are coming from because I understand far to well. I would have had my own little set of reasons why the rules didn't apply to me and I would have been sure they were right. I may have been weaker than you because things like HRT didn't buy me much time before I wanted more change in my life.
My views are the result of hindsight and not foresight and it bothers me that people are delaying the treatment they need so badly because of fear of living the life they really seek. It is strange how we want to be a woman but we fear living the life of one. I still find it hard to understand the fear that I had but the fear no longer exist within me and it has been replace with being totally comfortable in my new life.
Quote from: Dena on August 14, 2015, 02:20:35 AM
The path I took and I still believe in is that every option should be examined before SRS and anything you do before SRS should be reversible or shouldn't restrict your return to your birth gender. In my case, I didn't figure I would miss my Adam's Apple. I gave the surgeon who cleaned up my nose instructions that the nose should work on a male or a female face, I never had much of a beard so I wouldn't miss that. Speech therapy was simple to forget. The makeup and clothes could be discarded. In short, up to the day I had SRS I could have returned to the male role with no real damage to my life.
SRS would not prevent returning to or continuing a male gender role, any more than being AFAB prevents being an FTM male. Since beginning a semi-private phase of my transition (i.e., mostly out at home and occasionally in public, HRT), I have largely been continuing my male gender role. I have not been using my birth genitals in any way that would be affected by SRS...
Quote
Now your MTFTM most likely could no longer have normal sex. Maybe it wasn't important to him/her/him but without more information, I really couldn't say.
I can only tell you from the long view that had SRS not been possible for some reason I would be far happier living as a woman with a penis than as a male with a vagina.
And that's just the thing, it's not for you or for a therapist or for any other care provider to say what is important to a trans person. While you might be happier as a woman with a penis, I would very strongly prefer to be a man without one, if it came to that. I've largely found my male gender existence to be tolerable, but have been very unhappy about my parts.
RLE enforces specific ideas about what it means to be trans, and undermines the person's right to self-determination. There is no way to prevent people from making wrong decisions, period. If it were known that RLE efficiently helped to prevent some of these, it might be a good idea, but we don't know that. Worse, we don't know how many people who do need SRS are prevented from getting it because of either the fear of RLE or discrimination / heterosexism by care providers. That is a huge problem, and "it worked for me" doesn't fix it.
Dena, I feel we are getting closer, but there's still a gap.
I have my reasons for not transitioning socially any further. I think they are good reasons, and I'm prepared to sacrifice my happiness for my family. I'm fully aware I may be mistaken and its just fear speaking, but I think its my decision and responsibility to choose how I live my life.
I'm not prepared to suffer and end up harming my family anyway, so I'll socially transition if things get bad again and I run out of any other options. It's possible I'll do this and everything will turn out just fine and then I'll regret not doing it all earlier. So be it.
If it wasn't for 2 reasons I'd have done it years ago. I'm pretty sure fear of social transition is not one of the reasons. Fear of these 2 reasons is though. I do fear social transition, but its nothing compared to the depression I had last year. That really scares me.
It's possible that I'd get SRS and shortly afterwards find I had to transition the rest of the way. I'm no worse off.
SRS is of interest to me because I'm already on HRT and there's nothing else I can do along the path to transition that's not going to out me. Last time I tried to stop completely it didn't work out very well.
I regard this issue as gatekeeping, and gatekeeping disturbs me immensely. I mentioned before I control my environment, well gatekeeping tries to take that away and I'm not accepting it. I'm sufficiently annoyed by it I feel the need to talk about it regardless of what I actually do. I'm not talking about RLE for HRT because I find its kind of boring, a bit of a non-issue (for me), and the sites TOS.
I truly don't understand why the order of these things matters to people. The moment I socially transition I'm doing the rest of it as soon as I can get through the surgeons queue. What does it matter if I do it now vs later? I don't have any issues that are going to cause me problems. There's no reason I can think of not to, so really, why not?
I see nothing immoral in getting SRS whatever way you need to. I find lying immoral in general, but not to protect yourself, and not in a coercive relationship (as you have with a doctor). But there's many ways of getting SRS and there's no need for it. Unless there's some other immorality you're thinking of?
I've discussed all this and more with my psychiatrist in the past. I'm quite sane apparently.
Ideally RLE should be about teaching the individual how to blend in and provide with the necessary skills to accomplish it. Unfortunately, for many people they end up (or begin) "with standing out" due to features or characteristics which are often beyond their control.
There were cases where schizophrenia was treated with hormones...
Concerning attitudes, imo its also a generational thing.
Older generations tend more to believe in authorities while younger generations question and have experienced that motives were far from honest.
Lets not forget that many really bad things have been commited pretending to having others best interest in their mind. History is full of examples.
Imo a principle of responsibility might help. In old times people used to know it was their fault if their motorcycle fell down because they didn't operate their kickstand correctly. After some time it became fashion to blame producers.
If valueing people regretting against people being hurt by gatekeeping imo there is much more hurt on the side of people being held back.
And sometimes people simply have to make the experience.
Sometimes people have to make an experience and not just thinking about how it might be.
:police:
Ok folks. Here is the deal. We have been flirting with the rules in this thread along with arguing back and forth for awhile. It's not our place to diagnosis people, but to help each other through our journey's. Thread Locked
Mariah
Quote
5. The posting of messages on the chat or forums which are of a threatening tone; intended solely to communicate sarcasm, contempt, or derision; are intended to belittle or ridicule a person or group; to disgust the viewer; contain obscene or pornographic materials; which are intended to titillate (http://www.answers.com/titillate); or which depicts/promotes illegal acts; will not be permitted.
9. If you disapprove of people who are Transgender, Gay, Lesbian, or Bisexual; or activities which cross gender boundaries; take your arguments to a more appropriate website.
10. Bashing or flaming of an individual or group is not acceptable behavior on this website and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
- Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
- Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more or less legitimate, deserving, or real than any others
- Posting any messages that engages in personal attacks and/or is actively or passively aggressive no matter the provocation.
15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand. Members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.