Does anyone else really hate the idea of forced RLE?

[Lady Smith]

The biggest support I got during my transition was from sensible GPs with their hearts in the right place.  I went full time as soon as I started HRT which was like entering a warzone.  My experiences during my first two years included being pelted with stones by a group of youths and later on the same year being raped.  The Police officers I spoke to after my rape laughed at me and weren't remotely interested in doing anything about it.  If RLE is forced on anyone making a transition this kind of thing is very likely to happen to them too.  Yes I was living full time on a completely voluntary basis, but then I was completely determined that I wasn't going to live a lie anymore.  Fortunately I happened to be a strong individual who wasn't going to let the b@stards grind her down.  Not everyone entering transition is likely to be a bloody minded woman of Irish descent like me and all forced RLE would do is make them miserable, even more dysphoric and likely to off themselves.

If anything being raped only served to increase my determination and set my feet on the path to becoming a social worker.  Social work is largely a women's club and studying to be a social worker in the company of other strong women did more for my self esteem than anything else I've ever done.  I also joined a women's writers group which helped to affirm than I was completely and un-apologetically a woman who had something to offer.  In a way I suppose this was my 'therapy' and it did me far more good than paying some gatekeeper therapist my hard earned money could have ever done.

[justpat]

   Please correct me if I am wrong. When WPATH was written we were considered to have a mental condition and now it has been proven to be a medical condition. Why can we not be treated like any other medical condition,and just treated with the appropriate therapy that will help us maintain the stability that we all desire.
In reality what is under our clothes is no ones business but ours and the person we are intimate with. I know m2f 's that are totally complete but still present male at work,and also f2m that bind still have their original bottoms and present male.What we choose to have done and how we choose to present should be up to us as responsible human beings to decide.
That being said my GCS date is Dec 8th by that time I will have 2.5 years RLE and 2 years HRT. GCS will be completed 3 months before my 66 birthday. I started late in life and I am glad that I did complete the RLE and The 2 years on hormones. That time was a definite learning experience. It enabled me to grow and mature as a full time woman, GCS is just whipped cream and a cherry on top of a wonderful life..   Patty
  I am also a DES baby who knew early on that they were different, and it just got progressively worse as I aged.

[warlockmaker]

Maybe we should ask if any of us that have done RLE have decided not to transition, because of this experience? I am hopefully not being condesending but could it be that those who had RLE before surgery feel that they have "paid their dues" under the rules and now feel that everyone must take this route, no shortcuts etc.. Research has shown us that we must change the RLE requirements, if we dont change and move forward then we will stay in the dark ages

[Dena]

Maybe we should ask if any of us that have done RLE have decided not to transition, because of this experience? I am hopefully not being condesending but could it be that those who had RLE before surgery feel that they have "paid their dues" under the rules and now feel that everyone must take this route, no shortcuts etc.. Research has shown us that we must change the RLE requirements, if we dont change and move forward then we will stay in the dark ages

With me it has nothing to do with others paying their dues, my goal is to help others make the transition as simple and painless as possible and if you ever find a post where I am clearly not doing that, call me on it. I had two years of RLE and I wasn't ready for surgery until near the end of the second year. I know with a doubt that I would have had adjustment problems post surgical without that second year. There is something that happens in RLE where you lose the dysphoria and in my case, I became a woman in body and spirit. I don't think a person is really ready to decide if surgery is right for them until they reach that point. Granted some people may reach that point faster than me and some slower so one years is an artificial limit, but I don't really have a good way to judge the change in mindset.

[Jean24]

Totally agree Emily!

There is a medical protocol to transitioning. It is known about the moment you get on this path. If you disagree with it fine, don't transition. If you want things to change become a political lobbyist and make change happen. Most all of us have done RLE and learned a lot which led to better, healthier and more stable transitions. Fighting the system in the incorrect way will only make things worse for us. Skirting the requirements can have the same effect. If you want the current protocol and system to change then engage, don't complain. Only through doing it the right way will our community earn the right to proceed as we feel we need to.

Right? Because that belief definitely doesn't justify the deaths of those who have been forced into RLE in heavily transphobic areas and subsequently murdered. At least they died while being coerced into doing something that was unsafe and that they didn't feel that they were ready for. Sounds kinda like rape and murder but it's okay because it's not as overtly wrong. I mean come on, they should have used the money that they probably didn't have to become lobbyists who have such a great record when it comes to fixing problems and not creating them.

[AnonyMs]

Lets tackle this from another angle. How can you make an informed decision about surgery if you don't know what life will be like after surgery. Before RLE, I was totally unprepared to even put on a proper face much less face the public in a dress. RLE forced me to learn how to produce a presentable female image that I was comfortable with in public. It gave me enough time in therapy that my mind was also ready for life as a woman. After surgery, I returned to therapy for a free of charge follow up but as I did all the required work before surgery, the follow up really wasn't required.

I'm all for looking at another angle otherwise we're all going to keep repeating the same arguments and get nowhere.

Say I want SRS but keep living as male. It's not ideal, but a pragmatic solution to my problems. I guess you could say I've been doing RLE all my life, so I pass the RLE requirements. I don't think that argument would go down to well with many people. but I am transgender and sane, so why not?

Anyone who finds these standards harsh may not fully understand that with proper treatment SRS is a pretty minor part of package. Without proper treatment before SRS, you could face some real mental problems after surgery.

I don't have your long experience, but I do agree with you that its a minor part. I don't understand why you'd have any new problems after surgery though. If you're transgender how could SRS cause you problems?


I wish some non-binary people would jump in and say something as I think they could really contribute here. I remember lots of that when I first joined a year ago.

[AnonyMs]

I'm not afraid to admit that everyone else is wrong.

Ok, now I get it. Good luck in the future.

Yes, exactly, if only everyone said that and left me alone instead of trying to tell me what to do. Thanks.

[Jean24]

Lets tackle this from another angle. How can you make an informed decision about surgery if you don't know what life will be like after surgery. Before RLE, I was totally unprepared to even put on a proper face much less face the public in a dress. RLE forced me to learn how to produce a presentable female image that I was comfortable with in public. It gave me enough time in therapy that my mind was also ready for life as a woman. After surgery, I returned to therapy for a free of charge follow up but as I did all the required work before surgery, the follow up really wasn't required.

Anyone who finds these standards harsh may not fully understand that with proper treatment SRS is a pretty minor part of package. Without proper treatment before SRS, you could face some real mental problems after surgery.

Well, I don't understand.

How does being forced to dress as someone who obviously doesn't pass get a person ready to be someone who does pass?

What part of being dressed in public with clothes of your desired gender most prepares someone to have their genitals rearranged?

[AnonyMs]

In the spirit of trying different angles here's an interesting article.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/08/psychology-group-bans-members-from-harsh-national-security-interrogations/

It about the American Psychological Association banning members from being involved in torture. The comments to the article are far more interesting than the article itself, but it provides the necessary context to understand them.

There seems to be a lot of faith in the "system", and I've no idea why. Its made up or people, and people are as everywhere good and bad. It helps to understand that when you place you life in their hands.

[Lady Smith]

I wish some non-binary people would jump in and say something as I think they could really contribute here. I remember lots of that when I first joined a year ago.

I'm intersex and non-binary.  When I talk about myself in femme terms I mean 'not male' which is a bad habit I know but there's no real word in English I truly like to describe my identity.  My daughter is intersex and identifies as being outside of the binary paradigm too.  She has partial internal female anatomy without any opening to the outside of her body.  She told me last night that she was very pleased that my ex and I as her parents wouldn't let doctors mess with her when she was a child.  In my daughter's case her own natural testosterone levels were toxic for her and it still angers me that she had to play the gatekeeper game and pretend to be transgender to get the HRT she needed.

When I got my tattoo (which I carefully designed myself and thought hard about) I didn't have to go to a therapist first.  Same when I got my ears pierced.  I strongly dislike (hate?) the medicalisation of gender and don't get me started on what doctors did to kids like me to remedy the 'social emergency' that the act of simply being born sparked off.

By the way Dena you don't have to worry, you are very much a kind and loving honorary 'Mum' to all of us and this forum would be a sadder place without you.  I do agree with you that therapy is valuable, - I'm having therapy sessions myself at the moment, - but what I disagree with is the mandating of therapy as a requirement before and during transition.  Informed consent should be sufficient for any medical procedure and while therapy or counselling might be recommended it should remain just that a recommendation.

[Dena]

Well, I don't understand.

How does being forced to dress as someone who obviously doesn't pass get a person ready to be someone who does pass?

What part of being dressed in public with clothes of your desired gender most prepares someone to have their genitals rearranged?

SRS will not make you pass any better than you would before surgery. It's far better to know how you will be accepted by society before you make the decision for surgery instead of after when the surgery can't be reversed. I never said you had  to pass before you had surgery, just that you know what life will be like. I have seen a couple of threads on the board in the last month were people have regretted their decision and possibly more time might have avoided the mistake.

[Dena]

Say I want SRS but keep living as male. It's not ideal, but a pragmatic solution to my problems. I guess you could say I've been doing RLE all my life, so I pass the RLE requirements. I don't think that argument would go down to well with many people. but I am transgender and sane, so why not?

How do you know you are transgender without RLE? If you are transgender, RLE will provide the relief from dysphoria, SRS will not provide relief from dysphoria.

I don't have your long experience, but I do agree with you that its a minor part. I don't understand why you'd have any new problems after surgery though. If you're transgender how could SRS cause you problems?

In my case, I returned to work to soon after surgery and lost my job as the result of it. I have no reason to believe that events would have played out differently if I had my surgery a year earlier before I fully accepted myself as a woman. In real life, I cussed and beat the daylights out of pillow for a couple of day but I never regretted or blamed my surgery,
In the alternate universe, as I was not yet secure with my self image, doubt would have been in my mind as to if the surgery was right for me and I would have had the doubt combined with the anger over the loss of my job. Not a healthy combination.


Mod Edit- Telling someone else how to transition is against TOS 10.

[Mariah]

 
Ok folks, Just a friendly reminder. Lets please keep it civil. Thanks
Mariah

[Dena]

By the way Dena you don't have to worry, you are very much a kind and loving honorary 'Mum' to all of us and this forum would be a sadder place without you.  I do agree with you that therapy is valuable, - I'm having therapy sessions myself at the moment, - but what I disagree with is the mandating of therapy as a requirement before and during transition.  Informed consent should be sufficient for any medical procedure and while therapy or counselling might be recommended it should remain just that a recommendation.

I don't know. I have another liberal web site I have argued politics on and fought pretty hard over there. When I came over here, I vowed no politics on this web site because there are more important things to do over here. After I am done with this thread or after the mods shut it down, my image might be a bit soiled.

Really what any therapy should do is decide if you are informed and able to make the decision. In the end, you and only you are responsible for the decision if it is wrong. The problem is this is one medical condition where it is critical that the patient knows as much as or more that the doctors providing the treatment which is pretty much the definition of informed consent.

[warlockmaker]

The passionate responses, even amongst our community, clearly demonstrate that there is a divergence of opinions. Bothe sides feel quite strongly that their view is right and I can see that the discussion is deterioating into some uncivil comments. I am ever so lucky to live in a country that does not require RLE but does require 2 therapist to sign off.

[AnonyMs]

How do you know you are transgender without RLE? If you are transgender, RLE will provide the relief from dysphoria, SRS will not provide relief from dysphoria. In my case, I returned to work to soon after surgery and lost my job as the result of it. I have no reason to believe that events would have played out differently if I had my surgery a year earlier before I fully accepted myself as a woman. In real life, I cussed and beat the daylights out of pillow for a couple of day but I never regretted or blamed my surgery,
In the alternate universe, as I was not yet secure with my self image, doubt would have been in my mind as to if the surgery was right for me and I would have had the doubt combined with the anger over the loss of my job. Not a healthy combination.

Hi Dena,

thanks for replying.

I could say that I know I'm transgender because its a very inclusive term and after being on HRT for so many years I know I'm not cis-normal. But the truth is that I don't care if I'm transgender or not. I long ago gave up trying to understand it, or fit it, and learned to just accept myself for whatever I am. For what its worth my psych thinks I'm transgender.

I'm not at all confident that SRS would fix all my gender problems. It might, it might not, people experience dysphoria in many different ways. Mainly I've been trying not to transition and its been killing me. When I relent and move slowly I'm fine, more or less. So I view SRS as another step along the way that will probably help and likely won't do any harm, and if it keeps me sane another year or two then its a great success. I'm trying to leave the "hardest treatment of the package" until last, precisely because it is the hardest, and if I find I don't need to do it then I've made a lucky escape. And if I do need to do it I can only hope its later when my children are grown up and I won't screw over their lives as well as mine.

You're losing your job is very specific to you. I can't lose my job, but that doesn't really change the arguments for and against.

[AnonyMs]

The passionate responses, even amongst our community, clearly demonstrate that there is a divergence of opinions. Bothe sides feel quite strongly that their view is right and I can see that the discussion is deterioating into some uncivil comments. I am ever so lucky to live in a country that does not require RLE but does require 2 therapist to sign off.

I'd imagine you live in a country where its very easy to get 2 therapists to sign off, and if not there's plenty of others in the region that would. I have the impression that you're the kind of person who gets what they want.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Because im a bit different and i know quite a few will very strongly disagree with me and allso hate my guts and many wont wont to have any thing to do with me as i found out .

Some years ago i said that those who were ment to help those who needed it would not unless you jumped through a lot of hoop,s so what ever name you give to those people GP,s Psychs or who ever wont to enforce on you thier will and tell you how you are to live your life , what a lot of utter bull->-bleeped-<- , do they have that right  no bloody way ....so we have wpath and the APA now when i heard what they said they were going to do to help trans people i said to others they will change thier wording and a few miner details yet wont help you any more than before  so what has changed total nothing , they lied,

so do other people have to go through the same bull->-bleeped-<- to have surgerys say for cancer broken bones or blood transfussion or any life threating issue and are they treated different , ....Well no of cause not and why  well lets see you are 1/2 dead and cant talk and have no control of your body  so do they wait till you can talk after you wake up , if you do.... oh ...sorry mate .....a bit late . you answer that .

so we who ..NEED ...surgerys why do we get treated different form others ....WELL.....

I by past all of that stuff and paid my own way and went over seas and had what i needed  and had a lovely time . those here in New Zealand that i saw GP Psych and Endo did not ask a ? or tell me what i should or not do ,,,I told them what i needed and that was done and when i needed meds and surgerys at my request .

So this is was the difference okay im an intersexed female and just maybe things could have been different for myself yet they wornt , I never dressed in front of them in my female clothes and had no need and what difference would it make ...none...im a person not some outer space being and i was not treated like one ,  every one went out of thier way to help in any way i needed and total strangers as well ,

some of the surgerys are similar to trans people though yet not so great as to not be of any concern . did i have mental issues no or was i unstable no and i never had dysphoria, I know some surgerys are very different im just saying i am just trying to show there are some likeness in some details .

i know some intersexed people have been treated with contempt and abused and rejected and are those concerns being addressed not in every respect ,

Who are the best people to show the way and give accounts of what we need and not be damn well told we dont know what we are talking about , will wpath change doubt it  because money is involved thats one main reason 2 nd is these GP,s Drs and who ever dont wont to listen  , so with that in mind we are rejected and told they know better , well you know my word s .......UTTER ....BULL->-bleeped-<-.....

I belive there are some who will help us , we just have to find them . I did over here and in Thailand .

...noeleena...

[Jean24]

SRS will not make you pass any better than you would before surgery. It's far better to know how you will be accepted by society before you make the decision for surgery instead of after when the surgery can't be reversed. I never said you had  to pass before you had surgery, just that you know what life will be like. I have seen a couple of threads on the board in the last month were people have regretted their decision and possibly more time might have avoided the mistake.

That's exactly my point. SRS has almost nothing to do with presenting in public and not passing in public, so how does it make sense to use presenting in public as a requirement? At what point would someone say "Now that I have been passing/looking drag as hell for a while, I know for a fact that a vagina/penis is for me?"

Not only that but if someone is rejected, they have no idea what being accepted is, which makes going out and figuring out "what life will be like" completely unrepresentative of how things will be as an individual who functions as their desired gender role.

And I remember a few cases where people were glad to have undergone transition and transitioned back. One in particular was on Susan's a few years back and I recall that he described himself as "MTFTM." He went through the whole spectrum and back again, and didn't have any regrets.

[Jean24]

The passionate responses, even amongst our community, clearly demonstrate that there is a divergence of opinions. Bothe sides feel quite strongly that their view is right and I can see that the discussion is deterioating into some uncivil comments. I am ever so lucky to live in a country that does not require RLE but does require 2 therapist to sign off.

Which country is that?