So there's lots of chat about various voice surgeries available, but little talk about voice therapy. Is voice therapy something that we shy away from for a reason? I'd love to be able to remedy my voice issues (which give me away bigtime) through voice coaching or something less intrusive than vocal cord surgery, but if it's largely unsuccessful or stressful on the voice, then perhaps surgery is the way to go.
Thoughts? Anyone tried voice therapy of vocal coaching with great results?
(I guess worst case scenario it doesn't work but it helps me with my speech patterns rather than pitch, and I use surgery at a later date to remedy the pitch on a permanent basis.)
Quote from: StartingOver on August 21, 2015, 05:36:58 AM
So there's lots of chat about various voice surgeries available, but little talk about voice therapy. Is voice therapy something that we shy away from for a reason? I'd love to be able to remedy my voice issues (which give me away bigtime) through voice coaching or something less intrusive than vocal cord surgery, but if it's largely unsuccessful or stressful on the voice, then perhaps surgery is the way to go.
Thoughts? Anyone tried voice therapy of vocal coaching with great results?
(I guess worst case scenario it doesn't work but it helps me with my speech patterns rather than pitch, and I use surgery at a later date to remedy the pitch on a permanent basis.)
It isn't hard. Watch a couple of YouTube videos on how and practice a lot. I don't really think vocal surgery is worth the rrst
Voice training for me was hard.
My reasons for surgery:
I could raise the pitch but not get a passable voice, no matter how I tried.
I was also afraid of damaging my vocal folds. Improperly done training is proven to do that.
I also did not want to be able to fall back into my male voice. Why? For one it can happen by accident. I'm a mom. I have kids. They get into stuff. I might see them in danger and have to call out to them. Secondly, there is the stereotypical media image of a "tr***y" where she relaxes her voice and the male voice comes booming out. I don't want that. I'm pleased to say that now I couldn't sound male now even if I tried.
Then there is not just talking. It's laughing, coughing, sneezing, clearing your throat, screaming, sighing, expressing disgust etc.
Also, think of what happens when you're in bed with a sexual partner. I want to be noisy during sex, and I don't want to sound like a man. I have men interested in me and maybe sometime I will end up back in a committed relationship once my divorce is final and I've completed SRS. I want him to see me as a woman, full stop. He will know I'm trans (I believe in full disclosure) but I am a woman. I want to sound like one in bed. One woman here said she was clocked in her sleep due to her voice. I do not want that.
Training can get expensive. Yes, there are YouTube videos but I think some of them are ineffective and can damage your vocal folds. FYFV by Andrea James and Calpernia Addams is the only one I found to make sense. A speech language pathologist for me would cost $150 per session. Once per week for God alone knows how long. Then there is time I have to take to attend the sessions. For that money I could put it toward surgery. It cost me about $15k to go to Seoul and get it done but I paid for upgraded (prestige class) tickets and my mom went with me. You can do it for less. Dr Haben in NY is another option, as he charges less and surgery with him doesn't involve international travel if you're in the U.S.
My speech patterns were feminine with a male pitch. In fact my brain operates much like a natal female. I blame this on my naturally lower testosterone levels plus I'm quite possibly intersex or a DES child. My voice did not deepen until my late teens, in fact. So all I really needed was a pitch increase and a slight tweaking of the timbre by getting rid of the male undertones. That has worked very well for me.
So all of this is why I chose surgery.
Now, that's not to say training isn't viable. It works for many trans women but it is something you must commit too wholeheartedly. But to say voice surgery isn't worth it isn't really true. My surgically corrected voice has done wonders for my passability and by extension my confidence. I have zero issues going out in public and I can be the loud, bubbly person I always was.
And I've not seen anyone who had surgery say it was not worth it to them, unless their voice did not change much.
Good thoughts - thanks.
I think I'm gonna try a few sessions of vocal training with a legit, licensed, and experienced speech therapist (and not a drama teacher or some of the others who purport to offer such services). No progress and it'll be time for a piggy bank with "Seoul" written on the side. A big piggy bank :(
I've heard very little criticism of Yeson and his costs are reasonable. And if I can drag my ass to Bangkok for Chettawut, I think a quick jaunt to see Yeson should be like a rather nice vacation in comparison.
Another thing to add to my growing list of trans-related needs.
I think that is a good move. There is also Dr Haben in NY. He charges less, travel cost is less and his results are good too. He also offers some other procedures like a CTA and trach shave.
Using a professional SLP is good because you have less chance of damaging your vocal folds with improper training. There are a few here who have had surgery and had no end of problems because of vocal abuse from improper training. But there are others who have had remarkable results thanks to training in concert (no pun intended) with vocal surgery. Unless you're naturally blessed with feminine prosody and resonance like I am, you will need some training post op to get a decently passable voice. And I'm going to see a SLP just to get an evaluation and see if there is anything I need to do.
I did both therapy and surgery and I would recommend therapy first. I did extensive therapy 35 years ago and with what I knew, I did a review of my voice now. I discovered all these years my voice never really worked because it was far to low to produce a feminine pitch. When I contacted Dr Haben, I knew what he could provide and what I needed before I stepped into his office. After his review, he agreed with what I knew and though my voice is still healing, I think he may have provide a bit more pitch and far more range than I expected out of the surgery.
As surgical voice is 50% surgery and 50% therapy and therapy before surgery will still apply to the post surgical voice. If nothing else therapy will make you an informed consumer when you decide on surgery. If your voice is high enough, therapy will put you into the female range and surgery will not be required.
I think people are just more likely to *post* about surgery, for whatever reason.
I did voice therapy on my own - basically, I recorded myself over and over again and practiced for probably hundreds of hours - and my voice passes consistently now. (In fact, early on, voice was sometimes what tipped people over into gendering me correctly.) I can scream/sneeze/cough in a feminine range, can sing albeit without much power, and am gendered female 100% of the time on the phone. So I'd say it worked.
I did practice inflection and intonation far more than pitch, and was fortunate enough to have started as a light tenor. Erasing the male chest resonance and practicing enough to hold the pitch at sort of a medium to low alto, which is comfortably within my natural range, has been all the work I needed to do in terms of voice range versus manner of speaking (but it was still a lot of work!).
I did therapy. I had 14 sessions at $140 each. My voice passed fine until a trachea shave, then it went lower. It's now 15 months post trachea shave and its just now coming back. But, I pass when I think about it. I'll be good to go in a couple more months.
It is a lot of work. It won't work for everyone. But it is a good place to start. I learned more than just pitch. I learned phrasing, intonation, singing, coughing and pronunciation.
Overall, excellent.
Hugs,
Jen
I am going to try out voice therapy with UCSF. I have done a fair amount on my own as well. In my case insurance is going to cover it, which is surprising, so the risk is low to try it out. But I understand why it is a hard sell. It's expensive if you pay out of pocket and the results are unknown if they are better than doing it on your own. I am thinking about doing yeson as well, but my thoughts are that some voice therapy would be helpful if I do yeson later.
Quote from: Dena on August 21, 2015, 09:42:19 AM
As surgical voice is 50% surgery and 50% therapy and therapy before surgery will still apply to the post surgical voice. If nothing else therapy will make you an informed consumer when you decide on surgery. If your voice is high enough, therapy will put you into the female range and surgery will not be required.
I think this is correct. Pitch raising is done by the surgery. Everything else is pretty much training or natural ability.
Therapy did nothing for me. I almost get the sense that they were trying to lower my confidence in my voice so I'd keep coming to them.
I learned what I needed from internet videos (particularly candiFLA). In the end I didn't need surgery.
I've heard tell that some people's voices are so deep, that no amount of therapy will help.
I think surgery is a more popular topic simply because there have been advancements in technique that have proven to be much more effective than what was available in the past. People are always more curious about new developments, and those who have undergone the procedures have been more than generous to spread word to the community about their experiences. As has been mentioned, the two are rarely mutually exclusive, and even in the surgery threads you will find talk about vocal therapy and exercises.
Voice therapy is wonderful, and should not be overlooked by any means, but the information has been out there for a much longer time which is probably the reason you don't see as many new topics about it. It has nothing to do with its effectiveness.
Personally, the approach I've taken is to study with a female voice coach and take singing lessons for about two years. I have made great progress, but am electing to have surgery in the fall because I believe it will get me just a little bit closer to the voice I'm looking for, and because I believe it will require less effort on my part when all is said and done. (no pun intended)
People say that hormones do nothing to your voice but I think that is incorrect. I know I gained pitch once I started HRT. It could be that going out in public forces me higher but either way, my pitch went up.
I think hormones do very little - maybe adding some softness. Antihormones, particularly Spironolactone, can have a dehydrating effect and reduce vocal fold mass and thus make the voice lighter and a bit higher in pitch, but its not really a permanent effect unless one takes that drug long term.
Almost 2 years ago, there was almost nothing written here about voice surgery - in fact, the Topic of the dubforum did not even include "voice surgery". It was 99% about voice therapy and internet voice training solutions. Basically it started when Jennygirl and a couple of others went to Yeson for voice surgery and found out that apparently now there is a reliable way to feminize the voice through surgery - before that, the general opinion was that voice surgery is not worth it at all, can destroy a voice, will only lead to hoarse voices or too high voices... so there was a bit of a run that started on voice surgeries, given that this option now seemed a viable one and then posts multiplied, lots of people shared their own experiences with surgeries to show that it really is an option now. The forum topic was changed and then people discovered alternatives to Yeson and posted about those....
You are right that the posts about voice training are kind of in the minority at present, but I think no one minds it if one asks about techniques or therapists who do good work in that field. For the vast majority, this is still the primary and only solution. Also those who did surgery - almost all of them did voice therapy before an/or after surgery as well. Surgery is for most more like a "supportive surgery" that makes the things done in voice therapy easier.
I think most or all posts in the "does my voice pass" threads are non-surgical changed voices.
Dr Haben has been doing voice surgeries for 10 years and I am not sure how long Dr Kim has been in the business. Others also preform the surgery but I am not aware of the details. The voice surgery most common today originally involved suturing the cords together without causing them to fuse. Failure of the suture would cause the voice to drop resulting in a bad name for the surgery. Improvements over the years have eliminate this other problems and I suspect word of mouth has been selling this surgery up to now. I agree that Jenny has been a great source of information and has help not only Dr Kim but other doctors as well by show what the state of the art surgery can do.
The thing to remember is that jenny did a good deal of work refining the voice she has and it wasn't surgery alone that produced that voice.
Quote from: StartingOver on August 21, 2015, 05:36:58 AM
So there's lots of chat about various voice surgeries available, but little talk about voice therapy.
I hear you. I REALLY hear you.
What about many of us who cannot afford expensive VFS surgery?
Since the first hugely-followed thread about Yeson came out, there have been others about Dr. Haben and so on. It seems voice therapy-related helpful threads have become an extinct species.
Also it seems FFS is taking over as well. So now it seems people are getting "quick passability" by means of spending AT LEAST 40K US on both FFS and VHS. And that's just the basics. Others also spend on body-related surgery (breasts, hips, stomach, fat redistribution, you name it, the sky is the limit, kids today should be al over studying to become plastic surgeons lol).
I am all for surgery to help one finally achieve the confidence one needs to stop being nervous and self-conscious in public as a woman. I'd do it myself if I could pay for it. But then again, what about the ones like me who can't afford the surgeries?
If I ever become successful at speaking 100% convincingly female, I SWEAR I will start a thread on here to help people who can't afford surgery, improve their voices. It's long overdue.
Cheers
Bibi B.
Quote from: bibilinda on August 25, 2015, 10:28:41 PM
I hear you. I REALLY hear you.
What about many of us who cannot afford expensive VFS surgery?
Since the first hugely-followed thread about Yeson came out, there have been others about Dr. Haben and so on. It seems voice therapy-related helpful threads have become an extinct species.
Also it seems FFS is taking over as well. So now it seems people are getting "quick passability" by means of spending AT LEAST 40K US on both FFS and VHS. And that's just the basics. Others also spend on body-related surgery (breasts, hips, stomach, fat redistribution, you name it, the sky is the limit, kids today should be al over studying to become plastic surgeons lol).
I am all for surgery to help one finally achieve the confidence one needs to stop being nervous and self-conscious in public as a woman. I'd do it myself if I could pay for it. But then again, what about the ones like me who can't afford the surgeries?
If I ever become successful at speaking 100% convincingly female, I SWEAR I will start a thread on here to help people wh can't afford surgery, improve their voices. It's long overdue.
Cheers
Bibi B.
Well yeah that's all well and good. I wish more people would start threads on voice training. There is room for everyone.
I don't think surgery is that expensive though. Certainly cheaper than FFS and cheaper than SRS. Might be around the same price as an orchi in some cases, actually.
As for FFS, you can pass and look good without it. I can't, which is why I'm going to get it. I mean I had one woman here who told me I look like Morgan Freeman for crying out loud, and then proceeded to taunt me in PM. So yeah, I'm a bit hung up on it. Hormones may be doing something, but I don't think it is enough for me to be passable to the degree that I want. I want to be happy.
I have a very flexible voice but needed guidance. So I went on this Forum to look for a speech therapist. I tried two of them Andrea James, USA, but she was in the USA and time zones became an issue. Then I found an incredible speech therapist in Australia, Sheryl Mailing. She has been fantastic and I have had 12 sessions with her. Try the threrapy sessions first.
First I want to say - its in my opinion pretty much an abomination that treatment for transsexuality is regarded as a private matter. The medical officials still seem to think that we make a lifestlye choice and decide to live as the opposite gender and then want the surgeries and all that to get to that goal. When in reality for a lot of us, it is not a choice, it is a matter of doing this (and "passing") or suffering severe depression and suicidal thoughts or eventually actions. So in my opinion, even the coverage of GRS, electrolysis, hormones and psychotherapy by health insurance as it is happening in some of the Euro countries does not go far enough. Some people get VFS covered, I even know some who got FFS covered, and I think this is the way to go - it should be like that everywhere just as with any other reconstructive surgery for other medical conditions.
But given the situation, I definitely think it is possible to live without VFS and FFS. When I transitioned 17 years ago, both of these were almost no option - FFS was only done by Dr O and very expensive, VFS was not very reliable at all. So only the most desparate took those steps. And the other ones lived on as well. Nowadays these options exist and are becoming more affordable and widespread, so more people use it, but I doubt people look and sound worse pre-transition than in the 1990ies ;)
What might be a consideration though for the forum mods is, if there should be two subforums about voice surgery and voice therapy, but personally I think this is not needed. The voice therapy people just have to post more and the voice surgery threads will probably subside a bit once the buzz is over. It already does not make sense to start another Yeson experience thread because there are already all those experiences out there, same will happen to the other surgeons as well - eventually I believe there may be only a few threads showing ongoing experiences and development of the voices of those who had been there. After all, still >90% will do voice therapy only and almost 100% will do voice therapy at some point (surgery or no surgery), so that topic definitely is not dead!
WARNING: I'm going to be brutally honest here about some things.
The problem I have is that some think that surgery is a waste of time. I would heartily disagree since I had the surgery and the results have completely transformed my life. For the first time I have close to no worries being outed because of my voice and even if I'm outed by my appearance, my voice will make the person making that assessment based on my appearance change their minds or at least think twice. Yes, the voice is absolutely that powerful, and a voice which cannot slip back into a male sounding one is invaluable. I don't even have to think about it and the ability to simply speak spontaneously is invaluable.
You hear some trans women who you can tell are consciously thinking about their voice when they talk. There is one on TV (not Caitlyn Jenner) who looks absolutely gorgeous but if you heard her on the phone, you would probably think twice about how to gender her. Not only that, the way she speaks sounds slow and deliberate like she has to think about it. I mean some people will be able to get to a point where they don't have to think or prepare so that their voice will pass when they open their mouth, but a lot won't. And I feel that tends to restrict me in how I live my life. I lead meetings, have meetings with vendors and associates, sometimes walk around the floor at work talking to various people. It's a high stress environment especially when we have big news to cover and I'm fighting off 10 fires at once. I need to be spontaneous. I also have kids and they get into stuff. If I call out to them, I don't want to sound like a guy by accident.
There is also the problem whereby some trans women assess their voices as passable when in reality they sound totally masculine. This is not to insult anyone but it is a much needed dose of reality. Someone told me that her voice sounds "gender neutral" at best yet when I heard it, it sounded unambiguously male. Another friend of mine is a much older trans woman and a college professor. When I was talking to her before well I was thinking about the surgery I asked her how she manages to survive with her voice like that. She said that her voice sounds "good enough" and people gender her female in person. She also said that on the phone she doesn't care about being called "sir" because nobody sees her. Well, I most certainly do! I feel like I'm not being taken seriously at all.
I do get that not everyone can have or even wants surgery. THAT IS TOTALLY FINE. But to dismiss it as useless is totally off base. I get that some people can train their voices. I tried. The lower tones were there and annoying me. I couldn't train them out no matter how I tried. The surgery got rid of them.
But training may work for you. It's free. What have you got to lose?
I also think the most valuable thread in this forum is the "does my voice pass" thread. You need honest feedback. Even listening to yourself you need to record yourself and listen. What comes out of your mouth is completely different from what is in your head.
So, TL; DR - surgery is not useless, training is good but get HONEST feedback.
Quote from: iKate on August 25, 2015, 10:37:47 PM
Well yeah that's all well and good. I wish more people would start threads on voice training. There is room for everyone.
I don't think surgery is that expensive though. Certainly cheaper than FFS and cheaper than SRS. Might be around the same price as an orchi in some cases, actually.
As for FFS, you can pass and look good without it. I can't, which is why I'm going to get it. I mean I had one woman here who told me I look like Morgan Freeman for crying out loud, and then proceeded to taunt me in PM. So yeah, I'm a bit hung up on it. Hormones may be doing something, but I don't think it is enough for me to be passable to the degree that I want. I want to be happy.
If I had the financial means for full FFS AND VFS I would be all over it like a fat dude on a cheeseburger lol (well I am not a fat dude, yet I can never say no to a cheeseburger gosh I am getting so hungry now).
Also, and I don't like sugarcoating, (ikate) I've seen profile pics of you on here from some time ago and the most recent one you just took off and I am amazed at the changes I've seen, and to me you pass even without makeup, you are a natural. You may be lucky to be intersexed or something, which I think I am not. I am the one who really needs FFS AND VHS but I can't afford either at the moment. And if I had any money available, I'd go for type three forehead recontouring in a heartbit because I totally hate having to wear bangs to conceal those two bumps over my eyebrows. But that's neither here nor there, we're discussing voice therapy and surgery now.
I am discovering some interesting stuff through my daily voice practice. I may start a thread about it soon. But sadly it is kind of complicated because in order to get it, people should know at least the very basics of voice (musical note and octave), which isn't really complicated at all. All people need is a chromatic tuner which shows both the musical note and octave. On my smart phone I use a free application named Pitchlab lite. I suppose this application is available on any mobile system platform. It is a great application, the only "but" it has is that, as usual for free applications, it kind of drains the battery a bit fast.
When one discovers FOR REAL what voice type one is (bass, bass-baritone, baritone, baritone-tenor, tenor, high tenor, countertenor), it makes A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE in what one CAN REALLY EXPECT from both voice therapy and voice surgery.
I've had the privilege of speaking with a few trans women, with different voice types and different ages. And I've noticed this: the MTF women who have a voice break in the countertenor register, ALWAYS are the ones who turn out with GREAT super-passable voices, specially if they started training them during puberty, whether they were on HRT or not.
Since most cis males are born as baritones, and can be expected to break on E4 (secondo passaggio), according to my new discoveries and real-life analysis from my own voice practice and listening to the voice of other trans women as well as cis women like my sister, cosmetologist, hairstylist, etc, they (baritones) may expect to have a NATURAL-AUTHENTIC-SOUNDING fem voice which average is an octave lower (E3). This is FIVE semitones lower than the so-called "female average pitch", an A3. Interestingly, I think the average increase in pitch (anybody who has actually consulted a voice surgeon correct me if I'm wrong on this, please) any of the current voice doctors offers today is around that: five semitones. Which is GREAT for a baritone, but excessive for a tenor, for example. So it sounds like the current doctors are catering to the majority of MTF population, that is, those born baritones.
So, a baritone MTF who trains her voice, may expect to have a female voice averaging E3, that is, ranging D3 to B3, through lots of voice training. If they manage to eliminate ALL or almost all male resonance under and over tones and breathiness, they can actually sound quite convincing as female, even in such a low range. Believe me, many women (and I mean young healthy women, non-smokers, with no breathing issues) do speak in such range, they are usually contraltos.
Anyways, I know I am getting a bit technical here and most if not everybody did not go this far or just fell asleep or went somewhere else.
But for anyone interested, again let me point you to the useful Note/Octave-Hertz conversion chart I uploaded to share with you all, for all of those who speak only the "Hertz" language, which seems to be also used mostly by voice surgeons, as opposed to musical note and octave.
http://i.imgbox.com/OTTxMvJs.jpg
I have been practicing with the Kathe Perez voice feminization method. As many others, they insist that our aim should be an average A3. But this is a NATURAL average only for a person who was born a high tenor or tenorino, that is, a male with a voice break at A4 or A#4. --A very small percentage of birth males are born with this voice type.
Me for example, I am not sure if I break on F#4 or G4, that is, I may be a dramatic or a lyric-dramatic tenor, which are the lowest registers for a tenor voice, approaching a baritone.
This means that FOR ME, a NATURAL-SOUNDING "authentic" female voice after lots of voice training, CAN ONLY BE one with an average note between F#3 and G3. So my NATURAL-SOUNDING female voice can only be in a range between E3 and C4 or F3 and C#4. I have recorded myself tons of times and believe me, when I manage to eliminate most of my male resonance and breathiness and get a clear voice, THAT IS my best voice range, BY FAR. If I go any lower, I sound like an androgynous guy, or like a regular guy. But if I go any higher, which is not difficult for me at all, I sound soooo fake, pathetic, false and "gay", I mean, like a man trying to sound like a woman. So believe me, HIGHER DOES NOT MEAN BETTER!!! It is the resonance and the forced breathiness what one has to ALWAYS have in check. But hey, that's only my opinion, I over-analyze things!
Cheers
Bibi B.
(I do find it interesting that even in this very thread, most talk is about surgery. :) That may be because it's pretty difficult to share decent voice training tips by text only, though.)
Bibi, I would seem to be one example in favor of your theory, at any rate. I think? I was naturally a "light" tenor who could comfortably sing in the alto range. That may explain why all I really needed was practice and imitation - and I'm a very good mimic after years of acting in childhood - to get a convincingly feminine voice. For *me,* stripping out the male chest resonance was the biggest issue in making my pitch sound female.
(My wife is also a tenor, for that matter. Obviously she has no male chest resonance, but she can sing and speak in a range roughly as low as mine was.)
Quote from: StartingOver on August 21, 2015, 05:36:58 AM
So there's lots of chat about various voice surgeries available, but little talk about voice therapy. Is voice therapy something that we shy away from for a reason? I'd love to be able to remedy my voice issues (which give me away bigtime) through voice coaching or something less intrusive than vocal cord surgery, but if it's largely unsuccessful or stressful on the voice, then perhaps surgery is the way to go.
Thoughts? Anyone tried voice therapy of vocal coaching with great results?
(I guess worst case scenario it doesn't work but it helps me with my speech patterns rather than pitch, and I use surgery at a later date to remedy the pitch on a permanent basis.)
I don't think anyone is shying away from voice therapy, I think we ALL have been practicing working on it and using it, mainly because at the time NO alternatives existed. After more than 12 years watching over my voice constantly 24/7 (i.e I was scared to speak during my sleep) a definitive solution was needed, there's NOTHING worse when everything has been done, that something like that still drag you down. It's no longer a "passing" problem, it become an obsession for UNITY and getting over this. So I don't think that with the Wendler Glottoplaty performed in USA, Belgium or Korea any recursive failures have happen, the solution is proven successful (if the patient is doing the things right and flowing strictly the aftercare rules of the surgeon).
I have had the surgery only 2 months ago and not having to think about my voice anymore is PRICELESS.
Thanks for the kind words, Bibi.
I should also note that I started a similar thread sometime back and it got little interest. Actually it got some interest but most were "stay away from surgery!"
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,177178.msg1559623.html
That said, it has some historical value of stuff I tried. It may work for you. I also got some really bad advice in that thread from a few people, so just beware.
Good luck.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on August 26, 2015, 12:50:50 PM
(My wife is also a tenor, for that matter. Obviously she has no male chest resonance, but she can sing and speak in a range roughly as low as mine was.)
Jenna, if your wife is cis, she would be a contralto who sings in the tenor range lol, a cis woman cannot be a tenor, since that voice type is exclusive for individuals who were born male physically. Although if she was born intersexed or something, then I really have no idea how this would work for voice types.
I recommend people start with therapy where they can learn resonance control, speech patterns, sounds to avoid or be careful when speaking, etc. A good speech therapist can give you all the tools you need to get your best female voice and speech, and if you work hard and are lucky, that will be all you need.
Most of the issues I hear women mention relate to internalized fear and uncertainty that their voice will pass when they make sounds they can't really control like coughing, laughing, shouting, moaning in bed, talking in their sleep, etc. That is a bigger issue to solve and therapy techniques won't always help with that. Surgery can be an option to address those concerns and to help with a voice that won't elevate convincingly due to being too low pitched.
I use both, and had I to do it over again, I think therapy first is the way I would have gone. It would have speeded up my recovery by months. My $.02
Bibi - I think a lot of that makes sense, but some things I would disagree on.
On thing that is true - most are baritones and this makes it harder than for tenors. Also i think the voice break definitely is a big issue as it is not changed by anything. So aiming too high with voice training or surgery gets one into the voice break area and then it can get complicated. HOWEVER for many it seems that with surgical options, the voice break becomes less noticeable and with voice training the break can be "trained away".
I personally started probably as a bass-baritone and now am in alto or contralto female range. Incidentially this seems to be almost exactly the same range as my speech therapist who is a cis female. She can go as low as I (B2, barely, C3 with some volume) and in the upper range it gets harsh at the G5. Her average is about 200 Hz, thats G3. Same with me post surgical. Pre surgical with training alone, I moved from originally averaging at about B2 to about D3 in relaxed voice and to F3 in consciously controlled trained voice. My voice break is very low, at just C4/D4. I never hit it with my trained voice as the effort to go that high was just oo much anyways and I would sound fake going there.
Voice training did for me, and i have seen this for many others: An increase in pitch by about 30 Hz plus elimination of male resonance and ideally getting some female resonance instead, changes in prosody and voice melody. The 30 Hz gain is great if you are a tenor - it will put you right into the alto female range or higher and you are all good just with training. For a baritone it is harder because you will get only in the gender neutral area or contralto range, making resonance and all the other parameters crucial. For bass-baritones or bass voices, even reaching contralto voice is a strain because more than these 30 Hz are needed. This is why I eventually had the surgery.
What does happen with surgery though is that the upper pitches sound much much less "fake". They sound naturally feminine and this is a big gain. With training, it is hard to reach those upper notes and sound natural and not squeezed, which is why I would recommend using training only to increase the pitch by those 30 Hz that come naturally from doing resonance training and mybe some more. The FYFV videos are good in that they aim for a 170 Hz voice, which is an alto female range. There is no need to overstrain the voice by oing higher, its ok to have a low female voice, as long as it doe snot go much deeper. Below a certain pitch, even the best resonance control will not compensate for the pitch. In my case this was the C3 - at that point, I would get gendered male even if I used all my skill to make a female resonance. Interestingly by the way, if I do this now, the C3 sounds female - not sure why that is.
But it totally makes sense to not aim too high - my average now is at F3 or G3, which leaves me some distance to the voice break at D4, making it a bit easier than if I had gotten a A3 voice or even higher. It has to be said though that most women go across the break and into head voice occasionally or some do that very often while speaking, so it is not a total no-go to speak in the passagio area. What I found very interesting was, that my voice therapist also often moves up into head voice when we do exercises and we pass the D4 - so at D4 or E4 she also is already in the head voice, which I found very comforting, given she is cis.
Ok, sorry, I was just rambling a bit - lol
I think voice therapy is crucial and for tenors and sometimes baritones it can give a natural and relaxed voice in a low female range, for people with definitely and proven lower voices (I know we all think we must be bass voices or something in our heads), voice training has to be more intense or supportive surgery should be kept as an option.
I was hot to trot to get the surgery last fall. I was going through a painful divorce and finally I felt free to do something for myself. Costs be damned.
I've always had an active role in music. I have performed for pay often, so I suppose that made it professional. I still had a day job. In any case, my natural voice is bass. I can easily hit a low C. But I can also easily sing baritone and tenor is not out of my natural range if I go into what I call a false falsetto which is NOT good for my voice. Falsetto in the alto range is also natural for me in singing. I played in a rock band in my twenties and I'd trade off on the high part harmonies when we'd do three part harmony. So I had experience in using my voice in a range of situations.
I trained myself by listening carefully to women's speech patterns and then by recording myself. I have learned to raise my voice naturally but it is still in a boyish range. I never have issues on the phone because I'm in the groove and I consciously raise my pitch a bit beyond my "normal" voice. I can effortlessly move to a more natural female sounding voice but I don't maintain it throughout the day. I know my voice is in a boyish range even by upping the pitch (higher than where I had originally) to where I now speak without thinking. And I know that if I EVER share a room with someone for sleeping and I mean sleeping, they'd better know I'm trans.
So, I'm sure most of the time, my voice is not terribly feminine. However, for some reason the total package works. I've recently told close friends I've had for years that I'm out of the closet and they were surprised to think "lesbian" and when I told them I was trans, they were shocked.
Ultimately, Yeson got back to me and told me that since I'm older, and only based on my age, they suggested that my chance for success was about 50%. So, it was a nice dream for a couple of weeks and it was wonderful to have that hope for something wonderful to get me through some tough times. But I ultimately decided not to worry about it.
I am excited that surgery is now practical for some of us. I'd never discourage anyone from considering it if they wanted to, anymore than I would for so many of the other procedures some of us go through. I call it personal discretion and sheer guts to spend so much money on any of them.
However with that said, take a look at Lauren Bacall. In one of her first three films (and you won't find it on youtube), you hear this clearly sultry male voice as Bogie enters the bar and when the camera pans to her, you'll drop your tongue as you see it's her. She's in a white dress next to a piano. Or, just look at her on youtube. Most of us here are not teens anymore. Her voice dropped considerably early in life. Take a careful listen to her. I think that most of us can easily learn those inflections and the higher ones (which rarely occur) can work for us in falsetto.
My advice is free and worth every penny.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 26, 2015, 04:59:51 PM
Ultimately, Yeson got back to me and told me that since I'm older, and only based on my age, they suggested that my chance for success was about 50%. So, it was a nice dream for a couple of weeks and it was wonderful to have that hope for something wonderful to get me through some tough times. But I ultimately decided not to worry about it.
Hi Cindi,
Yeson is not the only option.
However if you are happy, you are happy. Only you can decide what makes you happy.
Practice practice practice. Phone calls, skypes, drive throughs, online gaming if you want people to be brutally honest. I never used to hear people try when I first started transitioning but now days I hear a lot of girls with great voices.
I can afford any surgeries I want and because I can I researched this carefully and decided against this surgery. Each of us has a different capability with their voice and some may require this surgery. Luckily for me I have great flexibility in my voice which is a great asset as a public speaker, some of us just DON"T have a flexible voice and this may be an excellent alternative. For those who have taken voice therapy there comes a time, after much practice, when you easily keep the resonance in your head and forward to the front of your mouth. There is no EGO and no need to say what is better but rather what is best for you to achieve your goals.
Quote from: Serenation on August 26, 2015, 09:28:43 PM
Practice practice practice. Phone calls, skypes, drive throughs, online gaming if you want people to be brutally honest. I never used to hear people try when I first started transitioning but now days I hear a lot of girls with great voices.
I have to agree. The typical media stereotype is a beautiful woman who opens her mouth and then a booming deep voice comes out. I was amazed at women like Andrea James, Princess Joules and others who trained themselves to the point of sounding like any other woman.
I think some voice therapists do great work and yes, I heard some really good voices that are trained without surgery. Even for singing it works - listen to Namoli Brennet! I am not sure what determines if surgery is an option or not. I had a lot of flexibility in my voice in terms of pitch range (going from F2-G5 if I was pushing it), but my relaxed voice kept settling at around the D3 or a bit lower. I managed to sound mostly female apparently, or so I was told and in everyday situations it did not destroy my "passing", but occasionally I dropped more or the low undertones came up and then I was asked stupid questions or misgendered on the phone (usually on the Phome I raised pitch for the first couple of sentences by habit to avoide this). So a key to training is certainly to get resonance , inflections and melody right, and to get rid of those undertones somehow without loosing volume. I think its hard , so only a certain percentage of people really succeed in getting an unmistakenly female voice, most get a voice that passes as female most of the time and certainly will do so if the appearance is good.
My reason for getting surgery after trying therapy for a while was that I simply felt wrong in using my voice in a way that felt like I always had to put up an act. For some this seems to come more naturally, or it becomes second nature, or if they are already having an above average pitch, just changing resonance and speech patterns will bring up average pitch in a female range anyways. Remember - speaking monotonously will always lower the average pitch, using a lot of voice melody will increase it - even if you have the same base pitch, just because the software and the ears of people will average out all the pitches used.
Entirely agree with Anja, plus the simple fact of knowing that you can still get access to a voice that is so not yourself, this constant threat of having a male voice inside your own throat is not bearable
Agreed with Anja. My main reason was wanting to "lock" my voice to the female range. However I've heard that with training and prolonged use of the feminine voice that happens anyway and it's difficult to speak lower.
Oh totally - I used a changed voice for 15 years and it pretty much was locked in that mode. It was more androgynous in pitch , but resonance and prosody was apparently reasonably female (at least that was the feedback if I asked here or elsewhere - I don't totally believe that though). But it was definitely different from my original voice and when I tried to get back into my old voice to make a recording that would serve me as a pre op comparison, I struggled to do that. I managed only after several tries and actually I was unable to speak for 2 days after that for some reason! (Practicing the mute-phase after VFS - lol). I could not even drop into that at Yeson to make a good pre op recording. So really, it becomes second nature. For me though, that "second voice" was still not really what I would want to use. In daily life I pushed it a bit more to be higher in pitch, towards the low end of the female pitch range and added more resonance control - which honestly made it sound a bit forced and felt fake to me. I believe, if I had been a tenor to begin with and not a bass, it would have been fine to reach that second voice, lock into it psychologically as I did and then be ok forever.
Quote from: Cristal Lecter on August 27, 2015, 06:25:10 AM
Entirely agree with Anja, plus the simple fact of knowing that you can still get access to a voice that is so not yourself, this constant threat of having a male voice inside your own throat is not bearable
Well, some actually think of it as a feature, if they can change at will. You could drive off potential perpetrators at night, or you could scare kids with it or you could impersonate a guy at the phone if needed - you could sing a duet with yourself - lol.
Quote from: anjaq on August 27, 2015, 09:22:39 AM
Well, some actually think of it as a feature, if they can change at will. You could drive off potential perpetrators at night, or you could scare kids with it or you could impersonate a guy at the phone if needed - you could sing a duet with yourself - lol.
LOLOL That' so funny
Quote from: Cindi Jones link=topic=194384.msg1735170#msg173517
I trained myself by listening carefully to women's speech patterns and then by recording myself. I can effortlessly move to a more natural female sounding voice but I don't maintain it throughout the day. I know that if I EVER share a room with someone for sleeping and I mean sleeping, they'd better know I'm trans.
So, I'm sure most of the time, my voice is not terribly feminine. However, for some reason the total package works. I've recently told close friends I've had for years that I'm out of the closet and they were surprised to think "lesbian" and when I told them I was trans, they were shocked.
Ultimately, Yeson got back to me and told me that since I'm older, and only based on my age, they suggested that my chance for success was about 50%. So, it was a nice dream for a couple of weeks and it was wonderful to have that hope for something wonderful to get me through some tough times.
I am excited that surgery is now practical for some of us. I'd never discourage anyone from considering it if they wanted to
However with that said, take a look at Lauren Bacall. Most of us here are not teens anymore. Her voice dropped considerably early in life. Take a careful listen to her. I think that most of us can easily learn those inflections and the higher ones (which rarely occur) can work for us in falsetto.
My advice is free and worth every penny.
Cindi
...And your advice is 100% welcome, appreciated and COOL, thanks!
I just checked on Youtube Lauren Bacall, in a video titled "Lauren's Best Lines". WOW! I want a voice like that!!! Who cares if it's in the low spectrum? That's still a feminine voice. And I have never liked how the spoiled-brat type of teenage girl voice sounds anyways!
So all your friends swore you were cis? That's so cool! I wish that could happen to me eventually. At the moment, for any practical purposes I am friendless. I decided to stop frequenting my ex-friends that know me only as a guy, and since I am far from being a self-assured MTF woman, I am not even trying to make any new friends in my current state appearance-wise.
I'm glad Yeson was straightforward with you. That means they really care for the patient, not just for the money. But Yeson is not THE ONLY choice, why don't you check other options that could be more optimistic about the results? Just saying. If I could afford it financially I would definitely do that myself!
I am all for surgery too!!! But I cannot afford it, that's my problem. I think putting it all together it would be around 10K US (surgery, plane tickets, accommodations, food, pre and post-op meds). That's probably very similar the cost of my going to South America for a type three forehead reshaping. It is a super-tough choice, because both things (forehead bumps AND voice) do screw me over when it comes to passability.
Cheers
Bibi B.
With the Yeson response, I decided that I could do better for myself by keeping the cash. I've just gone through a difficult divorce (we were together for 24 years), and I think I can refinance the house if I put some more money down on it. The ex wants me to "assume" the loan but that's basically a refinance with the mortgage company and at this stage they'd just laugh at my income level. We're still working on the division of assets and I need at least two months' worth of pay stubs from the pension.
So, I have a boyish voice. Seriously, I listen to recorded self when I use my normal conversational voice with my friends and I sound like a teenage boy with very few female inflections. But I've only been called out once on it and that was at a star party and it was dark. When I told the person my name he said, "Oops, sorry. I know who you are. You're the lady that builds telescopes, right?" I immediately went into my telephone voice and said, "Yes, that is me," with the emphasis on "is" and increasing pitch at the end of the sentence.
I listen to myself using my "phone voice" and it sounds sort of female to me with a unique sound. I never have problems on the phone. I posted my voice here on the board a few months ago. I did the regular basso and my telephone voice. It is pitched up about half a step than my normal. I suppose I was pushing it a bit.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0au5BAQUjyK (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0au5BAQUjyK)
And here's my normal everyday voice.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1UvDxDTqAx6
It sounds very boyish and I do NOT understand how people can hear it and think I'm female. But I keep telling everyone, "it's the total package. You can have a couple or three manly traits and no one will really think much of it. Just be confident."
As soon as the divorce started, I put a different message on my answering machine in my old male basso voice to screen my calls and ward off a certain person. It worked very well for that. He'd never heard THAT voice before and would NOT leave a message. My mother called and did not recognize the old voice. That was a hoot. She thought that I already had a new boyfriend. Ha!
As for hormones helping me or having trouble getting back to the old voice... nope, not one single bit. I can go there any time I want. But I do have to want to do it. I am thoroughly entrenched in a different range than before transition without thinking about it all the time... even though it still sounds boyish.
Cindi
I dont think the voice in "Lauren's Best Lines" was that low. It sounds fine for me. Its probably a nice Alto voice, not even the next lower one.
If Yeson says its a higher risk surgery, I am not sure if asking someone else will give you much answers. Either they tell you the same, or they may be more out for the money or just be more (overly) self confident if they say "sure thing, we can do that". If a world class surgeon says that there is an issue with that, I would give him the credit and keep it in mind.
Its a bit like when I had FFS consultations. FacialTeam told me that I dont need FFS, but if I want to improve my looks, they can of course offer me some things and we did the simulations for that. Dr Bart just wrote down a long list of things he would do and was already writing a quotation about the price for it while I was still sitting there - totally different experience.
From a different perspective.... I know a cis woman who's pitch is right in the golden zone for an alto. She is one of the few who knows I'm trans. Absolutely nothing wrong where that is concerned. But she talks like a man, dresses like a man, has blinding large boobs and has a butch haircut. She is not a lesbian. She gets mistaken for a guy quite often.
She never says anything about it other than "Oh that? It happens all the time. I don't care."
Go figure.
Cindi
Cindi, I think your voice is pretty good. If I didn't know you were trans I'd have given you the benefit of the doubt.
Your intonation and prosody helps more than just pitch. I have no idea what your pitch is but I think the feminine aspect is not that pitch dependent
Quote from: iKate on August 27, 2015, 04:54:23 PM
Cindi, I think your voice is pretty good. If I didn't know you were trans I'd have given you the benefit of the doubt.
Your intonation and prosody helps more than just pitch. I have no idea what your pitch is but I think the feminine aspect is not that pitch dependent
I finally looked up prosody to see the real meaning. Seriously. I thought I had it in all the context here on the board but I had to look it up. Thank you for the comment. It is who I am and and what my voice has been for 28 years. It got me through okay.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 27, 2015, 05:12:53 PM
I finally looked up prosody to see the real meaning. Seriously. I thought I had it in all the context here on the board but I had to look it up. Thank you for the comment. It is who I am and has been for 28 years.
Cindi
I had it too before HRT but the estrogen may have altered my wiring as I just became more sing songy.
Cindi, while both samples sound feminine, you have something in your voice that they never taught in speech therapy. When your voice drops, you tend to have Glottal Fry which make it sound like you are working at the bottom of your range. When you move into the upper pitches, it's smooth and sounds exactly like the the transition would sound in a woman's voice. Your ear might be mistaking the Fry for a low voice but it's something much different in that it tells the ear that's as low as the voice goes. Because the fry isn't forced, it shouldn't damage your voice. Voice damage would result when a man is attempting to have a gruff voice by forcing the fry at a loud volume.
If I were you, I wouldn't attempt to alter the Fry because it isn't causing any harm, it make your voice unique and the only way around the fry might require pushing your voice even higher putting you in an uncomfortable pitch.
Quote from: Dena on August 27, 2015, 06:33:55 PM
Cindi, while both samples sound feminine, you have something in your voice that they never taught in speech therapy. When your voice drops, you tend to have Glottal Fry which make it sound like you are working at the bottom of your range. When you move into the upper pitches, it's smooth and sounds exactly like the the transition would sound in a woman's voice. Your ear might be mistaking the Fry for a low voice but it's something much different in that it tells the ear that's as low as the voice goes. Because the fry isn't forced, it shouldn't damage your voice. Voice damage would result when a man is attempting to have a gruff voice by forcing the fry at a loud volume.
If I were you, I wouldn't attempt to alter the Fry because it isn't causing any harm, it make your voice unique and the only way around the fry might require pushing your voice even higher putting you in an uncomfortable pitch.
This is interesting. Glottal Fry. Never heard that term before. I looked it up and I found out that it is just another synonym for the more popular term "Vocal Fry".
Lately I have discovered that THE BEST MTF voices I've ever heard, ALWAYS have vocal fry at the end of most of their sentences. So I have tried that myself, speaking lower than that so-called prototype feminine average pitch, A3 (220 Hertz), in order to get that natural vocal fry at the end of my own sentences, and I've discovered that I do get that when I average as low as F#3 or G3 (185-200 Hertz) and this is my more natural feminine voice because it sounds clearer, with very little "weird resonance", but the problem is that it is androgynous at best because I speak super-montone, since I am not comfortble doing exaggerated inflections until I LIKE my resonance. When I go as high as averaging G#3 or A3 (210-220 Hertz), I sound very weird, fake, like I have some strange illness in my throat that creates a strange gender-ambiguous voice, where it can sometimes sound clearly feminine and sometimes a bit masculine and of course I hate the latter.
I was tempted to post a sample of that voice I am describing, the one averaging about G#3 to A3, but both my voice and accent are so pathetic that I refrained from doing it.
Cheers
Bibi B.
I have natural fry and I think it's annoying. I mentioned it to Dr Kim, he put it on my chart but I don't think he did or recommended anything to fix it.
What always frustrates me is when people on videos (and in forums) say to "simply remove the resonance from your voice by raising pitch gradually", etc. I don't get it. I can speak in a super high pitch but I still have full resonance even when I've tried "pinching my voice" and finding my break and working my way backwards. No matter what exercise I've seen, I can do it just like them but never get rid of the resonance.
My wife just bought me the Andrea James Survival Kit for voices and I'll see if that will be different. I'm willing to work for it but it's just hard to hear my recordings and imagine my voice ever sounding like some of those I hear.
It's like some kind of magic trick that nobody can explain properly to the rest of us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsE5mysfZsY
Is she or isn't she? I had to watch some of her other videos to be sure.
Cindi
Quote from: Abysha on August 27, 2015, 07:52:58 PM
What always frustrates me is when people on videos (and in forums) say to "simply remove the resonance from your voice by raising pitch gradually", etc. I don't get it. I can speak in a super high pitch but I still have full resonance even when I've tried "pinching my voice" and finding my break and working my way backwards. No matter what exercise I've seen, I can do it just like them but never get rid of the resonance.
My wife just bought me the Andrea James Survival Kit for voices and I'll see if that will be different. I'm willing to work for it but it's just hard to hear my recordings and imagine my voice ever sounding like some of those I hear.
It's like some kind of magic trick that nobody can explain properly to the rest of us.
The only two tricks I know for changing your resonance is to raise your larynx when speaking and to some degree you can control it a little with your mouth configuration. For the most part we are pretty well stuck with what we have and that's why people have different voices even when they speak with the same pitch and same accent. On the other hand, often the lower tones add to a female voice giving it a quality that can be described and warm, full or sexy so it is best to have others judge your voice for these qualities.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 27, 2015, 08:00:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsE5mysfZsY
Is she or isn't she? I had to watch some of her other videos to be sure.
Cindi
What, cis? I think she is cis, but then again, I tend to see everybody as cis except for myself. But (and this is uncalled for, sorry) even though she has a longish face, her whole facial shape (almost perfectly feminine-oval), eye size and separation, flawless feminine forehead and of course the voice, do tell me she is cis. If she is trans though, I might as well give up on transitioning right away because I don't think I will ever be able to look like that even with the most expensive FFS out there lol.
If that wasn't even the question, please do tell me, to delete this probably absurd comment of mine.
Cheers
Bibi B.
P.S. What I find almost unbelievable is that that video is approaching one million views... some of my favorite songs, played on MTV, radio or whatever, don't have as many views!!!
Hi -
I went to a well known speech pathologist who works with singers and others and worked with him every week for about 5 months - it really helped. However, he was quite honest and said I wouldn't get into the 'normal' feminine range. After a lot of practice, 2 years, I was somewhat passable and that's where I've been for 12 years. It hasn't been a huge problem and I'm a very public person professionally, but I'd love to not to get sir'd on the phone that first time. (It's interesting though, as that moment always opens an opportunity to get better related, except when I'm dead-dog tired and want to hear, "Hi ma'am/hun/sweety/ . . . blah, blah, blah" - sigh)
I think voice surgery has improved to the point that I'm willing to risk it. I'm older of course now and at my age that is a factor, but all things considered I'm seriously considering both voice and FFS.
Take good care and best of everything,
Rachel
Even with voice surgery; resonance is still an issue. There was a woman here who said she was at 250Hz yet still sounded male.
I have no idea what to do as I'm just lucky my resonance is feminine enough but J-Mi and others have said that they speak from the throat or similar. I don't know. I do know that FYFV has tips on how to deal with resonance.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 27, 2015, 08:00:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsE5mysfZsY
Is she or isn't she? I had to watch some of her other videos to be sure.
Cindi
She could be cis she could be trans but I'm leaning toward cis.
Quote from: iKate on August 28, 2015, 04:49:37 AM
Even with voice surgery; resonance is still an issue. There was a woman here who said she was at 250Hz yet still sounded male.
I have no idea what to do as I'm just lucky my resonance is feminine enough but J-Mi and others have said that they speak from the throat or similar. I don't know. I do know that FYFV has tips on how to deal with resonance.
I heard that voice and it wasn't resonance that was the problem. She was working at a higher pitch than she should have and it sounded monotone. Proper therapy would have lowered the pitch, added inflection and feminine speech patterns changing the voice to a very feminine one. Pitch isn't everything as women with very low voices have proven.
The human ear and mind look for a number of things to determine the gender of a voice and you need to get in the habit of listing to others peoples voices to hear these little bits. Sometimes I will hear something in a voice I haven't heard before and I stop to ask what I just heard and what did it tell me. That happens often when I hear a voice recorded here and it just isn't working for some reason. You have to ask yourself what is there and what isn't. The answer will tell you what the voice needs to be fixed.
Quote from: Dena on August 27, 2015, 06:33:55 PM
When your voice drops, you tend to have Glottal Fry which make it sound like you are working at the bottom of your range.
this can actually be really helpful in terms of gender perception. People pick up on these clues, so if you get into vocal fry at the same pitch range as other women do, it gives the impression that this is your lower end of the pitch range, which in turn means that the voice is not gendered male so easily, because a male voice would be able to go deeper and not have vocal fry already at a high pitch. Some people actually trained theit voices to give that expression. Of course it depends on there that happens, pitchwise.
Quote from: Abysha on August 27, 2015, 07:52:58 PM
What always frustrates me is when people on videos (and in forums) say to "simply remove the resonance from your voice by raising pitch gradually", etc. I don't get it. I can speak in a super high pitch but I still have full resonance
Can you show me how to do that? LOL - Yeson told me I am not having enough resonance in my voice and should try to get a lot more resonance into it. I am not sure if this is because I supressed resonance for 15 years too much or what - but apparently I cannot really do good resonance. However I think that it is not so much about getting rid of resonance - which also works to feminize the voice but then it becomes thin and weak - but to change resonance to a different pattern.
I am at a loss right now, too as to how to resore resonance, but do it in a way that will not reactivate some long forgotten male resonance maybe...
Anjaq, the resonance issue for you is most interesting. I mean, I'm sorry you are dealing with that, but I'm curious as to why your normal speech is lacking in it. Perhaps it is in your explanation, but if you would feel more comfortable, could you post a link to your current normal speaking voice? I'm sure it's around here in another thread.
Cindi
I posted some clips here https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,153931.msg1733903.html#msg1733903
The remark of the SLT at Yeson was directed at the voice exercises though, they did not say my speaking voice was bad, although I know it is - because people keep asking me if I am getting a cold or something else
Quote from: bibilinda on August 28, 2015, 05:21:36 PM
That's right I think the reason was it was a super-forced sounding voice that sounded mostly like a reinforced falsetto rather than mixed voice. But I think I remember this lady said she was recovering from voice surgery and it wasn't six months yet, which is the very minimum time to start seeing permanent results. So my guess is she was still healing.
I am pretty sure I remember, it was after 12 months.
When I was about eight years old, my brother gave me a tape recorder. When I recorded my natural voice, I was stunned at the playback. The feminine voice that I heard was not what I expected. Through out my life I have been read as a woman on the phone. Without any training, I have a natural female voice.
I did participate in a voice study at George Washington University. With an endoscopic exam that was part of the study, the doctor found that I do have vocal chords that are indistinguishable from a genetic woman's.
I did discuss surgical options while walking with one of the other doctors from one building to another on campus. Her opinion leaned towards training. She expressed concern over medical mistakes that can happen, a risk in any surgical option.
I went to a Thai surgeon for GRS. One of the patient's results were not to her liking. Our surgeon was one of the most highly recommended in the world's trans community. To be fair, I have no complaints. However, this is a good example of what can happen in the operating room theater. Problems occur. Patient expectations are sometimes not met.
I would give voice training serious thought. Many of us will never pass perfectly. Learning to accept this and not allowing it to overwhelm or destroy our lives is an aspect of transitional maturity that is just as important as to how perfectly we feel our surgical alterations have made us "bullet proof" in the eyes of strangers who we will probably never see again.
Allowing our vanity to control our lives to the point of bankruptcy or over the top surgical procedures, can be a destructive force in anyone's life, trans or otherwise. Cheerfully enjoying our lives is a better option than thinking perfection is our ONLY option. Moderation, in all things....
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Hi All (Again);
I spent a lot time and $$$ on speech therapy and it helped a lot: meter, tonality, though not so much with pitch. With concentrated effort I could only get into the lowest range for a female. The long-term result is I speak like a woman with masculine-like voice that has a lot of feme attributes. I never pass on the phone.
I know some for whom voice therapy really worked. I'm not one of them. I didn't pursue voice feminization because 10 years ago it was risky and it still has a some downsides, but I'm convinced that that there's a good chance it could help a lot now. Age is concern here to as I'm 72 while still very active professionally and socially. What the hay - life is short!
My decision process is down to doing it here in the US. It's simple a a quality of life, time and money decision now.
The matter for me comes down to: Risk (acceptable but wish it was less), time (being voice restricted for weeks-months is challenging), cost (it seems like highway robbery to me but it's the only game in town)
Well . . . I got a cold (achew) so good night to all - luv ya,
Rachel