Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Did anyone here have FFS and really couldn't pass for the life of them before it? Was it an absolute game changer?

Here's my situation: I started hormones 3 and a half years ago and I still barely pass/blend in. Yeah, I hate the terminology too...having to try and blend in as myself is a stupid concept. But I also don't feel like myself because of it. Most days I look in the mirror and just see a boy. I'm always the biggest woman in the room, bar none. (in every area of my body, literally) I honestly think this is the biggest issue: my frame is riiiiight outside any kind of cis female ranges and thus even the most femme features on me (full hair, femme andro facial features) still read register as male because of my frame. I don't think I've ever really passed as female for an entire day...on the street it's near impossible for me. (all the times it has happened on the street it's happened at night, and once in the day time, and the number of times in total I can count on one hand) Asides from that the vast bulk of the times I've been correctly gendered by strangers was at an old art store job I had from July of 2013 (1.5 years on HRT) to last December of 2014. (2.5 years on HRT and a nose job) During the course of the year and a half I was working there I was correctly gendered by customers in maybe 3 or 4 dozen separate instances...everything from getting my attention with "miss" and "ma'm" (which started to happen slightly more often after rhinoplasty, even if it wasn't the majority still) to two people thinking I was a female coworker they had spoken to on the phone before coming in, to three or four instances where someone would initially misgender me, and before I could catch it, correct themselves, to a kind old man I rang up for 15 minutes wishing "my boyfriend and I well." Two friends of mine who I met at a party, upon first meeting me, both thought I was FtM but "weren't quite sure." Never had a random guy hit on/catcall me, ever. Not that that's something I want, but it can be quite the litmus test.

I'm told I'm right on that cusp. But I absolutely do not feel it, especially when I look at my body and then look at others. I feel like if some area of my body, or at least most of it feel somewhere in the larger cis female range I'd be fine by now. Yeah, my voice doesn't pass either, but I've still been correctly gendered with it a few times, both when I've raised it up, not been trying with it (rare, but it happened a couple times at that job) and over the phone a few times. Yes, I over-obsess about my pass/blendability, but honestly anyone else in my position I'd be surprised if they didn't do the same, trying everything they could to find a solution and running up against barrier after barrier. I just feel anytime I attempt to get femmed up I stick out like a sore thumb, which is pretty crushing for my self image, sense of self worth, and overall life experience relating back to my internal sense of self.

Like, ok. Maybe I can't blend. Laverne Cox talks about not being able to too. But she still doesn't look...awkward. She's still happy with herself and her life and her body. Because her body still....fits enough along with most taller women and she doesn't look awkward. I mean, maybe she doesn't have complete passing privileges because she's slightly slightly bigger in some areas or whatever....but I'm slightly bigger in all areas to the point where it's blatantly noticeable. And when I try to look at role models like that, where my self comfort because the priority even beyond just blending to society, I still don't see myself being able to fit into that. I just see some weird femme guy.

I'm seeing a new therapist this month, I'm currently on a waitlist and it should go through, at the latest next month. I'm starting a new SSRI. But these are just methods to get my life more on track and productive. I feel as though, "what's the point?" if I can't even achieve the dream of being myself in more than spirit but (mostly) in body. I know it'll never be perfect, or even ideal...but just ok enough to move on in my life. That's all I want, and I even feel that is, logically, impossible. (even with FFS and seeing the results of it) I feel because of this my life has completely lost meaning. I'm at a loss what to do.

It's tough , I've been on HRT for 23.8 months. I think I'm doing all right but I can't escape the insanity of not seeing the female. When I put the make up on and I seem to be ok , but that male is still lurking. The only conclusion I've  come to is my own acceptance for what I look like and that I rather keep trying than not try. I can see a big change in the way I look putting before and after pictures side by side, but it doesn't always stop that insanity. It's like no matter how much change I still see that guy.

Lemons, I've read a lot of the posts you have made over the past few months about your difficulties with passing, but I have to say, I'm somewhat confused. It sounds like you really do care about being as passable as humanly possible, but then you insist on doing things like wearing your hair short, which I'm sorry, but I have miss-gendered cisgendered women before because they had short/androgynous haircuts. Or some people had said in the previous thread you might want to thin your eyebrows a little, which really does make a huge difference in your appearance, but you said you just hadn't been keeping up with it. Or you say your voice isn't passable at all, but then you insist that appearance is your biggest problem. You seem to just ignore most of the advice other people give you. I'm having a very hard time figuring out what it is that you actually want. I've seen your pictures, and I believe that you could pass if you put your effort in the right areas, and you don't really need FFS to be passable per say. It probably would help with a few things, but it's not going to change your body at all, which you also seem to have a lot of issues with. I think at this point, the only thing I can really tell you, is that you need to work on self-acceptance. For most of us, transition is not a perfect process, and believe me, if there was a way for me to have a perfect non-transgender female body, I would do it in a second. But sometimes you have to learn to accept that some things are out of your reach, and to find a way to be happy with the things that you have. And from what I can tell, the only thing keeping you from being happy with what you have right now is yourself.

ditto

Hello, So sorry you are having a *hitty time. I send a big hug  :)


I have found that " passing " is all about being confident. I sometimes get mis-gendered but it is their perception, their understanding of what being " female " is. I know I'm a girl and NOTHING anyone can ever do or say, will change that fact.

It is other peoples that have a problem not us. ( If I may include you all ? )

Be yourself and everyone else will understand  ;) If they choose not too *uck them ! ( Not literally  ;) although  :-\ )

Paula, <3 X.

Quote from: Miyuki on September 20, 2015, 11:16:13 AM
Lemons, I've read a lot of the posts you have made over the past few months about your difficulties with passing, but I have to say, I'm somewhat confused. It sounds like you really do care about being as passable as humanly possible, but then you insist on doing things like wearing your hair short, which I'm sorry, but I have miss-gendered cisgendered women before because they had short/androgynous haircuts. Or some people had said in the previous thread you might want to thin your eyebrows a little, which really does make a huge difference in your appearance, but you said you just hadn't been keeping up with it. Or you say your voice isn't passable at all, but then you insist that appearance is your biggest problem. You seem to just ignore most of the advice other people give you. I'm having a very hard time figuring out what it is that you actually want. I've seen your pictures, and I believe that you could pass if you put your effort in the right areas, and you don't really need FFS to be passable per say. It probably would help with a few things, but it's not going to change your body at all, which you also seem to have a lot of issues with. I think at this point, the only thing I can really tell you, is that you need to work on self-acceptance. For most of us, transition is not a perfect process, and believe me, if there was a way for me to have a perfect non-transgender female body, I would do it in a second. But sometimes you have to learn to accept that some things are out of your reach, and to find a way to be happy with the things that you have. And from what I can tell, the only thing keeping you from being happy with what you have right now is yourself.

I've started moving into correcting all these things...still not terribly hopeful which sucks...I don't know.  I really wanna blend into the world as myself.

Hi lemons,

Even though I mostly unquestionably pass, I really don't let it bother me as much when I don't. However, I am more likely to be misgendered and deadnamed by people I know. Most aren't malicious, it's just that they've grown accustomed to me.

What did kick it up a notch for me was my hair and my voice. My hair being longer and in a certain pattern with the temples filling in gets me read as female all the time. I couldn't reliably do it with short hair.

But at some point I just don't let it bother me much. I haven't been misgendered by strangers in a few months but if I was, I would simply correct them and move on. When I corrected people before they would apologize and even feel a bit embarrassed.

Let's face it, we all have varying degrees of testosterone damage. Maybe FFS is for you but do the virtual FFS first and see. Then maybe think about some body contouring to address your body issues.  How are your boobs? THat kind of helps, since standing straight I can't see my toes anymore and they definitely scream female.

Good luck!

Quote from: lemons on September 20, 2015, 01:35:01 PM
I've started moving into correcting all these things...still not terribly hopeful which sucks...I don't know.  I really wanna blend into the world as myself.

I understand that, I really do. I care a lot about passing too, because I think that to some extent other people have to really believe that you are female in order to accept you completely as one. I plan to have FFS too when I can afford it, even though I don't necessarily need it, because I want the face other people see to be the way I see myself. But, I have also come to accept that I'm not always going to blend in. I'm 6 feet tall, and my frame is larger than what a cisgendered woman would normally have, I wear a size 12 women's shoe size (sometimes 11 1/2), and I generally do look huge when placed next to most women. On the other hand, my shoe size is 1 - 1/2 size larger than my mom's, I am only a couple of inches taller than her, and she has a larger frame too. Lots of women have issues with their appearance, but it doesn't stop them from finding acceptance from those around them and enjoying their lives. Even if you don't "blend in" as a women, you are not any worse off than all the other women in the world that don't blend in. And if they pass and are accepted as their gender by the world around them, there's no reason you can't be either.

Lemons,

I'm really sorry you are having a tough time. I have had my own struggles recently, with similar themes; I'm convinced I don't totally pass, and that's really important to me. The thing is though, people around me (friends, family) tell me I do pass, and regularly compliment me on my looks, but I don't listen, I don't believe it or take it in. Instead my mind focuses on things that I hate about myself (see my thread about feet for evidence). I spend so much time stressing and being depressed about things that I can't change, convincing myself that I am some kind of impossible case, that it's stopping me from living.

I have on occasion seen pics of you, but they have often disappeared by the time I see your posts, because you delete them so quickly. You, from what I remember, are young and slim and attractive. But I recall your presentation being somewhat androgynous. So saying that you have tried everything isn't completely true. Grow your hair, work on your presentation. There aren't many women I know who could get away with short hair without being occasionally misgendered; the women who tend to look best with short hair are small pixie like ones.

Its hypocritical for me to say this because I struggle to apply the same to my own life, but you need to get out of the spiral of negative thinking. You will just be constantly reinforcing these 'flaws' in your own mind.

The other thing to consider is this; some of the happiest trans women I know don't pass flawlessly. They look good because they know how to present themselves and what works for them, and they come across in a confident way, but they are readable as trans. Does it stop them from doing anything? Not in the slightest. The chances are that most of us who didn't start transitioning as a teenager will have some degree of masculinity in our appearance, and I know how hard this is, but we all have to come to terms with that at some point, and accept ourselves for who we are. Again it's not easy to do this and I know it all too well but just take it one day at a time.

Quote from: Miyuki on September 20, 2015, 01:56:12 PM
I understand that, I really do. I care a lot about passing too, because I think that to some extent other people have to really believe that you are female in order to accept you completely as one. I plan to have FFS too when I can afford it, even though I don't necessarily need it, because I want the face other people see to be the way I see myself. But, I have also come to accept that I'm not always going to blend in. I'm 6 feet tall, and my frame is larger than what a cisgendered woman would normally have, I wear a size 12 women's shoe size (sometimes 11 1/2), and I generally do look huge when placed next to most women. On the other hand, my shoe size is 1 - 1/2 size larger than my mom's, I am only a couple of inches taller than her, and she has a larger frame too. Lots of women have issues with their appearance, but it doesn't stop them from finding acceptance from those around them and enjoying their lives. Even if you don't "blend in" as a women, you are not any worse off than all the other women in the world that don't blend in. And if they pass and are accepted as their gender by the world around them, there's no reason you can't be either.

Yes, but what happens when you don't see any women who are your size?  I don't mean height...height wise I do see women my height....size wise I don't.

I live in a downtown area next to a university you could get a perfect scientific sampling of women's shapes. There are every possible shape , young , old , big ,small. tall, short muscular, thin you name it we got it.

Quote from: lemons on September 20, 2015, 04:34:23 PM
Yes, but what happens when you don't see any women who are your size?  I don't mean height...height wise I do see women my height....size wise I don't.

You could always start hanging out with me I guess. ;) But I've seen your pictures, and really, there are women out there who are as big as you, if not bigger. Maybe you just spend a lot of time around more petite women, and that makes you feel big by comparison, but in reality there are some pretty large women out there if you look hard enough. Look, worst case scenario, you could always go with my all purpose transition contingency plan and get yourself some extra large breast implants. Then people will be too focused on staring at your chest to even notice that the rest of your body is a bit on the large side. ;)

I'm thinking for myself that large breasts would be cool.

First, I think non-passing trans women can be really beautiful anyway. Also there's a vulnerability to being this way that a cis woman wouldn't have. With a bit of confidence, it's really kind of charming. So, even if I can't ever pass, I'll be happy to get to that point.

Second, I think I  just echo what Miyuki inititially said. I've seen a few of your threads, which have been interesting because you're a very similar height/build to me. You rock an andro look and it really suits you. But, it's the kind of look a girl would do if she wanted to look boyish. So, you're trying to pull of a look as if you're a cis female who is trying to look like a male. I think most trans-women wouldn't be able to pass doing that. It still works for you though. I mean you're really just fine as you are.

I seem to be almost passable with long hair (hairpiece), makeup and a skirt. I just know I wouldn't even be close to that if I tried to do an andro look that would leave many cis women looking unpassable. I think I likely won't ever be able to wear all the things a perfect 5'4" cis-female can wear and still expect to pass/blend. But, at the same time, I feel like it's ok for me not to pass blend, despite the disadvantages.

Hi Lemons,

I've been following your posts and I truly empathize with you. However, one thing that really helped me in the past until now is to be at peace that I am biologically born male and my body has been damaged by years of being on T. So the whole comparing our body structure to a cis gendered female will ultimately defeat us in more ways than one. However, I have learned how to dress and accentuate my body that gets noticed positively. By the way, I have been on HRT for more than a year and I've only been misgendered a few times and that's been awhile (like 9 months ago).

I think the best possible solution with your dilemma is to be at peace of who you are and be a better version of yourself everyday. I know it sounds cliche but it has helped me in my transition. Do baby steps and keep going at it.

Keep that chin up and stay beautiful as always. By the way I rarely give my opinion/s on passability, but you pass in my books  :)

Hugs,

April

Quote from: Miyuki on September 20, 2015, 04:53:42 PM
You could always start hanging out with me I guess. ;) But I've seen your pictures, and really, there are women out there who are as big as you, if not bigger. Maybe you just spend a lot of time around more petite women, and that makes you feel big by comparison, but in reality there are some pretty large women out there if you look hard enough. Look, worst case scenario, you could always go with my all purpose transition contingency plan and get yourself some extra large breast implants. Then people will be too focused on staring at your chest to even notice that the rest of your body is a bit on the large side. ;)

A male frame with large boobs wouldn't work. I really don't think you guys get what I mean when I say I'm large framed.  I am large framed, all over.  Big hands, big feet, big muscley legs, big waist, big big head.  Just big all over.  Outside cis female norms, even the big ones.  Big.  Here.  This was me pre transition.  Notice how I'm built thin yet I'm still bigger than everyone else.  This is what I mean:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZBUfjRLl.jpg&hash=643a5497c9d1966c0077517983f017bf46ba4c92) (far right with the flower in mouth)



I have never seen a photo of me past puberty where I was next to a woman who was relatively the same size as me.  Never, ever.  Still don't.

And getting at what saraht said...I am actually quite feminine internally.  Here's the issue: I look absurd in these clothes.  Which is why I sway away from it  It's less a "that's not me" and more a "I'm super self conscious and don't want to look like a clown/drag queen."  The few times I've gone out all gussied up I got NOTHING but hard confused slightly worried stares, everywhere.  And these were all recent too. (within this year)

Quote from: carmenkate on September 20, 2015, 06:09:27 PM
Hi Lemons,

I've been following your posts and I truly empathize with you. However, one thing that really helped me in the past until now is to be at peace that I am biologically born male and my body has been damaged by years of being on T. So the whole comparing our body structure to a cis gendered female will ultimately defeat us in more ways than one. However, I have learned how to dress and accentuate my body that gets noticed positively. By the way, I have been on HRT for more than a year and I've only been misgendered a few times and that's been awhile (like 9 months ago).

I think the best possible solution with your dilemma is to be at peace of who you are and be a better version of yourself everyday. I know it sounds cliche but it has helped me in my transition. Do baby steps and keep going at it.

Keep that chin up and stay beautiful as always. By the way I rarely give my opinion/s on passability, but you pass in my books  :)

Hugs,

April

Passing in controlled photos is different than in person.  I can pass fine in photos.  I rarely do in person.

I am 6ft tall, have giant tree frog hands, according to ScubaPro I have "Super Extra Large" feet, a barrel chest, deep then deep male radio announcer voice and balding since 14. I've been on HRT for 6 years now, it hasn't changed a thing beyond how I feel about myself and being trans.

99% of passing is attitude. Plus, I also go out of my way to have as much of an unambiguous female presentation as possible. Be it in my preferred girlie-girl mode or a lot more casual jeans and a nice top. Sure its a pain, hair, makeup etc.. Well, welcome to womanhood.

When I was in my 20's, totally unsure of myself, zero to negative self-confidence I was always in the fog of "Some Guy in a Dress". I exuded it. I have no doubt today other's picked up on it. Any wonder I stopped?, Twice?

I admire, don't understand, even envious of those that can take a "F the world" attitude and present however they want and don't give a rat's ass what other's think. I'm definitely NOT one of them. However I do know I can never be unreadable. So far I haven't had rocks thrown at me or worse. I haven't even expected that much after my last two attempts at transitioning.

Quote from: lemons on September 20, 2015, 09:44:19 PM
A male frame with large boobs wouldn't work. I really don't think you guys get what I mean when I say I'm large framed.  I am large framed, all over.  Big hands, big feet, big muscley legs, big waist, big big head.  Just big all over.  Outside cis female norms, even the big ones.  Big.  Here.  This was me pre transition.  Notice how I'm built thin yet I'm still bigger than everyone else.  This is what I mean:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZBUfjRLl.jpg&hash=643a5497c9d1966c0077517983f017bf46ba4c92) (far right with the flower in mouth)



I have never seen a photo of me past puberty where I was next to a woman who was relatively the same size as me.  Never, ever.  Still don't.

And getting at what saraht said...I am actually quite feminine internally.  Here's the issue: I look absurd in these clothes.  Which is why I sway away from it  It's less a "that's not me" and more a "I'm super self conscious and don't want to look like a clown/drag queen."  The few times I've gone out all gussied up I got NOTHING but hard confused slightly worried stares, everywhere.  And these were all recent too. (within this year)

Passing in controlled photos is different than in person.  I can pass fine in photos.  I rarely do in person.

Well, what I can say, is that based on the recent pictures you have posted of yourself, I can't find a reason why you couldn't be considered passable in most situations. Honestly, I know controlled pictures don't tell the whole story, and I could probably give you much better advice if I could see you in person, but I'm not sure it would help. I don't think you look bad at all. In fact I think is several ways you look better than I do, and I pass most of the time, and in theory we are about the same physical size. What I've been trying to say though, is that you need to stop focusing on things like your size. It just doesn't go anywhere, because things like a large frame or large hands/feet are things that there is currently no way to fix. So if these things are really bad problems for you, I am sorry for that, but you are going to have to find a way to live with them, because there's not really anything else you can do. If you want to improve your ability to pass though, I'm sure you would succeed if you listened to the advice others have given here.

I was blessed with broad shoulders and absolutely no hips. I had some surgery done (6 times) on my rear end which also reduced the muscle mass considerably there. It was not elective surgery. Fortunately, I have a fat head. Seriously. That lessens the effect of having broad shoulders. I also use a slightly lighter shade of powdered foundation than my skin and then a very light blush on top of that. I always wear colored lip gloss. And I have a very feminine hair cut and I spend time every morning working with it to look nice.

The biggest thing for me was to get my weight down from a normal 175 to 140 which is still 10 pounds above the "normal" line for my height. Well actually, at the first of the year, I was down to 105 but I had some marital problems that I'm working through and I've gained back enough to stay stable. My calorie intake is incredibly small but as long as my weight is stable, I'm good with that.

More than anything, it's all about attitude. After you can do the things that you must do, you must have confidence in yourself. That was the biggest game changer for me.

I believe that this is my first time seeing a picture of you. I'm not seeing any of what you're describing. Your feet are cut off in the pic, your hands are hidden, and with your arms crossed I can't really get an accurate idea of your body shape. From what I can tell, your legs are not overly muscular at all, your shoulders aren't that broad or big in any way, your waist looks fine, the weight I'm seeing is in your hips and that's not a bad thing.

Quote from: lemons on September 20, 2015, 09:44:19 PM
I have never seen a photo of me past puberty where I was next to a woman who was relatively the same size as me.  Never, ever.  Still don't.

Well, lemons, neither have I. Since I was ten I was taller than all the kids in my year at primary school (and quite a few more that were older). I know they exist but I have never seen a woman taller than me.

When I tried to transition at age 24 it bugged the freaking daylights out of me, I hated how tall I was, how huge and lumbering I seemed by comparison even to average and slightly taller than average height women. It was one of the (bajillion) reason that attempt at transition failed. This time round I am still just as tall, and parts of me are possible larger than they were before - and yet things are going fine and I pass well. The only thing that has changed was the nonsense in my head telling me I didn't/couldn't/would-never-in-a-million-years pass.

I hate to be blunt with you but you do keep coming back time and time again saying you are too big and that you don't pass - I believe you believe that, but since you can't do anything specifically physical about your hands, feet, head, etc just what can you do about it? Hormones will feminise you but they won't turn you into a woman, won't shrink your hands, feet, whatever - that is an issue the great majority of all transwomen face, especially those of us who find ourselves in the body of a goliath.

Since the physical won't change, it's the emotional/mental that has to. Instead of feeling like some lumbering neanderthal I feel like a striding amazon - I freaking own it and it turns head; and not because they think I'm trans it's because they see a striking woman. If I had told all that to 24 year old me she would have said exactly the stuff you are saying to everyone who tries to offer you support and suggestions. She would have said, "that won't work", "you don't get it", "seriously I am a monstrous freak can't you see it?"...the only reason I "didn't" pass back then was because I didn't believe I did or that I could. I was comparing myself to the most petite women I saw so no wonder I was at odds with myself.

So what can you do? Believe.

ditto

Quote from: saraht123 on September 20, 2015, 05:53:36 PM
First, I think non-passing trans women can be really beautiful anyway. Also there's a vulnerability to being this way that a cis woman wouldn't have. With a bit of confidence, it's really kind of charming. So, even if I can't ever pass, I'll be happy to get to that point.

Second, I think I  just echo what Miyuki inititially said. I've seen a few of your threads, which have been interesting because you're a very similar height/build to me. You rock an andro look and it really suits you. But, it's the kind of look a girl would do if she wanted to look boyish. So, you're trying to pull of a look as if you're a cis female who is trying to look like a male. I think most trans-women wouldn't be able to pass doing that. It still works for you though. I mean you're really just fine as you are.

I seem to be almost passable with long hair (hairpiece), makeup and a skirt. I just know I wouldn't even be close to that if I tried to do an andro look that would leave many cis women looking unpassable. I think I likely won't ever be able to wear all the things a perfect 5'4" cis-female can wear and still expect to pass/blend. But, at the same time, I feel like it's ok for me not to pass blend, despite the disadvantages.

Amen to that! I love the look of an obviously transgender woman.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

A lot of people on here are saying that pre transition photo is the first they'd ever seen a picture of me.  Here's me now, also to give you an idea of hands, feet, waist, head, etc.


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZx0beSIl.jpg&hash=94fc43140b350f41f3fb55c74830c74a05355487)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWA0V78Zl.jpg&hash=65c769c7882b5a3b5b3c63a91ac388b9aa5e9084)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FIc8ROV9l.jpg&hash=2766726145cf8e01861c8e6e31115c6baae9011c)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuGsx1WLl.jpg&hash=7095d36c255faec76f9029013203b593462d448d)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fqd60Ir3l.jpg&hash=f56733ed40037268495432c32d65cfa11e5d9589)




I mean, I know I look fine in these, generally, and female.  The issue I keep facing is, how to accept how big I am.  Because my frame didn't change, and I am generally that same size now as I was in that photo, sans some muscle.

I have a picture in my underwear, it's essentially the same as posting a selfie in a bikini  but apparently I got a warning for that so I can't to show you my waist....

Seriously, the hair. The short hair is calling attention to your other features. Let it grow or try a wig. Very few Trans women can pull off short hair. Many cis women can't either.

I can't see anybody seeing anything but a woman in that picture and I see nothing oversized either. You're being your own worst critic. I did it too. I spent years thinking I looked like this big burly guy that would look ridiculous in women's clothing. Turns out I was borderline passable and what was holding me back was my own self image.

I started complaining about those features that I thought were too masculine to my cis female friends and eventually every one of them opened up about their own features that they thought were too masculine. Soon I started paying more attention to other cis women and started to realize that I already look more feminine than some of them, even within my own family. That made me slowly start to realize that I'm not nearly as masculine as I once thought.

I would work on the voice, but again even that's not really a make or break thing. I know women on thyroid medication that have voices deeper than mine as a result of it. It's not really the sound of the voice. It's how you use it.

I stand 6'1",have a womans size 13 shoe size,right now I'm at 245lb,I wear a size 16-18 top, size 16 bottoms, my hair is past my collar and I pass no problems. I'm blessed that T didn't poison me. Passing is all in your mindset, I have a harder time presenting male then I do female. That profile pic is me 12 yrs ago and I have not changed much except grown older and wiser. I been after my wife for a day I can fully dress and update my pictures. So don't believe that because your big that you can't pass.

Quote from: Ms Grace on September 20, 2015, 11:42:45 PM
Well, lemons, neither have I. Since I was ten I was taller than all the kids in my year at primary school (and quite a few more that were older). I know they exist but I have never seen a woman taller than me.

I know that feeling. I was in a small school for my entire grade school education, and I was always the tallest person in my class. Being so big never fit my personality, but the good thing was that it did keep the bullying from other kids restricted to verbal taunting, because they knew they would be outmatched if they tried to physically assault me.

When I first started experimenting with hormone therapy, I just assumed any sort of public transition would be out of the question, because I could never look like anything other than a freak if I tried to dress like a woman. But gradually, the changes from low dose HRT combined with visiting Susan's Place and really looking at the transformations people had made here gave me hope that I could actually make it. I knew that realistically, there were things about my body that would always stand out as masculine even if I did everything in my power to make myself passable, and this bothered me a lot at first. But when I actually started to pass and got to experience what it was like to be treated as female by those around me, that's when I realized that I cared about the way others treated me much more than I cared about the issues I had with my own body, and eventually those issues quit being such a big deal. I think the best thing that ever happened to my sense of self-esteem, was that when I was visiting New York last year, I spent some time with the six year old daughter of one of my cousins, and she accepted me as her cousin Allison from the first moment we met. And I know for sure she wasn't just humoring me, because that's not something six year olds do. ;)

I think I've posted this before, but here is a picture of me from around that time:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs22.postimg.org%2Fbplsozn7l%2FIMG_0548.jpg&hash=cc3f00e16a055f1563a3114d3b8db69a96399b15)

My hand being so close to the mirror makes it look bigger than normal, but even so, you can tell it's not small. There is pretty much nothing small about me in that picture. But, it didn't stop me from passing back then and it doesn't stop me now, so that is why I simply refuse to accept that someone with a body that probably looks smaller than mine couldn't pass because of it. It may get you clocked more often if someone is trying to clock you, but the vast majority of people will accept what they see at face value.

Quote from: lemons on September 21, 2015, 06:49:50 AM
I mean, I know I look fine in these, generally, and female.  The issue I keep facing is, how to accept how big I am.  Because my frame didn't change, and I am generally that same size now as I was in that photo, sans some muscle.

This may not sound like the greatest advice, but the way you accept it, is to just stop caring. Look at things objectively. Does being too big in anyway stop you from doing the things you really want to do with your life? Does it bother other people nearly as much as it bothers you? Based on what I have told you, and what everyone else here has said, do you really believe it's the reason you were having difficulty passing? If none of those things are true, then just accept that even though it might bother you to think about it, in the greater scheme of things it doesn't matter, and there's no reason it has to be something that stops you from being happy.

The consistent thing I keep seeing here is that everyone thinks they're way too big until taking a step back and seeing they're really not even compared to a lot of other women. This is not my experience.  I have searched and searched and searched for women bigger than me and have yet to see a single one, except one woman who likely had gigantism...and she still had a smaller head than me.

I see it standing next to other women too, all the time.  I know on average women are smaller but even the taller ones I look noticeably bigger next to.

The only people who have tried to tell me otherwise were two people: my mom's boyfriend who told me he's met women who were bigger than me in every way (I remember him describing this one woman who was just ginormous and neanderthal like...she was cis), and my psyhican who preoccupies my hormones, who upon having a late appointment one evening with her I expressed my concerns about my big frame and she told me "you're the smallest female patient I had today...and all the others were cis."  So adunno.  I still don't see it.

Quote from: AbbyDS74 on September 20, 2015, 10:58:14 PM
I believe that this is my first time seeing a picture of you. I'm not seeing any of what you're describing. Your feet are cut off in the pic, your hands are hidden, and with your arms crossed I can't really get an accurate idea of your body shape. From what I can tell, your legs are not overly muscular at all, your shoulders aren't that broad or big in any way, your waist looks fine, the weight I'm seeing is in your hips and that's not a bad thing.

I would LOVE to have some hips. It would make buying jeans SO much easier. Fortunately, I found NYDJ jeans and they fit my backside wonderfully. They are designed for women who don't have slender waists. I buy a size 8 and they fit me great. With other jeans, I have to go to a 9 or a 10 to go around my waist but then there is all that slack in the derriere. The NYDJ's sort of make me look like a teeny bopper, but hey... they fit great and I don't care how old I am or what I am "supposed" to wear for my age.

Cindi

Quote from: lemons on September 21, 2015, 11:11:23 AM
The consistent thing I keep seeing here is that everyone thinks they're way too big until taking a step back and seeing they're really not even compared to a lot of other women. This is not my experience.  I have searched and searched and searched for women bigger than me and have yet to see a single one, except one woman who likely had gigantism...and she still had a smaller head than me.

I see it standing next to other women too, all the time.  I know on average women are smaller but eve the taller ones I look noticeably bigger next to.

I did a lot of consulting during my career. One time, while waiting for a plane in Paris, I found myself amongst the USA women's basketball team waiting for the same flight. Believe me. I was a runt compared to them in every way. It felt pretty good!

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on September 21, 2015, 11:15:56 AM
I did a lot of consulting during my career. One time, while waiting for a plane in Paris, I found myself amongst the USA women's basketball team waiting for the same flight. Believe me. I was a runt compared to them in every way. It felt pretty good!

Cindi

Height doesn't bother me.  At exactly 6 feet my height is about average for a trans woman, honestly.  It's frame size.

Quote from: Miyuki on September 21, 2015, 10:37:29 AM
This may not sound like the greatest advice, but the way you accept it, is to just stop caring. Look at things objectively. Does being too big in anyway stop you from doing the things you really want to do with your life? Does it bother other people nearly as much as it bothers you? Based on what I have told you, and what everyone else here has said, do you really believe it's the reason you were having difficulty passing? If none of those things are true, then just accept that even though it might bother you to think about it, in the greater scheme of things it doesn't matter, and there's no reason it has to be something that stops you from being happy.

Yeah it kinda does.  Just simple things like being able to walk down the street in my clothes and buy groceries or whatever should be a non issue but it is....it's frustrating.  If my life could return to being mundane like that but just being seen as a woman where I go, I'd be ecstatic.  My life would have meaning again.  Without it I'm stuck as a guy and I feel trapped everywhere I go, self conscious, and wrong.

Quote from: saraht123 on September 20, 2015, 05:53:36 PM
First, I think non-passing trans women can be really beautiful anyway. Also there's a vulnerability to being this way that a cis woman wouldn't have. With a bit of confidence, it's really kind of charming. So, even if I can't ever pass, I'll be happy to get to that point.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

And lemons, I know this doesn't help but your body looks great to me.  Well within normal cis dimensions from those photos.

Quote from: lemons on September 21, 2015, 11:24:34 AM
Yeah it kinda does.  Just simple things like being able to walk down the street in my clothes and buy groceries or whatever should be a non issue but it is....it's frustrating.  If my life could return to being mundane like that but just being seen as a woman where I go, I'd be ecstatic.  My life would have meaning again.  Without it I'm stuck as a guy and I feel trapped everywhere I go, self conscious, and wrong.

Okay, but again, looking at things objectively, what are other people doing to you that makes your life so difficult? Why would you give them the power to take the meaning away from your life in the first place? If just having difficulty passing takes away all the meaning or happiness in your life, maybe you are looking for those things in the wrong places? Maybe those are things that need to come from within yourself. Maybe you are only stuck as a guy because you believe you are, and not because anything about you is keeping you that way. You know, you don't need anyone else's approval to accept yourself as a girl, and you don't need to pass to be yourself.

I hope this doesn't come across all dumb and terrible like "Hey babe, don't worry, I'll still objectify you. B)" -- bc that's really not how intend this. But lemons, I wanted to say that I've seen pictures of you a few times now (simply by virtue of occasionally perusing the MTF board) and I have always been struck by how beautiful you look. To my eyes, you're an attractive woman with a sweet face and a cute haircut. I'm sorry you have struggled so much, and that your size has been a hinderance for you. That really sucks.

I was wondering if some things may be a product of your environment, and if maybe you live in a conservative area with more rigid standards about traditional femininity? I know, again, that it's about size for you and that that often can't be captured well in pictures, but you look SO obviously female to me and SO much like many of my cis friends that I almost wonder if the problem is with other people and not you. If that makes sense.


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Quote from: lemons on September 21, 2015, 11:24:34 AM
Yeah it kinda does.  Just simple things like being able to walk down the street in my clothes and buy groceries or whatever should be a non issue but it is....it's frustrating.  If my life could return to being mundane like that but just being seen as a woman where I go, I'd be ecstatic.  My life would have meaning again.  Without it I'm stuck as a guy and I feel trapped everywhere I go, self conscious, and wrong.

Do people actually clock you? Or are you simply self conscious?

Lemons, you look like a girl in a mirror, for realz. Had I seen these pics randomly somewhere else, I would have never known that you are trans.

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Quote from: captains on September 21, 2015, 12:45:13 PM

I was wondering if some things may be a product of your environment, and if maybe you live in a conservative area with more rigid standards about traditional femininity?

I have to address this - I live in a conservative, rural area and I work in a big city.

The women where I live aren't really decked out at all. You'll find higher standards of beauty in the city.

I get more attention in the city than in my home town. Almost no one pays attention to me in my home town but in the city people look and stare. They're probably clocking me or simply looking at a woman, I can't tell, but I can tell they have more eyes on me.

Quote from: iKate on September 21, 2015, 01:13:02 PM
Do people actually clock you? Or are you simply self conscious?

I'm clocked about 90% of the time.  Maybe 70% at the very least.

I really don't know if I am clocked when I'm out in public and I really don't care.  I was warned that I was going to have issues with people confronting me when I was going out in public and I prepared myself for that.  Even though I have been on HRT for only six months, am 6'1" tall, wear size 13-14 shoes, have hands that are big enough to palm a basketball, weigh over 220 lbs and have broad shoulders I have never been confronted when out in public. 

I really do believe that we can be our own worst enemy when it comes to passing.  As so many here have alluded to, a lot of passing is confidence and attitude.  If you feel like you belong, you show you belong.  I now just go out and don't worry if I pass or not.  I have worked on my makeup skills, I dress feminine and I try to raise the pitch and tone of my voice.  I know I cannot change my height or my hand and feet sizes.  I have accepted that and I just do what I can to ignore it.  I wear high heels.  I have some that are 3-4 inches.  Those put me at the 6'4" to 6'5" range.  I have had women ask me how tall I am, not as a transgender person but as a woman.

There are certain things we can't change and we just need to accept that and not worry about it because there is nothing we can do.  Jane Lynch is 6' tall and is not built like your average supermodel.  The same with Geena Davis. 

So do your best to accept that you are a beautiful woman and embrace yourself.  Don't give other people the power to define who you are.  Own it and be proud and that will help you a lot.

This was me 6 months ago before starting HRT
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi79.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj142%2FJessie-Ann15%2Fimagejpg1_zps848d558f.jpg&hash=1a869dee7d2465a992a5a523fbaaf42912c869ac) (http://s79.photobucket.com/user/Jessie-Ann15/media/imagejpg1_zps848d558f.jpg.html) 

And this is me today in my office - 6 months HRT
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi79.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj142%2FJessie-Ann15%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F28F9A746-2228-4E2B-BC9C-1D1FC4A0D346_zps6qn2ex3y.jpg&hash=d0702d5e0475d52a53c429b21aa2a6a6c4c94c7d) (http://s79.photobucket.com/user/Jessie-Ann15/media/Mobile%20Uploads/28F9A746-2228-4E2B-BC9C-1D1FC4A0D346_zps6qn2ex3y.jpg.html)

I still have my big head, hands and feet but I am a woman and that is what I try to project.  You can too girl!  Have some confidence in yourself and you will see what a difference it makes.

Hugs to you!

Quote from: lemons on September 21, 2015, 03:24:08 PM

I'm clocked about 90% of the time.  Maybe 70% at the very least.

How do you know this? If you are tall, you might be getting looks for that, but for all you know they could be thinking 'she's pretty tall' and nothing more.

Anyway, looking at your pics, I personally know a cis lady who is well over 6 foot and looks bigger framed than you do. She's even got short hair! She doesn't have a problem passing though. No one, as far as I know, questions her gender.

I don't see anything that's going to be an insurmountable problem. We all have our hang ups, everyone here knows I do, and they can be really tough to get past. But, as I am learning, it's best to work on accepting the things you can't change, and working on the things you can change. Otherwise it's way too easy to get into a habit of tearing yourself apart. And I think if you over study something, and over scrutinise it, it'll become a bigger issue in your mind than it really is. You look way more feminine than you think you do.

I would definitely suggest growing your hair out though. :)

Quote from: Squircle on September 21, 2015, 05:59:21 PM
How do you know this? If you are tall, you might be getting looks for that, but for all you know they could be thinking 'she's pretty tall' and nothing more.

Anyway, looking at your pics, I personally know a cis lady who is well over 6 foot and looks bigger framed than you do. She's even got short hair! She doesn't have a problem passing though. No one, as far as I know, questions her gender.

I don't see anything that's going to be an insurmountable problem. We all have our hang ups, everyone here knows I do, and they can be really tough to get past. But, as I am learning, it's best to work on accepting the things you can't change, and working on the things you can change. Otherwise it's way too easy to get into a habit of tearing yourself apart. And I think if you over study something, and over scrutinise it, it'll become a bigger issue in your mind than it really is. You look way more feminine than you think you do.

I would definitely suggest growing your hair out though. :)

How?  Couple of transphobic under their breath remarks, long hard stares, and some giggling?  I'd say that's pretty surefire evidence of being clocked.  Oh, also being misgendered the majority of the time.

I'm truly sorry, I have no answers to help you. I guess I'm lucky that I can go around and really not get bad vibes or comments as far as I know. People may or my not take me as a transgender. Last week I went to Target and bought a dress and eyelashes and the cashier just smiled as usual , but then at the end of the transaction she seemed like she gave me a deep look into my eyes. I don't know if that was a clocking episode or just because she has seen me before. I like the clearance sales. I was at the hospital a month ago and a nurse asked me if I was transgender. I personally just shrug it off because I aint stopping for no one, the ship is at full steam ahead and I've got plenty of fuel.

Quote from: lemons on September 21, 2015, 09:03:43 PM
How?  Couple of transphobic under their breath remarks, long hard stares, and some giggling?  I'd say that's pretty surefire evidence of being clocked.  Oh, also being misgendered the majority of the time.

I live in a very transgender friendly area, so I haven't had to deal with too much of that kind of thing, but I have been given the long stare a few times, and it is a very uncomfortable feeling. I'm sorry stuff like that has been happening to you, but based on your pictures, which very often don't tell the whole story, I have no idea why you wouldn't be able to pass, other than the short hair. What I really don't want to do, is to tell you to go get FFS and you will pass 100%, when in reality you could pass fine without it if you just did a few things differently. If it's not too much trouble maybe you could post a video of yourself so that we could look at it and give you better advice. If you're genuinely having that much trouble passing, that people don't even gender you correctly to be polite, then there must be something going on that isn't obvious in your pictures.

Lately, I'm having a few instances where I would go to work with almost no make-up (mascara and chapstick).

What's very surprising, is am I am getting better reception from people. I even had a job interview today and no one even batted an eyelash. I think the less you try to pass, the more you pass.

Why don't you just live you life and just BE. Be a woman which you already are.

Quote from: lemons on September 21, 2015, 11:24:34 AM
Yeah it kinda does.  Just simple things like being able to walk down the street in my clothes and buy groceries or whatever should be a non issue but it is....it's frustrating.  If my life could return to being mundane like that but just being seen as a woman where I go, I'd be ecstatic.  My life would have meaning again.  Without it I'm stuck as a guy and I feel trapped everywhere I go, self conscious, and wrong.

Quote from: carmenkate on September 21, 2015, 10:22:43 PM
Lately, I'm having a few instances where I would go to work with almost no make-up (mascara and chapstick).

What's very surprising, is am I am getting better reception from people. I even had a job interview today and no one even batted an eyelash. I think the less you try to pass, the more you pass.

Why don't you just live you life and just BE. Be a woman which you already are.

I did that too, then I was left alone but gendered male all the time.

Quote from: Miyuki on September 21, 2015, 09:57:45 PM
I live in a very transgender friendly area, so I haven't had to deal with too much of that kind of thing, but I have been given the long stare a few times, and it is a very uncomfortable feeling. I'm sorry stuff like that has been happening to you, but based on your pictures, which very often don't tell the whole story, I have no idea why you wouldn't be able to pass, other than the short hair. What I really don't want to do, is to tell you to go get FFS and you will pass 100%, when in reality you could pass fine without it if you just did a few things differently. If it's not too much trouble maybe you could post a video of yourself so that we could look at it and give you better advice. If you're genuinely having that much trouble passing, that people don't even gender you correctly to be polite, then there must be something going on that isn't obvious in your pictures.

To be frank, my body is so big I doubt even FFS would help enough to pass even...60% of the time.  Which is my baseline goal.  Anything beyond that is just icing at this point.  I'be had to set the bar lower and lower in my transition to keep it realistic.  I am working with a very masculine bone frame.  It's hard to see that in the pictures but it's clear as day in person.

I can't pass without FFS. I know several people that couldn't pass without FFS. But now you can't even tell.

The reality is that humans are sexually dimorphic; males and females usually look different. And one of the areas is the face. Especially the nose and jaw.

So one of the things we use as cues as to whether someone is male or female is the face. And we have all seen a manly cis woman or feminine looking cis guy. It's all about facial proportions.

And sometimes you don't need a lot of FFS.

In my case it's mostly my nose, and a long top lip. I will not try to present myself as female without FFS (and I need lots of electrolysis). I'm not even starting HRT until I know I can get that done.

Honestly if it was only my face that was passable I'd be happy. Weird, huh? But that's where all my dysphoria lies.


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I feel there is a liiiiittle bit more leeway with my body in terms of passing.  My facial features I think can lean a little bit towards femme enough but they're also on a very large, very masculine blocky shaped face. They could be made distinctly femme on a bit of a rounder less harsh looking face shape/size with FFS, hopefully.

I'm not sure what you're hoping for here, lemons. You clearly believe you don't pass, nothing anyone says seems to be of use to you, nothing about HRT or surgery will address a large number of your issues about the "size" of your hands, head, frame, etc, etc that continues to upset you. To be honest I have no idea why people might see you as trans since your pics look perfectly fine to me (I agree with iKate about hair length, that will probably help more than you realise) - but maybe there's something going on that we just can't tell. So what can we do for you? How can we help you to help yourself?

I don't know if you've noticed on this forum that the women who go on to have successful and happy transitions are the ones that don't let the issues about their body, their appearance, their shape, size get them down. I'm sure most of them (myself included) would still give their right leg to be more petite, finer of feature and more physically female but rather than letting it get them down they get on with it, ignore the idiots and find a way to love their life and live it for all it's worth.

It's funny isn't how we feel about ourselves. Our perception of our femininity. Our angst.

Lemons, I am 170cm and 56kg.

I can 'pass' easily, if I don't - I don't care.

I am very well known in society as a transgender woman. I've been on TV and in newspapers as a transgender woman. The local store shop people have commented that they have seen me on TV as a transwoman.

You know how much they care? Not a jot.

I asked my women colleagues at work if they were concerned that I was a transgender woman. They said no. They said I am emotionally, physically and psychologically female. I am a woman, who happens to be transgender.

Lemons, so are you. But until you accept that you will struggle. You cannot change foot and hand size, I have no idea why you would want to. You look like a normal healthy woman in your pics.

But you need to accept that. If you can't accept that then you will struggle.

I suggest you contact your therapist and have some long talks about your concerns. You really need to get your head around these unfounded fears.

You are a woman, albeit a transgender woman, but a woman none the less. Sometimes we just have to accept that we will not be supermodels. We are what we are -  lovely women.

I think there has to be something besides physical features though. Voice can definitely swing the needle in either direction which is why I chose to address it first. I had dinner with a friend last night who told me that if she didn't know I was Trans she wouldn't know and it was the honest truth. The waitstaff didn't even blink when calling me miss and using feminine pronouns. That's because there is a whole package. Sure, there are a few things that are rough around the edges but voice and mannerisms tend to override those.

I go out with no makeup and jeans a lot and it doesn't pose a problem for me at all.

Quote from: iKate on September 20, 2015, 01:46:41 PM
Hi lemons,

Even though I mostly unquestionably pass, I really don't let it bother me as much when I don't. However, I am more likely to be misgendered and deadnamed by people I know. Most aren't malicious, it's just that they've grown accustomed to me.

What did kick it up a notch for me was my hair and my voice. My hair being longer and in a certain pattern with the temples filling in gets me read as female all the time. I couldn't reliably do it with short hair.

But at some point I just don't let it bother me much. I haven't been misgendered by strangers in a few months but if I was, I would simply correct them and move on. When I corrected people before they would apologize and even feel a bit embarrassed.

Let's face it, we all have varying degrees of testosterone damage. Maybe FFS is for you but do the virtual FFS first and see. Then maybe think about some body contouring to address your body issues.  How are your boobs? THat kind of helps, since standing straight I can't see my toes anymore and they definitely scream female.

Good luck!

Yeah ^^^ all of this. At this point I would say I pass 99.9999999% of the time. And the times that I don't it's usually being clocked by other queer people that have a better idea of what a trans person looks like. I've noticed that my passability has had a direct relationship to four things, having zero facial hair at this point, my long hair, my voice, and finally developing a talent for makeup and style that seems like I've been doing it my whole life. I'm not a giant, I'm 5'9" BUT it's on the tall side for a girl. Pre getting my VFS I passed about 90% of the time. Now when I can see if there's any hint of clocking in someone's glance, that as soon as I open my mouth they go, oh, nope, girl. But it takes some effort at first, and then eventually it becomes easy and natural. In fact, now that I've 'settled in' to being a woman in many ways, I feel so much comfortable in my mannerisms and speech pattern. I've realized so much of my old masculinity was constructed (I was a really effeminate kid and started to butch up when I got into middle school and started getting bullied hardcore).

ANYWAY! My advice is, focus on figuring out what of these things you're not doing, and then do them. FFS is not a magic bullet. As they said in my consultation with facial team, FFS only gets you so far, secondary characteristics will put someone over the edge on passability (eyebrows, makeup, hair, clothes, voice, etc). So before you're running out for FFS, make sure you really have those things in order.


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Right, I know I can't change my frame and hands and feet.  Lately I've found some peace in being ok enough with hands and feet and such...it's mostly my giant head and face shape and size that really bother me.  That, and just the overall thickness of my body I guess. (which weight loss didn't really help much)

What I am asking for help with is I guess is being ok with my body when I feel it is unpassable and still distinctly male looking enough.  I'm told it's an andro body by most of my friends.  It seems like most people responding here are able to pass easily and blend into society...why is it the ones who don't never speak up?  Or those who really struggled to pass in a similar situation as me and then finally were able to make it work through something?  Those are the perspectives I'm looking for I guess.  Maybe they don't exist...

Quote from: RavenMoon on September 21, 2015, 11:19:28 PM
I can't pass without FFS. I know several people that couldn't pass without FFS. But now you can't even tell.

The reality is that humans are sexually dimorphic; males and females usually look different. And one of the areas is the face. Especially the nose and jaw.

So one of the things we use as cues as to whether someone is male or female is the face. And we have all seen a manly cis woman or feminine looking cis guy. It's all about facial proportions.

And sometimes you don't need a lot of FFS.

In my case it's mostly my nose, and a long top lip. I will not try to present myself as female without FFS (and I need lots of electrolysis). I'm not even starting HRT until I know I can get that done.

Honestly if it was only my face that was passable I'd be happy. Weird, huh? But that's where all my dysphoria lies.


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I'm curious about the people who you mention couldn't pass without FFS.  Like they could barely pass at all or they could a little bit but not 100%?  Because I have been able to be correctly gendered before, but my level of passibility isn't very confident...like I don't have much confidence in my body to be able to pass...

Quote from: lemons on September 22, 2015, 10:40:38 AM
Right, I know I can't change my frame and hands and feet.  Lately I've found some peace in being ok enough with hands and feet and such...it's mostly my giant head and face shape and size that really bother me.  That, and just the overall thickness of my body I guess. (which weight loss didn't really help much)

What I am asking for help with is I guess is being ok with my body when I feel it is unpassable and still distinctly male looking enough.  I'm told it's an andro body by most of my friends.  It seems like most people responding here are able to pass easily and blend into society...why is it the ones who don't never speak up?  Or those who really struggled to pass in a similar situation as me and then finally were able to make it work through something?  Those are the perspectives I'm looking for I guess.  Maybe they don't exist...

Well, Lemons, I present as half man/half woman. There is no "passing" for me because I don't fit either box. But I get acceptance and go about my business. That's all we can really ask for in life.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I feel like most people going into FFS can pass most of the time and are just going in for touch ups or something to be completely passable or stealth...

Am I wrong?  OR are there cases where trans women were barely passable at all and after FFS could pass most of the time at least?

Quote from: lemons on September 22, 2015, 11:06:07 AM
I feel like most people going into FFS can pass most of the time and are just going in for touch ups or something to be completely passable or stealth...

My reason for FFS would be to go somewhat stealth, which is why I'm debating it. But I don't think that is universal. I have seen a number of people in the FFS forum who were "unpassable" who had FFS and looked gorgeous.

Quote
Am I wrong?  OR are there cases where trans women were barely passable at all and after FFS could pass most of the time at least?

Caitlyn Jenner?

Quote from: iKate on September 22, 2015, 11:13:19 AM
My reason for FFS would be to go somewhat stealth, which is why I'm debating it. But I don't think that is universal. I have seen a number of people in the FFS forum who were "unpassable" who had FFS and looked gorgeous.

Caitlyn Jenner?

Yes, I do think of her.  Though her degree of passibility is somewhat on the fence...she is still very large framed if you've seen her in group photos.  Eh.  But yes, her fcae undoubtedly looks female now and it was big and bulky and male looking before even with long hair...so I guess that gives me some hope...I'd still rather be a bigger woman than look unpassable even with long hair which is where I'm at right now...

Although when you think about it, Caitlyn Jenner's biggest problem with passability is that she is currently the most well known and publicly visible transgender person on the planet. Anyone who recognizes her is going to know she is trans. But she still seems to be doing pretty well, considering...

Quote from: Miyuki on September 22, 2015, 01:03:02 PM
Although when you think about it, Caitlyn Jenner's biggest problem with passability is that she is currently the most well known and publicly visible transgender person on the planet. Anyone who recognizes her is going to know she is trans. But she still seems to be doing pretty well, considering...

she's doing great, the only thing is she will always be the Olympian.

Quote from: lemons on September 22, 2015, 11:06:07 AM
I feel like most people going into FFS can pass most of the time and are just going in for touch ups or something to be completely passable or stealth...

Am I wrong?  OR are there cases where trans women were barely passable at all and after FFS could pass most of the time at least?

I couldn't really tell you how much I passed before FFS, I'm sure I did at least some of the time but I also used to get those long confused states from some people. Being smaller definitely helped in everyday life but I think if someone saw my face in the wrong light they'd definitely have seen the masculinity of it.  My surgery was a combination of subtle tweaks, often that's all it takes, and nowadays I don't have any problems other than my own confidence. I've never seen your face clearly so can't comment too much but it didn't look masculinr from what I remember. Remember you can get a virtual FFS done, where you send off your pics and a lady basically adjusts them to give you an idea of what you might look like.
My before and after photos are here : http://facialfeminization.eu/portfolio/amelie/

It's worth noting that these before shots are really unforgiving, and that my face carried on improving way after the post op pics were taken through a combination of 'settling in' and hormone effects.

There was an army major here in the uk who transitioned and had pretty extreme FFS, and the difference was remarkable. I do think though that she was a whole lot more masculine than you are, and that you wouldn't need to go to those extremes.

As far as dealing with it all, getting over things you can't fix, I wish I knew the answer, I think it's something that needs building over time, there's no quick fix. Get the things you can change looking as good as possible, and try and improve your confidence bit by bit. It's so hard I know.

Ah those troubling stares ... get them every single day! Yep, I can't remember taking the metro and not being thoroughly scanned by at least one person. I'm on my sixth month of HRT and although I have sizeable breasts, a quite passable body, there's this big nugget sitting on my shoulders that (literally) casts a shadow on my passability. Big nose, long chin, deep set eyes, I've got them all!

Of course there are days when it makes me a little (read: really!) depressed. Assuming ones inner and outer selves is far from being easy and often requires so much energy. But, and here comes the cheesy part, then I remember why I did this and all the words of support from friends, family, and colleagues ("no no really, you look good!") which brings a smile. And voilà! Suddenly all those stares are converted to reciprocal smiles! Apparently, happiness is contagious and is not tributary of our appearance!

I could go on about how the emotions you project influence others perception of oneself, but you know all of that already. However I urge you to try the "smiling" thing. It's good for you, it's good for others, and it might remedy the need for costly surgeries!

Regards,

Martine


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Squircle- I tried Virtual FFS and my results in the afters were very uncanny and I still didn't really look like much of a woman.  I'm interested in this UK army major...were they built big too?  Did they have a big head that was very square shaped and all that?

Martine- When you say big nugget obviously you mean head, I remember in a previous thread you said your head was bigger than mine. (mine's 60 cm around) It's often the biggest thing that stands out to me on my body, as while from the neck down my body isn't perfect, I think it may be passable enough.

Additionally, I went to the local trans support group last night and I have two people in there who go and I stay in touch with.  Well, they were both there, and I know at least one of them is a fairly honest individual who doesn't bullsh*t.  Both of them said I looked more cis than trans, as well as another person I know saying that when they met me (another trans woman who doesn't bullsh*t either).  One said that they wouldn't have been able to clock me I look feminine enough, which I can't see at all, but I don't think she was lying.  I felt like the biggest person in the room, I often always do, but they both said my size wasn't an issue.  I've heard this from enough people who I feel are honest enough on the whole...enough trans women who have met me in person have said it...so maybe this really is all in my head...

Quote from: Miyuki on September 22, 2015, 01:03:02 PM
Although when you think about it, Caitlyn Jenner's biggest problem with passability is that she is currently the most well known and publicly visible transgender person on the planet. Anyone who recognizes her is going to know she is trans. But she still seems to be doing pretty well, considering...

That plus her voice.

Her name was Jan Hamilton, I believe she has changed it now to live in peace. The press were a bit less sympathetic back then (only a few years ago). Do a google image search for her, and you'll see before and afters. I don't know how well she passes in person but regardless, her starting point facially was about as masculine as they come. She was, before transition, 6ft and 16 stone. She is a bit of a hero actually because the struggles she went through with the army paved the way for people to be allowed to transition whilst in service.

At the end of the day the virtual FFS is just a guide. I think at the moment you are seeing a defeat in everything, which is an easy thing to slip into. Listen to those people at the support group, they have far more to go off than any of us and they are saying you pass. Like I say I only vaguely remember your pics but I certainly remember thinking you'd be OK.

It's surprising how big a deal things can be in your head when they aren't really anywhere near as big a problem as you think. I know this from my own struggles with my feet. And I know if I start to focus on little things it can get out of hand quickly. It's worse when I'm tired, or feeling a little low generally. But the truth is I've been in all sorts of situations over the last few months and no-one has misgendered me, or said anything to me, or even looked at me funny. It's all just in my head.

The other thing to consider is this; people stare at other people all the time, for all sorts of reasons. Back when I was living as a man, it had to be really blatant for me to notice. But when I started transitioning I became hyper aware of whether people were looking at me or not, so in my head, all of a sudden I was drawing stares. Most of the time, they probably just looked at me, then I reacted in an odd way such as staring at the ground or trying to hide my face, so they carried on looking.

The other thing you have to consider is that men, especially, love to stare at women.

They don't stare at men because of homophobia, unless it's a gay guy staring at guys.

I notice a lot of men stare at me, some smile, so me say hello, some say other things, some of which I cannot repeat here. Never anything transphobic. So I can only reasonably conclude that they are staring at me because I register with them as a woman.

In Korea everyone stared at me and my (cisgender) mom, because we are dark skinned foreigners and stick out like a sore thumb. That's all it was, period.

Found pictures of Jan Hamilton...yes her facial structure was more masculine than mine, but her head and face size and shape isn't...she had quite a small/normal sized head for a woman. I can't imagine she has problems passing now, she looks really good.

Jan Hamilton was much more masculine looking all round than you are, and she transitioned successfully. You keep convincing yourself that you have some major problem that no one else has that will stop you from ever passing.

I went back through this thread to look at the photos you posted. Your head doesn't look big, or square.

So, I have been following your posts too. And I think you're the perfect case to share my brutal honesty with.

First of all, about your head. Your head circumference its not so unusual or big, mine is almost 60 cm too and I'm shorter than you (5'7'') and I'm an M size on women's cycling helmets (just check sizing in brands like Specialized for helmets, 60cm its not even an L women size).

It's true you could benefit from FFS, specially from Jaw/Chin reduction. Its true that while not masculine in shape your jaw may be a little on the big side for a girl and this can be masculinizing to some extent and making your head look a little more big.

But the overall head size its not masculine. In fact, a big head is an usual trait of neoteny (just like a childs head, it is proportionally bigger). Neoteny and femininty go hand in hand (the most neotenic a female adult looks the most attractive is perceived by adult males, just science).

About the rest of your face, it looks pretty ok to me. You got little to no brow bossing, a low bridged nose (its not small but looks feminine) and a head full of hair.

Now, about your frame. Yeah, you don't have one of those ultra petite asian-like body frames, but I think is pretty within the female ranges. Moreover, you don't look muscular at all, not even toned. If I were you, I would give a try to lose some weight (not much, you're not overweight). A very skinny girl will always look andro (sometimes less is more), so you don't have to worry about having large boobs or a big booty (and those can be solved by surgery) while you can benefit from looking a little more petite overall. I don't know whats your BMI rite now, but I guess you could try to be around 18-19 and see how you look.

And now, about your presentation. Well, your presentation is... to put it politely, not the best one . I understand you when you say you're too feminine and shy on the inside that you don't want to overdo it an look fake. Ok, I get that, happened to me, but... that should not prevent you from improving. Why don't you try making baby steps? Just a little at a time? It's not about going from butch to hyper-girly on a day, but about making little steps. Lots of cis girls would have trouble passing putting the same effort as you on their presentation. Hon, we all think you can do it *A LOT* better without overdoing nor going very girly.

As a sidenote if you're thinking of growing your hair (which will be really nice) then please straighten it. Lack of volume can benefit you and it will turn the hair more malleable. Keratin and such, give it a try.

Also as a sidenote, I remember the pic with your girlfriend you posted and well... lemme say you look *WAY MORE* passable than her.

That said.

In general, I'm about as feminine as a smashed crab.. My measurements are all over the scale.. But guess what? I actually have very few issues passing - partly because I simply don't give a hoot and partly because people don't wander around looking at 'measurements' - only other trans women will do that.

Part of the reason you don't pass is that you don't believe you do, it's really that simple. OK, longer hair and some neater brows wouldn't go astray, but if your attitude is off, you might as well tattoo it across your forehead. Relax, take a chill pill and just enjoy being the woman you are. If you can do that, you'll find you pass way more than you do now.

I knew when I transitioned some 23 years ago now that I wasn't going to be anymore than a 6 foot tall, plain faced, flat chested, long limbed kind of woman.  I used to be a heavy truck mechanic so while I was lean and wiry I did have some serious muscle in my arms and shoulders, though HRT has taken most of that away over the years.  I take a women's size 11 in shoes so my feet are about average for a TG person and my hands aren't so much large as long.
I identify as non-binary so I don't particularly go for frilly girly things and much prefer jeans and boots, a Tee shirt and a hoodie top as my usual everyday clothing.  I don't wear make up or pluck my eyebrows, but I do have a weakness for feather earrings though.  Despite that I still get addressed in femme terms whenever I'm out and about and most of that has to do with being completely comfortable inside my own skin.
The biggest thing I found in helping me to male-fail was having electrolysis done so I don't have any facial hair.  I've always worn my hair long too, though these days it's mostly pulled back into a high ponytail.  I had an orchie done around 19 years ago and that made a big difference to my body's natural scent so I smell female.

I'm completely with Kelly by the way.  If you believe in yourself and are comfortable in your own skin you will 'pass' (whatever that is) better than you do now.  Basically I don't give a fig what anybody thinks of me because this is the person that I am and I'm not going to live a faux life for no-one no matter who they are.

By the way I live in a rural dairy farming district and there are women of Norwegian and Dutch descent here who are bigger and taller than I am and nobody ever tries telling them that they aren't women ;)

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 23, 2015, 06:45:59 PM
Part of the reason you don't pass is that you don't believe you do, it's really that simple ... if your attitude is off, you might as well tattoo it across your forehead.

Quite correct.

Clever camera angles aside, I do not pass. But I do not spend my hours and days dwelling on it.

I get on with life and have a friendly, positive attitude. My personality is quite femme. While I am obviously trans - I am also obviously in harmony with my identity. This is what people respond to - the way I am. Not how I look.

And as I like to say so often, this isn't even trans specific. I don't identify other people by their appearance, either. I am far more interested in who somebody is.

Of course, I will misread people as well. The only way to see a person's true identity is to *get to know them*. Everything else is idealised preconception.

Hi Lemons,

Noticed some of your posts before. I have kind of taken a bit of an interest because your concerns are pretty much exactly what mine would be about going on HRT and I see some similarities in our body types. I'm 26 and realised a year ago I'm probably trans and now I'm trying to figure out what to do about it. My head is 61cm. Similar to what you have said about yourself, in a photo or out of context my face could actually look reasonably feminine and with some minor FFS I think could maybe even look good. But that's in a photo. Everything about my head and facial features is on the large scale. People always tell me I have a big head, and that's as a guy. So I sympathise with you even though for me its only a theoretical obstacle at this point. Firstly, from your pictures, I don't think you have anything to worry about frame wise. I know its hard to hear that when you know a picture might be misleading but that is my opinion. You have hips and very female looking proportions to me. You definitely have it better than I would. My feet are mens UK 12 so 13 in US and God knows what in female-specially made probably! But mainly my problem is my head size and my pelvis. I have a huge pelvis but narrow hips. I don't have a waist and couldn't ever because above the legs I'm basically just bone all the way up to my head. The worst thing is I'm only 6ft. Everything is bigger than it should be.

Ok so I hope other people don't jump down my neck here, but I can see what you mean about your head. It seems almost identical in shape to mine. That isn't me saying it should be an obstacle to you passing though. I just sympathise with your concerns. In those photos you definitely read as female. Some women do have big heads and its kind of ironic that I get mine from my Mum. Like others said growing your hair could potentially really help. As someone said above it's pretty common to misgender a cis female if they have a short masculine looking haircut. I get what you mean about feeling awkward if you still don't feel you pass but its worth at least trying because if it does work then that seems like it could really help you out with the way you feel about yourself.

Hope you don't mind me asking, but are you still glad you transitioned? I'm really trying to figure out what to do and I have trouble knowing whether the struggle would be worth throwing away the security I have now. I don't think I'd really pass, but I'm hopeful maybe my emotional state might be improved because right now I'm completely conflicted about who I am. I also do think the best thing you can do is stop caring about what others think about you. It's kind of cruel that that in turn also helps with passability, which I think it does. I'm a little concerned I couldn't handle transitioning. I admire people who don't care about what others are thinking about them but that is just not me and I get that being told to try that can be a little frustrating. Its like ok hang on I'll just go and re-wire my whole personality. But good luck getting there I'm sure people will say it's a process. And none of this is to say you don't pass already, because like I said in those photos you read female to me.

Quote from: Zoetrope on September 23, 2015, 09:03:21 PM

Quite correct.

Clever camera angles aside, I do not pass. But I do not spend my hours and days dwelling on it.

I get on with life and have a friendly, positive attitude. My personality is quite femme. While I am obviously trans - I am also obviously in harmony with my identity. This is what people respond to - the way I am. Not how I look.

And as I like to say so often, this isn't even trans specific. I don't identify other people by their appearance, either. I am far more interested in who somebody is.

Of course, I will misread people as well. The only way to see a person's true identity is to *get to know them*. Everything else is idealised preconception.

+1 for that!  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: orangejuice on September 24, 2015, 11:57:13 AM
Stuff.

I'm also 6 feet and very large boned.  It sounds like we have very similar body types.  Even though fat and such has redistributed and I've shed all my muscle so I look a tad more femme, I still look too big out in the world because my bone structure makes everything much larger than it would be on a regular 6ft tall woman.

I had a feeling I wasn't alone in this.  I can't imagine I'll ever be able to pass from behind because of how big my head reads as male.  It's only happened twice.

Hope you didn't misunderstand me. In your pics you completely look female. I just understand why you have concerns about your head and in the side on picture in particular I see similarities to my own skull shape. But women can have big heads, and yours doesn't stand out as any kind of obstacle to passing because I think the rest of you looks 100% female. You've also got good hair.  I kissed goodbye to my nice thick hair at 18 and in the last 6 months I've probably reached the point it wouldn't be salvageable and I'd need a wig, which denies me a pretty large tool when it comes to 'passability'. Honestly, I can only see where you're coming from with your head and like I said you still read female. I think you're wrong about your frame, it looks pretty female to me and I'd easily swap yours for mine.

Quote from: lemons on September 24, 2015, 05:07:39 PM
I'm also 6 feet and very large boned.  It sounds like we have very similar body types.  Even though fat and such has redistributed and I've shed all my muscle so I look a tad more femme, I still look too big out in the world because my bone structure makes everything much larger than it would be on a regular 6ft tall woman.

I had a feeling I wasn't alone in this.  I can't imagine I'll ever be able to pass from behind because of how big my head reads as male.  It's only happened twice.

I know everyone is essentially going to tell you about perspective, from their experience to general advice about how all women come in different shapes and sizes. I've met many cis women taller than me, while I'm a bit under 5'10" I used to think along the same lines you have stated.
But here's my question, who are you transitioning for?
At the end of the day, you can't help being who you are. Part of the female condition is having things about your body that make you insecure and emphasizing your strengths with your fashion choices.
Forgive me for saying this, but if life gave you lemons, what are you going to do about it?
Hint: the answer is make some fraking lemonade! ;-)


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: lemons on September 23, 2015, 02:42:50 PM
Squircle- I tried Virtual FFS and my results in the afters were very uncanny and I still didn't really look like much of a woman.  I'm interested in this UK army major...were they built big too?  Did they have a big head that was very square shaped and all that?

Martine- When you say big nugget obviously you mean head, I remember in a previous thread you said your head was bigger than mine. (mine's 60 cm around) It's often the biggest thing that stands out to me on my body, as while from the neck down my body isn't perfect, I think it may be passable enough.

Additionally, I went to the local trans support group last night and I have two people in there who go and I stay in touch with.  Well, they were both there, and I know at least one of them is a fairly honest individual who doesn't bullsh*t.  Both of them said I looked more cis than trans, as well as another person I know saying that when they met me (another trans woman who doesn't bullsh*t either).  One said that they wouldn't have been able to clock me I look feminine enough, which I can't see at all, but I don't think she was lying.  I felt like the biggest person in the room, I often always do, but they both said my size wasn't an issue.  I've heard this from enough people who I feel are honest enough on the whole...enough trans women who have met me in person have said it...so maybe this really is all in my head...

My body is as cis as you can get for being a trans woman who started hrt at 21, wide hips, small frame etc but for whatever reason I still feel big. I'm still sub conscience of my wide shoulders, even though it's perfectly within the female range. I mean my whole body and face is but I can't shake this feeling of being big. I sometimes wish I was shorter and more petite than I already am. I know it's all in my head, I guess that's the worst part is knowing and still seeing myself this way. Something new I discovered this year was that having a partner helped so much with this issue, especially if they're dominant. So like the only times I find myself feeling small is when I'm in the arms of a lover or wearing something cute and flattering, by flattering I mean minimizing my shoulders. I know eventually I'll get past this though. I think the reason why I feel this way is cause of the weight lifting I used to do and well the obvious one, being exposed to testosterone for so long. My hair, which is big and curly helps cover my shoulders and makes me look smaller. I'm not sure what your hair looks like but if its short try growing it out. Longer hair softens your facial features by a lot.

Hi Lemons

   I've looked at your pictures and you don't look like anything but a woman to me and honestly your hands, feet, shoulders and head don't look to big for a woman in fact I think you pass as good as or better then a lot of girls on this site which is saying something as there are a lot of stunners on here. 

    I was friends with the tallest girl I have ever known (around 6 foot 9 inches) in high school and when you looked at her next to the tallest guy in school she easily dwarfed him as her shoulders were wider and her hands and feet were bigger but not once did she ever come off as anything other then a girl so don't let your size depress you into thinking you could never pass because you can.