Lack of Passability after years of HRT...what can I do?

[Jessie Ann]

I really don't know if I am clocked when I'm out in public and I really don't care.  I was warned that I was going to have issues with people confronting me when I was going out in public and I prepared myself for that.  Even though I have been on HRT for only six months, am 6'1" tall, wear size 13-14 shoes, have hands that are big enough to palm a basketball, weigh over 220 lbs and have broad shoulders I have never been confronted when out in public. 

I really do believe that we can be our own worst enemy when it comes to passing.  As so many here have alluded to, a lot of passing is confidence and attitude.  If you feel like you belong, you show you belong.  I now just go out and don't worry if I pass or not.  I have worked on my makeup skills, I dress feminine and I try to raise the pitch and tone of my voice.  I know I cannot change my height or my hand and feet sizes.  I have accepted that and I just do what I can to ignore it.  I wear high heels.  I have some that are 3-4 inches.  Those put me at the 6'4" to 6'5" range.  I have had women ask me how tall I am, not as a transgender person but as a woman.

There are certain things we can't change and we just need to accept that and not worry about it because there is nothing we can do.  Jane Lynch is 6' tall and is not built like your average supermodel.  The same with Geena Davis. 

So do your best to accept that you are a beautiful woman and embrace yourself.  Don't give other people the power to define who you are.  Own it and be proud and that will help you a lot.

This was me 6 months ago before starting HRT
 

And this is me today in my office - 6 months HRT


I still have my big head, hands and feet but I am a woman and that is what I try to project.  You can too girl!  Have some confidence in yourself and you will see what a difference it makes.

Hugs to you!

[Squircle]

I'm clocked about 90% of the time.  Maybe 70% at the very least.

How do you know this? If you are tall, you might be getting looks for that, but for all you know they could be thinking 'she's pretty tall' and nothing more.

Anyway, looking at your pics, I personally know a cis lady who is well over 6 foot and looks bigger framed than you do. She's even got short hair! She doesn't have a problem passing though. No one, as far as I know, questions her gender.

I don't see anything that's going to be an insurmountable problem. We all have our hang ups, everyone here knows I do, and they can be really tough to get past. But, as I am learning, it's best to work on accepting the things you can't change, and working on the things you can change. Otherwise it's way too easy to get into a habit of tearing yourself apart. And I think if you over study something, and over scrutinise it, it'll become a bigger issue in your mind than it really is. You look way more feminine than you think you do.

I would definitely suggest growing your hair out though.

[lemons]

How do you know this? If you are tall, you might be getting looks for that, but for all you know they could be thinking 'she's pretty tall' and nothing more.

Anyway, looking at your pics, I personally know a cis lady who is well over 6 foot and looks bigger framed than you do. She's even got short hair! She doesn't have a problem passing though. No one, as far as I know, questions her gender.

I don't see anything that's going to be an insurmountable problem. We all have our hang ups, everyone here knows I do, and they can be really tough to get past. But, as I am learning, it's best to work on accepting the things you can't change, and working on the things you can change. Otherwise it's way too easy to get into a habit of tearing yourself apart. And I think if you over study something, and over scrutinise it, it'll become a bigger issue in your mind than it really is. You look way more feminine than you think you do.

I would definitely suggest growing your hair out though.

How?  Couple of transphobic under their breath remarks, long hard stares, and some giggling?  I'd say that's pretty surefire evidence of being clocked.  Oh, also being misgendered the majority of the time.

[stephaniec]

I'm truly sorry, I have no answers to help you. I guess I'm lucky that I can go around and really not get bad vibes or comments as far as I know. People may or my not take me as a transgender. Last week I went to Target and bought a dress and eyelashes and the cashier just smiled as usual , but then at the end of the transaction she seemed like she gave me a deep look into my eyes. I don't know if that was a clocking episode or just because she has seen me before. I like the clearance sales. I was at the hospital a month ago and a nurse asked me if I was transgender. I personally just shrug it off because I aint stopping for no one, the ship is at full steam ahead and I've got plenty of fuel.

[Miyuki]

How?  Couple of transphobic under their breath remarks, long hard stares, and some giggling?  I'd say that's pretty surefire evidence of being clocked.  Oh, also being misgendered the majority of the time.

I live in a very transgender friendly area, so I haven't had to deal with too much of that kind of thing, but I have been given the long stare a few times, and it is a very uncomfortable feeling. I'm sorry stuff like that has been happening to you, but based on your pictures, which very often don't tell the whole story, I have no idea why you wouldn't be able to pass, other than the short hair. What I really don't want to do, is to tell you to go get FFS and you will pass 100%, when in reality you could pass fine without it if you just did a few things differently. If it's not too much trouble maybe you could post a video of yourself so that we could look at it and give you better advice. If you're genuinely having that much trouble passing, that people don't even gender you correctly to be polite, then there must be something going on that isn't obvious in your pictures.

[April_TO]

Lately, I'm having a few instances where I would go to work with almost no make-up (mascara and chapstick).

What's very surprising, is am I am getting better reception from people. I even had a job interview today and no one even batted an eyelash. I think the less you try to pass, the more you pass.

Why don't you just live you life and just BE. Be a woman which you already are.

Yeah it kinda does.  Just simple things like being able to walk down the street in my clothes and buy groceries or whatever should be a non issue but it is....it's frustrating.  If my life could return to being mundane like that but just being seen as a woman where I go, I'd be ecstatic.  My life would have meaning again.  Without it I'm stuck as a guy and I feel trapped everywhere I go, self conscious, and wrong.

[lemons]

Lately, I'm having a few instances where I would go to work with almost no make-up (mascara and chapstick).

What's very surprising, is am I am getting better reception from people. I even had a job interview today and no one even batted an eyelash. I think the less you try to pass, the more you pass.

Why don't you just live you life and just BE. Be a woman which you already are.

I did that too, then I was left alone but gendered male all the time.

I live in a very transgender friendly area, so I haven't had to deal with too much of that kind of thing, but I have been given the long stare a few times, and it is a very uncomfortable feeling. I'm sorry stuff like that has been happening to you, but based on your pictures, which very often don't tell the whole story, I have no idea why you wouldn't be able to pass, other than the short hair. What I really don't want to do, is to tell you to go get FFS and you will pass 100%, when in reality you could pass fine without it if you just did a few things differently. If it's not too much trouble maybe you could post a video of yourself so that we could look at it and give you better advice. If you're genuinely having that much trouble passing, that people don't even gender you correctly to be polite, then there must be something going on that isn't obvious in your pictures.

To be frank, my body is so big I doubt even FFS would help enough to pass even...60% of the time.  Which is my baseline goal.  Anything beyond that is just icing at this point.  I'be had to set the bar lower and lower in my transition to keep it realistic.  I am working with a very masculine bone frame.  It's hard to see that in the pictures but it's clear as day in person.

[RavenMoon]

I can't pass without FFS. I know several people that couldn't pass without FFS. But now you can't even tell.

The reality is that humans are sexually dimorphic; males and females usually look different. And one of the areas is the face. Especially the nose and jaw.

So one of the things we use as cues as to whether someone is male or female is the face. And we have all seen a manly cis woman or feminine looking cis guy. It's all about facial proportions.

And sometimes you don't need a lot of FFS.

In my case it's mostly my nose, and a long top lip. I will not try to present myself as female without FFS (and I need lots of electrolysis). I'm not even starting HRT until I know I can get that done.

Honestly if it was only my face that was passable I'd be happy. Weird, huh? But that's where all my dysphoria lies.


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[lemons]

I feel there is a liiiiittle bit more leeway with my body in terms of passing.  My facial features I think can lean a little bit towards femme enough but they're also on a very large, very masculine blocky shaped face. They could be made distinctly femme on a bit of a rounder less harsh looking face shape/size with FFS, hopefully.

[Ms Grace]

I'm not sure what you're hoping for here, lemons. You clearly believe you don't pass, nothing anyone says seems to be of use to you, nothing about HRT or surgery will address a large number of your issues about the "size" of your hands, head, frame, etc, etc that continues to upset you. To be honest I have no idea why people might see you as trans since your pics look perfectly fine to me (I agree with iKate about hair length, that will probably help more than you realise) - but maybe there's something going on that we just can't tell. So what can we do for you? How can we help you to help yourself?

I don't know if you've noticed on this forum that the women who go on to have successful and happy transitions are the ones that don't let the issues about their body, their appearance, their shape, size get them down. I'm sure most of them (myself included) would still give their right leg to be more petite, finer of feature and more physically female but rather than letting it get them down they get on with it, ignore the idiots and find a way to love their life and live it for all it's worth.

[Cindy]

It's funny isn't how we feel about ourselves. Our perception of our femininity. Our angst.

Lemons, I am 170cm and 56kg.

I can 'pass' easily, if I don't - I don't care.

I am very well known in society as a transgender woman. I've been on TV and in newspapers as a transgender woman. The local store shop people have commented that they have seen me on TV as a transwoman.

You know how much they care? Not a jot.

I asked my women colleagues at work if they were concerned that I was a transgender woman. They said no. They said I am emotionally, physically and psychologically female. I am a woman, who happens to be transgender.

Lemons, so are you. But until you accept that you will struggle. You cannot change foot and hand size, I have no idea why you would want to. You look like a normal healthy woman in your pics.

But you need to accept that. If you can't accept that then you will struggle.

I suggest you contact your therapist and have some long talks about your concerns. You really need to get your head around these unfounded fears.

You are a woman, albeit a transgender woman, but a woman none the less. Sometimes we just have to accept that we will not be supermodels. We are what we are -  lovely women.

[iKate]

I think there has to be something besides physical features though. Voice can definitely swing the needle in either direction which is why I chose to address it first. I had dinner with a friend last night who told me that if she didn't know I was Trans she wouldn't know and it was the honest truth. The waitstaff didn't even blink when calling me miss and using feminine pronouns. That's because there is a whole package. Sure, there are a few things that are rough around the edges but voice and mannerisms tend to override those.

I go out with no makeup and jeans a lot and it doesn't pose a problem for me at all.

[Dana88]

Hi lemons,

Even though I mostly unquestionably pass, I really don't let it bother me as much when I don't. However, I am more likely to be misgendered and deadnamed by people I know. Most aren't malicious, it's just that they've grown accustomed to me.

What did kick it up a notch for me was my hair and my voice. My hair being longer and in a certain pattern with the temples filling in gets me read as female all the time. I couldn't reliably do it with short hair.

But at some point I just don't let it bother me much. I haven't been misgendered by strangers in a few months but if I was, I would simply correct them and move on. When I corrected people before they would apologize and even feel a bit embarrassed.

Let's face it, we all have varying degrees of testosterone damage. Maybe FFS is for you but do the virtual FFS first and see. Then maybe think about some body contouring to address your body issues.  How are your boobs? THat kind of helps, since standing straight I can't see my toes anymore and they definitely scream female.

Good luck!

Yeah ^^^ all of this. At this point I would say I pass 99.9999999% of the time. And the times that I don't it's usually being clocked by other queer people that have a better idea of what a trans person looks like. I've noticed that my passability has had a direct relationship to four things, having zero facial hair at this point, my long hair, my voice, and finally developing a talent for makeup and style that seems like I've been doing it my whole life. I'm not a giant, I'm 5'9" BUT it's on the tall side for a girl. Pre getting my VFS I passed about 90% of the time. Now when I can see if there's any hint of clocking in someone's glance, that as soon as I open my mouth they go, oh, nope, girl. But it takes some effort at first, and then eventually it becomes easy and natural. In fact, now that I've 'settled in' to being a woman in many ways, I feel so much comfortable in my mannerisms and speech pattern. I've realized so much of my old masculinity was constructed (I was a really effeminate kid and started to butch up when I got into middle school and started getting bullied hardcore).

ANYWAY! My advice is, focus on figuring out what of these things you're not doing, and then do them. FFS is not a magic bullet. As they said in my consultation with facial team, FFS only gets you so far, secondary characteristics will put someone over the edge on passability (eyebrows, makeup, hair, clothes, voice, etc). So before you're running out for FFS, make sure you really have those things in order.


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[lemons]

Right, I know I can't change my frame and hands and feet.  Lately I've found some peace in being ok enough with hands and feet and such...it's mostly my giant head and face shape and size that really bother me.  That, and just the overall thickness of my body I guess. (which weight loss didn't really help much)

What I am asking for help with is I guess is being ok with my body when I feel it is unpassable and still distinctly male looking enough.  I'm told it's an andro body by most of my friends.  It seems like most people responding here are able to pass easily and blend into society...why is it the ones who don't never speak up?  Or those who really struggled to pass in a similar situation as me and then finally were able to make it work through something?  Those are the perspectives I'm looking for I guess.  Maybe they don't exist...

[lemons]

I can't pass without FFS. I know several people that couldn't pass without FFS. But now you can't even tell.

The reality is that humans are sexually dimorphic; males and females usually look different. And one of the areas is the face. Especially the nose and jaw.

So one of the things we use as cues as to whether someone is male or female is the face. And we have all seen a manly cis woman or feminine looking cis guy. It's all about facial proportions.

And sometimes you don't need a lot of FFS.

In my case it's mostly my nose, and a long top lip. I will not try to present myself as female without FFS (and I need lots of electrolysis). I'm not even starting HRT until I know I can get that done.

Honestly if it was only my face that was passable I'd be happy. Weird, huh? But that's where all my dysphoria lies.


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I'm curious about the people who you mention couldn't pass without FFS.  Like they could barely pass at all or they could a little bit but not 100%?  Because I have been able to be correctly gendered before, but my level of passibility isn't very confident...like I don't have much confidence in my body to be able to pass...

[Devlyn]

Right, I know I can't change my frame and hands and feet.  Lately I've found some peace in being ok enough with hands and feet and such...it's mostly my giant head and face shape and size that really bother me.  That, and just the overall thickness of my body I guess. (which weight loss didn't really help much)

What I am asking for help with is I guess is being ok with my body when I feel it is unpassable and still distinctly male looking enough.  I'm told it's an andro body by most of my friends.  It seems like most people responding here are able to pass easily and blend into society...why is it the ones who don't never speak up?  Or those who really struggled to pass in a similar situation as me and then finally were able to make it work through something?  Those are the perspectives I'm looking for I guess.  Maybe they don't exist...

Well, Lemons, I present as half man/half woman. There is no "passing" for me because I don't fit either box. But I get acceptance and go about my business. That's all we can really ask for in life. 

Hugs, Devlyn

[lemons]

I feel like most people going into FFS can pass most of the time and are just going in for touch ups or something to be completely passable or stealth...

Am I wrong?  OR are there cases where trans women were barely passable at all and after FFS could pass most of the time at least?

[iKate]

I feel like most people going into FFS can pass most of the time and are just going in for touch ups or something to be completely passable or stealth...

My reason for FFS would be to go somewhat stealth, which is why I'm debating it. But I don't think that is universal. I have seen a number of people in the FFS forum who were "unpassable" who had FFS and looked gorgeous.

Am I wrong?  OR are there cases where trans women were barely passable at all and after FFS could pass most of the time at least?

Caitlyn Jenner?

[lemons]

My reason for FFS would be to go somewhat stealth, which is why I'm debating it. But I don't think that is universal. I have seen a number of people in the FFS forum who were "unpassable" who had FFS and looked gorgeous.

Caitlyn Jenner?

Yes, I do think of her.  Though her degree of passibility is somewhat on the fence...she is still very large framed if you've seen her in group photos.  Eh.  But yes, her fcae undoubtedly looks female now and it was big and bulky and male looking before even with long hair...so I guess that gives me some hope...I'd still rather be a bigger woman than look unpassable even with long hair which is where I'm at right now...

[Miyuki]

Although when you think about it, Caitlyn Jenner's biggest problem with passability is that she is currently the most well known and publicly visible transgender person on the planet. Anyone who recognizes her is going to know she is trans. But she still seems to be doing pretty well, considering...