Hey y'all, I have a quick question for you guys. I recently went to a really nice hat shop in San Francisco and noticed the guy who attended to me was trans. It wasn't that he didn't pass, it was little things that I only notice because I'm trans and know what guys look like with binders and sound like after being on T for a while.
So here's my dilemma: I wanted to be friendly and ask him about trans stuff, mostly because he was about the same age as me, but didn't want to ruin his day by clocking him. So I'll refer to the question in the subject of this thread, are y'all comfortable talking openly about trans stuff? How would you prefer someone like myself bring up trans stuff to you? Would you prefer a random stranger not do so? I'm relatively friendly, and enjoy meeting new people, but I kinda worry about being too invasive about a topic I used to hate talking about publicly.
So... thoughts, feelings, opinions? I ended up smiling and thanking him for his help but leaving afterward wishing I had bombarded him with questions, despite his being at work. Sigh...
Hugs,
- Katie
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I would never ask someone about their status - since I have no idea how much of an issue it is for them I would prefer they told me of their own accord. They may be busting a gut for me to ask, but I doubt it. I wouldn't like it if someone I didn't know asked me out of the blue, especially if I was feeling really good about myself and the way I looked on that day - I wouldn't be devastated but my ego would take some serious bruising. The simplest thing would be to out yourself as part of the interaction. Say to them - "oh, by the way I'm trans and might have some trouble finding the right size hat for my head... (for example, I don't even know if this applies to you or not!!)" - that way you haven't suggested you know/think they are trans and if they are trans and want to come out to you they will.
I like that, subtlety hasn't always been my strong suit, but I'll definitely keep that in mind.
Hugs,
- Katie
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I personally wouldn't like it at all if someone started prying into my status in anyway. I probably wouldn't say anything about me being a trans even if the other party did. It's part of my medical history which means it's not other people's business and not meant to be aired out in the public. Someone suspects I'm trans? Cool, good for you. Now keep it to yourself.
That... did come off somewhat aggressive which really wasn't my intention. I just feel strongly about my privacy regarding this subject. I don't identify as a trans man, I'm a man with medical history which happens to include transsexualism diagnosis.
Quote from: Tossu-sama on October 12, 2015, 06:01:27 AM
I personally wouldn't like it at all if someone started prying into my status in anyway. I probably wouldn't say anything about me being a trans even if the other party did. It's part of my medical history which means it's not other people's business and not meant to be aired out in the public. Someone suspects I'm trans? Cool, good for you. Now keep it to yourself.
That... did come off somewhat aggressive which really wasn't my intention. I just feel strongly about my privacy regarding this subject. I don't identify as a trans man, I'm a man with medical history which happens to include transsexualism diagnosis.
This is why I avoided saying anything. But part of me feels like I missed out on making a new friend with so many things in common with me. But just because I feel isolated at times, doesn't mean I can assume that they'd be happy about becoming acquainted. I'd honestly be happier about it if I had privately said to him, "I'm trans too, and you look great," winked at him and left it at that.
We seriously need a secret handshake or something so we can surreptitiously know and identify the other members of our trans family. I don't think it's healthy to be so afraid and alone all the time. And I wish I had more trans friends...
So I guess maybe the question should be, what's the least offensive way for me to try to connect with another trans person that I run into IRL. "Just don't" isn't an answer I like :-/
Hugs,
- Katie
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You could try to be friends with him without touching the trans subject. And maybe after some time you could disclose your status to him. You know, hive him the opportunity, if he ever feel like it, he'll open up to you.
Just don't pressure the subject on him and don't get upset if he never mentions the fact of being trans. I bet you can become friends without having to come out to each other right away.
Quote from: MicheleGui on October 12, 2015, 06:53:44 AM
You could try to be friends with him without touching the trans subject. And maybe after some time you could disclose your status to him. You know, hive him the opportunity, if he ever feel like it, he'll open up to you.
Just don't pressure the subject on him and don't get upset if he ever mentions the fact of being trans. I bet you can become friends without having to come out to each other right away.
I don't know, I already have a lot of friends I can't really talk to about trans stuff. I'd rather be very straightforward and open. It's kinda how I best deal with being trans. Not that I have too many friends to have more. Nor would I only value a trans friend IRL for their trans-ness. While I get that my "Hi I'm trans, deal with it" approach is somewhat confrontational, but I really don't want to waste my free time befriending someone if my being trans is an issue for them. Maybe I could have just said to him "I'm buying this new hat because my hair has always been a frustrating cause of my dysphoria and I'd like another style to choose from when I'm having a bad hair day." It's pretty intensely personal, but by outing myself like this he would have the option to say something or not.
Hugs,
- Katie
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Leaving it up to him is definitely the best approach. Especially because, well, he might not be trans at all. Knowing trans people is always cool, and being able to talk about your experiences is great, but some people are stealth and would like to stay that way. I'm stealth, and while three of my good friends are trans guys, I'm only out to one of them (and that's because we went to the same trans support group for a few months). Even when it's trans people asking, I have no interest in telling them I'm trans. Like Tossu said, I'm just a guy with a medical condition, and while some people are perfectly happy talking to others about it, I'm not. If the hat shop guy is trans and wants to discuss it with you, rad! If not, it's better to leave it open-ended on his part than to bombard him.
Lets be akward for a moment
then hug
then smile
then go do stuff you or I enjoy
I will try to keep it unspoken but i'm a very honest person so every question you ask me, you get an answer.
In a storesituation tho:
Smile
Pay for what you bought
so... wanna chill?
wait for reaction
even if someone is trans came up to me and said they were trans, i wouldn't disclose that i was. i'm stealth in my every day life (college, work, etc.) and i only disclose when i'm going to a doctor/dating someone/sleeping with someone, etc. if someone came up to me and said they knew i was trans too, i'd actually be put off. i'd feel like i wasn't passing even though i'm over a year on T, have facial hair, and had surgery. i'd feel really dysphoric after that. you could just be his friend in a normal way without trying to get on about being trans then eventually drop a hint, or disclose it to him and see where it goes from there.
Quote from: Ms GraceSay to them - "oh, by the way I'm trans and might have some trouble finding the right size hat for my head... (for example, I don't even know if this applies to you or not!!)" - that way you haven't suggested you know/think they are trans and if they are trans and want to come out to you they will.
This.
As far as I'm concerned, it's the only acceptable way to handle this. There are a lot of reasons not to out a stranger, especially in a work situation -- basic courtesy is at that top of the list. More than that, consider the possibility that he may not be out to his employer and co-workers; you could be creating serious problems for him if you out him in his workplace.
Not unless there is an open invitation to speak about it and in a more private setting, or in some kind of trans-specific setting, I'm not sure who would be comfortable having someone "recognize" that they are trans out there and start talking about it. Personally I don't think I would want to talk of it with a complete stranger in a public setting where I would be on guard anyways. Maybe some people would and I'm just not that kind of person.
I've noticed one or two trans people who are apparently super rare where I am, and although I feel a slight urge toward them because they're like me, I never ask them about it. For one thing any hint might be picked up on by others who are not trans and it might out them. A big no no. For another they might already be stressed and to have someone notice might cause them to think they do not pass, even if we trans people can recognize the signs others might not see so easily. If a trans person came to me for help out there or something it might be a different matter but I wouldn't approach anybody. It isn't really any of my business, just because I am trans too... I know some may disagree but it's about a private matter as it gets and not what I would consider a comfortable ice breaker.
I was in the GIC last week and if some other FTM or MTF has decided to approach me there, fine. That is a safe setting where we all 'know' anyway and there's no chance of harming anybody's discretion there if I speak about the subject. But in everyday places I would be very careful.
The good news is that there are places like this where we can ask as many questions as we want and help each other out, without that problem.
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on October 12, 2015, 11:38:58 AM
Not unless there is an open invitation to speak about it and in a more private setting, or in some kind of trans-specific setting, I'm not sure who would be comfortable having someone "recognize" that they are trans out there and start talking about it. Personally I don't think I would want to talk of it with a complete stranger in a public setting where I would be on guard anyways. Maybe some people would and I'm just not that kind of person.
I've noticed one or two trans people who are apparently super rare where I am, and although I feel a slight urge toward them because they're like me, I never ask them about it. For one thing any hint might be picked up on by others who are not trans and it might out them. A big no no. For another they might already be stressed and to have someone notice might cause them to think they do not pass, even if we trans people can recognize the signs others might not see so easily. If a trans person came to me for help out there or something it might be a different matter but I wouldn't approach anybody. It isn't really any of my business, just because I am trans too... I know some may disagree but it's about a private matter as it gets and not what I would consider a comfortable ice breaker.
I was in the GIC last week and if some other FTM or MTF has decided to approach me there, fine. That is a safe setting where we all 'know' anyway and there's no chance of harming anybody's discretion there if I speak about the subject. But in everyday places I would be very careful.
The good news is that there are places like this where we can ask as many questions as we want and help each other out, without that problem.
I don't know, being trans shouldn't be the same as being in AA. It just makes me sad to think that I can never approach IRL another person who is trans like myself for fear of disrupting their anonymity. Contextually, yes he was at work, but by himself, we were alone together in the shop. I would never out someone to other people, that's just not cool. This is why I partly seriously think we need a secret handshake...
Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: Tysilio on October 12, 2015, 11:18:41 AM
This.
As far as I'm concerned, it's the only acceptable way to handle this. There are a lot of reasons not to out a stranger, especially in a work situation -- basic courtesy is at that top of the list. More than that, consider the possibility that he may not be out to his employer and co-workers; you could be creating serious problems for him if you out him in his workplace.
We were alone together in the somewhat small boutique, easily being run by him without help. I wouldn't out someone to other people, it's seriously not cool.
Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: invisiblemonsters on October 12, 2015, 09:10:17 AM
even if someone is trans came up to me and said they were trans, i wouldn't disclose that i was. i'm stealth in my every day life (college, work, etc.) and i only disclose when i'm going to a doctor/dating someone/sleeping with someone, etc. if someone came up to me and said they knew i was trans too, i'd actually be put off. i'd feel like i wasn't passing even though i'm over a year on T, have facial hair, and had surgery. i'd feel really dysphoric after that. you could just be his friend in a normal way without trying to get on about being trans then eventually drop a hint, or disclose it to him and see where it goes from there.
I pass well, but I want to find other people that are trans positive. I don't particularly want to give up the chance to instantly bond with someone about one of the most important and influential aspects of my life. I know exactly how hard, frustrating and expensive being trans and passing can be. It's normal to bond over shared experiences. It's normal to talk about the things you've done recently but I don't because so much of it either has to do with transition or trans related things. I go to school, but it's barely half of my focus. I want to find more friends I can be 100% me with and not filter everything trans out. Yes I'm also uncomfortable talking about my stuff with people who aren't trans. This is why I want IRL trans fellowship similar to the gay community. If we can't have something like this in San Francisco, where the heck can we?
Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: veniamviam on October 12, 2015, 07:39:26 AM
Leaving it up to him is definitely the best approach. Especially because, well, he might not be trans at all. Knowing trans people is always cool, and being able to talk about your experiences is great, but some people are stealth and would like to stay that way. I'm stealth, and while three of my good friends are trans guys, I'm only out to one of them (and that's because we went to the same trans support group for a few months). Even when it's trans people asking, I have no interest in telling them I'm trans. Like Tossu said, I'm just a guy with a medical condition, and while some people are perfectly happy talking to others about it, I'm not. If the hat shop guy is trans and wants to discuss it with you, rad! If not, it's better to leave it open-ended on his part than to bombard him.
True he might not be trans, and I could just have been mistaken, I thought of that. But what if he thought the exact same things as me, but out of courtesy said nothing? I'd never actually bombard someone about being trans and stuff. I guess I'm just frustrated that we're always so afraid of upsetting each other that we are content being invisible.
Hugs,
- Katie
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It depends for me on 2 things - where we are and how you bring it up.
If we're at a place where it isn't out of the norm to be trans, cool. I've had people start discussions with me at the doctor's office (it's an LGBTQ clinic). Pride events, other community gatherings, also cool. I figure if I'm putting myself in that situation, I've given up a certain degree of stealth. Obviously you can't be 100% sure how someone identifies, but I would be pretty open to it from one trans person to another since it is much more likely that we'll figure each other out. I would not be so warm if you were not trans.
And I really like the way Ms. Grace came up with to broach the subject. If you're going to essentially ask for any kind of confirmation as to someone else's trans status, I think the good faith move is to put yourself out there first.
Privately.
I'm generally okay to talk about stuff. That said... I've made some mistakes in thinking that I've clocked transgender people. Whether a person is actually cisgender or transgender, being read as transgender can be horribly devastating. I'm more offended by this reaction of devastation than anything, to be honest; I perceive it to be awfully transphobic.
So, like Ms Grace said, I might mention that I'm trans if I can find a relevant reason to work it into the conversation. But only say it once! They'll get the message if they're trans, and if not, they probably won't think anything of it.
I very much agree with what Grace said. Outing yourself, if it is private enough, is the way to go and has worked well for me. If the other person does not say they are, I just drop it.
Quote from: sparrow on October 12, 2015, 07:57:49 PM
I'm generally okay to talk about stuff. That said... I've made some mistakes in thinking that I've clocked transgender people. Whether a person is actually cisgender or transgender, being read as transgender can be horribly devastating. I'm more offended by this reaction of devastation than anything, to be honest; I perceive it to be awfully transphobic.
So, like Ms Grace said, I might mention that I'm trans if I can find a relevant reason to work it into the conversation. But only say it once! They'll get the message if they're trans, and if not, they probably won't think anything of it.
Followed by:
"Wink wink, knudge knudge, say no more, say no more!"
But seriously, yeah I get that everyone has their own comfort zones, but I hate the inherent transphobia a lot of us are somewhat encouraged to embrace for fear that dreaded Cis people are watching. I'd rather be out and proud and risk insulting or bothering people than meekly being silent and out of sight.
I'm not exactly sure why, but part of this whole dilemma really bothers me. We should be able to roll our eyes at Cis people together for their ignorance. I'm so fraking tired of hiding.
Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: jessical on October 12, 2015, 08:06:42 PM
I very much agree with what Grace said. Outing yourself, if it is private enough, is the way to go and has worked well for me. If the other person does not say they are, I just drop it.
It's a good rule of thumb, I agree. Maybe I'm overthinking everything a little... I just wish I didn't have to be so furtive about it. It's like being furtive means I accept something intricate to who I am is shameful, when I don't think like that anymore for my own sanity's sake.
Hugs,
- Katie
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No one's saying you need to be "furtive;" this is about being aware that other people's boundaries may not be the same as yours, which is a very different thing. The approach Grace suggested is the opposite of furtive, in fact: you'd be putting yourself out there first, while not putting the other person on the spot.
If you're in San Francisco, you should have no problem meeting other trans folk socially -- there are any number of venues and organizations, support groups, and so on in the Bay area.
Quote from: Obfuskatie on October 12, 2015, 05:04:40 PM
True he might not be trans, and I could just have been mistaken, I thought of that. But what if he thought the exact same things as me, but out of courtesy said nothing? I'd never actually bombard someone about being trans and stuff. I guess I'm just frustrated that we're always so afraid of upsetting each other that we are content being invisible.
Hugs,
- Katie
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I don't think it's because of being afraid of upsetting people, it's called common decency and respect. In my opinion it would be no different than a cis person I don't know asking about my genitals while at work.
Do I know you? No.
Am I working? Yes.
Is it the time or place for a complete stranger to essentially be telling me they know what is, or used to be, in my pants? No.
Is it any of your business? Absolutely not unless I choose to mention it.
If you must try to start a conversion about it, don't have it be because "I know what you are", that's just plain rude no matter how excited you are to see someone you think may be trans.
I could only do what Ms Grace suggested. It's unkind to disrupt someone's day with that- what if he's very troubled by being noticed like that? Since you were alone in the shop, you can easily drop the, Hey, I'm trans and be relaly positive and happy about it and let him do what he will in reaction.
Some people can't help but need to constantly stealth. They might only identify as trans until they feel they pass well enough and then stop associating with the community. This makes me feel sad, because I feel keeping in touch with other trans and queer folk is a lifeline for me, but for some it might feel like the anchor dragging them deeper underwater. I wish things could be more casual, as you do, but tragically it will be a big deal for a long time, hopefully someday generations later, people can have no worries as to being trans. That being said, in SF I bet there are loads of places and trans people to hang with :)
Katie, I'm a transguy who recently moved to San Francisco and totally looking to find more of a community around here. I'm stealth at work / daily life, but definitely miss having people that know or understand my past. Send me a PM, maybe we can hang out sometime!
And yeah, you would think it would be easy to find a trans community here - and there are certainly more gender non-conforming people in this city - but the same issues come up as in any other place. Besides support groups (and perhaps the LGBT neighborhoods of SF but even they tend to be more filled with cis gay men) there aren't many places for trans-folk to meet or gather...
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Quote from: Obfuskatie on October 12, 2015, 04:44:04 PM
I don't know, being trans shouldn't be the same as being in AA. It just makes me sad to think that I can never approach IRL another person who is trans like myself for fear of disrupting their anonymity. Contextually, yes he was at work, but by himself, we were alone together in the shop. I would never out someone to other people, that's just not cool. This is why I partly seriously think we need a secret handshake...
Hugs,
- Katie
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Well, first time I joined a trans forum a couple of years ago one of the first things I saw on the boards was an argument between two trans people, and one of them said just because they're trans, doesn't mean they have to be another trans person's friend, doesn't mean they have to empathize or sympathize with anybody else just because they have the same condition (i.e. the person they were arguing with). They are still around in that place, still of the same mind and quite aggressive about the subject.
The fact that was one of the first things I encountered in the community has kept me wary of assuming another trans person will automatically be friendly, or that it's not just an anonymity issue - some people just don't want to be bothered by anybody about their transness.
That said there is a spectrum of people out there - some will be happy to speak about it. Like with all people though, getting to speak about things is an organic process and needs to happen naturally not to be seen or felt as weird. I think in the right setting it is not weird. Just as someone coming up to me at a con and talking about my art would not be weird, in the right setting talking about trans wouldn't be. But if someone showed an inordinate interest in the wrong kind of situation, I might be suspicious or put off by it. I guess you just gotta gauge the situation carefully.
QuoteHow would you prefer other trans people approach you about trans stuff IRL
It is no more or less appropriate than a cisgender person approaching me about "trans stuff". Context is everything. At someone's place of work? Absolutely not. At a transgender support meeting? Fine.
Quote from: Obfuskatie on October 12, 2015, 06:22:29 AM
But part of me feels like I missed out on making a new friend with so many things in common with me.
But do you have "so many things" in common. You are both trans, that's just one thing. Your personalities might not even mesh. I have very little trans friends because just being trans isn't something to hold us together. The only trans friends I have are people who I met because we were trans and we had things in common outside of sharing a medical condition.
Quote from: Tossu-sama on October 12, 2015, 06:01:27 AM
I personally wouldn't like it at all if someone started prying into my status in anyway. I probably wouldn't say anything about me being a trans even if the other party did. It's part of my medical history which means it's not other people's business and not meant to be aired out in the public. Someone suspects I'm trans? Cool, good for you. Now keep it to yourself.
That... did come off somewhat aggressive which really wasn't my intention. I just feel strongly about my privacy regarding this subject. I don't identify as a trans man, I'm a man with medical history which happens to include transsexualism diagnosis.
I agree with you.
I would never approach someone who I ASSUMED (because let's face it, you are assuming, and assumptions aren't always correct, even if you believe you have some special knowledge because you yourself are trans) was trans and out myself. And if someone did that to me I would be livid.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on October 14, 2015, 09:29:33 PM
But do you have "so many things" in common. You are both trans, that's just one thing. Your personalities might not even mesh. I have very little trans friends because just being trans isn't something to hold us together. The only trans friends I have are people who I met because we were trans and we had things in common outside of sharing a medical condition.
I agree with you.
I would never approach someone who I ASSUMED (because let's face it, you are assuming, and assumptions aren't always correct, even if you believe you have some special knowledge because you yourself are trans) was trans and out myself. And if someone did that to me I would be livid.
I hear you, and understand your sentiment, as it is a popular one that I used to share. However the question isn't yes or no, nor was I asking why I should shut up and go away. I'd especially prefer for someone antagonistic to being approached would say how they prefer to be approached if it were to happen. Because it will happen. Whether it's by another trans person, someone nice, someone meaning well, or someone possessing all or a few or none of those qualities.
I know I would prefer that it were another trans person who would approach it delicately in a private setting. But I'll settle for someone not yelling at me or calling me pejoratives based on ignorance and a few phobias. I will always bristle depending on how it's brought up to me, so I think that the best way to approach a safe way of broaching a subject that will be broached anyway is to find the safest method for us to connect with each other.
Again, "Just don't," isn't an acceptable answer to my question. Limiting our self-acceptance to behind computer screens and support groups seems short-sighted and sad to me. Being trans is just a thing that is, not a defect. I'm sick of buying into the thought that I'm somehow flawed or handicapped. Frak that BS.
Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: Obfuskatie on October 14, 2015, 10:49:41 PM
I hear you, and understand your sentiment, as it is a popular one that I used to share. However the question isn't yes or no, nor was I asking why I should shut up and go away. I'd especially prefer for someone antagonistic to being approached would say how they prefer to be approached if it were to happen. Because it will happen. Whether it's by another trans person, someone nice, someone meaning well, or someone possessing all or a few or none of those qualities.
I know I would prefer that it were another trans person who would approach it delicately in a private setting. But I'll settle for someone not yelling at me or calling me pejoratives based on ignorance and a few phobias. I will always bristle depending on how it's brought up to me, so I think that the best way to approach a safe way of broaching a subject that will be broached anyway is to find the safest method for us to connect with each other.
Again, "Just don't," isn't an acceptable answer to my question. Limiting our self-acceptance to behind computer screens and support groups seems short-sighted and sad to me. Being trans is just a thing that is, not a defect. I'm sick of buying into the thought that I'm somehow flawed or handicapped. Frak that BS.
Hugs,
- Katie
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To be honest, it doesn't matter how someone were to approach someone who doesn't want to be approached, no matter how nice, or gently, or whatever they do it, the other person will always feel violated. Just don't is a total valid answer. It's none of your business if that person is or is not trans, and your desire to make more trans friends does not get a say in that situation. The guy is at work, you don't know for sure he's trans, and he's not bringing it up. Those are all signs that you should just keep your mouth shut. It would be a different situation if you were at some kind of queer event or trans specific event/club. If I personally were approached, again, no matter how the other person approached me, I would deny being trans. To me being trans is a defect. It's not a part of my life I want to talk about with others, except for some places online. I treat my transsexualism like I would treat any of my other medical issues, and that is that they are my business and my business only.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on October 14, 2015, 11:41:24 PM
To be honest, it doesn't matter how someone were to approach someone who doesn't want to be approached, no matter how nice, or gently, or whatever they do it, the other person will always feel violated. Just don't is a total valid answer. It's none of your business if that person is or is not trans, and your desire to make more trans friends does not get a say in that situation. The guy is at work, you don't know for sure he's trans, and he's not bringing it up. Those are all signs that you should just keep your mouth shut. It would be a different situation if you were at some kind of queer event or trans specific event/club. If I personally were approached, again, no matter how the other person approached me, I would deny being trans. To me being trans is a defect. It's not a part of my life I want to talk about with others, except for some places online. I treat my transsexualism like I would treat any of my other medical issues, and that is that they are my business and my business only.
I'm sorry you feel that way, truly I am.
In that safe context you mentioned (at a queer event, let's say Camp Trans a year ago): how would you prefer to be approached?
I'm not saying I'm going to get in your business or anyone's business. I'm not saying it's my right or anyone's right. I'm not saying that you have to think in a particular way. I'm asking a question, which may be pertinent in case someone wants to respect and pay attentions to your feelings.
I refuse to keep my head down and ignore anyone who might want a friend or need someone to talk to. I refuse to always look the other way because it's convenient and easier than risking annoying someone who might need or want companionship or help. I refuse to believe that all trans events require people to leave separately and never associate outside of them. I refuse to hate something I can never change about myself; because if I can't stop hating that, how could a Cis person?
Hugs,
- Katie
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I would be kind of offended if another Trans woman clocked me. But I would still talk to her.
"Hey I noticed you're Trans, I'm Trans too"
Yeah that would not make me feel good.
Quote from: Obfuskatie on October 15, 2015, 02:55:37 AM
I'm sorry you feel that way, truly I am.
In that safe context you mentioned (at a queer event, let's say Camp Trans a year ago): how would you prefer to be approached?
I'm not saying I'm going to get in your business or anyone's business. I'm not saying it's my right or anyone's right. I'm not saying that you have to think in a particular way. I'm asking a question, which may be pertinent in case someone wants to respect and pay attentions to your feelings.
I refuse to keep my head down and ignore anyone who might want a friend or need someone to talk to. I refuse to always look the other way because it's convenient and easier than risking annoying someone who might need or want companionship or help. I refuse to believe that all trans events require people to leave separately and never associate outside of them. I refuse to hate something I can never change about myself; because if I can't stop hating that, how could a Cis person?
Hugs,
- Katie
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If you must, the only correct way to interact with another person who has not stated they are trans in any way (verbally or by wearing clothing stating they are trans) is to bring up your own trans-ness, and not mention that you assume they might be trans.
I'm going to be blunt and honest. Asking someone if they're transgender isn't something the rest of the world knows is "off limits." I had someone at Lowes ask me the other day "Are you transing?" (Their word, not mine! :laugh: ) I said "I sure am, Charlie." He told me I had a lot of courage and wished me well. To me, as long as someone is respectful, they can ask me anything. Anything at all.
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on October 15, 2015, 10:57:25 AM
I'm going to be blunt and honest. Asking someone if they're transgender isn't something the rest of the world knows is "off limits." I had someone at Lowes ask me the other day "Are you transing?" (Their word, not mine! :laugh: ) I said "I sure am, Charlie." He told me I had a lot of courage and wished me well. To me, as long as someone is respectful, they can ask me anything. Anything at all.
Hugs, Devlyn
I had a cabbie ask me about it when I went to the conference in SLO, CA. Apparently he had heard of the conference and remembered it from last year. Here's essentially how it went:
"Hi I need a ride downtown, I didn't realize it was such a long walk from my hotel to Cal Poly."
"Are you just visiting?"
"No, there's this conference I heard about on Twitter..."
"Oh... You're trans?"(not exactly what he said but not everyone knows the lingo).
"Um, yeah. Anyway, the Gender Conference thing sounded really cool, and had a lot of interesting panels."
"Like?"
...etc.
I didn't really have an issue opening up to the cabbie, but I wasn't initially planning on outing myself. Sometimes people know more than we realize, but I don't particularly want to police my openness any more than I have for most of my life. I think he would have been a lot less friendly had I vehemently denied being trans and kept sullen and quiet after.
Sometimes people need to be lead by your example for how you treat your being trans. If you fully accept yourself, someone else who doesn't accept you is just an -jerk.
A guy I recently dated, with whom I had a lot of fun and had tentatively arranged to go out with a second time, recently called me to essentially let me down easily. He retroactively decided that he couldn't get past my being trans, despite feeling badly about it. I had to goad him into being fully forthcoming by asking him to postpone consideration of my feelings, I wanted to know his. I essentially responded by saying:
"I appreciate your honesty. I'm glad you're telling me this now, before I become any more invested in a relationship. I'm disappointed and there's nothing I can do about being trans which is why I was very upfront about it. I hope you find who you're looking for..."
Yes I was upset, but not particularly surprised. I'm more frustrated and annoyed than sad about it. And pretty much immediately I started talking to a different guy who wasn't a jerk. Soooooo, essentially the jerk made it easier for me to not have to deal with him while apologizing to me instead of the other way around.
Hugs,
- Katie
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I'm with you obfuskatie. We need a secret handshake, button, tattoo so that we can recognize each other. And a secret clue phrase that asks if the person is willing to talk. I would NEVER say anything to anyone in public. But I also like the idea of saying that I am ftm "so I might have trouble finding a size that fits (or something).
I'd like to be able to find others to talk to and even hang out with. I mean not even my wife understands as much as she tries. Would be nice to have some trans dudes to hang out with.
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Quote from: chance on October 16, 2015, 12:58:25 AM
I'm with you obfuskatie. We need a secret handshake, button, tattoo so that we can recognize each other. And a secret clue phrase that asks if the person is willing to talk. I would NEVER say anything to anyone in public. But I also like the idea of saying that I am ftm "so I might have trouble finding a size that fits (or something).
I'd like to be able to find others to talk to and even hang out with. I mean not even my wife understands as much as she tries. Would be nice to have some trans dudes to hang out with.
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Yay! It makes me happy that there's a few people open to the idea. I think a secret handshake would be hilarious, but we'd need it to be unique and imperceptible by the casual observer. I plan on getting a discreet tattoo in February, but hesitate to do something like a purple butterfly in a visible part of my body. Gay people used to have the pierced ear thing, we happy trans need something similar IMO.
I totally understand, and wish there was a safe meeting pace or something for us to just relax. Not a support group, because it can get too heavy there.
Hugs,
- Katie
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Yeah. Agree about the support group setting. I like the idea of a purple butterfly even though I don't like butterflies *lol* I mean as tattoos for myself :-D
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Quote from: chance on October 16, 2015, 01:17:16 AM
Yeah. Agree about the support group setting. I like the idea of a purple butterfly even though I don't like butterflies *lol* I mean as tattoos for myself :-D
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Same here. I was thinking along the lines of a tattoo that wasn't a scarlet T, but the purple butterfly is kind of an obvious reference to metamorphosis. But hey, would Cis people really understand a scarlet T? Barely anyone reads Nathaniel Hawthorne anymore...
Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: Obfuskatie on October 16, 2015, 01:08:38 AM
Yay! It makes me happy that there's a few people open to the idea. I think a secret handshake would be hilarious, but we'd need it to be unique and imperceptible by the casual observer. I plan on getting a discreet tattoo in February, but hesitate to do something like a purple butterfly in a visible part of my body. Gay people used to have the pierced ear thing, we happy trans need something similar IMO.
I totally understand, and wish there was a safe meeting pace or something for us to just relax. Not a support group, because it can get too heavy there.
Hugs,
- Katie
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This is something of a relived nightmare for me. I was gay in the seventies and yes, we had the pierced thing, the pinky ring, the small pentagon star tattoo that could be hidden under a wristwatch during business hours. All the hiding, shame, secrecy, and other things that made it impossible for us to find each other. Trying to pass as straight yet leave enough clues. Of course back in the stone ages there was no media representation and no internet. The internet helps but the real world has gone back to being a lonely and dangerous place.
It deja vu all over again. >:(
I don't have an answer to the question, I just wish the question wasn't needed.
Its always awkward... a while back I found myself sitting in on a clinic with a consultant. I wont tell you what or where the clinic was, but one of the patients asked that the "female medical student" be asked to leave the room for their consultation.
I duely went and stood outside because it a patients right not to have a student present if they are embarrassed by what they want to discuss. Afterwards I gathered from the consultant that this was because the patient was transitioning gender and thought I would probably not understand and might possibly laugh or disapprove...
It just goes to show you can never tell who is sitting opposite you, and that nice female medical student may actually have an evidently well hidden hidden trans history herself. So I suppsoe what I am saying is that it is difficult to judge and I certainly wouldnt want anyone to feel awkward...
Quote from: Aazhie on October 12, 2015, 10:45:24 PM
I could only do what Ms Grace suggested. It's unkind to disrupt someone's day with that - what if he's very troubled by being noticed like that? Since you were alone in the shop, you can easily drop the, Hey, I'm trans and be really positive and happy about it and let him do what he will in reaction.
Some people can't help but need to constant stealth. They might only identify as trans until they feel they pass well enough and then stop associating with the community. This makes me feel sad, because I feel keeping in touch with other trans and queer folk is a lifeline for me, but for some it might feel like the anchor dragging them deeper underwater. I wish things could be more casual, as you do, but tragically it will be a big deal for a long time, hopefully someday generations later, people can have no worries as to being trans. :)
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I did my 11 years of transition in stealth; my counsellor told me that I was the only transsexual in my part of the country (metropolitan Salt Lake City) which meant I lacked the support of others.
I lived my life since then in quiet anonymity still without any transsexual support group and, yes, I felt alone and lonely. Earlier this year, I decided to out myself, explore everyone else in this big wide world, join a transsexual support group, and seek to befriend fellow transsexuals, F-M and M-F alike. I am interested in F-M in a serious curious way.
In my own odd history, as inter-sex, I kinda have been both ways as (F)-M-F. In what does not make reasoned sense, sometimes I want to think 'Why would anyone want to change from female?', while there are F-M thinking 'Why would anyone want to change from male?', then I realise my reasoning knows better. Aren't we all a bit of humour that way?
During my past, I definitely would have not responded positively if a stranger came to me and presumed my transsexual status. I am less closed nowadays but still likely to not disclose if asked - it is still my private business.
If the other person made their introduction being transsexual and said words comprehensible within the transsexual community and not to 'outsiders', then I might be willing to open up if they made me feel comfortable.
Otherwise, yes, it is my private life and my personal medical information not open to anyone without my acceptance and my agreeing to open to you who are asking. I'll open to known transsexuals and to others at a transsexual support group and freely compare notes.
Looking for secret words? Our alphabet soup of procedures and processes is a start. At least among M-F, our initials of BA, GCS, SRS, FFS, VFS, M2F, F2M, and other letters and terms can help; I expect insiders know when someone talks of shadow, shave, tuck, up top, or binders. I have come to know some LGBT-friendly people and even they have eyes that glaze over and can't define those examples.
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Quote from: Rejennyrated on October 16, 2015, 09:24:44 AM
Its always awkward... a while back I found myself sitting in on a clinic with a consultant. I wont tell you what or where the clinic was, but one of the patients asked that the "female medical student" be asked to leave the room for their consultation.
I duely went and stood outside because it a patients right not to have a student present if they are embarrassed by what they want to discuss. Afterwards I gathered from the consultant that this was because the patient was transitioning gender and thought I would probably not understand and might possibly laugh or disapprove...
It just goes to show you can never tell who is sitting opposite you, and that nice female medical student may actually have an evidently well hidden hidden trans history herself. So I suppsoe what I am saying is that it is difficult to judge and I certainly wouldnt want anyone to feel awkward...
Exactly! I think maybe instead of us focusing so hard on blending in to the background, that those of us who are a bit more comfortable with being trans reach out IRL when we can. I know a lot of the out trans people have dysphoria terribly hard sometimes specifically because closeted trans folk avoid them and even the best meaning Cis people can't understand what it means to be trans. Either we learn to reach out to everyone, or we try to take everything on by ourselves. The latter hasn't been working for me.
Maybe next time you see that patient, you can mention in private that part of you interest in your field is because you were trying to understand yourself better as a trans woman, or something. Dangle that olive branch ;-)
Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: Sharon Anne McC on October 16, 2015, 10:49:44 AM
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I did my 11 years of transition in stealth; my counsellor told me that I was the only transsexual in my part of the country (metropolitan Salt Lake City) which meant I lacked the support of others.
I lived my life since then in quiet anonymity still without any transsexual support group and, yes, I felt alone and lonely. Earlier this year, I decided to out myself, explore everyone else in this big wide world, join a transsexual support group, and seek to befriend fellow transsexuals, F-M and M-F alike. I am interested in F-M in a serious curious way.
In my own odd history, as inter-sex, I kinda have been both ways as (F)-M-F. In what does not make reasoned sense, sometimes I want to think 'Why would anyone want to change from female?', while there are F-M thinking 'Why would anyone want to change from male?', then I realise my reasoning knows better. Aren't we all a bit of humour that way?
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I'm pretty sure any time someone says, "There are no trans people anywhere near here," another trans person born exactly near there. If you're familiar with Grishno on YouTube, I know she came from SLC Utah, but because of prejudice and disapproving parental units she left for New York, then San Francisco Bay Area California. If you're not familiar with her, you're welcome, she has a fount of information and advocacy along with her personal story that you can find on her channel.
Did you mean that you find trans men hot by your "serious curious way" comment? Because I totally agree, if you did ;-)
Back when I was an angry person, I was sooooooo jealous of women that I was mad at the idea of any of those lucky enough to be born that way squandering it. I won't get into my adolescent, warped, anti feminist views about women, I'll just say I had a lot of growing up to do an ignorance to overcome. It wasn't until my late teens (around 2001) that I even knew trans men existed. Only because of porn. That's when I started to look up stuff online and finally had a word for me that wasn't used in porn and seemingly unrealistic.
Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: Jameson on October 16, 2015, 09:08:46 AM
This is something of a relived nightmare for me. I was gay in the seventies and yes, we had the pierced thing, the pinky ring, the small pentagon star tattoo that could be hidden under a wristwatch during business hours. All the hiding, shame, secrecy, and other things that made it impossible for us to find each other. Trying to pass as straight yet leave enough clues. Of course back in the stone ages there was no media representation and no internet. The internet helps but the real world has gone back to being a lonely and dangerous place.
It deja vu all over again. >:(
I don't have an answer to the question, I just wish the question wasn't needed.
Not that it's really that safe to even do PDAs in public if you're gay or even in a non traditional relationship. I like to blame the U.S.'s purityrannical roots, but systemic prejudice, misogyny and homophobia are a bit more complex in their causes and influences. While transphobia had long historical roots over a millennia ago, Homophobia and Hetero-panic are a new invention from modernity. Gayness wasn't openly accepted, but it was overlooked, and few paid attention to women being gay.
Fast forwarding the recent future, I think that trans people would benefit greatly to follow some of the examples of gay culture in the recent past. The reason gay people have won so many battles recently is because of money and a more or less united front. In order to organize we need to be able to see each other IRL. We aren't alone and we don't need computers to talk to each other.
Leaving clues is a somewhat arcane thing from the gay community but it's easily doable. Even if it meant getting a flash tattoo of a butterfly or something on visible skin, it'd disappear after a few weeks and you could go back to being anonymous. The piercing trick, left is "right", right is "gay." Once my upper cartilage on my right ear heals I'm going to wear a cuff earring there because I'm bi, and I was thinking about the past when I chose the ear for it.
My mom was approached by a lesbian years ago because she was wearing a shirt with a large flower on it, I'm guessing it was reminiscent of Georgia O'Keefe and my mom's short hair and jeans and butch demeanor sent all the wrong signals. I had no idea about this, but when she saw me trying on a shirt I had bought online recently she told me that my shirt might make people think I was a lesbian. I made her tell me why she thought that, and then managed not to laugh or tell her why I thought she was hit on, since she's kind of clueless and straight.
If I decide to get more tattoos, either the second or third will be a purple butterfly (possibly with hello world written in Java on its wings). It's the only thing I can think of that is a ubiquitous metaphor for being trans and transitioning, and ties where I was when I found my path to it.
The reason I keep thinking about handshakes is because I don't think we should force ourselves to be counterculture, but there is safety in privacy when we are scarce. We shouldn't require someone to endure a tattoo or piercing or pay for the outfit to be included. A handshake is free ;-)
The lingo might work to an extent, but it's problematic to require verbal interviews.
Hugs,
- Katie
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I am open to being approached by other trans people, just respect my privacy. My ego doesn't blind me from the reality that I can be clocked as a trans woman, especially by other trans people.
Quote from: Obfuskatie on October 16, 2015, 11:16:15 AM
I'm pretty sure any time someone says, "There are no trans people anywhere near here," another trans person born exactly near there. If you're familiar with Grishno on YouTube, I know she came from SLC Utah, but because of prejudice and disapproving parental units she left for New York, then San Francisco Bay Area California. If you're not familiar with her, you're welcome, she has a fount of information and advocacy along with her personal story that you can find on her channel.
Did you mean that you find trans men hot by your "serious curious way" comment? Because I totally agree, if you did ;-)
Hugs,
- Katie
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Katie:
I am not familiar with Grishno whom you referred; I will need to find her at her YouTube site. I have my own personal site with my bio and other information.
I lived at suburban SLC (1980 - 1985) and did my primary transition there. The counsellor I had (1983 - 1985) told me that he knew of no other transsexuals there in the area at that time.
I did a combination of both individual and group. We decided that I should limit my transsexual issues to our private time because the others in group could not handle the topic. I went with his sentiment and I still consider it valid for my situation at my time; I danced around on other issues during group and I was okay with that. Some people did ask at group why I was really there. Certainly they saw my physiological changes during those two years as I lived in 'male fail', but they did not ask me about it. See this 'Susan's' thread: 'Topic: The All New 'Before & After Topic (v 3.0)'.
Previously, I met briefly with a M-F by accident (1974) and then a second M-F came to work at my location for a two-weeks military inspection (1978). They were my sole experience meeting others until this year.
The local transsexual group I attend where I now reside seems so ho-hum; they've been hanging around each other for more than 15 years. Yet I am so enthused; even when there small groups of a handfull of us, I feel surrounded by a mob considering this is the first time I have actually met so many others at one time. Two irregular members are F-M.
I have been participating at a general information message board and chat room since March this year. I outed when I introduced myself so that everyone knew my background though other information is anonymous. That helpt during debate about transsexual issues - Caitlyn Jenner for one.
One day, posts were heavy with antipathy toward both M-F and F-M. One commentor asked me why I would consider a F-M for a heterosexual partner. I replied with a big question that she certainly knew my background and would it not be bigotted of me to reject a F-M partner. Well, uh.; it seemed as if she asked her question in her honesty yet asked it seemingly forgetting my own (F)-M-F past. During these months, the regulars to this board have moved from near total antipathy and blatant hate speech of transsexualism to near acceptance and rare hate speech. I have been the only transsexual defending the cause, so to speak.
In the course of our exchange yesterday, one post addressed her compliment to me:
- 'I commend you for having so much patience to try to explain yourself and spread more understanding to all of us. Thank you for being so open, honest and transparent about your life, your surgeries, and your feelings.' (Reference available on request.)
It is my sense of humour with a touch of truth, I have heard those of us comment. The M-F frequently asks, 'How can anyone want to be male?' while the F-M asks 'How can anyone want to be female?'. That is asking who experiences sex better - male or female? My answer is female while the F-M says male. We're both correct, eh.
I am most serious about meeting with F-M. At the least, it would be fun exchanging notes, so to speak. Maybe my inter-sex and retrospective F-M circumstance would add to the intrigue. I met my new gender counsellor who is F-M, but that is strictly business.
Let's face it, my sexuality is not tied to procreation. Why not experience other options?
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Quote from: kittenpower on October 16, 2015, 01:49:18 PM
I am open to being approached by other trans people, just respect my privacy. My ego doesn't blind me from the reality that I can be clocked as a trans woman, especially by other trans people.
It's funny because I get paranoid about my facial hair but yesterday saw a woman with a much fuller mustache than the sparse remnants I have sporadic electrolysis for. I know my voice isn't perfect, but I don't often get clocked, even when I talk to people, as long as we aren't talking over the phone. Still, I kinda don't want to focus too much of my energy on trying to be perfect. And if someone approached me and asked, I would be taken aback, and it might make me insecure in some ways, but I'm not offended by someone knowing I'm trans. I also cannot control what they do after knowing. I just trust that their lives aren't about me, and they probably won't go out of their way to make me uncomfortable.
Hugs,
- Katie
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Quote from: Obfuskatie on October 16, 2015, 11:56:17 AM
Fast forwarding the recent future, I think that trans people would benefit greatly to follow some of the examples of gay culture in the recent past. The reason gay people have won so many battles recently is because of money and a more or less united front. In order to organize we need to be able to see each other IRL. We aren't alone and we don't need computers to talk to each other.
I wholeheartedly agree the transgender community could benefit actually being more of a community the way the gay community is. But they do have a notable advantage over us, in that their "community" is also their primary dating pool, so it's easier for gay people to socialize and organize. I think one thing we have to remember, is that in order for us to be able to make progress, we have to be able to own our identities. I fully understand why transgender people almost universally want to pass and blend in, but if we go too far in that direction, we do it at out own expense. How many people do you think would be more accepting of those who are transgender if they knew one transgender person that was just a regular normal person in every other way? How many people already know a transgender person that meets that description, but never realize they are transgender? A lot of recent progress we have made is because people like Caitlyn Jenner and Laverne Cox have been willing to be open about their transgender status and act as visible role models. I don't think we need to make being transgender our whole lives, but I don't buy into the idea of transitioning and moving on either. I think it should be okay for someone to be open about being transgender, and not something that turns a person into a public spectacle. And the only way we will ever get that, is if we are willing to make ourselves visible enough that people know who we are, and see that we are just normal people like anyone else.
But to answer original question of this thread, if someone walked up to me and asked me about my transgender status, with things being the way they are now, I would more than anything be suspicious of their motives. If I thought I could get away with it, I would probably deny it and start walking in the other direction. I wish I didn't feel like I had to do that, but if someone is asking if I am transgender, there are a limited number of reasons why, many of which may lead to unfortunate consequences if I were to answer honestly. If the person who was asking outed themselves though, as a way of opening things up, I would enthusiastically say "Me too!" without too much hesitation. Personally, I usually enjoy meeting other transgender people, and I don't often get a chance to in real life. I think the transgender community as a whole is one of the nicest groups of people I have ever known, and even if being transgender is just one aspect of our lives, there are so many common experiences we share I'm sure I'd have no trouble thinking of something to talk about.
Quote from: Miyuki on October 16, 2015, 03:23:52 PM
I think one thing we have to remember, is that in order for us to be able to make progress, we have to be able to own our identities. I fully understand why transgender people almost universally want to pass and blend in, but if we go too far in that direction, we do it at out own expense. How many people do you think would be more accepting of those who are transgender if they knew one transgender person that was just a regular normal person in every other way? How many people already know a transgender person that meets that description, but never realize they are transgender?
I don't think we need to make being transgender our whole lives, but I don't buy into the idea of transitioning and moving on either. I think it should be okay for someone to be open about being transgender, and not something that turns a person into a public spectacle. And the only way we will ever get that, is if we are willing to make ourselves visible enough that people know who we are, and see that we are just normal people like anyone else.
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Miyuki:
I so totally agree with your point. Standing out versus blending in is a balancing act.
I attended and graduated college from a well-known, private Baptist university. Their policy expressly stated no homosexuals and transsexuals allowed among the students, faculty, and employees.
I went in knowing their policy, but I never told them of my background. I sought to prove exactly what you posted, Miyuki, that they needed to see me as another human being - 'just a regular normal person in every other way'. That I was on campus. I made friends among my class-mates, faculty, and other students. No one questioned my presence. No administrator summoned me to their office and told me that they were expelling me.
I am considering returning to that university and disclosing my background in some quiet fashion. Perhaps something as simple as an alumnae meeting, class re-union, or a post on their web-site. My anonymous attendance did not change their policy, but my quiet revelation might enlighten some. They certainly can't retract all my school work and grades - including 'Dean's List' for straight 'A' grades one semester.
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So is anyone in or near the quad cities area that might be interested in getting together once, to see how it goes? Anywhere near quad cities would work but I would be willing to travel a couple hours.
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I'm tired of people saying they "know" who's trans from looking, including other trans people saying this.
On the flip side I am glad when someone posts a thread asking for opinions rather than jump in assuming it'd be a-ok to approach a stranger with something like this.
I interact with hundreds of different people at work. Many women have one or more supposed "trans tells": coarse facial hair (this is surprisingly common), big adam's apple, masculine facial features, thick hand bones, uncommonly low voice, etc.
And for the guys: short, delicate features, a voice so high and feminine that I'd over the phone assume they were a woman, poor facial/body hair growth, big hips, feminine mannerisms, etc.
Sometimes there are customers that I'm unable to be sure from their features and presentation whether they're a man or a woman.
It would be statistically laughable to think they're all trans. With any specific customer, I do not know they are trans. What I know, is that the woman standing in front of me has a big jaw and a better mustache than I have, or this guy here sure is tiny, or what have you, but whether they're trans is none of my business and I don't know anything other than what I see. There are numerous medical conditions and simple human variation that would just as well account for these visual differences.
In my opinion: it's inappropriate to try to wiggle some sort of trans confession out of someone. It's not necessary to meet others with the condition, we have support groups and forums for that. It stands to make the person uncomfortable, and/or cause problems if you draw someone else's attention in the process. Out in public, no. In a work setting, fresh piping hot no with a side of don't do it, and some nope-nope-nope dipping sauce. I would be horrified if someone tried this "Hello there, by the way I am trans, wiiiiink, expectant pause" stuff at my work and extremely paranoid for days.
There's a difference between sharing information about yourself, and fishing for information. If it's inappropriate for cis people to approach us to try to figure out if we're trans, how is it appropriate for another trans person to do it?