Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello, everyone!  I'm nervous, but mostly excited as I am now packing for my trip to Rochester tomorrow.  I have to say another  big THANK YOU to everyone who has been a patient of Dr. Haben and Dr. Kim for being so generous in sharing their stories and answering questions which have helped people like me make the decision to go forward with vocal surgery. You are all doing a wonderful service for the community!

My plan for now is to go with the glottoplasty alone, and not do a trach shave or CTA because, 1)I think my voice is already on the high male/gender ambiguous side so I don't anticipate needing the extra pitch gain and 2)I play a wind instrument professionally so I want to be conservative with that area and go with the least invasive option.  If during the pre-op exam, he uncovers some reason that the CTA is necessary I will consider it, but it would have to be something pretty major for me to consider it, even though I've heard some stellar results from so many of you.

I took the pre-screening phone survey from the hospital today and hadn't considered that I won't be allowed to wear make-up, etc when they operate (duh) so I had to repack everything and I'll basically be traveling in boy-mode.  Felt a little strange at first but, I'm not 100% full-time (this is a big step in getting there!) and if it means I won't have to carry a bunch of extra stuff and deal with airline security I guess it's worth it.  But if anyone sees me there, I apologize for my appearance lol!

I plan to take the post operative instructions very seriously and I've spent the last week practicing being silent for hours at a time and how to clear phlegm without coughing.  I did catch a cold about 6 days ago but it seems to have subsided (phew) so everything feels normal at the moment.

I'll be more than happy to post updates as soon as I'm healthy enough to make a recording worth listening to.  In the meantime, here are two samples from today of my untrained and trained voices for later comparison.

Trained: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0UQxDlOHdgJ

Untrained: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Gdr8bvFqdA

Thanks again for all the support, and if you have any last minute tips I'd love to hear them :)

I wore makeup there and to Dr Haben's office pre surgical but didn't wear it the day of the surgery or for the flight back because I didn't have time to apply it. Should you have any more questions, let me know.

Quote from: Dena on October 19, 2015, 06:30:28 PM
I wore makeup there and to Dr Haben's office pre surgical but didn't wear it the day of the surgery or for the flight back because I didn't have time to apply it. Should you have any more questions, let me know.

Thanks!

Kwala:

Best wishes on your VFS. The best advise I can offer is to go way beyond the recommended "no talking" time. A month if possible to give things time to really bond and heal. you could ask for a slightly heavier gauge suture for additional resistance to fluids and whatnot. When you do start talking do start gently and short duration. Listen to what your body is telling you if your voice tires. It will give you the best possible outcome.

Hug's and happiness
Elaine

Quote from: Elaine S on October 20, 2015, 02:52:27 AM
Kwala:

Best wishes on your VFS. The best advise I can offer is to go way beyond the recommended "no talking" time. A month if possible to give things time to really bond and heal. you could ask for a slightly heavier gauge suture for additional resistance to fluids and whatnot. When you do start talking do start gently and short duration. Listen to what your body is telling you if your voice tires. It will give you the best possible outcome.

Hug's and happiness
Elaine

Thanks, I'll do my best to go above and beyond the after care protocol!

Good luck on your procedure! I too wore makeup during my consultation, and not going to lie, I definitely wore makeup during the actual surgery itself LOL (quite a bit of it). I just cannot go out in public in front of strangers without makeup, and that includes being in front of doctors/surgeons at a hospital. Either the staff did not mind my makeup or they didn't notice it.

Also your pre-op voice sounds really good! I have no doubt that the surgery will only benefit you.

Quote from: Roni on October 20, 2015, 07:25:58 AM
Good luck on your procedure! I too wore makeup during my consultation, and not going to lie, I definitely wore makeup during the actual surgery itself LOL (quite a bit of it). I just cannot go out in public in front of strangers without makeup, and that includes being in front of doctors/surgeons at a hospital. Either the staff did not mind my makeup or they didn't notice it.

Also your pre-op voice sounds really good! I have no doubt that the surgery will only benefit you.

Well, I'm at the airport already and while it felt a little strange because I'm usually only in boy mode at work. I do have to say it's nice to be traveling so lightly and not get any strange looks at security.  I was able to fit everything into one small back pack.  Thanks for the compliment.

Quote from: kwala on October 20, 2015, 08:02:22 AM

Well, I'm at the airport already and while it felt a little strange because I'm usually only in boy mode at work. I do have to say it's nice to be traveling so lightly and not get any strange looks at security.  I was able to fit everything into one small back pack.  Thanks for the compliment.

Have a safe trip! Beware of the TSA at the airport in Rochester.. they gave me a hard time on the way back home because I had "anomalies" with my body and was detained for 20 minutes. They pulled me aside and had me open all my luggage, as well as scan my body and hands to see if I had laced myself with anything... needless to say my mom was pissed. She was constantly telling them I was transgender but that didn't stop them from giving us a hard time. After it was clear that we weren't breaching anything security wise and were given the green light to enter the terminal, the TSA employees and the head of management still gave me dirty looks, probably because they weren't used to seeing trans people.

Quote from: Roni on October 20, 2015, 09:07:42 AM
Have a safe trip! Beware of the TSA at the airport in Rochester.. they gave me a hard time on the way back home because I had "anomalies" with my body and was detained for 20 minutes. They pulled me aside and had me open all my luggage, as well as scan my body and hands to see if I had laced myself with anything... needless to say my mom was pissed. She was constantly telling them I was transgender but that didn't stop them from giving us a hard time. After it was clear that we weren't breaching anything security wise and were given the green light to enter the terminal, the TSA employees and the head of management still gave me dirty looks, probably because they weren't used to seeing trans people.

I'm so sorry that happened!  Well, I am presenting as male on this trip so maybe it's for the best afterall that my appearance matched my ID.  Pre-op check is in a few hours so I'll post an update afterwards.

When I returned from Rochester the scanner was broken so they ran us through the old fashion metal detector and unlike the trip out, it was happy with my tummy and back. As far as I know, no airplanes fell out of the sky as the result of it.

Quote from: kwala on October 19, 2015, 05:44:00 PM
Hello, everyone!  I'm nervous, but mostly excited as I am now packing for my trip to Rochester tomorrow.  I have to say another  big THANK YOU to everyone who has been a patient of Dr. Haben and Dr. Kim for being so generous in sharing their stories and answering questions which have helped people like me make the decision to go forward with vocal surgery. You are all doing a wonderful service for the community!

My plan for now is to go with the glottoplasty alone, and not do a trach shave or CTA because, 1)I think my voice is already on the high male/gender ambiguous side so I don't anticipate needing the extra pitch gain and 2)I play a wind instrument professionally so I want to be conservative with that area and go with the least invasive option.  If during the pre-op exam, he uncovers some reason that the CTA is necessary I will consider it, but it would have to be something pretty major for me to consider it, even though I've heard some stellar results from so many of you.

I took the pre-screening phone survey from the hospital today and hadn't considered that I won't be allowed to wear make-up, etc when they operate (duh) so I had to repack everything and I'll basically be traveling in boy-mode.  Felt a little strange at first but, I'm not 100% full-time (this is a big step in getting there!) and if it means I won't have to carry a bunch of extra stuff and deal with airline security I guess it's worth it.  But if anyone sees me there, I apologize for my appearance lol!

I plan to take the post operative instructions very seriously and I've spent the last week practicing being silent for hours at a time and how to clear phlegm without coughing.  I did catch a cold about 6 days ago but it seems to have subsided (phew) so everything feels normal at the moment.

I'll be more than happy to post updates as soon as I'm healthy enough to make a recording worth listening to.  In the meantime, here are two samples from today of my untrained and trained voices for later comparison.

Trained: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0UQxDlOHdgJ

Untrained: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Gdr8bvFqdA

Thanks again for all the support, and if you have any last minute tips I'd love to hear them :)

I think you trained voice sounds great as is!
Good luck with the VFS

Jessi

Well, I am happy to report that I just underwent surgery with Dr. Haben.  I opted for the glottoplasty alone, he didn't think I needed the CTA and neither did I so we barely even discussed it.  I'm hoping to get the typical 7 half step increase which would put my mean speaking pitch right around middle C or the B just below it.

Surgery was pretty easy, woke up with a slight pain in my throat just as others have reported, but even though I was a bit loopy from the anesthesia I was able to remember to not talk.  I haven't made a sound all morning and the only little slip so far is I accidentally started to clear my throat while eating jell-o but I caught it right away so it was at least a small quiet one.  So far no coughing  *knocks on wood*

I have found Dr. Haben to be friendly and professional.  He explained in great detail how the procedure works, what to do for aftercare, and the risks.   He mentioned to me that although it is extremely rare, there have been times when sutures dissolve and the folds have not fused together and one is basically back to where they started from.  We've come a long way from some of the barbaric practices of the past to get to these new methods but even they are not 100% guaranteed to have a successful outcome.  I really feel for anyone who has not had their desired result due to a malfunction.  *Hugs*

Kwala:

I am so happy to hear that your surgery was smooth and uneventful. No one likes surgery but getting this done will likely remove stresses from your mind, either known or unperceived. I hope your recuperation goes smoothly and quickly.

The advice given here by so many regarding the recovery period is very good and if possible waiting an extended period of time before using your voice will help give your vocal cords more time to heal without the increased stress from use at the same time as healing in the early stage of your recuperation. 

Do not hesitate to call Dr Haben for a refill of the narcotic cough medicine before you run out. Some are more prone to coughing that others but it is better to have a bottle left over and unneeded after your recovery than needing it in the middle of the night and not being able to get a prescription called in.

Sleeping with your head elevated will definitely help keep your throat more clear of mucous and phlegm than lying flat or side sleeping. Getting a tickle at night might produce a cough that doesn't awake you but doing everything possible to minimize the chance is worth the hassle of any small discomfort. It will also minimize the possibility of acid reflux too. Breathing through your nose as much as possible will help keep your throat from drying out as much as breathing by mouth.

You may have read about the stitch from my surgery coming out at the 5 week +2 day mark. I still haven't been able to pinpoint any reason. It was even very early in the morning, about 1 am and I was up and tapping out a letter on the computer to a friend. It was a prickly tickle and I breathed the "H" sound and out came a bit of phlegm with the top knot of the stitch inside it. I just happened to look at it as it felt a little spikey so I look at it. The knot was not untied, the suture material seemed to have dissolved on the ends.

Anyway, I am going back on the 8th of Dec for a pre op consult and the following day for surgery. Depending on the outcome of the consult, I may well need to do have CTA to get the result I wish. Though I hope to avoid another scar and my thyroid bone is not prominent, it is a small thing to have to deal with to get the result I want. The scar will fade to nothing in a fairly short time if indeed a CTA is deemed necessary. Regardless, a heavier, longer lasting suture will be used this time.

With reasonable care taken during your recovery, I doubt you will have any issues at all. It is very easy to be anxious about things, I am really bad about things sometimes, but just keep in the front of your mind that your convalescence will be but a short time compared to having a lifetime of a nice voice.

On my pre-op visit, I'm going to take a comprehensive list of my typical diet as it is pretty predictable, outside of the occasional lunch or dinner out, for a line by line yes or no from Dr Haben. Probably an overkill, but in an effort to help the healing process it is a small sacrifice. But, as before, spicy and ascitic food and drinks are out for a few months at the very least. Avoiding alcohol would probably be a wise thing too and of course smoking of any sort is completely counterproductive.

One kind of funny thing that did help was when my wife went throughout (seriously, everywhere, in closets, the laundry room, both sides of the door to the garage, etc) the house and put up pieces of paper saying in big letters "DO NOT TALK". Perhaps silly sounding they were everywhere and they were a constant visual reminder to keep quiet. It did help.

Talking is something we take for granted and it is automatic and mindless done every day for all of us that are able speak. It is difficult to break the habit of simply answering any query but anything you can do to give yourself as much time to heal as possible will ensure the best possible outcome for you. It will also give you some insight into how those that are unable to speak live their lives. It is a consciousness raising experience. 

I guess having to go through the recovery after the surgery is yet another of the things we have to just deal with to get ourselves like we should have been from the start. Perhaps catching up on some reading or reacquainting your self with a hobby or musical instrument if you played something like guitar to piano may help pass the time creatively and productively.

Again, my most sincere best wishes to you and also any others that have already gone through or those that are going through VFS. I hope your goals are exceeded by your final results.

Be safe. Hug's and Happiness
Elaine 

Quote from: Elaine S on October 21, 2015, 08:50:26 PM
Kwala:

I am so happy to hear that your surgery was smooth and uneventful...

Thank you for the wise words, Elaine.  I really hope the second time around goes much better for you. 

If you wanted to get another bottle of the cough medicine, be sure to do it before leaving the state of New York. I had emailed Dr Haben to ask for a refill but he said he was not able to send prescriptions across different states as it is federally illegal to do so. I had no choice but to settle for over-the-counter Robitussin, which in my opinion is not as effective as pharmacy prescribed cough medicine.

Quote from: Elaine S on October 21, 2015, 08:50:26 PM
Anyway, I am going back on the 8th of Dec for a pre op consult and the following day for surgery. Depending on the outcome of the consult, I may well need to do have CTA to get the result I wish. Though I hope to avoid another scar and my thyroid bone is not prominent, it is a small thing to have to deal with to get the result I want. The scar will fade to nothing in a fairly short time if indeed a CTA is deemed necessary. Regardless, a heavier, longer lasting suture will be used this time.

I am a bit confused at this point. So did your vocal folds not fuse together despite part of the sutures coming off later in the healing process, at the 5 week mark? I was under the impression that past a certain point in healing, it did not matter whether some of the stitches came off because the chords would have already conjoined?

Quote from: Roni on October 22, 2015, 01:24:40 AM
If you wanted to get another bottle of the cough medicine, be sure to do it before leaving the state of New York. I had emailed Dr Haben to ask for a refill but he said he was not able to send prescriptions across different states as it is federally illegal to do so. I had no choice but to settle for over-the-counter Robitussin, which in my opinion is not as effective as pharmacy prescribed cough medicine.

Might not be able to do it with the cough medicine because it's a narcotic but my roommate was on a number of medications and once they were in the Walmart computer, we could fill them anywhere in the United States.

Roni:
Good point about the prescriptions across state lines. I forgot my GP, in a midwestern state won't refill me on pain meds for my back and. I will get a refill from Dr Haben while there but before I leave as I will likely have to have a follow up visit in 8 days post-op if a CTA is done. Have to wait and see about that.

I too thought that the vocal folds were pretty much adhered by the 4 week mark and when the stitch popped out at 5 weeks and 2 days, there was a pain of perhaps 2.5-3 out of 10 and it lasted for a few days. The immediate effect was a loss of a measurable amount of pitch (and regrettably my giggle was gone(:-<). Dr Haben said to relax as it takes at least 3 months to be able to see a real result. So I did.

When I sent him my recording at the 3 month (actually 13 weeks) mark he said i was (direct quote here): "You are at B3, or around 240 hertz, dead center in the average female range!  Yes, it is certainly hoarse, likely from persisting inflammation from the suture, which may take 6+ months to resolve.  Patience!.. If you are concerned, have a local ENT who can scope AND send me a picture to confirm what is going on, versus waiting, or coming back here for the follow-up.  The voice should come.  Patience, patience, patience!  B3 !!!".

I am not sure how that the level of pitch is measured from the recording of the rainbow passage and the sustained EEEEEE. When I did both they were in as normal a voice as I could, neither adding or subtracting and for the EEEE thing I did not go for a super effort as I have really tried to not hurt things. I know that I am my own worst critic, by far, but I have lost some, though not all of the pitch gain from when the stitch came out and a good deal of hoarseness has returned so it may have something to do with the asymmetry thing. it proved all but impossible to get an ENT here in SW FL to scope and take a pix to send to Dr Haben. The only one that had the capability to do so SPECIFICALLY said he would not forward it. Medical care here is crap. I am on Medicare from a career ending bizarre injury and just pay out of pocket as I think medicare is pretty much "DEADNOCARE" for the good it does me.

In another response I mentioned that my hoarseness was related to an asymmetry in my vocal cords, something he addressed in surgery and as previously mentioned at the 9 day mark, talking in a calm and normal voice, it was a marked improvement over my previous one. I haven't measured my voice in a month or more as it hasn't changed. When I used PRAAT I used the AVERAGE (drawing a line between the middle of the highs and lows) for my analysis and then of course the EEEE or other steady state vowel or consonant sounds are easy to suss out.

Again, the 9 day post-op clip from early June, not great but 9 days? I'll take it... Dr Haben said my everyday voice was about 160htz pre-op, to start with but I thought my voice was really poor sounding and got sired about 50% of the time on the phone.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1BBzLgrTIJ1

Be safe and my very best wishes to you.
Elaine

Dena:

Your point about Walmart is excellent and is how I am able to get my Rx's done here rather than travel back to see my GP for every little thing. Dr. Haben may or may not be able/want to do that with a narcotic.

Be safe and enjoy the day.
Elaine

Quote from: Roni on October 22, 2015, 01:24:40 AM
If you wanted to get another bottle of the cough medicine, be sure to do it before leaving the state of New York. I had emailed Dr Haben to ask for a refill but he said he was not able to send prescriptions across different states as it is federally illegal to do so. I had no choice but to settle for over-the-counter Robitussin, which in my opinion is not as effective as pharmacy prescribed cough medicine.

Yeah that's controlled substances only I think.

However regular scrips go across state lines all the time. I go to my endo in NY and get my hormones filled in NJ.

For refills for controlled substances in NY you need to get a dr visit because of state law. I would imagine that's probably why Dr H had that stipulation.

Quote from: iKate on October 22, 2015, 07:40:11 AM
Yeah that's controlled substances only I think.

However regular scrips go across state lines all the time. I go to my endo in NY and get my hormones filled in NJ.

For refills for controlled substances in NY you need to get a dr visit because of state law. I would imagine that's probably why Dr H had that stipulation.

Ahh ok, that should explain it. Well my point still stands. Since cough medicine is controlled, be sure to get another refill before leaving New York. I feel like Robitussin and Mucinex (both recommended by Dr Haben as he could not send me a cough syrup prescription) are both subpar, and in my opinion actually made my phlegm slightly harder to deal with. Both over-the-counter drugs thin out your mucus, making it more watery, and in my case the watery "drip" like feeling at the back of my throat and lungs probably worsened my coughing. I stopped taking both drugs the last two days and must say I have not been coughing as much. Coincidence or not I will never truly know.

Quote from: Elaine S on October 22, 2015, 07:06:46 AM
In another response I mentioned that my hoarseness was related to an asymmetry in my vocal cords, something he addressed in surgery and as previously mentioned at the 9 day mark, talking in a calm and normal voice, it was a marked improvement over my previous one. I haven't measured my voice in a month or more as it hasn't changed. When I used PRAAT I used the AVERAGE (drawing a line between the middle of the highs and lows) for my analysis and then of course the EEEE or other steady state vowel or consonant sounds are easy to suss out.

Again, the 9 day post-op clip from early June, not great but 9 days? I'll take it... Dr Haben said my everyday voice was about 160htz pre-op, to start with but I thought my voice was really poor sounding and got sired about 50% of the time on the phone.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1BBzLgrTIJ1

Be safe and my very best wishes to you.
Elaine

At 9 days that is a pretty fantastic recording. My voice for the first two weeks was nothing more than a whisper. The recording is on the low end of female but what is lacking is inflection. It's hitting the high notes and range of frequencies that says FEMALE. The pitch could go lower and as long as the range and high notes are in there it would remain  female.

The following chart if you don't already have it will help you understand the Praat information better.
http://www.nyspeechandvoicelab.net/transgender/voice-feminization/

Dena:

Thank you for the linkie. I added it to my collection.

Be safe and I hope you have a wonderful day.
Elaine

Well, my post-op check up went very well and I had a safe and easy flight home.  Time to stock up on movies and keep my lips zipped for a few weeks (at the very least)!

Quote from: kwala on October 22, 2015, 09:36:03 PM
Well, my post-op check up went very well and I had a safe and easy flight home.  Time to stock up on movies and keep my lips zipped for a few weeks (at the very least)!

That's awesome! If you don't have a humidifier at home already, I would consider getting one.

I bought a humidifier today upon Audree's recommendation. I used to cough about once every hour, but I have NOT COUGHED since turning it on 6 hours ago! It's a pretty bittersweet moment as I know I won't be struggling with coughing issues any further, but at the same time I'm kind of angry at myself for not having bought a humidifier earlier. My voice definitely sounds higher than it was, but who knows how much of a pitch increase I have lost in the long run having been coughing the last week.

If you're ever facing a cough you cannot suppress, be sure to breath out FIRST, and THEN cough WHILE breathing out. I actually read this technique on Yeson's VFS website. When you cough while breathing out, you put less strain on your vocal folds than if you had just let a sudden burst of air erupt from hacking out a quick cough. Wish Dr. Haben had told me about this technique also.

Additionally, if you ever decide to supplement yourself with over-the-counter drugs, there are certainly better options to choose from in my opinion. I believe Sudafed worked a LOT better for me. It clears congestion in your sinus canals, as opposed to Mucinex or Robitussin which aim to "water down" your mucus, making it a lot more difficult for me to suppress my coughs actually.

Have a speedy recovery and keep us all updated! <3

Quote from: Roni on October 23, 2015, 03:13:10 AM

That's awesome! If you don't have a humidifier at home already, I would consider getting one.

I bought a humidifier today upon Audree's recommendation. I used to cough about once every hour, but I have NOT COUGHED since turning it on 6 hours ago! It's a pretty bittersweet moment as I know I won't be struggling with coughing issues any further, but at the same time I'm kind of angry at myself for not having bought a humidifier earlier. My voice definitely sounds higher than it was, but who knows how much of a pitch increase I have lost in the long run having been coughing the last week.

If you're ever facing a cough you cannot suppress, be sure to breath out FIRST, and THEN cough WHILE breathing out. I actually read this technique on Yeson's VFS website. When you cough while breathing out, you put less strain on your vocal folds than if you had just let a sudden burst of air erupt from hacking out a quick cough. Wish Dr. Haben had told me about this technique also.

Additionally, if you ever decide to supplement yourself with over-the-counter drugs, there are certainly better options to choose from in my opinion. I believe Sudafed worked a LOT better for me. It clears congestion in your sinus canals, as opposed to Mucinex or Robitussin which aim to "water down" your mucus, making it a lot more difficult for me to suppress my coughs actually.

Have a speedy recovery and keep us all updated! <3

Thanks for all the tips, I already have a humidifier as well as an air purifier so I'm covered there.  So far I haven't had a real cough, but a few times I've accidentally cleared a bit of phlegm while breathing.  Totally gentle so I'm not worried, but I will continue to watch more closely and remain as silent as possible.  I was actually able to run several errands and go grocery shopping by myself without saying a word to anyone! I never realized how much spicy food I keep around the house.  I found it necessary to stock up on some more mild items to keep my stomach acids at bay for the next few weeks.  The suspense is killing me, but I'm determined to give my cords the best chance to heal in the most optimal way.   

I forgot to mention earlier that I did have a very very tiny chip in one of my upper front teeth.  It's not noticeable and the only reason I even noticed it is because I ran my tongue over the area after surgery and could feel a small jagged and sharp patch where a tiny shard of enamel had fallen off.  Not something I'm concerned about, it's only visible when I'm pressed right up against the mirror and I'm sure it will get worn down the more I eat and brush, but just thought I'd mention it for folks considering this surgery in the future.

I had my teeth chipped twice but not by Dr Haben. One time I ran into a window air conditioner and the other time I bit down wrong. Both times the dentist touched it up so the sharp edge was gone. The prilosec will solve the problems with stomach acid but if you cough or have to clear your throat as the result of the spicy food, that's not a good thing. I went to a soft food diet with things that wouldn't get stuck on the way down and I was really happy at the 3+ week mark when we had a family outing at a Mexican food place and I could eat something exciting.

Yeah stay away from spicy food! I really thought I could handle it (I LOVE spicy food), but always felt like coughing every time I swallowed the food.

rest that voice. wait till your like 2 months post op and use to your new voice. your going to be so excited  :)

Quote from: Roni on October 25, 2015, 02:00:47 AM
Yeah stay away from spicy food! I really thought I could handle it (I LOVE spicy food), but always felt like coughing every time I swallowed the food.

I stayed away from it as well but I never feel like coughing with spicy food unless it goes down the wrong pipe. And I'm talking Caribbean spicy... scorpion peppers, curry etc.

If you need more cough medicine, you might ask your personal doctor if he/she can renew it one time. I did an internet search on the stuff and it can be really nasty stuff and that's why it has the controlled substance label on it. The maximum safe dose is what Dr Haben list on the bottle and some people can only tolerate half that dose.
The proper name of the cough medicine is Generic TUSSIONEX Pennkinetic Extended-Release Suspension

So I finally made it to post-operative day 8 and tried to say a few words today.  Nothing much to report as I barely have a voice lol.  The best I could produce was a scratchy whisper that barely has any tone to it.  I'm going to give it a few more days before I try again.  Looks like I won't be one of the super fast healers, but that's okay with me :)  Hopefully next time there will be at least a little more substance so I can comment on the pitch level.

Yeah day 8 I had pretty much no voice too. Best of luck with you recovery!

The first 2 1/2 weeks, you are are on limited voice usage. I really couldn't figure out what that was but as my voice wasn't working, I limited that time to a few words of testing and left it at that. Don't get in a big hurry for the voice because it will still take a month or two before it is anywhere near the final pitch. At 3 months, I think my voice still has a little more pitch to give but I admit I am getting tired of waiting for it.  ;D

Quote from: Roni on October 22, 2015, 09:55:44 AM
Ahh ok, that should explain it. Well my point still stands. Since cough medicine is controlled, be sure to get another refill before leaving New York. I feel like Robitussin and Mucinex (both recommended by Dr Haben as he could not send me a cough syrup prescription) are both subpar, and in my opinion actually made my phlegm slightly harder to deal with. Both over-the-counter drugs thin out your mucus, making it more watery, and in my case the watery "drip" like feeling at the back of my throat and lungs probably worsened my coughing. I stopped taking both drugs the last two days and must say I have not been coughing as much. Coincidence or not I will never truly know.

I had no idea you were a Haben girl? i need to visit this site more often. Im glad so many people are starting to pick him.

Quote from: warmbody28 on November 01, 2015, 01:47:18 AM
I had no idea you were a Haben girl? i need to visit this site more often. Im glad so many people are starting to pick him.

Yes! Haben girl here! It's a bit too early to decide whether I will be singing praises about Dr Haben just yet, as I am only 2.5 weeks post-op. As it stands my pitch hasn't gone up that much, if at all. However it seems my lower ranges have diminished and it is currently harder for me to go down to my natural male voice. Additionally, it has proven a LOT easier for me to reach and maintain my trained voice. It also seems a little easier for me to control chest resonance. But as for the actual pitch increase, which is what I wanted from the surgery in the first place, not too hot about the results at the moment.

But I will analyze the success of my results in 1-2 months, after letting my vocal chords heal.

So I made a post a few days ago that somehow disappeared, but I'll try again.
I'm at 18 days post op so I thought I would give an update.  My voice is still very very weak, almost non existent.  I've barely been speaking at all but the few times I try I get a tiny bit of tone for the the first few words and then it's all breathy.  The tiny bits of tone before the voice gives out are definitely higher than what I expected to come out so it seems like this is going to work out well! Now I just have to keep being disciplined and stay quiet.

I have resumed clarinet playing since I have to go back to work tomorrow and everything feels totally normal which is a huge relief!  Even if I don't get the pitch elevation I'm hoping for, I'll be grateful for any boost I do get knowing that my career wasn't jeopardized in the process:)

Another victim of the server hard drive crash.

We seem to be seeing a batch of people who are more like me and are taking longer to recover from surgery. It appears the people who went before me were luckier and had a much faster recovery. The voice will get better as time goes on so just relax and try not to use it until it's ready.

I'm sure it will heal as time goes on. Just don't go out too much during your recovery because it's cold and flu season. I know it's difficult to keep silent, I've been resting my voice for over the last 6 weeks, and now I'm getting used to not talking.

I spent the last two days at the Blizzcon convention center in Anaheim and did a lot of talking (and drinking, I know, I know, broke the rules big time), and my voice seemed to have done just fine. People I was introduced to who would find out I was trans said they couldn't believe I wasn't born female, and that how even if some trans girls looked good, you could tell by their voice. I took that as a compliment that my voice was passable enough lol.

But anyway, did a lot of talking the last two days and it is a LOT easier and (most importantly) a lot more relaxed to talk in a trained voice. By trained voice all I did was control chest resonance and I didn't have to pay attention to increasing or controlling my pitch. As it stands my voice is only a bit higher (~20 Hz). Subtle increase in pitch but it seems more than enough that now I only have to watch for resonance and can ignore any issues with pitch.

I was in the androgynous area beforehand at 160 Hz and the small 20 Hz increase just locked my natural voice into a comfortable female pitch at 180 Hz. If I chose to *actually* manually increase my pitch, which is what I do for work, I can get it to 240-260 Hz.

I am close to a month post-op now and wish I would have gotten a bit more of an increase. It seems most women got the majority of their increase after the first month, and then further increase as the weeks go by. But I'm still waiting out the next couple of weeks to see what happens. Either way, the surgery was definitely for the better.

I am not into video games but you were less than 3 miles away from where I lived when I transitioned. I lived about 34 years in Anaheim near the convention center.

Quote from: Dena on November 08, 2015, 07:30:06 PM
I am not into video games but you were less than 3 miles away from where I lived when I transitioned. I lived about 34 years in Anaheim near the convention center.

Nice! Yeah, gamer girl at heart here. I was about to say if you lived near the convention still I wouldn't have minded meeting you next year when I return for Blizzcon 2016!

Quote from: Roni on November 08, 2015, 07:54:05 PM
Nice! Yeah, gamer girl at heart here. I was about to say if you lived near the convention still I wouldn't have minded meeting you next year when I return for Blizzcon 2016!

So, today is officially 3 weeks after my surgery and I STILL cannot produce anything more than a whisper.  I'm a bit concerned.  I know, I know, we all heal differently but in all but one of the recordings I've heard from Haben patients, they've at least been able to speak with some amount of tone, even if it's hoarse and breathy by this time or earlier.  If I still can't speak at all by the 1 month mark I think I should email Dr. Haben and see what's going on.  I really hope I don't end up like Lunarain who was unable to speak at all for many months.

We had several people in a row who recovered quickly form the surgery and that gave everybody high expectations about the surgery. Dr Haben has said it can take 3 to 6 months for the voice to stabilize. While I can talk, at almost 4 months, my voice is still healing because I have slight pain and hoarseness when I use the voice very much. I was two weeks before my cords would vibrate and then my voice was very weak for almost 5 weeks when it started to recover. Then at 5 weeks the sutures were attacked by my body and I lost all that I had gained.

I really want to start working on my final voice but I can't do it a few minutes at a time until my voice fails. Dr Haben sometime give a 1 month time out to people who have had more extensive work done so they don't hear the voice before it's had time to heal. I ask him about a longer period for me and he said it wasn't necessary for me but as slow as my recover has been, I think 3 months time out for me would have been a good thing.

I'm near 5 months post op yeson and I'm still improving. I have a 1 month recording and a later one in the yeson thread I would say a full year is needed for your final final voice.

I also get the "I wouldn't have known" too. I won't go into details but sometimes my own ability to pass amazes even me.

Kwala, don't worry, I'm sure you'll be fine. I was so paranoid and anxious during those initial weeks of recovery, so you're not alone. For some people, it just takes longer to get the voice back for some reason. Yes, Lunarain's recovery took a long time, but she got her voice back at the end, that's what matters the most! :)

Thanks for the words of encouragement , ladies!  I know I have to be patient it's just frustrating to be completely unable to speak.  I don't have to talk much at work but it was really awkward the last few days when people would say hello and I'd just wave and smile lol.  My good friends know, but for those who don't I just said I had some vocal nodules removed.  Other people just assumed I had a cold and I didn't bother correcting them.

My voice was so weak for a while that I continued to carry my note pad and pen. The common theme was voice out of order ;D

Girl you will be fine! Just a little slower when it comes to healing, but girls here including I have gotten anxious during the initial healing period and we are fine now.

I am two days away from being a month post-op. While I am able to converse for hours a day, my voice is still not as clear as it was pre-op, and it gets tiring to talk after a while. I always end up having to take vocal breaks for periods during the day. But it is a lot easier for me to reach trained voice now.

I am returning to work in 4 weeks, and I am using the next 4 weeks to do complete voice rest in hopes that I will have a clear voice when I return to work in December. I too didn't expect how long of a recovery I would need because as Dena said, there were people here who healed super fast and it gave us a skewered perception on the healing process.

Best of luck to you my dear, and I'm sure when everything is all healed and done, your voice will sound lovely! I remember you having an already passable trained voice pre-op.

Quote from: iKate on November 11, 2015, 04:13:51 PM
I'm near 5 months post op yeson and I'm still improving. I have a 1 month recording and a later one in the yeson thread I would say a full year is needed for your final final voice.

I also get the "I wouldn't have known" too. I won't go into details but sometimes my own ability to pass amazes even me.

I'm sure it's not only the voice at this point! It helps that you don't look masculine. :)

Quote from: kwala on November 11, 2015, 04:58:47 PM
Thanks for the words of encouragement , ladies!  I know I have to be patient it's just frustrating to be completely unable to speak.  I don't have to talk much at work but it was really awkward the last few days when people would say hello and I'd just wave and smile lol.  My good friends know, but for those who don't I just said I had some vocal nodules removed.  Other people just assumed I had a cold and I didn't bother correcting them.

Yes, that gets old. Especially someone like me where people assume you aren't talking because you don't speak English. I even had one gas station attendant try to touch me. I pulled away from him. (why do I attract such creeps is beyond me).

However I've found creative ways to interact with people and my smartphone thumbs are like lightning anyway (some of my long posts here are on my iPhone).

I just wrote, "I lost my voice." That's it. I didn't explain to people at all except my friends and close colleagues.

Quote from: iKate on November 11, 2015, 08:50:11 PM
Yes, that gets old. Especially someone like me where people assume you aren't talking because you don't speak English. I even had one gas station attendant try to touch me. I pulled away from him. (why do I attract such creeps is beyond me).

However I've found creative ways to interact with people and my smartphone thumbs are like lightning anyway (some of my long posts here are on my iPhone).

I just wrote, "I lost my voice." That's it. I didn't explain to people at all except my friends and close colleagues.

Major EWWW about the gas station attendant!  Glad you were able to pull back.

*****

So, I made a very brief recording today as there has been a tiny bit of improvement.  I don't expect this to be anywhere near representative of the final voice but I thought I should probably put it out there to track my progress and also to give an idea of what the voice can sound like during the healing process for those considering surgery.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1c0r76fhuw0

Mean frequency is 253 hertz but I take that with a grain of salt. I think a lot of the tone is unintentional overtones popping out and, while this sounds gross, I have a feeling that the build up of phlegm is vibrating more than my actual cords lol so we will see how it sounds when I'm stronger and the site has stabilized. Now back to being quiet!  I actually made it through the entire work day without saying a word.  Some people may have thought I was being rude by avoiding everyone but my voice comes first and now I have the whole weekend to be a shut-in and rest up.

Voice is still pretty rough from the surgery to be expected. I make the pitch out to be around 220 hz which is still pretty good considering you will gain a bit more over the next month or two. Judging from my voice, you should see at least 10 to 20 Hz more as the voice recovers. I think you got your moneys worth out of the surgery and now all you need is for it to heal so you can use it.

Note the way I figured the pitch was to match it with my own voice and check it with my pitch meter on the phone. I don't have a trained musical ear so this may be a bit rough on the guess.

Quote from: Dena on November 13, 2015, 09:15:32 PM
Voice is still pretty rough from the surgery to be expected. I make the pitch out to be around 220 hz which is still pretty good considering you will gain a bit more over the next month or two. Judging from my voice, you should see at least 10 to 20 Hz more as the voice recovers. I think you got your moneys worth out of the surgery and now all you need is for it to heal so you can use it.

Note the way I figured the pitch was to match it with my own voice and check it with my pitch meter on the phone. I don't have a trained musical ear so this may be a bit rough on the guess.

Well, I'm a musician with three degrees and I have absolute pitch (meaning I can name any note any time I hear it without reference- Dr. Haben even tested me on his piano lol) and to be sure I actually used praat so I'm absolutely certain of the measurement.  Though, as I said there are some false overtones present due to the hoarseness that I expect to diminish as the swelling goes down. 

Just a tip, but using your own voice (which can vary greatly on its own)as a base and "guestimating" the pitch of another voice in a side by side comparison is not at all a good way to get a measurement.  Especially when you consider that hertz measurements are not absolute in scale and increase exponentially and we are talking about the average, not isolated notes.   If you don't want to use praat, a slightly better (but still not fool proof) way would be to use a piano or any app or instrument that can create a stable drone so at least you have an absolute base to compare from. And that's also assuming you have some degree of relative pitch knowledge.

Sounds pretty good for three weeks, at least you can talk now! Your final voice will probably sound completely different once it heals.

Quote from: jollyjoy on November 13, 2015, 10:43:39 PM
Sounds pretty good for three weeks, at least you can talk now! Your final voice will probably sound completely different once it heals.

Yeah, that's what I think, too.  Right now is mostly just crackling noise lol so this really isn't representative of the final product.

I think it will stabilize and what you hear today is not representative of what the final product will be. That said it seems to be on the right track.

Tomorrow will be the four week mark since my surgery and I still can't speak above a whisper.  I'll be sending Dr. Haben an update and voice sample to see what he says.  I have been following all of the instructions and resting my voice as much as possible.  Hopefully I'll be able to produce a real sound soon.  Even if it's hoarse and scratchy!

This means you still have surgical laryngitis. Mine suddenly went away around six and a half weeks after hearing some deep, weird sounds. Before that, my voice was also whispery. You should be fine, but it wouldn't hurt to check with Dr. Haben.

Quote from: jollyjoy on November 17, 2015, 02:07:46 PM
This means you still have surgical laryngitis. Mine suddenly went away around six and a half weeks after hearing some deep, weird sounds. Before that, my voice was also whispery. You should be fine, but it wouldn't hurt to check with Dr. Haben.

I really hope this goes away soon.  I'll be five weeks in a few more days and still can't produce anything that doesn't sound like a whisper.  I emailed Dr. Haben last Wednesday and still have not gotten a response.  I knew my voice would be rough sounding for a while but I really didn't anticipate having NO voice after the one month mark.

I had for two weeks after surgery but because I was aware it could happen for an extended period of time - a month or more, I didn't worry about it.

After 1 month, I barely had a voice. Cashiers couldn't even hear me when I went out. I know your anxious feeling way too well having experienced it myself. You're a slow healer like me, you'll be fine.

Quote from: jollyjoy on November 22, 2015, 03:36:28 PM
After 1 month, I barely had a voice. Cashiers couldn't even hear me when I went out. I know your anxious feeling way too well having experienced it myself. You're a slow healer like me, you'll be fine.

Thanks for letting me know that!  Today my bank called about a transaction they thought was fraudulent and they couldn't understand anything I was saying. It was so frustrating I momentarily lost it.

Well, I finally heard back from Dr. Haben.  He seems to think everything is fine and I am just a slow healer. Everyone reacts differently to the stitches and I am most likely still very swollen.  I really hope my voice comes back soon though.  I have phone calls and things I've been putting off for forever that need my attention.  I tried to order carry out for lunch today and after trying to get my order across twice I just hung up and decided to eat something at home lol.

Pizza shops often allow you to do an internet order if they are big. Only once did I have to call them when they had a glitch in the system and didn't know my zip code. The store I was ordering from is in the same zipped but they switched ordering systems and the new system still wasn't right.

Quote from: Dena on November 23, 2015, 04:03:46 PM
Pizza shops often allow you to do an internet order if they are big. Only once did I have to call them when they had a glitch in the system and didn't know my zip code. The store I was ordering from is in the same zipped but they switched ordering systems and the new system still wasn't right.

Thanks, I've done plenty of online ordering, I just wasn't really thinking and called this sandwich place I haven't had in a while which is sort of old fashioned and doesn't really have an internet presence.  For some reason in the moment I had forgotten how difficult it would be to place an order lol.  Anyway, thanks everyone for reminding me to be patient.  I hadn't planned on being voiceless for this long but I have to adjust my expectations and trust it'll all be worth it soon enough :)

I've been tracking results for over a year and when you hear everyone else starting to progress at the one month mark and you, yourself, still can't produce real sound at that point you start to freak out and think that something has gone wrong.  However, as you have all helped to remind me, we all heal and react differently so I just have to trust the doctor and stay calm.

That was the story of my life for several weeks.

Quote from: kwala on November 23, 2015, 07:05:31 PMwhen you hear everyone else starting to progress at the one month mark and you, yourself, still can't produce real sound at that point you start to freak out and think that something has gone wrong. 

Quote from: Roni on November 08, 2015, 05:14:14 PM
I spent the last two days at the Blizzcon convention center in Anaheim and did a lot of talking...

OMG! Do you play any games? I'm playing waaaay too much Heroes of the Storm right now. It totally consumes all of my free time... How was the con? One of my guy friends was gonna go, but he didnt have anyone to go with--didnt think I was interested, but I definitely want to try next year!

Anyhow, just so we don't get off topic... a little serious note: I do find myself having to cough every so often... I mean I can't help it but it's a sudden cough, I think from phlegmatic buildup. To remedy this I've been taking the cough syrup, popped a couple ibuprofen, and been taking some cough drops for extra help. I imagine avoiding to cough 100% of the time is unavoidable.

Also, Jax was telling me that I snore when I sleep and have this gulpy-choky sound. I've been using nasal strips at  night...though I guess nothing to be concerned about.

Audree

The way I controlled coughs was regular sips of cold water with a straw. I would use ice water, warm the water for a few seconds in my mouth and swallow. If done correctly you will make many trips to the bathroom. Next, when you feel the urge to cough, lean forward and exhale quickly with your vocal cords open. While not as good as a cough, it will clear out enough junk to kill the cough.

You want to limit coughs as much as possible but they aren't the end of the world unless you have a coughing fit. The other advantage you will have is that Dr Haben will take another look at the surgery before you leave so you will know how the healing is progressing.

I sleep on my side and don't role in my sleep so I used my pillow to block my mouth shut to eliminate all snoring and dry air from my mouth. Snoring is produced without the vocal cords so they should be safe from physical damage but the dry air may make you want to clear out the nights accumulation when you wake up.

Quote from: audreelyn on November 27, 2015, 12:56:08 PM

Anyhow, just so we don't get off topic... a little serious note: I do find myself having to cough every so often... I mean I can't help it but it's a sudden cough, I think from phlegmatic buildup. To remedy this I've been taking the cough syrup, popped a couple ibuprofen, and been taking some cough drops for extra help. I imagine avoiding to cough 100% of the time is unavoidable.

Also, Jax was telling me that I snore when I sleep and have this gulpy-choky sound. I've been using nasal strips at  night...though I guess nothing to be concerned about.

Audree

Playing Street Fighter 4 has really helped me pass time during my recovery.  Sometimes gamer guys will send hate mail when I beat them and I can't resist the urge to tell them they got beat by a girl.  It drives them crazy.

I second what Dena said about sipping water through a straw.  I kept a glass near me all the time and any time I felt a slight tickle like I might cough I would take a few sips and 9 times out of 10 I was able to control it.  Hope your checkup goes well and I wish you a much speedier recovery than mine.  I'm at 5.5 weeks and still functionally voiceless.  I'm sure you'll recover much more quickly but just be prepared that it may take longer than you were expecting :)

Well this is my 6 week update, but there really isn't anything to update.  I still can barely make sound.  It's really unusual to be unable to speak at this stage and Dr. Haben agrees so I'm going to see about getting a scope done to provide further insight.  I never imagined I'd still be totally voiceless at the 6 week mark, but here we are.  I wish I could make a trip to Rochester but I've already used up my vacation time and flights this last minute around the holidays are through the roof.

Well I think it's safe to say despite some people having had successful surgeries with Dr. Haben, there are an equal number of girls who have had troubling complications. Not sure why this has happened. Bad luck on Dr. Haben's part maybe?

Kwala, let's hope your issue is something that can be fixed with time, just like Jolly's.

Quote from: Roni on December 02, 2015, 01:40:13 PM
Well I think it's safe to say despite some people having had successful surgeries with Dr. Haben, there are an equal number of girls who have had troubling complications. Not sure why this has happened. Bad luck on Dr. Haben's part maybe?

Kwala, let's hope your issue is something that can be fixed with time, just like Jolly's.

Yeah, I really hope so, too.  It is possible that I'm just really swollen like lunarain, but another issue that Dr. Haben brought up is that I may have developed granulation tissue over the sutured cite.  It's basically tissue growth that can appear over an injury or in this case the laser assisted web.  If that's the case, this new tissue could be preventing the cords from coming together.  I've been taking ibuprofen for the past two weeks and that doesn't seem to have helped, so I wondered if a stronger corticosteroid might be helpful, such as prednisone.  Who knows at this point?  I've been trying to find a local ENT who can perform a laryngoscopy so we can finally get some answers.  I can't completely give up hope that I'm just really, REALLY swollen and it will come down, but I also think I should have at least seen some improvement by this point.  I should point out that I have been pretty good about following the rules.  Keeping to myself at work, staying in my house instead of socializing, haven't had any alcohol, took all the prescription meds exactly as prescribed, etc...It appears my body has just not cooperated with the stitches and the web creation.  Hopefully we'll be able to find a solution soon.  Just for reference, here's another recording.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s118uvbad6l8

That isn't much different than I sounded at 6 weeks. I was sounding better at 4 weeks and then my body attacked the sutures at 5 weeks and I lost my voice again. If you heal anything like I do, expect another month before you see a large improvement. The vocal cords are vibrating so you don't have extreme swelling. The good news it it sounds like your pitch will be well into the feminine range after you heal more. Take it easy on your voice and if your voice gets over tired, get the paper and pen out again. I carried mine around for several weeks after surgery so if I needed it, I could make myself understood.

Quote from: Dena on December 02, 2015, 03:10:09 PM
That isn't much different than I sounded at 6 weeks. I was sounding better at 4 weeks and then my body attacked the sutures at 5 weeks and I lost my voice again. If you heal anything like I do, expect another month before you see a large improvement. The vocal cords are vibrating so you don't have extreme swelling. The good news it it sounds like your pitch will be well into the feminine range after you heal more. Take it easy on your voice and if your voice gets over tired, get the paper and pen out again. I carried mine around for several weeks after surgery so if I needed it, I could make myself understood.

That's good to know.  Still, I think maybe I gave a false impression with that recording.  I have a pretty high end stereo mic and in an attempt to be clear, I spoke directly into it, so it can pick up every ounce of tone.  However, when I stand only one foot away from the mic, http://vocaroo.com/i/s1iMGxRJwy92 you can tell that there really isn't much more than a whisper, and the high tones you hear when up close are most likely unintentional high harmonics from the open space where the cords should be closing and vibrating.  So it isn't necessarily a reflection of what the final voice will sound like, or where the pitch will be.

My healing was very sudden, all within a day, from a whispery falsetto like voice to a louder, clearer but still hoarse voice. I'm at 10 weeks and although my voice sounds feminine, it's still quite hoarse and gets more hoarse if I speak more than a minute, and my voice gets easily drowned out in noisy settings. Dr. Haben told me the hoarseness can take upto 3 months to subside. Please continue to keep us updated on your progress, it will help someone else down the line so they can know there's a wide spectrum of healing time. Hope your voice can recover soon! And if it's really slow, remember Lunarain's situation, there's always hope!

Quote from: jollyjoy on December 02, 2015, 04:44:58 PM
My healing was very sudden, all within a day, from a whispery falsetto like voice to a louder, clearer but still hoarse voice. I'm at 10 weeks and although my voice sounds feminine, it's still quite hoarse and gets more hoarse if I speak more than a minute, and my voice gets easily drowned out in noisy settings. Dr. Haben told me the hoarseness can take upto 3 months to subside. Please continue to keep us updated on your progress, it will help someone else down the line so they can know there's a wide spectrum of healing time. Hope your voice can recover soon! And if it's really slow, remember Lunarain's situation, there's always hope!

Of course I will continue to update.  Many posters here contributed to my decision to have surgery so the least I can do for the community is keep the information coming :)  That said, my main concern now is just making sure nothing is wrong.  I had great difficulty trying to schedule with an ENT today so I ordered an endoscope cam and if I can't get an appointment I'll try to take some pictures myself when it arrives.  Prime shipping ftw lol.

I hope you can control the gag reflex without the numbing agent. I know I can't as I can't take more than one pill at a time without gaging.

My voice is improving a little bit each day and I finally can hit normal speaking volume but it still fades  with extended usage and gets sore if I over use it. That's a bit of a problem now because I am doing a fair amount of work with other moderators using Skype so there is a strong temptation to talk about anything.

Well, I think I may have frightened Dr. Haben when I suggested that I might attempt to take pictures myself.  It was a little silly, now that I think about it.  I hesitate to post medical information on a public forum, but here is a snippet of our most recent exchange:

"...almost certainly granulation tissue now that I have had a chance to
re-review your post-op exam.  It WILL resolve without any intervention, but could take up to 4 months.  I know that this is frustrating, but we have no control over scarring.  The good news (yes, there is some) is that the web has certainly formed, otherwise there would be no granulation."

If I end up with a great result, this will all be worth it, but 4 months is a REALLY long time.   I can live with an imperfect voice for 4 months but I certainly don't know how I'm going to deal with having NO voice for that long.  Hopefully, there will be at least some improvement along the way.

You are one brave girl for wanting to do that yourself lol! I didn't even know that you can do something like that yourself, but I think you should let the professional do it just incase you accidentally damage something.

Quote from: kwala on December 02, 2015, 05:00:14 PMI had great difficulty trying to schedule with an ENT today so I ordered an endoscope cam and if I can't get an appointment I'll try to take some pictures myself when it arrives.  Prime shipping ftw lol.

Quote from: jollyjoy on December 02, 2015, 06:29:57 PM
You are one brave girl for wanting to do that yourself lol! I didn't even know that you can do something like that yourself, but I think you should let the professional do it just incase you accidentally damage something.

Yeah, I think we know what the problem is so it's not worth the risk and I'm going to abandon that idea.  However, I think it's definitely doable.  There are even some videos on YouTube of people taking crystal clear videos of their vocal cords with just an iPhone in their mouths. Not something I'm going to mess with but with today's technology it's not impossible.

Kwala!! I am so relieved. I'd hate for anyone to have to go through more trouble than she would have to... especially something so costly like this.

I do have a couple ideas for you:
If you have Android, I downloaded this awesome text to speech app called "Type and Speak" by Googamaphone, and I actually use it to talk to people at work (when we're not working of course) and to just sit and "chat" with my roomie.

The other idea I have is to learn sign language--which I've been playing with and badly progressing... but most people get thank you and please, so it's been useful.

Hope this helps :) :)

Audree

I used a similar app called Text to Speech. It can pronounce different languages and I used it to 'talk' to my parents in our native language. So glad apps like these exist, it really got me through those no talking periods!

Quote from: audreelyn on December 02, 2015, 09:59:05 PM
Kwala!! I am so relieved. I'd hate for anyone to have to go through more trouble than she would have to... especially something so costly like this.

I do have a couple ideas for you:
If you have Android, I downloaded this awesome text to speech app called "Type and Speak" by Googamaphone, and I actually use it to talk to people at work (when we're not working of course) and to just sit and "chat" with my roomie.

The other idea I have is to learn sign language--which I've been playing with and badly progressing... but most people get thank you and please, so it's been useful.

Hope this helps :) :)

Audree

Quote from: audreelyn on December 02, 2015, 09:59:05 PM
Kwala!! I am so relieved. I'd hate for anyone to have to go through more trouble than she would have to... especially something so costly like this.

I do have a couple ideas for you:
If you have Android, I downloaded this awesome text to speech app called "Type and Speak" by Googamaphone, and I actually use it to talk to people at work (when we're not working of course) and to just sit and "chat" with my roomie.

The other idea I have is to learn sign language--which I've been playing with and badly progressing... but most people get thank you and please, so it's been useful.

Hope this helps :) :)

Audree

Aww, thanks, Audree.  I have android so I'm downloading that app right now.  Yeah, it's a bummer that my healing will take a lot longer than average but it sounds like there will be a light at the end of this very long tunnel so I'll just have to get by and keep hoping for little bits of improvement along the way.  If the web has formed then I have to believe that the prognosis is still very good down the line.  And he did say "up to 4 months" so there is a chance things could start to turn around sooner. I truly hope your recovery is much faster than mine!

Joy! Yeah I looked at that app, but I just jumped on this one because of one real good review. I think I may check it out later if I have trouble with this one. What language do you speak, and how good was the accent? If they have a ton of different voices... this may be very entertaining for me later... Lol

Kwala! Thanks, girl :)
I hope your voice gets better soon. Crossing my fingers for ya; though I feel confident your next update will be better :)

I 'spoke' mandarin with the app, the accent is pretty good, doesn't sound very robotic. They do have it in many other languages, but you have to type in that language in order for it to work. 

Quote from: audreelyn on December 02, 2015, 11:14:37 PM
Joy! Yeah I looked at that app, but I just jumped on this one because of one real good review. I think I may check it out later if I have trouble with this one. What language do you speak, and how good was the accent? If they have a ton of different voices... this may be very entertaining for me later... Lol

Kwala! Thanks, girl :)
I hope your voice gets better soon. Crossing my fingers for ya; though I feel confident your next update will be better :)

So since I have been a bit of a Debbie Downer lately, I'm happy to share a bit of positive news.  Over the past few days I've had several moments where my voice has gained a bit of volume and clarity.  Still not close to normal levels but I was actually able to call my cat from across the room and he responded by running over immediately.   Haven't been able to do that since the surgery.   Unfortunately, it gives out after a minute or two but it's a good sign and has calmed my fears that I'm going to be mute forever.   :)

Quote from: kwala on December 04, 2015, 04:07:13 PM
So since I have been a bit of a Debbie Downer lately, I'm happy to share a bit of positive news.  Over the past few days I've had several moments where my voice has gained a bit of volume and clarity.  Still not close to normal levels but I was actually able to call my cat from across the room and he responded by running over immediately.   Haven't been able to do that since the surgery.   Unfortunately, it gives out after a minute or two but it's a good sign and has calmed my fears that I'm going to be mute forever.   :)

Called it! I'm so happy for you!!

Btw, how long was it for you, or anyone else who got it with Dr. H, before the swelling in your throat went down? I mean, when I swallow I feel like it can be a conscious effort to to keep things going down...

A

Quote from: audreelyn on December 04, 2015, 10:13:43 PM
Called it! I'm so happy for you!!

Btw, how long was it for you, or anyone else who got it with Dr. H, before the swelling in your throat went down? I mean, when I swallow I feel like it can be a conscious effort to to keep things going down...

A

For me, that sensation of having a lump in my throat went away after the first week I think.  Swallowing has not been an issue, and honestly I've had very few coughs throughout recovery.  However, there is obviously still a lot of swelling and also the issue of granulation tissue that is preventing my cords from closing and vibrating correctly.   I must have overdone it today because for now the little bit of clarity I experienced  is totally gone.   Time for me to shut up and let it finish healing.  Can't wait until I can speak at a normal volume.  I'm at 6 weeks and 3 days post op.  The first four weeks were tough, but I had mentally prepared for about a month of no voice and so the last two and a half have been brutal lol. 

Ah I see. Did you get the cta? I definitely think that's another factor. My throat, while flatter on the outside feels lumpy on the inside. I guess I just need to heal and rest up more. Though I do feel slight improvement every day

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

I'm sure that could be a factor.  I had the glottoplasty alone.  Rest up, drink plenty of water, and keep us all updated on your recovery :)

Quote from: audreelyn on November 27, 2015, 12:56:08 PM
OMG! Do you play any games? I'm playing waaaay too much Heroes of the Storm right now. It totally consumes all of my free time... How was the con? One of my guy friends was gonna go, but he didnt have anyone to go with--didnt think I was interested, but I definitely want to try next year!

Sorry Audree I just saw this post! Yes I play a variety of games: World of Warcraft, Runescape, and a huge range of other MMOs. I did try Heroes of the Storm during Blizzcon. If you're trying to go next year you know who to hit up :) I am definitely going and would love to introduce you to the big group of people I go with every year.

Well...I'm pretty sure I just coughed up some of the stitches.  It's funny, I've been soooo good about suppressing coughs throughout this recovery period and I finally got a tickle I couldn't suppress and out popped a little spikey object, just like Elaine described.  It looks like two tiny strings tied in a knot.  Now, I'm like a day and a half away from 7 weeks so I'm actually not too alarmed.  If anything I'm more surprised that it hadn't completely dissolved by now.  I sent Dr. Haben an email explaining what happened so I'll have to wait and see what his opinion is.  In a weird way, I'm almost thinking this might be a good thing.  My body was obviously not reacting well to having a foreign object in its system and
with some of the stitch removed and any remaining pieces in a frail state, perhaps I'll be able to heal more rapidly.  There was no pain, which leads me to believe the web has formed already and the stitch was no longer holding anything in place.  That's just a guess, though.  At this point I'm just really looking forward to talking again no matter how I sound.   :)

At 7 weeks you were overdue for the sutures to come out. I must have inhaled mine because they never came out.

Quote from: Dena on December 07, 2015, 09:49:39 PM
At 7 weeks you were overdue for the sutures to come out. I must have inhaled mine because they never came out.

That's what I think, too! I was surprised they were still somewhat intact and the knot was still super tight.  I took a photo I will upload so future patients can see what it looks like in case it happens to them.  I'm sure yours dissolved naturally, Dena.

Edited to add: Here's the image
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs20.postimg.org%2F7v4wtmm71%2Fknot_Dec5.jpg&hash=0d7ea23046263e3202c32e41883daab982c7b55a)

Quote from: Roni on December 06, 2015, 04:44:12 PM
Sorry Audree I just saw this post! Yes I play a variety of games: World of Warcraft, Runescape, and a huge range of other MMOs. I did try Heroes of the Storm during Blizzcon. If you're trying to go next year you know who to hit up :) I am definitely going and would love to introduce you to the big group of people I go with every year.

Oohh that's so funny! I used to play WoW. I was a Night Elf Warrior in Vanilla then I stopped for several years. It wasn't until Cata that I did a Blood Elf DK, but my ex stopped playing with me so I quit too. Anyway! Yeah I would love to meet all your peeps and hang out, that sounds like fun :) if you're ever playing HoTs or Diablo, PM me and we can trade info.

Kwala! That suture looks like a fishbone, must have been fun getting that coughed up... anyhow, can anyone explain how or why granulation forms on the membrane?

Audree

I guess either my sutures completely dissolved or I unknowingly swallowed it. It seems scary to cough up sutures, but since a good amount of weeks have passed since your surgery, it's probably nothing to worry about and part of the healing process.

Well, I heard back from Dr. Haben.  He says the stitches coming undone at this point is "normal."  He stressed again that my issue is granulation tissue that it just needs to resolve on its own.  Audree, as I understand it, granulation tissue can form over a wound or injury when your body is being overprotective.  It's different than a scab, but sort of the same idea- which is to create a protective covering.  In my case, that tissue is forming over my cords and thus prevents them from vibrating and coming together.

I tried three times to get an ENT to take a scope of my cords today and had the worst luck.  One is on maternity leave and can't get me in for another month, one said they don't have the equipment to do that,  and one was not sure they take my insurance and said if it doesn't go through it would be $1250.  I live in a major metropolitan city but all of this made me feel like I was back in 1950 lol.  I  was really hoping to get to the bottom of this but I guess I just need to have faith and wait it out.  I still have moments where there is improvement but they are very short.  Never a dull moment in this recovery!

Good to hear it will resolve on it's own. You're probably used to not talking by now, so another 3-4 weeks will go by quickly for you.

Quote from: jollyjoy on December 08, 2015, 02:01:53 PM
Good to hear it will resolve on it's own. You're probably used to not talking by now, so another 3-4 weeks will go by quickly for you.

I really hope so, Jolly  :)  The only hard part is that I'm back to work where everybody wants to know what's going on and even though they know you can barely speak they keep asking you questions.   During scheduling, we have to answer "yes" to confirm an event we are scheduled on so I keep asking friends to speak for me, lol.  At this point, I'm just hoping to make noise at a decent volume again.  Higher pitched or not.

Kwala:

That looks very similar to the one that came out at 5 weeks 2 days for me. It was a tickle and I did the breath in then HHHa thing rather than cough and out it popped. I brought it with me here on this trip but Dr Haben explained that from 5 weeks on they are expected to pop out.

Being at day 1 and about 8 hours I have a long way till a month. We are relaxing in a newly remodeled hotel nearby and have laid in most of the groceries we would need.

Interestingly, Dr Haben said the juices were a problem from the sugar aspect for him and being somewhat junk food in nature but cleared me for ALL berries and fruits. I LOVE a nice bowl of frozen mangos, blueberries, bananas (try them ripe then frozen, WOW delicious), peaches and pineapple. I was a bit surprised as many would be considered citrus but Dr Haben was emphatic about any and all whole fruit. Life is good at least for my diet.

Be safe and my very best wishes for your rapid recovery
Elaine

I think Dr Haben may be diabetic because he responded pretty much the same to me when I ask about orange juice. He said the acid wasn't the problem but the sugar was. In my case, I stay away from most processed sugar and orange juice with breakfast is a must so I don't have that much of a problem with weight or excess sugar in my diet.

Interesting.  I'm a huge diet Pepsi drinker and in an effort to not drink caffeinated beverages I switched to fruit juice (mostly mango) and have been drinking a ton of it since the surgery in addition to plain old water.  Maybe it wasn't a wise decision since I still can't use my voice.
:(  Then again, who knows.

A low sugar diet didn't help my voice at all. The primary diet changes I made were soups and soft food that my beat up mouth could handle. I also stayed aways from dry stuff that would stick and need a cough to free. I have hit that age were it has become far easer to put weight on and the best way to control my weight is to watch the sugar and fat intake.

Just had a scope done to evaluate my vocal cords.  As Dr. Haben suspected, the ENT confirmed a large piece of granulation tissue at the center of the web.  Despite this "big bubble" that is preventing them from coming together, the web looks quite good.  The ENT who did the scope agreed that it should resolve on its own, but may take a while.  I am so relieved.  The web looks even and about 40% closed off which gives me a good chance for an improved voice once this tissue goes away.  Here is a screen cap from the video:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs20.postimage.org%2Fmy7vn3655%2FScreenshot_2015_12_15_13_40_52.png&hash=3d29f0b84ccdbed15bd56b358b8d79cf04194165)

You can see the web, and also the big reddish bubble-like granulation in the center.  It is preventing my cords from closing together and vibrating.  They were a reaction to the sutures, which have now resolved.  Hopefully with the foreign objects out of the way my body will stop this reaction and the tissue will fade.  So, it's still a waiting game at this point but all signs point to a good outcome...it'll just take a bit longer than most. ;)

Quote from: kwala on December 15, 2015, 01:07:58 PM
Just had a scope done to evaluate my vocal cords.  As Dr. Haben suspected, the ENT confirmed a large piece of granulation tissue at the center of the web.  Despite this "big bubble" that is preventing them from coming together, the web looks quite good.  The ENT who did the scope agreed that it should resolve on its own, but may take a while.  I am so relieved.  The web looks even and about 40% closed off which gives me a good chance for an improved voice once this tissue goes away.  Here is a screen cap from the video:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs20.postimage.org%2Fmy7vn3655%2FScreenshot_2015_12_15_13_40_52.png&hash=3d29f0b84ccdbed15bd56b358b8d79cf04194165)

You can see the web, and also the big reddish bubble-like granulation in the center.  It is preventing my cords from closing together and vibrating.  They were a reaction to the sutures, which have now resolved.  Hopefully with the foreign objects out of the way my body will stop this reaction and the tissue will fade.  So, it's still a waiting game at this point but all signs point to a good outcome...it'll just take a bit longer than most. ;)

Looking good! Great news too! Any idea how long the granulated tissue will take to resolve?

You must be so relieved!
I'm at two and a half weeks post and am getting anxious to talk. I can't imagine how you must feel. Congrats (:

Audree

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

That's great news, you must be extremely relieved! :)

Quote from: jollyjoy on December 15, 2015, 03:03:09 PM
That's great news, you must be extremely relieved! :)

Very relieved, Jolly!  Now I'm just anxious for this to clear up so I can truly hear my results.

Audree, Dr. Haben said as long as 3-4 months and I'm at 2 months tomorrow so hopefully there will be some improvement in the next few weeks.  I'm not looking for perfection yet, but really dying to hear even a glimpse of the new voice- especially now, knowing that the web formed correctly.

Happy to hear you will be okay soon

 just listened to your recordings again and I'm like, omg, you're going to sound amazing when it's all done. Really. stoked. to hear your final result!

Audree

Quote from: audreelyn on December 16, 2015, 12:59:58 AM
just listened to your recordings again and I'm like, omg, you're going to sound amazing when it's all done. Really. stoked. to hear your final result!

Audree

I really hope so!

I sent a video of the scope to Dr. Haben and now he's saying it could take up to 6 months.  I really hope he's being conservative and that that's the worst case scenario.  I also wasn't sure if he meant six months from now, or 6 months from the surgery date.  I was planning on the voice to be somewhat weak and hoarse for a while, but being essentially voiceless for half a year or more is not something I signed on for.  Now, I'm not down on Dr. Haben, he's a wonderful surgeon and a good person and I am still grateful for his work.  I will, however, mention to him that he should perhaps warn clients about granulation in the future and the impact it can have on recovery.  Anyway, today was 90% good news so I'll just keep resting my voice as much as possible and hope the issue will resolve sooner.

Quote from: kwala on December 16, 2015, 01:38:04 AM
I really hope so!

I sent a video of the scope to Dr. Haben and now he's saying it could take up to 6 months.  I really hope he's being conservative and that that's the worst case scenario.  I also wasn't sure if he meant six months from now, or 6 months from the surgery date.  I was planning on the voice to be somewhat weak and hoarse for a while, but being essentially voiceless for half a year or more is not something I signed on for.  Now, I'm not down on Dr. Haben, he's a wonderful surgeon and a good person and I am still grateful for his work.  I will, however, mention to him that he should perhaps warn clients about granulation in the future and the impact it can have on recovery.  Anyway, today was 90% good news so I'll just keep resting my voice as much as possible and hope the issue will resolve sooner.

Six months and a great sounding voice I think is definitely worth it. I'm almost certain that he meant six months total, not an additional six bc that seems to be the magic number for the maximum recovery time.

I was at group therapy the other night and i use my phone app to talk, of course, and dr. Haben came up. One of the girls there mentioned that he and dr. Kim were just about the only doctors in the world that she would trust if she were going to get vfs.

It was nice hearing that, maybe it'll help your resolve. I wonder how often granulation occurs and if any of dr. Kim's had to deal with it. Either way, you're right, I would be losing my mind too if i had to do six months, heck, even a year without speaking.

Audree

Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk

A long time ago I developed the habit of listing more than talking. I found I learned more if I wasn't constantly asserting my viewpoint. That habit made it pretty easy for me to refrain from talking. The real problem as I saw it was nobody at the hospital has learned how to ask yes/no questions and they always want you to explain something so questions couldn't be answered with a simple head nod.

The worst one was one of the cleaning girls that started a conversation with me not knowing why I was in there and what my surgery was for. I got writers cramps on that one  ;D

 I  printed out my most needed sentences on small cards and I show them when needed. Is a lot faster and I do not get a cramp in the arm.

Quote from: Lara1969 on December 17, 2015, 08:22:42 PM
I  printed out my most needed sentences on small cards and I show them when needed. Is a lot faster and I do not get a cramp in the arm.

That's a good idea.  The most annoying thing is when I find myself in a group situation and everyone wants a voice update.  Does it hurt? How long will it be?  What caused it? So on and so forth.  It's like, what part of "I should be resting my voice and what little I have is barely audible anyhow" don't you understand?  Lol.

My neighbor before the voice surgery said I sounding like a man and I should get it fixed. After the surgery SHE was tired of reading my written responses. My thought " what did you expect?".

Finally a little bit more progress!  Happened very suddenly this morning when I awoke.  It's so hoarse and pinched right now that I'm trying not to judge it too harshly, but the volume- while still not up to normal levels- is much, much, much improved.  Hopefully this bit of improvement will continue and it will sound more feminine as the hoarseness fades away and the granulation tissue continues to diminish.  Thanks again for everyone who has been following my surgery story and lifting my spirits when I've been a bit down.  Things can only get better from here on out!  Sounds very rough at the moment, but I'll take it!
Sample of my slightly improved voice at 8 weeks 2 days:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0y8p0NnVwEN

It will get better and I sounded that bad for a while. I am glad you are seeing progress but I suspect you will find your voice fades if you use it very much. You should still take it easy and avoid excess talking at this point, not so much to avoid damage but to help healing.

Oh, for sure.  I have been keeping my lips zipped for 90% of the day.  I basically only talk when I absolutely need to and if I'm not at work I just stay silent except for a few check ins.  I need all the help I can get to mend this thing and blabbing all day would only make matters worse :)

Well, 11 weeks after surgery and although things are still bad I was very pleased to find that some of my head voice returned today.  My chest voice is still low, weak, and grainy sounding but an inconsistent but clear sounding head voice is at least starting to come back so I hope that's a sign that things are healing overall and more improvement should come in the future.  It's really unstable and not a part of my chest voice for speaking, but I really was overjoyed to hear some clarity after almost 3 months.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s153zAA951qy

That's a positive sign! That voice clip reminded me of Mariah Carey's higher register!

Quote from: jollyjoy on January 07, 2016, 09:20:31 PM
That's a positive sign! That voice clip reminded me of Mariah Carey's higher register!

Haha, we'll it's not near Mariah's upper end but I'm glad that my high register is still in there somewhere.  It's gone again today so maybe that was a fluke...at this point I don't know what to think anymore!  My latest instructions from Dr. Haben were to completely forego any kind of vocal rest so I'm just experimenting with any way I can to get tone out of my broken voice.  Hopefully, this was a sign of things starting to settle but I guess only time will tell.  It's hard for me to believe that I'm a few days away from 3 months and my voice is in such an awful state.  Still hoping to wake up one day and have a miraculous change  :)

Quote from: Dena on December 12, 2015, 10:52:48 PM
A low sugar diet didn't help my voice at all. The primary diet changes I made were soups and soft food that my beat up mouth could handle. I also stayed aways from dry stuff that would stick and need a cough to free. I have hit that age were it has become far easer to put weight on and the best way to control my weight is to watch the sugar and fat intake.

I wonder whether Manuka honey would help with voice regaining?

Usually you should not use your chest. You should use your head voice but without going into falsetto. Otherwise it would sound strange because with your chest voice you have a male-ish resonance whilst speaking with a female pitch.

My voice is currently also higher as it will be when swelling is gone. I think that is normal.

Quote from: Lara1969 on January 09, 2016, 01:35:08 AM
Usually you should not use your chest. You should use your head voice but without going into falsetto. Otherwise it would sound strange because with your chest voice you have a male-ish resonance whilst speaking with a female pitch.

My voice is currently also higher as it will be when swelling is gone. I think that is normal.

Thanks for responding, but this is incorrect.  Falsetto and head voice are essentially the same thing.  The only time there is a distinction is in singing where falsetto is used to describe a weak, breathy version of head voice.  I'm at 3 months so swelling is minimal and my problem is granulation tissue which, unfortunately, Dr. Haben never made me aware of as a possible setback prior to the operation.  In most cases, swelling makes the vocal cords larger and more mass= lower pitch, not higher.

Well, 3 and a half months later, my voice still sounds like garbage.  So no real updates there.

I noticed that recently Dr. Haben has updated his website with a few more examples (I recognized Dena and Cadence) and even added a section about granulation tissue.  He mentions using this forum as a way to contact former patients and also has a link to a Facebook group.

http://professionalvoice.org/feminization.aspx

Sorry to hear your voice is still dealing with the granulation issue, I'm sure it will eventually resolve on its own, I'm rooting for u! :)

Thanks for sharing those website updates, I recognize three of those voices!! :)

I'm glad Dr. Haben mentioned on the website that it could take upto 6 months for full healing for some people, so we don't freak out at 3 months if the voice still sounds not so good.

Quote from: kwala on January 23, 2016, 05:44:45 PM
Well, 3 and a half months later, my voice still sounds like garbage.  So no real updates there.

I noticed that recently Dr. Haben has updated his website with a few more examples (I recognized Dena and Cadence) and even added a section about granulation tissue.  He mentions using this forum as a way to contact former patients and also has a link to a Facebook group.

http://professionalvoice.org/feminization.aspx

Holy Bleep. I didn't need to play the audio back, just seeing 64 year old post op was enough for me to know that was my audio sample. In addition, in my 3 month message I explained that I had become a moderator here and explained how the voice section had a number of people looking at voice surgery and a number already had it. I also wondered why he had stuck the before and after voice together and returned it to me. I guess I will need to check his site a little more often. I wonder if I will get a rebate on my surgery  ::)

I had no idea you are 64, based on your profile pic, I thought you were in your 20's or 30's!

Quote from: Dena on January 24, 2016, 11:30:01 AM
Holy Bleep. I didn't need to play the audio back, just seeing 64 year old post op was enough for me to know that was my audio sample. In addition, in my 3 month message I explained that I had become a moderator here and explained how the voice section had a number of people looking at voice surgery and a number already had it. I also wondered why he had stuck the before and after voice together and returned it to me. I guess I will need to check his site a little more often. I wonder if I will get a rebate on my surgery  ::)

Very old picture but the most current one I have. I have been working on a new hair style or I would have taken one before now. I was about 35 or 36 when that picture was taken and if you look at my profile, I have told the truth about my age. My signature contains my surgical date so every post I make contains an indication that I am a real old timer. By the way, I had my surgery when I was 30 years old.

What a coincidence, I'll also be 30 when I have my SRS later this year!

Quote from: Dena on January 24, 2016, 01:41:59 PM
Very old picture but the most current one I have. I have been working on a new hair style or I would have taken one before now. I was about 35 or 36 when that picture was taken and if you look at my profile, I have told the truth about my age. My signature contains my surgical date so every post I make contains an indication that I am a real old timer. By the way, I had my surgery when I was 30 years old.

I'm less than a week from 4 months, so I thought I would post another voice update. 
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0pnr9uTFYYe    *

My range is still very limited and the granulation tissue is still causing that lower "vocal fry" to take over most of the time, but the more feminine voice is starting to show itself now and again as you can hear in the recording.  I never imagined it would still be so wonky sounding at 4 months but I'm trying to see the big picture as best I can.  It's just been so weird the past several weeks to have a sort of Jekyll and Hyde syndrome affecting my voice.  It confuses people and makes me very self-conscious.  I have faith that it will continue to heal and the Mr. Hyde part of the voice will disappear leaving only the lovely Ms. Jekyll, but it cannot come quickly enough!


*Note: I recognize that vocaroo is not the best site because the links expire so I've kept "hard copies" of the audio files on my laptop that I will eventually upload as a sort of timeline on soundcloud or another more permanent kind of site for reference, but for the time being it's just the easiest way to make a quick update.

Sounds a lot better than your last recording! You're making good progress now! Hopefully everything will heal faster for you in the next coming months. :)

Quote from: kwala on February 04, 2016, 07:36:29 PM
I'm less than a week from 4 months, so I thought I would post another voice update. 
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0pnr9uTFYYe    *

My range is still very limited and the granulation tissue is still causing that lower "vocal fry" to take over most of the time, but the more feminine voice is starting to show itself now and again as you can hear in the recording.  I never imagined it would still be so wonky sounding at 4 months but I'm trying to see the big picture as best I can.  It's just been so weird the past several weeks to have a sort of Jekyll and Hyde syndrome affecting my voice.  It confuses people and makes me very self-conscious.  I have faith that it will continue to heal and the Mr. Hyde part of the voice will disappear leaving only the lovely Ms. Jekyll, but it cannot come quickly enough!


*Note: I recognize that vocaroo is not the best site because the links expire so I've kept "hard copies" of the audio files on my laptop that I will eventually upload as a sort of timeline on soundcloud or another more permanent kind of site for reference, but for the time being it's just the easiest way to make a quick update.

^Hoping the same for you, Jolly!

Kwala:

Hi again. I can imagine that to you your voice might seem incrementally better to you, but to me, I hard more background you coming through. This sounds like a significantly step forward to my ears. I am really happy to hear your latest clip. It has taken you a great deal of time thus far but the improvements are coming.

It is easy to directly relate to the up's and not so up's of this recovery process. Expecting a certain sound and having the wild, frizzy, sort of parallel voice that has a mind of it's own is awkward but manageable.

This time around has been different and some days are a bit of a backward step and then things begin to clear more. Compared to the first week of being permitted to speak, it does seem like I am somewhat backward in my recovery. Not awful, just notably different than I got used to in the first several days. But this is it and there is a long way to go and only as of yesterday reached 8 weeks post op.

We may be heading back to my old hometown for a visit before the summer trip I mentioned. If so, will put in the extra few hundred miles and see Dr Haben for a check up. I want to take a photo of the closed area as I am very interested to see how things healed in comparison to the first surgery.

While dynamic range is of course limited there essentially is no chest voice. Not going to try find it as I am glad to be rid of the deeper tones. It is still a little unusual having the "high pass/low cut filter" and none of the low end frequencies of the past. A sort of physical EQ adjustment. Bone conduction does seem to blunt some of how I sound to me compared to how a recording sounds.

During the day recently rolling easily, I found my self lightly "singing" along with some songs I have on a ride mix. I had a moment of realization that I was singing far too high for the woman whose song I was doing my very untalented rendition of. I smiled and shook my head.

Though cleared for full on exercise, I am holding back and frankly not as inspired to get started on a daily basis. Can't say exactly why. Busy work seems more attractive for now. Some other things we have been discussing are of course their own little piles of angst. But I am more satisfied for now to keep the focus on recovery and not push things hard. Not nearly so.

Kwala, dear, I am really pleased to hear this last post. I am CERTAIN you will continue to progress and finally reach the closure of being fully recovered. Hope you can feel the hug I am trying to stuff through the electronic threads connecting all who visit here. But I do think of you and Audree and the similar recovery trajectories and shared VFS recovery travails. Little steps are still steps.

Be safe girl and please do keep in touch. I'll try and post a update this weekend.

Elaine

May be rough yet but it's well into the feminine range. It will get better but it's just a question of how long. It also sounds a bit like my voice when I over use it except my voice is much lower. I am not going to evaluate the voice beyond that because it will be different and better in a few more months.

Thanks for the virtual hug, Elaine!  I'm not surprised that you feel like your chest voice is gone, or not the same as before.  As I understand, a CTA makes the head voice muscles permanently engaged so this is probably a sign that your surgery was a success.

Dena, thanks for your comments.  It's funny, but after so much time has passed my priorities have totally shifted.  I'm sure the pitch will be in the desired range but at the moment all I want is a clear tone with reasonable volume! 

I know I am healing slower than many but at 6.5 months (I have to do another voice sample for everybody) my voice is much better. It still gets rough with a good deal of use but I have been playing around and my volume is better that with the old trained voice. I suspect if I were to use the elevated volume much, the voice would give out faster but if I want to be heard, I can. I suspect it may take 9 to 12 months for full recover but the voice is useable at this stage.

Because of the different length of my vocal cords, I am unsure exactly how clear the final voice will be and that may also mean the healing will have to be fully complete before my voice and be judged.

I just got the Decibel meter out and at 2 feet I was able to get a reading of 80db. That would be about the amount of noise a blender would make. That should be loud enough for me.

Another quick update.  Still not quite loud enough and very breathy, but for now I'll take it!
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0lq2xELIbiV

I also made a praat recording today that came in with an average of 270hz, so if this healing continues I may have seen a gain of around 100hz.

Quote from: kwala on February 13, 2016, 10:58:03 PM
Another quick update.  Still not quite loud enough and very breathy, but for now I'll take it!
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0lq2xELIbiV

I also made a praat recording today that came in with an average of 270hz, so if this healing continues I may have seen a gain of around 100hz.

Your voice sounds pretty good! And yes, it does sound breathy, but my question is... how long can you talk? Can you talk for a couple of hours without tiring or can you talk for just a few minutes and then need to rest?

Kwala:

That clip sounded so much better. I am glad you posted it and am utterly thrilled for you. The loudness issue aside, the gain is really good and I am impressed by your overall tone. Unquestionably feminine. Big smiles. hug's and I'm doing a happy dance for you! Woo-hoo.

It is challenging having the voice be a kind of moving target on a daily (sometimes hourly) basis, in your case things are resolving in a positive manner. Again, absolutely happy for you and hope your recovery hastens its pace.

Be safe
Elaine'

Quote from: GeekGirl on February 15, 2016, 12:41:52 PM
Your voice sounds pretty good! And yes, it does sound breathy, but my question is... how long can you talk? Can you talk for a couple of hours without tiring or can you talk for just a few minutes and then need to rest?

At the moment, I can talk at a very low volume pretty consistently without much trouble or need to rest for fear of it giving out.  So, for example if I'm in the car with one other person and the radio is off, I can get by just fine.  Where there is an issue is if I'm in a group situation and/or there is background noise (people talking, television on, traffic, etc) and I try to raise my voice it gets very husky, the double  pitch returns, and I'll have moments where it just gives out and there is no sound.  Another observation is that it seems to be the worst in the mornings and range and clarity increase gradually throughout the day with the best sounds happening at night.  In my emails with Dr. Haben, he said that in terms of granulation some people experience a sudden change almost overnight while others experience a slow, gradual return and it looks like the latter will be the case for me.

Elaine, thanks for your comments and encouragement.  Not out of the woods yet, but at least I'm starting to see the pathway  :).

Your voice has improved so much Kwala, sounds very feminine! Yes, it's still breathy but that'll get better eventually. My voice also sounds worst in the morning and gets better throughout the day. I think it's because while we sleep, we don't drink water for 8-9 hours so the vocal cords are not hydrated well when we wake up in the morning. My voice still sounds breathy most of the time, Dr. Haben told me it could take 6 months or even longer so I'm still hopeful that my voice will gain the clarity and volume that I so desperately need for my wedding photography career. Like you, I feel pitch increase is secondary at this point, the most important things for me are volume and clarity. 

^Thanks, Jolly.  Fingers still crossed for the both of us!

Well, I have some pretty bad news.  I went in for another scope today to check on the progress of the granulation tissue since I'm very near the 6 month mark.  The granulation tissue is gone (or mostly gone) so the question remains: why do I still sound like garbage?  Well, according to Doctor Haben's review of the video I sent him, the web is too large and he recommended another surgery.  However, going back under the knife (laser) could mean another round of granulation tissue all over again, which is the cause of the web "over-fusing" in the first place.  He says there is a chance that it could still improve on its own (I don't really see how and don't know the odds).  I simply don't have the vacation time to take another month off of work, not to mention the funds and I don't feel confident that this won't just restart the whole cycle all over again.  Basically, I feel like I just paid around 6k to have my voice ruined and my life taken over.  This is without a doubt the worst decision I've ever made.  I'll have to make a decision eventually and will keep everyone posted.

I'm very sorry to hear Kwala, I was hoping that you can have a positive result, I can imagine how you're feeling at the moment. Stay strong! Your last recording was already a lot better than your earlier ones, maybe some more time healing will make your voice better?

First, a big hug!

I am very sorry to hear the bad news. I can totally understand your decision of not wanting to go under the knife again.

I remember when I tried to speak my first word at one month post op and nothing, exept air, came out. I was horrified and devastated! Then the slow progress that followed and the incertainty over whether or not I will be able to speak with a clear voice was absolutely horrible!

I would say give it anothzr 3 months or so and see how things turn out. You never know, hun. I'll  keep my fingers crossed for you.

Hugs,

Rita

Thanks for the support.

I'm still waiting on a reply to some specific questions I asked Dr. Haben, but he basically said that in the total amount of patients on whom he has performed this surgery (he says 500) I am the only one who ended up with an over-developed web.  The web is the same size it was when I had it scoped in December and I brought up a concern with its size at that time, but my concerns were dismissed.   Not quite sure why it's so obvious now.  Common sense is saying to "wait it out and see" but that's what I've been doing for the past 5 and a half months and my gut is telling me that something is very wrong and intervention is necessary to correct it.  We'll see.  If only I could go back in time lol.

The recovery for the web repair may not be as much as the original surgery because I suspect the procedure won't be as extensive. The cords are already fused so this would be an adjustment instead of a restructuring. I don't know if more time would allow it to correct it's self but it's not urgent so you can take your time deciding and see if the surgery corrects it's self.

Quote from: Dena on March 17, 2016, 10:30:03 PM
The recovery for the web repair may not be as much as the original surgery because I suspect the procedure won't be as extensive. The cords are already fused so this would be an adjustment instead of a restructuring. I don't know if more time would allow it to correct it's self but it's not urgent so you can take your time deciding and see if the surgery corrects it's self.

I also don't know if more time will somehow allow things to work out, but I asked very specifically how this might occur since Dr. Haben mentioned it as a possibility and I am still awaiting a response.  It does seem like this surgery would be far less extensive and should mean less healing time, but based on the last surgery, we know for sure that my body tends to overreact in terms of healing so it's not a given.  After five and a half months, fixing this mess and being able to converse in public is most definitely an urgent issue to me. 

For many post-voice surgery patients, there is often implied and explicit concern over speaking, even in whisper, coughing, etc. I assume this is because there *could* be some issue with sutures, and therefore potential complication. Is this specifically dealt with pre and post op by surgeons? It might have been mentioned, more than once in the various threads, but I don't recall, yet for someone like me who hasn't had a consult, Im just wondering. If its a major concern, I wonder why there wouldn't be some additional medicine, like xanax, that might relax the muscles/patient?

Curious...

You are trying to fuse two cords and movement between them could keep them from fusing. In addition the suture can come undone allowing the cords to separate. Dr Haben says control what you can and don't worry about what you can't but I didn't want a revision surgery and I wanted all the pitch gain I could get so I was very careful to avoid all noise. As for medication, I don't know of anything that would just relax just the vocal cords.

Quote from: shelleyg on March 30, 2016, 05:42:07 PM
For many post-voice surgery patients, there is often implied and explicit concern over speaking, even in whisper, coughing, etc. I assume this is because there *could* be some issue with sutures, and therefore potential complication. Is this specifically dealt with pre and post op by surgeons? It might have been mentioned, more than once in the various threads, but I don't recall, yet for someone like me who hasn't had a consult, Im just wondering. If its a major concern, I wonder why there wouldn't be some additional medicine, like xanax, that might relax the muscles/patient?

Curious...

Dr. Haben has easy to follow guidelines for post-op recovery that include no speaking(not even whispering or mouthing words) for a week, avoiding acidic food and drink, avoiding coughs and sneezes as much as possible, and provides one week of steroids and a month of prilosec for acid reflux control.  Oh, and obviously, no smoking.  In my case I can say that I took great care in following the instructions.  I know that my sutures held for at least 7 weeks because that was when i coughed a portion of them up.  For whatever reason, the web that resulted ended up being too large which is sort of the opposite of what you mentioned.  But your theory is correct: speaking too early can rip or loosen the sutures and cause the vocal folds to move apart and not fuse together as intended.

Dena, botox relaxes the vocal cords and it could be one of the reasons that Dr. Kim often injects it in his patients.  I'm sure one of them could clarify.

Edited to add:
Since it's been a few weeks I thought I'd share another update on how my voice is sounding and the current dilemmas I'm facing.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0HNPcQSdjUJ

I have been slow to regain the volume but at about 7 months I have a fair amount of volume back without my voice breaking. As I am using a trained voice, I don't expect it to reach the volume of my male voice but most of the time I am fine as long as my mom is wearing her hearing aids.

As for Botox, it's a neurotoxin that paralyzes rather than relaxes and it has to be injected into the area where it's needed.  The effects last several months so I think Dr Kim is targeting bad speech habits with a chemical solution instead of therapy. My speech therapist was an expert in treating those conditions with therapy alone and I am not sure just how effective Botox is in correcting problems like that.

In regards to Botox, Dr. Kim did say that it was just to help me in terms of speaking properly and it wasn't a panacea or anything.  In all the videos he showed me, the tremor almost disappeared when I was increasing tension on my vocal cords, but was rather bad at lower frequencies.  I admit I don't fully understand how to potentially train myself out of speaking in a bad way so I don't end up with the tremor again, though.  It's something I'll be asking for more advice on at my one week checkup.

For the most part, voice problems are the result of speaking to high, to low or to loud. A properly trained voice is not a case of to high unless the voice is force beyond it's limits. My speech therapist taught me how to listen to voice so I could tell if a person was abusing their voice and also how to fix the problem. As my voice wasn't trainable in the feminine range, I guess an education about speech therapy was worth the money I paid.

Quote from: Dena on March 30, 2016, 08:32:25 PM
You are trying to fuse two cords and movement between them could keep them from fusing. In addition the suture can come undone allowing the cords to separate. Dr Haben says control what you can and don't worry about what you can't but I didn't want a revision surgery and I wanted all the pitch gain I could get so I was very careful to avoid all noise. As for medication, I don't know of anything that would just relax just the vocal cords.

Thank you!

That makes so much sense. I was thinking about Botox too. I know a little about this for another issue, Gastroparesis. Its used here to *quiet* down some muscle activity, that results in making patients nauseous. Its not permanent, and typically looses efficacy by 1 year.

Haven't updated this thread in over a month, but it's time.  I had a second operation yesterday where Dr. Haben decreased the size of my web, which had grown well beyond the 50% mark, leaving the active portion of my cords too short to function well.  I am allowed to start slowly speaking this morning and it's still extremely hoarse (as to be expected) but sounds are coming out so that's a good sign.  Leaving for my post op check in about an hour and crossing my fingers this can get my voice back on track.

Good luck, Kwala. *crosses fingers* I hope you'll be sorted out soon!

Thanks.  Only two days post op and so far no real progress, but I'm certainly not expecting things to turn around overnight and Dr. Haben advised at least two weeks for the swelling to go down.  Still hoping for the best.

Hey Kwala,

How are you doing sweety? I started following this thread as I'm considering Haben vs Yeson. I think you learn the most about people when you see them deal with a difficult situation. I'm pulling for you and watching to see if Haben rises up to the challenge of corrective surgery.

Cute name BTW. In my mind it's like Koala but 2 syllables instead of 3

Hope all went well with your second surgery, Kwala! Looking forward to hearing your new voice!

I am sorry to say this but I would NEVER consider a surgeon who would make me pay a FULL PRICE for a corrective surgery. By his own admission, he seems to have messed up the surgical site in the first place.

Well, we must have totally missed our paths because I had mine done with Dr. Haben on the 25th, too, Kwala.  Mine was 8:30am.  I hope yours turns out good this time. ;)

^I hope your surgery goes much, much, much, much better than mine, Ainsley.  Sadly, I have no progress whatsoever to report at the moment.  of course, it's only been 12 days but I assume that much of the swelling has come down since this surgery was much less intrusive and all of my previous problems are still present.  According to Dr. Haben this was my last option so if things don't improve over the next few months I may have lost my voice forever.

OMGoodness, that is so sad to hear, Kwala!  I hope things improve soon for you.  I am trying to not talk, but I have made sounds as of late and I sound like a girl with a hoarse voice.  I dry heaved after surgery, had coughing fits, and sneezes, so I hope I have not torn the stitch or webbing.  I have to be patient.  I would like to say you should be patient, too, but I am sure you have heard enough of that talk.  Do you have a speech language pathologist to work with?  Mine has been emailing and communicating with Dr. Haben for the best course of therapy for me when I start to use my voice.  Also, did you notice a change in you'r taste after the surgery?  So far food does not taste the same.  It doesn't taste bad, I would say it is more bland than anything.

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack your thread, and I really do hope you more recovery to come with your voice.  It makes me sad to hear a possibility of permanent voice loss.  We go to such lengths to make the changes we NEED in this process and negative results are devastating.

Quote from: kwala on June 06, 2016, 02:08:42 PM
^I hope your surgery goes much, much, much, much better than mine, Ainsley.  Sadly, I have no progress whatsoever to report at the moment.  of course, it's only been 12 days but I assume that much of the swelling has come down since this surgery was much less intrusive and all of my previous problems are still present.  According to Dr. Haben this was my last option so if things don't improve over the next few months I may have lost my voice forever.

OMG Kwala. I was worrying after reading this thread. Give it some more time(I know it's been forever for you) to heal. The body is pretty amazing at adapting. *hugs*

Ainsley - The pressure from the instruments used in surgery on various parts of you mouth will mess up your sense of taste. Taste buds regenerate in six weeks to three months so expect your sense of taste to be out of whack for a while. The strange thing is I seem to be able to detect metallic tastes that I didn't notice before. It's not a problem but every so often I get a mouth full of something and what's that taste?

Kwala - I am not sure what Dr Haben told you the healing time would be but I suspect the area where the cords were separated will take a while to heal and return to their final shape. This will be more than a reduction in swelling so I am guessing it might be a month or two before we can get an idea what's going on.

Quote from: ainsley on June 06, 2016, 02:34:32 PM
OMGoodness, that is so sad to hear, Kwala!  I hope things improve soon for you.  I am trying to not talk, but I have made sounds as of late and I sound like a girl with a hoarse voice.  I dry heaved after surgery, had coughing fits, and sneezes, so I hope I have not torn the stitch or webbing.  I have to be patient.  I would like to say you should be patient, too, but I am sure you have heard enough of that talk.  Do you have a speech language pathologist to work with?  Mine has been emailing and communicating with Dr. Haben for the best course of therapy for me when I start to use my voice.  Also, did you notice a change in you'r taste after the surgery?  So far food does not taste the same.  It doesn't taste bad, I would say it is more bland than anything.

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack your thread, and I really do hope you more recovery to come with your voice.  It makes me sad to hear a possibility of permanent voice loss.  We go to such lengths to make the changes we NEED in this process and negative results are devastating.

Not worries, you aren't hijacking!  I never noticed the taste difference, but others have mentioned it- though I belive they all said it went back to normal.  I wouldn't worry about the small noises, I'm sure you're fine.

Well, Dr. Haben's time frame for healing has been a moving target.  First it was 2 weeks, then a month, and now he's saying three months.  What worries me is not so much that my voice sounds bad, it's more that it's the "same kind of bad."  It actually felt the best the day after surgery (Yes, for this procedure I was encouraged to speak after only one day).   Right now, it feels exactly the same as before only the base pitch as a few notes lower.  I'm going to wait a few more weeks before seeing another ENT but I am beginning to suspect the web is not the problem and that somehow my vocal cords were just too scarred during the first surgery to vibrate properly.  I sent an SOS email to a few renowned ENT's in my area and one of them already responded saying the case is too complicated for him.  I truly hope this is not the end of the road for my voice.  These past 8 months have been so depressing.   :embarrassed:

Thanks for the support, everyone.  If there are any changes at all I will definitely share.

Quote from: Ritana on June 06, 2016, 11:51:33 AM
I am sorry to say this but I would NEVER consider a surgeon who would make me pay a FULL PRICE for a corrective surgery. By his own admission, he seems to have messed up the surgical site in the first place.

I actually sort of agree with this, but I figured since he created the web, he might be the best person to fix it.  He took no responsibility for what happened and says he "can't control the way people heal."  Of course, I don't know for sure exactly why this was such a failure but I'm very interested in getting another expert opinion the next time I see an ENT.  What makes me angry is that I asked point blank before agreeing to surgery, "What's the worst case scenario?" and he said not to worry about it.

Quote from: kwala on June 06, 2016, 02:08:42 PM
^I hope your surgery goes much, much, much, much better than mine, Ainsley.  Sadly, I have no progress whatsoever to report at the moment.  of course, it's only been 12 days but I assume that much of the swelling has come down since this surgery was much less intrusive and all of my previous problems are still present.  According to Dr. Haben this was my last option so if things don't improve over the next few months I may have lost my voice forever.

Kwala,

First of, **** hugs***

My heart goes out yo you, kwala. I know daunting it Is to go through the process of uncertainty over recovering one's voice. I will keep my fingers crossed for you, sweetheart, but please keep being positive, it can.only help.

Ritana

Dena, I told my wife and daughter what you said about the taste buds and they said that is what Dr. Haben told them in the waiting room after my surgery.  I guess I was too loopy to remember them telling me that after surgery. LOL

Kwala, I guess we are playing the waiting game.  Only time will tell from here.  I remember Dr. Haben being very evasive about time frames for healing and result because, as he says, everyone heals differently and it is not the same exact modification for everyone, since we all have differing physiques to deal with.  Each case he is challenged with takes a specific approach to meet the needs of the shape, size, and vocal quality of the cords being altered.  I am not defending him, necessarily, but just pointing out why he says what he says when he is asked about healing and results.  When I uttered two different words to my wife yesterday I told her it sounded bad to me.  She said no and said the pitch is definitely higher.  I am going to have to just wait and see. ;)

It's sad to say, but unless girls who have really deep voices need dramatic pitch increase via the CTA, I would not recommend Haben again--it would be Yeson all the way.

Kwala, it is such a shame that you had to go through all of this. It seems like between you, I, and a few other girls during that time frame, I suspect he was trying a different way of completing the surgery which might be why he had higher failure rates. Regardless of all that and my suspicions, the only thing I want is for you to recover!!

<3
Audree

Quote from: audreelyn on June 11, 2016, 07:19:23 PM
It's sad to say, but unless girls who have really deep voices need dramatic pitch increase via the CTA, I would not recommend Haben again--it would be Yeson all the way.

Kwala, it is such a shame that you had to go through all of this. It seems like between you, I, and a few other girls during that time frame, I suspect he was trying a different way of completing the surgery which might be why he had higher failure rates. Regardless of all that and my suspicions, the only thing I want is for you to recover!!

<3
Audree

Thanks, sweetie!  I hope your voice has continued to improve, I remember it sounding much, much better the last time I heard an update.

I agree with you on the Yeson recommendation.  You will never see me in Dr. Haben's office again.  I don't think he's a bad person, but I don't think he's as experienced (particularly with this procedure) as he claims to be and I've found his instructions and advice to be so inconsistent and in many cases completely contradictory that I, personally, would not feel comfortable recommending his services.  I should have sought help from another source after the first failure, but my thinking was- he created this so he may he the only one who can set it right.  My focus now is on finding a new set of doctors and praying they can salvage what's left of my vocal cords.  I'm determined to explore every avenue to restore basic vocal function even if it bankrupts me or drives me into debt.   

Paying the full price for two consecutive surgeries and still ending up with such voice issues is so regrettable. You are right in wanting to have your vocal cords checked out by a third party specialist to ascertain what may have gone wrong. Any surgeon who uses the the excuse « I can't control the way people heal» as an.exit strategy is not a.trustworty one in my opinion. Depending on the findings of an independent ENT, I would consider taking the matter further.


I hope you will be able to regain a clear voice again.

I'm so sorry for your experiences kwala. I wish you all the best in your next step to recover your voice.

This has turned me off going to Dr Haben altogether!

Quote from: kwala on June 12, 2016, 03:49:34 PM
My focus now is on finding a new set of doctors and praying they can salvage what's left of my vocal cords.  I'm determined to explore every avenue to restore basic vocal function even if it bankrupts me or drives me into debt.

Oh this sounds horrible :( - I hope you can find someone to help. I hear Dr Thomas in Portland is really good af fixing voices that have previously been surgically altered. Did you get details on what went wrong and what he did to presumably correct it?

Well, I saw an ENT today.  No signs of swelling and no granulation tissue this time and yet my issues persist.  he also remarked that he has seen a dozen or so patients who have undergone this surgery and has never seen a web this large, despite me just having surgery to reduce it in size.

Anjaq, my first surgery somehow resulted in a Web that was extremely large, probably 60-65% of the cords.  Dr. Haben claims this is due to the "way I healed."  I agreed to have a second surgery where he could reduce its size, hoping that this would fix my lack of volume and inability to produce a single pitch (my voice box since the first  surgery and up to this day produces multiple sounds simultaneously when I speak above a whisper).

I did send an email to Dr. Thomas two weeks ago and have not gotten a response.  The ENT I saw today basically said this problem was out of his league, and to seek a true specialist.

This  is such a sad and unfortunate vfs experience. I would never have undergone vfs had I read this story. Luckily mine didn't result in anything close to this.

My heart goes out to you, Kwala. I will keep my fingers crossed for you so you can regain your voice hun.

Ritana

Quote from: Ritana on June 15, 2016, 12:21:44 PM
This  is such a sad and unfortunate vfs experience. I would never have undergone vfs had I read this story. Luckily mine didn't result in anything close to this.

My heart goes out to you, Kwala. I will keep my fingers crossed for you so you can regain your voice hun.

Ritana

Thanks so much for your support, and believe me, I am so happy you didn't have to go through anything like this.   As painful as it is, I think it's important for me to share this so future candidates for vfs know that even with modern methods there are still major risks.

Kwala... I am so sorry.

My heart goes out to you... I don't know how you must be feeling right now, but please don't give up. I am sure there's a way we can get your voice back.

:(

Have you thought about emailing Yeson and seeing what their thought is on the subject? Even Dr. Remarcle or other VFS doctors might have an idea of what is happening?

Audree

I guess right now all you can do is wait and check your options. Any surgeon will tell you it has to be seen what healing occurs now and a full assessment or corrective surgery will require for the healing to be completed - so at least 8 weeks post OP, I believe, maybe at4 weeks one can at least analyze endoscopic pictures and videos and see how it develops and make a prediction. I think you can probably send pictures, videos and voice recordings to Dr Kim and Dr Thomas to see what they say, but you would need a local ENT to do stroboscopic endoscopic videos you can then send. Otherwise I guess you would have to travel to get an assessment, but I would definitely wait for a couple of weeks for that, otherwise you are booking a flight and have costs and then the examination is not successfull because it is too early to say anything. I wish you the best and hope you get a good voice again.

Time for an update.  I was finally able to see a true specialist today, to whom I had been referred by other notable ENT'S in the area.  There's good and bad news.  The good news is he feels strongly that he can return my voice to normal.  The bad news (back to normal, like before surgery) really isn't sounding that bad.  I've said it before and I still feel that having ANY voice is preferable to what I have now.  I'm basically going to need two surgeries, one to remove the web and put keels in place to make sure it doesn't reform, and a second surgery several weeks later to simply remove the keels.  He said that no doubt scarring has occurred but my voice should get its volume back and the hoarseness should at the very least be much less severe and in the best case scenario, completely gone.  There is a part of me that's sad to see the web go, just because it was something I wanted so badly.  A sure-fire, automatic way to keep my pitch in the right place.  Dr. Haben somehow managed to make this web too large, however, and even his attempt to "lessen" it was a complete failure.  Two strikes, and I'm not going back for a third. Of course, the thought had entered my mind to ask about only a partial removal, but trying the same thing twice would be foolish, I believe, so the whole thing has to go.  It's sad to think about how much time and money I've lost, but I'm ready for this to be over and just have a voice that's actually usable, regardless of how it is perceived.

Thats so sad... but I understand that you had enough of this - especially it costs money every time... I hope you can at least get your old voice back without too much damage.

Quote from: anjaq on July 13, 2016, 03:27:55 PM
Thats so sad... but I understand that you had enough of this - especially it costs money every time... I hope you can at least get your old voice back without too much damage.

Thank you!  I'm sad to not be joining the club of ladies with successful glottoplasties and beautiful feminine voices but if this works out and I can at least speak normally again I'll take it!

Quote from: kwala on July 13, 2016, 08:33:37 PM
Thank you!  I'm sad to not be joining the club of ladies with successful glottoplasties and beautiful feminine voices but if this works out and I can at least speak normally again I'll take it!

For what it's worth, I thought your pre- and post-VFS voices were great, but as with all surgeries you, yourself, have to be totally satisfied with them. Hopefully you'll get the voice you want in the end. My surgery is next week. Hopefully things will go right this time.

Quote from: GeekGirl on July 13, 2016, 08:40:55 PM
For what it's worth, I thought your pre- and post-VFS voices were great, but as with all surgeries you, yourself, have to be totally satisfied with them. Hopefully you'll get the voice you want in the end. My surgery is next week. Hopefully things will go right this time.

Thank you!  I am really hoping that I can regain the voice I worked on before this mess started.  As for my post op voice, I was able to make it sound decent in a few recordings, but what you can't tell over the Internet is how very very softly I had to speak to get it that way.  I wish that I were able to use my current voice in public but the minute I try to speak up, all hell breaks loose.  Many ENT'S now have assured me that this isn't something therapy can fix, there simply isn't enough vibration in my vocal cords to produce audible sound in any kind of real world setting.

Best of luck with your surgery.  I sincerely wish you a good result!

How much of the vocal folds did you "loose" in the surgery? I know Dr Kim als most of the others aim at reducing them by 30-50% - did you get a bigger reduction then because of the scarring? Its kind of odd because most people rather have to take care that the web or suture is not coming loose, while yours oddly formed even further. Did you have pictures taken of the vocal folds?

Quote from: anjaq on July 14, 2016, 04:22:50 AM
How much of the vocal folds did you "loose" in the surgery? I know Dr Kim als most of the others aim at reducing them by 30-50% - did you get a bigger reduction then because of the scarring? Its kind of odd because most people rather have to take care that the web or suture is not coming loose, while yours oddly formed even further. Did you have pictures taken of the vocal folds?

I have a few photos, can upload later after work.  The web is definitely over more than 50% of the cords. After the first surgery, Dr. Haben estimated that it was close to 70% (of course this is just conjecture, no actual measurements were taken).  In the pictures that I've seen since the operation to "trim" it, it appears virtually the same size to my eyes.  It is pretty interesting that in so many cases people end up with a web that is too small to make a noticeable difference or a web that never forms and here I am with this gargantuan web that makes speech nearly impossible.

It's unclear to me whether the web ended up so large because of granulation tissue or whether I was just plain stitched too high.

I have been thinking about this for the last day or so and a though crossed my mind. I do a fair amount to works with my hands and receive the normal nasty collection of booboos to my hands. Not fun but they are interesting to watch heal. Often they start joining from both ends and work toward the center. It almost sounds like your body continued this process beyond the point where it should have stopped. I am pretty sure Dr Haben didn't place the suture in the wrong place and your surgical pictures should verify it. Mine are on the site if you wish to compare them. If you want a larger image, I can provide that as well. I wasn't aware of the sites ability to reduce images when I posted them having come off a earlier revision of the same software we run here. As the result, I reduced them before posting, maybe a bit to much.

Quote from: Dena on July 14, 2016, 03:46:12 PM
I have been thinking about this for the last day or so and a though crossed my mind. I do a fair amount to works with my hands and receive the normal nasty collection of booboos to my hands. Not fun but they are interesting to watch heal. Often they start joining from both ends and work toward the center. It almost sounds like your body continued this process beyond the point where it should have stopped. I am pretty sure Dr Haben didn't place the suture in the wrong place and your surgical pictures should verify it. Mine are on the site if you wish to compare them. If you want a larger image, I can provide that as well. I wasn't aware of the sites ability to reduce images when I posted them having come off a earlier revision of the same software we run here. As the result, I reduced them before posting, maybe a bit to much.

It's difficult to say for sure, but I have in writing him saying all different sorts of "estimates" for how much he was supposed to suture off.  It seems to me as though he "winged it" so to speak and bit off more than he could chew.  I have shown my after pictures to three other ENT's now and two of them commented about the suture placement being too high.  I'm not planning any legal action at this time, but in my mind he has a degree of responsibility for both of these procedures being complete failures and it's my impression that at least two other medical professionals agree.

Kwala,

What buffles me in all this is his total lack of responsibility as not only you ended up losing your normal speaking voice at his hands but he also made you pay the full price for two surgeries that had such an outcome, without offering any refund, not even a partial one! That, in my view, is shocking!

If two specialist ENT's have commented that sutures were placed too high then I personally would take the matter further.

Once again, I am very sorry you ended up with such an outcome. Yeson are excellent at fixing  such issues caused by other surgeon(jessie told me). However,  Having paid for two consecutive surgeries, I understand that financially you may not be able to afford a third one, in which case I would suggest you set up a fund/ website with something like «help me get my voice back». I will be the first person to donate, Kwala.

Hugs

Ritana

Do you have endoscopic pictures of the vocal folds while the sutures were still in place? from those, one could see if they were placed so that the web had to form too large. I cannot really imagine the web forming itself beyond the suture line because there is tension at the Tip of the Y that actually pulls the vocal folds apart, so that would usually prevent that they grow together further than it was done during surgery. Plus the parts outside the surgical area are not depeithelized, so they should have mucous membrane on them, preventing tissue from growing together. Like - your fingers do not just grow together even if you have a wound at the place where they come together at the palm of the hand...

If you have proof that it was a suture that was loo long, maybe you can find a lawyer and make a deal to get a refund at least for the second surgery, so you could then afford a correction by Dr Thomas or Dr Kim - both are said to be good at fixing voices that have been surgically messed with.

Thank you for the concern and advice.  I have a plan to use a local doctor (highly renowned, has performed and reversed this procedure before) and I decided to come clean at work and get my insurance involved.  This isn't the way I wanted to do it, but I can only pay for so much on my own lol.  There's a good chance that this will all be covered- fingers crossed!  Right now my focus is 100% on regaining my voice and the ability to speak and I'll consider any legal actions if I can get to that place.  If I do get my voice back, I seriously doubt I'll ever do another voice surgery.  I know my case was extreme, but I've just been too scarred (pun intended) by the experience and if I can get normal speech back I'll just be grateful for what I have.

Got some good news today.  I don't have a date scheduled yet, and of course no guarantee that this will work, or any idea how well it will work, but...my insurance is going to cover the web removal.  I'm so relieved!  Two trips to Dr. Haben have depleted my savings and I didn't really know how I was going to pay for this if I had to come up with the funds on my own. 

Saw another ENT today- my providers wanted their guy to take a look since I had previously gone out of network- and he was really taken aback by the size of the web.  I asked him specifically about the size and he said roughly 1/4 of my cords are free to vibrate, maybe less, which means at least 75% of my cords are fused together.  What a sloppy outcome!  Part of me wishes a partial reduction were possible but it seems the best chance for a good outcome is a full removal, and at this point I can't really afford to roll the dice.  As always, thanks to everyone who has followed my story and shown support.   I will post details following the removal so that future patients will know what to do if they find themselves in this situation.

That's great that at least your insurance can cover it. I feel very bad that you had to go through all this. Stay strong! I will keep my fingers crossed for you for your web removal!!

Quote from: kwala on July 22, 2016, 04:08:40 PM
Got some good news today.  I don't have a date scheduled yet, and of course no guarantee that this will work, or any idea how well it will work, but...my insurance is going to cover the web removal.  I'm so relieved!  Two trips to Dr. Haben have depleted my savings and I didn't really know how I was going to pay for this if I had to come up with the funds on my own. 

Saw another ENT today- my providers wanted their guy to take a look since I had previously gone out of network- and he was really taken aback by the size of the web.  I asked him specifically about the size and he said roughly 1/4 of my cords are free to vibrate, maybe less, which means at least 75% of my cords are fused together.  What a sloppy outcome!  Part of me wishes a partial reduction were possible but it seems the best chance for a good outcome is a full removal, and at this point I can't really afford to roll the dice.  As always, thanks to everyone who has followed my story and shown support.   I will post details following the removal so that future patients will know what to do if they find themselves in this situation.

Great news! I'm chuffed for you, Kwala. I will keep my fingers crossed for you hun.