I take it to be not a controversial statement that not all trans people have or ever will have cis-passing privilege. It also doesn't seem controversial to me that passing as cis is indeed a great privilege. It means you have the power to disclose your trans status, to blend into society, and escape the harassment that visibly trans people experience on a daily basis. It also doesn't seem controversial to me that more trans men have cis-passing privilege than trans women.
Questions I have been pondering:
(1) What is the percentage of trans women that have cis-passing privilege?
(2) How many trans women believe they are cis-passing when they are in fact not cis-passing?
(3) Conversely, how many trans women believe they are not cis-passing when they are in fact cis-passing?
(4) How man trans women have the goal of cis-passing or would consider their transition a "failure" if they were not cis-passing?
(5) Can a desire to be cis-passing in some cases be mentally unhealthy or toxic for the trans community?
(6) What is the difference between passing and cis-passing if there is one? Can you pass for female even if you don't look cis?
(7) How many trans women feel like they are passing as female (being ma'amed in public) but don't feel like they are cis-passing? This is how I feel. I haven't been "sirred" in awhile and get "ma'amed" quite a bit but I always feel like they can tell I am trans (especially because of my voice). I don't look male - but I don't look like a cis woman either.
(8 ) How many trans women have cis-passing privilege until they open their mouth to speak?
Ok, I think that's enough questions to start a discussion. Don't feel like you have to answer all the questions if you want to contribute.
I seriously don't see the purpose of putting "cis" in front of "passing". The whole concept of passing is toxic enough without trying to pollute it further.
But to answer a couple of your questions, judging by comments on this forum there are plenty of members who trenchantly believe they don't "pass" when they clearly "should". There are plenty of trans people who believe they "don't pass" and don't care. Yes, focusing on "passing" as the be all and end all of transition is highly unhealthy for many, many reasons. I'm more focussed on living my life as the best woman I can be rather than worrying about "passing" - does that mean I don't take care with my appearance and presentation? Of course not, but I know what works for me and I use it.
I have to admit that I keep thinking that passing is something you do in various codes of football.
I'm a woman, I'm treated as such and I enjoy living as such.
Comparisons to other women who may be more or less attractive than I am for whatever reason seems to be totally futile.
Quote from: Ms Grace on November 13, 2015, 04:29:32 PM
I seriously don't see the purpose of putting "cis" in front of "passing". The whole concept of passing is toxic enough without trying to pollute it further.
I heard the term "cis-passing" at a trans panel talk last night by trans activist Cece McDonald and I felt it was a more accurate term than "passing", which is kind of vague.
Well I'm not surprised, activists usually like to create and use divisive language that only seems to inflame anger and separation. I prefer an advocacy approach of everyone getting along together based on similarity and common ground/goals.
how about cis-healing . Cis-healing is when you don't give a damn what others think because you need to heal a deep wound in your psyche and its really no one else's business.
My 2 Penneth for what it's worth, I couldn't give a damn if I'm cis passing or not. I look in the mirror and I see something I'm happy with. I haven't had a male pronoun given to me for ages, can't remember the last time it happened. I have a girly enough voice to get by and that'll do me.
With regards to my looks, I think I'm lucky enough to have started young and HRT has been kind to me; but I don't care, I know I am a woman because that's how I feel, looks wise, I think I'm beautiful. Vain as it may be, I do and I'm so happy with that. I feel sorry for all those who don't like their bodies be they cis, trans or whatever. I'm happy in who I am and I couldn't give a stuff what anyone else thinks :D xx
I don't think I even had much of the privilege of cis-passing, never mind the future problem of whether I'll trans pass. Can't miss what I never had, huh?
Passing is a very real issue because of how folks will treat you. But ... it is something that is difficult to get too wrapped up in for me at the moment.
the questions boil down to two concepts: The core concept is "what will other people think of me?" The second is, how secure do I feel that others will think what I want them to think?
In most walks of life, worrying about what other people think of you is usually something that is not at all encouraged.
In this community ... yeah, it's a bit different, because there can be some harsh repercussions for some folks that don't pass.
But that said, I still try to focus on the me, how I feel, and how I act, because those are the only variables I can control. (note: all that's easier to say since I'm not out full time, and when I am out, I know I'm not passing ... no pressure here).
Cis-passing sounds like you need the permission of one or more cis -person to live your life
I think passing privilege is mixed up with beauty privilege sometimes. I think I am not passable really, but damn I am so cute it doesn't even matter. I have pretty privilege.
Quote from: Oliviah on November 13, 2015, 06:28:27 PM
I think passing privilege is mixed up with beauty privilege sometimes. I think I am not passable really, but damn I am so cute it doesn't even matter. I have pretty privilege.
I think you have great hair privilege
Being non-binary and dressing androgynous most of the time pronouns don't bother me a lot. Most of the time I get addressed on the female side of things, though the other day a young counter clerk did call me 'sir' which I didn't mind at all because there wasn't any kind of vindictiveness behind it. Folk who address me as male in an effort to upset me though that does tend to annoy me and my usual response is to not rise to the bait and act as if I didn't hear them so they end up looking small minded and daft.
When it comes to 'passing' the only person I want to pass as is ME which I manage to do most of the time. The question of personal safety due to violence possibly being handed out mostly by cis males is always a concern in the back of my mind which means that I do take note of my surroundings and avoid situations and places that could be dangerous. I will admit though that by and large New Zealand is a safe place to live and most folk are Trans-friendly so it's not too much of a problem.
I think I have it, but then how would I know? All I can tell is that people make no difficulties for me, and that is all that matters. Everything else is just vanity. If no one ever makes an issue out of you being trans, then it does not matter.
In the absence of any prejudice or issues one would have to question why being seen as cis was so important?
Could it be that this person is transphobic about being trans? Do they secretly feel ashamed of what they are, and therefore wish to sustain the illusion that they are something they are not?
Presumably anyone who chooses illusion over truth does so because they feel that cis is in someway superior to trans! In other words they are transphobic about their own transness. That would not be a healthy or comfortable mindset for someone who IS trans to have, because it basically means they think they are inferior. That is a dirty filthy big fat offensive transphobic LIE!
Trans people are in NO WAY inferior to cis people endof!
It does bother me whenever this subject comes up. My take on this whole issue is my health which I tend to extrapolate to other trans. I liked to have a world with absolutely no prejudice of any kind what so ever . I wish humankind was capable of the kind of peace I dream of. Back to "passing", to me it's the right of every human to achieve health and this concept of passing seems to be a negation of equal heath for all, which in my personal view is wrong. Everyone wants to be beautiful which they are . Millions of years has gone into the creation of each individual. We all deserve to be seen as beautiful and not just the small % that can achieve some so called objective standard of beauty. It's wrong to deny health to someone who doesn't achieve that hypothetical objective concept of "passing". Sorry I'm ranting, just my 2.16 cents. I Use to be a Hippie so sometimes I get a little Idealist.
Quote from: stephaniec on November 13, 2015, 05:23:05 PM
how about cis-healing . Cis-healing is when you don't give a damn what others think because you need to heal a deep wound in your psyche and its really no one else's business.
Best answer. I personally want to blend in. I dont care if i pass or dont pass. I dont want to be looked at. I dress up for me not for ppl. I want to feel pretty, i dont need external validation.
But so far i found out that attitude is the best tool to blend in.
If you feel uncomfortable it shows. If you dont give a crap, people will pick up on that vibe and respect you.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: RachelsMantra on November 13, 2015, 04:14:00 PM
I take it to be not a controversial statement that not all trans people have or ever will have cis-passing privilege. It also doesn't seem controversial to me that passing as cis is indeed a great privilege. It means you have the power to disclose your trans status, to blend into society, and escape the harassment that visibly trans people experience on a daily basis. It also doesn't seem controversial to me that more trans men have cis-passing privilege than trans women.
Questions I have been pondering:
(1) What is the percentage of trans women that have cis-passing privilege?
(2) How many trans women believe they are cis-passing when they are in fact not cis-passing?
(3) Conversely, how many trans women believe they are not cis-passing when they are in fact cis-passing?
(4) How man trans women have the goal of cis-passing or would consider their transition a "failure" if they were not cis-passing?
(5) Can a desire to be cis-passing in some cases be mentally unhealthy or toxic for the trans community?
(6) What is the difference between passing and cis-passing if there is one? Can you pass for female even if you don't look cis?
(7) How many trans women feel like they are passing as female (being ma'amed in public) but don't feel like they are cis-passing? This is how I feel. I haven't been "sirred" in awhile and get "ma'amed" quite a bit but I always feel like they can tell I am trans (especially because of my voice). I don't look male - but I don't look like a cis woman either.
(8 ) How many trans women have cis-passing privilege until they open their mouth to speak?
Ok, I think that's enough questions to start a discussion. Don't feel like you have to answer all the questions if you want to contribute.
What the heck is "cis-passing" and what is the difference between that and just "passing?" And how could anyone have the precise results of some of the statistics you are asking for? Like how could anyone collect information such as "How many trans women believe they are cis-passing when they are in fact not cis-passing?" Like, how could someone really know the answer to that? ???
From what I've researched, not very many transgender women(and men) like to come out publicly enough to be recorded for statistical purposes. So I highly doubt you will receive an accurate answer to those sort of questions. And also, how exactly did you ever come to the conclusion that transmen have more "cis-passing" privilege than transwomen, whatever "cis-passing" means?
~Nixy~
Not getting ->-bleeped-<-ty looks from people wherever you go is a privilege.
Quote from: Cindy on November 13, 2015, 04:51:54 PM
Comparisons to other women who may be more or less attractive than I am for whatever reason seems to be totally futile.
Cindy, I think this is an easy statement for you and I to make. If you have secure housing in a safe area, stable employment, and prominent social standing, whether you pass as cis or not is a nicety.
When your employment depends on your employer not noticing you are trans, when being clocked in public could mean you are the victim of harassment or violence at any time, when the person you rent from could decide to evict you based on your gender identity if they found out, passing is a necessity and not passing magnifies hardship.
I just came from a conference where intersectionality and privilege were a prominent topic and it opened my eyes to how different life is for those whose economic and cultural realities don't match mine.
Again topic. I can't answer all your questions but I know I'm lucky to pass. Anytime I need to find a job in my career it's not hard to find employment. I only know this because my job would never hire someone who they knew was trans. (I can't wait to find a new company). Passing does seem to make things and life easier but you do sometimes feel like your in hiding. I know a few other girls with passing privilege.
Mod Edit- making it seem like one group is less deriving of being around because of who they are is against TOS 9 and 10.
:police:
Okay foks. Lets please not take other posters posts personally or attack them for questions and statements they make. Considering these threads tend to head nowhere good consider this your one and only warning before I locked for good. Please keep in mind TOS 5, 9, 10, and 15. Thank You
Mariah
Also don't forget TOS 7. If you have an issue with a post please report it to us rather than telling people what to or not to say on these forums. It is suppose to be open and welcome and all and you should feel free to be able to say what you need to within the rules. Thanks
Mariah
I have passing privilege but honestly I just wish everyone could go about their business and not worry about passing.
I don't necessarily subscribe to "cis" terminology usage, except in many cases of convenience (to make clear I mean non-trans) -- but I totally support trans folks who choose to do so. And I reject the idea of passing as a goal, even though I understand the safety and wellbeing aspects of it in the present day, because of rampant transphobia. All that said, I think that *all* passing is essentially "cis-passing." The whole concept of passing only exists in relation to some sort of cis standard. Which is why "passing" is a privilege. Our little slice of cis-privilege for those of us who have it.
I know people are well intentioned and as humans we use language to convey Ideas, that said, I think there is a serious flaw in the use of the word. To me there seems such an opportunity for abuse. I remember past discussions about this subject made me aware of the divergent thinking of the meaning of "passing". I for myself consider passing as not having things thrown at you while walking down the street. Others consider passing as looking like the twin sister of
Greta Garbo(which I kind of do). I mean honestly the word " passing" is an exclusionary term. I remember when I first came to the forum I heard people say that they were so afraid of not passing even if it involved a second hand out by merely walking with someone who you can tell is transitioning whether because of time or genetics or financial reasons with the inability to have FFS. As far as my personal opinion goes , I believe everyone has the right to transition if it helps them lead a happy and healthy life. The problem with this passing nonsense is that good people get thrown under the bus because they don't fit the idea hypothetical concept of what exactly it is to "pass". I much prefer for my own sanity that people would concentrate on their mental health rather than some hypothetical supposedly objective concept of what it is to" pass". So " passing" as applied to humans, would a severely disfigured burn victim "pass" as a normal person according to this hypothetical objective definition of what an individual should look like. Yes we'd all like to be supermodels , but that's not going to happen. Do we discard the ones that don't fit the hypothetical "passing model and forbid them from transitioning because they embarrass the rest who are able to fit the box.
I think it comes down to a fight over the trans narrative.
I know I am attacked for defending Nikki Araguz in regards to a trans woman who is upset her charity focuses on passing.
I believe in passing.
It isn't hostile to say don't expect to hear ma'am if you have a beard
Quote from: Oliviah on November 14, 2015, 01:34:31 PM
I think it comes down to a fight over the trans narrative.
I know I am attacked for defending Nikki Araguz in regards to a trans woman who is upset her charity focuses on passing.
I believe in passing.
It isn't hostile to say don't expect to hear ma'am if you have a beard
I agree girl world can be cruel sometimes. People don't always understand our gender identity. But I will admit more and more people are nice enough to respect us. Just certain places you have to be careful
That's true, and I think there are plenty of open minded people who are perfectly fine with the transition process.
However, in spite of being very open minded and supportive .... there can still be that initial bodily reaction that some people have when they "clock" one of us. It's not necessarily a sign of hate or revulsion, simply their reaction to something they saw that conflicted with their initial expectation, and then quickly processing how to proceed.
Getting to a point where I don't see that reaction from people is definitely a goal. However, if it isn't one that I reach, I'll be ok with that. (fair to point out, if its someone you know, or meet, you usually only have to see it once ;) ).
Thank you all for the discussion. I have learned a lot.
One of the takeaways here is:
It's (nearly) impossible to find the right set of words or concepts that will please everyone in the trans community. Rather than assuming the way I phrase things will be acceptable to everyone, I will try to bring greater awareness to place context on the language I use.
I still think the concept of "cis-passing" is helpful because it is more precise and makes clear exactly what the word "passing" implies in its underlying connotation. I agree with Kayg that all passing is cis-passing because passing only makes sense relative to the concept of cisnormativity i.e. to pass is for people to automatically think that your gender corresponds to the gender you were assigned at birth.
To "pass" according to how you yourself interpret "passing" for your self not in relation to some contrived oblique standard.
maybe some girls feel like passing means to be beautiful like a supermodel. We all have our unique charm, like anybody else. Beauty is subjective. We should focus more on living a happy life.
There are pretty women and ugly women out there. But they are all women, so are we.
I'm sorry if my comment doesn't make much sense, haha. I had a long day.
Quote from: clarabrown on November 14, 2015, 09:01:31 PM
maybe some girls feel like passing means to be beautiful like a supermodel. We all have our unique charm, like anybody else. Beauty is subjective. We should focus more on living a happy life.
There are pretty women and ugly women out there. But they are all women, so are we.
I'm sorry if my comment doesn't make much sense, haha. I had a long day.
It makes perfect sense, and is exactly what I was alluding to in an earlier post.
If we define our self worth based on a standard of passing (or cis passing, or anything similar), we risk placing our own happiness in the hands of everyone else.
In most situations in life .... that's really bad advice. We're supposed to concern ourselves with the things we can control, rather than the things we can't.
While we have some control over our appearance, the very concept of passing is completely subjective and entirely about what other people think.
for me the only time I want to pass or at least not stand out is late at night on deserted streets where creepy aggressive drunk men seem to hang out :P
my ex says no way do I pass, my sex therapist thinks I do, depending on lighting sometimes I think I do lol.
being myself and being happy is more important to me then what others think. :)
xox, Candi
Quote from: Candi.Krol on November 15, 2015, 07:07:16 PM
for me the only time I want to pass or at least not stand out is late at night on deserted streets where creepy aggressive drunk men seem to hang out :P
my ex says no way do I pass, my sex therapist thinks I do, depending on lighting sometimes I think I do lol.
being myself and being happy is more important to me then what others think. :)
xox, Candi
if you can be happy with yourself thats the most important thing of all. i mean look at all those movies about ladies who are pretty yet think they are ugly. the self confidence is everything. 8)
it's just so difficult to judge your appearance objectively and any perceived flaw gets magnified exponentially . It's difficult because basically you just want to be perceived as the proper gender and that's part of the problem because your dysphoria is entangled in that concept of looking acceptable as the proper gender. The term " passing " is understandable , but seriously flawed in how it reflects on your ability to heal yourself. I mean the word transgender is another word that people love or despise .
I believe the number of women who think they pass when they actually don't is very high. There is a tendency to think you pass just because you finally see the girl in the mirror, or just because you get ma'amed a couple times. Remember that some people can tell you're trans but still ma'am you because they are being politically correct, while some people ma'am you at first sight but upon further inspection they can read past you.
I think every girl goes through it---the blind stage where they think they pass. I look back at pics from a year ago and can't believe I thought I was hot and passing when I wasn't. I am sure I will look back a year from now at my pictures today and will find things I can critique myself on. I think the journey to passing is a long one, and can take years. We didn't grow up female, hence what other girls learned growing up---proper makeup application, hair, clothes, mannerisms---we are only starting to pick up now.
I think I am about 50% on the way to completely passing, and that is okay with me. Transition is a journey and should be enjoyed.
Edited for language. Devlyn
Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 04:37:52 AM
I believe the number of women who think they pass but actually don't is very high. There is a tendency to think you pass just because you finally see the girl in the mirror. I think every girl goes through it. I look back at pics from a year ago and can't believe I thought I was hot and passing when I wasn't. I am sure I will look back a year from now at my pictures today and will find things I can critique myself on. I think the journey to passing is a long one, and can take years. We didn't grow up female, hence what other girls learned growing up---proper makeup application, hair, clothes, mannerisms---we are only starting to pick up now.
I so agree. when guys started holding the door open and saying Ms. then flirting thats when I knew. at first id be like ,"what kind of funny business you trying to pull? oh you want my number.."
Quote from: warmbody28 on November 16, 2015, 04:41:39 AM
I so agree. when guys started holding the door open and saying Ms. then flirting thats when I knew. at first id be like ,"what kind of funny business you trying to pull? oh you want my number.."
Yeah I would say getting asked out is generally a good indication of passing. I would be careful to say that is the case for every girl though. I know a girl who had been asked out by a guy; this girl got so happy assuming she got asked out because she passed. She then gets a text from said guy where he says he had asked for her number because he was into trans girls. It broke her heart.
Remember: in an American society of increased political correctness, sexual fluidity, and men who have generally become more open-minded, it is becoming more difficult to truly gauge your passability. The only true way to see if you pass is to come out to people and see their reaction.
Quote from: RachelsMantra on November 13, 2015, 04:14:00 PM
I take it to be not a controversial statem
(8 ) How many trans women have cis-passing privilege until they open their mouth to speak?
In my opinion, a masculine looking woman with a very feminine voice will still pass a lot more than a pretty girl who has gotten FFS but has a masculine sounding voice. Voice is the most important for passing I think.
Roni you make some very good points. also something i had not thought about until now is people are now aware we can have FFS,GRS body contouring surgery and soon will know about voice surgery too. oh one girl at work also knew about adams apple shaving and how constructing a male penis is done. people are def catching on. but this can be a good thing.
and the weird this is I've noticed guys (at least some) really seem to be into androgyny or females with boyish bodies.
Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 05:30:59 AM
In my opinion, a masculine looking woman with a very feminine voice will still pass a lot more than a pretty girl who has gotten FFS but has a masculine sounding voice. Voice is the most important for passing I think.
I suspect you are right - which sucks because I have a masculine sounding voice :(
Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 04:37:52 AM
Remember that some people can tell you're trans but still ma'am you because they are being politically correct, while some people ma'am you at first sight but upon further inspection they can read past you.
I think this is definitely true of myself right now. While I can't wait until I pass better, it's not the worst thing in the world. People are nice to me. I try to be authentic and not hide who I am and people seem to respond well to that authenticity. So long as no one ever again thinks it appropriate to call me "sir" I'll be pretty happy.
Rachel, upon reading my posts and then your reply I realized it sounded like I might have been referring to you, the OP of this thread. I was using "you" as a general term to refer to any girl. Sorry I just didn't want my posts coming out the wrong way haha.
Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 08:28:41 AM
Rachel, upon reading my posts and then your reply I realized it sounded like I might have been referring to you, the OP of this thread. I was using "you" as a general term to refer to any girl. Sorry I just didn't want my posts coming out the wrong way haha.
Oh it's ok you're fine I didn't think you were talking about me but your observations very much applied in my own situation.
Of course I'm not showing a picture yet, but I will pass 98% of the time. The other 2% will be women you think something is not quite right. Very convincing to the boys it seems.
Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 04:37:52 AM
I believe the number of women who think they pass when they actually don't is very high. There is a tendency to think you pass just because you finally see the girl in the mirror, or just because you get ma'amed a couple times. Remember that some people can tell you're trans but still ma'am you because they are being politically correct, while some people ma'am you at first sight but upon further inspection they can read past you.
I think every girl goes through it---the blind stage where they think they pass. I look back at pics from a year ago and can't believe I thought I was hot and passing when I wasn't. I am sure I will look back a year from now at my pictures today and will find things I can critique myself on. I think the journey to passing is a long one, and can take years. We didn't grow up female, hence what other girls learned growing up---proper makeup application, hair, clothes, mannerisms---we are only starting to pick up now.
I think I am about 50% on the way to completely passing, and that is okay with me. Transition is a journey and should be enjoyed.
Edited for language. Devlyn
I don't see how you don't pass. Your FFS results definitely screams female.
For the other thing I agree with you. I have older pix where I thought I passed but I look like a total dude! That said I do remember genuine passing moments because people would call me "ma'am" and then switch to "sir" when they heard my voice. Thankfully that doesn't happen any more!!!
And yes the voice is the swing vote. I've always said that. I walked out the house with no makeup, light beard shadow and my hair a mess yet I always get ma'am or miss. Without fail now. I can't really remember the last time I've been called sir, he or him.
Quote from: warmbody28 on November 16, 2015, 07:57:24 AM
Roni you make some very good points. also something i had not thought about until now is people are now aware we can have FFS,GRS body contouring surgery and soon will know about voice surgery too. oh one girl at work also knew about adams apple shaving and how constructing a male penis is done. people are def catching on. but this can be a good thing.
and the weird this is I've noticed guys (at least some) really seem to be into androgyny or females with boyish bodies.
There's a guy who is very much hitting on me (and I kind of don't mind, lol) and he says he likes that I'm into science, outdoors, motorcycles and guns. So yeah, sometimes guys like girls who are into not traditionally feminine flowers.
Being asked about your period usually leaves little room for misunderstandings.
I made this really long post talking about my experiences when I didnt pass and when I did actually start passing and then when I gained beauty privilege. I'm still debating on whether or not I should post it.
Quote from: iKate on November 16, 2015, 04:34:16 PM
I don't see how you don't pass. Your FFS results definitely screams female.
For the other thing I agree with you. I have older pix where I thought I passed but I look like a total dude! That said I do remember genuine passing moments because people would call me "ma'am" and then switch to "sir" when they heard my voice. Thankfully that doesn't happen any more!!!
And yes the voice is the swing vote. I've always said that. I walked out the house with no makeup, light beard shadow and my hair a mess yet I always get ma'am or miss. Without fail now. I can't really remember the last time I've been called sir, he or him.
Personally I think, as most other girls know, that looks is just one part of the puzzle. Yes I am very content with my FFS results, but as far as mannerisms, using female speech, I believe I still have a ways to go. Hopefully voice surgery will have helped. We shall see when I return to work.
Yeah your voice passed as cis to me! No wonder you don't get sir'd anymore!
Edit: If I could have your voice I believe I'd be 90% on the way there lol!
Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 07:36:57 PM
Personally I think, as most other girls know, that looks is just one part of the puzzle. Yes I am very content with my FFS results, but as far as mannerisms, using female speech, I believe I still have a ways to go. Hopefully voice surgery will have helped. We shall see when I return to work.
Yeah your voice passed as cis to me! No wonder you don't get sir'd anymore!
Edit: If I could have your voice I believe I'd be 90% on the way there lol!
another very good point. your voice can be make or break moment. I will admit before voice surgery i use to mess with people in the drive through window on road trips. it was the funniest reactions ever
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on November 16, 2015, 07:32:54 PM
I made this really long post talking about my experiences when I didnt pass and when I did actually start passing and then when I gained beauty privilege. I'm still debating on whether or not I should post it.
Beauty privilege very much exists, especially in our community. I've observed that the prettier you are, the more people tend to respect and see you as your gender identity.
"Beauty" privilege can suck though. I don't know how many times I've voiced my dysphoria, problems with being trans in this society, only for people to dismiss the problems I go through by saying "at least you're pretty."
If some ones nice to you and you are nice back (that's all that matters), then you both passed as "nice people" I call it nice-passing
p.s putting random words in front of passing is silly, sorry for being a jerk but I jerk-pass well.
Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 08:04:30 PM
Beauty privilege very much exists, especially in our community. I've observed that the prettier you are, the more people tend to respect and see you as your gender identity.
"Beauty" privilege can suck though. I don't know how many times I've voiced my dysphoria, problems with being trans in this society, only for people to dismiss the problems I go through by saying "at least you're pretty."
Yep pretty much, like I have tons of stuff I'm still dealing with and I had someone earlier this year said, "how can you be depressed when you're so pretty" ::) I know they didn't mean to sound rude or anything, I was a bit taken back when they said it.
Quote from: Serenation on November 16, 2015, 09:33:54 PM
If some ones nice to you and you are nice back (that's all that matters), then you both passed as "nice people" I call it nice-passing
p.s putting random words in front of passing is silly, sorry for being a jerk but I jerk-pass well.
As I said before I am at the point where it really doesn't matter. I have confidence that I pass but I don't make it out to be a big deal. Isn't that the goal? Just to go about your life and not worry about your gender? I think so.
And yes I agree, "cis passing" seems like cis women are somehow "better" than us. Honestly I treat them like equals. Different in some respects but equal. They treat me like equals, at least most of them to my face. Which is all that really matters...
TL;DR - live your life. Make a reasonable effort to "pass" but don't go crazy about it.
Quote from: Juliett on November 16, 2015, 05:01:24 PM
Being asked about your period usually leaves little room for misunderstandings.
True. Happened to me most recently last week.
However if it's by a medical professional they may just have to ask those questions anyway.
I am also most embarrassed to say that because I had a few extra pounds, people asked me if I was pregnant. Or they see me and the kids and they ask me how I lost the baby weight so fast...
One thing to not forget is that the type of environment or community you belong to is also a factor.
I happen to be a huge nerd, so I go to these game shops and play cards with my guy friends and I happen to be the only girl in the shop. Most guys who go to these places are more interested with what's on the table than what kind of skirt I'm wearing. Go to the mall or to the bar and things get different, fast.
Here's the other thing: Cis girls, at least the ones I know, usually do their best to look pretty and are concerned with their appearance... passing whether cis or not, and doing so in an attractive way (to one's self or to others), is definitely an aspect of the female gender. It's also why I like being part of it. It can be unhealthy to constantly compare one's self to others, but within reason, it can also be a healthy part of your identity and self esteem. :)
Audree
It's all well and good to say that being happy with yourself is what's important, but being recognized as trans usually implies more stress, discrimination, and perhaps even violence.
I do though, think that being attractive doesn't really have anything at all to do with passing. They may become conflated in the trans community, because performatively, they may be identical practices.
Being trans is a social strata, which implies social standing, and I've read studies that say that transwomen that pass are happier, more well adjusted, and experience less stress and depression.
Of course it doesn't help to worry about it a whole bunch, and torture yourself over it, and think that it's everything. I really want to say two things, that passing is important, but only because society is rough on us, and only to the extent it makes us happier, and healthier. If the obsession makes you more depressed, and less healthy, then it is better to strive for whatever contentment you can achieve.
"passing": It means you pass AS a woman (or as a man in ftm case). It literally means, that you are not a woman, but you are passing as one. The core of this word and meaning behind it is wrong... if there needs to be the word for this, it should be changed.
"passing as cis": It means you pass AS A CIS-woman. You are not cis-woman, but you pass as one. Which (unlike "pass as a woman") does not imply that you are not a woman.
all I know is once i started living life and being accepted as female my depression went away. I didn't even know i wasn't depressed anymore until others brought it to my attention.
Quote from: audreelyn on November 16, 2015, 11:13:56 PM
One thing to not forget is that the type of environment or community you belong to is also a factor.
I happen to be a huge nerd, so I go to these game shops and play cards with my guy friends and I happen to be the only girl in the shop. Most guys who go to these places are more interested with what's on the table than what kind of skirt I'm wearing. Go to the mall or to the bar and things get different, fast.
Here's the other thing: Cis girls, at least the ones I know, usually do their best to look pretty and are concerned with their appearance... passing whether cis or not, and doing so in an attractive way (to one's self or to others), is definitely an aspect of the female gender. It's also why I like being part of it. It can be unhealthy to constantly compare one's self to others, but within reason, it can also be a healthy part of your identity and self esteem. :)
Audree
I belong to conservative circles, professionally and personally.
Sometimes I think I'm swimming in a shark tank. People accept me. Go figure.
Quote from: warmbody28 on November 17, 2015, 07:11:35 AM
all I know is once i started living life and being accepted as female my depression went away. I didn't even know i wasn't depressed anymore until others brought it to my attention.
EXACTLY. This is how one should approach life.
Quote from: iKate on November 17, 2015, 11:59:03 AM
I belong to conservative circles, professionally and personally.
Sometimes I think I'm swimming in a shark tank. People accept me. Go figure.
I've had the same experience on a professional level. (Happened to me today in a very conservative setting/meeting.) I think the issue is so many conservative who have never met a transgender woman have such a false idea of what a transgender woman looks like. Many have said they thought transgender women looked like guys in a dress and wig. They meet me and they change their attitude. (The ones that know I'm trans since some knew me prior to transitioning.) Their attitude is : "Well it's obvious that you are a woman" or "your somehow different from what I ever expected and your OK by me." Like it or not I think blending (a much better term than passing) is what causes this type of response. If your not blending, then in those conservative circles you are going to have issues with some people. It's a harsh reality that really sucks.
It does bring up something though. I transitioned to be a woman. I didn't transition to be a transgender woman. Even though I'm an advocate for transgender rights and I've even been interviewed as a transgender woman by the media for an article on transgender women in NJ, for my day to day life, I'm simply a woman. This is what makes me happy and that is my goal. So while I'm not stealth, I don't make an issue of it and if someone asks, I'll tell them, but how I present is who I am.
In an ideal world maybe we wouldn't be bothered by passing but unfortunately I think that we are held up to a standard or a set of standards that can judge us very harshly.Are you tall,how do you move,is your voice readable(tone,inflexion and style),are your shoulders wide etc etc.All of these things are there to potentially torture us and make us miserable if we want to let them.I'm no Paris Lees or Janet Mock but really nor are any of my cis friends.I'm sure I get read now and then but do I get abused for it? No I don't so thats a plus.Am I self deluding-possibly but its not a question that helps really.I am who I am with a herstory that has made me the woman I am today.Like all of us its a unique story and I do feel so privileged to be able to live my life,being who I am with very few negatives and most of all to live it in the now.
Quote from: RachelsMantra on November 13, 2015, 04:14:00 PM
I take it to be not a controversial statement that not all trans people have or ever will have cis-passing privilege. It also doesn't seem controversial to me that passing as cis is indeed a great privilege. It means you have the power to disclose your trans status, to blend into society, and escape the harassment that visibly trans people experience on a daily basis. It also doesn't seem controversial to me that more trans men have cis-passing privilege than trans women.
Questions I have been pondering:
(1) What is the percentage of trans women that have cis-passing privilege?
(2) How many trans women believe they are cis-passing when they are in fact not cis-passing?
(3) Conversely, how many trans women believe they are not cis-passing when they are in fact cis-passing?
(4) How man trans women have the goal of cis-passing or would consider their transition a "failure" if they were not cis-passing?
(5) Can a desire to be cis-passing in some cases be mentally unhealthy or toxic for the trans community?
(6) What is the difference between passing and cis-passing if there is one? Can you pass for female even if you don't look cis?
(7) How many trans women feel like they are passing as female (being ma'amed in public) but don't feel like they are cis-passing? This is how I feel. I haven't been "sirred" in awhile and get "ma'amed" quite a bit but I always feel like they can tell I am trans (especially because of my voice). I don't look male - but I don't look like a cis woman either.
(8 ) How many trans women have cis-passing privilege until they open their mouth to speak?
Ok, I think that's enough questions to start a discussion. Don't feel like you have to answer all the questions if you want to contribute.
I can obviously only speak for myself. I am very lucky that I do have "cis-passing" privilege. And I am very aware that it is a privilege.
The first three questions are kinda impossible to answer outside of just a guess. Also, I think it's hard for a trans person to judge whether or not another trans person "passes." We are the best at clocking each other. We constantly pick ourselves apart and the masculine (or feminine if you're ftm) traits get magnified and played up in our heads and we see them much more than others do. Then I think that magnification transfers to how we view other trans people as well. So I think if someone tells you they consistently get gendered correctly in all situations by strangers and is not getting strange stares on the street, it's probably pretty safe to say they're "passing." Also, remember, "passing" and physical attractiveness are two different things. I feel like often they get conflated. Not every girl who "passes" looks like Janet Mock, some look like Kathy Bates. And not every guy who passes looks like Aydian Dowling, some look like Paul Giamatti.
I do think a lot of trans people set out with the goal of "passing" in mind and are disappointed if they never reach it. I know for me, before I started HRT, everyone I was out of the closet to told me I'd have no problem, but I couldn't see it (thanks to that aforementioned magnification thing). So I wanted to get mentally okay with the idea of never passing before I even started HRT so that the journey could be about me and not about what others thought of me. And yes I think it absolutely can become an unhealthy goal or obsession.
I don't think there's a difference between "cis-passing" and "passing." I think both imply you are blending in and being read as cis. That said, even though I can't remember the last time I was sirred in any setting, sometimes I still have that same insecurity where I think maybe someone can tell I'm trans but my presentation is female so they're educated enough to use the proper pronouns. But I've had situations that proved otherwise. For example, I had to pick up a prescription yesterday. My insurance is still under my male name. So I gave that name and the pharmacist goes "what's his date of birth?" assuming that "male name" wasn't me. Then when she gave me the instructions for the medication she was like, 'tell him that he should... Etc etc.' And I was sick as a dog, not wearing makeup, in sneakers, jeans, and a long sleeve T-shirt.
In terms of voice, I went to Yeson and am one of the lucky ones who had a really good result. I don't even think about my voice anymore. It gets gendered as female even on the phone when I'm sick. That has been a HUGE confidence booster.
Quote from: RachelsMantra on November 13, 2015, 04:53:05 PM
I heard the term "cis-passing" at a trans panel talk last night by trans activist Cece McDonald and I felt it was a more accurate term than "passing", which is kind of vague.
I actually kinda like the term "cis-passing." I've never heard it before. But I've always found the term "passing" to be problematic because it implies trans people are "passing" as something they're not. By putting "cis" in front of it it clarifies it and makes it solely about passing as cis or passing among cis people as one of them. I get that's the implication of "passing" to begin with but I actually think that term is clearer. Just my two cents :-).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote(1) What is the percentage of trans women that have cis-passing privilege?
Not sure.
Quote(2) How many trans women believe they are cis-passing when they are in fact not cis-passing?
Not sure if it's relevant. If you legit live your life and never feel like you're being treated differently by anybody, why does it even matter if some people actually do know? You would have to be certifiably oblivious for this to even apply to you though.
Quote(3) Conversely, how many trans women believe they are not cis-passing when they are in fact cis-passing?
When you live as your actual gender in the real world, you receive so much feedback with every interaction you have with other people, I just think it would be really hard to not realize you pass. However, there's a lot of emotional baggage we carry and I can see it happening.
Quote(4) How man trans women have the goal of cis-passing or would consider their transition a "failure" if they were not cis-passing?
Not sure, but they shouldn't.
Quote(5) Can a desire to be cis-passing in some cases be mentally unhealthy or toxic for the trans community?
I mean if somebody realistically will never pass but will only be happy if they do, that is probably unhealthy. That's the only scenario I can see. I don't think it's toxic though.
Quote(6) What is the difference between passing and cis-passing if there is one? Can you pass for female even if you don't look cis?
I don't understand the idea of cis-passing. Passing is being perceived cis, isn't it?
Quote(7) How many trans women feel like they are passing as female (being ma'amed in public) but don't feel like they are cis-passing? This is how I feel. I haven't been "sirred" in awhile and get "ma'amed" quite a bit but I always feel like they can tell I am trans (especially because of my voice). I don't look male - but I don't look like a cis woman either.
So you mean you're being accepted as a woman, even with your trans status sometimes being perceived? Idk how many experience that, maybe a lot. It isn't a bad thing though, more it's a credit to your community and the people you interact with. Probably it also means you exude more of a womanly vibe than you might think.
Quote(8 ) How many trans women have cis-passing privilege until they open their mouth to speak?
Very many.
Bunny Bee, you'd be surprised how many of us worry about that. The worry about passing only barely registers these days when I'm wearing something low key like jeans and a tshirt, but if I wear something like a tight fitting dress I am just more worried and aware of people around me. That is amplified by the fact that of course people are going to look at you if you're wearing a bodycon dress.
Quote from: BunnyBee on November 17, 2015, 10:34:55 PM
So you mean you're being accepted as a woman, even with your trans status sometimes being perceived? Idk how many experience that, maybe a lot. It isn't a bad thing though, more it's a credit to your community and the people you interact with. Probably it also means you exude more of a womanly vibe than you might think.
I think it's definitely possible. It certainly felt like a thing for me, even amongst colleagues and friends who knew I was trans. You're right though, a lot of it definitely had to do with the fact they were open minded and accepting people anyway... I try to choose my friends and colleagues carefully.
If you have a larger body frame now that Female body building is big as well as MMA. I always tell people say you do armature MMA. people automatically thing. ,"oh ok shes cool and can kick butt." 8)
Haha, I'm actually one of the smallest people I know of for my height. Tallish (5'9") and very thin. It's more so from being so thin that I worry about my joints and all the little bumps and lack of smoothness. I know there are some celebrities and models who also have kinda gross knees, etc. but it still bothers me and makes me worry.
Quote from: Dana88 on November 17, 2015, 09:24:38 PM
So I wanted to get mentally okay with the idea of never passing before I even started HRT so that the journey could be about me and not about what others thought of me. And yes I think it absolutely can become an unhealthy goal or obsession.
Omg this is so me. Although I am actively practicing my voice and working on my presentation and deeply hoping that one day stealth will be an option, I don't think I'm anywhere near that goal and I have resigned myself to the possibility that I might never reach that goal. It is kind of a weight off my shoulders. In some respects I have even tried to develop in myself "anti-passing" sentiments i.e. feeling like I *dont* want to pass or that I shouldn't have to want to pass. Although I do really deep down want to pass, it's nice to able to entertain the opposite desire as well and be comfortable with that.
I just got tired of bouncing between two genders, Separate wardrobes, different hairstyles, different vendors and services. Then there were the accidents when I'd open the door for a deliveryman and I be a male in a T shirt with perfectly obvious big breasts. Then there was that binding routine every day that allowed my to appear as male. And all of the time I felt FEMALE. It just took be a few years to finally go over to the other side.
Quote from: Roni on November 16, 2015, 04:58:38 AM
The only true way to see if you pass is to come out to people and see their reaction.
This is true. I just assume that people eventually work out that I am trans and I try not to worry about it since there is nothing I can do about it anyway.
You can't really assume anything about how people are perceiving you. As an example this past weekend a girl friend and I attended a small conference at a local hotel. I was seated at a table with my friend and 3 other women.The conference began with each of us having to give a 60-90 second talk to the people at our table which I assumed outed me due to my marginally feminine voice.
After a long day of listening to a speaker talk I was chatting with one of the women and I mentioned that I am trans only because it was appropriate to some of the material that was discussed at the conference. I saw her expression change for just a brief second - apparently my being transgender surprised her, and her surprise surprised me.
The concept of passing means something different to each one of us. To me passing is primarily about A) my safety, and B) acceptance by others as the person I am. If I am experiencing both A & B I am satisfied, regardless of what people know or are thinking about me.
Quote(1) What is the percentage of trans women that have cis-passing privilege?
It's depends very much. Some trans women look very female and cis, other doesn't. Not everybody is lucky. So it's from person to person. How many percentage it is doesn't we know. I hasn't heard about any tests or something that's give us a answer at that.
Quote(2) How many trans women believe they are cis-passing when they are in fact not cis-passing?
I don't really know. But I guess it's very few of them who believe they are passing when they are not. I think it's more from the opposite.
Quote(3) Conversely, how many trans women believe they are not cis-passing when they are in fact cis-passing?
I have no idea at this either. But it's very many.
Quote(4) How man trans women have the goal of cis-passing or would consider their transition a "failure" if they were not cis-passing?
It's a lot, but I hasn't number at that either.
Quote(5) Can a desire to be cis-passing in some cases be mentally unhealthy or toxic for the trans community?
In my option it's very natural passing is important. Many wish people to see their true gender. But thinking too much at passing may be unhealthy and give you too much worries.
Quote(6) What is the difference between passing and cis-passing if there is one? Can you pass for female even if you don't look cis?
I've never heard the term "Cispassing". But I have heard the word "passing" multiple of times. I doesn't think there are any difference. Passing is passing: (People believe you're the gender you feel as and can't see your biological sex.)
Quote(7) How many trans women feel like they are passing as female (being ma'amed in public) but don't feel like they are cis-passing? This is how I feel. I haven't been "sirred" in awhile and get "ma'amed" quite a bit but I always feel like they can tell I am trans (especially because of my voice). I don't look male - but I don't look like a cis woman either.
It's many trans women who get ma'amed etc. because people understand it's what they want too. But not everybody really pass even they get ma'amed. I use only one term and that's "pass/passing". I hasn't so many terms as you.
I'm a guy who passed some times even I doesn't think I'm passable at all. I pass almost all the times. When I'm not passing, it's often because my family and other people I know destroy it. I'm still inside the closet.
Quote(8 ) How many trans women have cis-passing privilege until they open their mouth to speak?
I have no exactly numbers at this question. But it's very normal and typically many passing until they start to talk. Trans guys has that problem too before they starts at T. But removing the guy voice after HRT is often harder than get a guy voice at HRT/T.
Quote from: RachelsMantra on November 13, 2015, 04:14:00 PM
Questions I have been pondering:
(1) What is the percentage of trans women that have cis-passing privilege?
(2) How many trans women believe they are cis-passing when they are in fact not cis-passing?
(3) Conversely, how many trans women believe they are not cis-passing when they are in fact cis-passing?
(4) How man trans women have the goal of cis-passing or would consider their transition a "failure" if they were not cis-passing?
(5) Can a desire to be cis-passing in some cases be mentally unhealthy or toxic for the trans community?
(6) What is the difference between passing and cis-passing if there is one? Can you pass for female even if you don't look cis?
(7) How many trans women feel like they are passing as female (being ma'amed in public) but don't feel like they are cis-passing? This is how I feel. I haven't been "sirred" in awhile and get "ma'amed" quite a bit but I always feel like they can tell I am trans (especially because of my voice). I don't look male - but I don't look like a cis woman either.
(8 ) How many trans women have cis-passing privilege until they open their mouth to speak?
1- Nearly no one. I'd say a 3-5%
2- the most narcissistic ones, probably.
3- A lot of trans girls can potentially blend in but their own perceptions are holding them back. I don't know if this helps.
4- no idea. That's a silly goal to have, in my humble opinion. My transition was internal on a 90% and 10% cosmetic. I transitioned for myself. Not for people to look at me.
5- I wouldn't say mentally unhealthy or toxic, but its probably narcissistic and could make some girls feel really miserable if they don't pass.
6- ir sounds, to me, that passing means blending in, being unnoticed, not being misgendered etc. Cis passing is to look and act like a cis woman and nobody would ever know you were born with the wrong genitals
7- no idea
8- Probably a few but not a lot of them. Anybody can develop a beautiful voice. But looks, thats a little bit harder, surgeries and hrt arent magical and genetics are 90%
Interesting questions! hugs.