Why do we want to transition?
A theory I have is that after we meet our bodily needs, everything we do is related to our desire to feel love. Thus, to answer my question, I tried to imagine myself in a world where I was the only human. In this situation I don't think I would have a concept of what it means to appear my gender, as there would be no one to contrast myself against. Thus, transitioning would not have any meaning to me.
Using this thought experiment and my theory, the answer to my question seems to be we want to transition in order express how our inner self contrasts with other individuals' inner selves, so that we can we loved for who we are. I've expressed this conclusion to one other transgender individual, and it resonated, but maybe I'm entirely off, so I would love to hear how you would answer this question.
The reason I want to is so I can look in the mirror and say, "What up, my main man!" :P I say that to myself already even though I have not medically transitioned yet. But after I do, it will actually mean something to me.
Not to sound like a narcissist, but I am caring less about others' opinions of me and more focused on my internal self and aligning that with my external self for me and no one else. :D
Yes, life is good when you are the one who truly loves yourself even if no one else does.
I have to say this really resonates with me as well. I read a quote from somewhere a while back which basically stated that who we are is some combination of our inner selves and the way we interact with the people around us.
For me, those two halves are so far apart that it gives me serious concern about who I really am. For a long time, before I was aware of this dichotomy, I felt empty. As if all I was capable of doing was interacting with others, or working on some project, or just keeping myself busy. I felt outside of that, that there was nobody inside, no emotion, no soul. Ever since I've been able to glimpse who's actually down there, and to even accept her, I've wanted nothing more than to let her free. I want to transition because for the first time in a very long time, instead of feeling empty, I find my inner self bursting at the seems, ready to live life.
I'm not sure that's all of it, it's not all about an external manifestation for me. There are parts, completely invisible parts, that I think I would long for even in the thought experiment world. Specifically, the hormones. Simply put, I like the way my brain runs on estrogen, even without accompanying physical changes. I'm still a baby when it comes to hormones, my body has yet to really feminize, and yet I feel better than I ever had on them. I can't double blind this and remove the placebo effect from the equation, 'natch, but that's just how it's working for me. Thus, I conclude, that even without a "contrast" I would want to transition, to put the diesel in my diesel engine over the unleaded that was there before.
To. Be. Healthy. Period. Since I was 19, I've had my fights with the bottle. I always thought I was a binge alcoholic. In college, every Thursday night in the dorms (party night) I tried to drink myself into oblivion. As I got older I binged less and less often, sometimes going years between binges.
In the past ten years, I also suffered panic attacks, anxiety, and high blood pressure. Alcohol also started to creep back into the picture, with me sometimes drinking three or four beers on a Friday night when I was feeling the stress.
But when I came out to myself and started crossdressing, a funny thing happened. The high blood pressure went away. The panic attacks stopped. And I have not touched a drop of alcohol since, other than one glass of wine on Thanksgiving. And I stopped with that glass of wine when I started to feel a little drunk. There are six or seven beers in the fridge that have been there since April or May. I just do not have the desire to consume alcohol any more.
It turns out I'm not an alcoholic. I'm a girl. And it matters a lot to me to see a girl when I look in the mirror, even if she is not attractive.
Hi Tamika,
I also feel like it may not be all of it. When I was imagining the thought experiment, I wondered what would happen if I came across something that increased my estrogen. Would I want more of it? I'm tempted to say yes, but I question why a more feminine mind set would be pleasing to me in isolation.
Quote from: autumn08 on December 14, 2015, 05:55:15 PM
Hi Tamika,
I also feel like it may not be all of it. When I was imagining the thought experiment, I wondered what would happen if I came across something that increased my estrogen. Would I want more of it? I'm tempted to say yes, but I question why a more feminine mind set would be pleasing to me in isolation?
Our brains are pleasure seeking, pain avoiding devices, crafted by eons of evolution. We don't subjectively seek food because we know our bodies die without it, sleep because our brains decay without it, or sex because our genes don't get passed on because we can't have it... we seek to do these things, subjectively, because they feel good. For whatever reason, be it genetic or hormonal, our brains crave estrogen. We'd keep seeking it, even without an understanding of why, because it feels good to us.
I agree that all of our experiences are subjective, and that we are inseparable from our bodies, but it would seem evolution created our hormones to help us survive socially.
Also, I agree we act, and then reason, but would the body create pleasure when ingesting the hormones of our gender, without a society?
Eh, evolution doesn't really care about our survival. It's all about passing on the genes. And not necessarily the genes in our bodies. Kin selection is one of the more prominent evolutionary explanations for homosexuality. The thinking goes that our siblings carry most of our genes, and in some cases selection pressures favor behaviors that allow the gene copy in the sibling to survive, even at the expense of the genes in the host body. Homosexuality could have evolved as a resource diversion mechanism in kin selection processes, the gay person is not worried about passing on their genes, so their resources can be partially diverted into helping the sibling survive. A similar explanation could exist for the craving of opposite sex hormones. Us being trans could help other versions of the trans gene (or genes) survive in our siblings.
Or, alternatively, transness could be a evolutionary misfire. Dawkins attributes altruism in a modern society to a misfiring of the instinct towards reciprocal altruism. We survive in the wild based on our status with in groups, and we can lower that by failing to pay kindnesses or return on past kindnesses. In the modern world, that group memory for our status is rarely present, but our minds are still firing on those old triggers, we are kind due to that misfiring. Maybe, in the modern world, being trans doesn't do much for our genes, but in our evolutionary past, the behaviors associated with being trans lead to some increased survival chance. We just live in a world where we can take those behaviors to their full and complete fruition, even if it nixes our ability to pass on our genes. Which, by the by, isn't necessarily a bad thing, overpopulation being what it is.
Or it could be a mutation in our genetic code, or an event in the womb environment, or an epigenetic trigger. In any case, the mind is the play thing of the body (which includes the brain) and we would be this way even without the social context provided by existing gender structures.
Also, I agree we act, and then reason, but would the body create pleasure when ingesting the hormones of our gender, without a society?
I don't see any reason why they wouldn't. I reason we would also eat, sleep, and masturbate. Without the social net of other beings of our species, we wouldn't pass on our genes by doing so, but all the same programming would be there.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge about evolution, Tamika. I don't doubt at all that homosexual and transgender individuals are the product of evolution.
Of course the desire to be female would still exist at least in a latent state, in the thought experiment world, as it is innate to us, but would the body ever activate this desire? Would it be like still possessing the ability to be hungry, but never feeling hunger?
Maybe the issue is that I'm trying to separate bodily and social needs, even though I know they both derive from the body. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that our social needs, require a society to activate, but I just can't imagine the form that would take, without there being a society present.
Quote from: autumn08 on December 14, 2015, 07:41:03 PM
Thank you for sharing your knowledge about evolution, Tamika. I don't doubt at all that homosexual and transgender individuals are the product of evolution.
Of course the desire to be female would still exist at least in a latent state, in the thought experiment world, as it is innate to us, but would the body ever activate this desire? Would it be like still possessing the ability to be hungry, but never feeling hunger?
Maybe the issue is that I'm trying to separate bodily and social needs, even though I know they both derive from the body. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that our social needs, require a society to activate, but I just can't imagine the form that would take, without there being a society present.
I can only answer with my own experiences. Intellectually, before coming out to myself, I didn't know that I was trans. It took a magic bullet, a missing puzzle piece, to bring that realization to the front. I felt depression, anxiety, and disconnect from my body. I can't imagine I would feel any different in a world with no cis-women around to compare to. My brain would still want the estrogen, and hate the T, I just wouldn't ever get the magic bullet in that world. Unless I ate an estro plant or something of that sort.
It's the engine analogy again. Take the diesel engine, put it in a world where no engines exist, load it with unleaded and it's going to destroy itself. Take a brain that, by it's genetic design, needs Estrogen and run it on T... and you get an unhappy brain. Even if the brain can never figure out why it's unhappy without social cues to direct it.
I think the reason I don't entirely agree the engine analogy is parallel, is because I believe society is essential for there to be an engine. I can't see how changing the ratios of estrogen and testosterone would mean anything without it. Society, to me, seems as much a part of us as our bodies.
Quote from: CarlyMcx on December 14, 2015, 05:53:39 PM
To. Be. Healthy. Period. Since I was 19, I've had my fights with the bottle. I always thought I was a binge alcoholic. In college, every Thursday night in the dorms (party night) I tried to drink myself into oblivion. As I got older I binged less and less often, sometimes going years between binges.
In the past ten years, I also suffered panic attacks, anxiety, and high blood pressure. Alcohol also started to creep back into the picture, with me sometimes drinking three or four beers on a Friday night when I was feeling the stress.
But when I came out to myself and started crossdressing, a funny thing happened. The high blood pressure went away. The panic attacks stopped. And I have not touched a drop of alcohol since, other than one glass of wine on Thanksgiving. And I stopped with that glass of wine when I started to feel a little drunk. There are six or seven beers in the fridge that have been there since April or May. I just do not have the desire to consume alcohol any more.
It turns out I'm not an alcoholic. I'm a girl. And it matters a lot to me to see a girl when I look in the mirror, even if she is not attractive.
This is so inspiring and touching for me to hear.
I struggle with urges such as the one you spoke of about alcohol binge drinking. My mom has drank much of her life since age 19 (like you, except it sounds like you've overcame this monster in the nick of time) up until about age 59. As an irreversible result of her ways with alcohol, she is finally paying the price with the loss of her memory (dementia.) She can't even remember important conversations, such as the one I had with her when I came out to her.
I'm glad transitioning saved your life...literally.
I guess for me, alcohol is a way for me to self-medicate against horrors such as social anxiety and depression. Sometimes they get so bad in public that I look like I am mad at the world, but in reality, I am very afraid. Alcohol lifts me off the ground and feel like I can do anything.
But I wish I knew another way. Luckily my budget sucks major eggs, so I don't have the luxury of hoping in a car of my own whenever I please and drive to the gas station or corner store for a couple of 40 ounces like my mama used to do every single day. Oh yeah, she also screwed up her liver, made it hard from heavy drinking and also has acquired cirrhosis of the liver.
So yeah, its a great thing you stopped. I'm proud of you for that, Carly. :)
Quote from: autumn08 on December 14, 2015, 08:29:32 PM
I think the reason I don't entirely agree the engine analogy is parallel, is because I believe society is essential for there to be an engine. I can't see how changing the ratios of estrogen and testosterone would mean anything without it. Society, to me, seems as much a part of us as our bodies.
The brain is a thing, just like the engine. If the thing requires "X" to operate and maximum efficiency, then it requires "X" no matter what universe you plop it down in. The only away from that conclusion that I can see is epigenetics. Societal pressures are the epigenetic switch that causes the brain to switch on a need for a particular hormone. Absent a flick of that switch, the craving could never surface. Like if the engine had a dual fuel chamber and a switch that makes it run off of a single type only (my ignorance of combustion is showing, methinks). Absent a finger to flick the switch, the default would be towards both.
It's possible, I suppose. We just don't know enough about the biological roots of gender identity. At the end of the day though, those are very particular circumstances, and there's no reason to prefer that as an answer for gender identity over any other biological explanation. So, to answer your original question, we transition because something in our brain, be it a genetic hardwire or a flipped epigenetic switch, commands us to do so.
Some people may do it to be more easily loved and accepted but I can't agree in my case. I am not loved nor especially accepted and I don't really care. I only need the level of acceptance that means an angry mob isn't baying at my door or people aren't firing me or punching me on sight. I mean, sure, I'd like to be loved for who I am but that doesn't seem to be happening. And I just gotta live my life in the meantime, there isn't time to hang around waiting for other people to start loving and accepting.
The reason I want to do it is because I want to see if I can be happier with myself, and for myself. Not really for anyone else.
I agree, no man is an island, but there will always be that small % of us who never really fit in and don't lose much sleep over the fact. We know we exist within society and are subject to it, but it doesn't really determine our path.
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on December 14, 2015, 08:47:07 PM
And I just gotta live my life in the meantime, there isn't time to hang around waiting for other people to start loving and accepting.
The reason I want to do it is because I want to see if I can be happier with myself, and for myself. Not really for anyone else.
I agree, no man is an island, but there will always be that small % of us who never really fit in and don't lose much sleep over the fact. We know we exist within society and are subject to it, but it doesn't really determine our path.
Awesome. :)
Thank you for the conversation Tamika, and for answering my question in such an extraordinary manner. I hope it doesn't seem like I am trying to diminish our experience, because I don't think the cause makes a difference. I just felt it was an interesting subject to talk about.
I need to go now, but thank you everyone for responding, and I will check on this thread tomorrow.
Quote from: autumn08 on December 14, 2015, 08:55:35 PM
Thank you for the conversation Tamika, and for answering my question in such an extraordinary manner. I hope it doesn't seem like I am trying to diminish our experience, because I don't think the cause makes a difference. I just felt it was an interesting subject to talk about.
I need to go now, but thank you everyone for responding, and I will check on this thread tomorrow.
Happy to have the conversation, and I never got the impression you were trying to diminish. I'm a big fan of gaming this stuff out on philosophical and scientific spectrums, so I had a lot of fun!
Dear Autumn:
Here's an interesting link: http://www.trans-spirits.org/spirit_of_transgender.html
I have no basic disagreement with what you have said, though I would personally add that the matter of 'self' looms large in this discussion, or as some native Americans might say, "The spirit." There are things going on within the transgender person at the moment of gender variance that don't occur in others, especially a profound lack of connection to who we versus how the world perceives us. Society sets many trip wires throughout life for the trans-person revealing to us a lack of connection or misalignment if you will, but I think misalignment gives the trans condition short shrift. We have much more than that going on before us consciously and subconsciously as we sense we are not connected to who we truly are.
Turning to early American culture: Our spirit and corporal being are not sufficiently connected to allow us to live without significant dissonance in our lives, as the corporal world jarringly confronts us with societal interactions bombarding our spiritual sense of being. This occurs through various queues, mores, rules, proxies, etc. that when presented to us are more like miscues and at the best make us uncomfortable and often finding life full of unacceptable/unwanted protocols, rules, proscriptions, etc.
There's quite a bit written about this . . . a little Googling will provide a wealth of information.
Liked your comments a lot. Thanks,
Rachel
Quote from: Tamika Olivia on December 14, 2015, 08:43:05 PM
The brain is a thing, just like the engine. If the thing requires "X" to operate and maximum efficiency, then it requires "X" no matter what universe you plop it down in. The only away from that conclusion that I can see is epigenetics. Societal pressures are the epigenetic switch that causes the brain to switch on a need for a particular hormone. Absent a flick of that switch, the craving could never surface. Like if the engine had a dual fuel chamber and a switch that makes it run off of a single type only (my ignorance of combustion is showing, methinks). Absent a finger to flick the switch, the default would be towards both.
It's possible, I suppose. We just don't know enough about the biological roots of gender identity. At the end of the day though, those are very particular circumstances, and there's no reason to prefer that as an answer for gender identity over any other biological explanation. So, to answer your original question, we transition because something in our brain, be it a genetic hardwire or a flipped epigenetic switch, commands us to do so.
What I meant by there not being an engine, without society, was not there we wouldn't have a brain, and I don't think anyone can argue against us wanting to transition because of something in our brain. The point I was trying to make was that an engine does not run the same in every environment, and that our need to transition may become latent in my thought experiment.
I think I should elaborate on my theory that after we meet our bodily needs, everything we do is related to our desire to feel love. The reason I say this is because without society we would not be able to define who we are socially, and we would not be able to attach valuations to our social actions. Thus, by love I mean the pleasure we receive from certain social actions.
Social is important but health for me is a big one. The things i suffered with before are largely gone. If i was stranded on a deserted island i'd still have transitioned. (hopefully id find a crate of estradiol)
Because; 1) I have never known an existence without people and emotionally i would still have that connection to my past. 2) Looking in a mirror and seeing myself as a woman is very important. Perhaps that itself is a spiritual thing.
Quote from: Qrachel on December 15, 2015, 01:40:34 AM
Dear Autumn:
Here's an interesting link: http://www.trans-spirits.org/spirit_of_transgender.html
I have no basic disagreement with what you have said, though I would personally add that the matter of 'self' looms large in this discussion, or as some native Americans might say, "The spirit." There are things going on within the transgender person at the moment of gender variance that don't occur in others, especially a profound lack of connection to who we versus how the world perceives us. Society sets many trip wires throughout life for the trans-person revealing to us a lack of connection or misalignment if you will, but I think misalignment gives the trans condition short shrift. We have much more than that going on before us consciously and subconsciously as we sense we are not connected to who we truly are.
Turning to early American culture: Our spirit and corporal being are not sufficiently connected to allow us to live without significant dissonance in our lives, as the corporal world jarringly confronts us with societal interactions bombarding our spiritual sense of being. This occurs through various queues, mores, rules, proxies, etc. that when presented to us are more like miscues and at the best make us uncomfortable and often finding life full of unacceptable/unwanted protocols, rules, proscriptions, etc.
There's quite a bit written about this . . . a little Googling will provide a wealth of information.
Liked your comments a lot. Thanks,
Rachel
Thank you for adding a new perspective to this conversation, Rachel! I'm reading the link you posted on the spirit, now, and it seems very interesting.
Quote from: autumn08 on December 15, 2015, 12:09:04 PM
What I meant by there not being an engine, without society, was not there we wouldn't have a brain, and I don't think anyone can argue against us wanting to transition because of something in our brain. The point I was trying to make was that an engine does not run the same in every environment, and that our need to transition may become latent in my thought experiment.
Aye, I think I got what you were going for, and didn't believe you were saying the brain wouldn't exist. You were saying the experience of gender maybe couldn't exist without the context of society to birth it into our brains. The only way I could see that manifesting within the confines of known human biology is an epigenetic trigger.
I could definitely see it shaking out that way, but absent corroborating evidence and given the wealth of other biological explainations, I can't see setting on that as the absolute conclusion. Keen answer being, we just can't know whether gender would be experienced in a world without society, but there are explanations that would allow for either possibility.
For me it was about being my authentic self and matching the gender i always knew I was especially considering I was born intersex. So as result aligning my body the way I always new and felt they should have has been a extremely important part of my transition. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: Tamika Olivia on December 15, 2015, 07:55:55 PM
Aye, I think I got what you were going for, and didn't believe you were saying the brain wouldn't exist. You were saying the experience of gender maybe couldn't exist without the context of society to birth it into our brains. The only way I could see that manifesting within the confines of known human biology is an epigenetic trigger.
I could definitely see it shaking out that way, but absent corroborating evidence and given the wealth of other biological explainations, I can't see setting on that as the absolute conclusion. Keen answer being, we just can't know whether gender would be experienced in a world without society, but there are explanations that would allow for either possibility.
Very eloquently said. Yesterday, I had to go before I read the post of yours that I quoted, and I wasn't sure if you knew that I agreed with you.
Ive never felt proper in my body, i remember back to the age of 5-6 wishing i could be like my mom and sister.
I want to transition so i can be the real me ive always wanted to be. Luckily my wife understands to a degree, weve agreed i can do hrt but will remain private as a tom boy in public lol.
No dresses for me but i like it that way as its not my style, luckily fashion these days is pretty androgenous and i can sexy it up in mens or womens jeans without raising an eyebrow.
Eventually depending on the breast growth i may have to consider a binder or coming out to the public but ill cross that bridge when i get to it.
~Shan~
Quote from: autumn08 on December 15, 2015, 12:19:08 PM
I think I should elaborate on my theory that after we meet our bodily needs, everything we do is related to our desire to feel love. The reason I say this is because without society we would not be able to define who we are socially, and we would not be able to attach valuations to our social actions. Thus, by love I mean the pleasure we receive from certain social actions.
How then do you explain monks, hermits and the like? People who were born in society but ultimately reject it for a simple, spiritual life? Who do not require approval from fellow humans - and often enough do not seek love of the various kinds?
I've kind of become a hermit of a sort myself. I still interact on the net and with a small few people in life (although the latter are constantly frustrating rather than pleasurable) but I don't do it for love or approval, but for knowledge and self-betterment. I don't think everyone's imperative is necessarily to be congruent with society or to find affection from human beings. There has always - historically - and probably since the dawn of the species, been a certain number and type of people who do not seek this. I agree that initially the desire for love and acceptance is there for us as children, but not everyone spends their whole lives wanting it.
I've come to the realization over time that I have always been left wanting for the kind of interaction and socializing I always desired, and not through lack of people to interact with or for lack of trying. That perhaps in the end it does not need to come from other people. It could come from meditation, oneself, or some other source. I've always enjoyed the interaction and affection of animals better, for example. Animals are simpler creatures, most cant lie or scheme and their company is far more therapeutic for me than 99% of other humans.
As for if gender would exist without society, I'm fairly sure it would. Humans still need to breed to keep on existing, and to do that would still need to identify each other by noting the differences and characteristics of the sexes. As animals we simplify information, create stereotypes from it, and so even if humans were a non-pairing, non-social species like, say, tigers... there would still be a concept of gender there for them to draw upon. In fact, maybe for creatures like tigers it is even more important than it is for us to quickly identify a gender or a sex. With less interaction, there is less time to make good on those vital cues. Although there's less sexual dimorphism among tigers than there is in humans, they use other forms of identification like smell. Their smells are gendered, our appearances are gendered, since our sense of smell sucks in comparison. The only reason the concepts of gender evolved and continue to exist in the first place is because having them and applying roles by them made us a very successful species in the past. So... yes, I think they would certainly still exist, because of biology which cannot be changed. For some reason people think these days that gender is all in the mind. But if you look at other animals there is certainly 'gendering' going on, especially among the higher primates, who will take on roles and treat each other differently according to their sex. So, how can it be all in the mind, unless these animals too have social constructs? More likely they do have social constructs, because those constructs were logical when it comes to survival and passing on genes.
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on December 15, 2015, 08:48:55 PM
How then do you explain monks, hermits and the like? People who were born in society but ultimately reject it for a simple, spiritual life? Who do not require approval from fellow humans - and often enough do not seek love of the various kinds?
I've kind of become a hermit of a sort myself. I still interact on the net but I don't do it for love or approval, but for knowledge and self-betterment. I don't think everyone's imperative is necessarily to be congruent with society or to find affection from human beings. There has always - historically - and probably since the dawn of the species, been a certain number and type of people who do not seek this. I agree that initially the desire for love and acceptance is there for us as children, but not everyone spends their whole lives wanting it.
I've come to the realization over time that I have always been left wanting for the kind of interaction and socializing I always desired, and not through lack of people to interact with or for lack of trying. That perhaps in the end it does not need to come from other people. It could come from meditation, oneself, or some other source. I've always enjoyed the interaction and affection of animals better, for example. Animals are simpler creatures, they do not lie or scheme and their company is far more therapeutic for me than 99% of other humans.
Thank you for replying T.K.G.W.. Correct me if I'm not being fair; your point is an individual who is born in society, can experience greater pleasure being separate from it.
The reason this individual experiences greater pleasure being separate from society, is because of their valuation of certain social actions. These valuations were established by the whether the individual perceived society's response to their actions as painful, or pleasurable.
This is not to say we are born blank slates. Life is a realization of who we are, but my theory is that the realization of our social self, requires society. We would still want to fulfill our social needs if society was never present, but we would never experience these needs if we had no concept of society.
As organisms that have evolved over millions of years in a social setting - everyone has a family, no child will survive without someone to look after it - then sure, obviously we are all inescapably wired for social interaction. In fact I believe a human raised alone, completely alone, would be an irreparably damaged one. It was proven with monkeys in labs that isolation destroys their minds after a certain period of time, rendering them effectively insane and inoperable within a normal social setting. Humans placed in similar situations usually call this a form of torture and are damaged by it as well.
Since we are inescapably by and of human society - then yes, we have to approach self-actualization through its lens. We are all taught language for example - we cannot undo this and think in raw thoughts about ourselves. But I believe you were initially saying that we transition in order to be able to socialize better. Which, I have to disagree with. While some aspects of it involve smoother interaction, some are most definitely personal and not requiring the interaction with or acceptance of other people. And most of us are aware that transition does not solve all of these problems - and in fact can make some interactions worse and more fraught with difficulty. It's an interesting thing, then, that transition is still undertaken knowing it would be far easier for our socialization and relations, not to... isn't it? If anything we risk ostracism, physical harm, discrimination and even potential death in the hope that we will somehow find this love? I think the driving force behind many transitions isn't others and our relationship with others - it is ourselves and our relationship with ourselves. Certainly our relationship with ourselves has been colored by the society we live in to some degree. But the importance society plays in people's transitions appears to be on a broad scale. There is something very primitive and wordless about the gender dysphoria I felt as a child. I had no concept of it, what it meant, where it came from, or had the words to describe it. But it was there all the same, without society's input on it. Later, society's input magnified the dysphoria, made it more visible and describable. But if I were to say it could not have existed without society's input and definitions... my own experience seems to indicate that a prototype of the conflict was already present, long before I became sociable. (And I was raised by parents who deliberately refused to push gender roles onto me, and in a very small social circle of just them until I was 7). This is actually why I think I didn't realize the extent of the problem until much later than some do. Even so, by puberty, what my body was doing was simply traumatic, without explanation.
I have no idea what kind of notion a human raised outside of human society would have of itself and of gender, because such a human does not apparently exist than we can speak to to get the answers from... perhaps they would view themselves very differently without the monoliths of gender and roles to conform to. But given that it's been shown transsexualism can be innate and be realized even when the person has been secretly raised as the gender it is not... I still suspect there's a strong subconscious biological component to what we are and what we suffer from. That it isn't a choice, or gender roles, but that the brain and the body are at war.
If we had no concept of society, I still think trans conditions would be a problem for those afflicted. That is, trans conditions are not an illness of our social self. They include the social self of course, so to some extent require it, but that they cannot be only conditions of the social self. How could I have developed [gender] dysphoria without a full concept of gender? Somehow, I did. Which is why at the time I didn't put it down to gender, but some problem with my mind or just general operation. When the body started changing - the wrong ways - that also wasn't a social problem, but a physical disease, to me. At that age I was not even all that familiar with the physical characteristics of the opposite sex to know I was moving away from it.
I will say there are many aspects about being born the wrong gender that are socialized. But the main ones that encourage me to transition are simply physical, nothing to do with anybody else, or especially to do with interaction, nothing I want to show off or make known. They are things that will only make life more bearable on a personal level, but obviously more difficult on a social level. So I'm not sure how I am doing this for the love of others, or the smoother interaction with others. I know it's going to be tougher interacting with them afterwards, that relationships will be harder, probably to the point I will not bother with them. If anything doing this is going to make my social life worse. But it's still worth it, to feel right for oneself.
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on December 15, 2015, 09:54:53 PM
As organisms that have evolved over millions of years in a social setting - everyone has a family, no child will survive without someone to look after it - then sure, obviously we are all inescapably wired for social interaction. In fact I believe a human raised alone, completely alone, would be an irreparably damaged one. It was proven with monkeys in labs that isolation destroys their minds after a certain period of time, rendering them effectively insane and inoperable within a normal social setting. Humans placed in similar situations usually call this a form of torture and are damaged by it as well.
Since we are inescapably by and of human society - then yes, we have to approach self-actualization through its lens. We are all taught language for example - we cannot undo this and think in raw thoughts about ourselves. But I believe you were initially saying that we transition in order to be able to socialize better. Which, I have to disagree with. While some aspects of it involve smoother interaction, some are most definitely personal and not requiring the interaction with or acceptance of other people. And most of us are aware that transition does not solve all of these problems - and in fact can make some interactions worse and more fraught with difficulty. It's an interesting thing, then, that transition is still undertaken knowing it would be far easier for our socialization and relations, not to... isn't it? If anything we risk ostracism, physical harm, discrimination and even potential death in the hope that we will somehow find this love? I think the driving force behind many transitions isn't others and our relationship with others - it is ourselves and our relationship with ourselves.
I have no idea what kind of notion a human raised outside of human society would have of itself and of gender, because such a human does not apparently exist than we can speak to to get the answers from... perhaps they would view themselves very differently without the monoliths of gender and roles to conform to. But given that it's been shown transsexualism can be innate and be realized even when the person has been secretly raised as the gender it is not... I still suspect there's a strong subconscious biological component to what we are and what we suffer from. That it isn't a choice, or gender roles, but that the brain and the body are at war.
What I said in my initial post was not that we transition to socialize better, but rather so we may experience more social pleasure/love. Also, I never said the fact that we are transgender is not innate (who we are is innate), just that it may be latent without the presence of society.
The concept I think I should elaborate on, is that our self love is based on our valuation of our social actions, which is based on our perception of whether society's response to our actions is painful, or pleasurable. Whether we do something for others, or for ourselves, we are doing it for ourselves, but my theory is that we require a social stimulus to transition for ourselves.
Let put it another way. We want to be loved. To be loved we must be seen. To have a concept of love, we must have a concept of what it is to be seen.
Thank you for the discussion T.K.G.W! :)
I'm sorry, I need to go again, but if anyone would like to continue this discussion, I will respond tomorrow.
Quote from: autumn08 on December 15, 2015, 10:36:00 PM
What I said in my initial post was not that we transition to socialize better, but rather so we may experience more social pleasure/love. Also, I never said the fact that we are transgender is not innate (who we are is innate), just that it may be latent without the presence of society.
But do trans people achieve that? Most of them I have interacted with know the path is long and difficult and in the end usually say things like "I don't regret it, because I am happier in myself". Which implies that social pleasure or love isn't necessarily there for them all of the time. Or that what they got wasn't necessarily what they thought they would get. I know some who live alone, because finding some of that social pleasure is much more difficult for them post transition. Reading and talking about this issue and the experiences of other trans people further along than I am, I too am aware that transition may not - will probably not - lead to more social pleasure/love. Why then am I still doing it? I know it is not to conform better, because to my thinking being trans and transitioning is harder than any other option. It will probably not make me a more social person, the damage is already done there. Interactions with people may likely be all the worse because I will be hiding a "secret" (for the rest of my life) and I don't enjoy hiding things. So will it really be a path to more social pleasure?
QuoteThe concept I think I should elaborate on, is that our self love is based on our valuation of our social actions, which is based on our perception of whether society's response to our actions is painful, or pleasurable. Whether we do something for others, or for ourselves, we are doing it for ourselves, but my theory is that we require a social stimulus to transition for ourselves.
Possibly. With transition though, society is not (on the whole) accepting of it either as a concept or practice. It should be something we do not seek to do do, if society determines our self worth, and our self love. If society rewarded us for transitioning, with more love, than perhaps I could agree, but it doesn't. It more often than not reacts with confusion or negativity. People move toward pleasure and away from pain, but ecsaping pain is more imperative to the body and mind than seeking pleasure, and I think transition is to move away from personal pain more than it is to seek the prospect of pleasure, particularly if that pleasure is not guaranteed.
I'm of the belief, its "Why do we NEED to transition," more so than a, "Want to transition."
A "want," implies choice. This life, is NOT, a choice.
Even if I was the only person in the world, the inner peace through congruence of mind and body, transcends all else.
Speak to you as soon as I iron my blouse.
Huggs
Catherine
Hi:
I agree with Catherine. When I still thought I was uniquely 'alone' in my affliction and deeply wished otherwise, I knew I was dealing with a need - an uncompromising and and unyielding need. This was what caused so much discomfort, as I didn't want to be trans and my first month or so in therapy was all about being cured. Of course, my therapist helped me understand that this wasn't like my annual bought of spring hay fervor. I was crushed for a few weeks when I found I had a bio-psycho condition that was in-curable. There was symptomatic relief and causal diminution but no cure.
The rest . . . well, that's a whole long story and here I am today.
Rachel
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on December 16, 2015, 07:11:02 AM
But do trans people achieve that? Most of them I have interacted with know the path is long and difficult and in the end usually say things like "I don't regret it, because I am happier in myself". Which implies that social pleasure or love isn't necessarily there for them all of the time. Or that what they got wasn't necessarily what they thought they would get. I know some who live alone, because finding some of that social pleasure is much more difficult for them post transition. Reading and talking about this issue and the experiences of other trans people further along than I am, I too am aware that transition may not - will probably not - lead to more social pleasure/love. Why then am I still doing it? I know it is not to conform better, because to my thinking being trans and transitioning is harder than any other option. It will probably not make me a more social person, the damage is already done there. Interactions with people may likely be all the worse because I will be hiding a "secret" (for the rest of my life) and I don't enjoy hiding things. So will it really be a path to more social pleasure?
Possibly. With transition though, society is not (on the whole) accepting of it either as a concept or practice. It should be something we do not seek to do do, if society determines our self worth, and our self love. If society rewarded us for transitioning, with more love, than perhaps I could agree, but it doesn't. It more often than not reacts with confusion or negativity. People move toward pleasure and away from pain, but ecsaping pain is more imperative to the body and mind than seeking pleasure, and I think transition is to move away from personal pain more than it is to seek the prospect of pleasure, particularly if that pleasure is not guaranteed.
Again, correct me if I'm not being fair; your points are 1) since we may not experience more social pleasure directly from certain social approvals, as a result of transitioning, we are not transitioning for more social pleasure, and 2) since society is not accepting of transitioning, then if your theory were correct, we would be a reflection of this.
In response to the first point, we do not need to experience more social pleasure directly from certain social approvals, to experience greater aggregate pleasure based on our valuation of certain actions, which we established from interacting with society.
In response to the second point, I never said society creates who we are, but rather how we value who we are socially, and according to my theory, society is essential for us to realize who we are socially.
Also, in regards to the end of your post, I agree we are risk adverse, because the more we experience of X, the less value it has in relation to the aggregate of our experience of X. Adding 1 X, to 2 Xs, increases the aggregate by 1/3, but subtracting 1 X, from 2 Xs, decreases the aggregate by 1/2.
Let me see if I can help us reach a consensus.
1) Even though I can not see why we would seek to experience a greater ratio of our gender's characteristic hormone, unless we imagined what the experience would be like, by contrasting our experience with others, and I can not see why a social action would induce pleasure outside of society, I can not conclude that even if isolated from social factors, increasing the ratio of our gender's characteristic hormone would not bring pleasure in itself, but I think it is hardly worth stating that this experience would not be a complete definition of transitioning in the western world.
To put it another way, I agree with Rachel, that in society, gender dysphoria is bio-psycho, but I also agree with Tamika that gender dysphoria could exist as a different manifestation, outside of society, if it's latency was disturbed.
2) We transition for ourselves, because it is impossible to transition for anyone else. All actions are inherently selfish. (This point may bring up questions about morality, but I will save that discussion for another time, as it will take us on too distant of a tangent. To give you a brief summary though, empathy allows us to undertake unselfish actions, but to pursue empathy is still a selfish action, and when we empathize we are experiencing someone's pleasure to pain ratio, and attempts to alter that ratio are still selfish actions. In order to avoid nihilism, I have worked out an objective basis for morality, and a decent definition of how it would be acted upon.)
3) The desire to transition is not a choice. It is innate to us, because of something in our brain. We need to transition. (The reason I used "want" instead of "need" in my title, was because I wasn't discussing the biology, but rather the possible necessity of a stimulus. I didn't want to present my theory as essential. I can see now it was a meaningless distinction to make, and only distorted what I was trying to convey.)
Quote from: Catherine Sarah on December 16, 2015, 09:34:55 AM
I'm of the belief, its "Why do we NEED to transition," more so than a, "Want to transition."
A "want," implies choice. This life, is NOT, a choice.
I agree 100% with this. Transition does not feel like a choice to me, even if technically it is a step that requires consent, a choice to commit. The options are not to live as one wants to live or not, but more like to live in pain, or to attempt to move away from that pain, and since pain is almost unbearable by its nature, where is the real choice if you want quality of life?
If there is any need to get more love from society through interaction, it is far behind in the list the need to be rid of the body parts that cause constant plaguing sensations of guilt, shame, disgust, sadness and so on. Whether these feelings originate in society's lens or not, it isn't so much interaction with society that is the imperative, it is constantly having to interact with yourself, never being able to escape that body - that really makes me want to act. Transition is a "self-ish" act of course, because only your self can feel its pain or discomfort and only you can act to rectify it. I can only imagine telepathic beings to be capable of true unself-ishness, since everything we do can only be done through the filter of being a singularly feeling individual, with only a small inkling into the pain and discomfort others must truly be feeling, and one with a survival instinct and drive away from pain. The day we humans can really feel each other's pain will be the day we no longer operate on the imperatives of the self. Which will likely be never. Sympathy and empathy are still a drop in the bucket to what we can never know about another's reality.
I can't really fully comment as I'm nonbinary rather than entirely MTF, but for me an important part of the changes I've undergone was getting a balance of hormones that better match the needs of my brain than what my body was producing of its own accord. Also, realising that I've had some female brain development, meaning that I'm not really fully male, and that it's OK to do things that men wouldn't normally do, has been quite an important step too.
Quote from: autumn08 on December 14, 2015, 03:27:55 PM
Why do we want to transition?
A theory I have is that after we meet our bodily needs, everything we do is related to our desire to feel love. Thus, to answer my question, I tried to imagine myself in a world where I was the only human. In this situation I don't think I would have a concept of what it means to appear my gender, as there would be no one to contrast myself against. Thus, transitioning would not have any meaning to me.
Using this thought experiment and my theory, the answer to my question seems to be we want to transition in order express how our inner self contrasts with other individuals' inner selves, so that we can we loved for who we are. I've expressed this conclusion to one other transgender individual, and it resonated, but maybe I'm entirely off, so I would love to hear how you would answer this question.
There's actually a huge amount of philosophical and sociological theory and research out there that talks more or less about this exact thing. From my own research into genocide and hate crime for instance I've delved into the general consensus in that field about the functioning of group mentality in humans or any social creature - the desire to fit into a group can be found as the source of really all our behaviours. I suspect that is where your own intuitions were leading you in what you describe.
It's difficult to tell if you're separating the desire to transition from the acceptance of your identity. For me, the desire to transition was I suppose to eliminate not only the distance I felt from my own body - the inability to recognise that person in the mirror, the constant feeling of estrangement from myself, feeling that I live in an alien body - but also to eliminate the distance from other people - it was not until after transitioning that I was able to have normal interactions with people, prevented previously partly due to my own anxieties and partly due to the disconnection between their perception of who I am and my perception of who I am. So you could say that transitioning for me was to get rid of feeling alienated. That's kind of what you were saying, I think, but I'm not sure I quite understood your analogy.
It isn't that I want to, but that it is an aching need. I wish to stay sane and live out of my shell. I finally actually want to live. That means a lot, I think.
I'm transitioning because I'm sick of living as a man.* I've only lived that way for so long because I was convinced that my only alternative was to not live at all, and while I've seriously considered that alternative from time to time, so far I haven't taken it.
The idea of living as a woman seems attractive, too, though of course I don't really know what it will be like. (I've heard of a whole bunch of disadvantages that come with being a woman, too.) But I don't know that it would be enough if I were actually satisfied living as a man.
I could continue living as a man, I suppose. I would be just existing, though. When I tried the "starter drugs" -- skirts -- life started going from black-and-white to color. And each step I've taken on this "road to perdition" :) it's gotten better. I'm starting to look forward to things. Having started HRT 1.5 months ago, I'm now impatiently waiting for my face to look more feminine and for the "boob fairy" to come. Next comes full-time, and, and. There's actually a reason, beyond mere duty, for me to stay alive.
ETA:
* -- there are days when I actively hate having to be a man, and am positively jealous of the women I see. It feels like some kind of purgatory.
Because I am a girl, and want the physical to match that :P
Or to put it really simply :P
Transition for a transsexual is a life sentence
Non-transition for a transsexual is a death sentence!!
I've tried both ways and I'm still alive :-*
Missy xx
Quote from: Nancy on December 17, 2015, 03:43:13 AM
There's actually a huge amount of philosophical and sociological theory and research out there that talks more or less about this exact thing. From my own research into genocide and hate crime for instance I've delved into the general consensus in that field about the functioning of group mentality in humans or any social creature - the desire to fit into a group can be found as the source of really all our behaviours. I suspect that is where your own intuitions were leading you in what you describe.
It's difficult to tell if you're separating the desire to transition from the acceptance of your identity. For me, the desire to transition was I suppose to eliminate not only the distance I felt from my own body - the inability to recognise that person in the mirror, the constant feeling of estrangement from myself, feeling that I live in an alien body - but also to eliminate the distance from other people - it was not until after transitioning that I was able to have normal interactions with people, prevented previously partly due to my own anxieties and partly due to the disconnection between their perception of who I am and my perception of who I am. So you could say that transitioning for me was to get rid of feeling alienated. That's kind of what you were saying, I think, but I'm not sure I quite understood your analogy.
Thank you for responding!
I think you understand what I was trying to convey quite well. In response to, "It's difficult to tell if you're separating the desire to transition from the acceptance of your identity," my theory doesn't separate the desire to transition, from the acceptance of our identity, but postulates that the desire to transition, is contingent on our social identity.
Thank you everyone for responding! :)
Well hrm, then the question is what isn't contingent on our social identity? ;D
Quote from: Nancy on December 20, 2015, 03:59:21 AM
Well hrm, then the question is what isn't contingent on our social identity? ;D
To answer that, I think we first need to answer, "why do we reward ourselves with pleasure from some social actions?" I think based upon our innate self, and our perceived potential, we try to be the individual whose ratio of positive versus negative actions is most likely to survive in others. Therefore, we receive pleasure from actions directed towards our purpose.
To answer your question, what is not contingent upon our social identity, is everything not contingent on our purpose. You may be right though; everything an individual born in society does, may at least be indirectly aimed towards our purpose. As I said in a prior reply, I may be incorrect in separating corporeal needs, from social needs.