I came out to a close, accepting friend. He is a kind man, and my wife and I both cherish him. Cut to the chase, he started talking about coming to church and that might help "get rid of those feelings." I believe in God, I believe in His unconditional love, no matter how we identify. I don't know quite what to say to my friend. He doesn't get it, and I want to help him understand without alienating him. Thoughts? ???
Thank you,
Katie
Quote from: WaterGirl on December 18, 2015, 05:13:32 PM
I came out to a close, accepting friend. He is a kind man, and my wife and I both cherish him. Cut to the chase, he started talking about coming to church and that might help "get rid of those feelings." I believe in God, I believe in His unconditional love, no matter how we identify. I don't know quite what to say to my friend. He doesn't get it, and I want to help him understand without alienating him. Thoughts? ???
Thank you,
Katie
Unfortunately, certain Christian churches have been feeding their followers lies. They're told that we're sinners and that we've chosen this lifestyle.
I'd suggest two things.
1. Explain to him that transgender people are born that way - that all evidence points to the fact that our gender is wired into our brains. We face crushing dysphoria unless we address it, and no one has ever shown that any type of therapeutic or religious intervention can change our gender.
2. If that doesn't move him, you may have to put distance between you and him - nothing else you say will probably change his mind.
If he wants to understand, he will. If he doesn't want to understand, nothing you can do will make him understand. It is up to you to decide how valuable your friendship is under the circumstances.
However, friend or not, you need firm boundaries about this. Tell him firmly, "No, thank you. This is not something that can be prayed away." Tell him what you believe about God's undonditional love.
If he chooses to alienate himself from you for having boundaries, that is his choice, not yours.
If your friend will listen to reason, then you will be able to win him over. If he won't listen to reason, you either need to leave him out of your life or accept him with his flaws. The real question is how important is he to you. My parent took a long time to accept me but they were important enough to keep in my life. Unfortunately the transition always seems to have problems and this is one of them.
Quote from: suzifrommd on December 18, 2015, 05:44:14 PM
Explain to him that transgender people are born that way - that all evidence points to the fact that our gender is wired into our brains. We face crushing dysphoria unless we address it, and no one has ever shown that any type of therapeutic or religious intervention can change our gender.
Some people respond to this with "God doesn't make mistakes."
Ask them about the babies born with missing limbs, or eyesight, or holes in their heart... are these "not mistakes" too? Presumably if they are not mistakes then humans shouldn't operate to correct the problem.
You beautiful women help quell the waves of uncertainty and self doubt. Thank you. I pray that I may get inspiration and resolve from your strength and determination.
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Quote from: Ms Grace on December 18, 2015, 06:19:27 PM
Some people respond to this with "God doesn't make mistakes."
And if she does exist (no proof) she obviously created a bunch of transgender people. ;)
Those with the faith can speculate why. ;D
Quote from: WaterGirl on December 18, 2015, 06:32:21 PM
You beautiful women help quell the waves of uncertainty and self doubt. Thank you. I pray that I may get inspiration and resolve from your strength and determination.
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You will learn. We took the wisdom that was passed to us and added to it. This is what we teach other on the site. Some day not to far off you will be passing what you have learned on to somebody else. You will do fine but at the moment you are a bit overwhelmed by all the the new information you are learning from the site.
Water Girl,
Ask him to try to take some time to listen to you explain who you are inside and be willing to think outside the box. If he loves God enough and want to follow His example of unconditional love closely enough he will accept you as you are and love you just as much - even if he is not fully convinced (at least for now) that you cannot change what you are. Jesus loved everyone and was impatient with others for having a feeling of superiority over others who in their minds they considered to be the outcasts of society.
Sorry if this is trite, but you could quote Genesis22-23 (James Bible)
'And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man'
Which is a pretty clear statement that Eve was a trans sexual woman with XY chromosomes. Which raises the question of where did ciswomen come from?
Actually it wasn't a rib, Adam was both sexes til God took the female part out of Adam to make Eve. That's why intersex happens every so often.
Tell him you will be happy to go to a Methodist or Episcopalian church, both of which have clearly defined and articulated doctrinal positions of LGBT tolerance. If he belongs to any other church, tell him you will consider attending when that church decides to join the 21st Century.
When I was a teenager and battled with GD I told my parents about this problem I did not want to go too school and my mother met this one Christian friend of hers. She reckoned I have a deamon in me and this is what is causing my feelings. They later tried to perform an exorcism on me.
guess what I am still trans to this day :D :D
Carlymcx,
You may want to double check on Methodists. They have a very limited idea (according to the Human Rights Campaign) of GLBT inclusion. You could add United Church of Christ (UCC-Church I grew up in), Unitarian, 3 of 4 Quaker sects and maybe the 4th., Metropolitan church, and the two largest Jewish sects in USA,(Conservative and Reform). I may very well be leaving other inclusive churches out. Many of the mainline Protestants are reexamining their positions and this list will almost certainly grow. I think that this movement for reappraisal is a good sign that there is an underlying groundswell of support.
Quote from: Ms Grace on December 18, 2015, 06:19:27 PM
Some people respond to this with "God doesn't make mistakes."
I agree, "God doesn't make mistakes."
Being trans isn't a mistake. (Neither is being gay or lesbian, etc.)
Quote from: Cindy Stephens on December 19, 2015, 08:05:57 AM
You may want to double check on Methodists. They have a very limited idea (according to the Human Rights Campaign) of GLBT inclusion. You could add .... 3 of 4 Quaker sects and maybe the 4th.,...
I'm only aware of 3 main groupings (I wouldn't call them sects), at least in the US (and Canada?), generally known by which North American Quaker umbrella organization they belong to: FGC (Friends General Conference, considered the most liberal), EFA (Evangelical Friends Alliance, the most conservative), and FUM (Friends United Meeting, somewhere in between.)
The last I heard, FGC was completely LGBT+ friendly, EFA anything but, and FUM is at best uncomfortable with LGBT+ people -- their attitude seems to be don't-ask-don't-tell.
I think the Anglican Church in English-speaking countries is fairly open, too, for a mainline protestant church. My family was Episcopal ( = USA Anglican), though I haven't been for about 45 years, but I know they had (have?) a gay bishop, women priests, etc. The African Anglican churches are another story, though.
Quote from: Cindy on December 19, 2015, 12:36:05 AM
Sorry if this is trite, but you could quote Genesis22-23 (James Bible)
'And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man'
Which is a pretty clear statement that Eve was a trans sexual woman with XY chromosomes. Which raises the question of where did ciswomen come from?
OMG thank you for a hearty laugh. Nothing liking using their sources to raise questions and have fun too >:-)
Oh my. I know some "born again" Christians who independently used the "God doesn't make mistakes" line on me. Where do they learn that line because I've heard it from many sources?
As for being "Christian" some of them have the most closed minds I've ever met. So much for accepting the teachings of the Bible which often preached love, forgiveness and the acceptance of others.
Oh, I'm not a "mistake". I was made to be this way by my Creator. :-)
Love,
Clare
Hi:
Disclaimer: I'm completely "areligious" for a variety of reasons. It seems to work for some and others . . . ?
This will be an interesting time with your friend. About all I can say for sure is that devoutly held religious beliefs seem pretty impervious to any and all sound reasoning, probably because of the component of faith involved but I'm not sure. Show your friend kindness and love, and be sure they clearly know where you stand and what your boundaries are.
Keep us informed . . . it's an interesting subject and we care about you.
Take good care,
Rachel
Thank you ladies.
I'm sort of nervous, he's coming over for dinner tonight with me and my wife. I realize being trans has been a huge part of my life, I've always just compartmentalized it and ignored it beyond a fetish/"my secret thing." With that realization, I am ready to explain it more than ever. Heck, I even put up an avatar, sans face. (Need to learn how to do my makeup a bit better first!) I just don't want to get diarrhea of the mouth (which I am infamous for)
Thank you for the suggestions and kind words.
Katie
Whew. Dinner was relaxed, but I caught an awkward glance a couple of times. Which is not to be unexpected. We were chatting afterwards and he said, "Coming to church might help give you some clarity." And I agreed, "yes, it might. And I'm all for clarity. In fact, I'm thinking more clearly and honestly than I perhaps ever have." He looked..hopeful, like I might "be healed!" Then I continued with words of wisdom from Suzifromm, Dena, Ms Grace, and others. He looked like he wanted to crawl in a hole, not embarrassed but rather...ashamed because he was judging me? Idk. I just know he had a softening to his countenance when I mentioned hard wired this way...
DenaliBe thanks for a great summation of what I wanted to get across. I spake your words almost verbatim and he was sorta quiet.
Gave me and my wife a big hug at the end of the evening as usual. I guess he's not gonna burn me at the stake anytime soon lol.
We will see, I know this journey requires a thick skin, and I guess this is a good way to figure out how to approach the naysayers.
I am grateful to you all. :-*
Now to get my wife to talk about this big ole elephant in the room!
Quote from: Cindy Stephens on December 19, 2015, 08:05:57 AM
Carlymcx,
You may want to double check on Methodists. They have a very limited idea (according to the Human Rights Campaign) of GLBT inclusion. You could add United Church of Christ (UCC-Church I grew up in), Unitarian, 3 of 4 Quaker sects and maybe the 4th., Metropolitan church, and the two largest Jewish sects in USA,(Conservative and Reform). I may very well be leaving other inclusive churches out. Many of the mainline Protestants are reexamining their positions and this list will almost certainly grow. I think that this movement for reappraisal is a good sign that there is an underlying groundswell of support.
http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/what-is-the-denominations-position-on-homosexuality (http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/what-is-the-denominations-position-on-homosexuality)
http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/opposition-to-homophobia-and-heterosexism (http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/opposition-to-homophobia-and-heterosexism)
I was suggested the book, "Healing the inner self, Darkness into light," by Dr Stan Fish.
Has anyone heard of or read this book? Just the title sounds a little...reparative. From the brief search I did, it sounds as if he works on ridding people from other energies/spirits? Hmmm...
OMG! If this was possible my prayers would have done it long ago. It really is still amazing to me how many of us are out there that have a strong faith that conflicts with our need to be a different gender. I too struggled with this same issue until i was introduced to a scripture passage in Matthew. I am convinced that if God cared about our gender he would have said so. However he does mention in Matthew the following.
11 Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.
12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.
The one who can accept this should accept it."
These verses were shared by a good christian trans-woman and they spoke to me. That first line that says "Not everyone can accept these word" - Not everyone is going to understand what i am saying... This is Jesus saying that Only those that I am speaking to will understand. You could be born this way. You could be made by men or you can make yourself into this. If this is you... than accept it.
I don't know about you, but when i read this scripture and understood the context of it, it made so much sense to me. It was like the still, small voice was saying... "I understand you and i am good with it." For so long i thought it was nothing more than the devil attacking me. Making me feel like i was a terrible christian because of what i thought at the time were vices. He just was constantly tempting me and i was failing each time.
Not everyone is going to understand us. It's important to realize that a true christian will love us despite what their personal convictions are. Too many christian focus on their version of Christianity and not God's.
John 13:34-35(KJV)
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Quote from: WaterGirl on December 19, 2015, 10:28:58 PM
Whew. Dinner was relaxed, but I caught an awkward glance a couple of times. Which is not to be unexpected. We were chatting afterwards and he said, "Coming to church might help give you some clarity." And I agreed, "yes, it might. And I'm all for clarity. In fact, I'm thinking more clearly and honestly than I perhaps ever have." He looked..hopeful, like I might "be healed!" Then I continued with words of wisdom from Suzifromm, Dena, Ms Grace, and others. He looked like he wanted to crawl in a hole, not embarrassed but rather...ashamed because he was judging me? Idk. I just know he had a softening to his countenance when I mentioned hard wired this way...
DenaliBe thanks for a great summation of what I wanted to get across. I spake your words almost verbatim and he was sorta quiet.
Gave me and my wife a big hug at the end of the evening as usual. I guess he's not gonna burn me at the stake anytime soon lol.
We will see, I know this journey requires a thick skin, and I guess this is a good way to figure out how to approach the naysayers.
I am grateful to you all. :-*
Now to get my wife to talk about this big ole elephant in the room!
Watergirl - your post made my day!! I am sooo happy that things went well and I could offer just a little bit of help for you to figure out what to say. I think many of us in the LGBT realm are turned off from Christianity by all of the hypocrisy of Christians (believe me I understand why!) and can't look past this to the wonderful message of love and grace from our Lord. I truly hope and pray your friend will be able to understand you more over time and reflect that unconditional love modeled for us by Jesus in His life.
Love,
Denali
Denali
It was a start. Mind you I was presenting as my usual m self, I reckon if and when I come out and present f to him it might be a goodly bit more awkward.
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I'm glad it went well. One thing I would like any Christian to explain to me is why they think you can pray it away when many of us have already tried that to no avail. I prayed for a cure for 40 years. No answer. It finally led me to dump that whole belief system. Either their God is a powerless myth or he hates me so further prayer and supplication is a big waste of time.
They assume up front that we are trans because we reject their God. Nothing could be further from the truth. They need to wake up and expand their vision to include the real world of real people.
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Deborah, I really understand where you are coming from. I still am a Christian but I'm very frustrated that it is so hard for so many that call themselves Christians can't see pass their preconceptions (and if they really followed the example of Jesus they would not have such biased and condemning spirits).
Quote from: Deborah on December 20, 2015, 12:33:26 PM
I'm glad it went well. One thing I would like any Christian to explain to me is why they think you can pray it away when many of us have already tried that to no avail. I prayed for a cure for 40 years. No answer. It finally led me to dump that whole belief system. Either their God is a powerless myth or he hates me so further prayer and supplication is a big waste of time.
They assume up front that we are trans because we reject their God. Nothing could be further from the truth. They need to wake up and expand their vision to include the real world of real people.
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I tried to pray it away for about 50 years before leaving that alone. I haven't lost the faith though since I've been outed by my church around 1977. I still believe in Jesus.
Joelene
Quote from: Joelene9 on December 20, 2015, 03:48:40 PM
I still believe in Jesus.
I still do too although my beliefs would be called heretical. But I refuse to be called Christian. They own that appellation and all that goes with it.
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Well... He came over again this afternoon to watch the Broncos...definitely reserved and overly polite.
Avoided any mention of "it," but that's ok. I know it's a big deal for me and my wife, but I'm cool with it not being THE topic. As I know so often happens once the news is out :)
Methinks I overthink things sometimes, perhaps?
Thanks again, I'm interested to see how this plays out!
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Hi WaterGirl,
I was brought up a devout Christian and have struggled with this question.
For me it comes down to this. If you spend all your life trying to bring good into the world, and walk in the same steps as Christ, and you're also transgender - will you be accepted into heaven? If you share half of what you have with a stranger in need and help others though there's nothing in it for you, and you're also transgender, what will come at judgement day?
The answer is, in Christian terms, that is entirely up to the Creator. Not you're friend, and there are also passages about casting the first stone. Has he looked in all the corners of his own house? I think the truth is every person has some vice, none of us are perfect, and your friend would be better serving Christ if he were to love you and not judge you, and instead worry about himself.
There is a lot of talk about transgender from several people in the Bible, however whenever Jesus speaks - especially in John as above - it's about not judging others; and accepting yourself and others as we are.
The other thing that I would like to add is that - unfortunately for your friend - it is not your job to fix his point of view. It is your job to know your own self and find and follow your own path, having faith it will all work out somehow.
Often for me this has meant spending less time with people who suck my energy, and more time with those who amplify it. At least while I'm trying to understand "who I am".
At least that's what I think.
xox
Samantha
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Quote from: SamKelley on December 21, 2015, 04:23:04 AM
Hi WaterGirl,
I was brought up a devout Christian and have struggled with this question.
For me it comes down to this. If you spend all your life trying to bring good into the world, and walk in the same steps as Christ, and you're also transgender - will you be accepted into heaven? If you share half of what you have with a stranger in need and help others though there's nothing in it for you, and you're also transgender, what will come at judgement day?
The answer is, in Christian terms, that is entirely up to the Creator. Not you're friend, and there are also passages about casting the first stone. Has he looked in all the corners of his own house? I think the truth is every person has some vice, none of us are perfect, and your friend would be better serving Christ if he were to love you and not judge you, and instead worry about himself.
There is a lot of talk about transgender from several people in the Bible, however whenever Jesus speaks - especially in John as above - it's about not judging others; and accepting yourself and others as we are.
The other thing that I would like to add is that - unfortunately for your friend - it is not your job to fix his point of view. It is your job to know your own self and find and follow your own path, having faith it will all work out somehow.
Often for me this has meant spending less time with people who suck my energy, and more time with those who amplify it. At least while I'm trying to understand "who I am".
At least that's what I think.
xox
Samantha
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Samantha,
Thank you for the advice. I am repeatedly gratified by the wonderful support here.
I've always been aware of the hypocrisy of many "religious" people, and since I came out (to myself, too, if that makes any sense) it has become even more apparent. I wish more people would remember the fundamental message is love, not judgement.
I need to remember your words about my job being to know myself, not fix my friend's view.
Hugs,
Katie
Quote from: AmandaDanielle on December 20, 2015, 11:04:44 AM
OMG! If this was possible my prayers would have done it long ago. It really is still amazing to me how many of us are out there that have a strong faith that conflicts with our need to be a different gender. I too struggled with this same issue until i was introduced to a scripture passage in Matthew. I am convinced that if God cared about our gender he would have said so. However he does mention in Matthew the following.
11 Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.
12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.
The one who can accept this should accept it."
These verses were shared by a good christian trans-woman and they spoke to me. That first line that says "Not everyone can accept these word" - Not everyone is going to understand what i am saying... This is Jesus saying that Only those that I am speaking to will understand. You could be born this way. You could be made by men or you can make yourself into this. If this is you... than accept it.
I don't know about you, but when i read this scripture and understood the context of it, it made so much sense to me. It was like the still, small voice was saying... "I understand you and i am good with it." For so long i thought it was nothing more than the devil attacking me. Making me feel like i was a terrible christian because of what i thought at the time were vices. He just was constantly tempting me and i was failing each time.
Not everyone is going to understand us. It's important to realize that a true christian will love us despite what their personal convictions are. Too many christian focus on their version of Christianity and not God's.
John 13:34-35(KJV)
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
I love this. Thank you for sharing! I really needed to hear that, because I too am a Christian and have a hard time meshing it all together.
A good friend I came out to accepts me, and says that God made me as He did... so of course He accepts me.
Quote from: Deborah on December 20, 2015, 12:33:26 PM
I'm glad it went well. One thing I would like any Christian to explain to me is why they think you can pray it away when many of us have already tried that to no avail. I prayed for a cure for 40 years. No answer. It finally led me to dump that whole belief system. Either their God is a powerless myth or he hates me so further prayer and supplication is a big waste of time.
They assume up front that we are trans because we reject their God. Nothing could be further from the truth. They need to wake up and expand their vision to include the real world of real people.
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Deborah, I can relate! I too have prayed to be "normal" to no avail. I wonder if our prayers are not answered to fix us, because there is nothing "wrong" with us. I suspect we take on the self-loathing because of man, not because of God.
Quote from: Tommi on December 21, 2015, 01:51:10 PMDeborah, I can relate! I too have prayed to be "normal" to no avail. I wonder if our prayers are not answered to fix us, because there is nothing "wrong" with us. I suspect we take on the self-loathing because of man, not because of God.
I'm pretty sure it is man. I have to believe God is more concerned with our hearts and how we treat each other than the other stuff. I did say I dumped Christianity, which is true, but my belief in God remains. (Despite my best efforts to get rid of that too. LOL)
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Quote from: Deborah on December 20, 2015, 12:33:26 PM
One thing I would like any Christian to explain to me is why they think you can pray it away when many of us have already tried that to no avail. I prayed for a cure for 40 years. No answer. It finally led me to dump that whole belief system. Either their God is a powerless myth or he hates me so further prayer and supplication is a big waste of time.
The Christians typically put the blame on the transgender person - they claim that the transgender person doesn't have enough faith or that they aren't praying hard enough or that they need to attend church more or that they need to seek God more - and then, ironically, they throw us out of the church. It's always a failure on the transgender person's part.
They can't accept that maybe they are the ones with the skewed view of scripture and that being transgender is not a sin, and that their faith system doesn't operate on how hard people try.
The lack of empathy and understanding and the judging of people is the real problem. It's no wonder that people are walking away from the church after getting that kind of help.
Quote from: Joelene9 on December 20, 2015, 03:48:40 PM
I tried to pray it away for about 50 years before leaving that alone. I haven't lost the faith though since I've been outed by my church around 1977. I still believe in Jesus.
Joelene
Joelene I agree with both you and Deborah. The God I see in the Bible is not reflected in the way you have been treated by church members. God is agape love*. The church has lost some great people when they lost the both of you. The God I know will not think the less of people that don't fit into an arbitrary mode that others make for you,
* Love so deep and limitless that it leaves you in a state of wonder or amazement, as with the mouth wide open. ... Love as revealed in Jesus, seen as spiritual and selfless and a model for humanity.
Christianity to me is beautiful. Its traditions (mainly), its story and the lesson of Christ awesome. I profess the faith and attend a liberal church. Christians on the other hand, they are a very mixed bag as the famous Gandhi quote goes.
There are zero incompatibilities with anyone's transition and the faith. Anyone who tells you otherwise is simply exercising their faith as sport, and incorrectly at that. It is easy to say look, i'm going to take this book and say it is 100% literally accurate and everything we need to know about anything " and " i also attend this group i call a church with lots of people who believe this just like me " and now i want you to be just like us. That isn't faith it is a cult.
How strange that all sounds when you look at it like this.
Though im not religious or a believer myself im pretty sure there is no passage in the bible that is even about being transgender. If there is s god of some kind im pretty sure he wouldnt condem someone for simply being themselves. In fact i would say that this god would simply want people to be kind, good and accepting of people for who they are.
Quote from: Shannon morgan on December 21, 2015, 06:35:57 PM
Though im not religious or a believer myself im pretty sure there is no passage in the bible that is even about being transgender.
No, but there are Eunuchs mention in both the Hebrew and Christian bibles. They didn't have GRS in those days, nor did they have the language to describe a transgender woman, but eunuchs were as close to trans women as they came. They were males assigned at birth who had given up their masculinity.
From Isaiah 56:4-5,
QuoteFor thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
"...name better than of sons and daughters..." Could be interpreted as a biblical justification for choosing a new name that matches our gender, no?
From Matthew 19:12, reported to be the words of Jesus:
QuoteFor there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."
Sounds like Jesus didn't have a problem with us either.
If praying the trans away worked, then most of us would be ex-transgender. How many ex-transgender people are there?
Honestly, avoiding the religious guilt is one of the reasons I'm glad the atheism caught on in my brain before I wised up to the trans facts. I used to tie myself in knots over sex and masturbation, and how God felt about it. Now I'm just concerned with what I think... lot less crowded in my brain.
Not to say there's anything with trying to reconcile your faith and your gender identity... just that it's a burden I'm glad to be without.
Actually Gallae were as close to trans women as there were. Although there were none in Jerusalem there were plenty in Rome. Whether St. Paul was condemning them or not is a matter for debate although St. Augustine did later call them out specifically with some pretty horrible language.
Honestly, I've studied the Bible a lot and I remain unconvinced by the eunuch argument. Eunuchs were pretty common and had nothing to do with trans in that historical context, place and time.
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Get this:
And I quote:
"...since that time I have worked with many people who were struggling with homosexuality, but could not seem to do anything about it.
One man came to me, he was married with children...upon checking him I found there were five female spirits within him. They were sent away and he left.The next morning he called. "It's like flipping a switch. Suddenly men lost their appeal. I never realized women were so beautiful."
I could go on, but that pretty much gives a summary.
From Healing the Inner Self, From Darkness to Light. By "Dr." Melvin Fish (excommunicated Mormon)
Although this reference is to sexual preference, I can't help but think the good "Doctor" would treat ->-bleeped-<-/gender dysphoria similarly. Reparative therapy, anyone?Sheesh.
The scary part is this book was foisted upon me by my therapist...
Katie
Ugh... that doesn't sound like a healthy book, and should be immediate grounds for a new therapist. The one you've got seems to be infested wit Pat Robertson spirits.
For what it's worth, I got involved in Evangelical Christianity around the same time I started having fantasies of being a girl. Worst timing ever; when I started getting afraid of where my sense of self was going, religion was right there to help me bury my emerging awareness of myself. If I'd stuck with it, I may well have transitioned when I was 18-20. Instead, I had to wait until I could break free of religion enough to realize that I'd been hiding from my feelings, which didn't happen until I was 28 just this year.
And I still have a paralyzing fear of being wrong, a lack of trust in my own judgment, and a psychological need to have everything unusual I do approved my some authority figure because of what I went through. Even though religion can help repress certain unwanted feelings, it can also do a lot of damage in the process and eventually they'll come back anyway.
That's not to say that all religion is negative, though. I still remain a Christian despite what I went through. I just remind myself that the church as it is today clearly isn't what Jesus intended to create and He clearly wouldn't judge us in the way that His so-called followers do. Actually, in figuring out who I am, I have been praying for guidance regularly as well.
The power of suggestion is real to those prone to superstition. The question is was that man's cure permanent? I'll bet not.
I cured myself through prayer a whole bunch of times. None of those cures lasted longer than three days.
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I'm thinking so too. It's too bad because she has been helpful, maybe just because she's been an ear to tell my story. Then she gives me this book...
There isn't a gender therapist within 250 miles :/
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Deborah,
No, he kept coming back to have more spirits released...
Mmmmkay youuu betcha
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As Denali said (and I paraphrase):
It's sad some choose to believe force fed misconceptions rather than just accept Gods unconditional love.
Katie
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God works through his people and there is often no love at all. So . . .
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Hi to All:
This is an interesting thread . . . Personally, I've been all over the map with religion, except for blind faith replacing critical thinking. I'm fine that many people have a need for and receive some personal satisfaction from religion, that's all and good. Further, I'm not one that is so inclined and don't make or seek any special consideration therein as a result. Now, if those of a religious bent could be so kind in return, then the world be a much more loving place.
It's mostly downhill from here with me and religion, though I'm not nasty or abusive about my general inclinations towards religion. I'm definitely from the critical thinking school of humanity and willing admit that what I don't know that I don't know is infinitely larger than my knowledge and/or intellect.
Take care all and I enjoy the conversation,
Rachel
Quote from: Deborah on December 22, 2015, 06:08:37 PM
God works through his people and there is often no love at all. So . . .
Well, I'd say if there is no love at all they aren't really God's people (they seem to have purchased their fire insurance long ago and then just checked out from their responsibility to try their best to becoming the loving people God wants us to be); but it's not my place to judge I suppose. And if you are more or less excommunicated then it's so sad, because the church is losing some of its most precious and devoted members, in my humble opinion. Honestly, I see a bunch of loving and caring people on this forum that more reflect the example of Jesus in their lives than the average church-goer. I think it's interesting how so many of us have been almost forced to re-evaluate our faith and have taken different paths in terms of atheism, agnosticism, or searching for and hopefully finding what the true core of our faith. I respect you all.
Love,
Denali
Like Jesus/Heysus said if you love me keep my fathers commandments, that's the 10 commandments that Yehuah spoke at sini,first 4 is how too love god, the last 6 has too do with loving one another.. I'm a rabbi and a Messianic preacher for Yehoshua did not come for a church but to break the covenant to reset the covenant for the 3rd time and bring in a new nation of israelites. I've studied the bible and church history for 30 yrs and when I seen the truth I stopped calling myself a sunworshipper/Christian, and started on a new path following the true savour of Israel.
Quote from: DenaliBe on December 23, 2015, 08:02:41 AM
Well, I'd say if there is no love at all they aren't really God's people (they seem to have purchased their fire insurance long ago and then just checked out from their responsibility to try their best to becoming the loving people God wants us to be); but it's not my place to judge I suppose. And if you are more or less excommunicated then it's so sad, because the church is losing some of its most precious and devoted members, in my humble opinion. Honestly, I see a bunch of loving and caring people on this forum that more reflect the example of Jesus in their lives than the average church-goer. I think it's interesting how so many of us have been almost forced to re-evaluate our faith and have taken different paths in terms of atheism, agnosticism, or searching for and hopefully finding what the true core of our faith. I respect you all.
Love,
Denali
Thanks for saying that. I may end up in the end back right where I started, in the Episcopal Church, before I got sidetracked into fundamentalist nutbaggery. I do miss the high church Eucharistic celebration.
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I appreciate this congenial conversation. I am a highly unorthodox Christian myself. I am uncomfortable using the appellation "Christian" since it has been largely misappropriated by so many that do not follow Christ. I, too, spent many years praying the curse, sin, fault, devil and a number of other sources of this form of humanness away.
In the most recent several years, I have come to the conclusion that the transgender state of the person I am is a fundamental aspect of the person within this body. I have sometimes wondered, if Jesus was walking among us as he did some two thousand years ago, would He, if I pleaded for healing in His presence, change my person-hood to match my body, or would He change my body to match my person-hood. Think about it. He did not tell the blind-so-born to be content to not see or make them not desire to be seeing. He healed their physical infirmity to be in accord with the person within.
I know this, that when God proceeds to judge (read as- adjust our understanding of how things truly were- tell it like it is) He will do it based on the inward man/woman and not on the outward genitalia. I also know that judgement will be be rooted in love, mercy, compassion and understanding.
Stephanie
Stephanie,
Beautiful. Thank you :)
Katie
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Quote from: Deborah on December 23, 2015, 10:57:34 AM
Thanks for saying that. I may end up in the end back right where I started, in the Episcopal Church, before I got sidetracked into fundamentalist nutbaggery. I do miss the high church Eucharistic celebration.
Thanks Deborah. Sometimes we just have to look pass the nonsense from other fallible beings in the church (remembering of course that we have our faults too!) and enjoy Beauty where we can. I love the really old music of the church - I had a deeply spiritual experience once at a Westminster Abbey Eucharist service with the singing of beautiful 1000 year old songs of worship. I also love heading to remote places to experience God in the raw beauty of Nature.
Stephanie - I love the way you put things, thanks for sharing.
Quote from: WaterGirl on December 18, 2015, 05:13:32 PM
I came out to a close, accepting friend. He is a kind man, and my wife and I both cherish him. Cut to the chase, he started talking about coming to church and that might help "get rid of those feelings." I believe in God, I believe in His unconditional love, no matter how we identify. I don't know quite what to say to my friend. He doesn't get it, and I want to help him understand without alienating him. Thoughts? ???
Thank you,
Katie
Ugh ugh ugh ugh. This is how my church treated me and esp my 'mens bible study group'. I don't feel like there's much you can do to make them understand....except be who you are, transition, and live life and be happy.
Some of the haters have cheered me on after realizing how different and happy I was after and some have continued to say 'it's a sin' and blah blah blah. (including my parents).
There will always be those that do not want to 'get it'.
That being said, this site helped me some originally: http://www.transchristians.org/
Quote from: WaterGirl on December 21, 2015, 10:21:13 AM
Samantha,
Thank you for the advice. I am repeatedly gratified by the wonderful support here.
I've always been aware of the hypocrisy of many "religious" people, and since I came out (to myself, too, if that makes any sense) it has become even more apparent. I wish more people would remember the fundamental message is love, not judgement.
I need to remember your words about my job being to know myself, not fix my friend's view.
Hugs,
Katie
I just want to say something which has helped me a great deal. Dr Scott Peck wrote a book in 1978 called
The Road Less Travelled. For me it's helped me sort out once and for all the difference between
my issues, and
someone else's issues - one of the most difficult and ongoing existential challenges for some. I feel almost silly saying it, but the other thing that's helped me with this (and is continuing to help) is working at it with my psychologist.
PS, I love the name Katie :)
Quote from: WaterGirl on December 22, 2015, 05:47:30 PM
I'm thinking so too. It's too bad because she has been helpful, maybe just because she's been an ear to tell my story. Then she gives me this book...
There isn't a gender therapist within 250 miles :/
Therapy is important and usually helpful in sorting out issues. But honestly, not having any therapy is better than therapy that's actually harmful. I think you need to confront your therapist about this and find out where she's coming from. If she really believes your gender issues are the result of spirit or demon possession, you need to get out of there right away. Seriously, that's crazy talk. Listening to her and letting her views get inside your head can do a lot of damage.
There may not be experienced gender therapists close by. But I have no doubt that there are therapists available in your area who are honest and committed to the well-being of their patients, even though they may not yet be experienced in gender identity issues. You might be lucky enough to find a therapist who is willing to expand her own knowledge in this area. (Good therapists learn and grow and develop in their thinking, just like we all do!) Why don't you call around and see?
Quote from: sterusjon on December 23, 2015, 11:52:24 AMI have sometimes wondered, if Jesus was walking among us as he did some two thousand years ago, would He, if I pleaded for healing in His presence, change my person-hood to match my body, or would He change my body to match my person-hood. Think about it. He did not tell the blind-so-born to be content to not see or make them not desire to be seeing. He healed their physical infirmity to be in accord with the person within.
Woah.. That one's going to keep me thinking for days!
QuoteI have sometimes wondered, if Jesus was walking among us as he did some two thousand years ago, would He, if I pleaded for healing in His presence, change my person-hood to match my body, or would He change my body to match my person-hood. Think about it. He did not tell the blind-so-born to be content to not see or make them not desire to be seeing. He healed their physical infirmity to be in accord with the person within.
Quote from: SamKelley on December 29, 2015, 06:40:09 PM
Woah.. That one's going to keep me thinking for days!
Yes I really think this is very insightful too. I've been trying to prod my loved ones to think outside the box they have been constricted in for so long too. I myself didn't have a clue about the nature of transness until I recently started to understand myself more - the fog of repression has started to lift.
One of the most interesting things I learned recently was that the binary idea of two biologically distinct sexes is a recent idea, that came on with the development of science and the field of biology. Before that, as in medieval times, the distinction between men and women wasn't strictly biological, but more spiritual and based on religious ideas.
Back then the word "men" and "man" referred to all people in general, and all people were apparently considered to be much the same but different on spiritual levels. Unfortunately just like today where people discriminate against men or women based on their biology and whether or not they think they are superior or inferior based on biology, back then they were discriminated against based on the ideas of who was spiritually inferior or superior. In the Christian era men were considered spiritually superior and women inferior as if they were less capable of reaching the same level of enlightenment and so on which is likely why "holy men" were usually men. In the long distant past or in some polytheistic religions perhaps the reverse was more true since there are a lot of relics of worship referring to women and their ability to create/nurture life inside and outside of their own bodies, which men cannot do.
Learning that the idea of what men and women "are" that we use these days is based on ideas from biology was kind of a wake-up call to me, because I'd been using those ideas to decide things too. We do hear justifications these days for men being better at this or that or women better than men for this or that and it's always based on their biology as the excuse. But those excuses have changed over time and they aren't really "proof" of anything. It's odd to hear how religious people are now using scientific ideas to define trans people and discriminate against them when many holy texts do not even have a clear definition of what a trans person is to even discriminate against them. On a spiritual level a trans person isn't a sinner or a transgressor just for being trans at all. Yet modern ideas have been twisted or usurped to justify some feeling that trans people are incorrect, unnatural and misguided. Interestingly there's examples of greater acceptance and acknowledgement of the trans phenomenon in more ancient cultures than today's "enlightened" or advanced ones.
As a former biologist I have a lot of respect for the sciences, but as a trans person I can see how scientific definitions about gender are simply not adequate and have been used to make a lot of people miserable, even by religious people who do not necessarily take a lot home from scientific study. But they have taken home the ideas about men and women's BASIC biological gender differences, and very little awareness seems to have been raised about how gender is very much a spectrum in nature and is decided by much more than XX and XY.
It's why I'm baffled that the church even has a stance on trans people - very little about it is even mentioned in the Bible. Do they have a stance on people born with intersex biology? Surely assigning a gender for a person with both male and female characteristics should be as religious taboo as a trans person changing their apparent gender if "changing what one is born with" is the unnatural thing to do.
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on December 31, 2015, 08:26:56 AM
Interestingly there's examples of greater acceptance and acknowledgement of the trans phenomenon in more ancient cultures than today's "enlightened" or advanced ones.
Yes, in Ancient Rome there was a whole religion built around it centered on the Goddess Cybele. Trans women surgically altered themselves in a public ceremony and then served as priestesses. Unfortunately, it and all the other religious expressions were eliminated by the Church in the late fourth century.
When Christians start babbling about this being a new cultural phenomenon I just sigh at their self induced ignorance.
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