Can't remember if I posted this situation on here at some point before or not. My workplace is now forcing its employees to wear vests as part of the dress code. I can comply with 99 percent of the dress code. The vest is something that I cannot wear. It violates my gender identity and femininity. As far as I am concerned any and all vests are too masculine. To me it's wrong to force a woman to wear men's clothing. The moment I wear that vest I will cease to be a woman. Other women don't object to the vest but I have to. They've been conditioned to accept it and to allow they're femininity to be taken from them. I cannot allow mine to be destroyed. The vest is not a new thing. I had this issue a year ago.
I brought my therapist in on it and he wrote a letter to the general manager and Human Resources. After receiving the letter and talking with HR and me filling out an accommodation request I was not forced to wear the vest. However, last night at work the overnight managers told us of the forcing of the vest. I went to HR this morning. She suggested I wear the vest because it doesn't violate the other women's gender. HR doesn't understand where I'm coming from but will talk to general manager. I will have my therapist write a new letter and I will go back to the MN Department of Human Rights and have them re-open the case I started a year ago. I had them cancel the injunction because Walmart gave me an accommodation and stopped pressuring me to wear it. I've been there two years.
Now they are back at it again and they are trying to say that the accommodation isn't reasonable. I think it is. If it violates who you are as a person you should have some recourse. It might help for you to know that I was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome at the age of 17 and now I'm 32 soon to be 33. We Aspies as we call ourselves have a very high level of integrity. We often have a rigid sense of right and wrong and of justice. This is known as black and white thinking. We cannot violate our principles or who we are.
I am a model employee, hardworking, fast stockperson, took all the other changes with a grain of salt but this is one I can't do. The moment I put on the vest I am no longer a woman. If forced to wear the vest I will become suicidal. I put this in the original accommodation request. I am just trying to save my life by removing the stressor that is causing me to be suicidal. I haven't been that way in a year but now they are trying to take away my femininity and my gender identity again. A friend of mine suggested that I inform the newspapers and media about this attack on my gender at some point. For all of you that say "just wear the vest" that is just something that I cannot do. I will go down fighting this tooth and claw. Any advice would be welcome and thanks in advance.
Big hug! I admire your adherence to your own principles, but legally I think there are issues. It sounds like the vest in this case would fit these definitions:
a garment worn on the upper part of the body for a particular purpose or activity.
a special piece of clothing that you wear on your upper body for protection or safety.
a sleeveless garment, often having buttons down the front, worn usually over a shirt or blouse and sometimes as part of a three-piece suit.
Probably not what you want to hear, I know. :(
Hugs, Devlyn
Pick your battles, I say. It's a vest. As long as all the other women have to, I fail to see a big deal.
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Women wear vests all the time.
Do you object to women in pants?
I understand your concern even though I don't share it. They are unbelievably accepting of us as a corporation. I also work at Walmart and they have the most liberal dress code of any company I've ever seen. Any associate can wear any approved clothing, even skirts. The vest is the only good identifier they have for customers to recognize associates. Even the managers in my store have recently been required to wear them. That being said, I've seen associates in my store wearing Walmart logo polo shirts. Would they and you find that a reasonable accommodation?
I know that most people here are in the us, so the same may not apply here. But there are a few questions you can ask, and I presume it is a high visibility vest.
1) why do you have to wear them, if it is so you can easily be seen by vehicles for instance in a loading area, can in not just be worn in that area. In these circumstances, PPE is given out but most place in Europe can't enforce that you wear it, but if you do have an incident and fail to use, the company can not be help liable
2) why are you being told you have to wear it. Has some incident occurred or is it just managers being over zealous and just trying to avoid things happening?
I've also thought of something else. It is not particularly useful to fight for the support of gender specific clothing items. If we, as a society could rid ourselves of this concept, we would be free to wear whatever we want. Just something to think about. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
Would they allow you to make alterations to the vest? If you have it gathered at the waist it will look more feminine.
Quote from: Cute Ida on January 28, 2016, 09:51:04 AM
As far as I am concerned any and all vests are too masculine. To me it's wrong to force a woman to wear men's clothing. The moment I wear that vest I will cease to be a woman.
I wouldn't view this as forcing a "woman to wear men's clothing" but more like "forcing women and men to wear vests". Maybe it would help if you try to think of it that way, realizing you and your coworkers are all in the same boat, having to wear a vest I assume none of you want to wear.
I honestly never made the connection between vests and gender as I see both wear them all the time unlike ties or skirts. I get where you are coming from (I have my limits on what I would feel comfortable wearing, too) but, in this case, the rules seem to be applied equally. They should treat you as they should (a woman) and they seem to be treating you like a woman who works there.
I'm super curious though, has your therapist said anything like this or do they agree that it is wrong to ask this of you.
I wish you the best of luck finding a good comfort zone.
If the dress code applies to all women then you are going to lose this fight. All you are doing is making yourself visible to management as a trouble maker. It is within the company's rights to establish a dress code that applies equally to all.
The only way you have any possibility of winning this is if all the women objected as a group. Even then, since it is only a vest, I think your chances are slim.
Sapere Aude
If it's Walmart as she implied the dress code applies regardless of gender or level in the store. My store manager wears the vest, as do all of his co-managers, most of whom are women. The vest exists only to identify us as store associates to customers. It's a logoed tacky blue and I don't know anyone who's actually fond of it short of Sam Walton and he's dead.
Hmmm. In a civil rights sense, there are two federal laws that might be involved here, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act (which prohibits discrimination on the basis of gender or sex), and the Americans with Disabilities Act ("ADA," which prohibits discrimination against persons with disabilities and also requires an employer to make a reasonable accommodation to make it possible for a qualified employee with a disability to do the job).
Honestly, you can forget about Title VII here. Men and women aren't being treated any different. Moreover, none of the other women object to the vests. This isn't sex or gender discrimination.
ADA on the other hand might give you something to work with. In order to make the case work, you will have to establish that your gender issues constitute a "disability" within the meaning of the law. You may be able to get a therapist or psychiatrist to back you up on this with a diagnosis of some recognized medical condition. (Gender dysphoria? Gender Identity Disorder? Something like that.)
If you can show that wearing the vest triggers gender-related stress or anxiety that interferes with your ability to perform the duties of your position, ADA may require the employer to make a reasonable accommodation. You have to make request to the employer for a reasonable accommodation. (Sounds like you have already done this.)
What you would like is for the employer to excuse you from wearing the vest. But it's not that simple. The employer is not necessarily required to give you the accommodation that YOU prefer. ADA only requires the employer to make "a" reasonable accommodation. Often, the employer ends up with final say over what accommodation is reasonable.
Once you have requested reasonable accommodation, the employer is required to engage in an "interactive process" of discussion with you to determine whether you need an accommodation, and if so, what accommodation is appropriate.
Here's a thought. (Don't know whether this would be realistic in your case?) A large facility like a megastore might have enough of a receiving/back stockroom operation that it would be possible to reassign you to work entirely in the stockroom - without direct customer contact. In that case, the employer could excuse you from wearing the vest without compromising its own policy about uniform appearance of employees on on the sales floor. Would that work?
What I've written above is based on US federal law, which applies to people in all 50 states. You may also have similar protections (or even greater protections) under Minnesota law.
My workplace had removed our vests from the dress code standard and policy. The reasoning was that women in the workplace had used the vest as a rather slight buffer for any blouse that they were wearing in which would be out of any regulations.
I know kinda where you are coming from in the statement of a dress code standard issues, as I had issues with dress code myself, and after reading the code of conduct and associate handbook on things, and bringing up logical points, I was then able to go by the female standards rather than male standards. Most of if not all workplaces that have a vest considers the vests they place for uniformity consist of unisex styles in which would not classify any gender to the standards, but in any case they resemble more of a male figure when decidedly working with unisex uniforms.
In any case of adherence to dress code, if maybe you could invest into a more feminine style work vest (being something that looks similar to the uniform, but not from the official uniform) and claim it under the possibility to work with you as well as work with your company might be a possible solution.
Kate <3
Quote from: Abysha on January 28, 2016, 10:52:08 AM
I honestly never made the connection between vests and gender as I see both wear them all the time unlike ties or skirts. I get where you are coming from (I have my limits on what I would feel comfortable wearing, too) but, in this case, the rules seem to be applied equally. They should treat you as they should (a woman) and they seem to be treating you like a woman who works there.
I'm like Abysha. I have several vests I sometimes wear, and it never even occurred to me that they weren't women's clothing. I just went over to the Amazon website and searched for "vests" under women's clothing, and it returned 8,428 hits. Women's vests of every kind and description.
But that doesn't help Cute Ida. I may not share her view that vests are inappropriate clothing for a woman, but I don't doubt the sincerity or depth of her belief that they are inappropriate. This is where disability law might be useful. In many mental or emotional conditions, a person may have beliefs that aren't shared by others. But the law may still require an employer to accommodate the employee if the conditions are right.
Quote from: Katiepie on January 28, 2016, 12:28:34 PM
In any case of adherence to dress code, if maybe you could invest into a more feminine style work vest (being something that looks similar to the uniform, but not from the official uniform) and claim it under the possibility to work with you as well as work with your company might be a possible solution.
Good thinking, Katiepie! So here's a plan for Cute Ida: Go on over to the Amazon website and look through the women's vests. There are a ton of them, and I guarantee you that there are a lot of them that are feminine enough that no man would ever be caught dead wearing them. Pick out one you like and that is available in the same color the store uses. Tell management you will get the vest and put the company's logo on it. Then you'll be wearing a plainly feminine vest, in the company's colors, with the company's logo. You will have achieved the company's goal of marking you as an employee on the sales floor, but preserved your identity. Would that work?
A job is a job. Money is money. Equality is equality.
The women in the military dress just the same as men. And they are still very womanly.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthumbnails112.imagebam.com%2F30958%2F55e69e309576077.jpg&hash=59a97e8e572153b9bd3f76fce254a8a2d072b78d)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn03.cdn.justjaredjr.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fheadlines%2F2013%2F07%2Fkristen-stewart-army-training-camp-x-ray.jpg&hash=b94aef81099c53d831152b45da98cc971a90040d)
so if you were a cop would you tell the department to stick it even though it's was worn to save your life.
Quote from: Wild Flower on January 28, 2016, 08:27:57 PM
The women in the military dress just the same as men. And they are still very womanly.
The military isn't exactly the best example. Although the Utility uniform (less the maternity uniform) and PT uniform is the same, that's where the similarities end. Dress uniforms are totally different. Some head gear is totally different, and grooming standards are different so as to afford women the opportunity to look stunning in their dress uniforms. The military also offers variants on their standard uniforms to comply with religious beliefs.
Same thought as the others, it is just a vest which tend to be unisex by their nature. A woman or a man in a vest is just that. You will simply be another woman in a vest.
Quote from: Harley Quinn on January 29, 2016, 08:21:57 AM
The military isn't exactly the best example. Although the Utility uniform (less the maternity uniform) and PT uniform is the same, that's where the similarities end. Dress uniforms are totally different. Some head gear is totally different, and grooming standards are different so as to afford women the opportunity to look stunning in their dress uniforms. The military also offers variants on their standard uniforms to comply with religious beliefs.
You wear a dress uniform on average 1 out every 70-200 days. The combat/pt uniform is the average. Females in the civilian have way more liberties with hair/grooming than women in thr military.
A vest is not even in comparison.
Don't mind me, I just need to slip off and tell all the women I know that they are wearing mens clothes..
love pink
Quote from: Wild Flower on January 29, 2016, 05:35:27 PM
If youre not wearing this... Youre dressing like a man
Cute Ida came here to ask for advice on what to her is a legitimate concern of hers, the tone of this thread seems to be mocking her. This post in particular is extremely derisive.
I wont say 'I apologize', but really at least to me, if all the females are fine wearing a vest then it is a losing battle. She has no one on her side, and by continuing to not wear the uniform will 9 out 10 will result in either firing her, or leaving a bad impression in the peoples eyes... So theyll look for some something to fire her upon.
A picture with a dress will be harmless when the end result is no money for food. Im a survivalist. Money is scarce enough... When in Rome, do what the Romans do. Dont make yourself a black sheep in a losing battle.
If this was something horrid like females force to shave their hair for a job... Then go at it.
Pick your battles.
------
In my life, if anyone differs from the crowd and causing issues... The crowd is like a beast. They will just spit you out. Too many people need jobs.
No one is safe doing this.....
Look at Sinead O'connor... Top of her game back in the early 90s but ruin her career by tearing up a picture of the pope... No one on her side (in those days). Look at Madonna... She hurt her career with Erotica (1992) too much sexuality... It took her 6 years to recover, when she was at her peak.
Dixie Chicks.... Must I go on?
Quote from: Wild Flower on January 29, 2016, 07:10:20 PM
I wont say 'I apologize', but really at least to me, if all the females are fine wearing a vest then it is a losing battle. She has no one on her side, and by continuing to not wear the uniform will 9 out 10 will result in either firing her, or leaving a bad impression in the peoples eyes... So theyll look for some something to fire her upon.
A picture with a dress will be harmless when the end result is no money for food. Im a survivalist. Money is scarce enough... When in Rome, do what the Romans do. Dont make yourself a black sheep in a losing battle.
If this was something horrid like females force to shave their hair for a job... Then go at it.
Pick your battles.
------
In my life, if anyone differs from the crowd and causing issues... The crowd is like a beast. They will just spit you out. Too many people need jobs.
No one is safe doing this.....
Look at Sinead O'connor... Top of her game back in the early 90s but ruin her career by tearing up a picture of the pope... No one on her side (in those days). Look at Madonna... She hurt her career with Erotica (1992) too much sexuality... It took her 6 years to recover, when she was at her peak.
Dixie Chicks.... Must I go on?
Being blunt with advice is one thing, doing something to make fun of or ridicule someone for how they feel is another thing entirely.
Office max & Best Buy make everyone wear polos and khakis. I feel bad for the ladies there, but I've also heard them say they're less objectified on the job.
I think the underlying message is that uniforms generally suck, but without them employees sometimes take too many liberties with how they dress. As a general rule, companies implement and enforce uniforms as a way of cutting down the time they spend on policing employee attire.
I think the real challenge you're facing in all this is that you're creating more work for them inside of a policy specifically designed to reduce work.
I agree vests can be hideous, but I'm not sure I see a positive outcome for you.
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Quote from: Stevie on January 29, 2016, 10:15:00 PM
Being blunt with advice is one thing, doing something to make fun of or ridicule someone for how they feel is another thing entirely.
Youre right.
I look at my avatar... And it reminded me to not judge people. I apologize. People judge me, and it hurts. I dont think this forum needs that attitude. Because we all are here for a reason; help, platonic love, acceptance.
Quote from: Wild Flower on January 30, 2016, 01:54:11 PM
Youre right.
I look at my avatar... And it reminded me to not judge people. I apologize. People judge me, and it hurts. I dont think this forum needs that attitude. Because we all are here for a reason; help, platonic love, acceptance.
Hugs
I see nothing wrong with the vest or it's use. It's meant to do exactly as another member stated, and that's to distinguish you from customers; it's customer service oriented and not any sort of whimsical play on alienating you as a woman nor is it an attempt to somehow make you more masculine.
I've wore BDU's and ACU's; both take away any sense of individuality. I currently wear a safety vest, cut proof gauntlets, a hardhat, safety glasses, steel toed boots, and gloves; I wear all of it for my protection and will continue to wear it as whether or not I'm masculine or feminine means nothing in regards to PPE's purpose.
Do I sometimes get aggravated that I have to keep my hair in a pony tail? Yup. But that's about it. Adaptation is the means through which we survive; get 'er done.
I know a lot of women that wear vests. It's a cool look. It doesn't make them look any less feminine.
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Honestly this is one reason why some people are not cool with LGBT community because of the militant ones who get their panties bunched over a vest.
I'm not hating, I'm simply pointing out that it might be best to pick one's battles
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I think you need to move away from gender argument if you want to make any progress. It's a losing battle. Focus on how wearing the vest affects your disability. I still don't think you're going to win this one, but good luck.
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I don't understand why Walmart is getting their undies on a bundle over a vest. I live in the same state as the OP and I do shop at some of the Wallmarts around. I have never seen a store where everyone wears the same attire. That, I think is part of the problem.
Vests are typically for the male gender. That can cause problems. This is more about pushing someone around as opposed to a dress code.
THAT is a problem.
Jen
Quote from: WaterGirl on February 11, 2016, 11:48:12 AM
Honestly this is one reason why some people are not cool with LGBT community because of the militant ones who get their panties bunched over a vest.
I'm not hating, I'm simply pointing out that it might be best to pick one's battles
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You are misinterpreting the situation. Ida has an issue with the vest aggravating her dysphoria. The cut of the vest is very masculine and Ida like a lot of us has issues with looking masculine.
I have also noticed that some of the posters telling Ida to just suck it up are not even presenting as female at work so they have no real understanding of what she is dealing with.