I have not visited Susan's Place in about a decade and many things have changed, so I am pretty much a Newbie again to the website. As so, I probably see things on this board with a fresh prospective and/or be alarmed by what I and everyone else is reading, but have come to expect.
I am surprised at the relatively large number of posts on this board that almost in passing, speak about botched surgeries and am even more surprised at how little is being said about the topic and it really not being fully acknowledged on Susan's Place.
Years ago, there was very little mentioned about surgical disasters and a lack of willingness to hold doctors accountable. Have things really changed that much?
I don't know , I been here at Susan's for three years and haven't noticed that many, ofcoarse I usually stay in this section and maybe there are in the post op section.
What constitutes a botched surgery, Someone's expectations not being met or other?
Quote from: Hanouf on April 21, 2016, 09:13:57 PM
I have not visited Susan's Place in about a decade and many things have changed, so I am pretty much a Newbie again to the website. As so, I probably see things on this board with a fresh prospective and/or be alarmed by what I and everyone else is reading, but have come to expect.
I am surprised at the relatively large number of posts on this board that almost in passing, speak about botched surgeries and am even more surprised at how little is being said about the topic and it really not being fully acknowledged on Susan's Place.
Years ago, there was very little mentioned about surgical disasters and a lack of willingness to hold doctors accountable. Have things really changed that much?
Imo its human nature...
everybod hopes all goes well.
Please keep in mind that there are many satisfied customers who do not open threads about it.
Imo it should be discussed openly.
So people know about possible shortcomings, and if they can do a few things to support, like hiring a nurse for better recovery ...
of if they would prefer to look for people with other processes and better recovery facilities for example.
*hugs*
Hi Hanouf,
Well this year so far there has been my corrective surgery:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,199847.0.html
and Eveline's:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,188764.0.html
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,203897.0.html
There may be more we don't know about or I have missed here on forum.
Hugs
Paula
Here's another one I'm afraid - My Story - Not for those with a squeamish disposition:
Moderator Edit: Removed the link due to TOS #1. The pertinent line is as follows: QuoteMembers with a post rank of "family" or higher may post links to off site information provided that the information does not otherwise violate the Terms of Service. This is a privilege that will be revoked if abused.
Quote from: LanaL on May 17, 2016, 03:23:32 PM
Here's another one I'm afraid - My Story - Not for those with a squeamish disposition:
Moderator Edit due to TOS #1(please see above and below post).
Wow Lana thanks for sharing! Sorry you went through all of that =/
Quote from: LanaL on May 17, 2016, 03:23:32 PM
Here's another one I'm afraid - My Story - Not for those with a squeamish disposition:
Moderator Edit: Removed the link due to TOS #1. The pertinent line is as follows:
LanaL,
Welcome to the site.
I had to remove your link to your review due to Terms of Service #1. In it's entirety it reads:
Quote1. We do not allow the advertising of other websites or chats on Susan's Place, with the exception of the Susan's Place Transgender Web Directory which is listed on the main page of this site. This prohibition includes the chat, forums, and the wiki.
There are seven exceptions:
Links listed added by the chat staff to the Transgender Bot (TGBot) in our chat
Users on the chat may give other users links to their photographs and personal websites.
Links to the source of news stories posted In the News forum which is located under the News and Information section of the forum
Members with a post rank of "family" or higher may post links to off site information provided that the information does not otherwise violate the Terms of Service. This is a privilege that will be revoked if abused.
You may link to your personal website in your forum profile, and forum signature which is shown at the bottom of your forum posts.
Links to the event website for more information in the Calendar of events.
Site staff may at their discretion provide links to other websites, in order to provide informational resources to Susan's Place users, this is a privilege I feel that they have earned. If you are interested in this ability volunteer for the Chat, Forums, Links, or Wiki.
This is done for several reasons, the major one being spam prevention. It also helps us to ensure that the sites Susan's Place links are family friendly. To recommend sites for inclusion in the links area, simply find the category that the link best fits, and click the 'Add Link' text at the top of the page. You do not have to be the owner of the website to submit it for listing.
I know you have not received the links to these rules yet. So, just a note to let you know. Additionally, I would like to share some links that include welcoming information and those Terms of Service. If you have not read through them all, please take a moment to do so:
Things that you should read
Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html) | Standard Terms & Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html) | Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.) |
Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html) | News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html) | Photo, avatars, & signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866) |
Once again, welcome to Susan's. I hope you find what you are looking for here.
With warmth,
Joanna
It would be important to be allowed to publish medical errors and dissatisfaction of patients. FFS and other surgeries are a dream for us. Moreover, it is remarkable the participation of fake profiles . Medical teams have the ability to create profiles and publishing reports , as if they were patients.
Quote from: jhulyglow on May 19, 2016, 01:31:34 PM
It would be important to be allowed to publish medical errors and dissatisfaction of patients. FFS and other surgeries are a dream for us. Moreover , it is remarkable the participation of fake profiles propagandizing doctors and patients undergoing.
I agree. A respectfully written review is very helpful here. It should be posted here.
Sincerely,
Joanna
Quote from: Joanna50 on May 19, 2016, 01:35:23 PM
I agree. A respectfully written review is very helpful here. It should be posted here.
Sincerely,
Joanna
Sorry for the mistakes in writing. I am Brazilian and I'm learning English.
No problem. I encouraged LanaL, through a message, to post her review here. Just a little early to post a link.
:)
Joanna
Quote from: jhulyglow on May 19, 2016, 01:31:34 PM
It would be important to be allowed to publish medical errors and dissatisfaction of patients.
Also agree. ;)
Quote from: Joanna50 on May 19, 2016, 01:45:48 PM
No problem. I encouraged LanaL, through a message, to post her review here. Just a little early to post a link.
:)
Joanna
Cool, I hope she does!
Here is my honest review of my surgery with Dr Bart Van De Ven, as promulgated on Realself site (With pics) dated 2nd May 2016. Now 3 years post-op.
1st session Sept 2011
Procedures:
Forehead recontouring with orbital recontouring + Hairline correction + Browlift, Blepharoplasty lowerlid, Rhinoplasty (Nose reduction), Earlobe reduction, Lipfift, Trachea shave, MACS facelift, Lipo-filling face: cheeks, nasolabial folds, vermillion upper lip, mental fold.
Problems with surgery:
There was a two hour delay in the start of my operation. Supposedly, due to the anaesthetist not turning up. Patient care at whilst under general anaesthesia wasn't good. I had ulna nerve damage at the elbow of my left arm, due to it being badly positioned arm during the long surgery (Still have problems with it now) and a painful bruise at the bottom of my spine, probably caused when moving me from theatre to recovery. Whilst under anaesthetic, I had two extra procedures carried out on me that I was not aware Dr Bart was going to do. They certainly were not discussed preoperatively. They were, liposuction of my neck and stuffing my upper lip with skin left over from the forehead surgery I had. This is assault! The latter also resulted in two very visible scars on my neck (The other was for the trachea shave) instead of just one. Discharged from hospital to hotel 11am next day with excessive swelling and no facial compression bandage.
The good:
Bone work was good. Happy with forehead and nose.
The bad:
Soft tissue work was disappointing. Puckered scar line left lower bleph. Scars badly positioned under both eyes. Expanding scar right temple area near endotine. Resulting in infection (Controlled with antibiotic) this resulted in baldness right temple area. Large Haematoma around trachea shave making adams apple seem larger than it was before. The resulting internal scarring means adams apple is still quite prominent and it's not helped by the internal scarring caused by neck lipo-suction. Neck will have to be revised by an experience surgeon, once internal caring has softened, in a few years time. A MACS facelift is not a suitable procedure for people in their 50s. The vector is only upwards and leaves the neck saggy.
The ugly:
Adhesions left jaw line. Scarred/bald right temple area. Bleph scars, left one worse than right. Permanent uncomfortable, watery eyes. Ear lobes attached to side of face. Right side bad lazy stitching . Saggy neck.
2nd Session Oct 2012
Procedures:
Revision lipo-filling upper lip, Revision forehead (brows dropping) plus another extra procedure, chin-recontouring with a view to revision of MACS lift due to adhesions along left side jawline, when chin swelling recedes.
Problems with surgery:
None.
The good:
Chin work was a good decision.
The bad:
Permanent lump appeared on right side skin above top lip after lipo top-up to lip vermillion. Forehead nip n tuck didn't do anything, brows continue downwards.
The Ugly:
Not much changed as swelling disguised chin work.
3rd Session April 2013
Procedures:
MACS facelift revision, lip lift revision, Left eye scar revision (Laser resurfacing).
Problems with surgery.
Woke up from surgery with paresis to the right side of my face. My right eyebrow was collapsed and wouldn't move. My lips were not competent on the right making it difficult to speak (Labial sounds, Ems, Bees and Peas impossible) and I couldn't drink the water she offered me. I told the recovery nurse to record it in the "book". Dr Bart came in and ask me to smile, which I did. He seemed not to worry about my permanent wink, wonky pucker or inability to drink or talk properly. Three years since surgery I still have permanent nerve damage to my motor nerves affecting to submandular, buccal and temporal branches. When back in my hotel (Discharged next day at 11am again) I discovered that Dr Bart had also ruptured my parotid gland on the left side of my face filling my face with saliva and making it difficult to breath. I had to go back to the hospital on Monday (Op was on Thurs) have a vacuum drain bottle permanently fitted. I could see the bottle filling with saliva when I ate. I lost a fair bit of weight! This also meant I had to plan for a longer stay in Ghent adding £500 to my travel and accommodation expenses. The lip lift revision was lopsided and the scar under my right nostril is badly puckered. My right earlobe has "pixied" and both ear lobes have dog ears. I think this proves my previous analysis that with Dr Bart, it is a case of – Bone work good, soft tissue work bad. I have tried seeking a lawyer in the UK to sue Dr Bart for his inept workmanship. But they will not take a case to the Belgian courts as it is too expensive and difficult to do on a no win no fee basis. A lawyer, I spoke to, did actually win a successful case suing a Belgian surgeon in a Belgian court. But two years later, his client is still waiting for her compensation to be paid. Be warned, Dr Bart's bad work is protected by this fact also by the fact that transgender people are reticent about going public.
The Good:
I look like a female, from most angles.
The Bad:
I can't speak or eat properly which has badly affected my social life.
The Ugly:
Due to the number of obvious scars and lop-sidedness, I look operated on!
Just be aware, all of the surgeons (and their lawyers) are free to read this board, too.
Hugs, Devlyn
We need something like "Trip Advisor" for Trans surgeons. Where peole can leave comments, rate the surgeons and be verified as patients who really had the surgery to increase their credibility on the vote ;)
Quote from: anjaq on June 27, 2016, 10:10:52 AM
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 02, 2016, 03:05:39 PM
Just be aware, all of the surgeons (and their lawyers) are free to read this board, too.
I find it sad that apparently one has to be afraid of surgeons coming after patients who report about bad results. How is one going to form a proper opinion about which surgeon to choose for a good result and minimal risks, if people are afraid to speak about bad results or problems with surgeons.
I'm merely stating the obvious. If someone has an issue with a surgeon, it follows that there could be subsequent civil court actions. The first thing your lawyer will tell is not to talk about your case.....especially on social media. We have people requesting to have their comments removed from the surgery boards all the time. I just caution everyone to be aware that this board is open to the public. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
Indeed, a patient and surgeon should find remedy in court, not on a forum.
I think it would be best to deny/remove any unfair complaints about surgeons, because they quickly spiral out of control and can really damage a reputation. It's too easy to damage a reputation online. Douglas Ousterhout wrote in his book, that a smear campaign was being waged against him by other surgeons on the Internet. Thus, he warns about trusting things on the Internet. A surgeon who never makes a mistake, never operates. If you're that 1% that had complications, you're just unlucky. It's a risk, and with risk comes responsibility.
Quote from: Joanna50 on May 18, 2016, 11:08:02 AM
Quote from: LanaL on May 17, 2016, 03:23:32 PM
Here's another one I'm afraid - My Story - Not for those with a squeamish disposition:
Moderator Edit: Removed the link due to TOS #1. The pertinent line is as follows:
LanaL,
Welcome to the site.
I had to remove your link to your review due to Terms of Service #1. In it's entirety it reads:
Quote1. We do not allow the advertising of other websites or chats on Susan's Place, with the exception of the Susan's Place Transgender Web Directory which is listed on the main page of this site. This prohibition includes the chat, forums, and the wiki.
There are seven exceptions:
Links listed added by the chat staff to the Transgender Bot (TGBot) in our chat
Users on the chat may give other users links to their photographs and personal websites.
Links to the source of news stories posted In the News forum which is located under the News and Information section of the forum
Members with a post rank of "family" or higher may post links to off site information provided that the information does not otherwise violate the Terms of Service. This is a privilege that will be revoked if abused.
You may link to your personal website in your forum profile, and forum signature which is shown at the bottom of your forum posts.
Links to the event website for more information in the Calendar of events.
Site staff may at their discretion provide links to other websites, in order to provide informational resources to Susan's Place users, this is a privilege I feel that they have earned. If you are interested in this ability volunteer for the Chat, Forums, Links, or Wiki.
This is done for several reasons, the major one being spam prevention. It also helps us to ensure that the sites Susan's Place links are family friendly. To recommend sites for inclusion in the links area, simply find the category that the link best fits, and click the 'Add Link' text at the top of the page. You do not have to be the owner of the website to submit it for listing.
I know you have not received the links to these rules yet. So, just a note to let you know. Additionally, I would like to share some links that include welcoming information and those Terms of Service. If you have not read through them all, please take a moment to do so:
Things that you should read
Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html) | Standard Terms & Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html) | Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.) |
Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html) | News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html) | Photo, avatars, & signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866) |
Once again, welcome to Susan's. I hope you find what you are looking for here.
With warmth,
Joanna
Just a FYI if it is an internal link ie susans.org there is no restriction.
Quote from: jhulyglow on May 19, 2016, 01:31:34 PM
It would be important to be allowed to publish medical errors and dissatisfaction of patients. FFS and other surgeries are a dream for us. Moreover, it is remarkable the participation of fake profiles . Medical teams have the ability to create profiles and publishing reports , as if they were patients.
And that is the problem we face here, who is a disgruntled patient, and who is a fake profile created by the staff of a competing surgeon to bad mouth that surgeon. It is not like you send in a copy of your drivers license to register.
The courts are the place to handle botched surgeries, if the doctor won't make things right on their own.
Reading around in preparation for my FFS and this is a total :o thread. I mean, Lana, assuming that what you have posted here is accurate I hope you can pursue things. That doesn't help you now but it's awful to read what you have described.
I have had many procedures over many years and there is one constant to me.
No matter who you go to for any surgical procedure there an be complications. It's imperative to look for patterns of reckless and poor results. Then you go to someone else. You get one chance to get it right. Revisions are difficult and aren't always great. It's crucial to do your homework before choosing a surgeon. I'm still working on this myself.
Quote from: Ok2BHuman on October 08, 2016, 03:11:20 AM
I have had many procedures over many years and there is one constant to me.
No matter who you go to for any surgical procedure there an be complications. It's imperative to look for patterns of reckless and poor results. Then you go to someone else. You get one chance to get it right. Revisions are difficult and aren't always great. It's crucial to do your homework before choosing a surgeon. I'm still working on this myself.
too true. My GCS had its own complications. Friends of mine have had their own complications.
Seems like it's all about finding the surgeon with the least reviews of major complications.....
Quote from: Ok2BHuman on October 08, 2016, 03:11:20 AM
No matter who you go to for any surgical procedure there an be complications. It's imperative to look for patterns of reckless and poor results. Then you go to someone else. You get one chance to get it right. Revisions are difficult and aren't always great. It's crucial to do your homework before choosing a surgeon. I'm still working on this myself.
I agree with this, but would add that its also important that the surgeon is going to look after you if any problems do occur. The last thing you want is to find the surgeon doesn't want to help. Its one of the reasons I favor Suporn.
As the community grows my guess is we will see more botched surgeries but that does not mean they are rising, instead it's about people writing about these incidents.
Several months ago I was with a person that went through a botched surgery, see link below.
https://karenpayneblog.com/2016/08/15/bad-surgery-story/
For the most part I've not seen a whole lot of botched surgeries but instead successfully ones.
Quote from: karenpayneoregon on October 11, 2016, 04:58:13 AM
As the community grows my guess is we will see more botched surgeries but that does not mean they are rising, instead it's about people writing about these incidents.
Several months ago I was with a person that went through a botched surgery, see link below.
https://karenpayneblog.com/2016/08/15/bad-surgery-story/
For the most part I've not seen a whole lot of botched surgeries but instead successfully ones.
So, looks like that's Dr Daniel Dugi. He seems to be new to this and I've seen a number of people asking about him, probably because of new insurance overage. Bad luck to have a fistula already, but the rest of the care doesn't seem so good either.
The established surgeons have fistula's, but for the good ones its only one or two in thousands.
I agree in regards to all surgeons having something go off the reservation and as you said it's basically few and far between.
After seeing that Dugie has not many of these surgeries under his belt I was concern and seems the worst did happen.
Quote from: AnonyMs on October 11, 2016, 05:49:19 AM
So, looks like that's Dr Daniel Dugi. He seems to be new to this and I've seen a number of people asking about him, probably because of new insurance overage.
He went to Rice University for his undergrad education, which is a very good school. And his residency was in urology, which is one of the most competitive and highly paid M.D. specialties. And a fellowship in reconstructive urology too. Very impressive. He must be very smart and very driven.
Due to his background, I feel pretty confident that he'll get better as he continues to practice and does more reassignment surgeries. Since he's done so few up to this point, the chances of a mistake are much higher. Unfortunately, there isn't any formal training in SRS, so surgeons just have to learn as they go, so to speak. And it's the transgender people who can't afford the more experienced surgeons who end up being the ones who have to roll the dice... sad. :( But if we didn't have new surgeons learning how to do these surgeries, we'd eventually run out of them as they eventually retire.
You could kind of say the same thing about FFS. I guess it just goes to show that the transgender surgical field is still quite new. And therefore the risks that are inherent in any surgery are so much greater when it comes to the surgeries that we seek.
There are proven ways around such a dilemma of getting new surgeons - they need to be trained and work as a team with one of those surgeons who is really good. Not for a few surgeries but for a longer time. Its the only way one can avoid having guinea pig patients everytime a surgeon starts new in the field.
I would thus encourage everyone to choose a surgeon with a good reputation and experience and if finances are an issue , better save money for 3 or 5 years and upgrade to a surgeon that is less cheap but has experience.
Quote from: anjaq on October 11, 2016, 07:48:50 AM
There are proven ways around such a dilemma of getting new surgeons - they need to be trained and work as a team with one of those surgeons who is really good. Not for a few surgeries but for a longer time. Its the only way one can avoid having guinea pig patients everytime a surgeon starts new in the field.
I totally agree that this would be the best way to deal with the problem. But for practical reasons it's just not that feasible. Med school, residency, and fellowship training is already very expensive and very long. What incentive is there for a new surgeon to train for even more years under another surgeon for what would probably be less than minimum wage? And what incentive is there for the experienced surgeon to give a portion of his profits, and more importantly, his valuable time in order to train an apprentice? Out of the goodness of their hearts and a love for the transgender community? :)
Quote from: anjaq on October 11, 2016, 07:48:50 AM
I would thus encourage everyone to choose a surgeon with a good reputation and experience and if finances are an issue , better save money for 3 or 5 years and upgrade to a surgeon that is less cheap but has experience.
Yes, I fully agree with you on this. Unfortunately there are some who will always be desperate and do anything to get the surgeries they need, putting their very lives at risk.
Well - thats one of the issues always - when its all about profit and competition things do not actually improve but rather end up being good for some and bad for others...
Usually the surgeons tend to let someone participate when they get older and do not want to do 8 hour surgeries anymore anyways, I guess. Dr O trained Dr Deschamps in FFS, Suporn trains his kid to take over the business,...
Quote from: anjaq on October 11, 2016, 09:08:46 AM
Suporn trains his kid to take over the business,...
I've never heard that before?
Quote from: EmilyMK03 on October 11, 2016, 07:19:02 AM
He went to Rice University for his undergrad education, which is a very good school. And his residency was in urology, which is one of the most competitive and highly paid M.D. specialties. And a fellowship in reconstructive urology too. Very impressive. He must be very smart and very driven.
By that standard all doctors must be very good, and yet they are clearly not. I see it in my own field; how so many highly educated people can turn out so mediocre confounds me.
Quote from: EmilyMK03 on October 11, 2016, 07:19:02 AM
I guess it just goes to show that the transgender surgical field is still quite new. And therefore the risks that are inherent in any surgery are so much greater when it comes to the surgeries that we seek.
This is another reason why I favour Thailand. Unlike the rest of the world it isn't new in Thailand at all. The kathoey community in particular is huge and cosmetic surgery generally has been around there for decades. They really know their stuff.
Quote from: anjaq on October 11, 2016, 07:48:50 AM
There are proven ways around such a dilemma of getting new surgeons - they need to be trained and work as a team with one of those surgeons who is really good. Not for a few surgeries but for a longer time. Its the only way one can avoid having guinea pig patients everytime a surgeon starts new in the field.
And, again, this is one of the things I love about PAI. It's not a one man show. It's an institute and Dr Preecha has retained the best surgeons, as well as training most of the others in Thailand like Drs Suporn and Chettawut. http://pai.co.th
I just really like the feel of the place: it's in a smart part of Bangkok, the clinic is large and modern and it has a reassuring feel about it with lots of medical staff and doctors, as well as patients.
I don't work for them, gain nothing by writing the above and I apologise if I sound a bit OTT sometimes. It's just that my experience there for my orchiectomy was top notch and I'm returning next month for my FFS.
Quote from: Rachel Richenda on October 12, 2016, 01:59:22 AM
This is another reason why I favour Thailand. Unlike the rest of the world it isn't new in Thailand at all. The kathoey community in particular is huge and cosmetic surgery generally has been around there for decades. They really know their stuff.
I'd agree with that, the only thing to watch out for is the difference between the good surgeons and the bad ones. I believe there's about 20 surgeons, and you can get SRS for only US$2000. Don't think I'd care to try that.
The other difficulty is that there's only some surgeons that are well known in the English speaking intentional community. I'd never heard much about PAI until Warlockmaker talked about it. It makes it very hard to judge how good they are, though seeing the efforts Warlockmaker went to checking it out its exceptionally convincing.
Quote from: Rachel Richenda on October 12, 2016, 02:02:51 AM
I don't work for them, gain nothing by writing the above and I apologise if I sound a bit OTT sometimes.
There's a lot of people guilty of that, me included.
Well, thats a very common thing to happen. People who had a surgery somewhere and either really liked it, or had complications but have some reason to blame themselves for it will really promote that surgeon because of the great work he has done on themselves in their subjective opinion. This is quite understandeable. Sadly sometimes it also happens with people not having great results because they are still happier than without those surgeries, especially SRS is such a topic where I sometimes get the impression that people are so happy to get rid of the parts they had before that it is secondary if the vulva created is not really that authentic or if the vagina is too short for heterosexual intercourse - especially if they happen to be lesbian, they may be happy with something I would never be happy with and still promote that surgeon (this mainly is from my experience with German Transwomen and german GRS surgeons who are in my opinion largely incompetent).
So I know it is an urge to promote ones surgeon. I would also always recommend Dr Kim for voice surgery over all others, because I think he did such great work on me and some others I know. But when choosing a surgeon, I now tend not to give much on people saying "I was there and it is great" but rather try to look at more objective things, like photos, numbers etc. But of course, a surgeon that everyone speaks of highly and more importantly that no one has any complaints about, is probably not a bad choice.