http://m.nro.sagepub.com/content/16/5/550.abstract
We know how transphobes and homophobes love to ignore science and they only know 3rd grade biology. This article of neuropsychiatry could teach them a lot. We need to remember behavior is influenced by society and its rules too, but gender identity and sexual orientation are innate. They are programmed into fetal brains just like the risk of developing specific mental disorders like schizophrenia and sexual disorders like paraphilias.
I have issues with sex addiction too, which we know happens mostly to men (mostly, meaning it's mostly men who face certain issues related to sexuality, but women do too, they are just a minority compared to men). I wonder if that risk of developing sexual disorders was programmed into my brain too just like my gender identity was. I don't feel comfortable with sharing certain experiences with sex addiction publicly here, so I won't go into details. I just wanted to share the article + general experiences I have. I know society encourages men to be sexual and tends to shame women for having sexual thoughts, but I also think the male identity has an innate tendency to be sex obsessed and the innate risk of developing sexual disorders. It's not offensive, there is nothing wrong with being very sexual or with having sexual disorders. It's just a tendency that is more observed in men than in women.
That's a good abstract you found. I had this conversation with a co-worker (Cruz/Trump supporter) on Friday. He kept whining about how our Judeo-Christian society had been degraded by LGBT, especially the T with the bathroom issue.
I tried to interject some science as discussed in your article, but he didn't want to hear it. He just kept droning on about how they are abnormal and since they know they are abnormal they should go away.
Most of those people are beyond reasoning with.
Sapere Aude
You can hardly argue with his opening premise. Transgender people are a minority and, by definition, a minority is not normal. (Of or near the majority) :P
Yeah. I also tried to explain identity but that was over his head. In his mind it's simply homosexuals who want to dress up.
On a positive note, there was a time when I would have gotten really angry. No more. I guess it's a combination of HRT and knowing that his side has already lost the war and is just fighting a rear guard action now.
Sapere Aude
I get really irritated when people use the name of God and hide behind religion to discriminate against others. Anyone who uses religion to bash others is an extremist and has issues with themselves. If these extremists/bible literalists want to go back to living as they lived 3000 years ago then they can separate themselves from the rest of society and create their own communities. But they should leave everyone else out of it.
You can tell him there are believers in Judeo-Christian tradition who disagree with him and are extremely ashamed of being surrounded by ignorant literalists and hypocrites. I see the bible as ancient people's understanding and relationship with God, not to be taken literally because society evolves and we are not like we were 3000 years ago. If he wants to be literal he should go out stoning people. Society evolved, that same religion evolved too (see how Reform Judaism in the US made its own rules to protect trans and gay people in their communities). If he's a Christian he has no business talking about Leviticus or whatever he is referring to. I am an ex Christian, I came to hold different beliefs now but I know how they distort and cherry pick stuff. I know them very well.
But there is no point in arguing with people like that. It's a lost battle unless they change and are open to education. What is in his mind was openly debunked by serious, unbiased science and if he's too arrogant (or maybe scared) to educate himself then let him drown in his own sea of ignorance.
You say his side has lost the war. I really hope so. Unfortunately, I tend to be pessimistic about these things. Maybe because I live in a rural town somewhere in Europe where we don't even have equal marriage.
Maybe when I get hrt I will relax but the reason why I can't immediately start hrt is because of people like that around me. So it makes me angry.
The thinking leaders know they have lost the war and have publicly said as much. While they are so far not changing their beliefs they are rethinking how they interact with the larger society. The future is in rapid change.
Sapere Aude
I was hoping this would have been a new article since all the more ammunition helps when facing the "gender is a social construct" junk. I think most of us here can say introspectively that the more we attempt to deny or suppress gender the stronger it returns which shows it is biological reality. However this isn't enough so we have to trawl through trillions of papers and end up becoming amateur-neurobiologists in the process. ;D
Also hi everyone, I haven't logged into this account since my introductory post. But all the annoying bathroom nonsense coming from the US stirred me to login. :)
I knew i was attracted to both genders from my earliest understanding of what attraction was. I also felt feminine very early on in life.
Gender as a social construct is maybe not ultra-accurate, but i think it is in the sense that the expression of gender is socially constructed. The color pink was once a boy's color and within the last several decades it's mainly been associated with girls as an example. So when we see the expression of gender, we can see that indeed it is socially created. If i'd been born and lived naked on a deserted island with one other person, i would still feel feminine, i maybe would not have the social context in which to express it.
Quote from: RobynD on May 11, 2016, 01:30:15 PM
Gender as a social construct is maybe not ultra-accurate, but i think it is in the sense that the expression of gender is socially constructed.
I agree. The whole gender as a social construct has always sounded stupid to me and if taken to its logical conclusion invalidates the whole concept of trans as being an inborn condition.
Gender expression as a social construct is certainly true. Maybe that's what everybody really means? If so, we need to be precise in translating thoughts to words because if all of this is understood to be nothing more than "a social construct" then the anti-trans element is not wrong.
Sapere Aude
The real "social construct" is gender role. Rather than leaving each of us to our own devices, our families, friends, community, country, and whoever else forces each of us into a defined social role based on what's between our legs.
Gender role could be seen as synonymous to gender expression. They are at least very closely related.
Sapere Aude
Quote from: Deborah on May 11, 2016, 04:05:37 PM
Gender role could be seen as synonymous to gender expression. They are at least very closely related.
Sorry, Deborah, I was modifying my post when you responded. I've added pertinent information.
To my thinking, GENDER ROLE represents the socially constructed expectation society places on each individual. IF you are born with a penis you will perform the socially constructed role society has decided is right for you. Those born with a vagina are burdened with a different set of expectations. Woe be to those of us who transgress.
GENDER EXPRESSION, on the other hand, is how we either comply with the social expectation placed on us at birth, or deviate from it. Role and expression are not the same thing.
I could see how Gender Expectation (role) and Gender Expression could be seen as passive and active respectfully.
How can sexual orientation be pre-programmed before birth when it's well known and documented by trans people experiencing HRT that hormones can and often do alter sexual orientation. The hormones you make and the amount of them you receive once your sex organs are activated are quite clearly playing a role in what a person's sexual orientation is or continues to be. And a lack of certain hormones can cause complete lack of sexual interest in anyone. Those sex hormones do not come into sufficient production to affect sexuality until much later in a person's life and can themselves be subject to feedback loops and environmental stimuli. A lot can happen between birth and puberty.
I know people really want to find a "gay gene" and the like to prove being gay is nobody's fault, or to believe that fetal development holds all the answers, but I'm more inclined to believe there is no orientation or sex drive without sex hormones; they are at least 50% of this puzzle.
My orientation hasn't changed at all. That I never acted on it was due to other factors but it is now as it has always been known to me. Do other people's orientations really change or do the just become honest with themselves for the first time in their lives? I don't think anyone can answer that definitively so the question remains open.
I will agree with you that high T makes sex drive a primal urge while lack of it allows the mind to assert control.
Sapere Aude
T.K.G.W. the way it seems to work is that orientation is preprogrammed along a continuum of "interested in like" to "interested in other". If you're near the ends of that spectrum you can flip-flop. Nearer the middle and with other inputs you may not. I think this is why late transitioners are less likely to change the gender they're attracted to. I've never trusted men, even when I seemed to be one, so I didn't change, but not changing could have all kinds of reasons.
HRT didn't change my sexual orientation either. I have to let go of homoeroticism, but that isn't uncomfortable the way dysphoria is uncomfortable.
Keep in mind younger people often haven't figured their sexual orientation out, especially if they're bi.
However, I'm open to the possibility that some minority of people's sexual orientation changes on hormones. It seems like in many studies there is always the small minority of people who have X hard-to-believe neurological change on HRT. ;)
A lot of genes only become active due to certain environmental changes or changes in hormones. It could be possible that we have a gene or a set of genes that predispose us one way or another towards developing a certain sexuality, and in combination with hormonal and environmental stressors, a certain sexuality may take root. This would mean that why sexuality may not be set in stone from before birth, we are all born with predispositions.
One part of that abstract I don't like is the following:
QuoteGender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender), sexual orientation (heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality), pedophilia, sex differences in cognition, and the risks for neuropsychiatric disorders are programmed into our brains during early development.
It's conflating being trans with paedophilia, which is a classic tactic used by TERFs. I've not heard anywhere else of paedophilia being an inbuilt, instinctive behaviour driven by prenatal brain development. To me it seems far more likely to be a fetish (or perversion) resulting from life experiences at around the time puberty was taking place, that has led to that person becoming fixated on children for sexual gratification rather than being able to form normal emotional and sexual relationships with adults.
The article doesn't say being trans is like being a pedophile. It simply suggests there might be something before birth that can make someone attracted to children. It's like saying it's a sexual orientation.
T.K.G.W where did you get that info? It's much much more likely people feel comfortable and honest with themselves only after HRT so they start being more honest about their sexuality and might also experience more things.
I know for a fact I'd find it hard to have sex with someone before physical transition. I am bi and doing something sexual with a man when I am pre everything would make me extremely uncomfortable. I dont want to be seen as having cishet sex. Same with a woman...I dont want it to be considered lesbian sex. It disgusts me. Chances are many trans people only get comfortable with their sexuality after hormones or surgeries or both. As a consequence, they also tend to be more honest with themselves.
I am bi with a very strong preference for women, so I'm mostly straight. Being a trans guy pre everything prevented me to be honest with myself though, so it took a while for me to admit I soemtimes get attracted to men too. It's because I felt like I wasn't a "real man" or some other bs like that. Then I started figuring out I was letting social norms about sexuality and trans people stereotypes control me. So I started thinking "yes, trans people can be gay or bi too and it doesn't make them weird or fake". So I said ok I am bi and it doesn't make me less of a man.
I suspect the real reason is after self-acceptance you get more honest with yourself. Some people need hrt to start being completely honest with themselves, others like me realize it earlier.
From about 5 years of frequenting various trans forums and trans people's blogs. I've seen more than a few people progress from straightness to bisexuality, to lesbianism etc. according to their own admission. And quite a few topics alluding to the poster asking whether it was normal to feel like their sexuality was morphing during HRT. That they were once attracted to women and now only men, or vice versa, or both etc.
I'm going to go on what they claim in words, rather than assume for them that they are just more comfortable with themselves. Some might be, but there's no other way to know other than what a person admits about themselves.
Quote from: T.K.G.W. on May 22, 2016, 03:08:47 AM
From about 5 years of frequenting various trans forums and trans people's blogs. I've seen more than a few people progress from straightness to bisexuality, to lesbianism etc. according to their own admission. And quite a few topics alluding to the poster asking whether it was normal to feel like their sexuality was morphing during HRT. That they were once attracted to women and now only men, or vice versa, or both etc.
I'm going to go on what they claim in words, rather than assume for them that they are just more comfortable with themselves. Some might be, but there's no other way to know other than what a person admits about themselves.
Some people seem to have fluid sexuality and have experiences with various genders. I suspect those who say they changed their sexuality are simply bisexuals who find themselves more attracted to one gender at some point, either because of hormones triggering something pre-existent or just themselves being more comfortable.
I could never imagine myself not being attracted to women. I love women to the point of being attracted to many of them at once. But I could totally imagine myself being more comfortable with sex in general after transition, because I want to be able to take my shirt off and be free. And for some reason I'd be more comfortable with men....I suspect it's because right now I don't want people to assume I'm cis and hetero if I show interest in a guy and invalidate my gender. Assuming I'm lesbian would be equally offensive. I guess this is why I just feel uncomfortable with sex, unless those people respect and recognize my actual male gender.
What worries me is a change in sex drive....I already have a high sex drive pre T, I hope it won't increase too much on T because that would mean I'd have to make huge efforts to control it - cause it's already high pre T.
Here's the thing with homophobes. They are usually in the closet. They are using God to hide their desires behind.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/
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Quote from: RavenMoon on June 01, 2016, 06:12:27 PM
Here's the thing with homophobes. They are usually in the closet. They are using God to hide their desires behind.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/
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Often, Yes--certainly! However, are you sure that the word "usually"
isn't too strong of a word to describe the frequency of this?
In the various studies done it would indicate yes, the majority of them have homo sexual impulses.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8772014/
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http://www.feelguide.com/2011/06/16/new-science-confirms-homophobic-men-have-intense-homosexual-impulses/
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Quote from: RavenMoon on June 01, 2016, 09:18:19 PM
In the various studies done it would indicate yes, the majority of them have homo sexual impulses.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8772014/
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That's a very small sample size, no?
Quote from: jossam on May 22, 2016, 05:28:02 PM
Some people seem to have fluid sexuality and have experiences with various genders. I suspect those who say they changed their sexuality are simply bisexuals who find themselves more attracted to one gender at some point, either because of hormones triggering something pre-existent or just themselves being more comfortable.
I would never want to say that firmly. Hormones DO impact cells in your brain so there's no reason to assume they couldn't impact sexual orientation. However, I think this phenom is a lot rarer than the "street talk" that goes around in our community.
Just for context, I am monosexual and have never experienced fluidity in sexual orientation. No change on T either. But the bisexuals in my life have experienced sexual fluidity, which means a precession or change in relative attraction to one sex and/or gender or other. It's just part of the bisexual experience and it can be set off by anything or nothing at all. So, a hormone shift could set off this precession in an individual. Then maybe they precess back. For example, Julia Serano originally came out as a lesbian but now identifies as bi. She says she didn't always realize that she was bisexual, but she was always bisexual even before HRT. It is also a very common thing in American society not to realize you are bisexual and therefore different from others until young adulthood, that is, somewhat later than monosexuals report being aware of their sexuality on average.
Quote from: Futurist on June 01, 2016, 09:21:20 PM
That's a very small sample size, no?
Pretty sure those studies have been repeated.
There are some issues with the method, and issues with applying those findings to women. But I think what underlies these results is how many times the Gay community has found its greatest political adversaries trolling for sex in all the wrong places. With the except of Fred Phelps (whose animus towards gays--and the military--apparently stemmed from having been raped while in the military), almost every every high profile professional homophobe has been caught with their pants down. Ted Haggard. Ken Mehlman. Numerous homophobic legislators. That ex-gay caught in a gay bar. They're like Jimmy Swaggart, pounding the pulpit every Sunday about the very sins of the flesh that bring them down. (For non Americans, in the 1980s he inveighed against adultery in florid detail while behind the scenes he was nailing a young lady who wasn't his wife.)
Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on June 03, 2016, 07:38:26 AM
Pretty sure those studies have been repeated.
There are some issues with the method, and issues with applying those findings to women. But I think what underlies these results is how many times the Gay community has found its greatest political adversaries trolling for sex in all the wrong places. With the except of Fred Phelps (whose animus towards gays--and the military--apparently stemmed from having been raped while in the military), almost every every high profile professional homophobe has been caught with their pants down. Ted Haggard. Ken Mehlman. Numerous homophobic legislators. That ex-gay caught in a gay bar. They're like Jimmy Swaggart, pounding the pulpit every Sunday about the very sins of the flesh that bring them down. (For non Americans, in the 1980s he inveighed against adultery in florid detail while behind the scenes he was nailing a young lady who wasn't his wife.)
You're right, there are problems with the method, and there's a study I know of which suggest male physical arousal correlates with subjective arousal less than 50 percent, and it was a indepth study. So, yes the study you are talking about can be disregarded.
As far as gender/sexuality changes, it can happen and there are few stroke studies suggesting it can and Diamonds' studies point to that. Brain changes to sexuality/gender aspect to it can affect one's sexuality. I say this as a person whose sexuality has died.
Quote from: jossam on May 22, 2016, 05:28:02 PM
I could never imagine myself not being attracted to women. I love women to the point of being attracted to many of them at once. But I could totally imagine myself being more comfortable with sex in general after transition, because I want to be able to take my shirt off and be free. And for some reason I'd be more comfortable with men....I suspect it's because right now I don't want people to assume I'm cis and hetero if I show interest in a guy and invalidate my gender. Assuming I'm lesbian would be equally offensive. I guess this is why I just feel uncomfortable with sex, unless those people respect and recognize my actual male gender.
I am also more comfortable approaching men sexually as a man, basically for the same reasons, but I'm still not sexually attracted to them. Not before, not now. So it would be about getting rocks off. This is something known as "situational homosexuality" in anthropology. It's about convenience, not sexual preference.
I knew this about myself before I started T but I was curious if it would change on T. Nope. No change.
Quote from: jossam on May 22, 2016, 05:28:02 PM
What worries me is a change in sex drive....I already have a high sex drive pre T, I hope it won't increase too much on T because that would mean I'd have to make huge efforts to control it - cause it's already high pre T.
Here is what I have found about sex drive and T: the first few months suck because you're going through genital growth. If you wear the wrong clothing it can actually hurt. At one point I was covering it in coconut oil so it wouldn't distract me. As for needing to masturbate a lot, if you keep mentally and physically busy the urge fades quickly. Especially heavy physical labor will do this. Of course if your form of physical labor ends up stimulating that area too I guess it is what it is. At least nobody will see your erection.
Quote from: Reptillian on June 11, 2016, 06:53:37 PM
You're right, there are problems with the method, and there's a study I know of which suggest male physical arousal correlates with subjective arousal less than 50 percent, and it was a indepth study. So, yes the study you are talking about can be disregarded.
Seriously? I don't think so at all. Physical arousal ends up corresponding with surreptitious behavior way too often. Subjective arousal is subject to cultural factors, societal control. That was my point bringing up the open homophobes (who often, especially on online forums, wanted to tell us in detail about "the butt sex"). They would claim until blue in the face to be 110% heterosexual while sneaking around getting their rocks off with dudes (or ladies) in private.
The experiment set out to SHOW that physical arousal didn't correspond with subjective. So there you go. It also showed that expressing more homophobia verbally corresponded with more male/male physical arousal. Huh. I think that is demonstrated, not disregardable. I think that's a
proven fact that what a person
tells you about their sexual identity does not necessarily track with what turns their body on.
Gender identity perhaps but sexual orientation? How does one account for so much diversity, the wide range of sexuality that exists? In this deterministic, anything goes society where 'normal' is totally discredited what happens to choice, free will? Is there only 'perversion' and chaos with no hope of normative order at all?
As a youth I was exclusively attracted only to girls on an strongly emotional level that had an almost vampire like quality of dependence, to the total exclusion of 'sex'. The only thing I knew for sure I was completely attached to the feminine mystic at the total expense of anything 'me'; a young handsome male in sheep's clothing for sure.
Feeling/having nothing "to prove" then along came alleged "gay sex". However, being unwilling to 'reciprocate' in like fashion is when realized I was sexually frustrating not only young women but gay men as well. Something had to change, a CHOICE was made, and it had to be either me or 'them'!
LOL Changing 'Glenn', my HS sweetheart, did NOT work out at all!!Unlike some intolerant democrats (two wrongs doesn't = 'right) one cannot change the world to suit our needs but rather one must adapt and try to 'fit in'. Totally not understanding either "gay" or "lesbian" feel 'trans' was a conscious choice I made in an desperate attempt to be 'normal', which some say doesn't exist?
So plz don't tell me there's no connection between identity and orientation because I have spent my entire life adjusting my sexuality (lol or lack thereof) to fit my gender with social acceptance just as important, if not moreso, as 'passing'.
The former we can totally control. The latter?
Unfortunately for some not so much.
Quote from: Scientific American ThesisTheir finding are revealing that even within the transsexual community there is much diversity. For example, a biological male who experiences gender dysphoria, and thus feels like a female, can be either gay or straight when it comes to his sexual orientation. And beyond the mixing and matching that occurs between sex, gender and sexual orientation, a huge array of psychological and cultural factors seems to underlie or affect trans sexuality.