Susan's Place Transgender Resources

ETA: I posted something similar to this before, but this is an update and I still haven't found a great solution yet.

So now I'm 9 months on T and only recently starting to pass, but definitely not even passing 100% of the time. My voice still hasn't dropped. My body is mostly feminine. My face is the most masculine part of me and the thing that helps me pass at least some of the time, as I do have facial hair and generally a somewhat masculine facial structure. But I'm so tired of living in this in-between mode. It's seriously messing with me.

But probably my biggest concern is...-I- still don't feel truly male. I know that I LIKE how masculine my face looks; I like when I look masculine in pictures, etc. But I still feel like it's just a costume.

Like when people DO call me "sir"/"bro", etc, and read me as male (strangers, not people that already know I'm trans, cuz that doesn't really count), I have a mixture of emotions. I'm happy about it and I feel more comfortable, but at the same time, I feel like..."They're assuming something about me that's not true. They're assuming I have a penis, that I don't have breasts, that I don't have the female body or upbringing that I actually do have." And that sometimes makes me feel like a fraud.

I'm much happier with my appearance when I look male. When I can look in the mirror and see someone that looks male. But I always go back to the fact that it's just an illusion. If I take off my clothes, what do I really have? A slightly masculinized female body.

I worry too that, because having a penis is THE thing that defines 'male' to 95% of society, that even when I pass 100% of the time and even after I have my chest surgery, I'll still feel like a fraud because I don't have THE definitive piece of maleness.

I dunno what to do. When, if ever, will I truly feel like I have the right to say I'm male? When will I believe it for myself and feel legitimate? I feel like I still see myself as female because that's how I was brought up and that's the body I was born with and most of the parts I still have; sometimes when I interact with people, especially cis guys, I "default" to acting female too, and that definitely bothers me.

I'm considering switching to injections because 9 months and only now starting to pass some of the time...does that seem right to you guys? I see a lot of trans guys that 100% pass, voice dropped, EVERYTHING by 4 months on injections...And I think that maybe if I started to pass 100% of the time, maybe that would help? I'm not sure.

Got no answers for you, but I feel almost exactly the same as you about being a fraud.  I'm hoping with time these feelings will go away though.

I'm 8 1/2 months on t and only pass 60-70 percent of the time depending on how much effort I put into it before leaving the house.  My voice passes about the same on the phone.  I've been on injections since the beginning and am 32 years old.

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If a cis guy lost his penis to a disease or something, which does happen, does he cease to be a male? I get your point and acknowledge it but it's not what defines a male or causes someone to suddenly become "not male" if they happen to lose it. You currently have the same issue any cis guy with that problem does, and the doubts, troubles and insecurities are probably very similar.

There are no 'rights' of that kind. People say and believe what they want about themselves and it can't really be taken away from them. Other people can say what they think about it as well and it doesn't matter. You have to decide for yourself what you are and what to be, as leaving that up to society isn't enough... the fact it isn't enough is why we're all here talking about this, but can't ask us when you will believe it - we don't know ... only you know yourself and why you decided to transition.

But 9 months isn't long enough for a normal male puberty to take place, so give it longer. It can be 5 years or more for some and the same goes for taking T. 

There's only one way out of feeling like a fraud - knowing yourself. If you went 'back' you'd probably feel like a fraudulent female too - I know I did - and what use is that if you're seeking authenticity? The only way is forward.

It's understandably difficult to "feel like a man" but then not actually know what being a man feels like - but remember, nobody else knows what being anything is like other than being what they are. A man does not know how all other men feel, he knows only what it is to be himself, even if he does have some common biological concerns with them. Nobody knows what it is others feel for sure. If you stopped a cis man in the street and asked him what it is to truly be a man, can he tell you? He can tell you some things about having a male body, but would his answer to the "truly" be the same as the next man's? What he would likely be telling you is what it feels like to be human, or to live in a gender role as prescribed by a particular society. Nobody's ever been able to tell me exactly what the essence of being human and alive is, either... much less the essence of being male or female. None of them could give you an adequate answer to whether one person truly feels like another. You're going to have to write your own story on that. We all are.

     

Sorry dude,

Thing is yes most of society sees "having a dick" as male, but do they see your dick? No. Are you hiding it from people? You dont go around showing people your genitals as valid confirmation of what youre supposed to be in their eyes. You feel male, you feel better looking masculine...there's your answer. That is you. If you start feeling self concious because of what people would think if they knew, that's when it falls apart. Nobody ever has to know about that personal part of your life, no one who isnt intimate with you needs to know. If you show people what you are, it is what you are. There's nothing fraudulant about that.

As for the acting, that's a bit harder. The best way is to just be yourself and like before, dont overthink and dont be self conscious, even though most men have a culture, not all of them fit it, and that's where you fall. Surely youve had experiences in your childhood that are neither male or female, but just you being a kid? There's not necessarily a growing up process in being a guy, if you felt those tinges of masculine traits in your youth and acted on a lot of those, there's your background.

I understand what it must be to feel like you are still female. Personally, since 95% of the population as you say counts having a penis as male, I feel like, at least biologically, I am female. None of that will ever change. Sex is all the bits you cannot change, but gender? You and I both know that as male. Feeling male, seeing male, and being more comfortable in masculine form is our gender, that's what we are and what people see. Not the genitals and not the chromosome.

You're not lying to yourself and you're not lying to anyone else. Just walk the walk and be yourself and you'll be fine.

QuoteIf you stopped a cis man in the street and asked him what it is to truly be a man, can he tell you? He can tell you some things about having a male body, but would his answer to the "truly" be the same as the next man's? What he would likely be telling you is what it feels like to be human, or to live in a gender role as prescribed by a particular society. Nobody's ever been able to tell me exactly what the essence of being human and alive is, either... much less the essence of being male or female. None of them could give you an adequate answer to whether one person truly feels like another. You're going to have to write your own story on that. We all are.

   

Now that I think about it, my answer and OP's with most the population thinking "having a dick"  as a man is mostly what men think when comparing transgender men to biological l men,

However, I have heard the typical responses to "What makes you a man", and surprisingly a lot of those traits are virtuous or value traits rather than physical, things that arent even exclusively male like caring for your family in a household, being a good father, always being true to your word, standing your ground, being compassionate, etc. Essentially exactly what you said. A lot of those traits are something that isnt geared to anything physical. So you are definitely right.

I don't think I can offer much advice but just to let you know I still feel the same way. What has helped slightly is starting a new job in stealth mode as it has forced to me to try to fit in and to feel somewhat 'normal'.  Where I work at least all you have to do is stand your ground and make fun of each other a bit and you're accepted into the male club. Although I'm still a bit useless at that; what I have noticed is that one of my managers who's a bit fem and camp in his mannerisms and how he talks has a bit of difficulty also relating to the guys at work but ofc he's still seen as male and respected and treated no different. So as a trans guy there's hope for me too.

Even though I still feel awkwardly inbetween; I hope this'll change once I get top surgery though and be able to start a new career soon afterwards. To add to the penis discussion it wouldn't matter if a cis guy had a smaller than average one as that wouldn't make him less male or seen as less male. It's how you act which matters.

I can relate to what you say Bacon. I feel like I' m lying to people if I say "I' m male" because it might not be exactly what they are expecting. At the same time I' m lying to people if I say "I' m female" because it's not really either what they are expecting. Both for different reasons. Who is our true self though? Is it the spirit or is it the body? Saying "we're male", is lying to those who think it's the body, and saying "I' m female" to those that think it's the spirit. I realized lately that our true self is whatever form we take where we feel more free, comfortable and able to express our full potential. Posing as a persona that doesn't fit us is not only a disservice to ourselves, but also to others because we're taking away from them the "magic" that we could be offering otherwise. Most people will ultimately care about what they feel more than what they think, and what they feel is related to what they perceive. What they perceive has to do with their own expectations, experiences and to what we transmit, not strictly physically but with how we move, how we react, how we feel, the general "vibration" we transmit. I always recall this incident where I was in cosplay, waiting for something with the president of that particular series' fanclub. It's a costume I feel a bit self conscious about, because although the clothes are fine, I' m not tall enough (or at all), I have a different body shape, a different facial shape, and I can never fix my hair correctly (leaving aside the fact that I' m the opposite sex). However, she turned around and awkwardly said "It's weird but... I sorta feel like I' m with him (the character) right now". That was really strange (and self assuring), like, if I could look like him, there, I go and conquer the world right now. However, what did she perceive? what could I have possibly done for her to feel that way? What did she see that I didn't? In the end it's all about that, something that we transmit, beyond our physical form, that makes people perceive us.

It is for these reasons that I don't think we should focus on our bodies that much, just enough for us to feel comfortable, but we will never feel comfortable until we accept ourselves mentally. That's also why I don't like the terms FTM and MTF, and I prefer Transman and Transwoman instead. FTM is focusing only in the body, because what is it that it's female after all and needs transitioning? Just the body, since our gender has always been male. FTM focuses on transition. And when will that transition ever be complete? When will THE BODY ever be male? If we do everything that medical science can offer us? what if something new comes up tomorrow? It's a cycle that will never end, and we will always be stuck as FTMs then.

Now, as to how to "feel like a man", it's a problem that many cis guys have as well (they feel like teenage boys and not real men even though they are 30). And not only men, you also see in medical forums many students asking "when will I feel like a doctor?", you can complete medical school and not feel like one even though legally and technically you are. The answer is actually quite simple "ACT LIKE ONE, BECOME ONE". The thing is, you need to establish what being a man is to you, what a man does, and then do those things. Personally, and especially with the whole "feeling like a doctor", my problem is that I had too many examples of what "being a doctor" was like. That's BAD, focus on one. You go out and see 50 guys in the street, they are all different, they all do different things, then anything you do is "male", but that doesn't help. My advice then is to think of someone who you consider to be "A man" and emulate them, do what they do, try to embrace how they think if you think it's worthy. Eventually you will become them.

Good luck!

Quote from: David1987 on April 02, 2017, 09:04:03 AM

It is for these reasons that I don't think we should focus on our bodies that much, just enough for us to feel comfortable, but we will never feel comfortable until we accept ourselves mentally. That's also why I don't like the terms FTM and MTF, and I prefer Transman and Transwoman instead. FTM is focusing only in the body, because what is it that it's female after all and needs transitioning? Just the body, since our gender has always been male. FTM focuses on transition. And when will that transition ever be complete? When will THE BODY ever be male? If we do everything that medical science can offer us? what if something new comes up tomorrow? It's a cycle that will never end, and we will always be stuck as FTMs then.

I think ftm and mtf exists in cases where context needs to define what someone was born as vs what they are transitioning as, since cis or less educated people might get confused with terms like "transgender woman" (I know I did, because "wait is that a man who's transitioning to be a woman or a woman transitioning to be a man"?, not everyone knows that the term describes what they become as themselves, not what they're transitioning out of). So to clarify that FTM and MTF exist as a way to know how someone is transitioning, and it doesnt always have to be used but in discussion based terms where you want to make the subject clear I think those terms are very helpful in existing, actually.

Quote from: David1987 on April 02, 2017, 09:04:03 AMAnd not only men, you also see in medical forums many students asking "when will I feel like a doctor?", you can complete medical school and not feel like one even though legally and technically you are. The answer is actually quite simple "ACT LIKE ONE, BECOME ONE". The thing is, you need to establish what being a man is to you, what a man does, and then do those things. Personally, and especially with the whole "feeling like a doctor", my problem is that I had too many examples of what "being a doctor" was like. That's BAD, focus on one. You go out and see 50 guys in the street, they are all different, they all do different things, then anything you do is "male", but that doesn't help. My advice then is to think of someone who you consider to be "A man" and emulate them, do what they do, try to embrace how they think if you think it's worthy. Eventually you will become them.

True enough. We all get born with no idea how to act, learn first how to control ourselves and eventually to become adults, and overlaying that is always the urge to be the sort of person we really want to be, and not just a person. Everyone goes through that, not just our kind. Learning to be is a process, not some inborn gift all people have just because they are human, knowing what they are and how to be it from the get go.

What you said about the doctors I've heard in the arts as well. "When will I feel like an artist?" or "when will I feel like I'm actually a performer"? I've heard many times, and the answers from the pros is always the same - there is no "point" you cross and then suddenly bam, you're whatever it is you wanted to be and feel different about it. You start doing something professionally or seriously then you are it. Even if you feel like a fraud at the time, or a newbie or a lost cause, so long as you are trying and doing then you are. One day, probably long after you've stopped worrying about it it might occur to you again and you'll know you are already that, which happened with me in my job. One day I was doing a few odd jobs for people and thinking I wasn't really much of anything, stopped thinking/worrying about it and just got on with doing it, and then a few years down the line there's no denying my job title. I am what I set out to be now, do it everyday like it's second nature. I suppose the same can be said of the maleness, and the task of leaving the old stuff behind and learning to be what you see yourself as.

It's fortunate in some ways that society isn't all that interested in seeing men's bodies, you don't have to show it off to have it judged to all comers - people generally are not interested in the contents of your pants or the contours of your body. Which is something about being male I appreciate. 

Thanks for the replies so far. It's good to know I'm not the only one that struggles with this concept.

I see a lot of trans guys, especially on Tumblr and such, that emphatically declare "I'm a guy" even if they are pre-everything, and refuse to acknowledge that there is anything female about them, which I find kinda crazy. One of them even was completely dolled up in a dress and makeup with no binder, nothing, looked completely female and still was tagging the pic with "ftm" and stuff. I sometimes wonder how they can be so confident about their maleness even when they seem to be doing nothing "male" at all, and here I am, actually taking T and presenting as male 100% of the time (even if I don't pass, I still always wear men's clothing, etc), and yet -I'm- the one still doubting if I can say I'm male.

I guess it all boils down to: what does it really mean to be male? We can't say it's just a feeling. Because then it becomes meaningless, doesn't it? So far, my opinion is that it HAS to be a physical thing more than anything else. Because as we all know, there are no personality traits or behaviors that are 100% male or even masculine, and there are plenty of ultra-feminine acting men that still identify as male, or ultra-masculine women that identify as female.

I do think there are differences between male and female brains, but are those differences absolute?

I don't know, and if they're not, then it has to be about physicality more than anything else. We wouldn't transition if it wasn't about our appearance. If we really believed that male bodies and female bodies were the same (which would obviously be a delusion), then transition wouldn't even exist. Transgender PEOPLE wouldn't exist. Because a woman could act just as masculine as any man if she wants to, she could dress in men's clothing, she could take on the male gender role in society, etc...Being trans, then, HAS to be about our self-image of our bodies and faces.

Which sometimes helps to think about and sometimes not. Sometimes it helps me because I think, "Well, as long as my self-image of myself is as a man, I guess that means I'm a man." But other times, it really doesn't help, because I know that my current body is still more female than male and I wonder if I'll ever be satisfied with the degree of maleness I can obtain through hormones and surgeries.

I'm a perfectionist; I wish I wasn't, and I'm trying to work on that, but there are certainly times that I think: "What if I always have wide, feminine hips? What if everything looks male except that?" And it disgusts me to think of myself as looking in-between or looking ALMOST completely male but not perfectly so. If I don't or can't get bottom surgery as well, that would always be an issue, because then it'd be like I'm not going from female to male but female to intersex.

As far as the behavior goes, well, I do think I naturally act and think "like a man" most of the time. But there are other times when I, for whatever reason, "default" into how I used to feel and act as a female. I think it could be a hormonal thing. When will the estrogen permanently decrease to a cis male range? I haven't had my period for 4 months now, but I feel like I definitely still have competing hormones in my body and brain.

Quote from: Bacon on April 02, 2017, 07:11:47 PM
Thanks for the replies so far. It's good to know I'm not the only one that struggles with this concept.

I see a lot of trans guys, especially on Tumblr and such, that emphatically declare "I'm a guy" even if they are pre-everything, and refuse to acknowledge that there is anything female about them, which I find kinda crazy. One of them even was completely dolled up in a dress and makeup with no binder, nothing, looked completely female and still was tagging the pic with "ftm" and stuff. I sometimes wonder how they can be so confident about their maleness even when they seem to be doing nothing "male" at all, and here I am, actually taking T and presenting as male 100% of the time (even if I don't pass, I still always wear men's clothing, etc), and yet -I'm- the one still doubting if I can say I'm male.

Another question is - does it matter if they do? Or should it matter to you? We are all doing this for ourselves, not for anyone else. After all

Quotewhat does it really mean to be male?

Is a hardcore metaphysical question because even science can't answer it - because there are people born we can't actually define as male or female with our insufficient criteria.

But evidently sex isn't just chromosomes, or just hormones, or just brain structure, or just body. It's all of them at once, all interacting and creating outcomes and feedback loops. It's not just a feeling but it's hormonal, it's psychological, it's physical and social. The brain affects the body and the body affects the brain.

QuoteI'm a perfectionist;

This is one area we'll never achieve perfection in. Can anybody? What is a perfect male or a perfect female? They don't exist, except in the eye of the beholder. Sure, you can fixate on the "perfect physical specimen" but none of us will ever be one of those.

QuoteI wish I wasn't, and I'm trying to work on that, but there are certainly times that I think: "What if I always have wide, feminine hips? What if everything looks male except that?" And it disgusts me to think of myself as looking in-between or looking ALMOST completely male but not perfectly so. If I don't or can't get bottom surgery as well, that would always be an issue, because then it'd be like I'm not going from female to male but female to intersex.

I get you. But you're just gonna have to deal with that, somehow, in some way... deal with not being 100% as you want. Cis people can and do exhibit similar thoughts about the sort of body they would want and people usually do wish some part of themselves was better in some way, nothing odd or pathological about wanting to perfect, we all want it. But of course most people accept their faults rather than beat themselves up endlessly over them. I dunno about you, but I would rather go on this journey with its uncertainty and risk than live my life as something that brought nothing but misery. If I don't "find" what I want in the end, least I tried. Better than doing nothing about feeling lousy, for fear of not being absolute, isn't it.

QuoteAs far as the behavior goes, well, I do think I naturally act and think "like a man" most of the time. But there are other times when I, for whatever reason, "default" into how I used to feel and act as a female. I think it could be a hormonal thing. When will the estrogen permanently decrease to a cis male range? I haven't had my period for 4 months now, but I feel like I definitely still have competing hormones in my body and brain.

T will cause your female organs to shut down so long as you keep taking it. So they should stop production of estrogen. The body knows what levels of hormones are coming in from the outside, and if the amount is sufficient, it will cease making its own.

No one likes themselves or feels comfortable/validated/certain 100% of the time. No one.
My gorgeous fit, curvy fiancée thinks her butt is flat. She also really contemplated getting breast implants for the longest time (thankfully, she opted out) and has ongoing issues socializing normally with other females.
Last year she got invited to this 'Galentine's' thing by one of her girlfriends. It was essentially a ton of women getting together and validating the ever loving **** out of one another (even if they didn't know one another...?). She ended up getting a card from one of them that said something god-awful (YOU were destined to be amazing and you have GORGEOUS EYES! - from one of them she didn't know) and she said her insides lurched because it felt so artificial. I remember her coming home and telling me she felt so isolated, annoyed by all the fakeness and frustrated with women in general to the point where she barely felt female herself.
But you know what? She's definitely cisgender and (I'd imagine) not very different from a lot of other women.

As others have said, there are a lot of men that feel the same way in regards to male socialization and not feeling 'male' enough. Your reasons for feeling that way may be different but the end result is the same. It's a tale as old as time and not in any way exclusive to transgender individuals.
We're really not as far removed as we sometimes tend to think.

If you asked me "do you feel male", I couldn't tell ya. I'm happy being male, and that feels right, and being female doesn't, and that takes it practically out of my hands. I don't know what my chromosomes look like but if they're just XX, who cares? The body needs a bit more time on T and I'm gonna put myself up for surgery referral next month, a bridge to cross when we get there. I won't pretend T doesn't make a huge difference in so many ways though. Thin down, then build your upper body. Whatever your bones are doing, this helps.

Such a difficult question to answer, "where does confidence come from" when it comes to something you either think you have experience in, or don't. I guess you just have to believe in yourself and stop second guessing. ALL of my confidence came from that, initially. Because I had none, and nobody to validate me. Had to build from the ground up towards whatever it was I wanted to be, completely alone. Even though it can come from "nothing", allow it and it will afford the opportunity to take the chances and actions that lead to real confidence. Then you don't need external validation all the time.

It sucks I can't articulate it better, and I honestly can't say where my faith derives from, but imagination and determination has its place here. No point worrying about the "absolutes" and things like your bones, and things you can do nothing about. All the power in this comes from another place. And from hormones. I do know what you mean, because I always want to be right and rarely risk being wrong, even conceptually. But when it comes to this... I thought hard about it and for a long time (my whole life I suppose, ongoing) and the final score is that the only thing that matters is what drives you and keeps you getting up out of bed tomorrow. In my case the biological 'facts' aren't enough, they don't know enough and I don't have time to waste hanging around for them to study it to tell me something. I feel a hell of a lot better with 'male blood' in my veins, as it were, on T... and that alone justifies everything I've done if you knew the physical pain that came before it. Everything you said are understandable legitimate concerns - but you're basing some of your ideas on stereotypes that leave a lot of people, not just us, poorly defined.

Quick example, my other half is a 100% legit cis dude with all his functioning bits, yet he's smaller than me, far less muscular and can't seem to build it up to my level, he's got almost zero body hair above his legs, he's extremely lithe... almost feminine in his bone structure, he's quiet and generally will never confront anyone, even if they're screwing him over. His first reaction if there's some sort of disturbance outside is to look at me for what to do, and if anyone has to take point and defend the place it's invariably me because those without the temperament for it don't tend to step up. I do have the temperament and experience, though, and I'm fine with it. In fact I wouldn't rely on anybody else to defend me or my place. If anything needs fixing round here, it'll be me doing it. I have the experience, carpentry, DIY general fixing of things... he doesn't. If anyone gets upset by confrontation, it's him, I tend to like it too much. Etc. etc. One of us was born XY and one probably wasn't but it makes little difference. One of these two has the male "role" and typical temperament come to them naturally regardless, the other one doesn't. But he's the more authentic male, right? He'd probably like to think so too. Maybe he is, but it's meaningless now. Soon it may be impossible to tell from looking who is. Will it matter then?

How you feel about your anatomy... well yeah, that's a tough one. I'd be lying if I said it was easy to deal with. But imo it's no worse than dealing with the female anatomy, which is so much fun I never even want to use it. Things may actually improve.
 

You seem like a very wise man, Kylo.  I've enjoyed reading your contributions to this discussion.  Plus, you seem to be a fellow Star Wars fan, so thumbs up! 

I just wanted to react to something Bacon said earlier, about anatomical females who are "pre-everything" still feeling a conviction that they're guys.  I happen to be pre-everything, and, in fact, am wearing a dress right now.  (What?! I have one and it's comfortable.)  I'm still pretty convinced that I qualify as male.  If I weren't, I wouldn't be seriously contemplating the pain and expense of transitioning. 

Of course, that begs the question, what makes me feel male?  I'm not entirely sure I have a good answer.  I could give a nebulous reply about "personal energy," and say that groups of guys seem to accept me as one of them (after a shorter or longer period of confusion), while groups of women tend to be polite but a bit distant with me, as if I were an outsider.  I could say that even as a preschooler, I liked "boy things," worshiped male heroes, and tried to convince my parents to call me by a boy's name.  (Being good people, they did it, but not in public.)  I could talk about a lifetime of gender dysphoria, and feeling depressed because while I felt truly myself in my dreams, I woke up every morning in a female body that seemed completely wrong for me. 

I suppose I could probably get by without physically transitioning at all, so long as I completely let go of all feelings of obligation to cram myself into others' expectations of a woman.  My therapist wants me to consider that option, actually.  But I really hate having tits, and always have.  I want them gone.  So I'll do what I have to do to at least have top surgery.

I think the key to getting rid of impostor feelings is to like and accept whatever it is you are, whether or not that's "male enough" for anybody else.   

Quote from: The Flying Lemur on April 03, 2017, 02:52:04 PM
You seem like a very wise man, Kylo.  I've enjoyed reading your contributions to this discussion.  Plus, you seem to be a fellow Star Wars fan, so thumbs up! 

Thank you. Indeed, a big Star Wars fan here.

QuoteI just wanted to react to something Bacon said earlier, about anatomical females who are "pre-everything" still feeling a conviction that they're guys.  I happen to be pre-everything, and, in fact, am wearing a dress right now.  (What?! I have one and it's comfortable.)  I'm still pretty convinced that I qualify as male.  If I weren't, I wouldn't be seriously contemplating the pain and expense of transitioning. 

People forget that it's only in this century that male and female casual wear really started to look very different, like suits and dresses. Historically in a lot of places, clothes for both genders weren't all that different, things like togas/pallas and kimonos/yutaka etc. had minimal differences. The idea of dress-like clothes on guys doesn't seem that weird to me, been to places where the men wear long dress-like outfits all the time. I suppose - I'll admit - that when I had to wear dresses as a kid, they were not uncomfortable to wear, in fact, more comfortable in many ways than pants. The problem came ironically when I wore them later that I felt very bizarre in them - very much "on display" and for whatever reason personally felt I must have looked ridiculous. I was told I didn't - but I mentally pictured a grizzly wearing a tutu and that was that, never again, lol. For those who don't mind or don't have a problem with it, more power to them.

QuoteI suppose I could probably get by without physically transitioning at all, so long as I completely let go of all feelings of obligation to cram myself into others' expectations of a woman.  My therapist wants me to consider that option, actually.  But I really hate having tits, and always have.  I want them gone.  So I'll do what I have to do to at least have top surgery.

I think the key to getting rid of impostor feelings is to like and accept whatever it is you are, whether or not that's "male enough" for anybody else.

It's very possible to live like that - I did before deciding to take the HRT and the surgery, and I guess besides being considered a little odd, nobody bothered me for it. As you say, getting rid of the chest is an imperative for me as well, although I would say taking T makes a big difference if you are feeling inhibited by anxiety or emotional responses (after some experimentation I would say female hormonal levels lead to a state of being generally "higher strung", and for some of us to be rid of that is a great relief).

Quote from: The Flying Lemur on April 03, 2017, 02:52:04 PM
I just wanted to react to something Bacon said earlier, about anatomical females who are "pre-everything" still feeling a conviction that they're guys.  I happen to be pre-everything, and, in fact, am wearing a dress right now.  (What?! I have one and it's comfortable.)  I'm still pretty convinced that I qualify as male.  If I weren't, I wouldn't be seriously contemplating the pain and expense of transitioning. 

There's a difference between wanting to be a guy and actually being one though, which is kind of my whole point. As you are now, you wouldn't qualify for any male-specific activities/clubs or be treated as a guy by 99% of society.

QuoteOf course, that begs the question, what makes me feel male?  I'm not entirely sure I have a good answer.  I could give a nebulous reply about "personal energy," and say that groups of guys seem to accept me as one of them (after a shorter or longer period of confusion), while groups of women tend to be polite but a bit distant with me, as if I were an outsider.

Same thing could be said for many masculine women though.

QuoteI could say that even as a preschooler, I liked "boy things,"

Same thing could be said for many masculine women.

Quoteworshiped male heroes

See above.

Quoteand tried to convince my parents to call me by a boy's name.

See above.

QuoteI could talk about a lifetime of gender dysphoria, and feeling depressed because while I felt truly myself in my dreams, I woke up every morning in a female body that seemed completely wrong for me.

I suppose I could probably get by without physically transitioning at all, so long as I completely let go of all feelings of obligation to cram myself into others' expectations of a woman.  My therapist wants me to consider that option, actually.  But I really hate having tits, and always have.  I want them gone.  So I'll do what I have to do to at least have top surgery.

This to me at least suggests that you're trans, but again, there must be a difference between wanting to be something and actually being something.

For example, let's say I want to be a famous musician. I could say that musicians seem to get along well with me and invite me into their inner circle. That as a preschooler, I gravitated toward musical activities. That I worshipped rock stars. That I would have dreams of myself playing huge, sold-out shows. Etc.

Does all that make me a famous musician? Nope. Obviously not. It just means that I want to be one. There are certain criteria that I'd have to meet to be considered a famous musician: I'd have to actually sell records and be popular enough that many people know my name. Since I don't meet those criteria, I can't in good conscience say I'm a famous musician, and if I did, I'd be considered totally delusional.

Why is it that gender is different?

All definitions of "male" are ones that we cannot claim:

"Male, which is applied to plants and animals as well as to human beings, is a biological or physiological descriptor, classifying individuals on the basis of their potential or actual ability to inseminate in bisexual reproduction."

"A person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence."

"An organism of the sex that normally produces a sperm cell or male gamete."

We have no claim to any of these...

Now maybe it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, and we should all just say "screw it" and do whatever we want, because the world is absurd and will end in another few billion years anyway. But that doesn't really make it easier for me to do the mental gymnastics required to arrive at the conclusion that I already -am- male or that I ever truly will be.

So maybe I'll have to settle for something else. Like acknowledging that I'm a woman that, for whatever reason, would rather look like and live as a man even if I'm not one. But this would probably lead to the same feelings of being a fraud. Being thought to be something by others and by society that isn't reality.

Well we can only draw from our personal experiences to try to get a handle on this. Let's look at it from another perspective. What makes me not a woman? What makes you not a woman?

What makes me not a woman - I can only offer - is that I have no intuitive understanding of women or any of their apparent habits and desires. I understand them now, I should think, but only from an outside perspective on why they tend to do the things they tend to do. I don't feel what they do, especially when it comes to their feelings toward other women, their often instinctive bonding with them, their feelings toward children, toward men, or childbirth, female body parts, dressing up, toward risk and personal safety, and so on. The way they see the world - from every cis woman that I have talked to and gathered this collective picture from - is apparently not the way I see it. The way I see it has much more in common with the way most men I know see it.

It's not just an opinion, however. There are things my body can do that I won't allow it to do, because of severe discomfort with these things. A lot of gut inhibitions. A lot of problems. Strict repression of emotional response. Abuse of hormones to eliminate the cycle. Thoughts about cutting female things off. I wouldn't get close to anyone for many years. I wouldn't tolerate the idea of starting a family or birthing a child. This is not normal - this is not something my female acquaintances suffer from, but it has much in common with how my male acquaintances view things like sex, menses, their anatomy, pregnancy and childbirth. It wasn't influenced by the men or the women, as I looked into their opinions on it many years later. . . these feelings were present from early adolescence and I mostly grew up without input from other people on any of it.

So what is this thing I am? It looked like a female but it was sexually and socially paralyzed; it couldn't be one, it couldn't operate like one or reproduce itself. It did not "work" as a female. The severity of the problem was obvious - I would never live anything close to a normal life unless this was changed to the opposite sex. I suppose you could view it as a defunct female. A deformed male. A hybrid. Whichever.

But if someone were to come up to me and say "you are a female", I would laugh. Hard. Because even if it looked that way, there was very little about me that would demonstrate it, and even less that would allow me to function as one. If I am a female, then I'm a complete failure - an evolutionary write-off, a genetic dead end, one of nature's little mistakes... since I'm compelled to avoid fulfilling my evolutionary and biological function as one. Science might declare it so, but science doesn't have answers to everything yet. It doesn't even know exactly what we are or how we come to be. And I used to be a biologist.

I used to be very black and white about things to try to orient myself. I wasted a lot of energy on it.

QuoteBeing thought to be something by others and by society that isn't reality.

Don't forget the mental life is also reality. It affects your life, it is real. There is the you that the world objectively sees, and the fact that inside your head, that isn't what you are. You give more power to the objective notion of reality, but what's inside your head is equally powerful, often the difference between a person choosing life or death is their mental reality - even if it's not to be seen and cannot be touched.

Define yourself however it makes you feel best. But it sounds like whichever way you go with that sort of definition, you're going to feel discontent or inadequate. How will that serve you?

Darn Kylo, you are a handsome looking man

*massive hug*

(sorry to derail)

Quote from: SailorMars1994 on April 03, 2017, 06:43:10 PM
Darn Kylo, you are a handsome looking man

*massive hug*

(sorry to derail)

Oh my, that's not me.  ;)

*blushes with embarrsment* *crap eating grin on* *sweating bullets*

Oooops

Sorry for poking my nose in here, but I just wanted to offer something that I think about often.

It's very common to hear the questions "what does being who you are mean to you?" or "what is it that defines you?"

As someone who cannot transition, my options are extremely limited. And 95% of what people go through here to be themselves are things I cannot do, personally. So how do I feel like who I am? For me it comes in the small print. Doing things to make myself feel... normal... why is that? What is it that drives that feeling? I think about that a lot. And in the end, it's the wanting that is the answer. As painful as it is (and god knows it's unbearable some days), it's that pain which confirms everything for me. It's the... not being happy with my lot. It's the not settling, and saying "Just make the best of what you have. It would be so much easier."

I cannot do that. Not because I don't want to, but because it isn't me. As much as I wish it were. And I see the same thing echoed here so often. From everyone. Men, women, and every single point between. It's easy to accept what you have. To live in a world which accepts you for what it sees at face value. But it isn't you. It just isn't. And THAT... that is what makes you feel who you are. For me. Maybe I would feel differently if everything was hunky dory and I could live as myself, with no one knowing any different. Or maybe I wouldn't feel anything. Both results would be the same, I feel.

Maybe a lot of it is self image. Or something deeper. Something you can't get away from. Something inside you that makes you feel... if not good, then normal... every time you get acknowledged for who you are. Every little thing that makes the cacophony inside your head quiet down for just a while. Something that drives the constant maelstrom inside yourself when everything isn't right.

I sometimes feel that the single moment where you feel everything is right is that moment where you don't feel anything at all. Maybe that's just me. But I can't help feeling that... being seen as myself is a "well duh" moment, and everything else is a protest against it.

"Why do you hate not feeling like yourself?" That's the question I ask myself, more often than I like to think about. Not "Why do you feel like yourself?". The first I can answer. The second... I cannot.

I've hesitated to add to this discussion because I know my opinion is not a popular one in our community but I'm going to go ahead and do it. I completely understand trying to find what exactly it is that will make you feel male. Though I didn't have the difficulty you are having with being seen and read as a man early on (it was immediate for me), I know that when I transitioned I had specific things I knew I needed to see in myself before I felt like one.. And it was 100% about my appearance and how society viewed me. I needed to be read as a man all of the time. I needed to see my face change, hear my voice drop, grow facial hair, change my body by lifting weights, etc. Without a doubt that was what I needed to feel like a man. I hope for you that you see the masculinizing effects of T eventually. I hope that you will get to feel the pure zen of being seen as a man everyday of your life no matter what you wear or how you express yourself.

I think there is a split in the trans world. There are those of us, myself included, that are more or less binary and those that have more of an existential approach of I feel male therefore I am male no matter what. And again I know this will be met with much derision but it's just not that simple to me. If it were we wouldn't have to transition at all, we could merely pronounce our gender identity and be happy and content! There are things that make us this or that. Though I feel I was meant to be male I was not born that way. So I believe I cannot in turn define myself as such. To be male I'd need to have a penis, natural testosterone, specific chromosomes and such. I do not. Those are things that make a human male. But I am a man. I can alter my body to live as one. But I can't stand next to a cis guy and say I am male as you are. I'm just not. It's not that simple.

So what you are waiting for is to FEEL LIKE A MAN. And that can be achieved in so many ways. The T may take longer for you but changes will happen. How you dress, your hair, your body language can all help you feel like a man too though. Those are attainable. And every man gets to define what that means for himself on his own terms regardless of what society says.

That was a ramble.

Quote from: CMD042414 on April 03, 2017, 08:54:15 PM
It's not that simple.

Hmm, I agree with you, which is why I define myself as a hybrid. I can't be a woman running on T, in these amounts - the body is told to start becoming male, shut down E, shut down female functions, drop voice, grow facial hair, grow muscles, etc. and that's not a 'functioning' woman, either. It ceases to look or sound distinctly female and goes as far as it can toward male that isn't stopped by limitations with body form. If a male is someone with natural T, so long as I take this thing, I have no E making me naturally continue to express female biological traits. After all, full sex and gender isn't just the X and Y's picked at conception but the maintenance of secondary sexual characteristics by ongoing production of hormones. If that stops, the person stops being a fertile male or female in the strict sense. Take a female body, fill it with male hormones continuously, and you no longer have a working female. You have female flesh and male 'fuel' and instructions running it. You have something that will begin to operate more male than female, even if not in entirety.

In that sense I'd say the end result of HRT is more male than female. The female aspect is in remission in the presence of male levels of T. It's missing a few key aspects of course, like making sperm; but weighing up, that's what I think - not forgetting not all males can make sperm and not all of them get born with perfectly-formed genitalia. So true enough - it's not that simple to call yourself a male, but also can no longer really call yourself a female either.

But I would expect others to disagree. It's a matter of what's important to a person. If definitions are important, they're important. That's what kept me from acting on transition for so damn long, though... so they're as much a hindrance as anything in my view. 

Quote from: Bacon on April 03, 2017, 05:48:18 PMFor example, let's say I want to be a famous musician.

I don't think that's a great metaphor, actually.  Being a famous musician requires there to be an audience.  It's others' regard, not your own lived experience, that makes you "famous."  I don't think that being male requires an audience.  A guy who's alone, cut off from the world, is still a guy.  If it were others' perceptions that created maleness and femaleness, than a trans man who passes 100% of the time would be more of a "real man" than a feminine cis man who is often mistaken for a woman. 

I think of "maleness" as an identity, not a consensus public opinion.  Identities start and end from within.  I don't think "I" am my body, my clothes, my possessions, or anything else that's destructible.  "I" am the sum total of the experience that began in infancy and which will end upon my death. 

Now that said, I don't think your belief that "real maleness" is conferred on you by others is at all ridiculous.  Plenty of people think that--although I'd add the caveat that I think most people see their own gender as an indisputable part of themselves, but others' gender as being debatable by public opinion.  It doesn't make a lot of sense and it isn't very kind, but that's humanity for you.  I don't think my opinion on the subject of gender is ridiculous either, or Kylo's, that trans men are "hybrids."

I'd argue that whatever opinion is "right" is simply what gets you through the night.  It makes me comfortable to believe that my identity determines my gender.  I wouldn't transition if I didn't think that.  If my mind and my body are at war, it's my mind that should "win."  I used to think that my body determined what I was.  I spent decades dysphoric and spending money on therapists, trying to change the shape of my mind to match the organ between my legs.  It didn't work, and it made me miserable.

Kylo seems content with his belief that trans men are hybrid beings.  Good on him.

Your belief that others confer "real maleness" on you seems to be making you unhappy.  Why would you do that to yourself?  Most cis people who swear up and down that anatomy alone determines femaleness and maleness judge their own gender "realness" by existential criteria.  "How do I know I'm a real man?  I dunno . . . I just . . . am.  Always have been, always will be.  What a question!"

How you decide to think about things is up to you, of course.  It just seems to me that you're making yourself unhappy for no reason.   

Quote from: Bacon on April 02, 2017, 07:11:47 PM
Thanks for the replies so far. It's good to know I'm not the only one that struggles with this concept.

I see a lot of trans guys, especially on Tumblr and such, that emphatically declare "I'm a guy" even if they are pre-everything, and refuse to acknowledge that there is anything female about them, which I find kinda crazy. One of them even was completely dolled up in a dress and makeup with no binder, nothing, looked completely female and still was tagging the pic with "ftm" and stuff. I sometimes wonder how they can be so confident about their maleness even when they seem to be doing nothing "male" at all, and here I am, actually taking T and presenting as male 100% of the time (even if I don't pass, I still always wear men's clothing, etc), and yet -I'm- the one still doubting if I can say I'm male.

I guess it all boils down to: what does it really mean to be male? We can't say it's just a feeling. Because then it becomes meaningless, doesn't it? So far, my opinion is that it HAS to be a physical thing more than anything else. Because as we all know, there are no personality traits or behaviors that are 100% male or even masculine, and there are plenty of ultra-feminine acting men that still identify as male, or ultra-masculine women that identify as female.

They're able to say "I'm a guy" most likely because they are more comfortable with themselves than you are with yourself. And that's what it comes down to. I think we all start off or perhaps keep dealing with internalised transphobia that makes us feel as though we're just a joke, that we aren't really what we feel we are etc. There is no concrete answer to what it "really" means to be male unless you simply resign yourself to accepting what it means to a large part of cis society: being born with a male reproductive system. Personally, if I resigned myself to that I would not be able to live with myself. You can consider me delusional or whatever you want, but I need to be me. At the same time I'm also perfectly happy to acknowledge that I'm not the same as a cis guy, and in that sense I do see trans guys as different than cis guys, a different kind of guy but still a guy. Being different doesn't necessarily mean you're not a guy. For me I just do what I need to do to be comfortable in my own skin. I know that being called female/woman/she etc. absolutely does not make me feel comfortable in my own skin, same with the idea of being called gender neutral or essentially anything other than male (or trans male). Those folks you're talking about are doing what makes them feel comfortable in their skin, and if that makes them feel validated as male then good on them. So its between living your life and feeling comfortable with yourself identifying as male simply because that's how you identify, or accepting that only a male reproductive system will ever make you male. I can't really see how there can be an inbetween.

Quote from: Bacon on April 02, 2017, 07:11:47 PMI do think there are differences between male and female brains, but are those differences absolute?

Probably not. If I'm honest, I tend to think that that "difference between male and female brains" thing is something lots of us try to cling to to feel more validated. Ultimately, even between cis men/women, I don't see there being a definitive difference in the way men and women think beyond what could be attributed to socialisation.

Quote from: Bacon on April 02, 2017, 07:11:47 PMI don't know, and if they're not, then it has to be about physicality more than anything else. We wouldn't transition if it wasn't about our appearance. If we really believed that male bodies and female bodies were the same (which would obviously be a delusion), then transition wouldn't even exist. Transgender PEOPLE wouldn't exist. Because a woman could act just as masculine as any man if she wants to, she could dress in men's clothing, she could take on the male gender role in society, etc...Being trans, then, HAS to be about our self-image of our bodies and faces.

I get the impression you want a neat and tidy explanation when there's not. Trans people (or the equivalent of trans people as far as the existence of people who were born with the reproductive system of one sex but living as the other sex) were living as their identified sex long before there was even the technology to "medically" transition. Was Billy Tipton a trans man? He certainly lived the majority of his life as a man without any kind of surgery nor hormones. And he certainly wasn't the only one. One of the things that helped him and others pass was that before recently female and male clothing was quite different without much cross over. It was easier to be seen as just a man with a baby face before there was as much social acceptance of queer people. Queer and trans identities are messy because human identities are messy.

Quote from: Kylo on April 03, 2017, 05:42:42 PM
People forget that it's only in this century that male and female casual wear really started to look very different, like suits and dresses. Historically in a lot of places, clothes for both genders weren't all that different, things like togas/pallas and kimonos/yutaka etc. had minimal differences. The idea of dress-like clothes on guys doesn't seem that weird to me, been to places where the men wear long dress-like outfits all the time. I suppose - I'll admit - that when I had to wear dresses as a kid, they were not uncomfortable to wear, in fact, more comfortable in many ways than pants. The problem came ironically when I wore them later that I felt very bizarre in them - very much "on display" and for whatever reason personally felt I must have looked ridiculous. I was told I didn't - but I mentally pictured a grizzly wearing a tutu and that was that, never again, lol. For those who don't mind or don't have a problem with it, more power to them.

I think the bolded part here falls once more into the category of things trans people tell themselves to try to validate ourselves. Please tell me that that was a typo and that you didn't actually mean that Italians only stopped wearing togas in every day wear in the last century :D I can't speak for East Asian nations, but in Europeans nations and most places I can think of, men's and women's clothing were quite distinct. Its only relatively recently that the kind of cross over we see in men's and women's clothes today has become acceptable on a larger scale. Its why it was easier for gender non-conforming people to pass better, in some ways, in the past than today. It was often assumed that if you had short hair, dressed in men's clothing then you'd most likely be taken as a man. Similarly if you had long hair styled in a "female" style, without evident facial hair and wore women's clothing you'd most likely be taken for a woman.

Quote from: Bacon on April 03, 2017, 05:48:18 PM
There's a difference between wanting to be a guy and actually being one though, which is kind of my whole point. As you are now, you wouldn't qualify for any male-specific activities/clubs or be treated as a guy by 99% of society.

Alright, let's go down that path then. What is the difference between "wanting" to be a guy and "being a guy"? Or maybe look at it this way, do you see trans guys as simply "wanting to be guys" or "actually guys" because that's how we identify? Were we born as we are or do we become guys? I suspect the answer is different from person to person. As a young kid I always secretly considered myself a guy, I just didn't tell anyone for fear of being humiliated. But that didn't stop me from preferring boy's clothing (and luckily I had a mother who was previously a tom boy herself so she was pretty accommodating), collecting hockey cards, playing sports, and preferring to hang out with other boys. And maybe that's where things might come clearer for you. For me I don't think its ever been about "wanting" to be a guy. If anything its always been a journey toward wanting to be myself, feeling comfortable as myself, and that self could never feel comfortable being identified as female. Honestly even the pain of being mispronouned, for me, is better than the pain of trying to adopt a female identity. Even the physical changes I have taken have been more for myself and my own feeling of comfort with myself than simply for the sake of passing. I had top surgery around five years ago now and that made an astronomical difference in my ability to feel comfortable in my own skin. I'm still not on hormones though but I haven't allowed that to stop me from living my life as a guy. So there comes that comfort thing again, and perhaps that's what you need to learn for yourself.

About the activities/clubs thing. The good thing about times changing is that gender segregated spaces are becoming more accepting of trans people. Many male spaces are lagging behind female spaces for that, yes, but short of competing in professional sports/levels leading to professional sports technically trans people now have the right to belong to clubs/activities for the gender they identify as. Here in Ontario, for example, its also technically illegal to discriminate against trans people according to our provincial human rights code.

Quote from: Bacon on April 03, 2017, 05:48:18 PM
Now maybe it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, and we should all just say "screw it" and do whatever we want, because the world is absurd and will end in another few billion years anyway. But that doesn't really make it easier for me to do the mental gymnastics required to arrive at the conclusion that I already -am- male or that I ever truly will be.

So maybe I'll have to settle for something else. Like acknowledging that I'm a woman that, for whatever reason, would rather look like and live as a man even if I'm not one. But this would probably lead to the same feelings of being a fraud. Being thought to be something by others and by society that isn't reality.

If that's what you feel you need to do, dude, that's up to you. Personally I wouldn't be able to live like that. Even as a kid when I would never mention feeling male to anyone, at least it was something I felt I "knew" within myself. So personally I living a life where I consider myself a woman living as a man would be one that goes against every instinct I've ever had. But again, we all need to do what makes sense to us and what makes us feel comfortable. So if you do feel like a woman living as a man, more power to you. If not, do yourself a favour and challenge yourself to start feeling comfortable with who you are instead of being so focused on what others will think or say. We only have one life, better not to waste it giving in to our fears.

Quote from: Berserk on April 04, 2017, 08:23:10 AM
I think the bolded part here falls once more into the category of things trans people tell themselves to try to validate ourselves.

My point was directed at Flying Lemur about the men wearing dresses taboo. Because yes, historically, men have worn things that resembled dresses and skirts, all over the place. Society's view on what is manly attire is fickle.

QuotePlease tell me that that was a typo and that you didn't actually mean that Italians only stopped wearing togas in every day wear in the last century :D

I said historically. As in ancient culture.

QuoteI can't speak for East Asian nations, but in Europeans nations and most places I can think of, men's and women's clothing were quite distinct. Its only relatively recently that the kind of cross over we see in men's and women's clothes today has become acceptable on a larger scale. Its why it was easier for gender non-conforming people to pass better, in some ways, in the past than today. It was often assumed that if you had short hair, dressed in men's clothing then you'd most likely be taken as a man. Similarly if you had long hair styled in a "female" style, without evident facial hair and wore women's clothing you'd most likely be taken for a woman.

Not sure what you are arguing here with me for. That's what I implied, in the past it was easier in some places, and plenty of cultures accepted long hair on both men and women. I would not be surprised if the change in styles the last few centuries was a result of the practicality of people being able to get regular haircuts and to take professions that didn't require backbreaking work. They could afford to present more differently with time and money and new living conditions. I believe Flying Lemur got my gist. 

Yeah, Kylo's comments on clothing history were in response to me saying I was wearing a dress.  I have a streak of gender ****ery in me and I find it amusing to do things I'm not supposed to do. 

Carry on with the discussion about the criteria we use to decide who is a "real man" though.  It's very interesting. 

I also wanted to add an asterisk to what I posted above: people also often add roles and values to their descriptions of why they feel they should qualify as a certain gender: "I'm a man because I've always felt male.  I work hard to care for and protect my family, and I try to always do what's right."  There probably are cis guys who would say, "I'm a man because I have a penis," but I think a lot of people would be dissatisfied with such a reductionist reply.

Quote from: Kylo on April 04, 2017, 11:09:07 AM
My point was directed at Flying Lemur about the men wearing dresses taboo. Because yes, historically, men have worn things that resembled dresses and skirts, all over the place. Society's view on what is manly attire is fickle.

I said historically. As in ancient culture.


Not sure what you are arguing here with me for. That's what I implied, in the past it was easier in some places, and plenty of cultures accepted long hair on both men and women. I would not be surprised if the change in styles the last few centuries was a result of the practicality of people being able to get regular haircuts and to take professions that didn't require backbreaking work. They could afford to present more differently with time and money and new living conditions. I believe Flying Lemur got my gist.

I'm not sure why you see this as an "argument" rather than a discussion. No hostile intents on my end. Just to clear confusion, I'll requote what you wrote:

"People forget that it's only in this century that male and female casual wear really started to look very different, like suits and dresses. Historically in a lot of places, clothes for both genders weren't all that different, things like togas/pallas and kimonos/yutaka etc. had minimal differences. The idea of dress-like clothes on guys doesn't seem that weird to me, been to places where the men wear long dress-like outfits all the time."

It made the rest to sound as though you were referring to the last century. Although the whole "suits and dresses" thing is also not true regardless. The equivalents of "suits and dresses" have existed for centuries now, it's not a change that occurred in the last century. On top of that, yes certain skirt (predominantly) or dress-like attire did/does exist among men, I come from such a culture myself (Greek). However, it's also worth nothing that any "skirt-like" wear worn by men in those cultures was still distinct from women's clothing. That's an important distinction to make because otherwise it sounds as though gendered clothing simply didn't exist just because a skirt or dress-like garment exists/existed for men. A fustanella in Greek culture or kilt in Scottish culture do resemble women's skirts, but those specific skirts would never be worn by women in their respective cultures.

Its not simply about nitpicking, it's just that I notice in the trans community we often adopt certain things as "facts" without looking at the whole truth, overexaggerate the prevalence of certain things. Then that gets perpetuated and people seem to call it truth or frequent occurrence only because it acts as a "tool" for us to combat modern transphobia and to help us gain a better understanding of our own identities and where we fit. The things is, if we're going to do that we should be sure that it's based on fact and not misrepresentation, otherwise we can easily be caught out by those in cis society who are only looking for more reasons to deny trans identity as valid in anyway.

Again to be clear, is this me saying that there is something wrong with men (cis or trans) wearing conventionally female dresses? No. Hell most drag queens around here are cis men who don't crossdress outside their drag personas. Is gendered wear fickle as you call it, yep I agree with that too. This was basically just a response as far as the "well kilts exist so..." thing doesn't really ad up when you look at cultural context. That's it, that's all. And again, not meant as being argumentative, from my perspective it's just a discussion.

Quote from: Berserk on April 04, 2017, 02:30:39 PMThat's it, that's all. And again, not meant as being argumentative, from my perspective it's just a discussion.

Sounds like you suggest I misrepresent facts and truth because I say fashion is changeable. I never said gendered clothing wasn't a thing at any point.

What are you worried about?

Quote from: Berserk on April 04, 2017, 08:23:10 AM
They're able to say "I'm a guy" most likely because they are more comfortable with themselves than you are with yourself.

More comfortable in their delusions, maybe. Or just girls that think it's trendy or somehow empowering to say they're guys when they aren't and aren't even trying to live or look like them. Maleness and femaleness will cease to have meaning at all if ANYONE can say they are either without even looking the part.

There is nothing anyone can say that will convince me that maleness and femaleness are not directly, inextricably connected to physicality. When people say that gender and sex shouldn't be conflated, it's pure nonsense. A trans man wouldn't say he identifies with the male gender unless he was thinking of wanting the body of the male sex, or the characteristics associated with the male sex. Gender and sex may not be the same but they have to be extremely closely linked or else maleness and femaleness lose all their meaning entirely. My current opinion is that "gender" is the "sex" you want to be and "sex" is the "sex" you actually are.

QuoteAt the same time I'm also perfectly happy to acknowledge that I'm not the same as a cis guy, and in that sense I do see trans guys as different than cis guys, a different kind of guy but still a guy. Being different doesn't necessarily mean you're not a guy.

That's good but you're one of the few trans guys I've met that actually acknowledge that we're not the same as cis guys. Many deny that they are female at all, which doesn't make any sense.

QuoteThose folks you're talking about are doing what makes them feel comfortable in their skin, and if that makes them feel validated as male then good on them.

I think these types of people have done more harm than good for the trans community. Many of them are just teenage girls that are playing around with labels to feel different and unique. They think that they can suddenly be men, the holy grail!, as long as they say they are. If society thought we were jokes before, they have much more reason to think it now, with people identifying as demiboys or demigirls or non-binary or insisting on being called he/him even when they present 100% female, etc.

That's why I'm currently in favor of a more honest, logical, realistic, non-delusional approach. I think that I could support other trans men more, as well as myself, if we all just acknowledged the reality of the situation: we're women that want to be men. To deny that we're women, to deny that we're female, to insist that we are 100% male and just as male as any cis guy...to me, it absolutely borders on (if not flat-out characterizes) delusional insanity.

There MUST be a logical basis for our claims. Whether it's the male brain thing, or having a male self-image, whatever. To say we "feel" male doesn't cut it. There is no such thing as feeling male. Feeling stereotypically masculine? Sure. Again, not the same thing as being male. There are many, many women that feel more masculine than feminine. They're still not male.

So let's take an extremely masculine woman and a feminine pre-everything trans man. The woman likes repairing cars, cutting wood, is the strong and silent type, speaks in a flat tone of voice, sees the world logically, hates shopping, etc. The feminine pre-everything trans man likes working with children, hates getting dirty, chats endlessly with friends, loves buying clothes, and is extremely sensitive and emotional.

How can we say that the second one is male? Where's the basis for it? This is a person that operates on E, has a totally female body, female personality, female behaviors, female interests...

And so how can that person say "I'm a guy"?

It must be about the physical body this person wants. What else COULD it be about?

But then it comes back to "wants" vs "HAS". I don't believe it's enough to just want something and claim you already have it when you don't.

Could I say I'm a blond even though I'm a brunette and haven't dyed my hair? Maybe I want to dye it. Maybe after I do, I could say I'm blond. But right now? Can I say I'm a blond even though my hair is clearly brown?

QuoteProbably not. If I'm honest, I tend to think that that "difference between male and female brains" thing is something lots of us try to cling to to feel more validated. Ultimately, even between cis men/women, I don't see there being a definitive difference in the way men and women think beyond what could be attributed to socialisation.

I definitely disagree. Pretty much all the men and women I've ever known act and think in different ways, many of which seem hard-wired. These are men and women from different cultures, backgrounds, upbringings, etc. And if socialization were the only factor, then all of us trans men would think and act more femininely than we naturally do, because that's how we were raised and socialized. Instead, we resist that socialization because our brains are telling us differently.

But if you don't think there are differences in male and female brains, are you saying that you have a female brain and a female body but are a male? If so, if you think you have a female brain, then why do you think you would prefer to have a male body?

QuoteAlright, let's go down that path then. What is the difference between "wanting" to be a guy and "being a guy"? Or maybe look at it this way, do you see trans guys as simply "wanting to be guys" or "actually guys" because that's how we identify?

I see trans guys as women that want to be guys. Biologically speaking, there is no way that trans guys are already actually guys, and to say otherwise is, again, delusional. Now if we were able to transition fully--hypothetically speaking, let's say that we were able to take T and it would magically remove our breasts, close our vaginas, and give us working penises--then hey, I'd be fine with FULLY TRANSITIONED trans guys saying they're guys. But that's not reality and probably never will be.

QuoteWere we born as we are or do we become guys? I suspect the answer is different from person to person. As a young kid I always secretly considered myself a guy,

What does it mean to consider yourself a guy though? You knew you didn't have a penis...

So you considered yourself a "person with a penis" even though you knew you didn't have one?

QuoteI just didn't tell anyone for fear of being humiliated. But that didn't stop me from preferring boy's clothing (and luckily I had a mother who was previously a tom boy herself so she was pretty accommodating), collecting hockey cards, playing sports, and preferring to hang out with other boys.

Again, these are all things that many masculine women can relate to, and even some feminine women.

QuoteI had top surgery around five years ago now and that made an astronomical difference in my ability to feel comfortable in my own skin. I'm still not on hormones though but I haven't allowed that to stop me from living my life as a guy. So there comes that comfort thing again, and perhaps that's what you need to learn for yourself.

And what does it mean to live your life as a guy? It must be about being seen and treated by others as a guy. Otherwise, what does it mean? You go home at night and still know you have a vagina and almost certainly a feminine body besides not having breasts since you're not on T. There are women that have had mastectomies. They're not living their lives as guys though.

Quote
About the activities/clubs thing. The good thing about times changing is that gender segregated spaces are becoming more accepting of trans people. Many male spaces are lagging behind female spaces for that, yes, but short of competing in professional sports/levels leading to professional sports technically trans people now have the right to belong to clubs/activities for the gender they identify as.

I don't think this is a good thing. There should be some benchmarks that trans people have to meet in order to belong to single-sex clubs or sports; for example, one year on hormones. How annoying would it be to be a football team of cis guys, for example, that suddenly have to welcome a girl and act as if she's one of them. Suddenly they'd have to accommodate her weaknesses, they wouldn't be able to participate in guy talk anymore, they'd censor their speech, the whole group dynamic would change. Same for a group of women that have to welcome a guy. I think there is value in sex-separated organizations that will be taken away if everything becomes mixed gender.

QuoteSo if you do feel like a woman living as a man, more power to you.

Well, how can I not? How can any of us not? We -are- women living as men. No, I don't want to identify as a woman, but I kinda HAVE to, seeing as I have breasts, a vagina, a uterus, curves, no penis, etc. Those are the characteristics of a woman. I don't get how any of us can deny that.

Yes, it hurts to think of myself as a woman but at least it's REAL. At least it's honest. It's acknowledging the truth, which is a painful truth, but still the truth: I was born with a female body and am now changing it to become more masculine. I still doubt if I'll ever be able to make it "male" though.

QuoteIf not, do yourself a favour and challenge yourself to start feeling comfortable with who you are instead of being so focused on what others will think or say. We only have one life, better not to waste it giving in to our fears.

It has nothing to do with what others think or say though. If the entire world started reading me as male TOMORROW, it wouldn't change the fact that I know I'm not. I'd still have to be the one to go home, take off my clothes, and acknowledge that I don't have a male body, and that my life as a man is merely a performance.

Quote from: The Flying LemurIf it were others' perceptions that created maleness and femaleness, than a trans man who passes 100% of the time would be more of a "real man" than a feminine cis man who is often mistaken for a woman.

A trans man that passes 100% of the time COULD be more of a "real man" when it comes to how he's treated in society. But the feminine cis man will always know he's more of a "real man" when it comes to biological reality.

QuoteI think of "maleness" as an identity, not a consensus public opinion.  Identities start and end from within.  I don't think "I" am my body, my clothes, my possessions, or anything else that's destructible.  "I" am the sum total of the experience that began in infancy and which will end upon my death. 

But what does that identity mean? When you say "I'm male", what on earth are you referring to if NOT your body?

QuoteYour belief that others confer "real maleness" on you seems to be making you unhappy.  Why would you do that to yourself?

It's not that I believe that others confer it on me. It's my own perception, my own self-knowledge that I don't have the parts that can make me a "real male".

And why would I make myself unhappy like this? Because I believe so strongly in truth, reality, objectiveness, and logic. I can't be truly happy if I believe how I'm living my life, the things I say about myself, the way people treat me, etc are based in delusion and lie. I WISH I could. Believe me, I wish I could be one of those people that just bases everything off their feelings and looks for no objective justification and lives in a merry land of rainbows, but that's not me.

QuoteMost cis people who swear up and down that anatomy alone determines femaleness and maleness judge their own gender "realness" by existential criteria.  "How do I know I'm a real man?  I dunno . . . I just . . . am.  Always have been, always will be.  What a question!"

If they answer like that, that's only because they're not even considering that the biological facts are being questioned. They know they're male because they have penises, testes which produce testosterone and make them grow up as boys, turn into men, etc. That's all taken for granted, so then they start looking for more existential criteria.

Quotejust acknowledged the reality of the situation: we're women that want to be men.

Some of them want to be men. I don't recall ever wanting to be a man. Far as I could see in my family, men got the short end of the stick and were expected to do almost everything, deal with anything, and have a smile on their face about it. Nothing about being male appeals so much I'd go through any of this crap on a whim. But there are people who do just want to play around, I suppose. Some say they give us a bad name and belittle our situations. But if you had to explain this to a cis person - most people - you think they're going to understand a perspective of seeking maleness while insisting you're female? They wouldn't get it.

QuoteTo deny that we're women, to deny that we're female, to insist that we are 100% male and just as male as any cis guy...to me, it absolutely borders on (if not flat-out characterizes) delusional insanity.

Yeah. I wouldn't make that claim to a doctor or a scientist. But still, serves no purpose in everyday life to the guy on the street laboring the point so hard. Better they not know at all than be fed the existential details. Might do you good, but probably not anyone else.

But to go back some...

Now you've set down your beliefs, do you think you'll ever feel male? That's not going to come, is it, since you're fundamentally female. Are you waiting to feel an approximation? Or to just feel "different"? If you haven't felt it already, will you ever? And if you do, will you pass it off as self delusion?

Just out of curiosity, Bacon, if you're 100% sure that anatomy is destiny, why bother to transition?  If the body is ascendant and you will always, always be female, then why not work at changing your thoughts and feelings to match your physical self?  There are therapists who will attempt to accomplish that.  Lord knows I've paid some of them.  It didn't work, but I tried.       

Probably one of the reasons why I will never fit in the trans community is because I fail to see the importance of the body. I understand that it modifies our confidence, and it's allright if people want to change their bodies to feel better about themselves. But that should be the reason, to feel better about yourself. You are changing your body FOR YOURSELF, not for anyone else, and certainly not for society. If you feel fine without changing your body or you find other ways around the issue, so be it, nothing wrong with that either.

If being male and female is all about sex organs, then virgin men and women would be exactly the same. Sure, hormones can alter how we feel... ultimately other things can as well. The problem is the expectations society puts on people for having a certain body. Feeling like a man is feeling that the expectations that are usually attributed to people with a certain body, fit us. Do we need to have a certain body for that? not really. Of course, the expectation of being able to make someone pregnant won't happen. So what? if you have a uterus and don't get pregnant for whatever reason, the expectation society puts on you for having a uterus won't happen either.
Feeling that we fit expectations or not is a feeling. Only the person themselves know how they feel. If someone says they are male but acts in a way I consider feminine I have two options 1) Acknowledge what they say and treat them accordingly (which in reality is just using a different pronoun and name, I treat people by the way I feel about them, not to what sex or gender they are) 2) Being stubborn and keep using their biological sex pronoun. I don't see how the second option would be beneficial for anyone. What point would I be trying to prove by doing that? "You're not a real man?", in the end... who cares? You can say you are whoever you want, whether it's a man, a timelord or a cat, I' m not going to convince you of reality, since reality itself is subjective, I will treat you by how you are as a person and the things you do, which could be related to who you say you are, or not.

Do I go around telling people "Hey, I' m male"? No, I just am the way I am, people can tell. If they can't or they don't want to listen, I' m not going to bother with them, it's their problem, not mine, and it's exhausting trying to convince people who decide on being blind and deaf. I feel a bit sorry for the people who misgender me, since they can't see beneath the surface. At the same time, I raise my esteem for the people who gender me correctly, since they can perceive beyond it. I do not tell anyone what pronouns to use or what gender I am except I' m especifically asked.

If someone feels then that they are not a real man because they don't have a penis/ they don't have children/they don't have muscles/ a girlfriend/ they are a capricorn. Well, probably nothing I say will convince them otherwise, but I would encourage them to explore their psyque better and stop torturing themselves with what they think they are not and instead focus on what they think they are or in what they can realistically become in their expectations. If someone tells me that they are a man but they don't have a penis/children/muscles/a girlfriend/ are a capricorn, and that's in contradiction with my beliefs of what a man is, then it is in no way constructive to express those concerns to them.

Is being a man just about feeling like one? I think it's also experiencing life as one. And you cannot do that in a vacuum. We are all part of a larger societal framework. If you identify as a man but do not appear to be a man, do you still expect to be able to go to male spaces? If so then it is not simply about how one feels. I won't have a penis until next year and no, I cannot reproduce but I without look and sound like a dude. As such I am able to live freely as one.

Think of any other aspect of identity. Take race. I'm black. There's this lady named Rachel Dolezal who for years had been telling people she's​ black. She is actually white. But she feels like a black woman. So she took steps to look like one. No one had a clue until her story was revealed by her parents. Now what if she told folks she identifies as a black woman but did not change her hair or tan her skin? Is that enough? Can you walk through life and just declare yourself as an identity that you aren't? Where is the line drawn? I don't know the answer. I have no right to answer that for anyone. It's all very complicated.

I used Rachel Dolezal as an example that is similar but has many differences, I'm aware. I know someone is going to take umbrage with that.

Quote from: CMD042414 on April 05, 2017, 06:32:42 AM
Is being a man just about feeling like one? I think it's also experiencing life as one. And you cannot do that in a vacuum. We are all part of a larger societal framework. If you identify as a man but do not appear to be a man, do you still expect to be able to go to male spaces? If so then it is not simply about how one feels. I won't have a penis until next year and no, I cannot reproduce but I without look and sound like a dude. As such I am able to live freely as one.

So far I haven't been secluded from doing anything I wanted to do, I' m not taking hormones or doing anything. As far as "male spaces" are concerned, I can only really think of bathrooms and locker rooms. I see no difference in my life for using the female bathrooms and locker rooms, although I do understand it would be awkward if I was taking hormones, and even without taking them, I get yelled at or corrected sometimes for using the girl's bathroom. I am, therefore, pro a gender neutral bathroom, as I' m pro gender neutral everything really. Dividing bathrooms and locker rooms by gender for safety reasons just assume that everyone is straight. As for showers/locker rooms, I don't think people should shower together, no matter what gender or sex they are, that's just... weird. There should be cubicles for everyone.
As for other male spaces, like the boy scouts for example, they should become mixed, like in other countries, I don't see the need to divide them by gender. In Argentina it's just "Scouts of Argentina", boys and girls are together.
I really don't care how people look, honestly, I only care how I feel about them, which is mainly influenced by how they act. If someone is Chinese but wants to fight for Argentina and make it a better country, why should I be against it? How is stating "No, you are Chinese, you can't" beneficial for anyone? If they feel they belong to our team it's more constructive to let them be than to segregate them.

...We could start talking about people who identify as dragons and wolves, which I am not going to do as it doesn't belong here, but the trans phenomenon does have some physical scientific evidence in hormone expression and brain structure to support the idea it's a problem with a physical origin, and only "mental" in the sense it is "felt" in the brain rather than being some visible ailment of an external body part. It's not just a "feeling" if it is proven to have cause of some kind in genes, hormonal imbalances or brain structure, is it?

I do think single use, gender neutral everything should be a standard for bathrooms, changing areas, showers etc. It's well past time to do that.

But it feels like the public consensus is moving the opposite way. Lots of people out there wanting to label men as inherently sexist, born rapists. As long as they've got people believing that, they'll demand more segregation in bathrooms and special "safe spaces" for women away from men. Not many people seem keen on the idea of neutral anything.

I noticed the OP made the topic further down the page called "internalized transphobia" and reading back over the opening post for that it sounds like your problem is exactly the same still - you don't want to believe you're anything but female, and we do not have the right to call ourselves men. That's your firm belief that you are actively choosing to believe over anything else. And you're waiting to feel male? That does not make much sense to me.

We can't really help you. The problem is being caused in no small part by your own perspective and unwillingness to budge from it, it seems. Some people would suggest seeing a therapist but I know this one has to come from inside yourself and your own philosophy, if any change is going to happen. Either that, or learn to stomach your own philosophy that you are a woman 'playing' a man?

Quote from: Kylo on April 05, 2017, 09:35:34 PM
I noticed the OP made the topic further down the page called "internalized transphobia" and reading back over the opening post for that it sounds like your problem is exactly the same still - you don't want to believe you're anything but female, and we do not have the right to call ourselves men. That's your firm belief that you are actively choosing to believe over anything else. And you're waiting to feel male? That does not make much sense to me.

We can't really help you. The problem is being caused in no small part by your own perspective and unwillingness to budge from it, it seems. Some people would suggest seeing a therapist but I know this one has to come from inside yourself and your own philosophy, if any change is going to happen. Either that, or learn to stomach your own philosophy that you are a woman 'playing' a man?

^ Thank you. Thank you x 39828209440728473.
I remember that old post and then I saw this one pop up. A ton of helpful things have been posted both in this thread and the other one and the ongoing problem is that you're wholly unwilling to listen or alter your current perspective in any way.

You have one of two options:
1. Continue feeling like a woman playing 'pretend'.
2. Open your ears, listen, realign your perception and possibly derive some enjoyment from your existence.

Nothing anyone has said to you has been met with anything but counteraction. You're completely closed off because you want to be in that familiar headspace. I feel for you because that has to be a ****** place to be, but you've got to open your mind a bit.
This merry-go-round of 'let's present a question and then violently deflect every helpful response' isn't really doing anything for anyone.

Quote from: Bacon on April 03, 2017, 05:48:18 PM
There's a difference between wanting to be a guy and actually being one though, which is kind of my whole point. As you are now, you wouldn't qualify for any male-specific activities/clubs or be treated as a guy by 99% of society.

Same thing could be said for many masculine women though.

Same thing could be said for many masculine women.

See above.

See above.

This to me at least suggests that you're trans, but again, there must be a difference between wanting to be something and actually being something.

For example, let's say I want to be a famous musician. I could say that musicians seem to get along well with me and invite me into their inner circle. That as a preschooler, I gravitated toward musical activities. That I worshipped rock stars. That I would have dreams of myself playing huge, sold-out shows. Etc.

Does all that make me a famous musician? Nope. Obviously not. It just means that I want to be one. There are certain criteria that I'd have to meet to be considered a famous musician: I'd have to actually sell records and be popular enough that many people know my name. Since I don't meet those criteria, I can't in good conscience say I'm a famous musician, and if I did, I'd be considered totally delusional.

Why is it that gender is different?

All definitions of "male" are ones that we cannot claim:

"Male, which is applied to plants and animals as well as to human beings, is a biological or physiological descriptor, classifying individuals on the basis of their potential or actual ability to inseminate in bisexual reproduction."

"A person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence."

"An organism of the sex that normally produces a sperm cell or male gamete."

We have no claim to any of these...

Now maybe it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, and we should all just say "screw it" and do whatever we want, because the world is absurd and will end in another few billion years anyway. But that doesn't really make it easier for me to do the mental gymnastics required to arrive at the conclusion that I already -am- male or that I ever truly will be.

So maybe I'll have to settle for something else. Like acknowledging that I'm a woman that, for whatever reason, would rather look like and live as a man even if I'm not one. But this would probably lead to the same feelings of being a fraud. Being thought to be something by others and by society that isn't reality.

This topic went crazy I hadnt the chance to read the second page

but regarding the quote of what makes plants, animals, etc. physiologically male, you do realize a lot of them still exist that are anomalies, bizarre chromosomal, hormonal, genital, etc. structures exist where the body doesnt work in perfect harmony to portray a male or female animal, overall those things working together give you a population where the majority of species are male or female, but animals to exist that appear male or appear female despite chromosomal evidence that they are not (female deer will sometimes grow antlers, female lions will sometimes grow manes)

Maybe they will still be "female", but they wont look it, and they may even not behave it. That is what being transgender is.

Call it what you want, females pretending to be males, males born as females, whatever. It shouldntatter though, we're people in the end. We are people. You shouldnt be forced into these harmful feelings to please everyone else, you have the right to feel comfort, if it's pretending to be or looking like or being a male then that's part of your rights as a person

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PM
More comfortable in their delusions, maybe. Or just girls that think it's trendy or somehow empowering to say they're guys when they aren't and aren't even trying to live or look like them. Maleness and femaleness will cease to have meaning at all if ANYONE can say they are either without even looking the part.

There is nothing anyone can say that will convince me that maleness and femaleness are not directly, inextricably connected to physicality. When people say that gender and sex shouldn't be conflated, it's pure nonsense. A trans man wouldn't say he identifies with the male gender unless he was thinking of wanting the body of the male sex, or the characteristics associated with the male sex. Gender and sex may not be the same but they have to be extremely closely linked or else maleness and femaleness lose all their meaning entirely. My current opinion is that "gender" is the "sex" you want to be and "sex" is the "sex" you actually are.

That's good but you're one of the few trans guys I've met that actually acknowledge that we're not the same as cis guys. Many deny that they are female at all, which doesn't make any sense.

I think these types of people have done more harm than good for the trans community. Many of them are just teenage girls that are playing around with labels to feel different and unique. They think that they can suddenly be men, the holy grail!, as long as they say they are. If society thought we were jokes before, they have much more reason to think it now, with people identifying as demiboys or demigirls or non-binary or insisting on being called he/him even when they present 100% female, etc.

That's why I'm currently in favor of a more honest, logical, realistic, non-delusional approach. I think that I could support other trans men more, as well as myself, if we all just acknowledged the reality of the situation: we're women that want to be men. To deny that we're women, to deny that we're female, to insist that we are 100% male and just as male as any cis guy...to me, it absolutely borders on (if not flat-out characterizes) delusional insanity.

There MUST be a logical basis for our claims. Whether it's the male brain thing, or having a male self-image, whatever. To say we "feel" male doesn't cut it. There is no such thing as feeling male. Feeling stereotypically masculine? Sure. Again, not the same thing as being male. There are many, many women that feel more masculine than feminine. They're still not male.



I definitely disagree. Pretty much all the men and women I've ever known act and think in different ways, many of which seem hard-wired. These are men and women from different cultures, backgrounds, upbringings, etc. And if socialization were the only factor, then all of us trans men would think and act more femininely than we naturally do, because that's how we were raised and socialized. Instead, we resist that socialization because our brains are telling us differently.

As unpopular as it is, I absolutely agree with a lot of your points. I am male, but I'm well aware I am biologically female. In day to day life I call myself male because that is now how I look, what people see, how I act, how I feel. Sometimes I wonder if I had to go through the trouble of people thinking I was a delusional crazy to be this way, and the answer is Im not sure anymore. Im just doing what gives me the most comfort, and people who dont know me see what I am, and people who truly know me know the kind of comfort I have being the way I am...I am not trying to be delusional, I am just being myself.

I do especially agree with you that some transtrenders take on the label of trans, do nothing in physical presentation and therefore it is a meaningless word...it seems very off to me. It may be harmful, but at the same time it's best to maybe gently explain it to them in a logical approach, and/or let them be to figure themselves out on their own. I think to constitute as transgender one must feel some type of dysphoria and wish to change. In the end, it's Poe's law, you dont know who is and isnt a "real" transgender, kids will be kids and maybe they'll grow up and understand themselves more, as long as they are given facts and information to learn by. Whatever they want to call themselves might just be words, maybe they'll just end up being the same person in the end....whatever crazy labels or physical attributes they have.


As for male and female brains, whether they are the same or different. I think most are vaguely different, although at the same time there are still many atypical males and females, so it's hard to draw a line somewhere, there may be an average but there certainly isnt any overall absolutes.

Quote from: Kylo on April 05, 2017, 04:41:39 PM
But it feels like the public consensus is moving the opposite way. Lots of people out there wanting to label men as inherently sexist, born rapists. As long as they've got people believing that, they'll demand more segregation in bathrooms and special "safe spaces" for women away from men. Not many people seem keen on the idea of neutral anything.

So this grinds my gears. There is an absolute issue with the way bio men express themselves sexually. Just gonna say it. Rape, harrassment, assault, revenge porn, online threats, etc all are 90% bio male driven. Worldwide men are by and large the biggest threat to women (and children). Just a fact. Trafficking wouldn't exist if there were no men. Too many men use their size and penis as a weapon. It's a real, serious problem and I think women have AMPLE evidence to want to protect themselves. And I say this as someone who is now seen as part of the problem. Not to mention male victims. I don't know if it's inherent or leaned but it's in my opinion one of the biggest issues facing the world.

Where are you getting the 90% from.

Ah, this assuming the world would be some comparative heaven if men weren't in it doesn't wash with me. I say this as someone with personal experience of women being just as despicable, if not more so, than men because they largely got away with their transgressions and continued them. Crime stats have shown a problem in defining rape that leaves sexual assault (rape) by women misrepresented, but they aren't that far behind. It's been admitted by judges they have a hard time bringing themselves to punish women found guilty of serious crimes equally to men and the police arrest based on a model assuming the guilt of a man over a woman at a crime scene. Until the system is fair, you aren't even going to get an accurate picture of what women are capable of.

But they are certainly capable of violence, rape and murder. I've seen it. And it isn't because some man is making them do it. They are just as competent in exacting evil if they want to. Anyone who thinks otherwise is extremely naive.

How many men do you know who are rapists, violent toward women and children and threaten harassment or revenge. Are most of the guys you know scumbags of this kind? Or is it more likely that no, the majority of men are not actually monsters who belong in prison.

I'm aware how men express themselves sexually, and they are not all the same - was every guy I encountered practically slapping me in the face with "it"? Not at all. Sure, one or two in my time did not know where the line was, and they soon found out. But that's one or two. Out of the many hundreds or thousands of men I've met and interacted with in life. And there were women who acted inappropriately too, only they were even less aware of boundaries... probably because few people even believe a woman can force herself on someone. Should I tar every one of them who knows how to behave with the brush of the few who don't? Because if you're not going to do that for all women because of the bad women that exist, why should you do it for men.

Yes, "men" do commit crime in the world and get recorded as arrested and convicted of it more than women. Still not nearly the majority of men in the world are doing it. If this were the case in my past life I would have been avoiding all men, shrinking in fear every time I passed by a male human being. Is that the case for you and most other people? From what I see, that is not what most other people are doing either.

Quote from: Kylo on April 06, 2017, 02:55:19 PM
Where are you getting the 90% from.

Ah, this assuming the world would be some comparative heaven if men weren't in it doesn't wash with me. I say this as someone with personal experience of women being just as despicable, if not more so, than men because they largely got away with their transgressions and continued them. Crime stats have shown a problem in defining rape that leaves sexual assault (rape) by women misrepresented, but they aren't that far behind. It's been admitted by judges they have a hard time bringing themselves to punish women found guilty of serious crimes equally to men and the police arrest based on a model assuming the guilt of a man over a woman at a crime scene. Until the system is fair, you aren't even going to get an accurate picture of what women are capable of.

But they are certainly capable of violence, rape and murder. I've seen it. And it isn't because some man is making them do it. They are just as competent in exacting evil if they want to. Anyone who thinks otherwise is extremely naive.

How many men do you know who are rapists, violent toward women and children and threaten harassment or revenge. Are most of the guys you know scumbags of this kind? Or is it more likely that no, the majority of men are not actually monsters who belong in prison.

I'm aware how men express themselves sexually, and they are not all the same - was every guy I encountered practically slapping me in the face with "it"? Not at all. Sure, one or two in my time did not know where the line was, and they soon found out. But that's one or two. Out of the many hundreds or thousands of men I've met and interacted with in life. And there were women who acted inappropriately too, only they were even less aware of boundaries... probably because few people even believe a woman can force herself on someone. Should I tar every one of them who knows how to behave with the brush of the few who don't? Because if you're not going to do that for all women because of the bad women that exist, why should you do it for men.

Yes, "men" do commit crime in the world and get recorded as arrested and convicted of it more than women. Still not nearly the majority of men in the world are doing it. If this were the case in my past life I would have been avoiding all men, shrinking in fear every time I passed by a male human being. Is that the case for you and most other people? From what I see, that is not what most other people are doing either.

I don't know any racists but there definitely are a s**t ton of them. I'm​ a hetero man, formerly a "lesbian" so I've know a lot of women over my almost 36 years. The amount that have been sexually abused by a man is...disgraceful. My older sister included. It's not just the abusers it's the cavalier attitude and the simpatico that too many men have with sexual misbehavior from men. Like I said prostitution, sex trafficking literally would not exist if not for the sexual behavior of men. It just would not, man. Millions of women and children sold into it globally, annually. No way around it. As a man who has relationships with women I see what happens. And I see the effects.

And you really honestly believe women commit acts of rape and sexual abuse as much as men?

OP, totally derailed your topic. My sincere apologies!

Quote from: CMD042414 on April 06, 2017, 04:26:50 PM
And you really honestly believe women commit acts of rape and sexual abuse as much as men?

I said they aren't far behind, if you go look into the statistics. They have a way of representing rape with a penis as 'different' from rape with an object or forced envelopment though, which they often do not even call "rape" (though it technically is) so if the whim takes you to go delving for those numbers you should be aware of it. You have to go looking for cases of various designations of "sexual assault" by women instead, since some countries do not even record women as capable of penetrative rape with an object or forcing themselves on a person. In the worst case scenarios, a woman is not even thought of as capable of committing a sex assault of any kind, and so it isn't even logged.

Sex trafficking? Not beyond women to be involved in the selling of women too. Just like it's mostly female relatives who endorse and perform illegal female genital mutilations, women are not always "looking out for women". Sometimes they are absolutely complicit in acts of selling their fellow women off as brides, subjugating them and mutilating them. If people weren't being sold for sex, they'd be sold for something else, and not just by men, but by anyone low enough with something to gain. Female pimps are not a rarity, running houses of prostitution is no less exploitative. Not a rare thing to read in the UK news of females in court for plying underage girls with drink and drugs into prostitution. But I suppose a man must have 'made' them do it, right? Not greed, or a complete disregard for those underaged kids, or anything like that.

Quote from: KyloI noticed the OP made the topic further down the page called "internalized transphobia" and reading back over the opening post for that it sounds like your problem is exactly the same still - you don't want to believe you're anything but female, and we do not have the right to call ourselves men. That's your firm belief that you are actively choosing to believe over anything else. And you're waiting to feel male? That does not make much sense to me.

I already acknowledged in the OP that I had already made a similar post but that nothing has really changed and it is still plaguing me.

QuoteWe can't really help you. The problem is being caused in no small part by your own perspective and unwillingness to budge from it, it seems. Some people would suggest seeing a therapist but I know this one has to come from inside yourself and your own philosophy, if any change is going to happen. Either that, or learn to stomach your own philosophy that you are a woman 'playing' a man?

That's what I'm trying to do, but NOTHING that anyone has said on this thread, or in therapy (and yes, I went to gender therapy for a year), or on any site I've read in the 8 years I've been thinking about transitioning has ever managed to convince me that trans men are anywhere close to real men or that I could be one myself.

I'd like to be able to believe that I'm a real man but I still don't see how I possibly could. I was born female. That biological reality can't be changed, no matter how long I take T, no matter what surgeries I get. And that's true of all trans men.

Quote from: Stone MagnumI remember that old post and then I saw this one pop up. A ton of helpful things have been posted both in this thread and the other one and the ongoing problem is that you're wholly unwilling to listen or alter your current perspective in any way.

What makes you say I'm unwilling to listen? I've read every reply to both my threads. It doesn't mean I will agree with what's said though. I can't WILL myself to change my fundamental belief that is based on objective reality just because I WANT to. It doesn't work that way.

Quote

You have one of two options:
1. Continue feeling like a woman playing 'pretend'.
2. Open your ears, listen, realign your perception and possibly derive some enjoyment from your existence.

I can't do #2 in good conscience at this point though, and I really am not sure I ever will be able to. Not because I don't want to, but it goes against my sense of reality. I believe I WOULD have to allow myself to become delusional to pursue #2.

QuoteNothing anyone has said to you has been met with anything but counteraction. You're completely closed off because you want to be in that familiar headspace.

I want to be in a familiar headspace? Where are you getting this from? Why on earth would I WANT to be plagued with this? I don't. Again, just because I don't ENJOY believing what I believe doesn't mean I can change it at the drop of a hat.

You might believe in climate change, for example. But wouldn't it be relieving to NOT believe in it and believe instead that everything is fine and that we are in no danger from global warming? Yes, that would probably be a pleasant belief to have, it would make you happier perhaps, but I'm sure you can't force yourself to believe it.

So I will continue to counter opinions that don't make sense to me. That's kinda the point of this discussion. If you don't want to read my arguments, feel free to view any other thread.

QuoteI feel for you because that has to be a ****** place to be, but you've got to open your mind a bit.
This merry-go-round of 'let's present a question and then violently deflect every helpful response' isn't really doing anything for anyone.

My mind is open. I've considered every single response that's been posted. But that doesn't mean that I will agree with what is said.

I would LOVE to see someone present an argument that could convince me, once and for all, that I and other trans men are "men" and that what we're doing is perfectly sane and that we have the right to say we're men, but so far, I'm not seeing it.

Lately I've been considering stopping my transition, for the sole reason that it'll probably never get me what I really want. Maybe I really WILL try to change my thoughts to embrace the female I was born as. It's never worked in the past, and I've tried many times, but transitioning doesn't seem to be working either.

I feel that I basically have a choice between being a natural female or as a fake male that's really still a female anyway. So it's basically between "pretty female that has biological reality backing her up and can at least perform the acts of femaleness that she was naturally meant for, such as childbearing" or "female that delusionally forces everyone to refer to her as a man even though everyone knows she's not one, that presents as male as soon as you undress her and realize she's female, and therefore will always be stuck in a gray, non-binary, intersex space".

I don't see being a male as an option that is available to me, no matter how much I'd like it to be.

Cool, I'll accept your invitation and check out of reading this thread. Good luck with all that you have going on.

I might've been born with female parts and a female chromosomal makeup, but I look male now. I sound male now. I have a flat chest like a male now. I have a penis, balls, and no vagina or internal female plumbing like a male now. The only thing that would tell you I had ever been female is a karyotype test to look at my chromosomes. I have corrected every piece of documentation to be found about me since my birth. I use men's locker rooms and restrooms and I don't attract a second glance. I interact with people everyday who have no idea and will never have any idea.

Sure, I do feel robbed of a proper childhood and cheated out of typical male coming of age experiences. But am I going to let that hold me back from enjoying the rest of my life as a man? Of course not. I'm 28 years old. I might have had 25 years of unsatisfactory lived experience in a mostly female body, but that's been sorted now and I've got probably twice as many or more years to live and actually enjoy my life.

I don't feel like a fraud. I can understand to an extent why it may feel that way, in the in-between stages, just due to societal understandings of masculinity and whatnot. But I think a big part of maintaining your mental health while transitioning is being able to get to a point where you're comfortable with not conforming and you can move through the world without dwelling on what other people think.

Transition is just that. It's temporary, from point A to point Z. If you haven't gotten to the point where you're comfortable with who you are, then either your transition isn't done or perhaps you shouldn't have transitioned to begin with.

I think you should sit down and figure out what it would take for you to get to a point of comfort with your maleness, and adjust your transition/goals accordingly. If having a penis is end game for you, which it sounds like it is, then good news - you can get one. In the interim, from your original post it doesn't sound like you're entirely happy with your results on T so far. How do your labs look? If your T is low, is your doctor willing to increase your dose so that you'll masculinize more quickly? If you're unhappy with your physique/fat distribution, what is your weight and body fat like? A lot of people seem to have this idea that T will solve all of their body image issues by itself with time, and that's not always the case. Sometimes you have to put in some work to get where you want to be.

Quote from: Bacon on April 12, 2017, 07:26:58 PM
...NOTHING... has ever managed to convince me that trans men are anywhere close to real men or that I could be one myself.

"Anywhere close". As in the fact a passing transman can be indistinguishable from any other man in a crowd, and one with the operations is also not likely to be mistaken for a woman? At best, a passing transman with the ops is the living equivalent of a sterile cis man in functionality. Not biologically - but in terms of getting on with living your life, it's basically the same damn thing. You are splitting hairs and already know it's not helping you, so for your own sake you might want to sort that out. It's entirely possible to hold more than one view of the subject from different perspectives, scientifically and philosophically.   

Quote
I would LOVE to see someone present an argument that could convince me, once and for all, that I and other trans men are "men" and that what we're doing is perfectly sane and that we have the right to say we're men, but so far, I'm not seeing it.

Then how on earth did you embark on transition? You sat and let other people convince you to do something insane?

Nobody here said they ARE a born man. For the purposes of living a life as a man it does not help to sit there thinking you're really a woman. It just doesn't. In fact it probably leads to the state of being "plagued" as you apparently are.

Well, it's your journey and your choice how to think of yourself, but it seems to the rest of us like you make the topic as a cry for help because you struggle with the fact you don't feel you will ever be a man, just a fake one. You have to expect responses directed at correcting the problem, unless you want everyone to just agree that you are a fake man, and go deal with it. It's not anyone's place to convince you. You transitioned for yourself, I assume, without anyone making you do it, in fact it is usually our position to convince the medical professionals that we believe in it as a form of treatment and that we feel more male than female to begin with, and that we are willing to do what is necessary to adapt to that.

This is nothing like the importance of global warming. Ignoring global warming is dangerous with very real repercussions for everyone. Ignoring the past of a female life isn't. Leaving that behind isn't. Living what you feel is best isn't. There is no sensible imperative to constantly remind yourself of something that brought issues, especially if you can get to the point at which it might as well be a figment of the past, for you and everyone else. Other people are able to do it, so it is possible.

It sounds like cognitive dissonance for you at this point, since you are saying this after, what, 9 months on T? Probably not nearly long enough. You are not passing 100% and you are frustrated with that. Understandable. But patience is the name of this game. It can take 5-10 years for all the characteristics to come in. You know this, don't you?

Quote from: Bacon on April 12, 2017, 07:26:58 PM

I would LOVE to see someone present an argument that could convince me, once and for all, that I and other trans men are "men" and that what we're doing is perfectly sane and that we have the right to say we're men, but so far, I'm not seeing it.

Lately I've been considering stopping my transition, for the sole reason that it'll probably never get me what I really want. Maybe I really WILL try to change my thoughts to embrace the female I was born as. It's never worked in the past, and I've tried many times, but transitioning doesn't seem to be working either.

I feel that I basically have a choice between being a natural female or as a fake male that's really still a female anyway. So it's basically between "pretty female that has biological reality backing her up and can at least perform the acts of femaleness that she was naturally meant for, such as childbearing" or "female that delusionally forces everyone to refer to her as a man even though everyone knows she's not one, that presents as male as soon as you undress her and realize she's female, and therefore will always be stuck in a gray, non-binary, intersex space".

I don't see being a male as an option that is available to me, no matter how much I'd like it to be.

...or...you could just be a female born person who decides to dress and appear more masculinely, take on a less feminine name, drop female gender roles for the sake of normalcy, and do what feels natural to you. Nobody said you had to force anyone to see you as male, and if they do and that's not in your pants, so what? You do realize androgynous people get misgendered a lot, too. If you just be comfortable as yourself; woman, "man", whatever, and maybe not try so hard, I think that'd be a really good, helpful option for you. You dont have to give you transitioning to a man a name, just you transitioning to a more comfortable state. It's natural for woman-born individuals to have T, body hair, deep voices, etc. 

You just seem to be in a very hectic state over this, and you need to find something that'll help, you dont have to be delusional to be a masculine individua who looks more malel that was born a woman

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PM
More comfortable in their delusions, maybe. Or just girls that think it's trendy or somehow empowering to say they're guys when they aren't and aren't even trying to live or look like them. Maleness and femaleness will cease to have meaning at all if ANYONE can say they are either without even looking the part.

There is nothing anyone can say that will convince me that maleness and femaleness are not directly, inextricably connected to physicality. When people say that gender and sex shouldn't be conflated, it's pure nonsense. A trans man wouldn't say he identifies with the male gender unless he was thinking of wanting the body of the male sex, or the characteristics associated with the male sex. Gender and sex may not be the same but they have to be extremely closely linked or else maleness and femaleness lose all their meaning entirely. My current opinion is that "gender" is the "sex" you want to be and "sex" is the "sex" you actually are.

Haven't been on in a couple weeks so a bit late to reply, but guess the threads still going. Anyway to get to it, I'm not really sure what your purpose is here. If you're trying to convince yourself or other people that you/us/whoever is delusional or what the purpose is exactly. But regardless, ok let's say that these people you're referring to are "teenage girls comfortable in their delusions" or whatever. So what? Why do you feel so threatened by them? They're making people take trans people less seriously? Really? Focus on what you can control instead of trying to control other people or denounce other people.  And honestly as far as the "seriousness" that people generally take trans people, maybe I'm in a happy little urban Canadian bubble over here, but it's my impression that people in general are more accepting of trans people these days, not less. Unless you're gauging acceptance by whether you're be accepted by a bunch of alt-right pepes or something.

As far as maleness and femaleness. That's something that we see differently for sure. Yes there's a physical component, but there's also a social and self-perception/understanding component, and I suspect that differs from person to person. But considering you've basically said you can't look at it any other way then I won't waste my time with putting my thoughts down on that topic.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMI think these types of people have done more harm than good for the trans community. Many of them are just teenage girls that are playing around with labels to feel different and unique. They think that they can suddenly be men, the holy grail!, as long as they say they are. If society thought we were jokes before, they have much more reason to think it now, with people identifying as demiboys or demigirls or non-binary or insisting on being called he/him even when they present 100% female, etc.

I'm not sure its done any harm to the trans community frankly. Or at least I don't see what the "harm" is. Again, might be speaking from the urban Canadian bubble, but trans people have more legal rights and protections, not to mention more general acceptance than in the past. Are there still problems? Of course, but I'm not sure these folks whoever they may be are the source. Then again I've never heard of demiboys/demigirls. One thing to keep in mind though is that reality of what's happening on the ground isn't always reflected in what's happening on the internet. Online on the rare occasions I venture into ->-bleeped-<- or whatever there seems to be a new gender label popping up every other day, and I think that has to do with the fact that online space provides the anonymity to explore one's identity more than real life. Meanwhile, in real life queer and trans community I've never met anyone who identified with those labels or the 101 new pronouns that apparently exist now because someone online said so.

With that said, in no way does what I said above reflect on how I see non-binary folks. I definitely know non-binary/gender neutral folks in the real world and I 100% stand in solidarity with them. I'd rather show solidarity against such a status quo rather than start in-fighting to tear each other apart. But as I said, I think acceptance is changing slowly, which I think is good.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMThat's why I'm currently in favor of a more honest, logical, realistic, non-delusional approach. I think that I could support other trans men more, as well as myself, if we all just acknowledged the reality of the situation: we're women that want to be men. To deny that we're women, to deny that we're female, to insist that we are 100% male and just as male as any cis guy...to me, it absolutely borders on (if not flat-out characterizes) delusional insanity.

So basically you're saying you might be able to support yourself and other trans guys more if everyone just thought like you? :D Sorry man, but no cigar. You can go ahead and see yourself as a "woman who wants to be a man" all you want, like I said more power to you if that's what you want or feel most comfortable with, but really you need to stop projecting onto others. I'm not a woman, call me delusional all you want, but I'm not. I have never in my life felt that way. Even before coming out as trans, female I was ok with, but woman was quite different. Definitely know others who feel very similarly. Am I the same as a cis guy? Nope, I'm not the same as a cis guy. As much as I would have wanted it as a kid, I'm not even sure I want to be the same as a cis guy now. That would mean forgetting a lot of life experiences as though they never happened. Does it make me not a guy? Nope, I'm still a guy just a different type of guy, though I'm sure you see that as delusional. "Wanting to be" something to me means striving in some way to imitate. I've never looked to imitate, I've only looked to live my life as I see fit and to feel comfortable in my own skin.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMThere MUST be a logical basis for our claims. Whether it's the male brain thing, or having a male self-image, whatever. To say we "feel" male doesn't cut it. There is no such thing as feeling male. Feeling stereotypically masculine? Sure. Again, not the same thing as being male. There are many, many women that feel more masculine than feminine. They're still not male.

No ->-bleeped-<- man. I come from the butch/femme community so I'm well aware and don't need any telling. Also, having a male "self-image" as far as I'm concerned is just different language for "feeling male." You go ahead and look for your "scientific basis," I'm perfectly happy to live my life instead of justifying myself left, right and centre.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMIt must be about the physical body this person wants. What else COULD it be about?

But then it comes back to "wants" vs "HAS". I don't believe it's enough to just want something and claim you already have it when you don't.

If its only about the physical body, then how do you explain those of us who are happy with just T or just top surgery? Go on, I feel it coming, we're delusional or possibly not really trans, right? We must also be the evil ruiners of the trans image! :P Quite frankly for me its all about wanting to feel comfortable with my body, my identity and myself. My chest was always something I never wanted to the point that if I hadn't had surgery I may well have gone instead to measures much more harmful than binding to get rid of what was there. It wasn't a "I need to have this chest so I can look like a guy," it was a "I need someone to get these things off me before I chop them off myself." It was utter disgust with a part of my body that I could barely look at. Meanwhile I don't feel as strongly to the idea of T. Maybe one day I'll go on it, but for the past many years I've mostly felt fine without it. Part of that also has to do with having the support of friends and my girlfriend.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMI definitely disagree. Pretty much all the men and women I've ever known act and think in different ways, many of which seem hard-wired. These are men and women from different cultures, backgrounds, upbringings, etc. And if socialization were the only factor, then all of us trans men would think and act more femininely than we naturally do, because that's how we were raised and socialized. Instead, we resist that socialization because our brains are telling us differently.

But if you don't think there are differences in male and female brains, are you saying that you have a female brain and a female body but are a male? If so, if you think you have a female brain, then why do you think you would prefer to have a male body?

I don't really think there are specifically male and female "brains" in such a way that it impacts fundamental thinking. Whether or not trans guys display brain dimorphism more similar to cis men or not, I'm not sure really changes anything for me one way or the other. When I first came out, yeah I was always trying to look for answers about why I was the way I was. At this point I'm not sure I care. My brain is my brain. Maybe its spending so much time in the queer community and/or "heteroflexible" folks, but I know far too much of a diversity in guys with different ways of thinking, women with different ways of thinking, that I don't buy this whole "male and female brain" thing even for cis people. A lot of people look to hetero couples for this whole "men are from mars, women from venus" mentality, as though its the real source of arguments and disagreements. Yet look at any queer couple and they'll have their arguments and different ways of perceiving things and understanding the world that can cause bickering or arguments too. Its a really hetero way of thinking, honestly.

As far as socialisation, there are always people who defy socialisation. If socialisation were a sure fire way to have people turn out a certain way we'd all be heterosexual, all female-bodied people would be ultra feminine and all male-bodied people ultra-masculine. We wouldn't have people who question social or political concepts. Human history and human thought would be static with no difference generation to generation. The reality is people can't be easily pigeon-holed. You can sit there and look for a reason why trans guys are trans guys, but if the "search for the gay gene" or attempts by conservatives to find and eliminate whatever causes tom boys to exist are any indication, it isn't so simple and whatever answers are found won't apply to everyone. Humans and human identity are complex. I'm not gonna pretend to have all the answers.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMI see trans guys as women that want to be guys. Biologically speaking, there is no way that trans guys are already actually guys, and to say otherwise is, again, delusional. Now if we were able to transition fully--hypothetically speaking, let's say that we were able to take T and it would magically remove our breasts, close our vaginas, and give us working penises--then hey, I'd be fine with FULLY TRANSITIONED trans guys saying they're guys. But that's not reality and probably never will be.

Again, feel like you wanna feel about yourself, but you might wanna lay off judging other guys about who they are or how they need to see themselves to meet your pristine sanity "non-delusional" criteria. Also this whole "I'd be fine with..." Why do you think that others' identities, how they should act and perceive themselves should be defined by what you're "fine" with? That's the thing that always gets me, not just with other trans guys like you but folks that take so much issue with trans people. Ultimately, what does it even matter to you as a person? Let people be. I think you expect to be seen as a joke and so you see yourself and others as a joke.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMWhat does it mean to consider yourself a guy though? You knew you didn't have a penis...

Self-image/understanding

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMSo you considered yourself a "person with a penis" even though you knew you didn't have one?

Seems we're just going to go round and round in circles on this one.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMAnd what does it mean to live your life as a guy? It must be about being seen and treated by others as a guy. Otherwise, what does it mean? You go home at night and still know you have a vagina and almost certainly a feminine body besides not having breasts since you're not on T. There are women that have had mastectomies. They're not living their lives as guys though.

For me living my life as a guy means first and foremost living comfortably as myself, and not trying to be something I'm not. I'm aware this seems delusional to you, but to me I'd be more of a "fake" if I pretended to be a woman. Anyway, yes being seen as a guy is a part of it, and I am seen as a guy by my girlfriend and at work. I've mostly worked more physical jobs since I was in my late teens, these are environments that tend to be very hypermasculine. So I'm very aware of how a person is treated depending on whether they're seen as male or female because I've experienced being read as both. Someone read as female entering that environment goes to lift something and I've seen the guys there freak and rush to women's aid for now reason like "you're going to kill yourself," and she basically has to fight and insist just to do her job without some dude hovering around her. Not all cis men react like that, but you figure out pretty fast the ones that do. Its a s*it perception for them to have, this mentality that female-bodied people will break the minute they lift a finger, but as a trans guy who isn't on T it also helps me gauge how people see me. Basically just by doing my job (which requires a lot of heavier work to load/unload the trucks or vans whether from the loading docks or off-site, moving/loading/unloading heavy skids, generally things that take physical strength male-bodied people are associated with having and female-bodied people not) without anyone finding it strange, surprising or alarming helps me gauge how people see me based on their reactions. Besides those general reactions, my co-workers call me by male pronouns, and based on our conversations, s*it they say to me/around me etc. they assume I'm a cis guy with a penis. I do sometimes get new people mispronoun me, but the confusion on my co-workers faces is enough that I'm again able to gauge how they see me. There are a couple guys I suspect might realise I'm trans but it's never come up and hasn't really impacted how we talk to relate to each other. So all that consists of "living as a guy" for me. And I stress, for me, because people are different and that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMI don't think this is a good thing. There should be some benchmarks that trans people have to meet in order to belong to single-sex clubs or sports; for example, one year on hormones. How annoying would it be to be a football team of cis guys, for example, that suddenly have to welcome a girl and act as if she's one of them. Suddenly they'd have to accommodate her weaknesses, they wouldn't be able to participate in guy talk anymore, they'd censor their speech, the whole group dynamic would change. Same for a group of women that have to welcome a guy. I think there is value in sex-separated organizations that will be taken away if everything becomes mixed gender.

Again, I think that you have a really one-size, black and white way of seeing things.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMWell, how can I not? How can any of us not? We -are- women living as men. No, I don't want to identify as a woman, but I kinda HAVE to, seeing as I have breasts, a vagina, a uterus, curves, no penis, etc. Those are the characteristics of a woman. I don't get how any of us can deny that.

Yes, it hurts to think of myself as a woman but at least it's REAL. At least it's honest. It's acknowledging the truth, which is a painful truth, but still the truth: I was born with a female body and am now changing it to become more masculine. I still doubt if I'll ever be able to make it "male" though.

And that's why not everything in life is a cold, hard, inflexible science. Modern science has done great things, but the way we perceive the natural world has definitely been shaped by a particular subjective perspective. Facts are facts, but the interpretation of those facts is always all too human. And that may be the difference. I don't consider there to be such a thing as a 100% objective human perception. For example evolution and climate change are at this point fairly irrefutable fact based on scientific method, and yet how governments and societies perceive them, talk about them/portray them, react to them etc. differs. Facts are facts, but we are taught to interpret them and perceive them in ways that reflect society more than anything else.

Also, vagina, uterus, breasts = woman except when it doesn't. I don't want to sound like I'm trivialising the experiences of intersex people, but the reality is that sex for humans and other animals can be a complicated thing. Not every cis man has the physical characteristic of the "archetypal man" (not talking genitals here), and the same goes for cis women. There's a fair amount of diversity in people and scientists have traditionally tried to explain away deviation as "disorders" even when they don't actually harm the person, instead of seeing it for what it is: human diversity. What would you say to a woman who has lived 30 years of her life perceiving herself as a woman, living as a woman only to find out later in life that she has internal testes? Are you seriously going to tell her she isn't a woman? There has been so much screwed up policing of people's bodies over the last 200 years in particular, where society became more concerned with rigid "observation of specimens," categorisation of human beings (and I'm not just talking sex here, but race/ethnicity, physical anomalies, disability, psychiatric "disorders" for everything that defied the norm) that I don't really care to perpetuate that s*it anymore than it already is. You want to look for scientific explanations, go ahead. Don't expect every trans person's identity to ride on it.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMIt has nothing to do with what others think or say though. If the entire world started reading me as male TOMORROW, it wouldn't change the fact that I know I'm not. I'd still have to be the one to go home, take off my clothes, and acknowledge that I don't have a male body, and that my life as a man is merely a performance.

Again it's all based on perception. For you living your life as a guy might feel like a performance, you're not alone on that. For me, living as a guy means being myself and its the only thing I know how to do without driving myself totally crazy.

The fact that you are so concerned with how your body looks regardless even of how people read you, that's something I think most of us can relate to. That's how I felt about top surgery in particular. In the end it's not just our bodies, it's not just the social aspect, but to me what it 100% is is self-understanding and self-image regardless of physical or social circumstances. Your dysphoria is one that means you need to see everything about you look physically cis male in order to feel like "not a fraud." Not everyone feels that way, though. It's tough, it definitely is, but I think unpacking your thoughts and learning to understand your dysphoria as dysphoria might help. Trying to figure out the best way to say what I'm getting at, but I think instead of seeing your dysphoria for what it is you're seeing it as evidence of the "undeniable fact" that you can never be a guy. And that being a guy = looking exactly like some kind of cis guy archetype that in and of itself has a lot of variation. Seeing your dysphoria as dysphoria and not just inescapable fact might help you see yourself and your experiences in a new light. Not sure if that's making any sense but anyway.

I think the path you're down now and your line of thinking will only become more self-destructive and serve no other purpose beyond that self-destruction ultimately. Know what you can't change and what you can change, and learn what will make you feel more comfortable in your own skin. Whether that leads to you seeing yourself as 100% male or not, I'm not sure it really matters. Ultimately it's about being good with ourselves.

I know you want some cold, hard answer, but I'm not sure there's any answer in the world that will give you the irrefutable satisfaction you're looking for. From everything you say you seem to want someone to "convince" you, but I don't think anyone can. I think its just down to worldview. Anyway, this post is way too long so apologise for typos and inconsistencies etc. Tried the best I could but at some point you have to stop editing.