One of my friends was talking about BDS. Body dismorphic syndrome. In particular people who want to have one or more healthy limbs amputated because they do not feel they bebelong on their body. My friend says it is no different than a transgender person who wants their healthy genitals removed. She contends that just as a transgender person is happier without their born genitals a person with BDS is happier without the limb/limbs. I am sorry but I don't think it is anything alike!
I had osteo sarcoma. I went through aggressive chemo and radiation as well as very painful limb salvaging surgery and a painful recovery to keep my leg. I find the idea of removing a healthy limb offensive. And to say the desire to have a healthy limb amputated is no different that SRS is highly offensive to me!
How do you all feel about this generalization?
This is an issue and one raised by extremists.
It may be crouched as an argument for amputating a functional penis is as equivalent as amputating a limb
It isn't and think about it.
I can give you the answers but you can think,
So Think !
I think there is at least some superficial similarity regarding the idea of body dysmorphia, but at it's core the transgender experience is tied to additional social and psychological aspects of one's identity, which tends to be not just a specific aversion to body part(s).
That said, I think it's not fair to fault a person who wishes to have their lower leg removed and not one who wants to have breast tissue removed, or wants to insert metal objects into their body. We have a set of generally accepted norms regarding body modifications, and a wide level of acceptability for some procedures versus decreasing acceptance from things that deviate from those norms. I've seen a number of photos of people who've had their penises split down the middle, (same with tongues), which probably squick the average person pretty hard. But that's more of a "simple" aesthetic change, versus the example of desiring a missing limb, which is about that person's desire to make their body "correct," i.e. their body with all limbs is somehow "incomplete."
When considering these cases, I sometimes wonder whether that person, in some alternate/parallel universe has lost a limb, and this desire to fulfill it represents perhaps a stronger attachment or synergy to their alternate self. But I digress.
Back to the original point, whether or not one could draw some simplistic parallels regarding similarities between being transgender and desiring to remove body parts, I believe that there are always things that we could tie together with some thread of similarity. The real question is whether that similarity is at the heart of each of those things, and that's just not the case in the transgender/BDS comparison. Rather, the comparison is generally invoked as a means of belittling or invalidating being transgender and is mean-spirited. In fact I paused before responding because just having the discussion tends to keep that line of thought alive. But I hope we're all friends here and can speak ABOUT the elements of oppression without supporting them.
Erin
Slightly off-topic, there's a film called "American Mary" about some rather extreme body modifications that provokes some thought on this subject.
It's not the same at all. First of all the penis is NOT being removed but rather transformed into something more useful for the transgender woman who desires such a change.
It's more like somebody who has a leg that doesn't work right and they can't walk with it from birth and is undergoing surgery to make that useless, atrophied leg function as a normal leg and not be disabled anymore.
We are conflated with being perverts in the bathrooms. Gay sex is the same as having sex with animals (remember that one?) It is just ignorant people trying to find a rational reason to express hate or at a minimum delegitimize trans or LGBT folk. Sounds like your friend could be a little nonsuportive. Sorry you went through all that with your health.
Moni
Just wanted to add people wanting their limbs removed is called something different (can't remember the name of the condition though); while BDD is when people see flaws in their body other people can't see. For example hours obsessing over their nose because they think it's too big or in extreme cases having several nose jobs to 'correct' said nose but never being satisfied with it (same as the issues Michael Jackson had)
I think Jane gave the perfect answer as to to how that condition is different from being trans. I suppose some people with that condition also may want to have a disability because of the attention they'll receive; while trans people would want nothing more than to go about their daily lives as inconspicuously as possible. My brother said years ago before I came out that trans men getting top surgery are mutilating their bodies; which is a very odd thing to say as cis men can develop
gynecomastia as well and I very much doubt he'd say the same thing about them having chest reconstruction surgery.
Bet he still thinks that due to him still misgendering me.
Jane's description is really spot on.
We are all trying to just get our bodies to allow us to live as our brains were prenatally wired.
I can see where bigots try to draw the comparison. If they take the position that transgender is a mental disorder which science has proven to be false. Following that line of thought would make any group who wants to change their bodies mentally I'll. That's what the religious zelots try to say.
In the past diagnosis of gender dysphoria required persistent dysphoria. So with that idea the bigots try to argue that those wanting to remove a limb are the same. The difference is science has proved the existence of multiple sections of the brain that are prenatally gender dymorphic. There is even a group if Japanese researchers who claimed that one area of the brain is so standardized in the male and female brain that they could make a clinical diagnosis from just an MRI of that section. There claims of consistency have not been tested by another research team so far as I have read.
Wanting to intentionally mutilate yourself is different from a harmless modification procedure, and besides that loss of limbs is a genetic defect and not how a person should normally be. Whereas sex is something a person could be either way had certain aspects aligned differently prior, in other words if you went back in time and had been born the opposite sex no one would look at that birth and consider it a defect or a handicap.
As it stands mental illness is classed as something that decreases the individuals experience of life. Transgender people who suppress their urges and receive countertherapy usually are suffering more than transgender people who undergo surgery and transition, these people are experiencing an increase in general comfort and life experience. Therefore the only real mental illness is dysphoria not being transgender itself.
Having a male/female face, butt, chest, or crotch doesn't decrease a person's mobility or function in day to day life, it's only a physical change that imitates the visual aspects or functions of body parts the user was not born with.
The person above who said the penis was usually converted into something else is pretty accurate, seconding that statement since most people dont look into bottom surgery and dont realize the penis isnt just being chopped off, it's functioning as its intended use (sex representation, maybe sex) which the individual was having trouble with prior. Same with what Elis said with top surgery, nobody bats an eyelash at a man who cuts out extra chest fat because its more natural for a male to be flat chested, even though for that particular man the chest fat was natural.
usually i dismiss opinions that focus on surgery and genitalia off the bat tbh, there's more to being trans than what's in your pants
It's an interesting subject but; I feel, it has no place on a gender forum ? One could argue that it's simply a need to align ones body to a mind "map" but it would render the patient with a quite limited functionality. I feel a trans mind set is only a need to enhance ones body. A lessening of ones wholeness, of ones societal comformity would seem; to me, a very negative path to follow.
Paula, X.
I never understood that crap. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for body mod. I have tons of tattoos and piercings. But crippling yourself on purpose? What the hell?! Why, why, why, why? If the limb is diseased, or causing other health concerns, then hack the damn thing off. But just because it's the "in thing"? If everyone did what was "in", we would all have armbands and barcodes tattooed on us. If it's your desire to have to be cared for 24/7 just because you think it's "cool", then you need to have your head examined, because you must have dropped your brain somewhere.
I'm with Jennifer on this one. I think people who want to lose a healthy limb are nut cases. I answered a call last year where a dude tried to cut his leg off with a circular saw. (I'm a paramedic) The dumbass tied off his leg with a tourniquet but he made the cut above the tourniquet. DUH!! :icon_blah: He nearly died from blood loss.
I suppose that one might start out by saying these troubled people are "nut cases" who need their "heads examined," but then what? Should they be institutionalized and medicated to "protect themselves from themselves?" What happens if either a self-induced injury or perhaps even an accident requires the removal of the undesired limb? If they then demonstrate stability with their condition should they then be released? I think that this really pokes at the definition of disease/disability, and whether a physician is helping or hurting by performing these amputations. For a person suffering from BIID, a life of confinement and drug-suppressed cognition may truly be a far worse condition than the desired amputation.
I often hear people joking about photos depicting extensive facial tattoos or piercings, suggesting that the person with those modifications is disabling themselves from many employment/career opportunities. I imagine most of us cringe at that description, and some can probably cite examples of heavily tattooed/pierced individuals having great success in their fields. While we see the condition of people suffering with what we call BIID as fundamentally different from those suffering from gender dysphoria, I don't see it as reason to throw those folks under the proverbial bus. Rather than defending the position of the Transgender community by drawing a distinct line over which the BIID sufferers have crossed, and joining in the rejection of their condition as valid, we could also draw the distinction while maintaining some compassion and support for them.
Erin
I hear what you're saying Dayta, but why would a person cut off a perfectly healthy limb for no reason other than they think it's cool or fashionable? Does that even make sense? What would you say if one of your children (hypothetical if you have none) wanted to do this? Would you try to stop them or let them maim themselves?
QuoteI often hear people joking about photos depicting extensive facial tattoos or piercings, suggesting that the person with those modifications is disabling themselves from many employment/career opportunities.
As for tattoos, I have 2 facial tattoos. I have a teardrop under my left eye, and a tribal on the right side. If you're curious about the tribal google Zell from Final Fantasy 8, and you'll see exactly what I have.
I also have facial piercings. 2 in the left eyebrow, septum, and a viper in my labret. It's not particularly noticeable, but I also have my tongue pierced. And there are 18 piercings in my ears alone, and I've never had any issues as a result of them. So facial modification isn't as big a problem as you might think.
Quote from: Jennifer RachaelAnn on June 05, 2017, 07:19:31 PM
facial modification isn't as big a problem as you might think.
Jennifer,
Please don't misunderstand me, I don't have a problem at all with tattoos or piercings, but I have seen on my Facebook feed, time and time again pictures of people with full face tattoos and with hundreds of piercings (probably the exact same photos, over and over again). and my old high school friends or aerospace engineer Republican associates throw all sorts of awful slurs, bemoaning that they'd never ever hire anyone that looked like that. So I know people who harbor all sorts of biases. My point is that even for those kinds of modifications that we might consider to be "mainstream," if I might let my inner hipster show a little, there are people criticizing those behaviors or fashions. Another trope I get all over my feed is about the "infamous" people on welfare or food stamps, supposedly spending money on tattoos, and not on food. I don't accept these ideas, I don't agree with them, but neither can I make them go away in the smaller minds of others.
Quote from: Jennifer RachaelAnn on June 05, 2017, 07:19:31 PM
I hear what you're saying Dayta, but why would a person cut off a perfectly healthy limb for no reason other than they think it's cool or fashionable? Does that even make sense? What would you say if one of your children (hypothetical if you have none) wanted to do this? Would you try to stop them or let them maim themselves?
If you read about the people suffering from BIID, you'll find that they're not being trendy. One might argue that they're not normal, that they're not mentally capable, but the stories tend to describe very long-term feelings of great unease or even disgust with their unwanted body part. If it were my child? Goodness, I can't even imagine, and being such a hypothetical (we don't have any children), I don't think it much matters what I say I would or wouldn't do. It seems that either way, helping them to get relief from their suffering or trying to "cure" them of this affliction, would be difficult to bear.
I guess in the end, what I'm trying to advocate is not to conflate our situation with this other one, which is wholly unrelated and dissimilar, but not to jump on board the bandwagon of dumping on them either. We can adopt a position of mercy and empathy for their situation, just as we would have others adopt toward us. Let that be the default. For if we fight for mercy over all, even if we were to lose the fight to keep these issues separate in our oppressors' minds, perhaps some ease might be granted us as well. I don't think that it benefits our community to belittle or even oppress another, smaller, less accepted group of struggling people.
Erin
Well said. I should mention that I didn't fully understand BIID, but I guess it's no different from us. I mean how many transgenders have surgery to get a sex change? A lot.
I think the guy from the movie 127 hours was pretty justified in hacking off his own limb.
Other than that...if you want to destroy a functional aspect of yourself it's going to be a different scenario than transgender, which isn't destroying a functional aspect of oneself but rather becoming more functional in presentation, which isnt harmful in any way.
I agree that finding sympathy with BIID patients is important, but I dont think these people really understand that that "feeling" they have of being more whole or something is going to change when they realize the issues they have readapting to day to day life after they get rid of a limb theyve been used to using most of their day to day life. They end up making life harder for themself rather than easier, unlike people who don't have a choice in the matter, and would prefer to have their limbs because it would make life easier than the life they live being adapted to life without a limb, but hey they cant really wish an arm or leg back so they accept their fate as done and just live life.
....I have a very odd feeling that if cybernetic arms become a reality more and more of that condition might arise. Luckily, that concept is restricted to fantasy for the time being
My girlfriend has Body Dysmorphic Disorder, and in her experience as well as most others with BDD (according to her as well as most other informational videos I've seen) the desire to remove limbs is a very rare instance, and sometimes completely unrelated. And unfortunately, those are the only cases you hear about.
My girlfriend's main problems are with her weight and her nose. She has an eating disorder and she's very thin, but with help she's trying to focus on being healthy and not letting the BDD win. It's the same with her nose, she desires to have one that's much smaller than it is now and she considers cosmetic surgery - though she realizes herself that the BDD likely won't go away with the surgery, so she's also working on self-acceptance, which is proving to be very difficult for her.
BDD manifests differently in each person with it, but as I stated before, the instances of people wanting to get rid of limbs are pretty rare, and the instances of them actually doing it is even rarer.
Like others have said, there are similarities in the sense of "incorrectness" between people with BDD and people who are transgender, but they are very different. Body dysmorphia is VERY different from gender dysphoria. Body dysmorphia is a situation where the appearance changes in their vision to something grotesque that they have to resort to extreme measures to rid themselves of. Rather than seeing themselves in the mirror and seeing something they're not happy with, they see something ENTIRELY different.
People with BDD often develop obsessive behaviors regarding their appearance, like avoiding or constantly looking in mirrors, applying and removing makeup over and over again, and in some instances self harm in various forms. My girlfriend's obsessive behaviors involve staring at herself in any mirror she passes and sometimes going to lengths to find one (now she carries one on her at all times) and applying and removing makeup to the point that her skin is severely irritated from it. It can take her hours to get ready for a simple trip to the supermarket if she's having a particularly bad day, and if she just can't get her makeup right, she'll stay home just in order to fix it.
There are people who desire to remove limbs, and while I'm all for bodily autonomy and freedom of expression, I do believe that people who believe they need something so extreme (ONLY IF it's due to BDD) should go through intense therapy before they go ahead with anything.
People with BDD are NOT being trendy in the slightest. It's a real and very debilitating mental illness that can severely impact one's quality of life, and even drive some to suicide.
That being said, BDD and being transgender are very different. People who compare them often have severe misunderstandings of both. Some people use it as a verbal weapon, but most are simply misunderstanding the implications of the disorder and being transgender.
BDD is a legitimate mental condition that needs intense therapy to try and "correct" (and even then the rate of cure is extremely low; it's considered a chronic mental illness) so I can see why many of you feel it's offensive to be compared.
But please be aware that people with BDD aren't doing it just for the sake of it. They're victims of a terrible mental illness that will likely stick with them for the rest of their lives and often drives them to do impulsive things they wish they didn't want to do.
My brother has known plenty of people who've cut off fingers and limbs and such to feel happy. They do feel happier now that those things are gone.
I used to think I had BIID because I wanted to cut off my breasts then I realized it applied to all of me. Honestly I feel it's perfectly valid to compare BIID to ->-bleeped-<- because it often involves stress at something being there. I have attempted to carve my breasts and hip fat off in the past (i barely scratched the skin) but I know if I had managed to shear it all off, I would feel immense relief.
I would quite like to explore the possible connections and differences between the two because I feel like maybe it'll unlock some of the secrets of ->-bleeped-<- and why we're like this.
...but i'm probably wrong to say that because everyone here is insisting otherwise. :'(
Quote from: undautri on June 30, 2017, 02:14:11 PM
My brother has known plenty of people who've cut off fingers and limbs and such to feel happy. They do feel happier now that those things are gone.
I used to think I had BIID because I wanted to cut off my breasts then I realized it applied to all of me. Honestly I feel it's perfectly valid to compare BIID to ->-bleeped-<- because it often involves stress at something being there. I have attempted to carve my breasts and hip fat off in the past (i barely scratched the skin) but I know if I had managed to shear it all off, I would feel immense relief.
I would quite like to explore the possible connections and differences between the two because I feel like maybe it'll unlock some of the secrets of ->-bleeped-<- and why we're like this.
...but i'm probably wrong to say that because everyone here is insisting otherwise. :'(
I think the main difference between the two is transgender people who medically transition feel great relief at altering their bodies but are still able to physically function while people who with biid can't physically function after having limbs or fingers cut off or can do so but only when aided and with much physical discomfort. Which hinders not helps their lives.
Quote from: Elis on June 30, 2017, 03:00:10 PM
I think the main difference between the two is transgender people who medically transition feel great relief at altering their bodies but are still able to physically function while people who with biid can't physically function after having limbs or fingers cut off or can do so but only when aided and with much physical discomfort. Which hinders not helps their lives.
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for putting it so clearly to me!
This is kind of a weird topic to try to explain......And I know my say here isn't going to make much sense, but I'mma try anyway.
I personally agree that wanting to remove a healthy limb that is useful kind of ridiculous but
I don't necessarily agree that it's much different from being trans...
But I also think that wanting to remove a healthy limb sounds like more of a mental condition...But that also makes me feel like I am saying trans is a mental condition, which in a sense it is.....
Our mind and self don't match our bodies, much like someone who wants a limb removed feels the same way.
Much like some people don't agree with our choices and our mis-matched minds and bodies, it's understandable that some of us would not agree with their choices and mis-matched bodies.
I am very sorry that you went through so much, and I can understand your frustration, however it's unfortunately something that exists, and if that's how they feel they can't help that, much like us.
I know it seems like really weird to remove a healthy arm or leg but I'm putting myself in that person's place. I can't know what that person is feeling. Maybe the arm or leg is causing them mental pain. I also wouldn't be so fast to call them crazy. LOTS of people think transgender people are crazy. Just because we would never want to lose a limb we shouldn't condemn these people. I guarantee almost all CIS men would think losing his dick is the worst thing imaginable and most CIS women would consider losing their breasts the most horrible thing ever. What if trans people weren't allowed to do those things cause people thought they were crazy and the procedures were banned? I don't fully understand the people who want to lose limbs but as a trans person I wouldn't condemn or judge someone who wants to remove a body part that is causing them mental anguish. Thats just my feeling and opinions about it.
Julia
The ultimate generalisation is to look at it in this way, its one person's view of someone else and what they want for themselves, for whatever reason, and then making a judgement, thats not a problem until they decide to tell people what they think of others life choices, whether its genetic or conscious, if you feel its right for you, then it is.
For the record i have all my limbs, they're quite useful
This morning while I was waking up, a though about this thread crossed my mind. Completely forgot in this discussion is the FTM members of the site who wish to have something added to their body that they were born without. That indicates our desire for surgery is not based on a desire for amputation.
Quote from: Dena on July 04, 2017, 10:17:20 AM
This morning while I was waking up, a though about this thread crossed my mind. Completely forgot in this discussion is the FTM members of the site who wish to have something added to their body that they were born without. That indicates our desire for surgery is not based on a desire for amputation.
Let us also not forget all the MtFs that get breast augmentation, as they desired to have larger breasts than what hormones could provide. To me, it really goes to show that being transgender has more to do with correcting one's body, than chopping it up. What saddens me, is the fixation so many people seem to have on the genitalia others have, even when there is no romantic (or sexual) desire.
Quote from: Dena on July 04, 2017, 10:17:20 AM
This morning while I was waking up, a though about this thread crossed my mind. Completely forgot in this discussion is the FTM members of the site who wish to have something added to their body that they were born without. That indicates our desire for surgery is not based on a desire for amputation.
Quote from: Lady Sarah on July 04, 2017, 09:31:29 PM
Let us also not forget all the MtFs that get breast augmentation, as they desired to have larger breasts than what hormones could provide. To me, it really goes to show that being transgender has more to do with correcting one's body, than chopping it up. What saddens me, is the fixation so many people seem to have on the genitalia others have, even when there is no romantic (or sexual) desire.
I feel this! One of the cosplayers I grew up admiring came out and start transitioning (FTM) and he stated he wasn't going to have bottom surgery specifically because he couldn't stand having something attached to his body that wasn't originally there, and since you do experience anatomy growth, it was enough for his dysphoria, so the only thing he had done was the top surgery. I know that's kind of the opposite, but it makes sense to me in a way and seems related to the above comments.
Dysphoria or not, people all have different ways of coping, different levels of what they're comfortable with and what they will and won't have removed or added to their bodies.