Hi loves,
I have always feared, in a way, going out as me since I am masculine after having let my maleness be who I was, until at this late time in life I am being driven internally to find out and to live as I have always wanted to, as a woman, and the call for this is so strong I am finding a need to investigate where it will lead. I was talking to a good (non-binary) friend and they stated that the new thing is not to necessarily try to pass as a cis female, but just be who you end up being; who you are! Is this true? I am not sure that will satisfy me as I have built up this image of passing as a woman - it may be tough for me to do! :(
I guess I am just confused, I know what I have always believed, and I know who I am, but this is something new to me and seems more social than internal? Am I mixing up a lot of things in this one?
What is your experience with this?
Love and Hugs, Marcie
I found the middle, androgynous space to be very difficult. I'm older, and probably a bit more binary because of it. Passing isn't an option, and philosophically I reject it anyway, but it is impossible to deny how much easier it would make the day to day.
YMMV, but it seems to me that this journey is about being yourself. If your real self needs to express traditional femininity by "passing" then that is who you are. If, along the way, you find that that is a stricter standard than you need, then just being the way you end up as is who you really are. You won't necessarily know where on that path you will end up until you try either way.
Explore your options with curiosity. If you aim for passing, along the way you will go through a stage of not quite passing. Pay attention to how that feels. If it feels good, that's great. If it feels like you need more, that's fine, too.
Explore, too, what you mean by "passing". Does it mean that not even the most suspicious person can tell that you are trans? Does it mean that most people can't tell? Does it mean that you always get gendered correctly? Does it mean that you usually get gendered correctly? There are no wrong answers. You get to define your goals.
I am finding that just being me, the way I am today, is fantastic. I get gendered correctly in most situations. I haven't gotten any feedback about whether I pass or not, and I have not inquired. I am finding that it really isn't that important to me.
The more I tried to pass, the heavier I used heavy foundation, wigs, corsets, pads, the more strained and fake and miserable looks I had. Once I relaxed and realized I'm not going to fool anyone, nor do I intend to. I scaled down a lot on my efforts, still striving to look feminine and even sexy, but not trying to hide what couldn't be hidden. I immediately felt more at ease with myself after that decision and it coincided (?) with much higher public acceptance of me from very different people of all walks of life. (I was very outgoing, 75% of time living as mtf, going out and about during daytime and at night)
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From what I've read, a high percentage of millennials believe people are on a gender spectrum, rather than adhering to the gender binary, and 20% of them identify as LGBTQ.
Rather than choosing to transition to either male or female, many are choosing to transition until they feel comfortable, then stopping.
Millennials Are America's Queerest, Least Binary Generation Yet https://www.themarysue.com/millennials-queerest-generation/
Quote from: Marcieelizabeth on June 19, 2017, 08:05:36 AM
...I was talking to a good (non-binary) friend and they stated that the new thing is not to necessarily try to pass as a cis female, but just be who you end up being; who you are! Is this true? I am not sure that will satisfy me as I have built up this image of passing as a woman...
It is both.
If we want to transition to female or male, then we want to pass and be seen as that gender by our surroundings. But, at the same time, we want this to be who we are, too. If we do not have transition as the end goal, but more of a fluidity with our gender, then both may not be applicable.
I'm not even close to being able to pass, so I'm going with just being who I am, at least most of the time.
I feel like the type of woman I would have been, if born with the correct body, would have been a bit of a tomboy and a lesbian, and probably wouldn't have dressed very feminine except on special occasions.
I guess it partly depends how important it is to you that people gender you correctly. Dressing like that with this body does cause me to usually be read as a guy, I choose to not make a big deal of it. I know that I'm transgender, and share that with people who I feel need to know, but some random person asking if I want fries with that sir doesn't really need to know.
I really care most about is not trying to act like a masculine guy and living up to male some rigid binary male set of standards. I did that for far too long, and don't want to really try to live up to some equally rigid binary female set of standards. Whether that makes me non-binary, I don't know, I don't think I'd be viewed as non-binary if I dressed and acted like I do with a female body. I've spend way too much time thinking of such things, rather than just living my life. It works better for me to think of myself as a that lesbian with a male body.
If I'm sirred enfemme, I'd not want those fries either. I'll probably cancel the whole order and go somewhere else. Sir is reserved to guys dressed as guys, anyone else calling me sir is obviously wanting to make a statement at my cost.
Quote from: elkie-t on June 19, 2017, 09:53:17 AM
If I'm sirred enfemme, I'd not want those fries either. I'll probably cancel the whole order and go somewhere else. Sir is reserved to guys dressed as guys, anyone else calling me sir is obviously wanting to make a statement at my cost.
If I did that, I'd never eat.
The way I look, I'm going to be read as male 90% of the time, and the other 10% they don't know how to gender me. I do perhaps scale it down quite a bit more than you do. I would probably gender me as male, if forced to sir/ma'am everyone like my old manager did back when I worked in retail. Some are lucky enough to have the answer to the OP's question be a choice, regardless of whether it is or not, if you are not passing, you are going to be misgendered a lot. If that is something that bothers you, then doing everything you possibly can to pass seems a good idea. Me, I don't really care, I just want my fries.
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on June 19, 2017, 10:17:36 AM
If I did that, I'd never eat.
The way I look, I'm going to be read as male 90% of the time, and the other 10% they don't know how to gender me.
Eating is overrated :)
Even if you're read as male, as I undeniable am, there's no reason for them to assert that I'm a sir, unless they want to. One can avoid addressing me if unsure , I want mind. Or ask.
That's were I stand, you may enjoy your burger with their smirks if you wish
I've found it's all about what is truly consistent with your identity. Early on, I thought I was genderfluid. So going out in what I called "mixed attire" was something I did quite a bit and I just owned it. Maybe that prepared me well for where I'm at now. Having come to terms with the fact that I am a woman and am transitioning, going out in mixed mode is something I don't care for (although still better than all male mode). However, even when presently fully authentically I know I don't pass per-se. However, I just don't care. I'm going to just be who I am and honestly I don't have a problem with getting clocked. Sometimes it can even be kind of fun.
Now I haven't really had any major negative reactions yet, so I suppose its easier for me to be brave and just be me. However, even as I've thought about how I would handle a really bad reaction from people, I only see it reinforcing me rather than being a deterrent.
My eldest on the other hand is squarely non-binary and gender-queer AF. They have no problem going out wearing whatever they like and looking adrogynous and just being themselves. This younger generation of gender queers and non-conformers are really blazing a more free and open approach to self expression. Honestly I think it's great.
Can't we do both? :)
I am myself no matter what, that doesn't change if I work a foam banana 🍌
So if passing meant stop being me then I wouldn't but I want to look how I feel.
So being me first but passing is part of that :)
HI Marcie!
Please excuse my lazy approach here but I just posted in a thread along these same lines in the post operative life section so I am just going to copy and paste from my reply there!....
I realized a couple years ago that the weight of trying to live stealth would be overwhelming and color my every interaction with those around me ... Injecting stress and worry into every encounter about being discovered... I was able to come to a place in my mind after much reflection that it didn't matter... Being seen as female is enough... If people see me as a cis woman ... Great!... If they see me as a transwoman... Great!!!...if they see me as a surgically altered middle age guy in women's clothes ... Not as great but...I can deal with that too!!!... So I guess my approach breaks down to just being me...
This mindset has given me so much in terms of just being able to relax and look at my interactions with others as what they should be.. Pleasant opportunities to connect with people in a meaningful way... Not sources of stress and triggers to be self critical... To this day, I have never had what I would call a truly negative experience with anyone that may have seen me as a transwoman...
Onward we go!
Ashley :)
Don't expect to pass fully but then looking at some of the older females around here you never know (as long as I keep a wig on!!!!) but then folk will have to take me as they find me , old fart not giving a fig any more
I recently was shopping for a used car. I stopped at a local dealer based on an internet ad, requested a test drive and met a representative. I had to submit a copy of my driver's license (complete with my legal female name and gender marker) and a phone number for the test drive. I spent 20-30 minutes in uninterrupted conversation with the rep. As we returned, I asked where I might find a bathroom. He directed me to "first door on the right", i.e. the men's room. I used the women's as per usual, and left immediately. When he called later to check on my interest, I told him the sale was lost when he directed me to the men's room. There's no way that I would execute a purchase on such a high-ticket item with someone who made me feel like pond scum.
Now for fries maybe... ::)
Quote from: tgirlamc on June 19, 2017, 02:18:15 PM
HI Marcie!
Please excuse my lazy approach here but I just posted in a thread along these same lines in the post operative life section so I am just going to copy and paste from my reply there!....
I realized a couple years ago that the weight of trying to live stealth would be overwhelming and color my every interaction with those around me ... Injecting stress and worry into every encounter about being discovered... I was able to come to a place in my mind after much reflection that it didn't matter... Being seen as female is enough... If people see me as a cis woman ... Great!... If they see me as a transwoman... Great!!!...if they see me as a surgically altered middle age guy in women's clothes ... Not as great but...I can deal with that too!!!... So I guess my approach breaks down to just being me...
This mindset has given me so much in terms of just being able to relax and look at my interactions with others as what they should be.. Pleasant opportunities to connect with people in a meaningful way... Not sources of stress and triggers to be self critical... To this day, I have never had what I would call a truly negative experience with anyone that may have seen me as a transwoman...
Onward we go!
Ashley :)
Hello ASHLEY! I love the way you think, I hope to get there with my real life someday - it is what I want so much!!
Love and Hugs Marcie
Quote from: Marcieelizabeth on June 19, 2017, 08:07:38 PM
Hello ASHLEY! I love the way you think, I hope to get there with my real life someday - it is what I want so much!!
Love and Hugs Marcie
Hi Marcie!
The desire to get to this mindset gets you halfway there!!!
I think the biggest issue most of us face in transitioning to our new life is coming to terms with how we want to be perceived vs how we believe we are perceived... It can be such a stumbling block on the road to happiness and can turn what should be an amazing journey into utter misery if we let it and if we don't get our minds wrapped around it all in a way that works for us!
It is a battle in many ways ...but, it is a battle that can be won and is worth the fight!
If I can ever be of help along the way.. Please don't hesitate to PM me!
Onward we go!!!
Ashley :)
Quote from: rmaddy on June 19, 2017, 07:59:05 PM
I recently was shopping for a used car. I stopped at a local dealer based on an internet ad, requested a test drive and met a representative. I had to submit a copy of my driver's license (complete with my legal female name and gender marker) and a phone number for the test drive. I spent 20-30 minutes in uninterrupted conversation with the rep. As we returned, I asked where I might find a bathroom. He directed me to "first door on the right", i.e. the men's room. I used the women's as per usual, and left immediately. When he called later to check on my interest, I told him the sale was lost when he directed me to the men's room. There's no way that I would execute a purchase on such a high-ticket item with someone who made me feel like pond scum.
Now for fries maybe... ::)
That sounds really disrespectful, I probably wouldn't have bought that car either. There is a difference between someone intentionally misgendering you, and someone misgendering you because they don't notice that you are wearing women's jeans and light makeup like I do, and take cues from your physical appearance and voice that you can't hide.
I dress in the subtly feminine way I do maybe because I don't want to be viewed as a guy in a dress. Honestly, I don't feel comfortable at all if I go out presenting in a way that couldn't be perceived as androgynous male, though I don't like doing full guy mode.
This discussion is a bit interesting though, and I don't know that I would feel the same if I were easily passable. If I took the attitude many have here that passing is really important, or that being correctly gendered is really important, I would be unhappy and angry all the time. I don't want to be like that, so I just choose to take the attitude that I'm just going to ignore these things and live my life the best I can.
I'm not inside the sales rep's head. I can't assume that he deliberately misgendered me. Still, the fact that he had my (female) driver's license in his hands and had to enter data on me in his computer convinced me that at the very least, I shouldn't buy a car from someone that dense. My day to day presentation is unequivocally feminine.
For me it's 'just as I am'
Peace and love and all that good stuff,
Sadie
For me being taken as either gender would be a fail. I'm made of sugar and snakes and spice and puppy dog tails. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Shy on June 21, 2017, 04:58:56 AM
For me it's 'just as I am'
Peace and love and all that good stuff,
Sadie
And so pretty!
Love and Hugs, Marcie
I am self-conscious about my voice, and have been since puberty. My voice isn't terribly low but I have never been gendered female over the phone. If I get clocked, that usually occurs at the point when I speak. I mentioned this to a cis-gender friend the other day (we are both in our fifties), I was shocked by her answer - she has been misgendered male several times due to her voice which is a bit low - I didn't notice until she mentioned it. I never imagined her being perceived as anything but female.
If a cis-gender woman is accidentally or intentionally misgendered buying fries or a car, how should she respond. Give up and stay home? Change her appearance to match the expectations of random narrow minded people? Compared to cis-gender, how should a transgender woman respond to the same situation?
If a person gives up something they desire so they can fit the expectations of random narrow minded people, will they thank her or even care? That is the one thing I can guarantee: they don't care.
People who have proven they don't give a damn about you have no right to decide for you. You should be who you want to be.
Quote from: Kendra on June 21, 2017, 09:12:34 AM
I am self-conscious about my voice, and have been since puberty. My voice isn't terribly low but I have never been gendered female over the phone. If I get clocked, that usually occurs at the point when I speak. I mentioned this to a cis-gender friend the other day (we are both in our fifties), I was shocked by her answer - she has been misgendered male several times due to her voice which is a bit low - I didn't notice until she mentioned it. I never imagined her being perceived as anything but female.
If a cis-gender woman is accidentally or intentionally misgendered buying fries or a car, how should she respond. Give up and stay home? Change her appearance to match the expectations of random narrow minded people? Compared to cis-gender, how should a transgender woman respond to the same situation?
If a person gives up something they desire so they can fit the expectations of random narrow minded people, will they thank her or even care? That is the one thing I can guarantee: they don't care.
People who have proven they don't give a damn about you have no right to decide for you. You should be who you want to be.
Awesome post Kendra! :) That adds some good perspective to a big issue!
I guess living in USA it matters that you pass for many reasons...safety, fear of embarassment etc. I cannot imagine living with these real or imaginary fears. I am blessed to live in a society that no one cares or notices. In Thailand the only ones that look twice are the tourists. So I get to be whom I want to be...and I have chosen to be part of the 3rd gender here, some days very female, others more androgenous. We in Thailand are proud to be who we are.
Quote from: Marcieelizabeth on June 19, 2017, 08:05:36 AM
Hi loves,
I have always feared, in a way, going out as me since I am masculine after having let my maleness be who I was, until at this late time in life I am being driven internally to find out and to live as I have always wanted to, as a woman, and the call for this is so strong I am finding a need to investigate where it will lead. I was talking to a good (non-binary) friend and they stated that the new thing is not to necessarily try to pass as a cis female, but just be who you end up being; who you are! Is this true? I am not sure that will satisfy me as I have built up this image of passing as a woman - it may be tough for me to do! :(
I guess I am just confused, I know what I have always believed, and I know who I am, but this is something new to me and seems more social than internal? Am I mixing up a lot of things in this one?
What is your experience with this?
Love and Hugs, Marcie
Hi Marcie, as an FTM I don't know how much insight I'll be able to have on your exact situation, but I definitely know where you're coming from.
Even without the dysphoria, it's very important to just be who you are.
I, personally, have always tried to put forth this mask that makes me seem "normal"-ish, but as of recently I hit this wall where I am like....I am going to be weird and be myself and if someone doesn't like it then I don't need them in my life.
That aside, I think it really depends on the person in this kind of case.
I personally would rather pass, in addition to being myself... If that makes sense?
I am very feminine in figure...I have child-birthing hips, a fat ass and a small waist so passing is extremely hard, especially being pre-HRT....No matter how masculine I dress or act, I am always mis-gendered, generally by strangers, so although it bothers me, I don't let it get my angry, but it does get me down.
Then in addition I am always in makeup stores, etc, because my best friend is SUPER girly....Even though I dress and carry myself masculine everyone just assumes I'm a lesbian rather than a male, even with my chest bound.
I would much rather pass as an effeminate male than a masculine lesbian...but unfortunately passing has never been my forte.
You could play around with both if you're unsure, but if you're more concerned with passing, you do you! Happy trails and good luck! :-*
These sort of introspective questions we ask ourselves, i find interesting. We form our self-view and attitudes early but often we reform them or change. The reasons for our attitude motivations are sort of irrelevant because they are ours and driving forces in our lives.
Personally i want to be me. Would i like to be the most beautiful woman since cleopatra and launch a 1000 electric vehicles (just updating that a bit), yeah i think i could handle the positives and negatives of that. Being clocked, stared at, double-taked and on the receiving end of micro-aggressions can be really tiring and then of course we see the rest women of the world seemingly not have to deal with any of that. But everyone has their issues to deal with.
My wife and my boyfriend (disclaimer: open marriage don't judge :) ) once came up with similar answers to this and independently. I was mentioning to both how important it is for me to continue to get more feminine, skinnier whatever and their response was basically: "You are Robyn we love you because of the whole of you and your feminine looks are only part of that" That is pretty cool.
Still, that does keep me from trying to push further in my looks. I probably blend in 80% of the time, but there are many days i just don't feel like wearing much makeup and feel like being a tomboy and that is part of me too.