Which myths in our community need the axe?
1. It's easy for transmen to pass without T
Sorry, there's a profound difference between being so small and slight you are mistaken for a little boy (when you're 20+) and PASSING ::)
Add myths you've sentenced to the guillotine.
That those in between or outside binary gender are sitting on the fence.
That various behaviors, mannerisms or appearances aren't correct for our target genders.
You have to be one or the other, male or female, there is no in between.
Don't get me started, the list is a mile long ::)
y2g
Quote from: y2gender on December 07, 2007, 09:02:47 PM
That those in between or outside binary gender are sitting on the fence.
That various behaviors, mannerisms or appearances aren't correct for our target genders.
Don't get me started, the list is a mile long ::)
y2g
Too late. I'm getting you started! Really, there are too many ridiculous myths in the transgender community that need eliminated!
Let's line them up. And watch the dogs slurp their blood.
Trans men have it easy. there transition aint as hard as trans girls
I'm more trans then you
A real dude has a dick
I'm a real trans. u aint
* carting a few more condemned to the guillotine *
'If you're not passing, it's your fault. You're doing something wrong. Just try a little harder.'
Now, this myth is most commonly perpetrated by the well intentioned. Sometimes true, sometimes not. The reality is that trans folk have a body incongruent to their gender. It's amazing how many well meaning TS forget this.
'Being 'sirred' (ftm) or 'ma'amed' (mtf) a few times equals passing.'
Self-explanatory.
'Going to the mens' (ftm) or ladies' (mtf) and getting away with it (no one called security) equals passing.'
Self-explanatory.
'Men don't say that.'(said to transman).
Okkkkayyyyy. ::)
Trans men were lesbians b4. dunno. not me!
'Narrow hips are a transwomen exclusive trait'
Nope. Okay fine, genetic female pelvises differ from genetic male pelvises, but there are plenty of narrow hipped, non-hourglassed natal girls out there. When I was going through my 'do anything to escape my notorious school pariah status' phase, I copied the looks and dress of the girls. I was downright jealous of the sexy 'lots of junk in the trunk' girls. I bought the tightest jeans I could find, I ate Krispy Kreme donuts out of business - still no junk in the trunk!
So don't stress over it. If your trunk is empty, you're in good company.
Quote from: Chris on December 07, 2007, 09:54:05 PM
I'm a real trans. u aint
what if this is really true. is it still a myth? >:D
There are no rules, there are no myths. Its your movie. Do what you want. Those other voices and opinions are just comic relief. Or you can just edit them out on the cutting room floor.
TS are instantly recognizeable as
such and there's no way you can be
pass 100%. You must be delusional if you do!!
If you look at antropometry, there's at least 10%
of males that fit in all proportions within female
norms, and probably 20% that fit within at
least 50% of female physical norms.
Of course, many of those outside this 20%,
will become
very very agressive about this and
will even become nasty...
if a person was born ts, you are ts unless you are woman ;)
Which myths in our community need the axe?
I don't know about Myths but words like 'Transwoman' and 'Transman' need the axe badly.....who started that? it's absolutely awful terminology and is a word that presents us as 'freaks' and not a male or female..
I vote the word Transwoman gets the axe...
I don't know of any myths. I don't give the gluteus maximus of a rattus norvegicus what the conventional wisdom says or said.
Wait, I do have one myth for the Mythbusters: buy a cheap acrylic wig, wash it 20 times and then it will look just like natural hair.
Wing Walker
Posted on: December 08, 2007, 02:31:02 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on December 08, 2007, 02:23:02 AM
Which myths in our community need the axe?
I don't know about Myths but words like 'Transwoman' and 'Transman' need the axe badly.....who started that? it's absolutely awful terminology and is a word that presents us as 'freaks' and not a male or female..
I vote the word Transwoman gets the axe...
I second that, Berliegh. No myth.
Wing Walker
What makes something a myth? A bunch of people you don't care about who say it, or one person you really care about who believes it?
i'm half ts & half androgyne or I'm half ts & half tv ::)
The categories TS, TV, AG etc. can be defined clearly, are absolutely separate, and the criteria do not overlap at all.
:-\
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on December 08, 2007, 06:44:44 AM
The categories TS, TV, AG etc. can be defined clearly, are absolutely separate, and the criteria do not overlap at all.
:-\
Nfr
yup. outside you can define yourself as you want. while you are here, you must include yourself in any of these terms:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14714.0.html
plain and simple.
Quote from: Berliegh on December 08, 2007, 02:23:02 AM
Which myths in our community need the axe?
I don't know about Myths but words like 'Transwoman' and 'Transman' need the axe badly.....who started that? it's absolutely awful terminology and is a word that presents us as 'freaks' and not a male or female..
I vote the word Transwoman gets the axe...
It's trans woman and trans man and it was coined (I think) by Julia Serano, read the book "Whipping Girl" and you will probably change your view. She also coined
trans-misogyny, oppositional sexism, self-conscious sex, cisgender, cisgender privilege and a lot of other terms which more accurately reflect our experience.
Serano can coin anything she wants.
Words are only accepted through use
and in my circles, these words are not liked
at all.
In a smaller circle, they may gain
acceptance, but I don't believe it will
ever spread to the whole community.
Myth = My identity is not valid. >:( >:(
Truth = I'm the one who knows myself. No one else does.
I'm holding back a lot of anger right now.
Quote from: Keira on December 08, 2007, 02:16:03 PM
Serano can coin anything she wants.
Words are only accepted through use
and in my circles, these words are not liked
at all.
In a smaller circle, they may gain
acceptance, but I don't believe it will
ever spread to the whole community.
Regardless of whether one wants to use her terminology, I believe Ms Serano's analysis of deep rooted issues underlying trans oppression are spot on. One could express these things using other terminology.
y2g
Posted on: December 08, 2007, 05:46:26 PM
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 05:08:48 PM
Myth = My identity is not valid. >:( >:(
Truth = I'm the one who knows myself. No one else does.
I'm holding back a lot of anger right now.
Agreed. Only each one of us knows how we feel inside. Nobody can invalidate who you are, although it can be extremely frustrating when they try to put us down! I also feel that anger, let's figure out how we can channel it towards creating positive results.
y2g
Quote
Serano can coin anything she wants.
Words are only accepted through use
and in my circles, these words are not liked
at all.
In a smaller circle, they may gain
acceptance, but I don't believe it will
ever spread to the whole community.
QuoteRegardless of whether one wants to use her terminology, I believe Ms Serano's analysis of deep rooted issues underlying trans oppression are spot on. One could express these things using other terminology.
Well, like you said the ones who need to read the book won't read it.
In reality, Serano's terms have gained acceptance by many in the trans community. I have no idea about "circles" the only trans MtFs I know are on Susan's or other forums. I know of very few trans women however who are happy with the terminology that is currently used to describe our experience.
grs is "not" a need
a transsexual person "chooses" to transition
the term non-op applies to "transsexuals" that "don't want" to have surgery
grs is "elective or cosmetics"
mtf transsexuals are "only" attracted to men
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 05:08:48 PM
Myth = My identity is not valid. >:( >:(
Truth = I'm the one who knows myself. No one else does.
I'm holding back a lot of anger right now.
sorry, I can't seem to get past this.
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 08:57:06 PM
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 05:08:48 PM
Myth = My identity is not valid. >:( >:(
Truth = I'm the one who knows myself. No one else does.
I'm holding back a lot of anger right now.
sorry, I can't seem to get past this.
does anyone mind if Rebecca just totally vents right now? she's quoting herself.
OK R., let'er rip!
-ell
Quote from: ell on December 08, 2007, 09:07:16 PM
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 08:57:06 PM
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 05:08:48 PM
Myth = My identity is not valid. >:( >:(
Truth = I'm the one who knows myself. No one else does.
I'm holding back a lot of anger right now.
sorry, I can't seem to get past this.
does anyone mind if Rebecca just totally vents right now? she's quoting herself.
OK R., let'er rip!
-ell
Yes, please Reebs, go head. get it out. we are not here to judge. n loves and understands you. so do others here. we are here for you, my dear friend.
-everything that implies a fascination with being "trans" should die in a fire
-transsexuality is a lifestyle
-"we" should be out and proud ::) excuse me?
-every trans person has an obligation with the tg community
-every trans person should turn into an activist for trans rights
-a pre-op mtf transsexual "shouldn't" use the ladie's room
-ladie's rooms should be used by cd's, tv's, gender variants and everyone that "dresses like" a woman
-transsexuals should be included in the LGBT
-gender dysphoric ppl are transsexual. wrong! a gender dysphoric person is just that, gender dysphoric. that doesn't make them transsexual.
-the soc don't apply to "me" ::)
Quote from: link=topic=22906.msg173224#msg173224 date=1197169879
Quote from: ell on December 08, 2007, 09:07:16 PM
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 08:57:06 PM
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 05:08:48 PM
Myth = My identity is not valid. >:( >:(
Truth = I'm the one who knows myself. No one else does.
I'm holding back a lot of anger right now.
sorry, I can't seem to get past this.
does anyone mind if Rebecca just totally vents right now? she's quoting herself.
OK R., let'er rip!
-ell
Yes, please Reebs, go head. get it out. we are not here to judge. n loves and understands you. so do others here. we are here for you, my dear friend.
One more vote for "let er rip", Reeb! We want to hear what you have to sayl
Feel free to PM me if you want to talk.
y2g
1. Peeps can't know their true gender at age four
2. Peeps that transition young don't lose much
3. Advanced nations are very open-minded about transsexualism
4. The only transsexual peeps that get killed on the street are those that work as prostitutes
5. Transition is harder for older peeps
6. GRS makes us women or men
Nuff said for now!
1. All trans women are selfish, delusional bitches. 8)
LOL only some of them are.
FFS is not needed to pass. For some of us it is needed.
Quote from: Katia on December 08, 2007, 07:11:50 AM
Quote from: Seshatneferw on December 08, 2007, 06:44:44 AM
The categories TS, TV, AG etc. can be defined clearly, are absolutely separate, and the criteria do not overlap at all.
:-\
Nfr
yup. outside you can define yourself as you want. while you are here, you must include yourself in any of these terms:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14714.0.html
plain and simple.
Excuse me?
I don't
MUST include myself in anything.
YOU CAN NOT STRIP MY IDENTITY.
I. Will. Not. Let. You.
Biggest Myth Ever:
QuoteMyth = My identity is not valid.
Myth: Identifying as or being out as non-binary is pointless, you'll never be accepted.
My real life friends are all cisgender (as far as I know) apart from one m2f TS. They all accept me just fine. I hang out on a few trans support IRC channels online and the vast majority of people there accept me too (in fact, I'm staff on more than one so I am not just tolerated). Nor do I have any problems with people I don't know, in fact since figuring out what I am and transitioning out of male role I've become one of these people who ends up in conversations with random people on the street.
'You'll never be accepted' needs the word 'here' adding to the end of it, it doesn't apply to my life one bit. If you seem friendly and comfortable with yourself most people feel they can relate to you and don't care what equipment you have or what clothes you wear.
(Mind you, it does help to live in a country that isn't full of bigots)
That can't be your piccie. You look like a genetic girl ::)
Transsexual girls don't look like GG's. (too universal..some don't but some do)
I didn't do much to achieve a passable feminine voice. I was kinda born with it
.
My hands and feet are smaller than the average biological male. I must be some kinda intersex (N is going to love this one :laugh:)
Transsexual men don't like men (too universal.. some don't but some do)
Estrogen makes me feel like a woman. Really? you mean you weren't a woman before HRT.
Primary transsexualism is a myth >:D
Quote from: Andra on December 09, 2007, 04:01:14 AM
(Mind you, it does help to live in a country that isn't full of bigots)
Andra,
What country is that? The one I live in is getting overrun with them >:(
y2g
Quote from: Jeannette on December 09, 2007, 06:41:09 AM
I didn't do much to achieve a passable feminine voice. I was kinda born with it
Jealous? My voice sucks but my SO used to get ma'amed on the phone long before they came out or transitioned (without trying). Go figure...
Quote from: y2gender on December 09, 2007, 07:26:42 AM
Quote from: Andra on December 09, 2007, 04:01:14 AM
(Mind you, it does help to live in a country that isn't full of bigots)
Andra,
What country is that? The one I live in is getting overrun with them >:(
y2g
Not sure about countries, but there are definitely more accepting places out there. . .
Any statement that starts with "Everyone" or "Noone" is a myth...
"everyone needs ffs"
"noone needs ffs"
"everyone can pass"
"noone can pass"
etc.
Quote from: Alison on December 09, 2007, 03:57:43 AM
Excuse me?
I don't MUST include myself in anything.
YOU CAN NOT STRIP MY IDENTITY.
huh ??? is someone here trying to do that, alison? do they actually have the power to "strip your identity"? did you even click on the link? every possible identity is described there. oh but what am i saying? you're a mod, you should know.
Quote from: Alison on December 09, 2007, 03:57:43 AM
I. Will. Not. Let. You.
of course you wouldn't. who would. if someone were trying to strip my identity, i'd be angry too & would leave that place in a flash. it's called
dignity.
Quote from: Alison on December 09, 2007, 07:35:48 AM
Not sure about countries, but there are definitely more accepting places out there. . .
"more accepting places" than??
Quote from: Katia on December 09, 2007, 08:10:12 AM
huh ??? is someone here trying to do that, alison? do they actually have the power to "strip your identity"? did you even click on the link? every possible identity is described there. oh but what am i saying? you're a mod, you should know.
The fact that you think a list like that can encompass every possible gender identity is amusing to say the least. Even more so when certain identities fairly common among non-cisgender people are actively derided on this site.
Quote from: Katia on December 09, 2007, 08:10:12 AM
huh ??? is someone here trying to do that, alison? do they actually have the power to "strip your identity"? did you even click on the link? every possible identity is described there. oh but what am i saying? you're a mod, you should know.
Nope, no one has the power to strip it, no matter now hard people try. I wonder why I threaten them so badly, I'm fairly innocuous.
And how can every <i> possible </i> identity be described on a webpage on the internet? :o Seems rather impossible to me.
Quote from: Katia on December 09, 2007, 08:10:12 AM
Quote from: Alison on December 09, 2007, 03:57:43 AM
I. Will. Not. Let. You.
of course you wouldn't. who would. if someone were trying to strip my identity, i'd be angry too & would leave that place in a flash. it's called dignity.
Are you suggesting I leave Katia?
Quote from: Katia on December 09, 2007, 08:10:12 AM
"more accepting places" than??
Than less accepting places, duh ;)
*edit* - 8:30am and no sleep makes Alison spell bad :P
Quote from: Alison on December 09, 2007, 08:30:50 AM
Are you suggesting I leave Katia?
no i'm not suggesting anything. i was merely pointing out what i (me, katia) would do. fyi i don't feel threatened by you. why should i? i have my identity, you've got yours. we may not agree all the time but that doesn't mean we feel threatened. just a thought. anyway..
Transmen have it easy.
One lot has it easier than another
Something I wrote in a previous topic in response to such notions:
Quote from: link=topic=22813.msg173187#msg173187 date=1197165575
it's easier in terms of the fact that the vast majority of transphobic discrimination and violence is perpetrated against transwomen.
i don't know about others, but the fact i am seen as a woman instead of a man is devastating for me. i have nothing at all against the queer community, but i am tired of the 'dyke' stares and comments. i don't like going out with a woman and being seen as her lesbian lover.
i am not a dyke. i am not a butch. i am not a woman period.
the experiences of transmen and transwomen are different. one does not have it better or easier than another.
unpassable transwoman (those who don't look like women, for those who dislike the term 'passable') are more likely to face transphobia.
unpassable transmen have no way of declaring their manhood other than vocalizing to people that they are male. there is nothing an unpassable transman can do to make it clear they are presenting as male.
testesterone takes a more savage toll on a woman than estrogen on a man. thus, many of the effects of testosterone on transwomen cannot be rectified and are hard to overcome.
transmen do not have the option of truly fixing their bodies. the options available leave a guy with poor results. even the best outcome (meta) leaves a guy looking abnormal down there at best.
i've come to terms with my genitals, but this still remains a great source of pain for many transman. even if other men sharing the locker room have no clue he's trans, there will still be stares and maybe questions. he will never look like a normal man down below.
imagine your only surgical option being an obviously malformed vagina.
most transwomen need SRS to be whole. but transmen's genital surgery does not leave one whole.
the lack of a penis is a great source of pain and dysphoria for many transmen. how could it not be? when all of society says manhood equals a penis?
sexism cuts both ways. feminine men are demonized, imagine how a man without a dick feels.
i used to think transwomen were luckier. i thought there could be no more degrading position than to be a man born female. then i realized it was beyond arrogant of me to assume my hardships were greater than anyone else's.
a really tacky cliche, but true: the grass is always greener on the other side.
and none of this is to discount the world-wide violence against transwomen, which troubles me greatly.
Posted on: December 08, 2007, 08:14:25 PM
One more thing i'd like to point out:
Transmen are not necessarily strangers to violent crime. I may not have experienced transphobic violence, but i know what it is to rely on your wits to get out of rape and possible murder. i know what it is to targeted for robbery because of appearing to be female.
Posted on: December 09, 2007, 09:48:13 AM
Quote from: Jeannette on December 09, 2007, 06:41:09 AM
My hands and feet are smaller than the average biological male. I must be some kinda intersex (N is going to love this one :laugh:)
Exactly. That goes along with the myth that if one can somehow claim to be intersexed or that they never had a normal body of their birth sex, it validates transition and is 'proof' of their identity.
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 09, 2007, 02:16:45 AM
1. All trans women are selfish, delusional bitches. 8)
LOL only some of them are.
This was funny. :laugh:
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 05:08:48 PM
Myth = My identity is not valid. >:( >:(
Truth = I'm the one who knows myself. No one else does.
I'm holding back a lot of anger right now.
I don't feel anger at it. I feel smug amusement.
I know something you don't know, I feel something you don't feel, I am something you don't accept,
all good stuff
Quote from: Alison on December 09, 2007, 03:57:43 AM
Quote from: Katia on December 08, 2007, 07:11:50 AM
Quote from: Seshatneferw on December 08, 2007, 06:44:44 AM
The categories TS, TV, AG etc. can be defined clearly, are absolutely separate, and the criteria do not overlap at all.
:-\
Nfr
yup. outside you can define yourself as you want. while you are here, you must include yourself in any of these terms:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14714.0.html
plain and simple.
Excuse me?
I don't MUST include myself in anything.
YOU CAN NOT STRIP MY IDENTITY.
I. Will. Not. Let. You.
Biggest Myth Ever:
QuoteMyth = My identity is not valid.
Alison reminded me of what I am angry about.
I am a human being. I will make my own destiny. I will not be invalidated and I will not disappear in order to make others comfortable or secure. Short of killing me, no one else can define who I am.
Posted on: December 09, 2007, 10:45:09 AM
Quote from: y2gender on December 09, 2007, 07:26:42 AM
Quote from: Andra on December 09, 2007, 04:01:14 AM
(Mind you, it does help to live in a country that isn't full of bigots)
Andra,
What country is that? The one I live in is getting overrun with them >:(
y2g
And, not only are they bigots, but they smell funny too.
Posted on: December 09, 2007, 10:51:03 AM
Quote from: Pica Pica on December 09, 2007, 10:42:52 AM
Quote from: Rebis on December 08, 2007, 05:08:48 PM
Myth = My identity is not valid. >:( >:(
Truth = I'm the one who knows myself. No one else does.
I'm holding back a lot of anger right now.
I don't feel anger at it. I feel smug amusement.
I know something you don't know, I feel something you don't feel, I am something you don't accept,
all good stuff
I'm going to move into the smug amusement line.
Thanks for the tip. :)
Quote from: Rebis on December 09, 2007, 10:55:41 AM
And, not only are they bigots, but they smell funny too.
Not only that, but their sense of fashion and style is absolutely atrocious! >:D
y2g
Re: Myths in our community that need to die a quick death
That we all look like drag queens and wear heavy make up!
I'm not sure if you mean myths *within* the community, or *about* it, so I'll do both, lol...
- It's all about the clothes
- A desire to wear women's clothes means one is a transsexual
- Therapists and The Community coerce us into this cult
- It's just a lifestyle of getting together with other TSs for sex and drugs
- "Oh... so you're gay?"
- TSs never remain married
- It's just a mid-life crisis (or experiment if younger)
- HRT has little effect on older TSs
- Passing and Acceptance are the same thing
~Kate~
Quote from: Katia on December 09, 2007, 08:36:51 AM
Quote from: Alison on December 09, 2007, 08:30:50 AM
Are you suggesting I leave Katia?
no i'm not suggesting anything. i was merely pointing out what i (me, katia) would do. fyi i don't feel threatened by you. why should i? i have my identity, you've got yours. we may not agree all the time but that doesn't mean we feel threatened. just a thought. anyway..
I guess my theory is when people don't understand I try to educate them. Not run away.
If everyone runs away all the time, no one would understand anything right?
Oh yes, the transgender lifestyle <hates that term with a passion>
And let's not forget our transgender agenda (like we could even agree on it if we had one)
y2g
I like the TS Agenda too. Its not like we can agree on lunch, or pants vs. skirt, much less a political plan for subverting all that is good and holy in the world.
I think the trans-agenda was a piece of paper of a planned meeting that didn't happen because everyone was busy, it wasn't even a complete agenda, it just said 'apologies'.
hey speaking of ppl that smell funny, i could name quite a few that don't only smell funny but look it too >:D
Posted on: December 09, 2007, 07:08:27 PM
Quote from: Alison on December 09, 2007, 04:39:59 PM
I guess my theory is when people don't understand I try to educate them. Not run away.
If everyone runs away all the time, no one would understand anything right?
i see your point but that's not for you to decide. if ppl wan to "run away", that's their choice & if i want to "educate" them, i'd find a place where ppl actually want to be "educated" about whatever i'm trying to teach.
Katia it isn't for you to decide either, if folks don't want to read my (or anyone elses) posts they don't have to.
Though it was you that said:
Quote from: Katia on December 09, 2007, 08:10:12 AM
of course you wouldn't. who would. if someone were trying to strip my identity, i'd be angry too & would leave that place in a flash. it's called dignity
Implying I have no dignity because I choose to stay and try to educate people comes quite close to a personal attack.
Quoteif ppl wan to "run away", that's their choice & if i want to "educate" them, i'd find a place where ppl actually want to be "educated" about whatever i'm trying to teach.
If "ppl" don't want to hear what I have to say, they don't have to listen.
Reading all of the myths and what people had to say about terms and such, well, it just humoured me in a way. Our Mayor told the city council that if the trans community can not be 100% together then I think we need more education and that the bill will be tabled. There is no way we all can think a like. We are not alike and we view life differently. Myths and terms all need to be burned. I'm not a term or a myth. I'm a person who is just trying to get along in this life.
Sheila
My pet peeves:
- "You can't change biology. Your chromosomes determine your sex."
- "Transsexualism is a learned behaviour." ... and how would little kids learn this? I asked a church official, when he flatly told me this, just how many group sessions he thought it would take amongst a group of transsexuals before he could be convinced to cut off his penis. He turned red and squished down in his seat.
- "God is against this" ...and just how do they know what God wants? Do they have his phone number?
- "It's a lifestyle choice" let me tell you sister, this was no choice for me. It was transition or suicide. Either of these paths were perfectly viable to me. For me "transition or suicide" was definitely NOT a myth.
- "You will always be a man, a mutilated man, but still a man" ... in your mind's eye. My perception is my reality.... not yours.
- .... and the worst.... "It's a sexually deviant behavior." Excuse me but there are a good number of us who have no interest in sex at all. Not all of us... but a significant share... perhaps the asexual percentage is noticeably higher in transgenders than in any other population. I wonder why this is?
Cindi
Quote from: Alison on December 10, 2007, 04:20:46 AM
Katia it isn't for you to decide either, if folks don't want to read my (or anyone elses) posts they don't have to.
Though it was you that said:
Quote from: Katia on December 09, 2007, 08:10:12 AM
of course you wouldn't. who would. if someone were trying to strip my identity, i'd be angry too & would leave that place in a flash. it's called dignity
Implying I have no dignity because I choose to stay and try to educate people comes quite close to a personal attack.
it'd be a personal attack if i were saying "you" had no dignity. i said "i'd be angry too & would leave that place in a flash" but you know what, you can take it as you want. and one more thing, as a mod, you are supposed to be enforcing the site rules (including this site definitions) not disputing them..
Hmm,
I'm new here.
But If I had to say which myths in and arround/about our community that NEED to die a very quick death...
#1: Trans. people are pervs, that just want to sneak into restrooms so they can see girls naked.
-Yeah, that one needs to die.
#2: Taking herbal supplements like phyto-estrogen is dangerous, and/or innefective.
-This one really gets me riled up, as I use herbals just fine.
#3: All trans. people are depressed and/or at risk for suicide, and/or need therapy.
-Well excuse me! I'm sorry, I know our numbers are high compared to other focus groups, and it is a real problem for many in our community; -but not all! Some don't have these sort of issues, and it can be frustrating to hear the FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) all the time! It tends to lead people to thinking that those who aren't are lying, and/or just being arrogant or something. It's just not true.
Kill this! Quick!
#4: 20-somethings and younger share the same values and beliefs about being Transgendered as the "old-schoolers", and if we don't, we're just being arrogant, snotty little kids.
-This is not just a transgender issue. This of course applies to everywhere, But my generation in general (Gen Y) does not value the same stuff as any previous generation. We tend to ask "why?" and we don't get an answer, or the answer we get is not satisfying, and/or make sense, we tend to not do it. Period. We tend to be critical thinkers and skeptical, and unintimidated by making change happen. This tends to scare the older Gens, as we just don't "go along with it". We also tend to be pretty pissed and Un-impressed or even down right angry with teh way the previous Gens have run things(global warming, national debt, anyone?). So we speak our mind. And we tend not to care whether anyone else likes what we have to say or not. Some things need to be said (like Pro life, Pro War???). That said, we base our respect for our elders off their actions, and not their seniority (we think respect is earned and natural based on one's actions, not entitled)
-So generally when we disagree, we say so. And often loudly.
-One thing regarding sensitivity for us (gen Y and younger). Previous generations (especially generation x) tended to (and do) regard therapists, therapy, psychology, councilling and psychiatry very highly. We (my gen) tend not to, and in some cases are extremely and very, VERY hostile towards the subject and /or even the suggestion. Especially those of us who are transgendered. Many of us were forcibly hospitalized or put in "behavioral modification programs" to try and "modify", shrink, or medicate our transgender-ness out of us. I remember very clearly when the therapists stole my clothes, and I was marched into a room full of age-peers and parents of such to have my own mother (at the therapists suggestion) pull my training bra out of the paper bag where they had stached it, and procede to drape it over her head in an effort to use humilliation to get me to "change my 'innapropreate' behavior". Even thinking about it fills me with rage. I had not yet come out, or even begun to address within myself what I was. This sort of thing is common place with kids therapy and is beyond innapropreate. It deserves prison in my opinion.
I know a lot of my generation who share similar "therapy" experiences.
Which leads to the final myth:
#5: Suggesting Therapy to someone is OK.
-It's not. Especially not to those of us who had it forced on us as children. And of the transgendered youth that's probably most of us.
Be REALLY careful with this! Approach the subject REALLY carefully when talking to someone 20-ish and younger. We were therapied enough! To us, this is like asking us if we have found Jesus. Keep your religious, and Psychological beliefs to yourself unless you know it's ok to talk about! You are guaranteed to get along with Generation Y much better that way!
-Some thoughts
-Sarah
Hmmm... most of the things I wanted to say have already been said...but..
* MTF transsexuals are just super sissies who chose to become women because they couldn't cut it as men.
* Sex between a FTM and a MTF is considered lesbian sex.
* A FTM who has had bottom surgery is considered post-op.
* A pre-op MTF transsexual is a man.
* SRS is a body modification not a medical necessity.
* There is no primary and secondary transsexualism. (thank you Jeannette ;))
* FTM transsexuals are just butch lesbians who want to take advantage of the so precious male privilege.
* MTF transsexuals started as cross-dressers or used to cross-dress as children.
* All FTM transsexuals are short in stature.
* A transsexual is a ->-bleeped-<-
* A neo-vagina is constructed by excising the penis.
* A MTF transsexual is neither a woman nor female, but simply a feminized male.
* A MTF transsexual who is sexually attracted to other females or a FTM transsexual who is attracted to other males is not a true transsexual.
* A TS with serious psychological and/or social problems cannot be a true TS or stable enough to attempt cross-living and/or surgery.
* Transsexualism is not a medical condition.
* Transsexuals should not be allowed to change the way God made their bodies.
* Transsexuals do not have the same opportunities and rights as anyone else.
* There are more MTF's than FTM's
tink :icon_chick:
Hi Sarah,
You sound angry. I like that. Don't let the establishment eat you.
Peace,
Rebis
Quote from: Rebis on December 10, 2007, 09:41:53 PM
Hi Sarah,
You sound angry. I like that. Don't let the establishment eat you.
Peace,
Rebis
LOL
Yeah, sorry!
Talking about therapy gets me riled up. I know what it's like to be abused by a therapist!
By the way don't get me wrong, I know it's very helpful for some people, and I am privledged to soem good friends who are therapists, but it isn't appropreate for everybody, and for some (especially us youger folks) it tends to bring up a lot of anger.
Be warned! LOL :D
Anyway, I try not to be angry, but there ARE plenty of idiots, bigots, and arrogant funk-heads, that seem to want me otherwise!
LOL :D
anyway thanks!
-Sarah
Quote from: Katia on December 10, 2007, 05:10:58 PM
it'd be a personal attack if i were saying "you" had no dignity. i said "i'd be angry too & would leave that place in a flash" but you know what, you can take it as you want. and one more thing, as a mod, you are supposed to be enforcing the site rules (including this site definitions) not disputing them..
I'm not disputing any rules Katia.
Re: the site definitions, well my identity isn't listed there, and I don't presume to say that everyone elses is as well, it's a list on the internet, it's ridiculous to think it includes every possible identity. I don't see how mentioning that my identity isn't listed there (and that does NOT mean that I don't exist or that I'm lying, or pretending or whatever else) means that I'm 'disputing rules'. It IS against the rules to argue about the definitions posted, which I'm not doing in the least.
Quote from: Katia on December 08, 2007, 07:11:50 AMwhile you are here, you must include yourself in any of these terms:
I repeat: I don't <b> "must" </b> include myself in anything. Got it? It doesn't say anywhere that I do.
Wow Tink... after all that had been proffered, you had quite a list to share!
Cindi
Erm, looking back it seems that there's one point in Katia's response that merits a public answer.
Quote from: Katia on December 08, 2007, 07:11:50 AM
while you are here, you must include yourself in any of these terms:
I believe this is the first I've heard of such a requirement. In fact, looking at the list, it would seem a bit restrictive to say that everyone here
must be either transgendered or a significant other of someone who is -- yes, those who have a more distant interest in us are a small minority over here, but I don't see a reason to exclude them.
That aside, when the list was compiled last summer my understanding was that it was done mainly to get an agreement on the most common terms, not to make an exhaustive list of possible identities. Yes, most of us fit in at least two categories (the very inclusive one of
transgender and one of the more specific ones), but there may be
- people who do not fit in any of the (sub-)categories,
- people who arguably fit in more than one,
- people who are chronically unsure where they fit, and
- people who desire a more fine-grained description for their identity.
All this, of course, can be stated in the form of yet another myth:
The official terms for this forum are
all one needs to describe gender.
(Please note that by claiming that as a myth I am not trying to dispute the terms themselves. I still stand by what I said in June: the terms are good. They just do not cover quite everything.)
Nfr
That different people, TV, CD, GQ, andro, TS, etc., somehow feel less or more pain than the others.
y2g
Myth 1:
You can't be a real woman unless you're feminine.
Myth 2:
You can't be a real woman unless you reject femininity.
Quote from: Hypatia on December 11, 2007, 11:04:45 AM
The generation who made the youth rebellion in the Sixties -- LSD, Black Power, psychedelic rock, hippies, Yippies, Haight-Ashbury, Summer of Love, turn on/tune in/drop out, love beads, make love not war, the generation gap, don't trust anyone over 30, hey hey LBJ, the New Left, the antiwar movement, people who said "groovy" -- was not Gen X. Actually, the Sixties rebels were of the "Baby Boomer" generation. And the 1991 novel Generation X by Douglas Coupland lent its name to the generation that came after the Baby Boomers, i.e. born in the Sixties.
I was among the last of the baby boomers to be born in December of 1962. I read once that the boom ended in 1962.
What if I'm one of the first X's? My whole life will have been a lie just like when I figured out I was transgendered [throws themself into a bed and begins weeping, yet again].
Quote from: Seshatneferw on December 11, 2007, 06:21:54 AM
Erm, looking back it seems that there's one point in Katia's response that merits a public answer.
Quote from: Katia on December 08, 2007, 07:11:50 AM
while you are here, you must include yourself in any of these terms:
I believe this is the first I've heard of such a requirement. In fact, looking at the list, it would seem a bit restrictive to say that everyone here must be either transgendered or a significant other of someone who is -- yes, those who have a more distant interest in us are a small minority over here, but I don't see a reason to exclude them.
That aside, when the list was compiled last summer my understanding was that it was done mainly to get an agreement on the most common terms, not to make an exhaustive list of possible identities. Yes, most of us fit in at least two categories (the very inclusive one of transgender and one of the more specific ones), but there may be
- people who do not fit in any of the (sub-)categories,
- people who arguably fit in more than one,
- people who are chronically unsure where they fit, and
- people who desire a more fine-grained description for their identity.
All this, of course, can be stated in the form of yet another myth:
The official terms for this forum are all one needs to describe gender.
(Please note that by claiming that as a myth I am not trying to dispute the terms themselves. I still stand by what I said in June: the terms are good. They just do not cover quite everything.)
Nfr
Nfr is correct. You do not have to identify as one of the defined terms to be welcome on this site. The terms and definitions are simply there so when we talk about something, we are all on the same page (as much as possible). You can just be you and be welcome here. Definitions are not meant to box people in, they're meant to facilitate discussion.
Dennis
Quote from: redfish on December 11, 2007, 09:18:45 AM
I think therapy can be a really good thing, though I'm not sure if I'm Y or Z. Maybe I'm in between or something.
I've never had a therapy session and in the U.K it's not available on the NHS...I'm not sure if it will help and I have no idea what would go on or be said at a therapy session. It's strange that some people are not sure about their condition..
Quote from: Berliegh on December 11, 2007, 12:48:54 PM
I've never had a therapy session and in the U.K it's not available on the NHS...I'm not sure if it will help and I have no idea what would go on or be said at a therapy session. It's strange that some people are not sure about their condition..
gol' darn it, Berliegh, why don't you just go and get yourself an appointment already? you keep asking what it's like, what's it for, how it feels, is it good, does it help, and so on. then when i say you should go and find out, why not, you say "well I don't think I'm going to go, after all...
a) my psychiatrist prescribes medicine that helps with my depression.
b) my therapist helps me with moving toward living full-time. and helped me get my HRT. and maybe saved my life.
that's about it. if you don't need help with any of those things, you probably don't need items a) or b)
-ell
There is some disagreement as to the precise beginning and ending dates of the post-war baby boom, but the range most commonly accepted is 1946 to 1964
Generation X is a term used to describe generations in many countries around the world which were born between 1965 and 1980.
The term Generation Y first appeared in an August 1993 magazine AD Age editorial to describe those children born between 1981–1995.
Those are pretty much the accepted dates in history and social science. (from Wiki)
Yeah, the definitions of CD, Androgyne, whatever, are there so
we've got a common ground when discussing.
If you do not agree with any of the definitions you can
easily classify yourself outside these boundaries.
As for phyto's being dangerous, I'm afraid its not a myth because:
- They are unregulated (so you don't know what your getting, or what's the concentration, or how it was produced)
- Their bio-activity is feable and it takes big doses to get a decent effect, the problem is that they have hundreds of other components than the main ones and in big quantity, one or many may be toxic.
Aside from the possible problems, the cost to effectiveness ratio is really bad compared to oral estrogens, 20-50 times worse at least. That means your spending a lot more money for less effects.
The real myth is that phyto's are safer than pharmaceutical estrogens. Even at their much lower activity levels, all the other problems in the
way they are administered make them less safe.
The ironic thing is that if your using phyto's while using estrogen, you'll decrease estrogen's effects because some phyto's will have bound to E receptors and they have a weaker activity than estrogen at those receptors.
Quote from: Keira on December 11, 2007, 03:42:23 PM
The ironic thing is that if your using phyto's while using estrogen, you'll decrease estrogen's effects because some phyto's will have bound to E receptors and they have a weaker activity than estrogen at those receptors.
Okay, this may sound like a dumb question: What are phyto's?
plant based (not chemically transformed) estrogens.
Some plant compounds have estrogenic activity.
Many of the commercial estrogens have a plant source,
but the compounds are then chemically transformed
into a more potent form.
-male-to-female transsexuals have been socialized as men, and this socialization cannot be changed
-male-to-female transsexuals have been raised as boys, have never been oppressed as women, and cannot understand women's oppression
-transsexuals have surgery so they can have sex the way they want to
-male-to-female transsexuals are trying to take over the lesbian community
-transsexuals are guilty of deception when they don't reveal right away that they are transsexuals
-transsexualism is unnatural. its a new problem brought about by sophisticated technology
i'll think of more eventually..
1. Transsexuality can be cured by psychotherapy
2. Taking testosterone makes trans men much more aggressive and angry than they were before taking hormones
3. Peeps that are transsexual can usually be identified by certain mannerisms or physical characteristics
4. Traanssexuals were sexually abused as children
5. Peeps that are transsexual have made a conscious decision to be that way
6. Transsexuality is a type of mental illness
7. Transsexuals die younger than the average non-transsexual person
8. Hormones without doctor's supervison does not kill
9. GRS is obtainable without following the Harry Benjamin Standards
10. GRS creates internal reproductive organs
Got to disagree about number two. Seen it a few times now. T is very agro, very powerful. Not sure about the anger, but whatever anger they had, will be magnified. But the agressive part, for sure, based on my own experience. And that is not a bad thing.
And that number nine deal. That is so last century. I know all sort of doctors who do not follow the HBS deal. At least here.
T makes you more encline to express angrt only if your already angry,
same as for Genetic men. You don't see men angry all the time
do you?
I've had many FTM in support groups and they are not
angry or aggressive at all, they're more mellow than
when they were pre hormones. Probably because
they are more at ease with themselves, which
makes them less angry.
I disagree on the unsupervised hormones killing you too.
That's a big myth. I know at least 100 people personally who did it and none have any health problems at all. And why would they, estrogen's in half the human race, is it killing them. Its the general dangerous behavior of those that are using street hormones (including injecting silicone) that's killing people. The hormones themselves are incidental. I won't go further into this because it is discouraged here, but with info, its no more dangerous than with a doctor because most doctors don't know crap about hormone used in TG, and even those that know get their info in the same studies I can read publicly.
Ell:
I wasn't intending to be insulting. I am just blunt.
If they tell me they fell insulted, I will apologize and clarify.
Steph:
Yeah, baby boomers are fine. They tend to be pretty well balanced, not perfect, but not insane either.
Gen x went crazy. Maybe they had to, the war was going on, and someone needed to stop it, the whole world went crazy then. But it did seem to have a lasting effect on that generation for the worse I'm afraid. On the one hand while they made a lot of noise in the sixties, they didn't get a lot done. I would say about half of them tend to be un-grounded, emracing every new idea, or scientific discovery, or alternative medicine or quasi spiritual thing like it is the latest fix -yet they don't often stay the commited to anything and tend to think "free love" means they should be able to do whatever they like.. The rest seem to have progressively diminished into a conservative rut on the extreme end. Even if they are liberal. These type tend to call themselves Democrats for instance, and be against global warming, trade problems, etc, yet drive a mercedies SUV and havn't ridden their bike in years. Of the rest, the most of the remainder seem to have found Jesus and think fertilized eggs deserve the full rights of citizens. Which leaves probably one percent left of a handfull of every other sort immagiable . They tend not to agree on anything ever, and end up not addressing serious problems when they need quick action as they prefer lots of covoluted ideas of "community organization" or think that voting for a polititian is an effective way of dealing with an immediate crisis. They also tend to be unwilling to make ay sort of sacrifice that may effect their lifestyle no matter how urgent or nessicary it is. In long and short, they make a lot of noise, love to talk about change needed and "commitee actions" and get nothing done and are unwilling to make the hard changes nessicary to make it happen or do the hard work needed.
"Adults are obsolete children and the hell with them" -Dr. Suess
"The young do not know enough to be prudent, and so they attempt the impossible generation after generation, and achieve it" -Pearl S. Buck
Quote from: Keira on December 11, 2007, 11:39:11 PM
T makes you more encline to express angrt only if your already angry,
same as for Genetic men. You don't see men angry all the time
do you?
I've had many FTM in support groups and they are not
angry or aggressive at all, they're more mellow than
when they were pre hormones. Probably because
they are more at ease with themselves, which
makes them less angry.
yep Keira's right. if ur an angry dude b4 T, u'll be worse after T. Most trans dudes are ok though b/c we're happier w/our lives. I got a few more myths
T will make u grow taller
T will make ur breasts disappear
If u stop T after top surgery, ur breasts will grow back
T will make u gay (I've heard this b4. crazy stuff)
T wil make ur hands & feet bigger
If u take more T, u will change faster than someone that takes less T
Its easy to tell who is a trans man
All trans men come from the lesbian community (I said this already :laugh:)
Trans men are not men b/c they cant produce sperm
Phallo is the only surgeyr that makes u a man legally
Bio dudes can always tell who is a trans man
All trans men have bottom surgery
Trans men hate bio dudes
I think thats it.
I'll give you a good example of what I am talking about.
This is from my friends blog. He is like a 56 year old gay guy:
" Lou Dobbs, the one trick pony
well now Lou Dobbs is amerikas leading authority on imigration policy, was he appointed by God is he amerikas choice or is he just another radio talk show host who found a pony to ride to the land of Rush Limbaughs world of media riches and prescription drug nirvana.
for 5 years or so he has had an hour of CNN time, pretty primo face time in the land of celebrity news commentaors, he has a dedicated staff of true believers who ferret out examples of outrageous immigration behavior and tout those events as the norm. Lou Dobbs is defending the amerikan middle class by golly , he says, like the american middle class needs a daddy to defend them from being raped by poor immigrants who will shovel manure for 10 bucks an hour. The american middle class is its own worst enemy, voting for born again republican ->-bleeped-<-s who sell their birthrights to the lowest bidder in Asia, a free market economy of de-escalating wages and lousy human rights, destructive ecological and false monetary policies.
Lou is about 40 lbs short of achieving his dream of being Rush Limbaughs butt-baby.
Has this guy gotten fat or does the hot air he spouts just bloat his face so it appears he has 5 chins? You want a cheap macdonalds salad bar, you better get on your hands and knees and thank some immigrant stoop laborer , who is willing to kill himself to give his kids a better chance at life. Oh sure there are plenty of crytsal-meth smuggling buggers to keep Lou busy finding the worst examples of Mexican Immigration til hell freezes over or his arteries finally blow out, but they are selling it to americas kids cause mommy and daddy are to busy buying a new (SUV, Wide screen HDTV, Second Home, Swimming Pool, Hot Tub European vacation, Whatever), to raise them with any hope or ethical standards to speak of."
-That pretty much summs it up.
My problem with the hippies is that they tend to not back their high ideals with action.
They seem afraid of moderate, hard work.
They are also the generation running for president.
I'll give this to them: They got civil rights for black people. And improved rights for women.
They deserve all the credit they will ever get and more for that.
But we need them now.
Not 1965.
And it concerrns me greatly that they do not have the courage, the ability, or the inner strength to do what is nessicary to face immediate challenges like Global warming, Glbt civil rights, Immmigration reform, Medical reform, forign policy reform, etc.
We have already seen Congress wuss out on passing a "binding" resolution to end the current war.
They like to make a lot of noise and point fingers at the other guys when the bill that was never gonna pass gets vetod, but they new it was not going to pass in the first place. Just more noise and talk. and finger pointing. No walk.
Quote from: Sarah on December 12, 2007, 12:07:31 AM
Ell:
I wasn't intending to be insulting. I am just blunt.
If they tell me they fell insulted, I will apologize and clarify.
well, there were a lot of things you said that were pretty offensive. ever see
Girl, Interrupted? no offense, but you could have really played Angelina Jolie's part. and you're so defensive about the whole therapy thing, which, may i infer, means you're not currently seeing a psychiatrist, and you're not on any meds, correct? your hostility on this point is so fierce that it seems your temper is sometimes capable of almost getting out of control. right?
like you, i've had a bad experience with a psychiatrist. the man had no compassion at all, and prescribed a drug which nearly drove me to the edge. and, also like you, i allowed that bad experience to drive me away from all psychiatrists and all therapists. so i suffered for nearly 20 years with depression and GID with
no treatment, and i can't tell you many times i no longer felt like living. it was hellish, and
that almost drove me to the edge, too.
anyway, when i couldn't stand it any longer, i finally went to a gender therapist, and she sent me to a psychiatrist to start dealing with my depression. in some ways, this new psychiatrist was worse than that other guy, 20 years ago. but i didn't just run away from the problem this time. when she prescribed a drug that i didn't like, i told her flat out what the problem was: this one helps my depression, but it's causing me to lose sleep. this other one has a scary list of side effects, and i'm not taking it. and she prescribed different medicine. she's prescribed five different drugs and i've rejected four of them, and the one i've kept, i reduced my own dosage from 40 mg per day to 20 mg per day. so i've taken a much more proactive approach this time, and i'm just as much involved in managing my depression as my psychiatrist is.
-ell
Your points folks would be much easier to
understand if any of you used paragraphs!!!
Please, I can't read 50 line paragraphs, maybe its
because I'm getting old, or simply because its
impossible!!
Quote from: Sarah on December 12, 2007, 01:00:34 AM
I'll give you a good example of what I am talking about.
This is from my friends blog. He is like a 56 year old gay guy:
" Lou Dobbs, the one trick pony
well now Lou Dobbs is amerikas leading authority on imigration policy, was he appointed by God is he amerikas choice or is he just another radio talk show host who found a pony to ride to the land of Rush Limbaughs world of media riches and prescription drug nirvana.
for 5 years or so he has had an hour of CNN time, pretty primo face time in the land of celebrity news commentaors, he has a dedicated staff of true believers who ferret out examples of outrageous immigration behavior and tout those events as the norm. Lou Dobbs is defending the amerikan middle class by golly , he says, like the american middle class needs a daddy to defend them from being raped by poor immigrants who will shovel manure for 10 bucks an hour. The american middle class is its own worst enemy, voting for born again republican ->-bleeped-<-s who sell their birthrights to the lowest bidder in Asia, a free market economy of de-escalating wages and lousy human rights, destructive ecological and false monetary policies.
Lou is about 40 lbs short of achieving his dream of being Rush Limbaughs butt-baby.
Has this guy gotten fat or does the hot air he spouts just bloat his face so it appears he has 5 chins? You want a cheap macdonalds salad bar, you better get on your hands and knees and thank some immigrant stoop laborer , who is willing to kill himself to give his kids a better chance at life. Oh sure there are plenty of crytsal-meth smuggling buggers to keep Lou busy finding the worst examples of Mexican Immigration til hell freezes over or his arteries finally blow out, but they are selling it to americas kids cause mommy and daddy are to busy buying a new (SUV, Wide screen HDTV, Second Home, Swimming Pool, Hot Tub European vacation, Whatever), to raise them with any hope or ethical standards to speak of."
-That pretty much summs it up.
My problem with the hippies is that they tend to not back their high ideals with action.
They seem afraid of moderate, hard work.
They are also the generation running for president.
I'll give this to them: They got civil rights for black people. And improved rights for women.
They deserve all the credit they will ever get and more for that.
But we need them now.
Not 1965.
And it concerrns me greatly that they do not have the courage, the ability, or the inner strength to do what is nessicary to face immediate challenges like Global warming, Glbt civil rights, Immmigration reform, Medical reform, forign policy reform, etc.
We have already seen Congress wuss out on passing a "binding" resolution to end the current war.
They like to make a lot of noise and point fingers at the other guys when the bill that was never gonna pass gets vetod, but they new it was not going to pass in the first place. Just more noise and talk. and finger pointing. No walk.
And this is all relevant how?
Quote from: Chris on December 12, 2007, 12:47:11 AM
T will make u gay (I've heard this b4. crazy stuff)
I'd like to open this one up to:
It's a myth that being transgendered has anything to do with sexuality at all.. A lot of people seem to think your sexuality will change.
Quote from: Valentina on December 11, 2007, 10:33:23 PM
8. Hormones without doctor's supervison does not kill
9. GRS is obtainable without following the Harry Benjamin Standards
These seem false.
I think >50% of the transpeople I know irl have started by self-medication and it typically
causes no ill effects, when the dosages are reasonable. Having a doctor does not make
things safe either.
GRS is obtainable in some cases without following Harry Benjamin Standards. And different
countries and surgeons have different rules which can differ from HBSOC.
Quote from: Sarah on December 12, 2007, 01:00:34 AM
-That pretty much summs it up.
My problem with the hippies is that they tend to not back their high ideals with action.
They seem afraid of moderate, hard work.
They are also the generation running for president.
I'll give this to them: They got civil rights for black people. And improved rights for women.
They deserve all the credit they will ever get and more for that.
But we need them now.
Not 1965.
And it concerrns me greatly that they do not have the courage, the ability, or the inner strength to do what is nessicary to face immediate challenges like Global warming, Glbt civil rights, Immmigration reform, Medical reform, forign policy reform, etc.
We have already seen Congress wuss out on passing a "binding" resolution to end the current war.
They like to make a lot of noise and point fingers at the other guys when the bill that was never gonna pass gets vetod, but they new it was not going to pass in the first place. Just more noise and talk. and finger pointing. No walk.
You're giving hippies the credit for what people from The Lost Generation and WWII did.
You try doing all this when you're taking care of your elderly parents and your children's children and holding down a job and trying to keep your spouse from leaving you
These are not really hippies. They are establishment clowns who probably got high but were otherwise straight and who, as we now know, suffer a disorder called "being Square"
Just my opinions. If they evoke anger, please take it out on a hippie or one of their square friends.
Quote from: ell on December 12, 2007, 01:20:21 AM
Quote from: Sarah on December 12, 2007, 12:07:31 AM
Ell:
I wasn't intending to be insulting. I am just blunt.
If they tell me they fell insulted, I will apologize and clarify.
well, there were a lot of things you said that were pretty offensive. ever see Girl, Interrupted? no offense, but you could have really played Angelina Jolie's part. and you're so defensive about the whole therapy thing, which, may i infer, means you're not currently seeing a psychiatrist, and you're not on any meds, correct? your hostility on this point is so fierce that it seems your temper is sometimes capable of almost getting out of control. right?
Well there's a myth: "if you are angry about psychology/psychiatry it's because you need therapy"!
LOL
El, a lot of people have died as a result of the drugs their therapist prescribed to them.
The list of drugs that have been pulled from the market of killing people or causeing permanent bodily damage is a mile long!
Wasn't it pozac that has been found to cause people to become temporarily hommicidal?
I know people personaly who got liver dammage, and dangerous side effects from the drugs they were taking.
I have never met
anyone who has been
cured(their syptoms are completely set to rest) with it.
If you know of someone, please tell me.
I DO know of many people who
have had their symptoms cured by their meditation or yoga practice. Or by doing something as simple as changing their lifestyle or the way they eat.
A gender therapist can be helpful. So can good ol fassioned counciling. So can a lot of other things.
There are a lot of effective ways of dealing with problems and challenges that come up in life that actually work.
Those two fields are not among them. If they worked, I wouldn't have a problem with them.
-Sarah
Posted on: December 12, 2007, 04:26:23 PM
Quote from: Keira on December 11, 2007, 03:42:23 PM
As for phyto's being dangerous, I'm afraid its not a myth because:
- They are unregulated (so you don't know what your getting, or what's the concentration, or how it was produced)
- Their bio-activity is feable and it takes big doses to get a decent effect, the problem is that they have hundreds of other components than the main ones and in big quantity, one or many may be toxic.
Aside from the possible problems, the cost to effectiveness ratio is really bad compared to oral estrogens, 20-50 times worse at least. That means your spending a lot more money for less effects.
The real myth is that phyto's are safer than pharmaceutical estrogens. Even at their much lower activity levels, all the other problems in the
way they are administered make them less safe.
Keira: do you have any hard evidence of anyones experience that phyto-estrogen is dangerous? If you do, I'm all ears. Otherwise, this just looks like FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) to me.
They are more expensive and they do take larger doses.
However, I tend to disagree with you on safetey for the Asprin reason: Asprin is toxic. Willow bark (which asprin comes from) is not. The reason asprin is toxic is that the chemical process used to make it removes the buffers required for safe absorbtion. This has actually led to Buffrin, but is still not safe as their are other compounds in willow bark that ballance the PH and help with absorption.
Same reason applies with Estrogen as far as I am concerned. Phyto-Estrogen is not estrogen, and does not act liek it in the body. It has to be digested, and the procces of breaking it down creates Estrogen (human absorbable). the fact that this occurs in the body, rather than a test tube, guarantees the PH will be correctly ballanced as well as the presence of buffers and other absorption aids (including phyto neutrients).
What you are basicaly saying is that because you have a lack of evidence, that it is better to assume that they are dangerous.
That is an assuption, and there is not a "lack of evidence" on their use. There is quite a bit actually. Fenugreek has been taken for thousands of years for increasing breast size.
If you don't have information, please don't discredit a useful approach for some simply because of personal lack of data.
If you want data, I'd suggest seeing a NaturPathic Doctor (ND) about the subject.
Posted on: December 12, 2007, 04:48:53 PM
Quote from: Rebis on December 12, 2007, 03:27:26 PM
Quote from: Sarah on December 12, 2007, 01:00:34 AM
-That pretty much summs it up.
My problem with the hippies is that they tend to not back their high ideals with action.
They seem afraid of moderate, hard work.
They are also the generation running for president.
I'll give this to them: They got civil rights for black people. And improved rights for women.
They deserve all the credit they will ever get and more for that.
But we need them now.
Not 1965.
And it concerrns me greatly that they do not have the courage, the ability, or the inner strength to do what is nessicary to face immediate challenges like Global warming, Glbt civil rights, Immmigration reform, Medical reform, forign policy reform, etc.
We have already seen Congress wuss out on passing a "binding" resolution to end the current war.
They like to make a lot of noise and point fingers at the other guys when the bill that was never gonna pass gets vetod, but they new it was not going to pass in the first place. Just more noise and talk. and finger pointing. No walk.
Quote
You're giving hippies the credit for what people from The Lost Generation and WWII did.
Really? Darn. I was really trying to give them credit for somthing.
QuoteYou try doing all this when you're taking care of your elderly parents and your children's children and holding down a job and trying to keep your spouse from leaving you
They have a responsibility to our home, earth Rebis. The place where we all live. Like my gen isn't going to have the same issues? They are avoiding responsibility and putting it on my sholders and my peers. It doesn't matter how difficult it is, it needs to be done. Me and my peers will be paying for the previous Gens lifestyle. They are leaving us their debt to shoulder. That is not OK. And they wonder why we are so pissed. We've got good reason to be pissed. They trashed our home, and ran up a huge credit card bill and expect us to pay for it and clean it up.
QuoteThese are not really hippies. They are establishment clowns who probably got high but were otherwise straight and who, as we now know, suffer a disorder called "being Square"
Same gen, and they were elected. By the same gen.
Quote from: Sarah on December 12, 2007, 06:07:42 PM
QuoteYou try doing all this when you're taking care of your elderly parents and your children's children and holding down a job and trying to keep your spouse from leaving you
They have a responsibility to our home, earth Rebis. The place where we all live. Like my gen isn't going to have the same issues? They are avoiding responsibility and putting it on my sholders and my peers. It doesn't matter how difficult it is, it needs to be done. Me and my peers will be paying for the previous Gens lifestyle. They are leaving us their debt to shoulder. That is not OK. And they wonder why we are so pissed. We've got good reason to be pissed. They trashed our home, and ran up a huge credit card bill and expect us to pay for it and clean it up.
QuoteThese are not really hippies. They are establishment clowns who probably got high but were otherwise straight and who, as we now know, suffer a disorder called "being Square"
Same gen, and they were elected. By the same gen.
Don't forget that some of that generation you are smacking around (and I have no problem with that) are the greenpeacers who throw theirselves in front of whaling vessels and do other crazy things to help save the earth. Plus a lot of people (of many nationalities) are in prisons around the world for trying to make changes in hostile countries.
Also the role models like the Ben & Jerry guys who created a business that tries to be environmentally conscious and donate some of their profits to good causes.
As for the evil freaks who keep attaining elected office, it's mostly because people your age do not vote in large numbers. You all have the power to make some kind of change happen even if it's not as much as you want right now, but you don't. The first boob elected U.S. president when the voting age went down to 18 was Richard Nixon.
You kids with your walky-talkys, and your skateboards, and your cell phones, and your downloaded music, and your myspace, and your space age sneakers, and your inability to walk a lousy 5 miles to school, and your disposable razors, and your violent woodstocks, and your pants that won't stay up, and your posters of Bobby Sherman, and your pierced elbows, and...
I forget. I'm old now.
Have fun,
Rebis
I almost forgot. Out of respect for N's thread, this off topic conversation should be split off or started over as a thread of it's own.
transsexual women don't have dignity. wrong! we do!
I was a teenager when the phrase "don't trust anyone over 30" was going around. At some point I noticed that I knew some really cool people who happened to be over 30...
I don't make assumptions about people based on age, gender, etc. There's some really great people around, of all ages, young and old, who are doing everything they can to try and make this world a better place. Those are the people I want to know and work with.
y2gen
Quote from: Sarah on December 12, 2007, 06:07:42 PM
Well there's a myth: "if you are angry about psychology/psychiatry it's because you need therapy"!
LOL
i never said you needed therapy or that psychoactive drugs weren't dangerous. the drug that i was referring to that nearly drove me to the edge was in fact Prozac. i hate that stuff. but there are some people on this site who've said it's really helped them get their depression under control (that's how i feel about Celexa). should i tell the Prozac users that they're idiots? no. it's not for me to say that. if it really helps them get their lives back in order, i say, you go, girl! and i'm happy for them.
meds can be really dangerous, but
so is depression. one has to weigh the risks, you know. so, please don't hate me for being open and honest with you, and for speaking my mind. you demand that right for yourself, don't i have it?
-ell
Ell, I don't hate you!!
I think you are fine.
You are being honest!
Just like I was.
Everybody has diff. opinions,
there's nothing wrong with that..
Or you! I think you are fine!
appologize if I came accross to strong, I did not mean to imply that I think you are wrong or a bad person or whatever!
I don't think that!
Its a 50/50 thing, some people think I need to stand up for myself more, and others thing I need to tone it down a bit.
I try for a balance.
So yeah, don't think I don't like you or anything.
You are fine!
If you have found somthing that works for you that is great!
Some people think what works for them is good by everybody thought, and that was what I meant by the myth.
Diff, strokes for diff. folks ya know?
-Sarah
Posted on: December 12, 2007, 09:28:12 PM
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 12, 2007, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: Sarah on December 12, 2007, 06:07:42 PM
Me and my peers will be paying for the previous Gens lifestyle. They are leaving us their debt to shoulder. That is not OK. And they wonder why we are so pissed. We've got good reason to be pissed. They trashed our home, and ran up a huge credit card bill and expect us to pay for it and clean it up.
just like your children will be paying for yours.
I sicerely hope not.
I don't think the earth can take another 50 years of sensless waste and mindless consuption without having drastic consequences for everyone living here.
I doubt my children will be able to go skiing.
By the way, to you and y2gender: I have many friends who are older than me. My friends blog I posted is from a guy who is 56.
I respect those elders who see the supidity of it all and say so and keep doing things about it.
They don't give in to Progressive Deminishment and say "my life is hard, I'm tired."
Think about the population of the world now: over 6 billion people. expected to be 9 billion soon.
Think about the population of the world in 1965. maybe 1 billion?
Largest generation EVER. By a factor of Billions.
Rebis is right though this is getting too far off topic.
This started as a myth of youth difference related to Transgendr Issues.
I happen to believe that my generation WILL get some things done this area.
In less than 50 years, I expect to see full Transgender inclusion in America.
Maybe not some old hastles, but I bet we see a large shift towards Gender neutral bathrooms and a lack of protest towards locker rooms and others as more and more people meet Transgender People or know someone who knows someone.
I also thinlk this Christian Frenzy is going to hita critical mass and implode like a burst balloon. I think we are already nearing the half life of this fundie crazyness.
When I go to school. I don't have issues there. And everybody sees me in the halls and whatever. I use the restroom I want.
I have not met a person at school who isn't cool with it.
Multiply that times years, and schools and population of transgender people, factor in progressive society's advancement, and add the internet, and I thinkg you wil see this changing rather quickly compared to before.
Just my opinion
Quote from: Sarah on December 12, 2007, 09:50:44 PM
Ell, I don't hate you!!
I think you are fine.
You are being honest!
Just like I was.
Oh, thank you! :)
-ell
Sarah
What are you so pissed about?
Quote from: link=topic=22906.msg174737#msg174737 date=1197520436
Sarah
What are you so pissed about?
I was thinkin about that earlier.
I think it's this: I'm really pissed that the older generations have left the world in such a shoddy state.
And they seem not to care. And un-appolegetic.
Like they just don't give a crap what they are doing to our home. And think that it's OK because it's what everyone else has done.
They seem to take the youth for granted, like we HAVE to deal with it so too bad.
Really it pisses me off. They trash our home tell us to clean it up and don't apologize or show gratitude for us having to do it.
I am un-impressed by their complaints and excuses. "I'm tired, life is hard, you'll understand when you are my age, I did stuff when I was young"....whatever.
It's crap. Hogwash. I've never seen such a bunch of lazy, irresponsible, deluded idiots.
Everybody's life is hard. Everybody is tired. I know the body slows down as you get older, but there are things that you can do that aren't physical that can help.
If I had a dime for every 57-year old three year old out there I would be a very rich person.
Yeah. It makes me mad. You guys are trashing our planet.
This is OUR home! you have no right to do that!
You have every responsibility to do EVERYTHING in your ability to help!
I don't care if you are tired! Get over it! you don't have the right to be comfortable at the expense of others!
Anything less is a bunch of bullcrap. There IS, no excuse for the kinds of behavior the older genderations are doing.
They are not older and wiser, they are older and more stubborn!
Wisdom has nothing to do with age! It is rare in any generation!
Yeah I'm mad! And so are most of my peers!
Wouldn't you be?
I may not be able to go skiing in a few years, and it certainly isn't MY generations fault that is happening IS IT!??
I'm mad because their actions show they don't care.
P.S. I don't know if this post belong here or in the PMS section. It is off topic.
But I wanted to answer you question. Feel free to move it.
Edit: I was going to delete this because it is a rant, off topic, and in any case wrong speach.
I decided not too, because it is honest. This is how I felt when I wrote it.
People like Ashley have some good points I am glad that there are people here who can work on something.
It's just really frustrating ya know?
Ask yourself this:How many cars do I own? Can I take the bus to work rather than drive? Can I participate in getting city initiatives to pass green bills and emmission standards within my town? And then make them tougher. And again.
Can I bring my own bag to the groccery store rather than use their plastic ones? If you do need a car can you get by with a four cylinder engine rather than a six or eight? Are there ways you can improve your impact at home? Can you recycle? Replace your bulbs with expensive, but long lasting energy efficient ones? Can you use bio-degradeable soap rather than chemical ones for washing and dishes?
Christmas is comming, Big trash time. Can you use creative means for wrapping like a poster or the comics from a paper rather than wrapping paper? can you buy cards that can be recycyled rather than ones with glitter and metalic stuff? Can you buy stuff made locally or in the US rather than overseas?
Think about it. There is a lot we can do.
Quote from: Sarah on December 12, 2007, 11:57:59 PM
Yeah. It makes me mad. You guys are trashing our planet.
This is OUR home! you have no right to do that!
You have every responsibility to do EVERYTHING in your ability to help!
There is no time to blame the elders. And much of the free for all that is laying waste to marine biology is being done by young people. oldsters just can't get out there and do that stuff.
Shrimpers use dredge nets and kill everything they haul in except the shrimp.
Shark fin fishers catch sharks and cut off the main dorsal fin, then dump the animal to die a slow and torturous death. just because some idiots like to eat shark fin soup. many of them are young people.
utility companies in the US have begun drilling enormously deep holes in the ground to use the earth's interior heat as a fuel. they are literally drilling miles down, and are causing earthquakes. many of those working on these projects are young people.
and you're right about the population problem. scientists are not sure just when it will reach a critical mass, but when it does, all hell will break loose. guess what? the population problem is caused by breeders. young breeders.
so you see, the problem is not just what has been done, but also what's happening right now. the problem is not the age of people, it's the stupidity of people. stupid doesn't discriminate by age. it's an equal opportunity condition that affects billions. even presidents.
-ell
I think each generation's full of smart allecs who messes it all up in a brand new original way while fixing the mess of the previous generations. Its their messes and they are proud of it!!
As for boomers, its really a north american phenomena. In the UK and much of Europe, the boom of births was a later because the economy was in the crapper in the late 40's. It also never really was as strong as in Canada and the US. You have to be optimistic to have children, and Europeans where certainly pessimists after the war.
The signing of Marshal plan in early 1948 and the pouring of reconstruction aid into Europe, the abolition of the tarifs in the Western Europe and new cooperative associations of countries formed in the early 50's turned things around very quickly in the 50's. Still, while the 50's were an era of booming prosperity in the US, it was just the return to normalcy in western europe.
In the rest of the world, the population has been booming without respite in the 20th century. Lately, there's been a slowdown of growth because of family planning, Aids in Africa, prosperity (when a society is prosperous, the number of child per household decreases).
Quote from: ell on December 13, 2007, 12:32:42 AM
Quote from: Sarah on December 12, 2007, 11:57:59 PM
Yeah. It makes me mad. You guys are trashing our planet.
This is OUR home! you have no right to do that!
You have every responsibility to do EVERYTHING in your ability to help!
There is no time to blame the elders. And much of the free for all that is laying waste to marine biology is being done by young people. oldsters just can't get out there and do that stuff.
Shrimpers use dredge nets and kill everything they haul in except the shrimp.
Shark fin fishers catch sharks and cut off the main dorsal fin, then dump the animal to die a slow and torturous death. just because some idiots like to eat shark fin soup. many of them are young people.
utility companies in the US have begun drilling enormously deep holes in the ground to use the earth's interior heat as a fuel. they are literally drilling miles down, and are causing earthquakes. many of those working on these projects are young people.
and you're right about the population problem. scientists are not sure just when it will reach a critical mass, but when it does, all hell will break loose. guess what? the population problem is caused by breeders. young breeders.
so you see, the problem is not just what has been done, but also what's happening right now. the problem is not the age of people, it's the stupidity of people. stupid doesn't discriminate by age. it's an equal opportunity condition that affects billions. even presidents.
-ell
I suppose you are right Ell.
There is no time to waste blaming.
Especially when we need all the help we can get.
You are very right that a lot of the harm has been done by young people. You are right, stupidity is an equal opportunity condition.
I suppose I just see more of the elders being hippocrites than young people.
Even if they are, I doesn't help to go off on them about it when there is a chance they might help.
I have trouble blaming young people for breeding, it is what they are wired to do, but it doesn't help if their govt. or church is against condoms. It's all a mess isn't it? And very frustrating. At least there is beauty and love in the world or we'd all probably go completely crazy.
You are right.
There is no time for blaming. And no point anyway.
I'm sorry it's just very frustrating.
I'd be lying if I said it doesn't get to me or get me down every once in a while.
Thanks for being a voice of reason Ell.
There are some other people here who are very well grounded as well.
Thank you all as well for putting up with my frustration. It's very tiring I'm sure.
-See ya
-Sarah
Hi Sarah,
I understand your anger, your disappointment, and your being down because of it. Don't let it get to you, though. You need real energy if you're going to make a difference. People will pay more attention to you if you seem to be coming from a good place. It's like that theory about the smile; if you smile, others will smile and it will catch on. I believe it's the same with an upbeat and "can do" attitude.
Nothing is written. Everything you do will affect someone or something in someway, so it is best to bring your best.
If you stress, you will do no one any good, particularly yourself. I had to learn to feel good because I allowed myself to stay down for so long. You are trying to carry much more than you are built to carry on your own. You don't need to do that. If you must have burdens, learn to choose the burdens that are most urgent and that can be handled. I don't mean to sound like a new age idiot. These are ideas that I've found to be true.
Breathe easy. We're with you on about everything you said. Change takes time is all.
Peace,
Rebis
This was starting out to be a great thread, a memorable thread. Until it got hijacked way off course. Folks, please remember netiquette, if you have a lot to say on a totally different subject, make a new thread for it and post a link to there. I want more on the myths because we have tons of them to slay.
Quote from: Hypatia on December 13, 2007, 02:24:49 PM
This was starting out to be a great thread, a memorable thread. Until it got hijacked way off course. Folks, please remember netiquette, if you have a lot to say on a totally different subject, make a new thread for it and post a link to there. I want more on the myths because we have tons of them to slay.
I agree. Let's stay on topic people!. The title of this thread is:
Myths in our community that need to die a quick death. If you would like to talk about something else, please start a new thread. Thanks.
tink :icon_chick:
1. Although mtf transsexuals have surgery to change their anatomy and take female hormones, they still act like men.
2. MTF transsexuals are not women-born women
3. MTF transsexuals are trying to "pass " as women. They try to make themselves as much like nontranssexual women as possible.
4. MTF transsexuals take jobs away from other women because they had access to better training when they were men.
5. To lessen the power of patriarchy in our lives, we must purge our community of everything male, including women who once had male anatomy.
6. Most women can easily prove they are not male-to-female transsexuals, if they are challenged to do so.
7. Women's space is not "safe" space if mtf transsexuals are allowed.
8. The sex assigned to a person at birth is that person's "real" sex.
9. Nontranssexual women have the right to decide whether transsexuals should be included in the women's community.
10. MTF transsexuals will always be men
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 15, 2007, 08:15:41 AM
i have heard that hypocritical crap somewhere. something to do with a music festival or something where FTMs were allowed but no MTFs. and to that i say WTF.
Michigan Womens Music Festival, their policy is only womyn born womyn are allowed. Thus an M2F can't attend, but in theory, an F2M could... >:(
y2g
Quote from: y2gender on December 15, 2007, 08:25:07 AM
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 15, 2007, 08:15:41 AM
i have heard that hypocritical crap somewhere. something to do with a music festival or something where FTMs were allowed but no MTFs. and to that i say WTF.
Michigan Womens Music Festival, their policy is only womyn born womyn are allowed. Thus an M2F can't attend, but in theory, an F2M could... >:(
y2g
yep. because they don't believe in TSism and think FTMs are just doing this to gain male privilege.
i've also heard another one of their excuses was something like 'ftms still know what it's like to suffer sexism and the hardships of being female in this patriarchal society.'
like mtfs don't? ::)
Posted on: December 15, 2007, 09:54:30 AM
they always go on about how mtfs were born with male privilege and don't understand the struggles of WBW.
but i would think they actually understand better than WBW about sexism and such. who knows better than transsexual women the difference between how men and women are treated?
Quote from: link=topic=22906.msg175585#msg175585 date=1197730743
yep. because they don't believe in TSism and think FTMs are just doing this to gain male privilege.
i've also heard another one of their excuses was something like 'ftms still know what it's like to suffer sexism and the hardships of being female in this patriarchal society.'
like mtfs don't? ::)
Posted on: December 15, 2007, 09:54:30 AM
they always go on about how mtfs were born with male privilege and don't understand the struggles of WBW.
but i would think they actually understand better than WBW about sexism and such. who knows better than transsexual women the difference between how men and women are treated?
Whether or not I can ever know exactly what a WBW goes through, I have certainly experienced my share of harm from growing up gender variant within the patriarchal society.
y2gen
Quote from: y2gender on December 15, 2007, 08:25:07 AM
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 15, 2007, 08:15:41 AM
i have heard that hypocritical crap somewhere. something to do with a music festival or something where FTMs were allowed but no MTFs. and to that i say WTF.
Michigan Womens Music Festival, their policy is only womyn born womyn are allowed. Thus an M2F can't attend, but in theory, an F2M could... >:(
y2g
They justify it by saying they don't want "male energy." It is not just theory, FtMs do participate. Total hypocrisy.
Honestly, i'm not a girl who ever believed in events like Lilith Fair, Celtic Woman, or that backwater Michigan event in bush country. Lifetime Channel feminists are not exactly my idea of feminine, and were never something i wanted to aspire to. that mean-spirited, pushy attitude they love to shove in people's faces seems to me to be just awash in testosterone. Blech!!!
That women's festival is part of the great myth.
Its always possible to tell that somebody's a TS.
I bet I'd go there and have no problem.
Do they strip search everybody?
Later, even that wouldn't work...
Since I am intersex, I will give a few myths from that perspective.
--- Intersexuality is extremely rare.
--- Only "true hermaphrodites" are really intersexed
--- If you're transsexed, then you're intersexed.
--- You can't raise an intersexed child as a boy or girl without surgery.
--- Surgery on intersex babies makes normal-looking genitals.
--- Once surgery is better, we won't have to worry about intersexuality.
--- Corrective surgeries on intersex babies make parents forget their kid was born different and undoes all their confusion, shame, guilt, and fear.
--- Corrective surgery on infants is quite alright
Myth: All transsexual people fully consciously realize they're the other gender in early childhood and articulate it openly. If you didn't speak out about it when you were 3 years old, you can't be transsexual.
Quote from: Hypatia on December 15, 2007, 02:18:35 PM
Myth: All transsexual people fully consciously realize they're the other gender in early childhood and articulate it openly. If you didn't speak out about it when you were 3 years old, you can't be transsexual.
Good one, Hypatia. Whether or not one felt comfortable declaring their true gender at a young age, has more to do with the parents or guardians and the household environment than with the child. A child growing up in a strict religious household and punished for the slightest infraction is far less likely to speak up and say something warranting severe punishment than a child in a more 'casual' and comfortable home environment.
So, it says more about the parents or guardians than the child's condition.
Hypatia, you said it, sister. Being aware that you're different is a far, far cry from knowing what your options are and what you should do about it.
Quote from: Hypatia on December 15, 2007, 02:18:35 PM
Myth: All transsexual people fully consciously realize they're the other gender in early childhood and articulate it openly. If you didn't speak out about it when you were 3 years old, you can't be transsexual.
I dont think these peeps are "not" transsexual. They just realise their condtion at a much later time. But the opposite is true too. There are many trans peeps that realise their condition (maybe not in scientific terms) when they are three years old.
well, there's realize, and realize. Remember, its 3 years old we're talking about
and everybody's got a different notion od what a woman is that relates to
the environment you've grown up in. If your mother's was an everest climber and polar
explorer and dressed in jeans and T's I'm not sure you'd feel so different from
her as if she was a girly socialite.
I had little notion of gender under probably 7, I was quite a loner and
the only contacts I had out of school
was with the girl's in the neighborhood who accepted wholesale.
I had long hair until I as 10 (it was in fashion in the mid 70's)
I didn't really see a major diff between me and the other girls
until their puberty. Then it hit me hard.
Quote from: Yvonne on December 15, 2007, 01:31:02 PM
--- If you're transsexed, then you're intersexed.
Can you explain why this is a myth? If trannsexual people are born with female-brain-structure in male bodies and vice versa, then transsexualism is an intersexed condition.
Transsexual women are not real women aftersurgery, because they can't have babies. And transsexual men are not real men after surgery because they can't make women pregnant.
Transsexualism is so new that no one has had a chance to pass any laws to cover the legal aspects of it.
Transsexualism (Unrelenting Gender Dysphoria) is not really a medical problem. Transsexuals choose to be transsexuals, so transsexualism is a matter of orientation.
Transsexuals who are interested in children are only interested because they are pedophiles. Children who are exposed to transsexuals, or who have parents who are transsexuals will suffer emotional and psychological damage, and may grow up as gay or transsexuals themselves.
Transsexualism is a sin.
Heterosexual transsexuals are all a bunch of ego-dystonic gayboy ->-bleeped-<-s and butch dykes.
Girls are autogynephilic too. It's just natural female sexuality
All transsexuals are the same, some just transition later >:D
The two types of transsexuals can't be easily divided by the age they transition >:D
Transsexual people are weak because they couldnt live as their birth sex
Transsexual people are not normal
Transsexual people lack personality
Transsexual people lack the strength needed to assimilate
Transsexual people lack self-love
Transsexual people lack strength
Thank you N for the inspiration ;)
There have been complaints that this thread keeps veering off topic. Stay on topic please other wise posts will be deleted from this point on.
And as Tink pointed out - if you have a point of view that is not relevant to the topic then start a new one. Last warning folks.
Steph
Re: Myths in our community that need to die a quick death
.....how about the 'our community' myth. I live in my own community and town in the U.K and although it's very nice to chat to folk in another country and exchange views on - line about TS issue's, but I'm not actually part of any transgendered community in the U.K or the U.S. I'm just me and I just do ordinary things like go to the pub or go to a concert. I'm a just part of the everyday community......
Quote from: ell on December 16, 2007, 05:08:48 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on December 16, 2007, 02:20:08 PM
Re: Myths in our community that need to die a quick death
.....how about the 'our community' myth. I live in my own community and town in the U.K and although it's very nice to chat to folk in another country and exchange views on - line about TS issue's, but I'm not actually part of any transgendered community in the U.K or the U.S. I'm just me and I just do ordinary things like go to the pub or go to a concert. I'm a just part of the everyday community......
if you're transitioning, you need Trans clubs, imho. trans clubs offer tremendous support and relief by seeing you in your correct gender, and by allowing a safe space to socialize with other peeps like yourself. also they offer helpful advice on make-up, clothes hair, etc., etc., also they help by giving you exposure to men while being totally dressed and girly. also they give you a safe space to girl-dance your head off without being harassed by gay men, as they sometimes do at the GLBT clubs.
so, if a community is a group of people that pull together and help one another in need and provide understanding and moral support, how is that not a community? for that matter, how is Susan's not a community? as one who started out from zero earlier this year, this site has helped me more than i can tell you. so, because i am terribly loyal, like a dog, i love this place. yes, i have made mistakes and offended some people here, but honestly, it wasn't done out of malice. it's just that sometimes i speak without thinking, and before i know it, the words have been said. then, what can be done? even if you take it back, people already what's in your heart. :(
-ell
I disagree...
If you are transsexual and are in the process of transitioning you go out and meet real people in real situations, not hide away in a false sense of security in a ->-bleeped-<- club or a gay club. That is NOT the real life test or any other test ('Harry Benjamin Standards Of Care'). Go to a normal hetrosexual pub instead......you will soon find out how well your doing.....I've never been anywhere to show me how to apply make up, or how to wear my own clothes, for me it was totally instinctive from an early age.
I cannot relate to what you are saying at all........
Quote from: Berliegh on December 16, 2007, 05:24:41 PM
I disagree...
If you are transsexual and are in the process of transitioning you go out and meet real people in real situations, not hide away in a false sense of security in a ->-bleeped-<- club or a gay club. That is NOT the real life test or any other test. Go to a normal hetrosexual pub instead......you will soon find out how well your doing.....I've never been anywhere to show me how to apply make up, or how to wear my own clothes, for me it was totally instinctive from an early age.
I cannot relate to what you are saying at all........
oh. sorry.
i guess i thought Trans people
were real people.
and anyway, even if they're not, i love them. they are so sweet. i've never had much fun hanging with "real" people. in my experience, they're very judgmental, often rude, seldom understanding.
-ell
Quote from: ell on December 16, 2007, 05:37:05 PM
oh. sorry.
i guess i thought Trans people were real people.
and anyway, even if they're not, i love them. they are so sweet. i've never had much fun hanging with "real" people. in my experience, they're very judgmental, often rude, seldom understanding.
-ell
We are obviouisly seeing this from two totally differerent angles........yes agreed, real people are judgemental which is the whole point of the excercise. No one will judge you at a ->-bleeped-<- club but they might say you look wonderful. A person in an everyday environment will tell you what they really think and possibly be far more acurate. I think it's more beneficial to live a 'Real life test' than coocoon yourself in a false sense of security with 'nice' people...
Quote from: ell on December 16, 2007, 05:58:02 PM
if you're trying to beat me down for something, just beat me down, would you? and stop generalizing about other Trans people and speaking about them as if they were somehow inferior. They're not! and i'm deeply offended by you calling clubs i go to as "->-bleeped-<- clubs'. how rude! as i said, feel free to offend me all you want, but don't you dare say anything about the Trans people i hang with. You don't know them! now if you'll excuse me, i'm going to an FTM party that has invited MTF's, and i can't wait!!! yes, it is my idea of fun. see you.
Not all all Ell. I was trying to make you understand that it's better to have a real life experience and go out properly rather than go somewhere like the safe haven of a transgendered club. How are you going experience real life if you continue to go to safe havens.
I don't know what your goal is in life?....From my own perpective am a transsexual woman and I live as a woman and go out in everyday situations which includes normal bars and concerts. I have no desire to go to transgendered clubs or gay bars and I'm happy with my life this way.
Keep it civil.
Steph
In Montreal there is a trans community, but I've never
felt the urge to go there pre or post hrt,
I went to a normal club 4 months into HRT
and I was in a tank a skirt, went to dozens
of party functions since then.
Some TS feel the need to be around people like them, others don't.
Its a personal preference that nobody should judge on one side
or the other. None is really "better".
Though from an integration
point of view, I do agree that many TS use such clubs
as a security blanket. Whatever works for them I guess.
They say, I prefer going to these clubs because my
friends are there, but when I suggest heading
to very trendy electronica clubs a few blocks away
(gay and TS clubs are just 5-6 blocks from the main
club district in Montreal), they balk completely
Quote from: Keira on December 17, 2007, 03:21:34 AM
Some TS feel the need to be around people like them, others don't.
Its a personal preference that nobody should judge on one side
or the other. None is really "better".
Though from an integration
point of view, I do agree that many TS use such clubs
as a security blanket. Whatever works for them I guess.
My point exactely.....thank you Keira for presenting it in a better format...
Quote from: Yvonne on December 15, 2007, 02:46:02 PM
Quote from: Hypatia on December 15, 2007, 02:18:35 PM
Myth: All transsexual people fully consciously realize they're the other gender in early childhood and articulate it openly. If you didn't speak out about it when you were 3 years old, you can't be transsexual.
I dont think these peeps are "not" transsexual. They just realise their condtion at a much later time. But the opposite is true too. There are many trans peeps that realise their condition (maybe not in scientific terms) when they are three years old.
Very well said Yvonne. I am one of those women who knew her true gender at age three. I didn't know what "transsexual" meant then, of course, but I knew I was a girl & I expressed it to my mom at that age. I dare anyone tell me that this can't be, I will eat you alive! >:D
Okay more myths:
* Dilation is NOT a lifetime routine.
* Post-op women CAN'T experience orgasms. ;D
* Sexual preference changes after SRS.
* Transsexual women who identify as straight have SRS so that they can have more boyfriends.
* Transsexualism is a phase
* Transsexual people do not make good parents
* Transsexual people can't/don't have children
* Transsexual parents stigmatize their children
* A neo-vagina can easily be detected by a gynecologist
tink :icon_chick:
I knew of my being a girl VERY early too... but its certainly no marker...
and im straight, i want srs/grs/chopjob simply to feel complete in myself. NOT for more boyfriends, it CERTAINLY wouldnt be a bad thing, as most guys seem to hate the idea of thier girlfriend having a penis...
R :police:
Off topic a second: I very much enjoy the term, neo-vagina. It sounds so classically designed.
Or a chrome entrance way to a grand building.
This is off topic too.
I am seriously considering ignoring all users who use the term "peeps".
No joking or kidding.
I've never used the button before, however, there are times when a person must do what is right above doing what is polite.
Rebis
Well here are a few:
- Transsexual people cannot be trusted to work with children.
- Transsexual people are just not spiritual enough.
- Transsexual people share the same social problems as the gay and lesbian communities.
- Transsexual women are just boys pretending to be girls.
- It's all about sex.
- Some transsexuals can just never pass.
- Transsexualism can be linked to some trauma in early life.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
I just thought of one more.
M2F trans are all 250 lb linebackers who are doing this so they can go into the cheerleader's locker room
y2g
Posted on: December 17, 2007, 10:18:49 PM
Quote from: Rebis on December 17, 2007, 09:21:27 PM
I am seriously considering ignoring all users who use the term "peeps".
Rebis,
I feel your pain about this. Perhaps all who use the term should simply be banished to the seventh layer of purgatory >:D
y2g
Ell,
I thought my post was balanced, not even referencing you?
I'm not throwing people in hell because they don't go to non TS clubs,
just wish people would be honest. My friends didn't want to
admit to themselves that they were afraid of going into the big bad world
and had all sort of reasons why they preferred more alternative clubs.
The crazy things is she looked fantastic; I couldn't understand why
she needed the security blanket.
BTW, I've gone plenty of time pre transition in those clubs just because
they' were often some of the coolest. That was especiallly the case
in the late 80's, early 90;s But, these days seemingly are gone. The best
clubs are elsewhere, so that's where I go; I use (who's the best?) to
direct which club I go to instead of it being gay, straight or whatever.
Quote from: Keira on December 17, 2007, 10:44:45 PM
Ell,
I thought my post was balanced, not even referencing you?
except for the cheap shot about the security blanket.
QuoteI'm not throwing people in hell because they don't go to non TS clubs,
just wish people would be honest.
how is that not a pointed attack? it's not really your concern where i go, and is it your business to judge how i proceed on my transition as dishonest? is that your job here on the boards?
QuoteMy friends didn't want to
admit to themselves that they were afraid of going into the big bad world
i think i should go at my own speed, whether you insult me about it or not.
but i will take back what i said about this site being helpful. sometimes it's just plain rude, rather than helpful.
Ladies, ladies, please.
Some ladies choose to hang in non-TG associated clubs, others prefer to hang with other TGs.
There is nothing wrong with either choice.
The desire to hang with peeps possessing a common background is as old as time. And certainly not unique to TGs.
Let's also keep in mind that other ladies here may not be at the same point in transition as you are. All beginning transitioners need the support of other TS.
Let's respect others' choices in their social circle.
,
maybe you can backanalyse what I said,
because I can't see where I went wrong on that one.
Sent me to sensitivity training if I need it... ;)
Keira is befuddled, but its a normal state for her...
:icon_weirdface:
Quote from: Katia on December 11, 2007, 06:11:40 PM
-male-to-female transsexuals have been socialized as men, and this socialization cannot be changed
-male-to-female transsexuals have been raised as boys, have never been oppressed as women, and cannot understand women's oppression
-male-to-female transsexuals are trying to take over the lesbian community
I agree completely. These are the most dangerous myths, since they attack the human privilege to define oneself and attach oneself to a peer group. The idea that socialization in one sex prevents one from empathizing or understanding the other sex's oppression is ridiculous. For some transsexuals, they can have the "perfect" body, voice, clothes, etc., and yet on this basis of socialization there are people who think that they can limit transpeople's claim to the sex to which they should belong. I can't think of much worse in violation of human rights, than to deny one's self-identification. It blows my mind how some feminists can treat transpeople so badly and deny them entry into "womyn-born-womyn" space just because of their different experiences, as if there were one monolithic experience of womanhood! :icon_crazy:
Quote from: Tink on December 17, 2007, 06:29:42 PM
Quote from: Yvonne on December 15, 2007, 02:46:02 PM
Quote from: Hypatia on December 15, 2007, 02:18:35 PM
Myth: All transsexual people fully consciously realize they're the other gender in early childhood and articulate it openly. If you didn't speak out about it when you were 3 years old, you can't be transsexual.
I dont think these peeps are "not" transsexual. They just realise their condtion at a much later time. But the opposite is true too. There are many trans peeps that realise their condition (maybe not in scientific terms) when they are three years old.
Very well said Yvonne. I am one of those women who knew her true gender at age three. I didn't know what "transsexual" meant then, of course, but I knew I was a girl & I expressed it to my mom at that age. I dare anyone tell me that this can't be, I will eat you alive! >:D
You're both misreading the intent of what I posted. Note the little word "All" at the beginning of my sentence. A statement in the form of "All X are Y" is called a categorical statement, which can easily become a falsehood if not applied carefully. Human beings are so diverse that usually you can't say "All X are Y" about people, there are bound to be exceptions... which was my point. I didn't mean to say "No 3-year-olds can know they're trans." That would be another categorical statement about people, and would be just as wrong.
I just meant that because some do, it doesn't follow that we all have to... but there is that false categorical assumption about us out there.
Posted on: December 18, 2007, 02:34:18 AM
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 17, 2007, 08:09:54 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on December 17, 2007, 07:33:12 PM
Off topic a second: I very much enjoy the term, neo-vagina. It sounds so classically designed.
sounds very matrix like.
you are the one, neo. lol
I'm going to request a
neon vagina. It would be so cool to have bioluminescence.
Quote from: link=topic=22906.msg176579#msg176579 date=1197957321
Ladies, ladies, please.
Some ladies choose to hang in non-TG associated clubs, others prefer to hang with other TGs.
There is nothing wrong with either choice.
The desire to hang with peeps possessing a common background is as old as time. And certainly not unique to TGs.
Let's also keep in mind that other ladies here may not be at the same point in transition as you are. All beginning transitioners need the support of other TS.
Let's respect others' choices in their social circle.
.....I don't do either. I don't go to transgendered clubs and I don't hang around with TG's either. The only TG's I know of are the folk on the forum. Most of my friends are not related to the TG scene and never have been. Even when I was in the early stages of transition I didn't ever want go to transgendered clubs or anything trans related. It was my choice and if I wanted to go to the average pub down the road....that was and is my choice. I am not saying I have anything against TG related clubs or workshops or therapy groups, all I'm saying is they are not for me personally and I prefer the company of the pub and genetic females and males..
I have had Transsexuals try and force the TG scene on me especially one Female to male person who found out I was TS and a musician. He wanted me to go to Transgendered music workshop which made me angry as I knew plenty of hetrosexual musicians anyway and I was not in the slightest bit interested in going to gender related workshops or transgendered clubs, why would I?.... I'm quite independant and prefer not to get involved in any kind of TG scene...
(N used Peeps :o)
Quote from: Kristi on December 17, 2007, 10:06:04 PM
- Some transsexuals can just never pass.
- Transsexualism can be linked to some trauma in early life.
Kristi
That one aint a myth...
R :police:
Quote from: Pica Pica on December 18, 2007, 05:48:28 AM
(N used Peeps :o)
In N's case, I'm going to let it slide. ;)
y2g
Myth: Autogynepilia exists!
, and everyone who repeated it. I'm going to let it slide this one time. >:( >:(
>:( >:( >:( >:( :P
myths or assumptions:
all T people are liberals
all T people are sensitive caring people
all T people are MtF
all T people are prostitutes
a lot of T people are pretty conservative aren't they?
Yeah. I don't get it.
Maybe we should fire them. :laugh:
I get it. They want to not make a fuss and bring attention to themselves = conservativeness.
Androgynes are more jammy, they are preservatives.
Quote from: Keira on December 18, 2007, 12:13:39 AM
,
maybe you can backanalyse what I said,
because I can't see where I went wrong on that one.
Sent me to sensitivity training if I need it... ;)
Keira is befuddled, but its a normal state for her...
:icon_weirdface:
That was just a statement that needed to be said because there's been a lot of back and forth in this thread about 'hanging with TGs vs not hanging with TGs'.
Yeah,
->-bleeped-<- exists,
the myth, well the croc theory...
Is that ALL TS are either gay or autogynephile
(sounds as crazy as it is).
thier not? :o
R :police:
is it possible for a gay ->-bleeped-<-c to exist? ???
Since autogeniphilia is sexual excitation at seeing yourself as someone of the opposite gender
(but mostly seen in netive men), how could you be gay?
Its a sexual orientation in itself!
Unless its a bit more elaborate and its seeing oneself as somebody of the opposite gender
so you can be lesbian or gay in that gender that excites you.
Which I'm sure exists.
If its possible to sexualize inanimate objects, then its easy to believe that you can do it to yourself. I'm sure its not a myth in that sense. It is true for some people. I doubt if it passes the test for being a universal field theory about TG, but then again, nothing does.
Quote from: Hypatia on December 18, 2007, 02:37:59 AM
Quote from: Tink on December 17, 2007, 06:29:42 PM
Quote from: Yvonne on December 15, 2007, 02:46:02 PM
Quote from: Hypatia on December 15, 2007, 02:18:35 PM
Myth: All transsexual people fully consciously realize they're the other gender in early childhood and articulate it openly. If you didn't speak out about it when you were 3 years old, you can't be transsexual.
I dont think these peeps are "not" transsexual. They just realise their condtion at a much later time. But the opposite is true too. There are many trans peeps that realise their condition (maybe not in scientific terms) when they are three years old.
Very well said Yvonne. I am one of those women who knew her true gender at age three. I didn't know what "transsexual" meant then, of course, but I knew I was a girl & I expressed it to my mom at that age. I dare anyone tell me that this can't be, I will eat you alive! >:D
You're both misreading the intent of what I posted. Note the little word "All" at the beginning of my sentence. A statement in the form of "All X are Y" is called a categorical statement, which can easily become a falsehood if not applied carefully. Human beings are so diverse that usually you can't say "All X are Y" about people, there are bound to be exceptions... which was my point. I didn't mean to say "No 3-year-olds can know they're trans." That would be another categorical statement about people, and would be just as wrong.
Hypatia, I understood what you meant. Perhaps I should have only included Yvonne's quote to avoid confusion. If you take the time to re-read her quote, she said:
Quote from: YvonneI dont think these peeps are "not" transsexual. They just realise their condtion at a much later time. But the opposite is true too. There are many trans peeps that realise their condition (maybe not in scientific terms) when they are three years old.
.
Basically she supported your notion but expanded it a bit. Anyhow, I thought I'd let you know!
tink :icon_chick:
I don't know any 3D TGs.
Quote from: Pica Pica on December 18, 2007, 07:00:59 PM
I don't know any 3D TGs.
Pica, I'd probably die of boredom without you and Reebs!
You lot, E-TGs.
And what would me and Rebis do if it wasn't talk crud on t'internet?
OOh Modify....
Actually I'm lying.
I once knew an FTM very well, they were odd though. A little frightening to be around. And I have met another FTM and he is pretty friendly as far as I know, my dad knows him better. 'Cept that, no one.
Quote from: Tink on December 18, 2007, 06:13:55 PM
Hypatia, I understood what you meant. ...
Basically she supported your notion but expanded it a bit. Anyhow, I thought I'd let you know!
Thanks! Sorry if I misunderstood.
Trans dudes are weaker then bio dudes. no we aint :laugh:
Quote from: Chris on December 19, 2007, 12:30:59 AM
Trans dudes are weaker then bio dudes. no we aint :laugh:
No we ain't. I had a personal trainer for 8 months who didn't know I was trans. He was amazed at my progress. And, at the end of it I could outlift the guy ahead of me. Both legs and arms.
Dennis
At the amateur level, I would agree in general.
But, at the competitive level (Olympics, national) there is a marked difference
in power event like 100-200 meters sprints, high jumps, clean and jerk weightlifting,
there is a BIG difference in records between males and females and it the
reason for this is muscle fibers, females have much more slow fibers which
are geared towards performance at 75% of maximum power during very
long period of times.
Power is Force X Speed, its the speed component that will be lacking until fibers turn over
from slow to fast.
It takes many years to turnover fibers and its only under very very hard training
that new fibers will be devellopped instead of old fibers boosted. So, unless
your a FTM who transitioned at 14-20, its improbably you'll ever be
doing the olympics because the fiber turnover will finish to late.
Doesn't mean you won't be strong as an ox though. Olympics and national level is
something most people cannot aspire too and I'm just telling you that
in this particular case, there is a difference.
For example, my high jump record is 7, 3 inch in practice (2m20 ).
That's very far from the male world record, but way above the female world record.
On the opposite direction, I found surprising that they allowed MTF in the olympics
only 3 years after SRS since in those events, it would give a distinct advantage.
But, I suppose being out of the competitive limelight for 3 years and
being at a disadvantage against men prior to SRS
would present enough of a disadvantage to compensate for this.
Also, there are very few high levels athletes, and even fewer TS.
I know of 2-3 high level athletes that have the chance to go to
the olympics and none are in power events; one is in mountain
biking and she's from Quebec. Initially, she faced some weariness
from other women on her circuit, but now she's well integrated
and they don't think she's got an undue advantage.
Quote from: Pica Pica on December 18, 2007, 07:38:09 AM
a lot of T people are pretty conservative aren't they?
I could never get it. Like the Log Cabin Republicans. Wassup wid dat? Self-loathing?
Quote from: Veronica Secret on December 22, 2007, 09:55:27 AM
Quote from: Pica Pica on December 18, 2007, 07:38:09 AM
a lot of T people are pretty conservative aren't they?
I could never get it. Like the Log Cabin Republicans. Wassup wid dat? Self-loathing?
Nice, Veronica. Prolly so. Or just the insistence that politics MUST not follow what might seem to be in one's best interest? In your Log Cabin example, "My being gay is secondary to my believing in the political philosophy of Attila the Hun, the religious philosophy of Torquemada and the economic principles of Rupert Murdoch. See, I am really not just gay, but also reactionary!" *smile*
I think sometimes self-loathing is easier for us to 'hold' if we can transfer it to someone other than ourselves.
N~
I think that you see more conservative trans people on the web then in real life. Most out and about Trans organizations are liberal to left, so that leaves the web for people of a conservative cast.
i think most conservative TS people irl just go live normal lives... and leave the campaigning to the 'campaigner type' ie, the liberal lefties...
R
Actually, in the U.S., conservatives DON'T want to allow us to lead our lives and it's been shown that conservatives lack the ability to think in shades of gray. Everything is black and white. Am I beginning to notice a pattern here?
conservative transpeople are somewhat different to transphobe conservaitves :P (to some extent)
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 23, 2007, 07:23:51 AM
i think most conservative TS people irl just go live normal lives... and leave the campaigning to the 'campaigner type' ie, the liberal lefties...
R
maybe that is so in the UK. in the US, the opposite is true. Our conservatives are very Christian, for the most part, and as such, think they have the word of God that people not like them are evil, and should be eradicated. they are
very political, power-hungry, and organized to the point that to ignore them is to underestimate them.
no, thats not 'conservatives' thats fundimental christians... Conservatism, is simply enjoyment of the status quo, resistance to change... there are conservatives in every sphere of life...
religious conservatives
lgbt conservatives...
political conservatives
business conservatives
militery
arts
music etc
there are liberals for every conservative in any field.
stating that all 'conservatives' in the US are uber christian bible bashers is a bit fail...
R :police:
This conversation has sure taken a nosedive. If you want to stereotype, then don't complain when it happens to you as well.
There are many who are conservative politically while being liberal socially. These are very different things. A conservative traditionally believes in less government. A liberal traditionally believes in more government. There wonderful promises and huge problems with both approaches. However, it seems that most of the people I have personally met are more conservative in their outlook on government because they have become disillusioned. However, they remain progressive on social issues.
As far as Christians thinking everyone is evil, again this is very much a stereotype. The majority of Christians are not right-wing fundamentalists. Today virtually every mainstream denomination has within them an ongoing discussion about these matters. And many of the most ardent supporters of human rights are in the pews on Sundays being nourished in their convictions by pastors who have the courage to read the entire gospel of the love of Christ and act it out. These folks are not supporters of human rights in spite of the teachings of the church, but specifically because of it. They are not generally newsworthy, but they make up the vast majority in Christendom today.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
again, fail @ steriotyping...
they are religious fundamentalists... NOT '_THE_ conservatives...
there is a difference...
R :police:
Look everybody. I hate to have to agree with Rachael about anything and I'm angry >:( that you've forced me to do it, but she's right about there being a difference between the fundies and conservatives.
We tend to overly associate the christian fundies with political conservatism here. But John McCain is a conservative and Guilianni is a conservative even though they both are social almost human (there are doubts concerning the birth planet of guilianni). Arnold is conservative even though he's suing the Bu$h administration over their lack of flexibility in allowing states to handle the environment under certain circumstances.
Fundamentalists who use the conservative political structure are Gary Buarer (I don't even care if I spell his name right), the late Jerry Falwell, and James Dobson.
The fundies are a subset of a political party that might not be so grotesque if they had the guts to dump them.
If I have to agree with Rachael again, I'm going to personally come around and visit all of you, and not in a happy way. So knock it off.
Rebis
* disclaimer - I am only joking about the agreeing with rachael thing. And I am not speaking as a moderator in this post. It is just my opinion put in a way that is meant to entertain.
Quote from: Kristi on December 23, 2007, 10:20:10 AM
This conversation has sure taken a nosedive. If you want to stereotype, then don't complain when it happens to you as well.
There are many who are conservative politically while being liberal socially. These are very different things. A conservative traditionally believes in less government. A liberal traditionally believes in more government. There wonderful promises and huge problems with both approaches. However, it seems that most of the people I have personally met are more conservative in their outlook on government because they have become disillusioned. However, they remain progressive on social issues.
As far as Christians thinking everyone is evil, again this is very much a stereotype. The majority of Christians are not right-wing fundamentalists. Today virtually every mainstream denomination has within them an ongoing discussion about these matters. And many of the most ardent supporters of human rights are in the pews on Sundays being nourished in their convictions by pastors who have the courage to read the entire gospel of the love of Christ and act it out. These folks are not supporters of human rights in spite of the teachings of the church, but specifically because of it. They are not generally newsworthy, but they make up the vast majority in Christendom today.
Kristi
sorry if i offended you, Kristi, i know you are very religious, and i do respect you for that. however i do not respect the church at all. i, too, have a message of love -- where it's warranted.
and i am frankly appalled by the church's non-committal stand against many forms of injustice in the US. when they need you, they ask for cold hard cash, up front. if you need them, they will pray for you. thanks alot.
-ell
ps. i am on topic because Christianity (and all the other pie-in-the-sky religions) are literally myths (Creation Myths) that really need to die a quick death.
-L
Hi Ell,
I like to think that my church is not as cold as you paint them all as being. Kristi is correct. There are many many congregations that really do stand up for us. You don't hear about them because it's not 'news' to the media machine.
I'm not lecturing you, but I think maybe, if you can find an accepting church in your area, you should check it out. Not to join, but to witness first hand that there really are some caring people who practice organized religion.
Rebis
cheers rebis.....
R >:D
If you make common cause with some other group long enough it becomes hard to separate, that is not the viewers fault.
At root, the richest people in this country, got the poorest people in the country to support them and they both fought - and fight - against the middle majority. And make no mistake, it was the political/financial conservatives that were masterful at politically manipulating the voters who comprise the religious-right.
Pandering to them on their pet social control issues, making 'gay marriage' some big political deal (when its not), while the corporations were did a wholesale renovation of the government while no one was paying attention, has done great damage to this country. And there are a lot of people who are very angry, and very hurt about it. A lot of that anger is directed at the people who allowed to happen and who helped make it happen. They were both complicit with each other, tough beans.
So yeah, they are going to get painted with the same brush, but them's the ones that put all that paint out there and only left one brush.
the most religiously fanatical in the US, are the bible belt, and the poor of ameica... the rich conservatives care more about thier own pocket than gods...
R >:D
Quote from: Rebis on December 23, 2007, 11:35:22 AM
Hi Ell,
I like to think that my church is not as cold as you paint them all as being. Kristi is correct. There are many many congregations that really do stand up for us. You don't hear about them because it's not 'news' to the media machine.
I'm not lecturing you, but I think maybe, if you can find an accepting church in your area, you should check it out. Not to join, but to witness first hand that there really are some caring people who practice organized religion.
Rebis
sorry if i offended you, too, my dear.
but i'm not the one who said that Mary made it with a deity.
i'm not the one who said there is some human-formed deity, looking down on us to make sure that we don't think a horny idea, judging our every move and thought, and if we don't believe in "him," then we will burn forever in a bad place.
forever.
i didn't say without a doubt that there is a life after death, where you're gonna meet angels -- or, in the case of most people -- not.
i didn't say that gay people were wrong in the eyes of the deity.
i didn't say "thou shalt not kill", except if you do it in the name of the deity; then it would seem, it's ok.
i didn't say that people must act in the way "their father in heaven" would act, or how "he" would want them to act. if "he's" a pretend deity, how would anybody know what "he" wants? As Cindi Jones asked, "do they have his phone number?"
how dare they look me in the eye and give me such load of crap?
what? what'd i say? am i the only one here with her BS radar turned on?
-ell
yes, i'm going back to my little corner now
Hi Tekla,
I understand what you are saying. However, on the subject of churches, not all congregations are of the religious-right.
We don't deserve to get painted by that brush. Most of us don't even vote republican.
Just saying
Rebis
ell: your radar is set so damn high your picking up mixed signals ...
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on December 23, 2007, 12:21:30 PM
ell: your radar is set so damn high your picking up mixed signals ...
R >:D
"You can't tell people anything, I've learned that."
--Andy Warhol
Transsexuals want to keep *that thing* and *enlarge it*. Sorry but that is just BS.
tink :icon_chick:
ROFL, where the HELL did you hear that one?
*sigh* morons ><
also
'when they get the surgery, transexuals take thier dick and balls home in a jar'
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 23, 2007, 01:11:39 PM
ROFL, where the HELL did you hear that one?
*sigh* morons ><
also
'when they get the surgery, transexuals take thier dick and balls home in a jar'
R :police:
You would be surprised where, hon! ;) ;D
tink :icon_chick:
go on then :D
dont keep me in suspenders!
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on December 23, 2007, 01:47:12 PM
go on then :D
dont keep me in suspenders!
R >:D
Come on! you are a smart girl! You don't want me to tell you "things" ;) ;D
I can't! :eusa_shhh:
tink :icon_chick:
Re; conservative and liberal, everything has been compacted into 10 second soundbites which are purposely designed to create division between people. There are no 100% "red" and "blue" states, many states were a 51 to 49 split, thus all states are really "purple".
Some people criticize liberals for spending more taxes on social issues, meanwhile so called fiscal conservatives who don't want "big government" are spending obscene amounts of money on a war that many people don't want.
People of all religions are starting to speak out against the ultra right wing fundamentalist factions, and that's a good thing. There of plenty of people out there whose religious beliefs don't denigrate anyone, and who take actions based on their belief system. I'm not a Christian, but my perception of Jesus is that he was a radical Jew with socialist leanings, I have no problem with followers of that Jesus ;D
y2g
Quote from: y2gender on December 23, 2007, 02:01:48 PM
I have no problem with followers of that Jesus ;D
y2g
well, I do! I hate it when they follow Jesus so closely that when he stops walking, they bump into him. I don't know why he doesn't have them walk further back a little.
Jesus... is not the problem... IIRC, he did not write the bible...
R >:D
That we have a transgender agenda. (like we could even agree on such a thing if we had one :P)
That we are actively recruiting kids to become trans!
y2g
Posted on: December 23, 2007, 04:10:58 PM
Quote from: Rachael on December 23, 2007, 03:56:58 PM
Jesus... is not the problem... IIRC, he did not write the bible...
R >:D
Not only did Jesus not write the bible, but none of the books in the New Testament were written by any of his actual disciples either. I think the first book was written approx 70 years later.
BTW R, I love the current quote under your pic "Hunting Santaclaus with a rocketlauncher"! LOL
y2g
did Santa Claus write the Bible? ???
Quote from: y2gender on December 23, 2007, 02:01:48 PM
Re; conservative and liberal, everything has been compacted into 10 second soundbites which are purposely designed to create division between people. There are no 100% "red" and "blue" states, many states were a 51 to 49 split, thus all states are really "purple".
Some people criticize liberals for spending more taxes on social issues, meanwhile so called fiscal conservatives who don't want "big government" are spending obscene amounts of money on a war that many people don't want.
People of all religions are starting to speak out against the ultra right wing fundamentalist factions, and that's a good thing. There of plenty of people out there whose religious beliefs don't denigrate anyone, and who take actions based on their belief system. I'm not a Christian, but my perception of Jesus is that he was a radical Jew with socialist leanings, I have no problem with followers of that Jesus ;D
y2g
Finally, an intelligent quote. That's precisely who Jesus was. Thanks so much!
No you can't offend me and my personal beliefs. I am way too secure in them for that. You certainly have a right to yours as well, and I defend that right. However, what is truly lamentable is the amount of stuff mentioned in these recent posts that seem to stereotype churches and Christians into something I have NEVER experienced in the church, and I've been a part of it more years than some of these people have been alive. My only request is not to take your ignorance and parade it as knowledge. Misrepresenting Christian beliefs and theology, and the agenda of the church is never helpful to the debate. You do yourself a great disservice here.
I only repeat again, if you want to engage in stereotypes, then don't gripe when others stereotype you. For myself I reject all of it. Now I am out of here.
Peace!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
there are stereotypes and generalizations for everything. As difficult as it is (and I know I have a hard time with it) we should all try to remember to avoid generalizations and stereotypes. I think their use tends to flow from writing a post too quickly or when a statement calls up a negative emotion.
What was the topic of this thread again?
Quote from: Rebis on December 23, 2007, 10:20:42 PM
What was the topic of this thread again?
Wasn't it something to do with Jesus' followers bumping into him when they walked too close? ;) :P
y2g
Oh yeah. I forgot. :laugh:
Quote from: Kristi on December 23, 2007, 10:01:31 PM
Misrepresenting Christian beliefs and theology, and the agenda of the church is never helpful to the debate.
sorry, Kristi, but the topic was about myths. are you saying Christianity is not a myth? well, the dictionary says that it is. here is a typical definition of a myth:
"In the academic fields of mythology, mythography, or folkloristics, a myth (mythos) is a sacred story concerning the origins of the world or how the world and the creatures in it came to be in their present form. The active beings in myths are generally gods and heroes. Myths often are said to take place before recorded history begins. In saying that a myth is a sacred narrative, what is meant is that a myth is believed to be true by people who attach religious or spiritual significance to it. Use of the term by scholars does not imply that the narrative is either true or false. See also legend and tale." -- Wikipedia
and jfyi, i did not say all conservatives were Christians. please read the post before you attack. i said our conservatives were Christians,
for the most part. therefore i did not say they
all were.
-ell
i am
in my little corner now, don't bother me.
i think religion qualifies as slightly more than a myth ;) lets not get all arsy! its Christmas!
Ashley Michelle: lol weak.
lets keep the myths coming....
'People change sex, men become women'
'people CHOOSE to transition, its a consious decisision, like what colour to paint the kitchen, or what car to get.'
'non ops arnt TS because they arnt hugely afraid of penis'
'Post ops are better than preops, and thier word is law on any topic, because they have a vagina like...'
'the ->-bleeped-<- hierarchy: CD-non op, pre op, post op. (people poop down)'
'Rachael smiles'
R >:D
Racheal I couldnt agree more those MYTHS NEED TO DIE QUICK LIKE SEE!!
Merry Christmas to you too.
Quote from: Rachael on December 24, 2007, 03:26:32 AM
'the ->-bleeped-<- hierarchy: CD-non op, pre op, post op. (people poop down)'
'Rachael smiles'
R >:D
Androgynes, genderqueers, etc are so low on the totem pole that we don't even get mentioned at all! What are we, chopped liver? >:D :P ;)
y2g
She also forgot that post ops themselves are seperated in
Unpassable, Passable, the passable separated in Non Stealth, Almost Stealth and Deep Stealth, Non Stealth separated in Activists, Performers and Plain don't give a crap.
I could separate all of those in sub-sections according to socio-economic status, beauty, number of freckles, etc.
All of this to say, that our community, which is already a very very small minority, is one of the most self-segrated ones there is... And this aint a myth.
Actually, the myth is that all TS somehow commune with the same mind ;)
Hi Ell,
Would you like me to hold your hand? :)
:icon_bunch:
Quote from: Keira on December 24, 2007, 11:21:03 AM
She also forgot that post ops themselves are seperated in
Unpassable, Passable, the passable separated in Non Stealth, Almost Stealth and Deep Stealth, Non Stealth separated in Activists, Performers and Plain don't give a crap.
I could separate all of those in sub-sections according to socio-economic status, beauty, number of freckles, etc.
All of this to say, that our community, which is already a very very small minority, is one of the most self-segrated ones there is... And this aint a myth.
Actually, the myth is that all TS somehow commune with the same mind ;)
O my!!! How about a few million communities of one!!
Quote from: y2gender on December 24, 2007, 11:11:28 AM
Quote from: Rachael on December 24, 2007, 03:26:32 AM
'the ->-bleeped-<- hierarchy: CD-non op, pre op, post op. (people poop down)'
'Rachael smiles'
R >:D
Androgynes, genderqueers, etc are so low on the totem pole that we don't even get mentioned at all! What are we, chopped liver? >:D :P ;)
y2g
well, there are some people who won't or can't begin (or continue) transitioning to their target gender, and so stay in a limbo state and call themselves Androgynes. they get flak from both angles: the "->-bleeped-<-r than thou's" don't seem to want "men in dresses" in the community because they think it brings negative attention and a negative image to being transsexual. so they don't want such people to even begin transition. but by pleasing the "->-bleeped-<-r than thou's" by not attempting to transition, then the regular trans people say, if you are pre-HRT are you really a member of the "community"? we are taking great risks to transition, at any cost, even if we don't know for sure if we will pass or not: what are you doing? then the ->-bleeped-<-r than thou's come back with the double whammy and the double bind: "Transition is not a choice!"
The "community" will drive you crazy. Please proceed as you think best.
-ell
I think ell has a point, In my opinion this should be the most accepting community of all.
If a individual wants to call themselves a Andro TS then let them,
I tried to do that for myself and personally know what its like to get double whammyied here on susans, so I polietly said OK.
In fact one of the former posts in this thread is something like
MYTH: You can be in two categories, like Andro and TS.
So at this point I am finding people in the same thread with opposing views on the myth of classification, but lets face it you can be whatever you want, who cares It doesnt hurt you, it doesnt even hurt the "TS" image, I mean common things will change as a whole not just for the TS community, so dont expect just TS's to be accepted one day, cause we wont until ALL Transgender individuals are recgonized.
In my opinion I think it is unique that there are individuals out there that trancend the stereo typical boundaries of the distinct classifications that exist in our current community, and it just goes further to show the true nature of human gender, and should not be forced to "Fit". ITS AWESOME that we are all different and it should be CELEBRATED!!!!
Quote from: Rebis on December 24, 2007, 11:31:26 AM
Hi Ell,
Would you like me to hold your hand? :)
:icon_bunch:
Yes. yes i would like that.
Quote from: Keira on December 24, 2007, 11:21:03 AM
She also forgot that post ops themselves are seperated in
Unpassable, Passable, the passable separated in Non Stealth, Almost Stealth and Deep Stealth, Non Stealth separated in Activists, Performers and Plain don't give a crap.
LOL, so true!
Quote from: ell on December 24, 2007, 11:55:47 AM
well, there are some people who won't or can't begin (or continue) transitioning to their target gender, and so stay in a limbo state and call themselves Androgynes. they get flak from both angles: the "->-bleeped-<-r than thou's" don't seem to want "men in dresses" in the community because they think it brings negative attention and a negative image to being transsexual. so they don't want such people to even begin transition. but by pleasing the "->-bleeped-<-r than thou's" by not attempting to transition, then the regular trans people say, if you are pre-HRT are you really a member of the "community"? we are taking great risks to transition, at any cost, even if we don't know for sure if we will pass or not: what are you doing? then the ->-bleeped-<-r than thou's come back with the double whammy and the double bind: "Transition is not a choice!"
The "community" will drive you crazy. Please proceed as you think best.
-ell
Absolutely true. This has also been touched on in the thread about self loathing and transphobia, there are those who take out their feelings of inadequacy on other perceived "lesser" groups within the "community".
Quote from: maragirlygirr on December 24, 2007, 12:17:02 PM
In my opinion I think it is unique that there are individuals out there that trancend the stereo typical boundaries of the distinct classifications that exist in our current community, and it just goes further to show the true nature of human gender, and should not be forced to "Fit". ITS AWESOME that we are all different and it should be CELEBRATED!!!!
Yes, there's a million and one unique and beautiful ways to be trans. Let's celebrate our diversity of genders!
y2g
PS, hand held :icon_hug:
Quote from: Butterfly on December 24, 2007, 12:22:53 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on December 16, 2007, 02:20:08 PM
Re: Myths in our community that need to die a quick death
.....how about the our community myth.
Being the devils advocate..I have got to agree with Berliegh >:D
sod devils advocate... there IS no community... we simply knaw at eachothers throats cosnstantly...
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 24, 2007, 01:26:54 PM
sod devils advocate... there IS no community... we simply knaw at eachothers throats cosnstantly...
R :police:
Which is fairly typical behavior of a family ;) :P
y2g
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 24, 2007, 01:40:02 PM
you mean..... we're dysfunctional?!?
Us??? Trans people?? ::)
y2g
I think they both mean we are hysfunctional and quite naturally feel more at home gnawing the throats of those we are intimate with in some ways. Not so many trust issues as with complete strangers! LOL
Nichole
Quote from: Rachael on December 24, 2007, 01:26:54 PM
we simply [gnaw] at each others throats cosnstantly...
R :police:
gothique says we do it for the drama.
Quote from: Butterfly on December 24, 2007, 12:22:53 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on December 16, 2007, 02:20:08 PM
Re: Myths in our community that need to die a quick death
.....how about the our community myth.
Being the devils advocate..I have got to agree with Berliegh >:D
The 'our community' myth is not a myth but for those who can not accept that there is a community.
Quote from: Rachael on December 24, 2007, 01:26:54 PM
Quote from: Butterfly on December 24, 2007, 12:22:53 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on December 16, 2007, 02:20:08 PM
Re: Myths in our community that need to die a quick death
.....how about the our community myth.
Being the devils advocate..I have got to agree with Berliegh >:D
sod devils advocate... there IS no community... we simply knaw at eachothers throats cosnstantly...
R :police:
I don't think anyone on the forum is at each others throats but we can occasionally disagree with someone or also agree on some issue's that are discussed from time to time........and it's quite healthy sometimes to pull subjects out in the open rather than pat each other on the back and say 'you look wonderful darling' just to be politically correct.......
Quotecommunity (kÉ™-myÅ«'nÄ-tÄ“)
n., pl. -ties.
1.
1. A group of people living in the same locality and under the same government.
2. The district or locality in which such a group lives.
2.
1. A group of people having common interests: the scientific community; the international business community.
2. A group viewed as forming a distinct segment of society: the gay community; the community of color.
3.
1. Similarity or identity: a community of interests.
2. Sharing, participation, and fellowship.
4. Society as a whole; the public.
5. Ecology.
1. A group of plants and animals living and interacting with one another in a specific region under relatively similar environmental conditions.
2. The region occupied by a group of interacting organisms.
Quote from: Rebis on December 24, 2007, 03:47:13 PM
Quote from: Butterfly on December 24, 2007, 12:22:53 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on December 16, 2007, 02:20:08 PM
Re: Myths in our community that need to die a quick death
.....how about the our community myth.
Being the devils advocate..I have got to agree with Berliegh >:D
The 'our community' myth is not a myth but for those who can not accept that there is a community.
this community does not fit the site definition of 'community' and as such we shall hear no more duscussion of this matter...
our road, or the highroad!
R :police:
are my socks a myth? Because sometimes I wish they'd die a quick death.
(I wormed my way out of being punished by Rachael by changing the topic heh heh)
Quote from: Berliegh on December 24, 2007, 03:48:17 PM
I don't think anyone on the forum is at each others throats but we can occasionally disagree with someone or also agree on some issue's that are discussed from time to time........and it's quite healthy sometimes to pull subjects out in the open rather than pat each other on the back and say 'you look wonderful darling' just to be politically correct.......
So, Berleigh, you want brutal honesty? Is that it?
Nichole
RE: Myths.
It seems clear that Agreement in out community is a myth.
We don't agree on much of anything.
But that is good!
It means Diversity! and that Rocks!
Posted on: December 24, 2007, 05:03:19 PM
Myth: That a Group's stated view accurately represents all individuals within the group.
Whether Trans, Political, or Religous.
we have so much fun being contrary...
hey, happy christmas btw!
special christmas treat to lighten the mood!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ifBeq7tIXc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ifBeq7tIXc) NSFW, or the sensative of lol...
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on December 24, 2007, 07:13:33 PM
we have so much fun being contrary...
hey, happy christmas btw!
special christmas treat to lighten the mood!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ifBeq7tIXc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ifBeq7tIXc) NSFW, or the sensative of lol...
R >:D
Yes, we do. Merry Christmas, Rachael and everyone else as well. Best of everything to all.
Nichole
Rachael,
You can be quite strange sometimes. Merry Christmas!!
Thanks Rachael, the flick rocked. Goes to show you that we do have some things like silliness and mischieviousness in common. Merry Christmas hon.
The big lesson is to learn not to take yourself to seriously, Self-deprecating.
Cindy
Posted on: December 25, 2007, 12:48:54 AM
Strange??? Oh Rebis my friend, didn't we invent that word???
Merry Christmas
Cindy
We diss each other so much...
We're diss-functional.
Just sometimes?
R ???
One thing that needs a quick death is people's morbid fascination with the "transsexual" label. It just breaks my heart >:D when people seek refuge behind a label that only defines a medical condition. It's like saying "I'm flu" or "I'm mumps" what the hell is that?
Yep I have met dysfunctional, mad, insane, crazy, nuts, angry, scared, lost, confused, transsexuals, transgendered, androgyne, bisexual, inter sexual (I like androgynes) because they know how to laugh. :D and a whole lot of other types of people, those that claimed to be Geruse, indigo, empaths, light workers, pagans, and so on, and on. On this message board and at last count, 62 Yahoo Group, two of which I own, a couple of metaphysical meetup groups here in Vancouver.. At times you would swear everyone is having their menstruation all on the same day. Yet I never had a soul say anything to me, not as much as a "!BOOOOOO!" kiss my behind. Well I do thank all my lucky stars and angels in heaven I must be doing something right ;D Well, sometimes I run into a jealous person. I really love being around people, because I love and care for people I come in contact with.
Merry Christmas
Happy Holidays
Cindy
whats better? hiding behind a medical problem you have? or being thought of by random people as a crossdresser, ->-bleeped-<-, or pervert? because they will...
the more people understand TS is medical, the less people with it will need to use it as a liferaft.
R :police:
You say pervert like its a bad thing. Being known as a pervert spares you a lot of small talk.
um? pervert IS a bad thing....
R ::)
Being a true pervert is a bad thing, but being accused of being a pervert for no good reason is just a miserable annoyance.
Gender variant people are not perverts.
Pervert, me, nope, not the last time I checked. I doupt you and I could be any more perverted then castrated duck Rebis hon. Just odd is all, especially if you try plucking feathers off a ruber duck.
Cindy
Hey, people think that a binary gender is limiting, but a single uber/omni sexual code is even more oppressive.
Quote from: tekla on December 25, 2007, 04:45:41 PM
Hey, people think that a binary gender is limiting, but a single uber/omni sexual code is even more oppressive.
I don't understand what this means?
i belive thats a heterosexuality bash...
R :police:
Its a bash on anyone who thinks that there is only one way to love, one right kind of person to love, a set number of people you can love, positions that are more or less sinful, actions that are more or less evil, tastes, proclivities, and desires that are more or less normal or strange. I just want to reclaim pervert from people who would use to to defame and inflame and turn it into a very likable adjective. It should be something that is thought of as being good, not bad. Happy indeed are the perverts who find their complementary partner(s). Bet on that. Might be the happiest people on earth really.
I read no bashing, unless the statement that there are way more than one way to love and accept. If that is a bash at anyone else, then please answer what is being bashed. That sounded inclusive, very inclusive.
Thoughtful Tekla. I have to admit you have just raised my levels of respect for 'perverts.' And made me consider myself. Thank you.
Nichole
Quote from: Rachael on December 25, 2007, 09:53:06 AM
whats better? hiding behind a medical problem you have? or being thought of by random people as a crossdresser, ->-bleeped-<-, or pervert?
R :police:
The former. Yet, why not at least "try" to discard the term
transsexual and replace it by woman or man instead? ;)
Sorry, but I will never like being considered a pervert, even though that's what society says I am. I like children and care about their well-being, to be called a pervert then excludes you from associating with children under any circumstances.
Being seen as a pervert or diviate is probably the worst insult for me than anything else in the world! It breaks my heart. :(
Quote from: Natasha on December 26, 2007, 03:47:25 AM
Quote from: Rachael on December 25, 2007, 09:53:06 AM
whats better? hiding behind a medical problem you have? or being thought of by random people as a crossdresser, ->-bleeped-<-, or pervert?
R :police:
The former. Yet, why not at least "try" to discard the term transsexual and replace it by woman or man instead? ;)
well yeah, but if you cant, whats better than the actuall label? why are we so SCARED of labels?
Tekla: I love only men, and i belive in monogomy.... bash away.
R :police:
Quote from: Natasha on December 26, 2007, 03:47:25 AM
Quote from: Rachael on December 25, 2007, 09:53:06 AM
whats better? hiding behind a medical problem you have? or being thought of by random people as a crossdresser, ->-bleeped-<-, or pervert?
R :police:
The former. Yet, why not at least "try" to discard the term transsexual and replace it by woman or man instead? ;)
I don't want to be a man or a woman. I am neither and would prefer a different title such as "transgender" or "gender variant" or "genderqueer" or even "simian apostate", but please do not tell me I am a man or that I am a woman.
You can be a woman. I have no issue with that.
maybe I can call me a "
Noman". Pronounced like "woman" but meaning not a man/not a woman.
Hoo
Rebis
um, yaknow, correct labels, and mislabeling are two differnet things... ;)
R :police:
I agree with you about the children Buttercup hon. The same year I began my life living full time as Cindy was around the same time that my friend Tracy got ill and she left her three children in my care and it was arranged by Social Services for them to remain with me. They were with me for two years. I was fortunate that it was the same social worker I had for my son, I was also working as a social worker myself in the mental health services branch of SS. My son isn't among us anymore, bless his soul. I loved the people of that little town they turned out to be very supportive and all I can say is may God bless them also.
Not all paces are inhabited by swamp gas fire breathing rednecks who cut their steak with a chainsaw and drink beetlejuice for Java in the morning.
Cindy
Quote from: tekla on December 25, 2007, 09:51:18 PM
Its a bash on anyone who thinks that there is only one way to love, one right kind of person to love, a set number of people you can love, positions that are more or less sinful, actions that are more or less evil, tastes, proclivities, and desires that are more or less normal or strange. I just want to reclaim pervert from people who would use to to defame and inflame and turn it into a very likable adjective.
would you please explain this? i don't see how you can turn that word into a positive thing. i may enjoy receiving a little pain, but nothing excruciating. i may enjoy being a little submissive, and, you know, some of the fun things that go with that. but nothing
terribly demeaning. i don't mind if people refer to me as a little kinky, but still, i would be very hurt and offended if someone called me a pervert. there certainly
are particular acts that
are more or less evil, i.e., they can cause permanent physical or psychological harm.
-ell
Quote from: Rachael on December 25, 2007, 09:53:06 AM
whats better? hiding behind a medical problem you have? or being thought of by random people as a crossdresser, ->-bleeped-<-, or pervert? because they will...
the more people understand TS is medical, the less people with it will need to use it as a liferaft.
R :police:
Of course if you say it's a medical problem, people are going to think it's just that, a problem. And try to cure you. Would rather just have acceptance and not be viewed as anything but myself. Which in my experience is possible. I don't see a huge reason to run around telling people I have a medical condition and that something is wrong with me. Take me for who I am, y'know? Anyone with half a brain is going to figure there's nothing to worry about with me.
Words that are used, as pervert is, to marginalize people and stigmatize them tend to lose that power when adopted. Witness "queer" in the TBGL community, or "freak" in the counter-culture. Many of the people I know in the sex positive community feel the same way about "pervert." The word intended to attack people can be turned into positive thing, or at the very least, we can take the sting out of it. And how exactly is this word used? It is used to define behavior that is not in keeping with the mainstream Christian principals of repression and depravation.
In short, we live in a culture that has a Big Time tendency to demonize sex. And I strongly feel that there needs to be a slow, gradual shift away from that. I understand you can't force it on anybody and I do not want to force it on anybody. But, like many of the people on this board, I have never been good at repressing myself, and I had a hard time, for a long time, accepting that in myself, and in others - much less, being accepted for it.
Among ourselves, we don't even like the "p" word much and think of what we are doing as Responsible Hedonism. We think that RH is a transformational experience for a lot of people (and fully understand that its not for everyone either). And I don't even like the use of the word 'responsible' in there, preferring 'sustainable.' Its not a burn-out deal, its being in touch with the life-giving forces in the universe, and beyond that, being very in touch with what I think is about one of the most central unChristian principals of all, that every desire of your body is holy, sacred, and acting on that is about as close as your going to come to divine.
This is hedonism that doesn't create drama (though is very dramatic) and isn't about excess, but is very strictly focused on pleasure, as both a means and an end. And to the degree that such behavior is thought of as a perversion in a culture where sensual depravation is seen as saintly, well then I'm happy to run with the sinners. And I know I'm not alone. The shortened version - the happy version of 'pervert' is 'pervy' and you will get about 770K google hits on that word. So I'm not alone.
Hi buttercup and all
Well don't believe I was considered to be a pervert, weird maybe and I like weird. I had 11 children under my roof through the years, the last four was with the cooperation of Social services and I really wanted to and I have thought of it since there are opening for working in day care centers.
So I guess that leaves me out of the pervert classification. I'm getting to old to jump all these different gender variant hoops anymore. The old grey mare ain't what she use to be, don't you know? Well especially since she got herself a bullet hole in her butt from back in the civil war.
Bottom line, I would be ready and willing to go to anyone's aid, even perverts.
Cindy
Quote from: Natasha on December 31, 2007, 01:32:42 PM
myth: transsexuals are not perverts. period.
Quote from: tekla on December 31, 2007, 12:43:54 PM
In short, we live in a culture that has a Big Time tendency to demonize sex.
maybe so...but little detail though...transsexualism has nothing to do with sex. this fact needs to be reinforced over and over again in order to "inform" cisgendered people that transsexuals are as "normal" as they are.
Not likely as long as the Transgender Community keeps linking themselves to homosexuals... and dragging transsexuals unwillingly along for the ride.
~Kate~
Quote from: tekla on December 31, 2007, 12:43:54 PM
Among ourselves, we don't even like the "p" word much and think of what we are doing as Responsible Hedonism. We think that RH is a transformational experience for a lot of people (and fully understand that its not for everyone either). And I don't even like the use of the word 'responsible' in there, preferring 'sustainable.' Its not a burn-out deal, its being in touch with the life-giving forces in the universe, and beyond that, being very in touch with what I think is about one of the most central unChristian principals of all, that every desire of your body is holy, sacred, and acting on that is about as close as your going to come to divine.
i'm sorry, but i still feel like you're trying to re-write the dictionary. sex is demonized? what year are we talking about here? Perversion is one of those instances where both psychology and religion agree that the act in question is harmful. certain sexual behaviors are demonized, yes. but, shouldn't they be?
your thinking sounds dangerously close to Raskalnikov's. where does one draw the line? psycho killers, for instance, may have some really depraved desires -- which really shouldn't be acted on.
-ell
Quote from: ell on December 31, 2007, 02:18:26 PM
Quote from: tekla on December 31, 2007, 12:43:54 PM
Among ourselves, we don't even like the "p" word much and think of what we are doing as Responsible Hedonism. We think that RH is a transformational experience for a lot of people (and fully understand that its not for everyone either). And I don't even like the use of the word 'responsible' in there, preferring 'sustainable.' Its not a burn-out deal, its being in touch with the life-giving forces in the universe, and beyond that, being very in touch with what I think is about one of the most central unChristian principals of all, that every desire of your body is holy, sacred, and acting on that is about as close as your going to come to divine.
i'm sorry, but i still feel like you're trying to re-write the dictionary. sex is demonized? what year are we talking about here? Perversion is one of those instances where both psychology and religion agree that the act in question is harmful. certain sexual behaviors are demonized, yes. but, shouldn't they be?
your thinking sounds dangerously close to Raskalnikov's. where does one draw the line? psycho killers, for instance, may have some really depraved desires -- which really shouldn't be acted on.
-ell
perverted
adjective
1. (used of sexual behavior) showing or appealing to bizarre or deviant tastes; "kinky sex"; "perverted practices" [syn: kinky]
Re-writing the dictionary? I am kinky, so as per the dictionary, I am perverted. No harm, no foul.
ahem! whatever.
"Re-writing the dictionary? I am kinky, so as per the dictionary, I am perverted. No harm, no foul."
She shoots, she scores. For the rest, those that would use that word for some of the things I might do, will also use it for what I am, and if you don't think they attach the word to you, your behavior, your choices - then you need to get out more (or at least read the many news items reference at this site that come from the conservative, Christian right wing who thinks that being trans is worse than being gay). To think that you are above this (or more likely beyond this) is an idea in err.
And, many, many people in the US consider any and all sex that is not "man on top, woman on the bottom, let's get it over with quick because we are only doing this so we can procreate" to be kinky and perverted. Those of us who are trying to recreate the Goddess inspired version of a bacchanalia (both at home in the Bay Area and up in the high desert of Black Rock) know where we stand with the Christian/family values people, after all, the Christians didn't like the bacchanalia the first time around. Neither did the Romans, largely because of the power that women hold at such events (woman having power was against Roman 'family values' as it turns out). Of course, was it not the Fundy Xians here in the US who before 9-11 were linking with radical Islam to prevent women's rights charters?
See, the one myth that really needs to die a quick death, is the one that puts one group, or one person over others, thinking they are somehow not like (or better than) the others here. As Ben Franklin once said, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
p.s. I'm not much on psychology or religion, the first merely being a secular version of the second.
Perverted to me brings to mind sick practices that harm others. Window peeping or cellphone cameras to look up ladies' skirts are perverted because they violate the person's privacy. I assume I don't even have to explain why rapists and NAMBLA members are perverted.
What one does with consenting others is not perverted so long as it's not harmful.
Quote from: link=topic=22906.msg181647#msg181647 date=1199137744
Perverted to me brings to mind sick practices that harm others. Window peeping or cellphone cameras to look up ladies' skirts are perverted because they violate the person's privacy. I assume I don't even have to explain why rapists and NAMBLA members are perverted.
What one does with consenting others is not perverted so long as it's not harmful.
Thank you! i'm totally down with kinky, but pervert, as a word, brings up lots of negative stuff like sexual predators, incest, etc.
you're not ok with
that stuff, though, right tekla, right Cire?
Quote from: tekla on December 31, 2007, 03:30:32 PM
For the rest, those that would use that word for some of the things I might do, will also use it for what I am, and if you don't think they attach the word to you, your behavior, your choices -
Speak for yourself. If you consider yourself a pervert. Good. but dont imply that we/I are/am the same as you. What does going out have to do with being perverted? ::)
I do agree with Kate.
QuoteNot likely as long as the Transgender Community keeps linking themselves to homosexuals... and dragging transsexuals unwillingly along for the ride.
~Kate~
Hmmm all we need is the right pee pee to match the gender. Other wise I wouldn't care less if I ever had sex. I think I will stay here in BC now. Here TS's are working to eventually run their own affairs, as we should be, truthfully, I am just me.
Cindy
I'd like peeps to keep in mind that the word 'pervert' and the image that goes along with it has been used to harm, debase and dismiss our community. This is not a term to be embraced and to 'reclaim' it would only cause further damage to our community.
Hi , Cindy bends down on one knee and dofts her hat off with the long plume and says merci Monsieur
Cindy
Quote from: ell on December 31, 2007, 04:00:41 PM
Quote from: link=topic=22906.msg181647#msg181647 date=1199137744
Perverted to me brings to mind sick practices that harm others. Window peeping or cellphone cameras to look up ladies' skirts are perverted because they violate the person's privacy. I assume I don't even have to explain why rapists and NAMBLA members are perverted.
What one does with consenting others is not perverted so long as it's not harmful.
Thank you! i'm totally down with kinky, but pervert, as a word, brings up lots of negative stuff like sexual predators, incest, etc.
you're not ok with that stuff, though, right tekla, right Cire?
Apple to me means a long yellow fruit that needs to be peeled and grows in bunches. Let's just ignore the dictionary quoted and talk about how we "feel" words mean. Actually no, I've quoted my source and backed my claim. I can't control and don't care how you define words, just how they're actually defined.
Perverted to you means rapists and incest, ect. Perverted to others means gays. Perverted to others means us. As long as you use a definition based on your feelings, it can mean anything to anyone.
By definition I'm a pervert. I'm ok with that. Rapists are also perverts. By definition I'm a human. Rapists are also humans. Doesn't matter if some are bad, doesn't make me not a human or a pervert per that definition.
Doesn't matter though. I don't define myself as a pervert, I don't introduce myself as a pervert, but if the definition fits, that's what it is. Has nothing to do with shock or attention, but my acceptance of definition and truth.
Quote from: Pia on December 31, 2007, 04:00:41 PM
Speak for yourself. If you consider yourself a pervert. Good. but dont imply that we/I are/am the same as you.
Agreed. But it seems some people will always enjoy the attention which being "shocking" and different and rebellious brings them.
Which leads to the myth that we change our sex to get attention, to be "special" and different and a protected minority of victimized gender-benders deserved of special recognition and publicity...
~Kate~
Quote from: Cire on December 31, 2007, 04:48:43 PM
Apple to me means a long yellow fruit that needs to be peeled and grows in bunches. Let's just ignore the dictionary quoted and talk about how we "feel" words mean. Actually no, I've quoted my source and backed my claim. I can't control and don't care how you define words, just how they're actually defined.
Perverted to you means rapists and incest, ect. Perverted to others means gays. Perverted to others means us. As long as you use a definition based on your feelings, it can mean anything to anyone.
By definition I'm a pervert. I'm ok with that. Rapists are also perverts. By definition I'm a human. Rapists are also humans. Doesn't matter if some are bad, doesn't make me not a human or a pervert per that definition.
forgive me, Cire, but that's just silly. the language exists in the people first, in the dictionary later. context and implication are
very important. and the word you are toying with has some very bad and serious implications.
but i'm not your momma. refer to yourself however you wish.
-ell
Hi I can only say that probably since the age of three when I first heard the word, it was emphasised to me that it was not a nice word nor is the person that is labeled as such. Have you ever been called a pervert back in school, along with all those other nice choice words kids can cook up just to be mean and hurtful? I don't know or care that if the word has been scrubbed squeaky clean in the dictionary in this day and age. It isn't a nice word to me and never will. And I am a pretty open person. "Ding, ding," the bell goes off and the trap door under the contestants chair opens up and contestant and chair disappear in a little cloud of dust then the trap door slams shut again.
Cindy
Its only possible to reclaim "bad" words when their meaning is narrowly used as an insult towards
you and has little other meaning, like "negro" or "queer". Queer had another broader definition, and its sometimes used in that way still, but it mainly was used towards gays.
A diminutive like ->-bleeped-<-, which is sort of pejorative, but not overly so, could be reclaimed.
But, I don't see that pervert will ever be reclaimed unless its in a joking matter (I have
seen it used in that way).
Quote from: ell on December 31, 2007, 05:03:38 PM
forgive me, Cire, but that's just silly. the language exists in the people first, in the dictionary later. context and implication are very important. and the word you are toying with has some very bad and serious implications.
but i'm not your momma. refer to yourself however you wish.
-ell
Consider implications? Pssh. I'd have to consider the implications of considering myself bisexual, consider the implications of considering myself transexual. Both of those terms have "very bad and serious implications" with many people, but I don't care.
This is an online forum. I don't call myself a pervert, I don't have a shirt that says pervert, I'm not refering to myself to anyone that matters this way. All that matters is that I meet the criteria of a definition. Whatever that implies is up to someone else. If I'm an apple, I don't care if someone else thinks of bananna when I say apple.
"Reclaiming a word" is a silly premise. It was never anyone's word, it's just a word.
ok, you wanna be a pervert, be a pervert. why argue about it and get all hostile?
Quote from: Kate on December 31, 2007, 01:55:35 PM
Quote from: Natasha on December 31, 2007, 01:32:42 PM
myth: transsexuals are not perverts. period.
Quote from: tekla on December 31, 2007, 12:43:54 PM
In short, we live in a culture that has a Big Time tendency to demonize sex.
maybe so...but little detail though...transsexualism has nothing to do with sex. this fact needs to be reinforced over and over again in order to "inform" cisgendered people that transsexuals are as "normal" as they are.
Not likely as long as the Transgender Community keeps linking themselves to homosexuals... and dragging transsexuals unwillingly along for the ride.
~Kate~
i know and this is why i'm in favor of a ts-only community!
Is there some over-arching and valid reason to 'reclaim' pervert? Pray tell what it might be then?
Kate, your homophobia is showing. I was unaware that you had that problem with me and my partner!
No one is dragging me anywhere, at least not yet. Nor do I think that a political alliance drags anyone anywhere. Historically the LG world has been the world that tended to accept TSes and other 'fringe' groups more readily than the straight world ever did.
And i think that if the straight world is ever going to see that we are not JUST homosexuals, that we must first teach that to our LBG cohorts. TSes are a gender-based tribe with a sexual mixture that covers the range of human sexuality. Where, exactly, does anyone here think we are going to discover acceptance? From Focus on the Family? Maybe in 500 years.
The lack of acceptance of TSes is not the 'fault' of polys, LBG, androgynes, TGs, straights or BDSMs.
It's our own damned fault, to paraphrase Jimmy Buffet.
So many of us live in fear and our own reclusiveness that most people never even notice us. They notice the people like the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Tr-Essers and others who walk openly and often in-your-face among them.
Most TS men and women would rather be simply left alone with insurance coverage for surgeries and anti-bias legislations for employments. Of course, to do that we would also have to openly admit who and where we are and refuse to continue 'blending' so well that most people never even know we are there after awhile.
In other words, much of our 'community' runs on fear. Me among the rest.
Ya know, I really do hate saying this, but if we are going to reach and gain acceptance then we have to get up, out of the house and allow people to know who we are. Allow them to know we have been teaching their children, pumping their gas, taking their bill payments, supplying their oil and water and electricity, fighting their wars and polishing their cars for ages while they never knew we were there.
I hate to admit that because my LAST desire is to be open and out, because I feel an internal hurt with the idea of doing that.
But, to blame the LBG and TGs for the lack of acceptance of ourselves is a cop-out and totally disingenuous.
It's our own damned fault.
The other answer is the one Natasha just suggested: a community of our own. Once they called that a ghetto.
Nichole
Hi Nichole,
Thank you for writing that. I've grown weary of the effort of trying to even bother anymore.
The thread was making me physically ill and now I can run away from it with one positive influence.
Also, for TS's who do not want to reveal themselves in order to advance their own quality of life: It is okay for you to be stealth, but you should at least appreciate the people who come out in order to make a difference.
Bye bye bye,
Rebis
I agree with Ell.
Quoteok, you wanna be a pervert, be a pervert. why argue about it and get all hostile?
I am who I am, I am a 62 year old trans woman, and damned well proud of it. No one appears to know or care nor does anyone give me a hard time and I don't give anyone else a hard time. Actually I get along with pretty well anyone. I am just a likable person. OK that's enough, my arm is getting sore trying to pat myself on the back. ;D
Cindy
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 31, 2007, 07:47:55 PM
The lack of acceptance of TSes...
But the "acceptance of TSs" isn't my concern. Living my life as an ordinary woman is. You can't have it both ways, and sooner or later people who change their sex have to decide which they are: a transsexual part of some cult-like gender-variant "community," or an ordinary woman/man part of mainstream society.
QuoteYa know, I really do hate saying this, but if we are going to reach and gain acceptance then we have to get up, out of the house and allow people to know who we are.
The people in my life know who I am. That's as far as it needs to go for me. I'm just not looking for acceptance "as a transsexual" as the
TransGENDERED Community seems to insist and want I do. There IS no
TransSEXUAL Community - there are only individuals, mostly mainstream, who just happen to have changed their sex.
I used to view the
Transgendered Community as an annoying, though harmless entity. More and more though I'm realizing it's my enemy, as ruthless, impersonal and agenda-driven as any right-wing religious group, determined to alienate me from the very Mainstream Society that I count as my home.
~Kate~
I split off my last post on this thread, simply because, like Rebis, I find no further good coming from the thread. It seems to me that it has become a lashing out at homosexuals, TGs, other TSes who differ in what they see and do from many of us posting here.
And quite frankly, yes. I doubt anyone ever thinks of my partner and I as 'homosexuals.' We are just a couple of women who make a great couple. We don't walk around with signs on our backs or stencils on our foreheads that read: LESBIAN.
The problem with this thread is that it has lost all sight, as best I can tell, of human beings and has raised the great I above all else. For me, that is more than I can stomach.
Cheers,
Nichole
Do we need to get all upset at the beginning of a new year? Here in Germany it's already January 1st and I thought I'd come here to see how everything is coming along. I'm disappointed to say that it's the same as always and that saddens me. Ughhh
Yes Yvonne, I quite agree.
Happy Holidays
Cindy
Not sure if its worth it to post here, since everybody says they're not reading it ;)
But,I think the overiding issue here is that myth that there is a community.
A corollary to this myth is that its well defined
and everyone agrees who's in it and what's its agenda is (who sets this agenda?).
Being TS is not a good basis for a community and my opinion is the same for
the "gay community" as a whole. If there is such a thing really...
Most gays I know are closer to stealth TS than their mythic community.
One couple I know, their relationship is a non-issue and their presentation is middle of the road.
They are boringly normal and while some may know they're gay, its
just a small part of who they are not an overarching theme and as that
it just one more thing you know about them. They're absolute love of art is
what hits you when you see them and they are part of the art community
and own two galleries.
The tie that binds us pre-stealth is mainly a need at various level,
for political influence; that's kinda a weak basis for a community.
Post integration, stealth TS gain influence of women and in join a particular
women's community that suits them. There is more choice, which makes
this option more attractive than staying with other TS who if they are
transitioning, or out and proud, are in a much different place than them.
To join a community, you have to feel a commonality. What's common between
a transitioning TS and a post-op stealth TS? A shared history? Perhaps (not
even a certainty). But, for everything else, there is just about no common point.
Its the fact TS join another party that drives TS out activists mad.
But, usually you join a party that support your more pressing
immediate interests. That's what everybody else does! Why should any TS be different.
It's slightly selfish, but it's also mostly human nature.
That's one thing we can agree on. We are human and as such we are complex creatures.
Quote from: Kate on December 31, 2007, 08:27:07 PM
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 31, 2007, 07:47:55 PM
The lack of acceptance of TSes...
But the "acceptance of TSs" isn't my concern. Living my life as an ordinary woman is. You can't have it both ways, and sooner or later people who change their sex have to decide which they are: a transsexual part of some cult-like gender-variant "community," or an ordinary woman/man part of mainstream society.
QuoteYa know, I really do hate saying this, but if we are going to reach and gain acceptance then we have to get up, out of the house and allow people to know who we are.
The people in my life know who I am. That's as far as it needs to go for me. I'm just not looking for acceptance "as a transsexual" as the TransGENDERED Community seems to insist and want I do. There IS no TransSEXUAL Community - there are only individuals, mostly mainstream, who just happen to have changed their sex.
I used to view the Transgendered Community as an annoying, though harmless entity. More and more though I'm realizing it's my enemy, as ruthless, impersonal and agenda-driven as any right-wing religious group, determined to alienate me from the very Mainstream Society that I count as my home.
~Kate~
im with kate on this....
whats the point of acceptance?
why bother? if your transitioning to be TS, fine, im doing it to be a girl. i want to be accepted as a girl, not a tgirl, not a ts woman, just, a, GIRL.
The Trans community acts like a dead body, dragging people down with its agenda and insane views, this thread has exposed many...
why cant we be parts of the COMUNITY COMMUNITY?
R :police:
I happen to be an activist. Not just for trans or lgb issues, but various things that are important to me. These sort of discussions crop up in other situations. Not everyone wants to be an activist. That's OK, you aren't required to be one. On the other hand, every small thing that each of us does in our own lives can make a difference in how trans people will be accepted in the future.
Some people are going to protest visibly, others might recycle and buy compact florescent light bulbs. It all makes a difference. Do your part in whatever way feels right for you.
y2g
Quote from: cindybc on December 31, 2007, 08:19:30 PM
I agree with Ell.
I am who I am, I am a 62 year old trans woman, and damned well proud of it. No one appears to know or care nor does anyone give me a hard time and I don't give anyone else a hard time. Actually I get along with pretty well anyone. I am just a likable person. OK that's enough, my arm is getting sore trying to pat myself on the back. ;D
Cindy
Except being 62, that pretty much says it for me too. Being stealth has a smell of mothballs associated with it and I just came out of the closet a few years ago. It's not like I advertise that I'm TS. I live a pretty ordinary life. I'm a middle aged professional woman and that's how I present myself. But I'm not ashamed of being a trans woman either. No one has ever asked me but I wouldn't be embarrassed by it either. I'm a quiet activist. My job involves vocational rehab so I do some volunteer work helping other TG's find jobs. I'm not real big on protest marches but I did join the protest outside of Nancy Pelosi's office (she's my Congresswoman) when the ENDA revisions were announced. I do the pride parade too but that's for fun! I go with friends in the Magic Johnson Aids Foundation. I think the straight community considers us queer anyway so I proudly embrace that identity.
Quote from: Kate on December 31, 2007, 08:27:07 PM
The people in my life know who I am. That's as far as it needs to go for me. I'm just not looking for acceptance "as a transsexual" as the TransGENDERED Community seems to insist and want I do. There IS no TransSEXUAL Community - there are only individuals, mostly mainstream, who just happen to have changed their sex.
I used to view the Transgendered Community as an annoying, though harmless entity. More and more though I'm realizing it's my enemy, as ruthless, impersonal and agenda-driven as any right-wing religious group, determined to alienate me from the very Mainstream Society that I count as my home.
~Kate~
i don't understand this remark coming from a global moderator at Susan's.
on behalf of some very sweet people i know who are gender variant, i take great exception to this remark.
whether there is a Trans community or not, there is a Susan's community, and i think you've offended alot of the people in it. don't know if an apology is in order or not.
ok, you're a woman, not TS. we get that. still, you have spent lots of time at Susan's during your transition. you've received a lot of support from others here, and you yourself have helped alot of others.
unfortunately, as you have said, you were not born a female. no matter what surgeries you have to help present yourself to the world as a female, you will always know, in your heart, that you were born a boy. please remember that all gender variants have a very similar, heavy burden to bear.
for whatever reason, transsexualism has burst onto the stage around the world. it's probably not just a passing trend. it includes all kinds of gender variants. i see this as a very positive thing. it seems to me that lots of good will come of it.
there may not be much of a community now. maybe there never will be. but i have a feeling there will soon be alot more people who are transitioning or who identify as gender variant. these people have something in common with you: they're trying to find the courage to drag their lives out of the lost and found and finally start living.
-ell
i hate this old debate...
'u are trans thus u must embrace it and love it'
'be out and proud'
the belief that because you feel trans is a big part of you, doesnt mean it is for everyone.
a TS man or woman are not the same as a gender variant person, or a crossdresser, or a trasvestite. there is only one link between those, that is gender, not being TRANSgender, or that all share some lovely little club membership.
Transexual people CAN leave this behind, and not be obsessed with it being a part of thier personality, or important to them.
Yes the issues gender variant people face are important, and difficult, but they are different. and only gender variant people can truely understand them. I admit freely that i cant understand it.
Kate is right, the transgender community is its own worst enemy. a vicious cycle that traps and marginalises. there isnt a transexual community, there are men and women and the community community... REAL LIFE. not every transexual is in that, but a lot are. The trans community in its veil of acceptance and frilly friendlyness, is nothing more than a smiling assasin.
You may feel you want to shout from the rooftops, gain accpetance, and help people understand you. Dont assume that its something that is required of people, or that more people being out would actually help... i dont think it would tbh...
I dont want aceptance, i dont need it, i recive it automatically as female, people have understood what i am for all of human kinds existance, woman. If you feel you need to explain that. well, dont expect me to need to also.
R :police:
i also believe that as people, we deserve the courtesy to state our opinions/views/feelings whether we are men, women, gender bender, global moderator, staff, non-staff, the president of the u.s., cleopatra queen of the nile or god.
Hi Claire
Queer? Well I prefer weird, I'm use to that one. Well they are only just labels some people need to tell the tomatoes from the potatoes. Lesbian? Yes, although I would not have thought to labeling my partner and I that. I made the decision 5 years ago to seek a relation ship with another Trans woman. My soul mate and I have lived together now for going on 3 years, but it is intimacy that is the real cement in our relation ship. As far as sex goes, I have no interest in it, for reason's I prefer not to talk about.
The work I am working to start is very much like what you do. I am not afraid to go out in public I worked with people as a social worker for 20 years the last 7 years as Cindy, and the thought of going out to work among people doesn't bother me. Outside of working with Trans folks, I will also be working as part of the team for a local Renfest. So my mug being under public scrutiny is certainly an every day event and I love it. I may not be the prettiest woman to look at but people like me and that's all that maters. Being stuck indoors in a rocker knitting sweaters is not in my plans for growing older.
Cindy
Quote from: ell on January 01, 2008, 01:00:13 PM
Quote from: Kate on December 31, 2007, 08:27:07 PM
The people in my life know who I am. That's as far as it needs to go for me. I'm just not looking for acceptance "as a transsexual" as the TransGENDERED Community seems to insist and want I do. There IS no TransSEXUAL Community - there are only individuals, mostly mainstream, who just happen to have changed their sex.
I used to view the Transgendered Community as an annoying, though harmless entity. More and more though I'm realizing it's my enemy, as ruthless, impersonal and agenda-driven as any right-wing religious group, determined to alienate me from the very Mainstream Society that I count as my home.
~Kate~
i don't understand this remark coming from a global moderator at Susan's.
on behalf of some very sweet people i know who are gender variant, i take great exception to this remark.
whether there is a Trans community or not, there is a Susan's community, and i think you've offended alot of the people in it. don't know if an apology is in order or not.
Yes, an apology is warranted. I phrased that poorly and WAY too loosely. I do apologize.
I mentioned this in another thread (now deleted)... that the TG community I was referring to is the agenda-driven, political and organized effort to legally and socially classify people who change their sex as "transsexuals," as a special and separate third gender.
I DIDN'T mean the informal "community" of TGs overall, either here or in general, or the community of people in my life. My frustration and fear is only with the political wing aspect that I see as doing more harm than good... at LEAST for transsexuals who are just trying to blend in again.
I DO understand the need for legislation and whatnot to protect people who exist outside the gender binary or heterosexuality. But for someone who is doing everything she can to fit back INTO that binary, it doesn't make sense to include myself in that group. I'll *support* those efforts, but I don't want to be misrepresented... any more than an androgyne would want to be included in a group representing TSs. It's not bigotry, it's not "better than," it's just *inaccurate* and misleading.
My apologies to you and those whom I offended.
~Kate~
Hi -ell hun
I consider myself as just me. I had my humble beginnings here on Susan's 7 years ago then I was off and busy living a productive life as a social worker. I was also involved in a couple other message boards for intuatives, but these boards for what ever reason appeared to just die off, like overnight practically. So here I am one day cleaning out my email box and "lo and behold" Susan's Transgender staring up at me like a big neon sign with all these colors and sparklies and all with a big red arrow pointing to it. ;D So here I am, back to my humble beginnings, but I am truly happy to be back here, my old home with many wonderful young adults young enough to be my kids. At least this is giving me purpose until I get set up her for my next job.
I'm really glad I came back because it's not what's in it for me, it is what can I contribute.
Cindy
Posted on: January 01, 2008, 01:58:34 PM
Hi Kate, your apologies are accepted, I didn't really think you were like that. For me I haven't been on any teams after I left here 7 years ago, I was just me. In this board I am a trans woman looking to see where she can give some support where ever needed.
Cindy
Okay, Kate.
I totally misjudged you as N said. I am sorry for that. I know that you meant your comments about no one here. I hope you'll forgive me.
N~
sigh. damn :icon_no:
we gotta remember we're family & we dont agree w/each other sometimes. that's cool. everythin is cool. :) :) :)
happy new year 2008! :) :) :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw6F3Sf-PGw
sometimes I worry.
Awwwwwwwwwwwww, shucks, Cindy blushes, and here I didn't think I had any family.
Tanks Chris. Sending a telepathic kiss. "hee, hee, hee." ;D
Cindy
Quote from: Kate on January 01, 2008, 01:53:55 PM
My apologies to you and those whom I offended.
~Kate~
Kate,
Thanks for your apology. I wasn't offended, we all have our opinions. I'd written a response to the now deleted other thread, however it got locked just at the time I tried to submit it. Oh well. Although we might live in different worlds, and don't always agree on everything, I often find your comments about life as Kate to be enlightening and inspirational in my own journey of discovery.
To me, one of the things that keeps me active in this community at Susan's is the real feeling of community here. I often learn more about myself by participating in discussions, and share about my own experiences in the hopes that it will help someone else not feel the isolation that I felt for so long.
Happy new years everyone!
zythyra
Hi y2gender I do so agree with you and I did what I could to keep emotions from reaching escape velocity. And that other topic and it's creator have appeared to have taken a hike, thank goodness.
Cindy
i must be blind, i never saw the seething emotions going on...
kate, your completely right, as a woman your revolution is to be as whole complete and happy as possible.
Old, but a good conversation. Which myths in our community need to die a quick death?
Quote from: FA on June 12, 2014, 11:36:35 AM
Old, but a good conversation. Which myths in our community need to die a quick death?
Well I'm not going to go back and read everything. Here's my list:
* Transgirls are just super-gay guys.
* We all knew at a young age
* We all couldn't stop ourselves from cross-dressing
* We're all women in a man's body (or vice-versa).
* We all hate our genitals
* Most of us don't pass
* Most of us are sex workers
* Most of us get SRS
* We're neurotic
* We're not real men/women for the purpose of dating
* We were abused/babied/coddled/mistreated/etc. as children
* We grow out of it.
* We're often mistaken about our gender and need to transition
* We regret our transitions and surgeries
* Transwomen are overly concerned with fashion, etc.
* All transwomen are caricatures of women
* Transwomen are pushovers and easy marks
* Transwomen couldn't make it as men
* Transmen just want to be men for the "privilege" it brings
* Transwomen feel like women "inside". Transmen feel like men "inside".
* Transition is easy. There are lots of resources that help us transition.
There's more, but I don't want carpal tunnel.
"Trans men and women are inherently supporting the gender binary in a bad way just by existing."
"Non-binary people aren't really trans."
"Every person who transitions does so because of gender roles."
"All trans people need to adhere to gender roles or they are not really their gender."
"Trans people who like some of or many of the roles that are attributed to their gender only like them because they're attributed to their gender."
"Gender doesn't actually exist."
"Gender is the same as gender roles."
"Brains are not real, biological organs that can be found in our skulls that happen to be sexually dimorphic."
"Brains being sexually dimorphic automatically means there's a biological reason for gender roles despite there being no evidence of this."
"I don't need to back that up with facts because more research needs to be done. This somehow negates all research that has been done so far."
I can probably come up with more.
Quote from: Edge on June 12, 2014, 11:55:40 AM
"Trans men and women are inherently supporting the gender binary in a bad way just by existing."
"Non-binary people aren't really trans."
"Every person who transitions does so because of gender roles."
"All trans people need to adhere to gender roles or they are not really their gender."
"Trans people who like some of or many of the roles that are attributed to their gender only like them because they're attributed to their gender."
"Gender doesn't actually exist."
"Gender is the same as gender roles."
"Brains are not real, biological organs that can be found in our skulls that happen to be sexually dimorphic."
"Brains being sexually dimorphic automatically means there's a biological reason for gender roles despite there being no evidence of this."
"I don't need to back that up with facts because more research needs to be done. This somehow negates all research that has been done so far."
I can probably come up with more.
I was going to list the same myths, so I'll add some different ones I've encountered to the thread.
"If there weren't gender roles, we'd all be comfortable with our bodies."
"Most trans men transition to take advantage of male privilege."
"Most trans women transition because they have a fetish for lesbians."
"Trans men are a conspiracy to eradicate strong women."
"In a society without gender roles, we wouldn't exist."
"If you don't want all the surgeries, you're not really transgender."
How about my favorite of late from the nutjobs:
Transwomen are nothing more than sexual predators and perverts who get off by using the ladies' restrooms.
Quote from: Jill F on June 12, 2014, 02:15:39 PM
How about my favorite of late from the nutjobs:
Transwomen are nothing more than sexual predators and perverts who get off by using the ladies' restrooms.
Yep. I confess. You caught me. Nothing gets me hot like walking into a stall and seeing bloody tampons or piss on the seat from a "hoverer".
I Think we need to Get rid of the myths on what makes something a good or a bad place to be trans, specially when we Think of something as gay Rights.
a gay friendly country is not nessesarry the same as a transfriendly country and we have to notice hos we jugde these standards.
Giving you an exemple. Lets say a country who Got really good gay Rights, and gay marrige, and have hate crime Laws With options of treatment for trans People. Sound like a good country to be trans?
But then lets go into details saying gay People are only acceptere because trans arnt, they do have marrige but Nobody asked for it and maybe it not something special in there culture. the hate crime law they Got is very limited and only work for very few caises, and the threatment transgender Can Get are horrible. then its not a good place to be trans.
People who live there are also told they Can "just" move, which is certaibly not always the caise and never easy.
In general we just nede to realise that the stander and Way we experience trans is not the same anywhere, and we Cant jugde a society simply because there are Many fact which need to be considered.
Quote from: Laura Squirrel on June 12, 2014, 02:25:08 PM
Yep. I confess. You caught me. Nothing gets me hot like walking into a stall and seeing bloody tampons or piss on the seat from a "hoverer".
Bahahaha, that's perfect.
Quote from: Natkat on June 12, 2014, 04:23:34 PM
I Think we need to Get rid of the myths on what makes something a good or a bad place to be trans, specially when we Think of something as gay Rights.
a gay friendly country is not nessesarry the same as a transfriendly country and we have to notice hos we jugde these standards.
Giving you an exemple. Lets say a country who Got really good gay Rights, and gay marrige, and have hate crime Laws With options of treatment for trans People. Sound like a good country to be trans?
But then lets go into details saying gay People are only acceptere because trans arnt, they do have marrige but Nobody asked for it and maybe it not something special in there culture. the hate crime law they Got is very limited and only work for very few caises, and the threatment transgender Can Get are horrible. then its not a good place to be trans.
People who live there are also told they Can "just" move, which is certaibly not always the caise and never easy.
In general we just nede to realise that the stander and Way we experience trans is not the same anywhere, and we Cant jugde a society simply because there are Many fact which need to be considered.
Good point. And vice versa. Some countries are okay with people transitioning as opposed to homosexuality.
That trans women are docile and harmless and make easy marks.
Dean Schmitz might still be alive if he'd understood.
Quote from: suzifrommd on June 12, 2014, 05:10:07 PM
That trans women are docile and harmless and make easy marks.
The guy I punched in the face at The House of Blues last year obviously didn't get that memo.
That a guy has to be gay or Bi to be attracted to or date me (or ANY trans woman and vice versa and everything else lol) *This is highly insulting and basically says that I'm a man. I mean it took a long time to get to where I got with my BF who told me yesterday he wants it just to be me and him forever, which is so amazing I still feel dizzy.*
Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 12, 2014, 09:30:01 PM
That a guy has to be gay or Bi to be attracted to or date me (or ANY trans woman and vice versa and everything else lol) *This is highly insulting and basically says that I'm a man. I mean it took a long time to get to where I got with my BF who told me yesterday he wants it just to be me and him forever, which is so amazing I still feel dizzy.*
I agree that this is a huge myth. As female I had a lot of lesbians who had never been with anyone male bodied, and had no interest in doing so, show a lot of interest in me despite my extra "appendage." I also had straight men hit on me and one time I told one I had a penis just to get rid of him but he said he didn't care. =/
Quote from: Natkat on June 12, 2014, 04:23:34 PM
I Think we need to Get rid of the myths on what makes something a good or a bad place to be trans, specially when we Think of something as gay Rights.
This is so true, even on a state-by-state basis here in the US. I'd extend it to businesses and social groups as well. Some of the gay-friendliest places are some of the most transphobic, sadly.
I'm sure I'm echoing a couple, but these are the ones I've seen most often within the community and they need to go, like yesterday.
"Trans guys can't be gay, you're just a girl who thinks gay guys are hot."
"As soon as you start passing as a guy, it's all male privilege and no more gender discrimination."
"Trans guys are just in it for the male privilege, they're not as transgender as trans women."
"If you're not a macho guy, you're not really transgender."
"If you're not a SUPER macho guy, you're probably 'just' genderqueer."
"If you don't pack, you're not really transgender."
"Being submissive makes you less transgender."
"You're not really transgender until you start T."
"Transgender people shouldn't be religious."
"Oh, your family will come around eventually, it just takes time." No, not all of us are so lucky.
"You're not allowed to have a preference, transgender people should be happy with anyone who's into them."
"If you don't pass 100%, you don't deserve to insist on your proper pronouns."
"If you decide to live stealth, you're betraying the community."
And the list goes on.
Much of this sound more like pet peeves than myths.
Quote from: LordKAT on June 12, 2014, 10:20:43 PM
Much of this sounds more like pet peeves than myths.
I've never had a Peeve for a pet. Are they a gentle creature?
Quote from: Laura Squirrel on June 12, 2014, 02:25:08 PM
Yep. I confess. You caught me. Nothing gets me hot like walking into a stall and seeing bloody tampons or piss on the seat from a "hoverer".
I about died when I saw this. As weird as the men's room is, I don't miss the ladies for a moment.
My biggest one right now is about partners. That our partners are gay/straight/perverts/->-bleeped-<-s because they date us.
The other one is that we are all abused. A lot of children are abused. I was not. I had a happy childhood. People can't seem to grasp that.
Quote from: Laura Squirrel on June 12, 2014, 11:45:18 PM
I've never had a Peeve for a pet. Are they a gentle creature?
Rarely.
I think one myth that is bothersome is that we are all insane and need intervention. The therapy rule doesn't help this image.
These might be more peevish than myth but:
- the idea that all trans men are heavily invested in 'traditional masculinity'. (I think the opposite is often true; by the time we transition, we've often thought long and hard about our personal views of manhood and who we need to be)
- the idea that we're all concerned about having a dick. some are, some aren't.
- That you have to need/want HRT or surgery to be trans.
- You have to be feminine and girly to be MTF, or masculine to be FTM.
- Realised you were trans at a very young age.
- All trans people have depression or are suicidal. I know this is true for a lot of people, but it's not everyone.
- Dysphoria is simply hating your body.
~ the idea that being MTF means getting your boobs, ass, and face done, and that SRS is the one and only point of transition.
~ the idea that Transwomen are all hookers or sex toys, or that we transition as a fetish. ( not as popular a myth anymore, but still one that i've run into )
~ The implication that transpeople aren't "real" men or women (I hate this one particularly, especially when a friend or acquaintance tells me "oh no, i'm only into real girls")
~ The idea that (and the treatment of) being a transgirl just makes me a "guy in girl clothes" (Some guy that new me back in the old days literally tried to "rough house" me like i was another guy.. almost ruined my hair and makeup that i spent 2 hours getting ready... I was about to decimate him)
and my personal favorite (sarcasm)
Something I have heard over and over and over and is getting on my nerves to no end is this:
"but, if you're a girl now, shouldn't you like guys?"
UGH. Really? Because Lesbians are just creatures of Medieval Lore apparently -_-
Quote from: LittleEmily24 on June 13, 2014, 11:04:50 AM
The idea that (and the treatment of) being a transgirl just makes me a "guy in girl clothes" (Some guy that new me back in the old days literally tried to "rough house" me like i was another guy.. almost ruined my hair and makeup that i spent 2 hours getting ready... I was about to decimate him)
and my personal favorite (sarcasm)
Something I have heard over and over and over and is getting on my nerves to no end is this:
"but, if you're a girl now, shouldn't you like guys?"
I had problems like this from one friend of my dad. He walked up to me one time and slapped me on the chest. Needless to say, it hurt like hell. I looked at him (after taking a few minutes to deal with the pain) and said: "If you ever slap me like that again, I am going to slug you." He never did that again.
He also thought that "since you're a girl now, ::) I thought that you liked guys."
I looked at him, rolled my eyes and called him an idiot.
I don't believe in pulling any punches with people.
This is the most intense thread ever. I just read back over all of it, and oh my gosh. :icon_chainsaw:
I have a problem with a myth that is more from outsiders than anyone in the community - that there is a "the surgery" when it comes to transition from any direction. It's more complicated than that, and it's a gradual process, not a thing where we go to sleep as a woman (or man) and wake up as a man (or woman). So many people, even polite, educated, kind people seem to hold this belief.
From within the community, I am frequently assumed to be cis and straight because I have a child. This gives me no end of hell. It would be easier to deal with the fact that my minority status is invisible in the wider world if it weren't also written off in lgbt spaces. I'm often not seen as a "real" whatever (man, gay, trans, queer) because I don't live up to assumptions. I've been bullied and made fun of for breeding. I used to accept this as minor and inevitable, but I shouldn't have to take an entrance exam everywhere I go. The myth that only heterosexual cispeople have children is damaging to parents and kids and makes it harder for outsiders to understand that we are not aliens.
I really think the "second puberty" thing gets taken too far, and almost literally by some people.
I read something the other day that insisted that any MTF that doesn't go through that mental "OMG *giggles*" teenager phase with crazy sexy clothes, tons of makeup and jewelry, and the concocomitant behavior isn't really trans, because apparently a hormonal change in a brain with matured judgement and reason centers is exactly no different from the same thing in an immature, still developing teenager brain. I know there's girls that have had that reaction and I'm not bashing them, but I also don't think it's fair to apply it to everyone.
I'm also tired of the rigid cookie cutter stereotypes from some people. I've seen checklists containing minute and very specific behaviors( often stereotypical and misogynistic about women in general) and people insisting that if you don't exhibit every one of those traits and act like a super girly airhead you're not trans.
Quote from: ErinS on June 14, 2014, 10:32:00 AM
I really think the "second puberty" thing gets taken too far, and almost literally by some people.
I read something the other day that insisted that any MTF that doesn't go through that mental "OMG *giggles*" teenager phase with crazy sexy clothes, tons of makeup and jewelry, and the concocomitant behavior isn't really trans, because apparently a hormonal change in a brain with matured judgement and reason centers is exactly no different from the same thing in an immature, still developing teenager brain. I know there's girls that have had that reaction and I'm not bashing them, but I also don't think it's fair to apply it to everyone.
I'm also tired of the rigid cookie cutter stereotypes from some people. I've seen checklists containing minute and very specific behaviors( often stereotypical and misogynistic about women in general) and people insisting that if you don't exhibit every one of those traits and act like a super girly airhead you're not trans.
The idea that transmen/women have to fulfill gender stereotypes 100% irritates me. It is ridiculous because there are cis people who have similar interests, traits, and mannerisms as trans people. These cis people aren't told your not a man/woman enough.
As for the second puberty it happens because people have to re-adjust. However, I do think people take it too far on both sides in some cases. Hell there are sometimes looking back where I was a hormonal mess and acted in a poor manner in both puberties (T changed my temper for better or worse). Obviously moments like these may happen, but if one is transitioning after the puberty age range one needs to take responsibility for their actions.
Quote from: David27 on June 15, 2014, 08:07:37 AM
The idea that transmen/women have to fulfill gender stereotypes 100% irritates me. It is ridiculous because there are cis people who have similar interests, traits, and mannerisms as trans people. These cis people aren't told your not a man/woman enough.
As for the second puberty it happens because people have to re-adjust. However, I do think people take it too far on both sides in some cases. Hell there are sometimes looking back where I was a hormonal mess and acted in a poor manner in both puberties (T changed my temper for better or worse). Obviously moments like these may happen, but if one is transitioning after the puberty age range one needs to take responsibility for their actions.
I've seen ciswomen grab a rifle, stack on a door with SWAT, and carry their weight and then some, and a serious response of "GoBack2kitchen"(beyond the normal joking that takes place in such settings) would receive a solid backlash. However a MTF that wants to do the same gets "ERMAGERD! You're not really a woman!" And people nod, forgetting that women do in fact do that every day.
You're right about the period of readjustment. However the people that state "if you don't behave like a teenage girl in every single way, you're not trans." Make me shake my head.
Not all teenage girls act like stereotypical teenage girls in every single way.
Oh, there are so, so many:
* The idea that most (or even all) trans women are motivated by fetishism of some kind, either being obsessed with getting guys to have sex with us or fetishising the idea of having a female body for sexual gratification.
* The belief that you're only really trans if you perform femininity (for trans women) or masculinity (for trans men).
* The belief that if you do perform femininity as a trans woman, you're making a mockery of all women.
* The 'trans woman as sexual predator' trope - this one is especially horrible because a trans woman is far more likely to be a victim of predatory behaviour than to engage in it herself.
* The idea that trans people 'shoehorned' their way into the LGBT community. This is entirely false - trans people have always been at the forefront of radical action against compulsory heterosexuality, but were forcibly excluded by (cis) gay men who wanted to avoid making themselves 'look bad'. Only in the past couple of decades have steps been taken to rectify that.
* Similarly, the idea that trans people only started existing in the last 70-80 years.