Just how pervasive is 'male socialization'? For some women, can it really be all chalked up to their 'male socialization' or do they simply think and act like men?
You tell me.
I didn't socialize that much with males to begin with, and that was exactly the reason why I got in trouble so much with my parents and peers. They always expected me to make friends with other males, like sports, be loud, walk, , move, and act like the "man" they thought I was. Well, that never happened entirely.
Yes, I had to put on an act at school and such but it was a forced behavior. Honestly it wasn't a big deal to undo the so called socialization *I* had during the 20 years I lived as "he". It never came naturally so it was rather easy to get rid of it and throw it in the garbage where it belonged! :P
tink :icon_chick:
I'd say some is inherent (in people who act "male") and some is socialization. I know my ex used to complain constantly that being married to me was like being married to a man (pre-transition), but I also still had a lot of social skills to learn when I transitioned, particularly interacting with straight men, which I hadn't done much of before transition.
Dennis
Quote from: Tink on December 12, 2007, 02:30:22 PM
I didn't socialize that much with males to begin with, and that was exactly the reason why I got in trouble so much with my parents and peers. They always expected me to make friends with other males, like sports, be loud, walk, , move, and act like the "man" they thought I was. Well, that never happened entirely.
Yes, I had to put on an act at school and such but it was a forced behavior. Honestly it wasn't a big deal to undo the so called socialization *I* had during the 20 years I lived as "he". It never came naturally so it was rather easy to get rid of it and throw it in the garbage where it belonged! :P
tink :icon_chick:
Exactly, Tink. I think some use their birth sex 'socialization' as an excuse for why they are just like their target gender.
If one is truly male, they think and behave like a man - react like a man (reactions to things are the most telling).
Likewise for women. If she is truly female, she will react like a woman and NOT A MAN.
Posted on: December 12, 2007, 03:36:32 PM
Quote from: Dennis on December 12, 2007, 02:35:34 PM
I'd say some is inherent (in people who act "male") and some is socialization. I know my ex used to complain constantly that being married to me was like being married to a man (pre-transition), but I also still had a lot of social skills to learn when I transitioned, particularly interacting with straight men, which I hadn't done much of before transition.
Dennis
Exactly, Den. Of course there are socialized behaviours to be shed. But a man reacts to things like a man and a woman like a woman.
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 12, 2007, 02:58:30 PM
nero, are you saying that men and women have "instinctual" reactions to situations that have nothing to do with training and socialization?
I don't think there are too many instinctual behaviors like that. Most of what we do comes from observational learning, watching the males and females around us. Where I do think instinct plays a part is in how we decide whether we choose males or females as the ones we learn from. Whatever our gender identity tells us we are, is the gender of the people we will learn from.
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 12, 2007, 02:58:30 PM
nero, are you saying that men and women have "instinctual" reactions to situations that have nothing to do with training and socialization?
what would be an example of that?
Yes, they do. It's not noticeable unless with you're with someone purporting to be male and has a clearly female reaction or vice versa.
Ex: You're a transman and you and another transguy go out for a night on the town. Suddenly he starts wigging out on you in a way you've never witnessed another guy do in your life. You're relating to him as you would any bio guy friend and he's actually taking offense to that.
He is offended by what men talk about.
So either he's a very rare bird or he has female instincts and sensibilities.
Posted on: December 12, 2007, 04:10:56 PM
It's also something that you really can't put your finger on, but you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt the person's male/female or else the sole survivor of an extinct species.
And there's a big difference between reacting like a feminine man and reacting FEMALE.
And between reacting like a butch woman and reacting MALE.
I know what Nero's talking about, it's this hypersensitivity that seems to be present among some, usually young, transman, usually early in transition. You'll be chatting away, bantering, just doing that kinda shallow talk that guys do and this guy will take offence. Now normally if that sort of thing happens a guy will just go "dude, TMI" or "that was over the line man" and that's all. The conversation moves on and carries on.
The sort of guy Nero's talking about seems to want to process it endlessly, dissect it, go on about it. It's debatable whether that's a male or female trait, but I can't think of a single bio guy who'd do that, and I know a lot of women who do.
Dennis
Well Ashley,
There are many women who act on defensive survival instincts. Especially those who've been victims of attack. That's really not a gendered trait. Most women fight hard in these situations, but are overpowered. I see the added strength and the powerful build many transgirls were blessed with as an asset to a woman. Contrary to popular belief, most women do what's in their power to defend themselves and their kin, instead of giving up and waiting for a 'white knight'.
This goes back to cognitive theory, discussed before.
My take is estrogen changes the map by which
we learn from the environment.
Of course, if you refuse to accept the imput,
because you don't want to socialize as male,
then full male or female socialisation won't take
no matter what the map is.
Quote from: Keira on December 12, 2007, 08:34:39 PM
This goes back to cognitive theory, discussed before.
My take is estrogen changes the map by which
we learn from the environment.
Of course, if you refuse to accept the imput,
because you don't want to socialize as male,
then full male or female socialisation won't take
no matter what the map is.
Hello, Kiera,
Estrogen makes the difference.
Having lived in the male mode for 51 years I feel safe in saying that.
The day I started my HRT my T reading was 720 or so. I have been on E since 2002 and is is way low, like less than 10. I take it to be ng/dl.
When I lived as a male with the woman within me, I could not understand why they were so gross and disrespectful of women. We were the butt of many cruel jokes and attitudes yet they wanted us. Things like "Women: Can't live with 'em and can't live without 'em" were taken as truths. Some guys left their wives and kids on Friday night and stayed away until Sunday afternoon and that was accepted. Violence toward women was often explained away by our own stupidity, but I never understood how a real "man" could ever inflict pain, mental, physical, or emotional, on a woman. Too much empathy? Maybe. Too easy to see the woman's side? You bet. Kept it hidden? For my own safety I did.
Male behaviour is, IMHO, an inherited thing that is enforced by a social construct. I no longer see or feel any of it because of the gift that Grandmother Estrogen has given me. I'll give up my estrogen when they pry it out of my cold, dead fingers.
Wing Walker
Its a good topic. I'll go for socialization. Yes, there are certain synaptic differences in females and males, certain brain areas that are wired somewhat differently. There is a tendency to startle more easily for females than for males. You can see that with does and bucks as well.
But my thoughts for the day on that are here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,23097.msg174563.html#msg174563
Quote from: Nero on December 12, 2007, 01:54:44 PM
Just how pervasive is 'male socialization'? For some women, can it really be all chalked up to their 'male socialization' or do they simply think and act like men?
You tell me.
Like Tink, I didn't have much social conditioning as a child and teenager. If there were any I would fight and react against them. By the time I was 13 doing my own thing and wearing my hair very long and wearing quite feminine clothes..
It wasn't until I was 21 that I almost conformed and had a haircut. But this only lasted about a year and then I grew the long hair back again, started wearing ladies jeans and tops once again and was back to my true self once more..
Im going to rock the boat here and throw in an alternative view. some may consider this rude, nasty, unkind, or plain false, but this is an opinion...
There are some trans men and women, who really really wish they were thier 'target' sex... More than anything, its like thier ultimate desire... try as they might, they arnt it... they think, act, feel, and behave like thier born gender... there is only so much we can be taught or socialised into acting a certain way. It is one view, that some transpeople ARNT mentally thier target sex... and that nomatter how much they claim to be, or use threads on trans forums on how to circumnavigate a therapist, or outsmart them. are still NOT thier proclaimed sex. thier reactions, naturally, and inately, are birth gender... there is just nothing that says that they are thier target gender...
what is male socialisation? there are varying degrees yes?
imagine being raised where you were punished for any expression of femininity... and in all male education from the age of 2-18... you'd think the person would be so male socialised they would find transition hard...
well somehow its effected me very little, other than the lonelyness and pain.... i came to university, the first co-ed environment ive been in, and ive instantly socialised as female. I picked up the behavioural traits, speach patterns, and finally dont apear odd... because i think like a normal girl.... If i managed to do that after such a male upbringing, surely those who claim socialisation is the issue in thier transition have had as male upbringings, or worse.... no, i dont think so.
I know im being very blunt here. but This board, and others, and the transcommunity in general has an ethos of NON challenge of someones decided gender... Im never going to say to someone, your not a man/woman... but lets be honest, point blank beliveing anyone who says thier a man/woman when they behave, think, react, and look like the oposite is near impossible. and there is an element of dilusion and fantisy in some cases... Some attitudes expressed here in writing, are very easy to see someones thought patterns. and a fair few 'm2fs' debate, think, and talk in very male ways... same with some f2ms in some very female ways... im not talking about steriotypes here, or masculine and feminine, im talking about MAN and WOMAN things...
I might be smited for this post, but i think its something that needs to be said. My personal view is one of judging a book by its content... not its cover... [/boat rocking]
R :police:
Good post Rachael......I wonder how people will react to it?
By your argument, of socialisation, surely the childhood formative years would have greater influence than when one is autonamous and thinking for themselves?
R :police:
Quote from: Nero on December 12, 2007, 01:54:44 PM
Just how pervasive is 'male socialization'? For some women, can it really be all chalked up to their 'male socialization' or do they simply think and act like men?
I don't know. It's a question I pondered a lot when I was trying to find justification for transitioning, but I've since lost interest. It's just SO tempting to split people into REAL and FAKE so we can feel good about ourselves... by standing on top of everyone else. It's a great way for anyone who's unsure of themselves, or who's afraid to take responsibility for their actions to rationalize why transitioning was OK for them to do.
So even thought it might be true for all I know, I personally try to avoid thinking that way. Whether I'm a real woman or a wannabe, I STILL did it, I still transitioned, and it's entirely my doing and responsibility.
~Kate~
I just keep thinking that as a kid, I played Cops & Robbers, climbed trees, rode motorcycles, raced cars, built tree forts, studied military history... all sorts of "male-ish" things. And not because I was socialized or forced into it, but because I *enjoyed* it. There were no Barbies, no EasyBakes and no trying on panties. In fact, I also thought (when younger) that girls were usually incredibly shallow and petty. Here I am, studying Rommel's North Afrika campaign, and the girls just want to play with glitter paint.
And yet, I spent every second of every day thinking, "If only...", and studied and envied everything about them, even their shallowness, lol.
So maybe that makes me a wannabe then?
I guess the only time socialization clashed with me was when sexuality became involved. I couldn't STAND it when men objectified women and made fun of them. I couldn't understand why they were so stupid and mean about it. It seemed the tables turned as a teenager, and boys became the stupid, shallow ones... and girls came into their own. The catch was, I *desperately* wanted acceptance from the girls, but I did NOT want sex. I wanted *affection*, and intimate (not sexual) relationships... a sharing of our souls and feelings and hopes and dreams, but... I was a male. It wasn't happening. Girls thought I was a boy, and boys thought I was just plain weird. And the one boy who did share... well we ended up in a very odd, volatile, platonic yet romantic relationship that couldn't go anywhere.
Then trying to be a husband, terrified of being forced to be a father, trying to be a hetero male for my wife... I honestly thought at the time I could do it, conform, learn to adapt. But after 17 years, I had to admit defeat, and transition. And it seems to be working wonderfully well for me.
So maybe I'm a real woman then?
See, I dunno, it's only fair for me to test myself in the theory, and I just don't seem to fit very well. I have traits which make me a wannabe, and signs it's "natural" for me too. Maybe it's just the gemini adaptability in me ;)
~Kate~
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 13, 2007, 09:23:28 AM
Quote from: Rachael on December 13, 2007, 08:53:06 AM
By your argument, of socialisation, surely the childhood formative years would have greater influence than when one is autonamous and thinking for themselves?
R :police:
no. my argument is that everyone's journey is different.
What does the journey have to do with the reason for it...
imo, the journeys fairly similar... its just some folks have deadends. learning, and acting can only do so much, and SOME people, are wired to inately behave a certain way... no amout of practice will change that.
R :police:
Quote from: Kate on December 13, 2007, 09:14:55 AM
Quote from: Nero on December 12, 2007, 01:54:44 PM
Just how pervasive is 'male socialization'? For some women, can it really be all chalked up to their 'male socialization' or do they simply think and act like men?
I don't know. It's a question I pondered a lot when I was trying to find justification for transitioning, but I've since lost interest. It's just SO tempting to split people into REAL and FAKE so we can feel good about ourselves... by standing on top of everyone else. It's a great way for anyone who's unsure of themselves, or who's afraid to take responsibility for their actions to rationalize why transitioning was OK for them to do.
So even thought it might be true for all I know, I personally try to avoid thinking that way. Whether I'm a real woman or a wannabe, I STILL did it, I still transitioned, and it's entirely my doing and responsibility.
~Kate~
Why is there an uber-girly wood sprite arguing with me about this? ::)
And why does having strong but unpopular opinions always have to be about elitism or low self esteem?
Couldn't it be that some are genuinely annoyed that its the 'male acting women' and 'female acting men' that set the stereotypes for the way we are seen?
This is not about elitism or superiority complexes.We're already seen as wannabe men and wannabe women. And when we've got people out there proving the stereotype, it's infuriating.
I'm sick of the militant man-hating 'men' out there setting all these stereotypes for
I am automatically perceived because they whine the loudest.
I'm sick of hearing girls say 'Oh, you're ftm? Cool! I love ftms because they're so much softer, sweeter, and gentler than genetic men.' >:(
Ashley, hon.
You seem to be taking this all personally. From what I recall, nobody said YOU were fake or male acting or what have you.
But there are types like that out there.
its not my fault it took 3 suicide attempts to show me i couldnt playact any longer... its not MY FAULT my pain was so great...
R :police:
Quote from: Nero on December 13, 2007, 11:05:22 AM
Quote from: Kate on December 13, 2007, 09:14:55 AM
Quote from: Nero on December 12, 2007, 01:54:44 PM
Just how pervasive is 'male socialization'? For some women, can it really be all chalked up to their 'male socialization' or do they simply think and act like men?
I don't know. It's a question I pondered a lot when I was trying to find justification for transitioning, but I've since lost interest. It's just SO tempting to split people into REAL and FAKE so we can feel good about ourselves... by standing on top of everyone else. It's a great way for anyone who's unsure of themselves, or who's afraid to take responsibility for their actions to rationalize why transitioning was OK for them to do.
So even thought it might be true for all I know, I personally try to avoid thinking that way. Whether I'm a real woman or a wannabe, I STILL did it, I still transitioned, and it's entirely my doing and responsibility.
~Kate~
Why is there an uber-girly wood sprite arguing with me about this? ::)
And why does having strong but unpopular opinions always have to be about elitism or low self esteem?
Couldn't it be that some are genuinely annoyed that its the 'male acting women' and 'female acting men' that set the stereotypes for the way we are seen?
This is not about elitism or superiority complexes.
We're already seen as wannabe men and wannabe women. And when we've got people out there proving the stereotype, it's infuriating.
I'm sick of the militant man-hating 'men' out there setting all these stereotypes for I am automatically perceived because they whine the loudest.
I'm sick of hearing girls say 'Oh, you're ftm? Cool! I love ftms because they're so much softer, sweeter, and gentler than genetic men.' >:(
and with some women, I'm sick of the effort to keep reminding myself I'm arguing with a woman when it definitely has the feel of arguing with a man. (and before anyone takes offense, that refers to a recent incident having to do with nobody on this thread)
i wasnt having a go at you, but at theory... please understand i dont want to hurt a person...
R :police:
Quote from: Kate on December 13, 2007, 10:37:55 AM
I just keep thinking that as a kid, I played Cops & Robbers, climbed trees, rode motorcycles, raced cars, built tree forts, studied military history... all sorts of "male-ish" things. And not because I was socialized or forced into it, but because I *enjoyed* it. There were no Barbies, no EasyBakes and no trying on panties. In fact, I also thought (when younger) that girls were usually incredibly shallow and petty. Here I am, studying Rommel's North Afrika campaign, and the girls just want to play with glitter paint.
And yet, I spent every second of every day thinking, "If only...", and studied and envied everything about them, even their shallowness, lol.
So maybe that makes me a wannabe then?
I guess the only time socialization clashed with me was when sexuality became involved. I couldn't STAND it when men objectified women and made fun of them. I couldn't understand why they were so stupid and mean about it. It seemed the tables turned as a teenager, and boys became the stupid, shallow ones... and girls came into their own. The catch was, I *desperately* wanted acceptance from the girls, but I did NOT want sex. I wanted *affection*, and intimate (not sexual) relationships... a sharing of our souls and feelings and hopes and dreams, but... I was a male. It wasn't happening. Girls thought I was a boy, and boys thought I was just plain weird. And the one boy who did share... well we ended up in a very odd, volatile, platonic yet romantic relationship that couldn't go anywhere.
Then trying to be a husband, terrified of being forced to be a father, trying to be a hetero male for my wife... I honestly thought at the time I could do it, conform, learn to adapt. But after 17 years, I had to admit defeat, and transition. And it seems to be working wonderfully well for me.
So maybe I'm a real woman then?
See, I dunno, it's only fair for me to test myself in the theory, and I just don't seem to fit very well. I have traits which make me a wannabe, and signs it's "natural" for me too. Maybe it's just the gemini adaptability in me ;)
~Kate~
anne-girl, anne-girl, anne-girl... :eusa_naughty: 'traits that make you a wannabe?' oh sure, and the sky's not blue either. :icon_rolleyes:
It's not about actions - panties, barbies, and lipstick, but
reactions. Playing with barbies and trying on panties never made anyone a girl.
Hmm; it's a bit of a complex thing really. I have to think that socializing as male did affect me on some level but I am not sure how. I don't feel I have any problem socializing as female. As male I generally didn't socialize much; I was a loner. As female I am far more gregarious but would say I have a mix of guy and gal friends. Does that answer the question? I am not sure.
I can say that being/living female has enabled me to socialize in a way that feels more natural to me.
Quote from: Nero on December 13, 2007, 11:05:22 AM
Why is there an uber-girly wood sprite arguing with me about this? ::)
Maybe it's just what uber-girly wood sprites are wired to do? ;)
QuoteAnd why does having strong but unpopular opinions always have to be about elitism or low self esteem?
It doesn't. I'm just aware of the tendency in myself. I'd LOVE to believe there are real TSs and wannabe women, so I could be one of the real ones. It'd be... comforting... to think I'm a "real woman" and deserved to transition.
That doesn't mean the theory isn't true though. It may very well be perfectly valid. I'm just scared to embrace it, because if I DO, then I have to face facts that I may fall into the wannabe side of things. I'm looking back to childhood, at my "male socialization," and I didn't feel forced into it. At least not with THINGS and STUFF. What felt wrong was when it came to PEOPLE and RELATIONSHIPS.
QuoteCouldn't it be that some are genuinely annoyed that its the 'male acting women' and 'female acting men' that set the stereotypes for the way we are seen?
Sure! YOU know I get annoyed at certain "types" too. But I just don't know WHY they are the way they are.
Still, I'll admit, the whole "socialization" thing feels wrong to me. I did what I did because I LIKED it, not because I was forced into it. I didn't end up riding motorcycles because I was "socialized as a male." I did it because that was something available to me within the male world which I found fun to do. But I don't think I picked up a ton of "male socialization" mannerisms that were "wrong" for me. If I picked up anything, it was because it "stuck," it worked for me.
And yet when I tried to force things like being a husband and male lover, it just would NOT work. God knows I TRIED, and I mean tried every imaginable compromise, work-around, lets-pretend game... and it just does NOT work. My world, my wife, and even *I* TRIED to socialize myself into those roles, but... it's impossible. It took me WAY too long to realize and admit the futility of it all, but at least for myself, socialization doesn't seem work unless it "fits" me.
There are some things I need to drop. My wife keeps yelling
"DOOR!" to me when we're entering places, lol.
"What?" I ask.
"Stop holding the door open for me!" she yells, lol. Life is truly insane when you're wife is mad at you for holding open the door for her, lol...
I dunno Nero, I think I just confused myself even more, lol...
~Kate~
I stopped reading a bit ago and jumped to the response. To be honest.... *smile* Gotcha.
Invariably, 'to be honest' on a trans board almost always means 'I am going to say what I think about those people who are nothing like me. So I can be honest about them.' The subtext should be fairly clear, my 9-year old seems to get it when I talk with him that way.
I think most people know when their self-efficacy is missing. I've never found that they need me to highlight it for them. Besides, I have my own stuff to work through. Best I stay focused on that.
Now, we are every last one socialized -- even if we are raised by wolves. We have to be; because, unlike a baby crocodile, we cannot survive after a few weeks of living without a society. If you aren't socialized you are dead and thus, shouldn't be writing on this board at all, unless this board is a ouija board.
To "drop" one's socialization as though it were a negligee is not only impossible, it's dangerous as well. Because as I drop it, I am left with nothing to protect me at all. However, I can change my slant on socialization and become re-socialized. That is a process and one that requires better insight and willingness to work hard and long than I generally see displayed in these sorts of arguments.
The re-socialization piece is gonna be harder for some than for others and that seems like what this series of posts is trying to make for. Is it more difficult for some than for others? Yes, no question.
Does it tend to be more simple and a better match when someone is younger? I think so. Which is why I feel no particular need to box your ears, Rachael!! *smile* Just show a bit of patience with those who are trying and don't have your dexterity and grace when doing so.
We spend so much time making comparison of one to another and all compared to me!! Why?!! How would I go about comparing myself to Nero? I might die for his breasts (from his description.) *grin* But, what do I know about living his life that I can compare it to my own? And why would I anyway?
Transition is about me feeling right about ME. Not me feeling right about Janewatchamacallit. It's my comfort or lack of comfort that's the important thing. Do people sometimes piss me off on these and other boards? Yes. Do people always have good, safe and sensible approaches to things? Not in my opinion. But, as long as they aren't directing me with the power to make it stick, what do I need worry about in regard to them? In fact, I often wonder what's bothering me really when I read some tripe and get bothered by it?
To call another MTF a 'man' is to insult her effort and belittle myself. To discuss the difficulty or facility one might have in resocializing herself and how she went about that... that is something different entirely. It seems like we should be able to discuss such things without fanning flames and having to put out fires.
Do I have opinions? Yes. Do some of those revolve around people I know or read? Yes. But, I spoz my question is this. What difference is my stating that opinion going to make in their life, or mine?
Does male socialization exist? Yes. Can it be re-learned in a different voice? Yes. Is that more difficult for younger or older transitioners? For older ones. Like Ashley said, they used and lived in that socialization a lot longer than someone who, thankfully, like Rachael or Tink dropped the facade early on and went toward her true voice.
But the wait doesn't mean that an older transitioner cannot sing or is less a woman than a younger transitioner. It may well mean that when they do sing, their sopranos sound different than the other. They can still sing in harmony though.
Quote from: Kate on December 13, 2007, 01:08:58 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 13, 2007, 11:05:22 AM
Why is there an uber-girly wood sprite arguing with me about this? ::)
Maybe it's just what uber-girly wood sprites are wired to do? ;)
QuoteAnd why does having strong but unpopular opinions always have to be about elitism or low self esteem?
It doesn't. I'm just aware of the tendency in myself. I'd LOVE to believe there are real TSs and wannabe women, so I could be one of the real ones. It'd be... comforting... to think I'm a "real woman" and deserved to transition.
That doesn't mean the theory isn't true though. It may very well be perfectly valid. I'm just scared to embrace it, because if I DO, then I have to face facts that I may fall into the wannabe side of things. I'm looking back to childhood, at my "male socialization," and I didn't feel forced into it. At least not with THINGS and STUFF. What felt wrong was when it came to PEOPLE and RELATIONSHIPS.
QuoteCouldn't it be that some are genuinely annoyed that its the 'male acting women' and 'female acting men' that set the stereotypes for the way we are seen?
Sure! YOU know I get annoyed at certain "types" too. But I just don't know WHY they are the way they are.
Still, I'll admit, the whole "socialization" thing feels wrong to me. I did what I did because I LIKED it, not because I was forced into it. I didn't end up riding motorcycles because I was "socialized as a male." I did it because that was something available to me within the male world which I found fun to do. But I don't think I picked up a ton of "male socialization" mannerisms that were "wrong" for me. If I picked up anything, it was because it "stuck," it worked for me.
And yet when I tried to force things like being a husband and male lover, it just would NOT work. God knows I TRIED, and I mean tried every imaginable compromise, work-around, lets-pretend game... and it just does NOT work. My world, my wife, and even *I* TRIED to socialize myself into those roles, but... it's impossible. It took me WAY too long to realize and admit the futility of it all, but at least for myself, socialization doesn't seem work unless it "fits" me.
There are some things I need to drop. My wife keeps yelling "DOOR!" to me when we're entering places, lol. "What?" I ask. "Stop holding the door open for me!" she yells, lol. Life is truly insane when you're wife is mad at you for holding open the door for her, lol...
I dunno Nero, I think I just confused myself even more, lol...
~Kate~
I'm not talking hobbies and such. I think we're sometimes drawn to certain things as children because we're permitted to be. How many little boys do you think would play house and easybake ovens if it weren't frowned upon?
I was fortunate. My folks didn't see hobbies and toys as gendered. I was given both 'girl' things and 'boy' things. But most of those raised as 'male' and some raised as 'female' aren't so lucky.
we seem to focus here so much, on learned things... traits taught, men dont naturally hold doors for women, its a social thing....
there is however, a line where socialisation, blends into who the person is... attitudes, reactions to some things... I once (Only time btw) went to coffee with a m2f friend from the irc... i dont know if they ever come in anymore, but hey... this person KEPT saying how good i looked and that 'oh if i were still a man id want to sh*g you so much... makeing sexual comments, flirting, and at one point, rubbed her chin, and then rumaged in her purse for an electric razor, and proceeded to shave IN the coffee shop... i promptly stood and left without another word...
thats not socialisation.... thats male thought processes...
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 13, 2007, 02:58:35 PM
we seem to focus here so much, on learned things... traits taught, men dont naturally hold doors for women, its a social thing....
there is however, a line where socialisation, blends into who the person is... attitudes, reactions to some things... I once (Only time btw) went to coffee with a m2f friend from the irc... i dont know if they ever come in anymore, but hey... this person KEPT saying how good i looked and that 'oh if i were still a man id want to sh*g you so much... makeing sexual comments, flirting, and at one point, rubbed her chin, and then rumaged in her purse for an electric razor, and proceeded to shave IN the coffee shop... i promptly stood and left without another word...
thats not socialisation.... thats male thought processes...
R :police:
That's just boorish stupidity. Did the person fart loudly as well and spit?
I don't know that its male at all, although i cannot think of a woman I have ever been around who did thsoe sorts of things. But, neither have I been around men who do those sorts of things.
But, I don't think that is 'natural' behavior any more than a bubble-bath is a 'natural-state' bath. It's learned and probably had more to do with someone's notion of 'breaking down stereotypes' while being stereotypically rude, stoopid and disgusting.
For those that buy into the 'socialization is everything' theories -
If it doesn't come natural, then how can one be the gender they claim to be?
I mean, there's GOT to be something more going on than 'I know I'm male/female inside'.
I understand the LEARNED stuff, such as Kate said with opening doors and such. But that is merely learned behaviours that differ between cultures.
How can the other stuff like reactions and such not come naturally?
Quote from: Nero on December 13, 2007, 04:59:42 PM
For those that buy into the 'socialization is everything' theories -
How can the other stuff like reactions and such not come naturally?
Which reactions are you asking about, Nero? Startle-reactions do have a lot to do with estrogen/testosterone, apparently. Deer, etc show that: bucks are harder to get to run than are does, especially does with fawns. Some processing differences are hard-wired and the proclivity for certain things is associated with gender differentiation.
Relationality seems to be programmed into all herd-animals, like humans and gorillas and chimpanzees, and cows and horses.
What other reactions do you have in mind?
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 13, 2007, 05:17:43 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 13, 2007, 04:59:42 PM
For those that buy into the 'socialization is everything' theories -
How can the other stuff like reactions and such not come naturally?
Which reactions are you asking about, Nero? Startle-reactions do have a lot to do with estrogen/testosterone, apparently. Deer, etc show that: bucks are harder to get to run than are does, especially does with fawns. Some processing differences are hard-wired and the proclivity for certain things is associated with gender differentiation.
Relationality seems to be programmed into all herd-animals, like humans and gorillas and chimpanzees, and cows and horses.
What other reactions do you have in mind?
for example:
a transguy who responds in typically female ways to things. not necessarily 'survival instincts' like you mentioned. but a guy who despite having perfected his walk, talk, dress, etc is unable to relate to other men as a man. it's not easy to explain. it can't be summed up by 'guys do this, girls do that. kind of thing. it's just when you know their thought processes don't match.
another example:
a transwoman who responds with cold hard facts to an emotional, sensitive discussion. most men aren't even that cold. it's an extremely macho reaction.
Quote from: Nero on December 13, 2007, 06:00:30 PM
for example:
a transguy who responds in typically female ways to things. not necessarily 'survival instincts' like you mentioned. but a guy who despite having perfected his walk, talk, dress, etc is unable to relate to other men as a man. it's not easy to explain. it can't be summed up by 'guys do this, girls do that. kind of thing. it's just when you know their thought processes don't match.
another example:
a transwoman who responds with cold hard facts to an emotional, sensitive discussion. most men aren't even that cold. it's an extremely macho reaction.
For those two I would have to go with socialization. I know, you hate it.
I think, but don't know, that trans-men are sometimes caught in the sme double-bind with "being a guy" that trans-women were caught in prior to transition. I cannot recall a time when I truly enjoyed male companionship in a group, for instance. A sorta 'herd' instinct seemed to take over that lead conversations and reactions in ways that I found totally off-putting. Quit being in places and situations like that by the time I was a year into college. The "EWWW" response.
As far as not relating "to other men as a man" I can't help much with that, not particularly ever having been big on that myself. Although relating to men as human beings hasn't come very hard at all. They hurt, and their wounds often go untended by themselves and others in deference to being able "to be strong." That, imo, is a socialized response. Not from a particular society, I think, as much as from an "entire humanity" perspective. Maybe started when we were all running around looking like "Lucy" --- the australopithecine homonid from the Afar region of Ethiopia -- of 4Mln. years ago.
Hmmm, the second, am I responding with "cold hard facts to an emotional, sensitive discussion?" *smile* That also, in my mind, is a carry-over from the way that person has been raised. Something along the lines of "men don't express emotion, they express rationality." LOL
That just seems to me as though someone is cut off from her own feelings -- that tends to be a cultural/social set of behaviors that is acutely ingrained in guys.
I suppose what I am arguing here is that some traits are biological, but very few, mostly secondary sex characteristics: breasts, vaginas/penises, fatty deposit locations, E/T, bone-structure (generally) and relative size (generally.)
Things like relationality (believe me, I once thought men lacked that essentially) seem to me now to be deeply ingrained socialization qualities that could be available to all humans if they were allowed to indulge in them.
Essentially speaking (metaphysically?), I tend to lean more and more toward the idea that there are no 'essential' differences, just the superficial chemical/biological ones I mentioned above and the social ones I mentioned also above.
(In the E/T differences, women may be a bit more disposed toward relationality by dint of estrogen: such qualities as nurturing and gathering for safety seem to have some relation to estrogen, depending on the 'danger' that threatens. Just as T seems to tilt the individual balance more toward 'action.' Men tend to be more aggressive in response to a threat not directed necessarily toward young humans.)
Fact is, these are things that seem more than a bit tricky to winnow down to whole grain, Nero. We have ideas, and in some ways can back-up those with 'scientific evidence' and moreso through individual experience. My own feeling is that we (women) are less cold. The whys for that I want to believe are mostly conditioned, but the tilt toward them may be biological/chemical and in that respect 'essential.'
But, how in the world to show that?
I really hope this an intellectual discussion!!! I keep reading your questions and answers in that light. If it is a 'sensitive, emotional discussion' except in regard to someone maybe feeling he or she is being dissed, then I am going to have to rethink and re-experience this whole thing!!! Goddess, and I thought I was making some sense out of it!!! hahahahaha At least for myself.
I appreciate all that and all, but how are we trans if it's all socialization? or estrogen? if everything's socialization, than how can we be men/women inside?
if it's socialization, then that begs the question - is it just that we want to be our target sex?
because if we're not already hardwired to be a certain way, then what is it that makes us trans? just 'wanting' to be the target gender?
Posted on: December 13, 2007, 08:02:04 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 13, 2007, 07:02:04 PM
I appreciate all that and all, but how are we trans if it's all socialization? or estrogen? if everything's socialization, than how can we be men/women inside?
if it's socialization, then that begs the question - is it just that we want to be our target sex?
because if we're not already hardwired to be a certain way, then what is it that makes us trans? just 'wanting' to be the target gender?
ps. the 'cold hard facts thing' refers to a particular incident. a very cold incident. no one in this thread.
Quote from: Nero on December 13, 2007, 07:03:37 PM
I appreciate all that and all, but how are we trans if it's all socialization? or estrogen? if everything's socialization, than how can we be men/women inside?
if it's socialization, then that begs the question - is it just that we want to be our target sex?
because if we're not already hardwired to be a certain way, then what is it that makes us trans? just 'wanting' to be the target gender?
Posted on: December 13, 2007, 08:02:04 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 13, 2007, 07:02:04 PM
I appreciate all that and all, but how are we trans if it's all socialization? or estrogen? if everything's socialization, than how can we be men/women inside?
if it's socialization, then that begs the question - is it just that we want to be our target sex?
because if we're not already hardwired to be a certain way, then what is it that makes us trans? just 'wanting' to be the target gender?
ps. the 'cold hard facts thing' refers to a particular incident. a very cold incident. no one in this thread.
Okay, now I get it. Prolly shouldn't have skipped over some of the posts back there.
Like I said, there ARE some biological differences. Brain structures appear to be some of those differences. (see medical/psychological research at the Amsterdam Free University) There are some quantifiable differences found in the hippocampus that indicate that tran-men and trans-women have brain structure that fall within normal ranges for the sex for which we don't have the natural bodies. I would be willing to suspect that there are other brain differences in other places.
I think the struggle within us is often a matter of a particular brain-wiring that gets the wrong hormonal treatments post-conception and post-uetero. That would be you have a male brain and a female anatomy and I the opposite, prior to transition.
So, no, I do not, very definitely, think we are just 'wanting' to be our target gender.
I do think a lot of our behaviors are socialized though. And I think that some of those behaviors are predisposed away from what the socialization is by our hard-wiring. But, I also think so many of us try so hard to be what everyone claims we are, that we often make a strong connection with our conditioning. That is tough to re-condition.
Whew. Ya know how to tire a girl out, mistuh!! *smile*
Quote from: Nero on December 13, 2007, 11:05:22 AM
I'm sick of hearing girls say 'Oh, you're ftm? Cool! I love ftms because they're so much softer, sweeter, and gentler than genetic men.'
Huh? From my perspective as a woman, I see it quite differently. I love trans guys because so many of them I've known exemplify the masculine traits I value highly in good men-- a sense of honor, reliable steadfastness and stoic strength, chivalry toward the ladies, solidity of character. Trans guys have seen both sides of gender and out of this wider perspective have developed a great wisdom about where they stand. I feel that by consciously remolding their lives to live up to the ideals of being masculine, they show a great respect for masculinity, and really do it justice instead of lazily taking it for granted the way too many bio-males do. I wish more men were as conscientious about their manhood as trans men are.
Quote from: Hypatia on December 15, 2007, 12:41:30 AM
Quote from: Nero on December 13, 2007, 11:05:22 AM
I'm sick of hearing girls say 'Oh, you're ftm? Cool! I love ftms because they're so much softer, sweeter, and gentler than genetic men.'
Huh? From my perspective as a woman, I see it quite differently. I love trans guys because so many of them I've known exemplify the masculine traits I value highly in good men-- a sense of honor, reliable steadfastness and stoic strength, chivalry toward the ladies, solidity of character. Trans guys have seen both sides of gender and out of this wider perspective have developed a great wisdom about where they stand. I feel that by consciously remolding their lives to live up to the ideals of being masculine, they show a great respect for masculinity, and really do it justice instead of lazily taking it for granted the way too many bio-males do. I wish more men were as conscientious about their manhood as trans men are.
I wish more ladies saw us as you do. :)
I also believe that a hallmark of the best masculinity is a man's respect and solicitude for women, and yes, gentleness. Perhaps this is what those girls were perceiving but misinterpreting as "softness."
Frankly, Nero, having grown up tortured by the male expectations imposed on me that felt so alien to who I was, and having been bullied and abused by males, I came to feel a deep loathing for maleness. I'm grateful to trans men for showing me the good side of being male and helping me learn not to hate men.
Quote from: Nero on December 15, 2007, 12:47:03 AM
I wish more ladies saw us as you do. :)
Well, I've seen gender from both sides now too, brother. ;)
its all estrogen? socialisation? i heavily disagreee... that removes all gender hardwireing you want to claim to not feel like you chose to change physical sex...
I think socialisation has very little to do with this, and its simply an excuse tbh... there are enough cases of teen, and infant transitions showing it CANT be socialisation, what have they had? yet they already behave one way?
there are enough transpeople who literally cant cope/function as thier raised sex to prove its simply not ALL learned or chemical...
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 15, 2007, 06:34:22 AM
there are enough transpeople who literally cant cope/function as thier raised sex to prove its simply not ALL learned or chemical...
R :police:
yep. that was me. i just had too many problems as a child. i COULDN'T assimilate, blend in, or whatever you want to call it. and not for lack of trying.
i went to private school, so i wore a skirt. had pigtails. so i wasn't persecuted for looking gender varient or for trying to be a boy or anything like that. it was because i was that little girl with the blond ponytail who just clearly wasn't a real girl. a little girl with male instincts.
and i lost a lot for that. too much.
when i talk about socialization and hormones vs inherent behaviour, it is NOT to be elitist or hurt anyone. but when people chalk everything up to socialization and HRT, it belittles and dismisses what i and others went through.
my entire childhood was derailed because of this and that hurts. that HURTS.
Posted on: December 15, 2007, 08:12:51 AM
also, though everyone makes estrogen and testosterone jokes, you'd be hard pressed to find a cisgendered person (other than a few militant feminists who want to believe there's no difference between men and women) who actually believes that socialization and hormones are responsible for their personalities.
there have also been cases of little boys raised as girls having all the normal socialization, completely unaware of their true sex and it didn't work.
dr. money has already been disproven.
Quote from: Rachael on December 15, 2007, 06:34:22 AM
its all estrogen? socialisation? i heavily disagreee... that removes all gender hardwireing you want to claim to not feel like you chose to change physical sex...
I think socialisation has very little to do with this, and its simply an excuse tbh... there are enough cases of teen, and infant transitions showing it CANT be socialisation, what have they had? yet they already behave one way?
there are enough transpeople who literally cant cope/function as thier raised sex to prove its simply not ALL learned or chemical...
R :police:
I would like nothing more than to know that I am not a product of either my environment nor my biology. But, that would make me something no one else is. The factors of socialization and bio-chemical fact do not invalidate anything or anyone. They make each of us what we are. Part of humanity. But a part is not All. How we live out our lives given certain human limitations is a much larger part.
Where exactly do you know of 'infant' transitions? Please cite references because that would, indeed, change the entire perspective I have anyhow. Like you, perhaps, I felt early on that there was something very different about me. I was not a 'typical boy.' In seeing my sons live their lives I begin to have some inkling of how we are different. They have no doubts, no reservations, about 'who they are.' I am absolutely grateful for that, because I would not have them struggle the ways that I have had to do.
My oldest told me a few years ago that he felt that I was born this way "because you can deal with it, Mom. Others cannot." That is a comforting thought. One I do so wish a lot of others would get about themselves. I think that it would be a great pain-alleviator.
As for socialization of humans, it begins immediately we are born and continues throughout the lifespan. Socialization is born into us and our kind. Humans ARE social creatures. No one lives outside a family, clan tribe, or culture and those facts affect us each one. We are not somehow radically 'free.' Much as we might like to think so. We are all contingent on where we are to help make us who we are.
Since the 1930s and 1940s the uses of estrogenic and steroidal hormones for increasing vegetable and animal productivity have become endemic. It doesn't require a lot of contortions to think that a syndrome, possibly rather rare before, has become something we see on a more frequent order than it was seen in human history. Just over the past decade or so the entire 'organic' movement has begun to take off. People are beginning to recognize that the things we invent to make things better have often made things worse in some respects. The endemic use of hormones may well be one of those items.
Have there always been transsexuals? Well, I think yes. I do think that environmental factors whereby the increase in estrogens, particularly, has become endemic rather than particular to specific locales and times has increased the incidence of transsexualism. For instance, after three miscarriages prior to my birth, I am aware that my mother was given diethylstilbestrol (DES) to promote what was thought to be a way to prevent miscarriages. This procedure was very typical in miscarriage-prone women from the 1940s through the very early 1970s when its use was discontinued.
Although it has not been linked definitely to TS incidence, there is some evidence that tends to thinking that, for some of us, it may have been a causal factor. It has certainly been linked to cancers forming in babies, and in adults, whose mothers were given the compound.
Whatever causes/d us to be is really not the important thing here. That we are is the important item we need to focus on. If I require an absence of socialization/bio-chemical or other environmental factors in order to feel 'validated,' well, maybe that is something I need to delve into for myself.
The fact that "I am," period, is what seems salient to me. That is the fact that I have to live with.
There are people who "cant cope or function" in any number of areas, but they are not even nearly all TSes.
I don't require an 'excuse' for who I am. The entire discussion, in that light, seems moot to me. It's how I deal with who I am that is the important factoid that gets left out in these discussions. The hows and whys are just thought-experiments.
Quote'there are people who can't cope or function in any number of areas but they are not nearly all TSs.
and that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. i know you weren't talking about me hon, but that's the kind of thing that gets to me.
i suffered greatly over our condition in childhood and lost too much over that. i'm tired of people negating that or chalking it up to some 'character flaw' on my part.
Quote from: Nero on December 15, 2007, 07:55:26 AM
Quote'there are people who can't cope or function in any number of areas but they are not nearly all TSs.
and that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. i know you weren't talking about me hon, but that's the kind of thing that gets to me.
i suffered greatly over our condition in childhood and lost too much over that. i'm tired of people negating that or chalking it up to some 'character flaw' on my part.
My dearest, Nero. Your only 'character flaw' is the one I pmed you about!!! LOL and as you may be able to tell, I don't perceive that as a flaw, rather as something that endears you to me.
YOU ARE, Nero. That is the bottom line; and the truly important aspect of you that no one can diss or change or make light of, unless you believe them and forget WHO YOU ARE.
You are forever REAL and wondrous and absolutely valid and .... dammit, such a hard-headed and stubborn MALE!!!! LOL.
You struggle, as we all do, with knowing and feeling that some people want to find every possible way to invalidate you and WHO YOU ARE. Screw 'em. Your existence defies their feeble attempts to invalidate you.
But, I also know well from experience, that it's a constant struggle to get through, around, over, under, whatever, that.
I think we each just want to fit in and this syndrome of ours, regardless how it came about, is what it is and it makes it terribly hard for those who haven't lived with it to see beyond their illusions that the world is a nice, tidy, totally-explainable-in-terms-of-my-own-outlook-on-life-and-what-is-possible-and-what-is-not world-view that they forget that WE ARE.
Its tough to be a unicorn when no one believes that there are unicorns.
We all require human companionship and the validation that comes from having people love us just because we are ourselves. And yes, that is a hard thing to receive from only a bulletin board on internet.
You are one of my heroes, dear Nero. And, just as my son said of me, you are as you are "because you can deal with it.... Others cannot."
HUGS and love.
Posted on: December 15, 2007, 09:25:08 AM
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 15, 2007, 08:13:15 AM
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 15, 2007, 07:46:58 AM
I am aware that my mother was given diethylstilbestrol (DES) to promote what was thought to be a way to prevent miscarriages. This procedure was very typical in miscarriage-prone women from the 1940s through the very early 1970s when its use was discontinued.
hmmmm., my mom was given that too.
Posted on: December 15, 2007, 08:10:02 AM
Quote from: Nero on December 15, 2007, 07:55:26 AM
Quote'there are people who can't cope or function in any number of areas but they are not nearly all TSs.
and that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. i know you weren't talking about me hon, but that's the kind of thing that gets to me.
i suffered greatly over our condition in childhood and lost too much over that. i'm tired of people negating that or chalking it up to some 'character flaw' on my part.
i dont think thats what she meant. i took it as there are a lot of people who suffer from a lot of different things, not just ts, and it is not the inability to cope or function that makes us ts. its not discounting the pain and suffering we went through (and in many cases are still going through :-\ ) but she is saying that by itself it doesnt make us who we are.
if i'm wrong feel free to correct and/or just ignore me.
~ashley~
You are not wrong, Ashley. All kinds of folk struggle with validation and acceptance and tons of mental and physical anomalies and all without being TS.
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 15, 2007, 08:43:52 AM
Quote from: Nero on December 15, 2007, 07:55:26 AM
Quote'there are people who can't cope or function in any number of areas but they are not nearly all TSs.
and that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. i know you weren't talking about me hon, but that's the kind of thing that gets to me.
i suffered greatly over our condition in childhood and lost too much over that. i'm tired of people negating that or chalking it up to some 'character flaw' on my part.
My dearest, Nero. Your only 'character flaw' is the one I pmed you about!!! LOL and as you may be able to tell, I don't perceive that as a flaw, rather as something that endears you to me.
YOU ARE, Nero. That is the bottom line; and the truly important aspect of you that no one can diss or change or make light of, unless you believe them and forget WHO YOU ARE.
You are forever REAL and wondrous and absolutely valid and .... dammit, such a hard-headed and stubborn MALE!!!! LOL.
You struggle, as we all do, with knowing and feeling that some people want to find every possible way to invalidate you and WHO YOU ARE. Screw 'em. Your existence defies their feeble attempts to invalidate you.
But, I also know well from experience, that it's a constant struggle to get through, around, over, under, whatever, that.
I think we each just want to fit in and this syndrome of ours, regardless how it came about, is what it is and it makes it terribly hard for those who haven't lived with it to see beyond their illusions that the world is a nice, tidy, totally-explainable-in-terms-of-my-own-outlook-on-life-and-what-is-possible-and-what-is-not world-view that they forget that WE ARE.
Its tough to be a unicorn when no one believes that there are unicorns.
We all require human companionship and the validation that comes from having people love us just because we are ourselves. And yes, that is a hard thing to receive from only a bulletin board on internet.
You are one of my heroes, dear Nero. And, just as my son said of me, you are as you are "because you can deal with it.... Others cannot."
HUGS and love.
Posted on: December 15, 2007, 09:25:08 AM
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 15, 2007, 08:13:15 AM
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 15, 2007, 07:46:58 AM
I am aware that my mother was given diethylstilbestrol (DES) to promote what was thought to be a way to prevent miscarriages. This procedure was very typical in miscarriage-prone women from the 1940s through the very early 1970s when its use was discontinued.
hmmmm., my mom was given that too.
Posted on: December 15, 2007, 08:10:02 AM
Quote from: Nero on December 15, 2007, 07:55:26 AM
Quote'there are people who can't cope or function in any number of areas but they are not nearly all TSs.
and that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. i know you weren't talking about me hon, but that's the kind of thing that gets to me.
i suffered greatly over our condition in childhood and lost too much over that. i'm tired of people negating that or chalking it up to some 'character flaw' on my part.
i dont think thats what she meant. i took it as there are a lot of people who suffer from a lot of different things, not just ts, and it is not the inability to cope or function that makes us ts. its not discounting the pain and suffering we went through (and in many cases are still going through :-\ ) but she is saying that by itself it doesnt make us who we are.
if i'm wrong feel free to correct and/or just ignore me.
~ashley~
You are not wrong, Ashley. All kinds of folk struggle with validation and acceptance and tons of mental and physical anomalies and all without being TS.
ok. i misunderstand what you meant. thanks for clarifying, sweeties.
As most here know, i was a victim of money's lies... his doctrine was used at the time of my birth... i was asigned male at birth after corrective surgery. raised a boy, raised masculine, and punished for femininity... all boys private school... i wasnt aware of my past till recently... if this were all hormones or socilaisation... the testosterone injections, and way i was raised would suggest id be an awesome manly man...
I AM NOT A MAN. i never felt like one, ive never been able to socialise with men as a man.
please tell me what the testosterone or socilisastion did ? please? i want to know how that in any way made me male? becuse surely, i wouldnt feel female if i was socialised male? :P
R :police:
I really had a hard time pretending I was a man too.
What I said was that we are ALL socialized. Anything beyond that did not come from me, and i don't recall seeing anyone say it at all.
Now, show me a baby who transitions without the aid of its parents and a surgeon due to an intersexed condition or that there is an innate relationship between women and pink or lavender then maybe I will go with 'gender as essential.' (Essential in a metaphysical way, see below.)
The question is 'are you socialized?' Period. And if you are do your behaviors reflect your socialization? My answer to both is, 'yes.' If your behaviors are 'female' it is because you have socialized into femininity as it is culturally perceived. -- That has nothing to do with some innate 'being born a woman.' Were you born to like pink and long nails or a bra?
The fact that you rejected a male socialization because it was not perceived by yourself as what was needed is not at issue.
If estrogen in the environment, although it is just as likely that it could have been an androgenic steroid that made it, somehow caused a hormonal cascade in your Mum to go differently than your egg had anticipated and thus you were born, maybe with male genitalia when your brain had a female wiring, does that invalidate you as a woman? NO.
All I have been saying is that our behaviors within certain gender-identified norms are learned and that they are cultural. Not all cultures demand women wear bras. Not all cultures demand men wear pants or suits as we know them in the West.
So yeah, it really is tough to pretend you are something you aren't. But, your argument with me is non-existent, or seems so to me. All I am saying is that our behaviors are learned. Whether or not there is a discrepancy in our brain wiring IS NOT learned. How that discrepancy came about may well be due, this day and time, to environmentally numerous, non-natural occurrences of estrogen and androgens brought about by technological 'advances.'
Does TSism occur naturally? Yes, unless you are a one-celled creature not born that way it does. The only sure-fire way to reproduce without some mutational chance is to clone a perfect copy of the original. But, I don't think anyone here is an amoeba. With the number of genes that must be copied exactly in a strand of DNA there is a naturally occurring mistake-rate. Thus, without environmental factors a certain number of TSes every generation is likely to occur: people born with brain structures that don't fit their body maps and people with ambiguous genitalia (IS) etc.
My argument is with some Platonic Ideal in a heavenly realm somewhere that makes any of us 'essentially' male and female. I prefer biochemical for how we are and socialized for how we behave.
I think that everyone here who ids as TS quite obviously didn't 'take' with the socialization they were given. But, many of us made the attempt to get affection and acceptance from those we were raised by and among. Some of those traits we were conditioned for either remain or have been dropped and others taken on. But, my putting on my lipstick when I go out to work is not 'hard-wired.' My femaleness is.
Sorry if that has been unclear.
Quote from: Rachael on December 13, 2007, 05:16:48 AM
I know im being very blunt here. but This board, and others, and the transcommunity in general has an ethos of NON challenge of someones decided gender... Im never going to say to someone, your not a man/woman... but lets be honest, point blank beliveing anyone who says thier a man/woman when they behave, think, react, and look like the oposite is near impossible. and there is an element of dilusion and fantisy in some cases... Some attitudes expressed here in writing, are very easy to see someones thought patterns. and a fair few 'm2fs' debate, think, and talk in very male ways... same with some f2ms in some very female ways... im not talking about steriotypes here, or masculine and feminine, im talking about MAN and WOMAN things...
I would think it would be awfully hypocritical to create spaces like Susan's that are designed to discuss fluid gender and then turn around and, as you say, "challenge someone's decided gender." I understand what you're saying in your post, Rachael, but it seems to me that you're trying to collapse what most everyone recognizes as a spectrum into a simple binary. By your same logic, we ought to be critical (perhaps gently so, as I don't think your post is intended to be mean-spirited) of cisgendered folks who don't adhere to stereotypical norms, or "MAN and WOMAN things," as you put it.
Look, delusion and fantasy are certainly not unique to this community -- my college-age students say things that strike me as fantastic and delusional all the time. However, I myself am not confident about passing judgment on others' beliefs and writing to someone that they're never going to be a man because they don't act like the Marlboro Man. It just seems to fall into the essentialism trap far too easily.
I think that we have to take into account that peeps that don't believe in gender as a "spectrum" will make an opinion based on those beliefs. I only believe in the binary and my opinions may appear insulting to peeps that believe otherwise but sorry that's what I believe. If we can't discuss a topic truthfully and with honesty, how in the world are we going to express our opinions?
I hold the same view... i belive in man and woman... if others want to belive in different.. is it my place to tell them they cant? just dont force me to belive your way, or tell me mine is wrong...
live and let live.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 15, 2007, 02:58:37 PM
live and let live.
Indeed, Rachael. I'd certainly agree with you. I think that was my only point a few posts ago, namely that it felt as if you were being critical of those who are delusional or having fantasies about how they are, and that I preferred to live and let live. It appears that we see eye to eye on this issue, so
mea culpa on my misreading.
i dont think you did misread... I am critical of those who are delusional... simply because its in thier best interests to NOT be... happy in thier bubble? maybe? catasropic when that bubble bursts? yes... bring them down safely? the only option...
I would personally want people to tell me if i was bonkers...
R :police:
I see. So it's "live and let life" unless you feel otherwise?
I don't necessarily disagree with you about helpful criticism for friends who may end up hurting themselves or getting hurt via unwise decisions. I'm just not sure you're talking about being protectively helpful or being brutally honest to be point of hurtfulness. Maybe that's a line that's hard to discern among friends? I'm also not sure when you'd stick to your "live and let live" credo and when you'd ditch it in order to tell someone they're "bonkers."
its never that simple...
sometimes being militantly live and let live, can be as bad as being hightly oppinionated...
I try to find a ballence... there are times when one should say something, and times to just flow...
there are different cases... respecting others gender identity, is not the same thing, as sitting there while say, the machoest, most male looking m2f tells you how awesomely they pass and are stealth...
R :police:
I think Live and Let live is good for random strangers, but with
friends, this is not a good solution. It hurts yourself and them
if you don't tell them your honest opinion. IF they trust
you and your forthright they will accept it even if it hurts.
Lying to your friends is much worse.
Quote from: Keira on December 15, 2007, 07:49:55 PM
I think Live and Let live is good for random strangers, but with
friends, this is not a good solution. It hurts yourself and them
if you don't tell them your honest opinion. IF they trust
you and your forthright they will accept it even if it hurts.
Lying to your friends is much worse.
yep. even if honesty hurts your friend for a moment, they're better off in the long run.
Quote from: Rachael on December 15, 2007, 03:08:59 PM
I would personally want people to tell me if i was bonkers...
R :police:
OK, you're bonkers ;) :D
i know... its my middle name...
R :police: