Hello, I've always thought I wouldn't need to get bottom surgery, but the longer I'm on hrt, I'm not so sure. In group one of the older girls mentioned I have to keep function of my thingie so it can be used for bottom surgery. I do? I hadn't even tried to use it in months. So I went home and reached an O, noticing it will still get semi hard for that. How often is this needed? Befire hrt, my thingie was ruling my life and I had to reach an O 8 or 9 times a day everyday. I don't miss it at all, I just want to do the minimum required for gcs. Also, is there a rule of thumb that if you are a certain size you'll get the same size depth? Or do you get less, or more? I have to admit I'm a size queen, and the ones I usually enjoy are way bigger than my own:)
Bari Jo
The chats I heard if you have 9 inches of penis so you will have a 9 inch NeoVagina seems to be a myth.
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Also there are the techniques that don't rely on penile length to begin with as far as I know.
I've heard the actively using it thing quite a few times but only in regards to sensitivity, not depth. Probably has something to do with blood flow maintaining nerve tissue
I have no answers, it did bring things to mind that it's something I'll likely never worry about. Cost+necessity. Unless my wife passes or leaves (can I say God forbid!) I don't need working parts. I just want no parts. My goal is successful HRT that shrinks it down to an unmanageable size ... unmanageable meaning no touching necessary and out of sight.
I suppose I could search on how much size people lost once on the magic pills (or alternative thereof).
Bari Jo .. BIGGER NOW? Before surgery? HOW? I'm lucky to tolerate a finger size when things swung around to that side of things. OWWWwwww :P
Ok, sorry for the interruption, back to your regularly scheduled topic ...
I'm quite the conversation piece at my hairdressers place, and we've discussed transitioning and women's issues plenty. I brought up trans women's obsessions with depth...and they all moved away from me on the group W bench. They said that was the strangest thing they had learned from me in all this time. It's not something women even think about, as far as I can tell.
Hugs, Devlyn
Yes, my favorite playmate is large. I don't know if I could pleasure him vaginally if I got gcs. Anally I'm fine with him, and love that.
Bari Jo
Quote from: Bari Jo on January 09, 2018, 10:19:34 AM
In group one of the older girls mentioned I have to keep function of my thingie so it can be used for bottom surgery. I do?
No, not at all.
Quote from: Bari Jo on January 09, 2018, 10:19:34 AM
Also, is there a rule of thumb that if you are a certain size you'll get the same size depth? Or do you get less, or more? I have to admit I'm a size queen, and the ones I usually enjoy are way bigger than my own:)
No, there is no such rule. It has more to do with your physical size (a cavity must be created in your lower abdomen for the vaginal canal), the surgeon's technique and typical provisioning for a vaginal canal, and if there does not happen to be enough on the donor tissue, then a graft can be taken from the leg to make a canal depth that is more standard.
Typically, from my own experience, and from reading others' statements that have had grs, 5-6" is the norm. And my wife is 5'9" and has had a hysterectomy and last weekend the toy bottomed out on her at 5".
I hope you don't have to use "it" regularly for good SRS results! If so I'm screwed. I worry about having enough depth too. My boyfriend is really big. I was hoping with good dilaton I would be able to increase my depth after surgery. I won't ever have enough depth to take all of him but I hope I have enough to satisfy him. As for taking that analy, it took a little time and lots of lube with a numbing agent that didn't do much. I don't like anal but I let my BF do it because at the moment that's all I have available for penetration. He's mentioned how tight I am and that he likes that. So now I worry if I'll be tight enough after surgery. I doubt it will be as tight as my backside but I don't want it to be like him throwing a hotdog down a hallway either.
Women may or may not think about it. I know I regret having lost an inch of my depth because I was fairly ginger about dilation, fearing injury if I pressed too hard.
I'm thrilled with my vagina and I'm glad that all the depth was lined with the penile inversion skin without need for grafts the difference for me is that I had tactile sensation all the way to the full depth. My surgeon would have created 6+ inches of depth irrespective and would have used a graft to achieve it if necessary.
My cis GF has considerably more depth than I do and I'm a little sad about that, still my result is completely functional and the only implication is that I could have some trouble taking a penis as big as the one I used to have. I'm not sweating it practically because penises larger than 6" are pretty rare but I'm sorry I'll miss that option and I'm working slowly to regain depth now I'm being fairly aggressive with dilation.
:o
I think I'm too young to hear all this
I don't know the answer, but there is significant variation depending on Surgeon. Suporn averages 7", which I believe is above average. Some, if not most, surgeons are definitely below that.
Maximum vaginal depth attained with the scrotal skin graft beyond the original position of the peritoneal reflection (Douglas Pouch). A minimum of 6.0" (15.25 cm) vaginal depth is guaranteed immediately after surgery in all cases of SRS. The modal average is 7.0" (17.8 cm) depth.
http://www.supornclinic.com/restricted/srs/srstechnique.aspx
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_vaginal_size
A cis woman's vagina increases in length and width when she is aroused. Her uterus moves upward to allow for the vaginal canal to lengthen, and the vagina widens inside ("tenting") to accommodate penetration from a penis.
A trans woman's vagina does not have these properties. The depth you get after surgery is the depth you always have. It doesn't lengthen or widen when you get turned on.
This is why cis women don't really think about depth, because their vagina dynamically changes for sex. It just happens, so they don't have to think or worry about it. But since trans women's vaginas don't naturally expand for sex, having good depth from surgery is often a high priority for those who expect to have sex with men.
If post-op vaginal depth is important to you, you will likely want to have non-inversion SRS (Suporn or Chettawut), or sigmoid-colon SRS.
Dr. Ley said I can expect 6" depth from GCS next week if I dilate correctly. I'm fine with that.
I hope you have successful surgery and recovery next week, Kendra, keep us updated on how everything goes for you.
echo7, how you explained about the differences in cis vagina and a trans woman vagina is so true. Most women don't realize how their changes when they get excited and feel sexy.
Yeah had to promise I won't ride my Harley to Arizona. :P
Quote from: echo7 on January 09, 2018, 01:30:59 PM
A cis woman's vagina increases in length and width when she is aroused. Her uterus moves upward to allow for the vaginal canal to lengthen, and the vagina widens inside ("tenting") to accommodate penetration from a penis.
A trans woman's vagina does not have these properties. The depth you get after surgery is the depth you always have. It doesn't lengthen or widen when you get turned on.
This is why cis women don't really think about depth, because their vagina dynamically changes for sex. It just happens, so they don't have to think or worry about it. But since trans women's vaginas don't naturally expand for sex, having good depth from surgery is often a high priority for those who expect to have sex with men.
If post-op vaginal depth is important to you, you will likely want to have non-inversion SRS (Suporn or Chettawut), or sigmoid-colon SRS.
Well that's great. My vagina will be substandard compared to a genetic one. I really hate being trans!!
Quote from: Julia1996 on January 09, 2018, 02:13:09 PM
Well that's great. My vagina will be substandard compared to a genetic one. I really hate being trans!!
Average vagina depth will equal cis women according to the wiki page, it just won't be "dynamic".
Quote from: Julia1996 on January 09, 2018, 02:13:09 PM
Well that's great. My vagina will be substandard compared to a genetic one. I really hate being trans!!
Well, I still thing I'm too young for this conversation, but, if you take measurements beforehand, there should be no problem :)
Quote from: Julia1996 on January 09, 2018, 02:13:09 PM
Well that's great. My vagina will be substandard compared to a genetic one. I really hate being trans!!
Will your vagina be the same as a cis woman's vagina? No. But will it be substandard? Not necessarily. In some ways it's even better!
Yes, your vagina will be tighter than a cis woman's vagina, but a LOT of men prefer this. Men tend to like it when their penis is being gripped tightly inside the vaginal canal. Some men say that having sex with a post-op trans woman is like having sex with a permanent virgin. :)
As long as your vagina is 6 inches deep, you should be able to receive almost any man. And you will get at least 6 inches for sure if you go to Chettawut or Suporn. You may also get 6 inches if you get penile inversion SRS, but it's not guaranteed. But even if you don't, it's not the end of the world. A lot of men (and women) enjoy the back-and-forth motion of penis-in-vagina sex more than being able to get all of it in all the way.
Quote from: Julia1996 on January 09, 2018, 11:50:49 AM
I hope you don't have to use "it" regularly for good SRS results! If so I'm screwed.
Yeah, you and me both, Julia!
I have tried playing with it a couple of times since starting HRT, and in a cost-benefit analysis, it just wasn't worth it. Dr. Brassard is just going to have to work with what's there.
Lucky thing for me I'm leaning towards the "cosmetic" variation of GRS. It's not like I'm going to be using a vagina for anything.
I believe that penile inversion can be a bit of a misleading term. Consider that the penis is much higher on the body than the position of where the new vagina is. Unless one is extremely well endowed, it is not going to stretch all the way down there and be long enough to serve as the vagina. I think many doctors use scrotal skin for much of the the interior of the vagina. I think this is called a hybrid penile inversion. Depth has a lot to do with the space that is available. Depth can be increased through pressure during dilation, well, to some extent. This is my understanding , at least with some procedures.
Moni
Quote from: AnonyMs on January 09, 2018, 12:06:33 PM
I don't know the answer, but there is significant variation depending on Surgeon. Suporn averages 7", which I believe is above average. Some, if not most, surgeons are definitely below that.
Maximum vaginal depth attained with the scrotal skin graft beyond the original position of the peritoneal reflection (Douglas Pouch). A minimum of 6.0" (15.25 cm) vaginal depth is guaranteed immediately after surgery in all cases of SRS. The modal average is 7.0" (17.8 cm) depth.
http://www.supornclinic.com/restricted/srs/srstechnique.aspx
To quite my previous post, I may be wrong, but I believe the reason that Suporn gets so much depth is the part I in bold. I don't think many other surgeons do this, so it doesn't matter if they take a graft from elsewhere or not, its still going to be limited in depth by this part of the body.
Quote from: echo7 on January 09, 2018, 04:52:59 PM
Yes, your vagina will be tighter than a cis woman's vagina, but a LOT of men prefer this. Men tend to like it when their penis is being gripped tightly inside the vaginal canal. Some men say that having sex with a post-op trans woman is like having sex with a permanent virgin. :)
This is the best part. We won't be loosey-gooseys. :P
The downside is it may cause some premature endings. Haha!
This notion that the Thai surgeons are going to get their patients more depth is somewhat absurd. All the surgeons I know of doing pi technique take partial thickness skin grafts to achieve depth if the penile skin isn't sufficient. As someone said earlier, the only limitation is the peritoneal wall.
Also I know post op women who are capable of enjoying vaginal fisting, while this doesn't preclude being "tight" which simply comes from the PC muscles, it certainly says that there is little functional difference between a neo vs natal vagina.
Quote from: SadieBlake on January 09, 2018, 07:02:56 PM
Echo, this notion that the Thai surgeons are going to get their patients more depth is somewhat absurd. All the surgeons I know of doing pi technique take partial thickness skin grafts to achieve depth if the penile skin isn't sufficient. As someone said earlier, the only limitation is the peritoneal wall.
I think these posts support the view that depth is normally limited by the peritoneal reflection, which Suporn goes past. I don't know the why's of it.
Peritoneal reflection
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=69603.0
Re: Dr. Christine McGinn vs Dr. Suporn SRS?
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,220916.msg1966787.html#msg1966787
Re: Considering Suporn and Brassard for SRS
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,90908.msg916109.html#msg916109
This thread has been very enlightening. I might not be able to take my favourite partner fully vaginally, but can pretty much most men. That note on fisting, Wth? I don't even know how that is possible.
Bari Jo
Quote from: Bari Jo on January 09, 2018, 07:44:26 PM
That note on fisting, Wth? I don't even know how that is possible.
8 years of training by Tibetan monks in which every day consists of 16 hours of meditation and learning to control every muscle in one's physical form, that's how.
Oh, or maybe drugs. Probably more likely the drugs.
Quote from: SadieBlake on January 09, 2018, 07:02:56 PM
This notion that the Thai surgeons are going to get their patients more depth is somewhat absurd. All the surgeons I know of doing pi technique take partial thickness skin grafts to achieve depth if the penile skin isn't sufficient. As someone said earlier, the only limitation is the peritoneal wall.
And yet, time after time, Chettawut and Suporn girls consistently have more depth than girls who went to surgeons who use the PI method.
About the original question, over time on hrt you do lose size. I've been on hrt for nearly 20 years and have lost some tissue. Thankfully I had more than enough to start 😒with, so the loss shouldn't be troubling to my surgeon. I think if you don't exercise it once in a while, the nerves begin to fail, and when you get srs in this scenario you will still be unable to orgasm.
Echo is right that Suporn and Chettawhut do tend to get better depth on average. BITD the penile inversion surgeons typically got 5 while Suporn was getring 7. Originally that was the big draw for Suporn-his consistantly higher depth attracted clients more that the aesthetics at first. I think the PI surgeons may now be getting close to 6; but Suporn and Chet still at 7 or more. (Ironically Sanguan who uses a very similar method to Suporn only gets 5, but then again, the last I heard was a few years back). There are trade offs with either approach.
One other thing I've long wondered about. A lot of post-op women with 5 inches of depth or less often say it doesn't matter in coitus and that they can handle large organs 🎹. I am suspicious of this narrative, sort of like the hair in vagina issue. Having transitioned many years ago and being out in the clubs, I encountered a good number partners over 5/6 inches. One boyfriend was 9 and another 8. The average natal female can stretch and accomodate just about any size. I just am not sure that a 5 inch neo vagina can accomodate a 8/9 inch penis which is above average, but fairly common. It seems like only some of Suporn/Chet's work or the colon version can handle that size.
Ugh, browser locked up while posting. Was gonna ask... does any of this have bearing on the newer peritoneal method? I'm hopeful by the time I consider gcs it will be more readily available, since early reports make it sound like the other methods are basically obsolete with it in play, but wondering if anyone knows how things such as sensitivity might relate to continued use of male parts in the meanwhile (obviously depth wouldn't be impacted).
Quote from: Roll on January 09, 2018, 11:19:30 PM
Was gonna ask... does any of this have bearing on the newer peritoneal method? I'm hopeful by the time I consider gcs it will be more readily available, since early reports make it sound like the other methods are basically obsolete with it in play
There's very little early reports and the article was basically marketing. Its far to soon to say if its actually any good.
Quote from: echo7 on January 09, 2018, 01:30:59 PM
A cis woman's vagina increases in length and width when she is aroused. Her uterus moves upward to allow for the vaginal canal to lengthen, and the vagina widens inside ("tenting") to accommodate penetration from a penis.
A trans woman's vagina does not have these properties. The depth you get after surgery is the depth you always have. It doesn't lengthen or widen when you get turned on.
This is why cis women don't really think about depth, because their vagina dynamically changes for sex. It just happens, so they don't have to think or worry about it. But since trans women's vaginas don't naturally expand for sex, having good depth from surgery is often a high priority for those who expect to have sex with men.
If post-op vaginal depth is important to you, you will likely want to have non-inversion SRS (Suporn or Chettawut), or sigmoid-colon SRS.
So glad you put this info out. I'm sick of reading some comments here saying well the cis female vaginas are average 5 inches deep ... while purposely ignoring your first paragraph here .... they keep on saying these things here n I wish more people start educating them bout the cis female anatomy
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Quote from: Roll on January 09, 2018, 11:19:30 PM
Ugh, browser locked up while posting. Was gonna ask... does any of this have bearing on the newer peritoneal method? I'm hopeful by the time I consider gcs it will be more readily available, since early reports make it sound like the other methods are basically obsolete with it in play, but wondering if anyone knows how things such as sensitivity might relate to continued use of male parts in the meanwhile (obviously depth wouldn't be impacted).
If it's as good as the hype, you probably won't need to wait too long for it to become the default technique. Most things aren't as good as the hype, although as a doctor I recognize the potential advantages in this case. I asked my surgeon (Manrique) about it and his response made it clear that it wasn't on the short term horizon for his practice. And, after the butt kicking that I recently suffered from FFS/BA, I'm pretty sure that I don't want to be a whole lot older when I go through GCS. I'll take the technique with which they are most experienced.