Title says it all. I do believe there are degrees of transsexualism. What about you?
Note: If you just want to argue about the relevance of this discussion, we've heard it all before. This is a serious inquiry into the degrees of our condition.
I tend to agree with you. Some people are better able to deal with the feelings.
Sarah L.
More on this:
There seem to be different degrees of somatic dysphoria and of social dysphoria.
Some peeps are very dysphoric about genitals and such, and some aren't.
There are TS who experience much difficulty early in life do to being the wrong gender and those who don't.
Quote from: Nero on December 19, 2007, 04:42:46 PM
Title says it all. I do believe there are degrees of transsexualism. What about you?
Absolutely! I also think that level of intensity that one feels can change during different times in ones' life.
y2g
it'd be naive of people to think that there aren't types. Dr. Harry Benjamin himself classified transsexualism into different groups and subtypes. I'm a
diagnosed type VI.
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm
Group 1
Type I Pseudo TV
Type II Fetishistic TV
Type III True TV
Group 2
Type IV TS, Nonsurgical
Group 3
Type V TS, Moderate intensity
Type VI TS, High intensity
Quote from: Valentina on December 19, 2007, 05:20:46 PM
it'd be naive of people to think that there aren't types. Dr. Harry Benjamin himself classified transsexualism into different groups and subtypes. I'm a
diagnosed type VI.
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm
Group 1
Type I Pseudo TV
Type II Fetishistic TV
Type III True TV
Group 2
Type IV TS, Nonsurgical
Group 3
Type V TS, Moderate intensity
Type VI TS, High intensity
Hi, Nero, Valentina,
Call it what you will, mild, moderate, or severe, when all is said and done one is either transsexual or they they are not. No grey scales here. Being a little bit transsexual is like having a mild case of pregnancy.
My two cents' worth.
Wing Walker
Quote from: Wing Walker on December 19, 2007, 05:29:18 PM
Quote from: Valentina on December 19, 2007, 05:20:46 PM
it'd be naive of people to think that there aren't types. Dr. Harry Benjamin himself classified transsexualism into different groups and subtypes. I'm a
diagnosed type VI.
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm
Group 1
Type I Pseudo TV
Type II Fetishistic TV
Type III True TV
Group 2
Type IV TS, Nonsurgical
Group 3
Type V TS, Moderate intensity
Type VI TS, High intensity
Hi, Nero, Valentina,
Call it what you will, mild, moderate, or severe, when all is said and done one is either transsexual or they they are not. No grey scales here. Being a little bit transsexual is like having a mild case of pregnancy.
My two cents' worth.
Wing Walker
Yes and no. A severe case of the flu isn't the same as a mild case. It is still the flu but both types necessitate different ways to treat it. The same with transsexualism. not every trans person wants surgery or wants to kill themselves.
Quote from: Renate on December 19, 2007, 06:56:25 PM
I definitely believe that there are degrees to transsexualism.
I have never claimed as intense a need to transition physically and socially as others that I have heard from.
Like most transsexuals, my feelings go back to a very young age, but I never had depression or suicidal thoughts.
For me, I consider the issue to be a set of weighing scales. When they have tipped over to the other side you've made your decision.
I do have somatic dysphoria and changing my body with hormones now and in the future with surgery is the solution.
Transitioning socially for me was neither the greatest thrill nor the greatest trepidation.
It simply brought me the freedom of honesty.
Renate
Thank you for your reasoned replies. I see the logic and my mind it gets sort of blurry. There are those like me who need to have the inner and outer person at least congruent with one another and others who, for whatever reason, will not see surgery . Those people are no less or more transsexual than I am. I can see the differences, however, I find it hard for me to assimilate them.
Transsexuality is transsexuality, to be clearly distinguished from any manifestation of being transgendered, and either a person has it badly, so to speak, or they have a mild case, as I have read it. That is a mind-broadening concept to me, I suppose.
"I yam what I yam and that's all what I yam!" fits well here, I suppose.
Thank you.
Wing Walker
Quote: Different Degrees of Transsexualism
Of course. They are called primary and secondary transsexualism. There, I said it! :P
tink :icon_chick:
Tink... You like to pump the polemic machine ;D
Degree, is a continuum, like temperatur, not a binary, so hey primary and secondary wouldn't fit.
Besides,
Primary and secondary definition is a theory with very little empirical support..
Besides, TS who identify as such.... That's all I will say. 8)
Now, I'll burry the issue 6 foot so it will be dead for good.
Quote from: Keira on December 19, 2007, 08:15:17 PM
Tink... You like to pump the polemic machine ;D
Let's get the dragons out! >:D I didn't invent those terms BTW. Harry Benjamin did. A primary transsexual is often called a "true" or "full-fledged transsexual". If people don't like these terms, well, we will have to resuscitate Harry in order to ask him why he had the audacity to come up with these terms ;)
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02table.htm
tink :icon_chick:
YEah, but benjamin was just a theory, its old, has not really been improved
much in 40 years. That's not very good for a theory. IT being a continuum,
discrete (various stages) or progressive is more probably if it is not a binary.
Benjamin was a pioneer, its very very rare a pioneer gets things right.
In physics, it took hundreds of years before the base theories solidified.
The first ones were mostly superceeded or at least became special cases
of more general theories.
Quote from: Keira on December 19, 2007, 08:15:17 PM
Tink... You like to pump the polemic machine ;D
Agreed. Threads like these can get very nasty. I tend to agree with WingWalker: You either are or are not. Extensive labeling and categorization is a holdover from the past when we were considered mentally disordered and treated like lab rats. We are not lab rats and we are not mentally disordered. We have a birth condition that is a normal biological variant. Through our life experiences we self-diagnose ourselves and then move forward to bring our body and brain into alignment.
Classification systems belong on the trash heap of history. They have only caused trouble, frustration and pain for us.
I agree that there are different levels of transsexualism.
Anyway in the frame work that has been laid out here.
But I also think there maybe another side to all of this.
All of us are different and we do have different pain thresholds.
That is some people can stand more pain than others.
So it seem to me that some maybe able to hold up under the more intense internal presser to transition physically and or socially than others can. I believe some maybe able to function, to some level normallcy, as there birth sex despite there intense desires to transition. But other can't even with less intense GID.
To accurately considering effects of the level of transsexualism all subjects should be exactly alike and in the same envrionment but we are not. We can only make limited assumptions from what we perceive.
Just my thoughts on this.
:)
Jillieann
Hi all, just dropped in for a sec. Thought I would introduce you to my new friend who does Renfests here in Vancouver. Wing Walker and I had really good time with her last night. Now I am just a little less bored. To young to sit in a rocking chair sowing sweaters. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwFllQDU6rs
Cindy
ever noticed that the only people who dislike 'primary and secondary', are the secondarys?
inner jelousy? self loathing?
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 19, 2007, 09:41:06 PM
ever noticed that the only people who dislike 'primary and secondary', are the secondarys?
inner jelousy? self loathing?
R :police:
*smile* Yes, that could well be true. Or, one might also say, as has been, that the primaries who want to harp on it simply want to build their own confidence that they are 'the real thing' or better than others.
It's another competitive game that has been played out a few hundred thousand times on this and many other TS boards, websites, blogs, articles, etc. And generally always leads to hard feelings and some feeling more validated and some feeling less.
Make distinctions if that makes you feel better. BTW, yes, Rach, I have heard that title tossed my direction more than a few times: "the real thing."
Finally what does my realness or lack of it mean to anyone but me. I do what I must do and what you are or think of yourself affects me not at all.
Someone else's realness is not mine to judge. Their business entirely.
Are there more than one type? Prolly so, just like there is more than one type of collie, or frog.
Rachael, your own theory doesn't work since I almost transitioned, even took hormones for years, starting at 20 and tought about living another life, from age 10 (when by girlfriends started puberty), so I'd be classified as primary by those criteria. Yet, I'm still against that theory. Why? Because I'm at heart a scientist, and the theory doesn't describe reality too well. And that's why the classification has fallen out of favors in those few who study TS in a non quack manner.
Also, assigning motives, or states of mind, to others is always a losing proposition unless your a mind reader. I'm pretty sure your not. ::)
And as long as we are resurrecting ideas about how to classify TSes, should we discuss the Blanchard, Bailey, Lawrence theory of the two types as well? Umm, Homosexual men and paraphiliac men. That's it. There are no FTMs at all. Makes short work of women to men. Erases them all together!
->-bleeped-<- (paraphiliacs) are characterized by being scientists, executives, lawyers, doctors, construction workers, pilots, etc. Homosexual men are characterized by being prostitutes, waitresses, day care workers, dancers and hair-dressers.
Women fall into the roughly the same categories as do the homosexual men!! Really now!!
Categorizing and labeling are almost always used as straw-persons that can be easily knocked over for the sake of proving one or another fairly ludicrous proposition.
Even though my current employment, or soon-to-be employment, doesn't fall into the categories above, I think being a woman is what it is, and what I am if I get right down to it.
And I am willing to accept that others are women as well. I am also willing to accept that men are men.
TSes? Well, that's a metamorphic creature, very like an insect pupa or larva. They are on the way, generally, to becoming something else entirely.
Quoteprimaries shouldnt feel superior. they should damn well feel lucky.
Speaking for myself here of course, but I don't.
Yes Rachael I'm jealousy or maybe a better word would be envious of the as has been said the "primary".
Envious of people who realized at a early age that they were TS.
I made it to over 50 before I understood what was wrong.
Envious of people who were able to transition before they had a life time (over 30 years) with a SO that they would hurt very deeply if they transition as well as children and grandchildren.
Envious of people who did not have, like myself, a dual personality or should I say a second person inside whom I fought with daily just to stay sane and survive for over 50 years.
But I am glad that you have been able to transition, your story gives me hope for the future.
I pray that no one has to suffer as I have and in someways continue too do so today.
Jillieann
Posted on: December 19, 2007, 11:30:20 PM
Quoteprimaries shouldnt feel superior. they should damn well feel lucky.
*looking around for fire hydrant to douse fire he started*
Maybe 'degrees of transsexualism' was the wrong phrase. I was just wondering if it's possible it manifests in different ways. For instance, I bear no ill will toward my genitals but some other transguys do. I know that doesn't make them any more trans than me, they just feel differently about that.
Well, whoever transition early, transitions early, and that's what I call it, early transitioner.
There is no sound theoritical basis for any other classification, if classification even exists.
which itself is in dispute.
Anyway, I just don't want to get into this because the whole classification thing is
incredibly divisive and pointless in the overall scheme of things.
We all live our lives as best we can, and hopefully its a good life.
Somatic VS social disphoria is another place where normal classifications falters
(this was not well described earlier by Benjamin). You could feel an intense need to transition socially
at an early age and then feel less driven to go the last mile to full somatic transition.
For others, a body transition as soon as possible solves all issues and then they don't
care how others perceive them (male, female, or whatever).
Quote from: Jillieann on December 19, 2007, 10:31:52 PM
Yes Rachael I'm jealousy or maybe a better word would be envious of the as has been said the "primary".
Envious of people who realized at a early age that they were TS.
I made it to over 50 before I understood what was wrong.
Envious of people who were able to transition before they had a life time (over 30 years) with a SO that they would hurt very deeply if they transition as well as children and grandchildren.
Envious of people who did not have, like myself, a dual personality or should I say a second person inside whom I fought with daily just to stay sane and survive for over 50 years.
But I am glad that you have been able to transition, your story gives me hope for the future.
I pray that no one has to suffer as I have and in someways continue too do so today.
Jillieann
Posted on: December 19, 2007, 11:30:20 PM
Quoteprimaries shouldnt feel superior. they should damn well feel lucky.
Your post really touched my heart Jilleann. You care about the future and do not wish others to suffer like you have and that is such an admirable and rare quality.
I think some people take what they can with both hands greedily and forget the trials and tribulations that others have gone through to make it all possible to start with.
Quote from: Nero on December 19, 2007, 10:33:29 PM
*looking around for fire hydrant to douse fire he started*
Maybe 'degrees of transsexualism' was the wrong phrase. I was just wondering if it's possible it manifests in different ways. For instance, I bear no ill will toward my genitals but some other transguys do. I know that doesn't make them any more trans than me, they just feel differently about that.
Hi, Nero, Is the above statement correct on your part?
Thanks!
Wing Walker
which statement?
another note. since 'primary and secondary' was brought up. i don't know that primary and secondary are the right terms, but i do strongly believe there is a difference between a woman who has always known she was a girl and a woman who wakes up one day around age 30 and thinks, 'you know i should've been a girl.'
No, please Nero. ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!
Now. Now. I'm better... We've "discussed" this before and there is NO POINT to it.
No matter what our belief are. They are all unsupported.
I beg that noone reopens this pandora's box.
of course there are different degrees, to think otherwise would be limited in thinking. If there weren't, what would be the point of this site? Everyone would be exactly the same. Humans are all about variations. Why wouldn't transsexualism be the same?
Quote from: Nero on December 19, 2007, 10:33:29 PM
*looking around for fire hydrant to douse fire he started*
Maybe 'degrees of transsexualism' was the wrong phrase. I was just wondering if it's possible it manifests in different ways. For instance, I bear no ill will toward my genitals but some other transguys do. I know that doesn't make them any more trans than me, they just feel differently about that.
I would venture that there are as many degrees of TSs as there are TSs, each person being unique. OTOH I think there are transsexuals and those who think they are but are dealing with something else entirely. A girl in my TS support group referred to another "TS" who was giving us a ride to the BART station as "that guy." I said to her isn't it funny that there are so many people who classify themselves as trans who just vibe so male that it is hard to call them "she."
Anyway, there are degrees of dysphoria but one is either trans or not and there are an awful lot of wannabees out there which is very puzzling.
Posted on: December 20, 2007, 12:06:25 AM
Quote from: Nero on December 19, 2007, 11:13:12 PM
which statement?
another note. since 'primary and secondary' was brought up. i don't know that primary and secondary are the right terms, but i do strongly believe there is a difference between a woman who has always known she was a girl and a woman who wakes up one day around age 30 and thinks, 'you know i should've been a girl.'
I would classify that person as a non-transsexual.
dunno. maybe. I dont like talkin' about this b/c people think this means "I'm more trans then u" and it aint so. People are diferent. some know early. some dont. it doestn make anybody more trans then other people. I dont hate my bottom parts. but I wanna get it done to use the locker room. gym, take a shower w/other dudes. I wanna take a shower where I gotta. I dont wanna hide in a bathroom stall when I pee. I just wanna do what regular dudes do ..you know.
Chris, plenty if real dude's don't use the urinals :-).
At home, my father's never peed standing up and
an informal poll at a christmas party showed that just 20%
peed standing up at home, in public setting, it was about 50%.
Besides this little mention; I get your point :D.
Quote from: Nero on December 19, 2007, 11:13:12 PM
which statement?
another note. since 'primary and secondary' was brought up. i don't know that primary and secondary are the right terms, but i do strongly believe there is a difference between a woman who has always known she was a girl and a woman who wakes up one day around age 30 and thinks, 'you know i should've been a girl.'
Sounds like someone who is happy in their birth gender and presentation.
QuoteHumans are all about variations.
Hi Veronica and all.
I felt for myself the experiences. Some were very much tangible and some not so easily discernible changes going on within myself as time progressed. Some of these changes were slow developing and some almost explosive like in nature.
Of course I experienced many changes, and I am not speaking of just the physical part of me but also psychological, how I felt about certain things. It was a time of growth and learning how to discern the subtle as well as the intense experiences. It changed my perspective of things in this reality, things that I was not even aware of prior to estrogen HRT.
Do you remember the gentle warning some of the girls have said here, to keep a box of Kleenex handy if you think the results of the climax of a given situation might be emotional experience? They weren't wrong.
Each one of us is unique with our varied, different ways. We each perceive the same occurrence but see it differently when filtered through the frame of reference we call experience. In that way we are no different from anyone else out there. Warning!!! Warning!!! No, you are not losing it! Enjoy the emotions and feelings! This is one way to learn who truly resides within you and it's OK to talk about it here in the group.
A true transsexual in order to survive transitioning had better not be weak heart.
Big girls don't cry BS
Cindy
Seems like there are multiple things affecting the "degree" of being TS.
There are various kinds of dysphoria - that vary in intensity in different inviduals:
* having the right parts underneath
* being perceived as the correct gender
With the same amout of GID some people suffer much more than others due to e.g. less coping skills, more intolerant culture etc.
Some people are more extrovert and express what they feel while others find ways to avoid things exploding on their faces...
Quote from: Chris on December 20, 2007, 12:58:47 AM
dunno. maybe. I dont like talkin' about this b/c people think this means "I'm more trans then u" and it aint so. People are diferent. some know early. some dont. it doestn make anybody more trans then other people. I dont hate my bottom parts. but I wanna get it done to use the locker room. gym, take a shower w/other dudes. I wanna take a shower where I gotta. I dont wanna hide in a bathroom stall when I pee. I just wanna do what regular dudes do ..you know.
If it doesn't matter, then why make the distinction at all? (Not neccesarily directed at Chris, just wanted to toss it out there)
To the OP:
Yes.
i think nero did raise a good point... There have been people in the 70s, this horridly nasty time you described, who came out, and transitioned,... at a young age, and other ages. Some people on here constantly remind me of how horrid it was back then, and how easy you young uns have it today... (sound familiar?) i tell you one thing, its NOT easier... not when you loose everything becuse your parents are a***holes from 'your time' I dont find anything offensive about primary and secondry... One group, come out young, and transition young, one group transition later... seriously, if you think im falsely categorising you, please tell me, if you DIDNT transition in your 30s onwards, please, let me know, so i dont miscategorise some folk... whats offensive about the truth? or is this one of those cases of 'la la la la not listening im really a teenage girl im not 40 honest' routines?
back to the topic howerver....
i do belive there are different degrees of transexualism... i found out about myself very young, and i came out, and im ft by 20 now...
i tried to commit suicide 3 times in my teens, because i was so unhappy and in pain... i literally waited as long as i could, i suffered my maximum... i would have died if i hadnt transitioned when i did.
there are people who come out young, and transition young
there are people who come out young, and transition late, or over a longer time.
there are those people who come out later, and transition later...
thier all transexual. your all living as your true sex now... what does it matter how transexual you are? i dont WANT to be some 'awesome super cool primary' for lols... its not a status symbol to me... i just suffered more in a shorter period of time...
there are different degrees of transexualism. its fairly evident. Even if they dont want to admit it because it might ruin thier '->-bleeped-<- cred'
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 20, 2007, 06:19:28 AM
i think nero did raise a good point... There have been people in the 70s, this horridly nasty time you described, who came out, and transitioned,... at a young age, and other ages. Some people on here constantly remind me of how horrid it was back then, and how easy you young uns have it today... (sound familiar?) i tell you one thing, its NOT easier... not when you loose everything becuse your parents are a***holes from 'your time' I dont find anything offensive about primary and secondry... One group, come out young, and transition young, one group transition later... seriously, if you think im falsely categorising you, please tell me, if you DIDNT transition in your 30s onwards, please, let me know, so i dont miscategorise some folk... whats offensive about the truth? or is this one of those cases of 'la la la la not listening im really a teenage girl im not 40 honest' routines?
back to the topic howerver....
i do belive there are different degrees of transexualism... i found out about myself very young, and i came out, and im ft by 20 now...
i tried to commit suicide 3 times in my teens, because i was so unhappy and in pain... i literally waited as long as i could, i suffered my maximum... i would have died if i hadnt transitioned when i did.
there are people who come out young, and transition young
there are people who come out young, and transition late, or over a longer time.
there are those people who come out later, and transition later...
thier all transexual. your all living as your true sex now... what does it matter how transexual you are? i dont WANT to be some 'awesome super cool primary' for lols... its not a status symbol to me... i just suffered more in a shorter period of time...
there are different degrees of transexualism. its fairly evident. Even if they dont want to admit it because it might ruin thier '->-bleeped-<- cred'
R :police:
Personally I thought the 70's was a great time and a good springboard to transitioning and experimenting.....you could wear and get away with whatever you liked. I was about 13 and had my hair really long down to my butt, wore girls purple trousers, a red Dorothy Perkins top and 3 inch platform shoes. I even went to school dressed like that and didn't get thrown out......a lot of girls thought I was a girl and I loved that.
In some ways it was much harder in the 1980's and 1990's when male and female fashion was far more clearly defined and seperated. That was the time period in my mid 20's which I aimed to transition which I personally thought was the hardest time of my life.....
It's a bit easier these days with the internet and general practitioners being made more aware of gender dysphoria but it's still no easy ride no matter what era you grow up in or transition in...
Ah, oysters ... love 'em, especially on the half-shell with cocktail sauce and something spicy added, or just really spicy cocktail sauce! *smile*
These threads always grow like topsy. Nothing like maintaining one's own validity. Of course, doing that in a thread that basically asks that we assert we are "not like that" is heading for recrimination. And the less assured someone is who reads this, the more activated becomes their intolerance for difference. The easier it is to set up others to be "not quite like me" and that normally means someone gets hurt in turn.
Do I think there are different levels of intensity of the feeling we discover, sometime or another, in our lives that mean some never undergo any surgery, only dress? That others have surgeries, as many as they can afford, very early, that some never start hrt yet are blessed, at least for a while, with "passable" looks and builds, that others, try as they might, never quite make that passable level and tend to be discarded by others or used by others as examples of "what not to be?" Do some never get bottom, or top surgery, but maintain their TSism till the day they pass into some other plane?
All of the above. Yes, I do think that. It is, and we are, what it, and we, are. No amount of tearing down another, making comparisons with another's looks, style, choices can make me one iota more real than I allow myself to be anyway.
I think Nero's question was placed as an attempt to discover something about himself; most of our questions are. It doesn't seem like he tossed a Molotov Cocktail just to see how big the fire would get. And he should be able to ask questions like that without my getting so activated with comparisons that I just have to insist on my own superiority.
If that superiority were there to begin with, I suspect it would be evident to all without my having to shove it under everyone's noses. Instead, what I imagine I do in such a situation is I feel, keenly, my own sense of inferiority that needs comforted and the best way I know to do so is to grab the distinction and place myself in the superior position, or at least place others in an inferior position.
I spent a lot of time early in the process of trying to be in that "real TS" or high-intensity group. I didn't really need to bother though. My life was what it was. An early attempt to move toward transition ended in a terrifically horrid double-rape and I went totally within my own shell at 19, unsafe I KNEW, to be out because to be out was to be violated and abused for a very long period of time. I connected transition with being brutalized and helpless.
Thank Goddess that Mr. Benjamin never made that a criterion for being "high-intensity" or "real." (Ever notice how the guys avoid these threads like the plague? Ever wonder why? Maybe because they haven't been raised to feel they absolutely have to assert they are "the best?")
Yet, my dissonance would never go away, no matter how many resolves I made to be 'him.' It haunted me and in spite my efforts, within a year or two it was always eating at me. That was not safe either. At some point I realized that rape wasn't inevitable and that the world was no safer for other women than it was for me.
As I was living that life I was truly miserable and totally disconnected form others. Not a good position to be in for someone who is "a social animal," as humans are designated. Ever wonder why "Human" isn't categorized into low and high intensity models?
So, these sorts of threads can be used to discuss something that actually matters to an honest individual who really has a concern they wish to discuss. Or they can be used as one-upmanship ploys by those who just need some sense of self-efficacy one cannot seem to find in any way except by making distinctions between one self and other selves.
Anyone for oysters? *grin*
Posted on: December 20, 2007, 10:04:17 AM
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 20, 2007, 08:32:27 AM
Quote from: Nero on December 19, 2007, 11:13:12 PM
which statement?
another note. since 'primary and secondary' was brought up. i don't know that primary and secondary are the right terms, but i do strongly believe there is a difference between a woman who has always known she was a girl and a woman who wakes up one day around age 30 and thinks, 'you know i should've been a girl.'
if that is what primary and secondary means, then it is more insulting than i thought
so what terms would you use for someone who has always known and waits to transition and someone who has always known and transitions early?
your definition above does not fit that scenario.
I don't know, sweetie. I certainly didn't mean to be insulting. I'm just a weak old man.
Nevermind, I'll probably just end up locking this.
Quote from: Nero on December 19, 2007, 10:33:29 PM
*looking around for fire hydrant to douse fire he started*
Do you want a primary or secondary fire hydrant? >:D
y2g
Nero,
I think I understand. I have read a lot of your 3500+ posts and although you are sometimes stubborn and sometimes get upset with the BS you read, I just don't get the notion that you set out in an effort to start divisiveness and dissension. So, understanding that isn't a problem. Hugs.
I would imagine that the question you pose now is many-layered. Why do we do as we do? For me that is many-layered. Beating early and a rape pretty early as well and ... I simply withdrew. Bad luck I chose to be somewhere I thought was safe that turned out to be the bear's own den. So, I never undervalue the importance of experience, of being where I am and when i am in this process.
I think that social situations have a lot to do with how we behave and how our actions incline themselves. It's a pretty well-known and accepted proposition that individuals withdraw parts of ourselves from relationship when we decide that to accept and live into those parts will cause us loss of relationship. I know that some people will object that "I was this way from before birth." And being in relationship does not deny the intrinsic existence of GID and TSism within any individual -- socialization and relationship and its lack do moderate how we express and act-out our GID-ridden lives. Like the prevalence of clouds and rain and lack of sunlight in some geographical areas moderates how depressed or vivacious someone may be at a particular time of year.
(Excuse me if the language is too "male." I'm a therapist by trade and I speak that vocational language. If it's not "girls at the mall" there are reasons for that that have nothing to do with gender or gender expression.)
So, I think that how far we decide to go is not just an expression of how intense our understanding and feelings of somatic dissonance are. I think they are contingent on how we attempt to fit in and how we 'read' our safety in what we are willing to express, when we are willing to express that and how we express it in terms of how comfortable, or uncomfortable, we are within the relationships and interactions our lives lead us into.
Some people may have an aversion to others 'recognizing' our TSism and so we delay. Others will have experiences like mine that instill a notion of being always unsafe or that transition is just too painful to undertake. Still others, like you, will not absolutely be hell-bent on changing all of their somatic configurations as quickly as they can. Others will not want to have sex, for instance, unless their bodies completely conform to their mental diagrams of themselves. Still others will perceive that sexual relations may well be a way to obtain the somatic changes they wish for and they find no other way to earn the money fast enough to suit them.
I don't know that when we regard all those other factors that moderate our acting on our GID that there is any useful distinction in how we go about our transitions, or even (whether or not) if we transition at all. So many variables and so little ability to piece-together an understanding of how this works for everyone.
I hope that is all obscure and unintelligible enough to actually seem to make sense.
My short answer is : there are just too many factors that defy quantification to make a general "Rule" of TSism and how it plays out in the lives of anyone at all.
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on December 20, 2007, 08:48:13 AM
Quote from: Rachael on December 20, 2007, 06:19:28 AM
i think nero did raise a good point... There have been people in the 70s, this horridly nasty time you described, who came out, and transitioned,... at a young age, and other ages. Some people on here constantly remind me of how horrid it was back then, and how easy you young uns have it today... (sound familiar?) i tell you one thing, its NOT easier... not when you loose everything becuse your parents are a***holes from 'your time' I dont find anything offensive about primary and secondry... One group, come out young, and transition young, one group transition later... seriously, if you think im falsely categorising you, please tell me, if you DIDNT transition in your 30s onwards, please, let me know, so i dont miscategorise some folk... whats offensive about the truth? or is this one of those cases of 'la la la la not listening im really a teenage girl im not 40 honest' routines?
back to the topic howerver....
i do belive there are different degrees of transexualism... i found out about myself very young, and i came out, and im ft by 20 now...
i tried to commit suicide 3 times in my teens, because i was so unhappy and in pain... i literally waited as long as i could, i suffered my maximum... i would have died if i hadnt transitioned when i did.
there are people who come out young, and transition young
there are people who come out young, and transition late, or over a longer time.
there are those people who come out later, and transition later...
thier all transexual. your all living as your true sex now... what does it matter how transexual you are? i dont WANT to be some 'awesome super cool primary' for lols... its not a status symbol to me... i just suffered more in a shorter period of time...
there are different degrees of transexualism. its fairly evident. Even if they dont want to admit it because it might ruin thier '->-bleeped-<- cred'
R :police:
rachael, since you say you value honesty, i believe that you purposefully say things that can be interpreted to be spiteful and hurtful in order to stir the pot and draw attention to yourself; and then say you didnt mean anything by it. you may not find the word secondary offensive, but it has been used in an offensive manner. the point is, if a word hurts people and you know it, maybe you shouldnt use it. that is just common decency.
no one with gid has it "easy." but if you cannot admit that there are better opportunities for young people today that does make it easier to transition, then you are being disingenuous.
you are not the only one with scars on your wrists, dear.
and as i said previously, it is not your place to categorize anyone, or say whatever you want with no repercussions because you say it is "the truth"
to be honest love. i think your wrong. i dont want to cause hurt, or stir things, i speak the truth as i see it, if that offends some, then maybe they need to look at themselves a bit? i wasnt denying there are better oportunities today for young people, and older.
Dont try to suggest that all transpeople will come out in thier teens thesedays. I will place money on the fact that there will still be middleaged transitioners, you simply cannot say that will end now... there is no evidence to prove that all transpeople know from birth. Some do, some dont, i dont see how definitions that clarify groups, are offensive unless your so insecure in yourself that you find the truth upsetting.... are you not men, and women? does it MATTER when you came out, but that you are now happy?
R :police:
Can someone round up all these escaped drama llamas?
NOBODY SAID YOU WERENT REAL ash... nobody even hinted it. its almost like you WANT to be victimised... The only time real or not real has been brought up, it was you doing it...
R :police:
I don't get the whole 'primary/secondary'/'i'm true you are not' thing. It keeps coming up and coming up and coming up and it's almost comical to me at this point how it just gets recycled and recycled. The arguments are always the same...and played out mind you. It's like fishing and casting out the same bait hoping to catch some new fish or something, I don't know. I'm just incredulous that people keep visiting the topic and getting worked up over it time and time again.
I have an easy solution, don't let your complete self-definition be defined by how others in our community (if that's what we call it) and even outside of our community see us or define us. I mean, isn't the point to kind of get to this place where you are comfortable with yourself, finally? It seems tough, if not impossible, to get to the place you are trying to get too if you stay involved in topics that threaten your self definition and progress.
So, I read the forums, some mean something to me, others don't. I typically read most of them. No topics scare me, but some just don't effect me. This whole 'primary/secondary' 'where-do-i-fit-thing' just seems kind of pointless.
Oh, and I'm convinced Nero is really god sitting back and testing all of us to see how we react to things, lol. Nice job god...I mean Nero :)
Meghan
Quote from: Nero on December 19, 2007, 04:42:46 PM
Title says it all. I do believe there are degrees of transsexualism. What about you?
Note: If you just want to argue about the relevance of this discussion, we've heard it all before. This is a serious inquiry into the degrees of our condition.
There are transgender persons that don't think hormones and surgery is necessary for them to live in desired role...
thare are transsexuals who want surgeries and hormones..
there are crossdressers whose sex and gender are aligned but they sometime want to be accepted as opposiite sex
and there are androgynous persons that feel like both genders,
and gender queer persons that are beyond gender...
of course...
Transsexuality is connected with our body,when mind-software and body-hardware are not compatibile
for some,that sense of transsexuality came from other people they noticed that u act socially like opposite gender(I'm talking abouyt mind here,not body-sex)_ BUT FOR MOST that sense is deep within ourselves...we feel like opposite sex even if our behaviour is not so macho(for FTMs) or femme (for mtfs). So everyone is trans on hois own way....but that desire to change body exists
Quote from: Tink on December 19, 2007, 07:42:19 PM
Quote: Different Degrees of Transsexualism
Of course. They are called primary and secondary transsexualism. There, I said it! :P
tink :icon_chick:
There are two types of people in the world: those who divide people into two types and those who don't.
my views on the subject
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,20585.0.html
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 20, 2007, 12:55:28 PM
Quote from: Tink on December 19, 2007, 07:42:19 PM
Quote: Different Degrees of Transsexualism
Of course. They are called primary and secondary transsexualism. There, I said it! :P
tink :icon_chick:
There are two types of people in the world: those who divide people into two types and those who don't.
i heard there were two types of binary code... i wonder which one feels fake?
i mean TWO???
thats like, SO offensive and discriminatory...
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 20, 2007, 01:21:20 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 20, 2007, 12:55:28 PM
There are two types of people in the world: those who divide people into two types and those who don't.
i heard there were two types of binary code... i wonder which one feels fake?
i mean TWO???
thats like, SO offensive and discriminatory...
R :police:
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who undersand binary and those who don't.
just to be contrary here. but this topic isnt about androgyne, and other buttoholes... its TRANSEXUALITY... which surely is a binary topic... m2f, f2m... what i wonder about is, why is it so bad to use labels? surely they are only there to help understanding? to categorise? if you dont want a label, get out of the way of the guy with the price gun!
R :police:
Quote from: Valentina on December 19, 2007, 05:20:46 PM
it'd be naive of people to think that there aren't types. Dr. Harry Benjamin himself classified transsexualism into different groups and subtypes. I'm a
diagnosed type VI.
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm
Group 1
Type I Pseudo TV
Type II Fetishistic TV
Type III True TV
Group 2
Type IV TS, Nonsurgical
Group 3
Type V TS, Moderate intensity
Type VI TS, High intensity
My transsexualism goes up to XI
Boy do I agree with Rachael, for as long as one is living in this finite reality it is necessary to categorize what is not quantifiable by our limited minds. Cindy climbs back under her rock and all that can be discerned are two little beady eyes blinking in the darkness from beneath the rock.
Cindy
After 4 pages I'll repeat what I said on page one:
QuoteClassification systems belong on the trash heap of history. They have only caused trouble, frustration and pain for us.
The focus should be on
people and making their lives better, not on nomenclature!
Quote from: Rachael on December 20, 2007, 02:52:29 PM
just to be contrary here. but this topic isnt about androgyne, and other buttoholes... its TRANSEXUALITY... which surely is a binary topic... m2f, f2m... what i wonder about is, why is it so bad to use labels? surely they are only there to help understanding? to categorise? if you dont want a label, get out of the way of the guy with the price gun!
R :police:
No, I disagree. If there are, say, three genders: male, female, androgyne. Then a transsexual can be MtoF, MtoA, FtoM, MtoA, AtoF, or AtoM.
But most are just themselves.
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 20, 2007, 03:33:41 PM
Quote from: Rachael on December 20, 2007, 02:52:29 PM
just to be contrary here. but this topic isnt about androgyne, and other buttoholes... its TRANSEXUALITY... which surely is a binary topic... m2f, f2m... what i wonder about is, why is it so bad to use labels? surely they are only there to help understanding? to categorise? if you dont want a label, get out of the way of the guy with the price gun!
R :police:
No, I disagree. If there are, say, three genders: male, female, androgyne. Then a transsexual can be MtoF, MtoA, FtoM, MtoA, AtoF, or AtoM.
trans gender, yes, transexual? NO...
there are but two sexes. MALE, and FEMALE,
androgynes can be transgender that, is not at question. also, how can anyone be A to anything? surely thats an endpoint, as people are raised either male or female..
and why the hell does my post have 'buttholes' in? i never said that or anything like that! :o
also, wtf is walmart 101?
R :police:
Rachael, coming back on a thing you said earlier, you said,
I speak truth and if people can't deal with it, maybe they should look
at themselves. Well, ever heard of empathy? To have a meaningfull
conversation, you've got to understand the many point of views and
context others are coming from. If not, you're talking in the desert
and nobody can understand or care about what you say.
At the base, I come back to the FACT (one of the only ones mentioned in this thread)
that all classification system of TS are very weakly supported by empirical evidence,
and thus all theories are unsupported. Not surprising since TS have been studied
mostly by hacks in the last 40 years!! The amount of money spent on us is infinitely
small compared to the immense diversity of our community.
That's someplace we should start from from,
a common ground. If you, or anyone else, believes the opposite, that
all has been settle and there is a definite classification system, of course its
impossible to run a conversation because we're all talking past each other.
Also, "because it feels right" is a basis for moral classification rather than a semantic one.
Quote from: Rachael on December 20, 2007, 03:52:19 PM
also, wtf is walmart 101?
R :police:
It's a way to try to shame and humiliate. To deny any validity to what someone else said. What followed that is an unnecessarily dense quotation from Immanuel Kant that was supposed, no doubt, to heighten that effect.
In America, and I suspect other places too, it's a way to put someone in their place and to shut down conversation.
But, as Keira points out that is already done anyhow.
Quote from: Rachael on December 20, 2007, 02:52:29 PM
just to be contrary here. ... its TRANSEXUALITY... which surely is a binary topic... m2f, f2m... what i wonder about is, why is it so bad to use labels?
Kiera replied
Quote
Rachael, (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.deltaxchange.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fhug.gif&hash=f5e26e76cb881b97ef05247b551a2a9e434d29dd) aside from being beautifully true to form (consistency is helpful!) what did you major in? Wal_Mart 101?
LOL BTW it's TRANSSEXUALITY.
Quote from: Keira on December 20, 2007, 04:09:25 PM
At the base, I come back to the FACT (one of the only ones mentioned in this thread)
that all classification system of TS are very weakly supported by empirical evidence,
and thus all theories are unsupported. Not surprising since TS have been studied
mostly by hacks in the last 40 years!! The amount of money spent on us is infinitely
small compared to the immense diversity of our community.
Exactly. And it seems like people are using different scales on the degrees of being TS.
* the age of transition
* the age of first having GID
* the age when first had problems due to GID
* the amount of GID
* the amount of suffering due to GID [this is quite different from the amount of GID]
* what kind of GID is it? which combination of physical, social, ...
Is there any point in the classification? Would the categorization have any positive effects?
i cant find the post you refer to kiera, sometimes i write a post, go away, come back, find it lagged, repost and find 2-5 people posted again, and i loose track.
And to those who would prefer a categoryless society: sorry, it doesnt work, we need definitions to speed things up, to ease communication, and to generally organise. with no organisation, there is no society.
Life in the world, or make your own imo.
R :police:
Quote from: taru on December 20, 2007, 04:39:19 PM
Exactly. And it seems like people are using different scales on the degrees of being TS.
* the amount of GID
* the amount of suffering due to GID [this is quite different from the amount of GID]
* what kind of GID is it? which combination of physical, social, ...
For me, it's definitely more wanting to be seen as the gender I am than a profound need for GRS, thus the social aspect is more important to me than the physical. Not that I haven't also felt considerable angst over that aspect.
y2g
Wow!
Just read all that happen today on this thread. I was shaking my head as I could see both side not really connecting and being hurt.
I feel the hurt on both side and poor Nero who feels sadden by what happen to his honest intentions to ask a heart felt question. And I want to say if I hurt anyone with my postings that I am sorry.
Nero I'm sorry for anything that I posted that cause this to happen to the thread.
There enough hurt in this world already and exspecailly if we are TS. Let help each other, yes be straight but be kind about it.
:'(
Jillieann
Quote from: Rachael on December 20, 2007, 04:43:59 PMAnd to those who would prefer a categoryless society: sorry, it doesnt work, we need definitions to speed things up, to ease communication, and to generally organize. with no organization, there is no society.
Life in the world, or make your own imo.
To clarify my point: I'm not against classifications in general, but in our case they have only led to trouble. For example in the 70's people had to lie to fit the stereotypes required of early gender programs. Lots of honest people were denied treatment because they didn't fit into the classification system of the time. Then there are tons of stories of individual therapists doing essentially the same thing. One could even go so far as to argue that our past oppression was as a result of these classification systems, there abuse and the resulting stigmatization.
What I am arguing for is more focus on the transitioner and less on the stupid labels and their accompanying stereotypes. Maybe you need to bone up a bit on our history. "How Sex Changed" by Joanne Meyerwitz is a good primer. Things have gotten much better, but some people still focus too much on labels and stereotypes. Patient centered care is the way to go.
And it goes on.
Rachael, you built a straw argument there.
Refusing to accept one category doesn't assume anything
about other categories, or semantic definitions.
And also, for categories to work, they've got to be agreed on.
If they're based on your own feelings, well that's not a category.
I'd be happy Rachael if you could actually read what is said,
rather to answer on what you wish was said... :icon_blink:
Jilieann,
I predicted this mayhem very early.
This subject ALWAYS leads to hurt feelings.
I wish people had more empathy
and logic (seems contradictory, but it isn't).
im sortof confused, after reading Kieras post, and the rest of this, WTF IS THE PROBLEM...? we dont need this to turn into another primary secondery debate, i cant honestly remember how it came up now >< but what is its relevance ?
ARE THERE DEGREES OF TRANSEXUALITY? AND GID?
personally, yes there are , there are those more aflicted with gid, and those less so, there are people who transition further than others, non ops etc dont get grs... some dont get hrt, so what is the debate about?
primary: transitioned pre 32
secondery: transitioned after 32
is my understanding of the statements, nowhere does it qualify whos better, whose worse, or any sort of statistic. if your age bothers you, well sorry, you cant change that, nomatter how offended you get...
R :police:
That's not the definition of secondary VS primary.
These words are LOADED with very bad feelings and unsupported
allegations. They should not be used for this reason.
Why not just say transitioned at age X.
Why is the before or after someone else so important.
Both secondary/primary and late/early transitioner,
make it a centerpiece in defining motivatiojn when
again there is little evidence either way.
I've locked this topic on request.
And because the arguments go round and round and round.