This is more for FTM's in the US of A.
So, Federal law will have to be changed I think. If someone goes from Female to Male with all the bells and whistles, should they be required to register for the Draft?
Sadly, I'm or was a "draft evader" as they would never let me register and I so wanted a draft card.
So, what do you think?
I think everyone should have to register for selective service. Men, women, trans men, trans women, gays, lesbians and so on. There are many more MOSs than just Infantry. But the US is a volunteer military country and unless Crap Hits the Fan in a really bad way no one will ever be drafted. Vietnam was the last time anyone was drafted. After 911 people were signing up left and right.
What I worry about is after 16 years and multiple deployments in bad areas, the military is battle weary and fatigued. 16 years and WW2 was from 41 to 45. The Korean Conflict was how many years? M*A*S*H Lasted longer on TV. Vietnam was how long?
It is possible that if something happens they may have to reinstate a draft. That should include everyone. Not everyone has to be on the front lines fighting. It takes a lot more than the Infantry to win a war or battle.
I'm a Brit and I dunno if we have half a military to get drafted into after the budget cuts, even if we were lol.
Sure hope we hurry up and Brexit and avoid that "EU army" crap they're scheming up, though. Smells real fishy to me.
But er.... I think if "equality" means equality then everyone fit enough gets drafted, eh? Men, women, trans men, trans women. Not that I agree with forcing people into it, mind. But that's what real equality would mean.
Quote from: Kylo on March 20, 2018, 05:40:38 PM
I'm a Brit and I dunno if we have half a military to get drafted into after the budget cuts, even if we were lol.
Sure hope we hurry up and Brexit and avoid that "EU army" crap they're scheming up, though. Smells real fishy to me.
I can only imagine :)
Israel has the IDF and requires all citizens, male and female to serve. I think it's two years but they're surrounded by people who want to destroy them.
Makes sense from Israel's perspective. And if I wanted to be an Israeli citizen then I guess I'd be ok with the requirement. Other countries like ours don't have that sense of duty, necessity or cultural cohesion so much so I doubt it'll be happening here soon unless there's some major crisis.
Quote from: Kylo on March 20, 2018, 05:49:23 PM
Makes sense from Israel's perspective. And if I wanted to be an Israeli citizen then I guess I'd be ok with the requirement. Other countries like ours don't have that sense of duty, necessity or cultural cohesion so much so I doubt it'll be happening here soon unless there's some major crisis.
Sadly, the S88T tends to hit the fan every 50 to 100 years. Technology is a scary thing nowadays too.
Probably because successive generations forget the value fought for, or maybe a serious economic slump will trigger it. When I was a kid I thought we'd learned something from WW1 and 2. Now it looks like a lot of people learned bugger all and we're going to end up going through it all again. Only with drones and robots and possibly nukes.
Why they stopped teaching Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four in school here is anyone's guess. It's more relevant than ever.
Quote from: Kylo on March 20, 2018, 06:05:34 PM
Probably because successive generations forget the value fought for, or maybe a serious economic slump will trigger it. When I was a kid I thought we'd learned something from WW1 and 2. Now it looks like a lot of people learned bugger all and we're going to end up going through it all again. Only with drones and robots and possibly nukes.
Why they stopped teaching Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four in school here is anyone's guess. It's more relevant than ever.
Big Brother and Room 22 wasn't?! I never read the book but we had the play in junior high school and I saw a number of movie makes of it.
People have very very very short attention spans. And what screws up politics here as far as I'm concerned is a terrible politician can screw up badly and wait a few years and a new generation of voters comes in with no idea of the person's track-record.
Quote from: Cassi on March 20, 2018, 05:21:13 PM
This is more for FTM's in the US of A.
So, Federal law will have to be changed I think. If someone goes from Female to Male with all the bells and whistles, should they be required to register for the Draft?
Sadly, I'm or was a "draft evader" as they would never let me register and I so wanted a draft card.
So, what do you think?
They are required to register with selective service if over the age of 18. What law needs changing?
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 20, 2018, 06:26:55 PM
They are required to register with selective service if over the age of 18. What law needs changing?
https://www.susans.org/forums/Smileys/susans/kiss.gif
It was more of a question than a statement, or rather it was my intent. Point being, let's say I was born a girl but was allowed to be a boy growing up and given the necessary medical treatment to be a male, would I be required to register for the draft when I turn 18?
Hypothetical (wow I speeled it right) question.
Of course, male is male and all males must register.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 20, 2018, 06:32:14 PM
Of course, male is male and all males must register.
I never registered because I was in before 18. And my question wasn't a trick one and I hadn't googled it to now. So, I'm pasting what the Selective Service says:
THE SELECTIVE SERVICE
American citizens and resident aliens aged eighteen through twenty-five who were assigned male at birth are required to register with the Selective Service System. This registration is used to keep an updated database of potential service members in case a draft were to be reintroduced. As it stands, all citizens whose birth assigned sex was male must register within thirty days of their eighteenth birthday. Failure to do so is punishable by up to five years in prison and $250,000 in fines, though individuals have rarely been prosecuted. Applications for federal financial aid for higher education, federal employment, United States citizenship and other government benefits have been made contingent upon Selective Service registration in order to encourage compliance. Therefore, when applying for government benefits, transgender people can often face particular difficulties in regards to their Selective Service registration status.
This now poses the question just the opposite of what it was. I was born a boy but am a transgender woman and have completed all SRS, etc., And I'm 20 years old. What happens to me in regards to the law?
Okay, I'll stand corrected, it did not say that the last time I was on their site. The language has apparently been amended.
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 20, 2018, 06:37:28 PM
Okay, I'll stand corrected, it did not say that the last time I was on their site. The language has apparently been amended.
Hugs, Devlyn
No prob, sometimes I say things like the Columbo. Don't make much sense at the beginning, but hopefully does at the end. :)
Can you show us where you got that? I'm looking at a different wording on the selective service site that doesn't include "assigned male at birth"
Hugs, Devlyn
Here's the rest of it:
FOR FEMALE TO MALE (FTM) INDIVIDUALS
People who were assigned female at birth are not required to register with the Selective Service regardless of their current gender or transition status. When applying for federal financial aid, grants, and loans as a man, however, you may be asked to prove that you are exempt. To request a Status Information Letter (SIL) that shows you are exempt, you can either download an SIL request form from the Selective Service website (http://www.sss.gov/PDFs/SilForm_Instructions.pdf) or call them at 1-888-655-1825. This service is free and the exemption letter you will receive does not specify why you are exempt so it will not force you to out yourself in any other application process. The Selective Service does, however, require a copy of your birth certificate showing your birth-assigned sex. If the sex on your birth certificate has been changed, attach any documentation you have to that affect. Once you receive your Status Information Letter, keep it in your files. For those FTM people who transition before their eighteenth birthdays and change their birth certificates, it is also possible to register with the service. However, no one may register after their twenty-sixth birthday. Also, please note that although Selective Service materials refer to transgender people as "people who have had a sex change," their policies apply to those who have transitioned regardless of surgical history.
FOR MALE TO FEMALE (MTF) INDIVIDUALS
People who were assigned male at birth are required to register with the Selective Service within thirty days of their eighteenth birthday. This includes those who may have transitioned before or since then. The Selective Service uses Social Security and other databases to determine who they believe was assigned male at birth. As of now, it is unclear whether transgender people are eligible for military service, but you are required to register nonetheless, and this is necessary to gain access to certain government benefits.
NAME CHANGES AND THE SELECTIVE SERVICE
People who are assigned male at birth and who are required to register are also required to inform the Selective Service of any legal name change or change in other record information such as address up until your twenty-sixth birthday. This does not include change of gender as the Selective Service policy is entirely based on birth-assigned sex. For transwomen and others who were assigned male at birth and have registered with the Selective Service, notification of a name change is legally required within ten days.
To update your records, fill out the Change Of Information Form attached to the Registration Acknowledgement Card with your new name. Alternatively, you can fill out a Change of Information Form called SSS Form 2, which you can obtain at any United States Post Office or U.S. Embassy or Consulate abroad. You may also change your information with the Selective Service by letter. In the letter, include your full name, Social Security Number, Selective Service Number, date of birth, current mailing address and new name. With any of these three methods, you must attach official documentation of your name change and mail it to the Selective Service. Updates take four to six weeks, after which you will be mailed a new acknowledgement card.
People who are required to register:
All U.S. citizens assigned male at birth (including transwomen) and born after December 31, 1959, who are 18 but not yet 26 years old
National Guardsmen and Reservists not on active duty
Cadets at the Merchant Marine Academy
Delayed Entry Program enlistees
ROTC Students
People who have left Active Military Service for any reason before age 26
Men rejected for enlistment for any reason before age 26
Civil Air Patrol members
Immigrants with permanent resident status
Immigrants with I-688 special (seasonal) agricultural worker status
Refugee and parolee immigrants and immigrants seeking asylum
Undocumented immigrants
Dual national U.S. citizens
People with disabilities who spend time in public with or without assistance
Residents of Puerto Rico, Guam, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and Northern Mariana Islands Citizens of American Samoa, Republic of the Marshall Islands and the Federated States of Micronesia only if they are habitual residents of the United States (habitual residency is presumed when one resides in the United States for more than one year in any status, except as a student or employee of the government of his homeland)
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 20, 2018, 06:42:57 PM
Can you show us where you got that? I'm looking at a different wording on the selective service site that doesn't include "assigned male at birth"
Hugs, Devlyn
https://transequality.org/issues/resources/selective-service-and-transgender-people
The point I was trying to make in a roundabout way is that if I was born male and raised to "my" gender of being female, according to what I read, I would still be required to register for the draft or face that very large fine.
To me, the law in itself either needs to be changed, or preferably transgender persons of either sex be allowed to serve without the BS that's currently going on.
I'm more than happy to admit I'm wrong, but it appears that is what the writers on Transequality say, but it isn't what Selective Service says. We need to present the facts clearly for our members. Here's the Selective Service link.
https://www.sss.gov
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 20, 2018, 06:51:59 PM
I'm more than happy to admit I'm wrong, but it appears that is what the writers on Transequality say, but it isn't what Selective Service says. We need to present the facts clearly for our members. Here's the Selective Service link.
https://www.sss.gov
TRANSGENDER PEOPLE
Individuals who are born female and changed their gender to male are not required to register. U.S. citizens or immigrants who are born male and changed their gender to female are still required to register.
OPM notes that "transgender" refers to people whose gender identity and/or expression is different from the sex assigned to them at birth (e.g. the sex listed on an original birth certificate). The OPM Guidance further explains that the term "transgender woman" typically is used to refer to someone who was assigned the male sex at birth but who identifies as a female. Likewise, OPM provides that the term "transgender man" typically is used to refer to someone who was assigned the female sex at birth but who identifies as male.
NOTE: Transgender students are welcome to contact Selective Service regarding their registration requirements if they are unclear about how they should answer Question 21 or Question 22 on the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA), or need a status information letter from Selective Service that clarifies whether or not they are exempt from the registration requirement. This can be done by calling our Registration Information Office on 1-888-655-1825. Individuals who have changed their gender to male will be asked to complete a request form for a status information letter and provide a copy of their birth certificate. One exemption letter may be used in multiple school financial aid processes.
This info came from:
https://www.sss.gov/Registration-Info/Who-Registration
I do indeed stand corrected. :)
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 20, 2018, 07:09:35 PM
I do indeed stand corrected. :)
No problem Miss Devyl!
I just feel it's an opening to either stop discrimination because it is written and understood, or change the law.
Thank you all for your comments :)
Quote from: Kylo on March 20, 2018, 06:05:34 PM
Probably because successive generations forget the value fought for, or maybe a serious economic slump will trigger it. When I was a kid I thought we'd learned something from WW1 and 2. Now it looks like a lot of people learned bugger all and we're going to end up going through it all again. Only with drones and robots and possibly nukes.
Why they stopped teaching Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four in school here is anyone's guess. It's more relevant than ever.
Yes, I thought we had too, which is partly why I find Brexit so horrifying.
Quote from: Cassi on March 20, 2018, 05:46:41 PM
I can only imagine :)
Israel has the IDF and requires all citizens, male and female to serve. I think it's two years but they're surrounded by people who want to destroy them.
That's not true. Israel's largest border (if you don't count it's occupied territories) is with Jordan which has expressed no such wish. Israel is run by a coalition headed by Likud whose founding charter rules out a two state solution, is a party that shelters virulent racists, and is headed up by a man who poured petrol onto a fire leading up to Rabin's assassination.
It also doesn't require all citizens to serve - the ultra orthodox are exempt, which is a contentious point for secular citizens and an increasingly acute problem. Attempts to overturn this have always met with resistance from the Hasidic parties the secular right wing relies on to stay in power.
Quote from: alex82 on March 21, 2018, 07:29:06 AM
That's not true. Israel's largest border (if you don't count it's occupied territories) is with Jordan which has expressed no such wish. Israel is run by a coalition headed by Likud whose founding charter rules out a two state solution, is a party that shelters virulent racists, and is headed up by a man who poured petrol onto a fire leading up to Rabin's assassination.
It also doesn't require all citizens to serve - the ultra orthodox are exempt, which is a contentious point for secular citizens and an increasingly acute problem. Attempts to overturn this have always met with resistance from the Hasidic parties the secular right wing relies on to stay in power.
I stand corrected then. Those who I know from there told me otherwise :)
Sorry I got lost so what's the final answer re transgender?
We have the 2nd amendment which includes most all adults the only service me and mine would ever register for is a war fought on US soii as in ie: The Walking Dead!
Lol Live right next door to Senoia GA!
Someone mentioned brexit. I might sign to defend England it depends am proud of them!
Face "fines" everyday running overweight down the highway am more concerned about who I could actually kill!
Sent from my LG-M150 using Tapatalk
Quote from: Kiera on March 21, 2018, 01:06:25 PM
Sorry I got lost so what's the final answer re transgender?
We have the 2nd amendment which includes most all adults the only service me and mine would ever register for is a war fought on US soii as in ie: The Walking Dead!
Lol Live right next door to Senoia GA!
Someone mentioned brexit. I might sign to defend England it depends am proud of them!
Face "fines" everyday running overweight down the highway am more concerned about who I could actually kill!
Sent from my LG-M150 using Tapatalk
United States Selective Service law dictates that if you were born female and trans to male you are not required to register. If you were born male and trans to female you are required to register or face a $250,000 fine.
Quote from: Cassi on March 21, 2018, 11:06:26 AM
I stand corrected then. Those who I know from there told me otherwise :)
Easy enough to visit or research, or both. Those are the facts. I don't know why knowing a few locals would change that - here in this thread you have two British people with diametrically opposed views to Brexit and related matters. One seems to think it's great, I on the other hand think it's a disaster area and no surprise that only Putin, Trump, and Islamic State were the international entities that allied themselves with it.
It's no different from many countries on having a right wing and a left wing, and that depends on the speaker and the audience. Americans do seem to get the right wing narrative, resulting in the latest mess with the embassy and defiance of carefully balanced norms. As Netanyahu himself said, the US is unusually pliable and credulous - and that works for his very right wing policies that you take the international flak and pay the financial price for.
Quote from: Kiera on March 21, 2018, 01:06:25 PM
Sorry I got lost so what's the final answer re transgender?
We have the 2nd amendment which includes most all adults the only service me and mine would ever register for is a war fought on US soii as in ie: The Walking Dead!
Lol Live right next door to Senoia GA!
Someone mentioned brexit. I might sign to defend England it depends am proud of them!
Face "fines" everyday running overweight down the highway am more concerned about who I could actually kill!
Sent from my LG-M150 using Tapatalk
Sorry, what? What's that about? You obviously don't know anything about it.
Quote from: Cassi on March 21, 2018, 01:34:27 PM
Not sure who you were reflecting the last comment to?
No, not you - the person going on about Brexit in relation to highways and running while overweight and being proud of England (which isn't even the state in question - it's one constituent part of it).
Quote from: Cassi on March 21, 2018, 01:08:53 PM
United States Selective Service law dictates that if you were born female and trans to male you are not required to register. If you were born male and trans to female you are required to register or face a $250,000 fine.
You learn something new every day round here. I wonder why women aren't required to register? What's the reasoning behind that?
Quote from: alex82 on March 21, 2018, 06:41:37 AM
Yes, I thought we had too, which is partly why I find Brexit so horrifying.
I'm not sure why you find it so horrifying. We signed up to the EEC, not Junker's private funland. Currently people like him get to do whatever they like and dictate what my country has to allow
without being accountable in any way whatsoever to me, a voter. That is fundamentally un-democratic and I don't want any part of it. This political union has gone far enough. Now they want an army and to change the demographics of nations and do as they will with those nations' resources without their say. No thanks. We can have an economic pact with the EU without them dictating what we do, which was
supposed to be the plan in the first place. They've lost their way.
Quote from: alex82 on March 21, 2018, 01:32:37 PM
Sorry, what? What's that about? You obviously don't know anything about it.
It took me a second or two to comprehend what you were referring to, lol.
I don't know much about the UK armed forces other than a little on the Royal Marines having spent 12 years in the United States Marines and I found out a few months back that my great great great (and maybe great again) grandfather was a member of the King's Rifles which I didn't even know we had English ancestors.
However, my sister insists that we are related to the great Scotish Poet Robert Burns but he was quite active from what I hear :)
Quote from: alex82 on March 21, 2018, 01:38:39 PM
You learn something new every day round here. I wonder why women aren't required to register? What's the reasoning behind that?
At the risk of getting in trouble, I think there's a deep seated belief in many that women shouldn't be in the military here in the US. More likely has to do with continuing the species I would think. Again, I mean no disrespect or insult, but if as many women fought and died in the wars that humanity has fought, our species probably wouldn't be as large???????
Quote from: Kylo on March 21, 2018, 01:38:47 PM
I'm not sure why you find it so horrifying. We signed up to the EEC, not Junker's private funland. Currently people like him get to do whatever they like without being accountable in any way whatsoever to me, a voter. That is fundamentally un-democratic and don't want any part of such a political union.
They don't though - he's accountable to an elected senate, which we were a full part of. He won't be there forever - another country's representative will be leading - it could've been one of ours. By the way, the UKIP MEP's we sent to parliament were barely there - Farage turned up for one meeting in 70. He has one of the very lowest attendance rates, as do the rest of them on that side. How do you remove our head of state by the way? You don't. She is above elections and has been in post since 1952. Now I quite like her, but it's hardly the peak of democracy if you want to compare it to the EU as a whole.
Of every vote in the European Parliament or the directives from The Senate, the UK got its way 97% of the time. That's really not bad going in a cooperative endeavour.
I'm horrified because it's the largest and richest trading block in existence, with freedoms to live work, be educated, and retire in 28 countries. It has extremely high social security nets in general, and the very highest standards when it comes to human rights.
I'm horrified because it is a grand cultural project with fine aims that has been lied about by the Murdoch press and the Daily Mail. I'm horrified because they along with its other supporters and financial backers are no friends to LGBT people. I'm horrified because of the damage done to international standing.
I'm horrified because London is at the crossroads of the world and is the major global centre, partly because of passporting rights into the largest and most cosmopolitan free trade area that's ever existed, and that's been placed at serious risk.
I'm horrified because of the cuts that have had to be made for yet another extended period (and the billions made available within hours of the vote count to steady the Bank of England) by a government in such crisis it's overwhelmed by an impossible and harmful policy. I'm horrified that the EMA and the banking regulator pulled those jobs this year, just as they told us they would do - and Brexiters said they were bluffing.
I'm horrified that we are being represented by seriously corrupt liars, many of whom have already been sacked. Some others have been brought back after sacking for previous very serious corruption.
I'm horrified because there isn't one EU rule that causes us harm. We had opt outs from Schengen and hence had border controls in place -you have to go through passport control every time you re-enter the UK, and we had an opt out from the Eurozone. Not that it matters anymore because the £ has crashed since the vote, so import costs gave rocketed and and companies have already gone out of business or are shifting operations.
I'm horrified that Trump, Putin, and IS alone thought it was a good idea, because none of them want a strong or functioning EU. I'm horrified at the impact on the higher education system, on the NHS, on food standards. I'm horrified that judges in the supreme court simply doing their constitutional jobs have been branded traitors by right wing newspapers who've tried to muck spread about their sex lives. In horrified that people like Gina Miller have police protection after death threats - presumably entirely credible ones considering the murder of an MP by a Brexit supporting fascist.
I'm horrified that my grandfathers generation who achieved peace and prosperity in Western Europe, and raised their kids to double down on that, have been betrayed by misinformation from tax evaders, and churned out by right wing groups.
I'm horrified about the precarious implications for Northern Ireland, and equally horrified that Scotland and Gibraltar as constituent parts are being ignored, and their devolved parliaments being sidelined despite the wishes and huge remain votes in those parts of the U.K. England (minus London, and the other progressive cities and counties) and Wales have potentially risked the integrity of the U.K. - on the basis of largely false information, and it's very sad.
An EU army would need to be approved by each member state - it wasn't going to be. I think that's a shame because a common response, and the nuclear capabilities of the UK and France combined would be something. This week we see again how Brexit has isolated the UK - Putins mob running amok with chemical weapons. Not for the first time. That's the cold reality.
Quote from: Cassi on March 21, 2018, 01:42:20 PM
At the risk of getting in trouble, I think there's a deep seated belief in many that women shouldn't be in the military here in the US. More likely has to do with continuing the species I would think. Again, I mean no disrespect or insult, but if as many women fought and died in the wars that humanity has fought, our species probably wouldn't be as large???????
That's a shame and prejudiced of a policy to reduce women to hyothetical biological functions that the individual may not be interested in using. That's almost Saudi style policing of women, of outdated and not working gender roles, and of women's bodies.
Women make good warriors wherever used - they have throughout history. The Soviets fended off the Nazis successfully with legions of women troops. There are many other examples.
Times, they are a chang'n!
Quote from: Cassi on March 21, 2018, 01:38:59 PM
It took me a second or two to comprehend what you were referring to, lol.
I don't know much about the UK armed forces other than a little on the Royal Marines having spent 12 years in the United States Marines and I found out a few months back that my great great great (and maybe great again) grandfather was a member of the King's Rifles which I didn't even know we had English ancestors.
However, my sister insists that we are related to the great Scotish Poet Robert Burns but he was quite active from what I hear :)
If it's your thing, it's easy online and quite addictive to find out - reliable English birth marriage and death records tend to go back to the mid 16th century. Scottish to a century later in general. He may not have been English - there are different constituent parts of the UK. It's like a Californian is also an American who lives in the USA - they're just not from Wisconsin, or the other states. A Scot is also a British person who lives in the UK - they're just not from England, or the other parts.
Quote from: alex82 on March 21, 2018, 02:14:20 PM
If it's your thing, it's easy online and quite addictive to find out - reliable English birth marriage and death records tend to go back to the mid 16th century. Scottish to a century later in general.
Thanks! I got into genealogy a few years back. A wealth of information on my paternal side being from Germany/Prussia and blue bloodies :)
My paternal grandmother had the English bloodline.
On the maternal side, always believed they were mostly native american but again, it was my sister who insists on the Scotish heritage.
On the maternal side,
I remember what the EU used to be and it's essentially attempting political hegemony at this point. Why does it think it needs an army, exactly? Why does it want millions of migrants from the third world to come in specifically and turns away migrants from places like Ukraine? Why does it insist on free movement as part of the trade deal?
Political hegemony and to depress wages and up the competition for employment. I've watched it myself over the last 20 years, watched the situation go from it being easy to get any sort of low level job to practically impossible because for every job going there's 100 people applying, and more than half of them will probably have applied from Europe. That the average 'liberal' person thinks this situation has improved their lot is amazing. It's improved the government's lot, it's improved the lot of employers who don't want to employ Brits particularly, but for the next generation their lot hasn't improved, unless they look forward to a future traipsing across Europe looking for anything they can get just like the Eastern Europeans have to. You're telling me this rule doesn't cause any harm? You should look more closely. Or are you one of those people who lives in a gated community and not next to a sink estate, competing with 100 other people for every crap job that comes up? Because they're the only people who think all this is wonderful. You're telling me the EU rules haven't decimated things like our fishing industry? Or the EU rules over the migrant crisis haven't caused escalating crime, rape, social tension and mis-management of the situation elsewhere in Europe? You don't just import millions of people into another country or threaten that country's population with fines and sanctions if they don't, like they're doing to the Visegrad, and expect no resistance.
I used to support the EU but no longer will because ultimately the only ones benefiting greatly here are the large corporations and the political elite, dressing their greed up in "humanitarianism" and claiming anyone who doesn't agree with all this is a racist. The rest of us have to look forward to the unfolding of the absolute mess they have created, and an abysmal job market with wages to match. And I'm not sure the Euro currency itself was a successful financial experiment at this point, are you? Poorer European countries are eager to sign up for the $$$ they will get but what they will actually get is a shafting when big EU companies move in and start hacking up their forests and hauling them off to Austria like they do in Romania. I think a nation should decide what it wants to do with its natural resources, not find themselves handing them over for a measly EU "paycheck". And then there's Greece, what a success. Yes, I'm sure the EU is a real powerhouse, hence the absolute hysteria among the financial class when Brexit became a real possibility.
Naturally it has its "perks" in the short-term. In the long term for the average citizen, it's a sinking ship. And that's not even scratching the surface of the insidious regulations the EU is cooking up to control free speech on social media and criticism of German policy online lately. Oh, I wonder where this could possibly all be headed?
But hey, I'm sure the populations of Italy, Poland and the UK expressing their displeasure democratically of late has nothing to do with any of that, eh.
Quote from: Cassi on March 21, 2018, 02:18:51 PM
Thanks! I got into genealogy a few years back. A wealth of information on my paternal side being from Germany/Prussia and blue bloodies :)
My paternal grandmother had the English bloodline.
On the maternal side, always believed they were mostly native american but again, it was my sister who insists on the Scotish heritage.
On the maternal side,
It's a fascinating hobby, many a happy hour spent doing that.
Quote from: Kylo on March 21, 2018, 02:19:46 PM
I remember what the EU used to be and it's essentially attempting political hegemony at this point. Why does it think it needs an army, exactly? Why does it want millions of migrants from the third world to come in specifically and turns away migrants from places like Ukraine? Why does it insist on free movement as part of the trade deal?
Political hegemony and to depress wages and up the competition for employment. I've watched it myself over the last 20 years, watched the situation go from it being easy to get any sort of low level job to practically impossible because for every job going there's 100 people applying, and more than half of them will probably have applied from Europe. That the average 'liberal' person thinks this situation has improved their lot is amazing. It's improved the government's lot, it's improved the lot of employers who don't want to employ Brits particularly, but for the next generation their lot hasn't improved, unless they look forward to a future traipsing across Europe looking for anything they can get just like the Eastern Europeans have to. You're telling me this rule doesn't cause any harm? You should look more closely. Or are you one of those people who lives in a gated community and not next to a sink estate, competing with 100 other people for every crap job that comes up? Because they're the only people who think all this is wonderful. You're telling me the EU rules haven't decimated things like our fishing industry? Or the EU rules over the migrant crisis haven't caused escalating crime, rape, social tension and mis-management of the situation elsewhere in Europe? You don't just import millions of people into another country or threaten that country's population with fines and sanctions if they don't, like they're doing to the Visegrad, and expect no resistance.
I used to support the EU but no longer will because ultimately the only ones benefiting greatly here are the large corporations and the political elite, dressing their greed up in "humanitarianism" and claiming anyone who doesn't agree with all this is a racist. The rest of us have to look forward to the unfolding of the absolute mess they have created, and an abysmal job market with wages to match.
As a social worker I work alongside a lot of serious disadvantage. I would normally resent being told I was a liberal elitist in a gated community, but that's been Brexiters stock slur for two years now.
The Visegrad countries signed up to the same common standards that we all did. They cannot expect to leave it all for Italy and Greece to handle the overcrowded boats of Africans either sinking or landing in those (the first countries they reach within the EU). The UK pulled out of funding for Frontex so we've no moral high ground to take.
Free movement works both ways. I've used it myself and hope to again. There is a serious knock on here for British higher education - currently one of the best.
If people who grew up in rich and stable social democracies, in a peaceful Union, with free health and education, cannot compete with a recently arrived migrant who can hardly speak English then they should probably look to themselves as to why they aren't succeeding at those interviews.
Ukraine is in crisis because of Russia and we are already having serious problems with Russia. Third world immigrants have run our hospitals and transport systems for decades, while sending the second generation to higher education. This country would be immeasurably poorer without the largest Indian population outside India, the largest urban Carribean population outside the Caribbean - they are fully British and have added wonderful things to this country.
The abysmal job market in some regions has been caused by neoliberal policies pursued at a national level, notably in the north of England and the midlands, and Wales, along with Spain. Those were national policies not EU ones, and they will be continuing in earnest after Brexit. Greece created it's own mess - you can't borrow hundreds of billions on the never never and then say 'sorry, we aren't paying it back'. That is a problem for Greece to resolve as the sovereign state it is.
Fishing industries - no, the EU didn't do that. It asked for quotas to prevent overfishing and the U.K. agreed. It could've refused. It as a sovereign state was allowed to handle this agreement in practice in its own way. The British fisherman chose to sell their quotas to trawlers registered in other EU countries so they could lay off the staff, sell the boat, and take a profit for doing bugger all - neoliberal capitalism (as practiced by the UK) is the culprit there - not the EU. Even Michael Goves father who was a rich fishing businessman, agrees with that and has called his sons lies out.
Edit - no I'm not convinced by the Euro as a currency and never was.
Quote from: alex82 on March 21, 2018, 02:47:18 PM
As a social worker I work alongside a lot of serious disadvantage. I would normally resent being told I was a liberal elitist in a gated community, but that's been Brexiters stock slur from two years now.
Slur?
QuoteThe Visegrad countries signed up to the same common standards that we all did. They cannot expect to leave it all for Italy and Greece to handle the overcrowded boats of Africans either sinking or landing in those (the first countries they reach within the EU). The UK pulled out of funding for Frontex so we've no moral high ground to take.
Yes they did, and if they pull out they will have to manage on their own. But if they want to pull out because they don't want a "quota" of migrants foisted on them that should be their choice.
QuoteFree movement works both ways. I've used it myself and hope to again. There is a serious knock on here for British higher education - currently one of the best.
Yes it does. Too bad with so many people getting that higher education the competition being so high as it is for the "decent paid" job afterwards most successive generations will find themselves being required to leave this country to find work.
QuoteIf people who grew up in rich and stable social democracies, in a peaceful Union, with free health and education, cannot compete with a recently arrived migrant who can hardly speak English then they should probably look to themselves as to why they aren't succeeding at those interviews.
Really. What kind of social worker are you? Let me guess. One who believes in the fabled all-conquering white privilege or something like that? Poor people in "rich" countries don't exist?
You should have been around in 70s and 80s Liverpool. Oh we had a blast pretending to be poor, jobless and disadvantaged in this rich country. Childhood poverty - what a laugh! As for me, I've obviously spent quite a few years pretending to be down and out, eh?
Where's your logic? That's a crass generalization on your part and not one I'd expect from someone who deals impartially with the disadvantaged.
A lot of smaller employers in this country favor the migrants over the natives because they know they can get "more" work out of them, as many don't know their lawful entitlements as well as we do, or they choose to waiver them to work more days and hours and so on. I've been there and seen it myself, I've worked alongside Eastern Europeans, and they do indeed get priority quite often over natives. I live in a village of 2000 people in the middle of nowhere. When I applied for a job across the street in a bar a few years back, guess who was being employed from halfway across the continent in advance despite it being a walk-in position? Yep, Polish and Bulgarians. These employers whine the moment anything threatens their supply of cheap, precarious labour. Now I worked with these economic migrants at the bar and I like them a lot, I like them more than the English bosses because they're personable and hard-working people instead of snobs. If I were them I'd do the same thing, get over here and make money while the going is good. But at the end of the day the village is full of native kids fresh out of school who need jobs too and they're all on the dole when they could be doing these jobs. Not ideal. It's happening all over. As a social worker I'm sure you must be aware of the modern day slavery problem we have in the UK as well; a farm nearby just got busted recently for housing a few hundred illegal workers in terrible conditions. Yes, I think we have a problem here as to why many native employers seem to be "favoring" foreigners, and it's nothing to do with healthy competition.
Quote
Ukraine is in crisis because of Russia and we are already having serious problems with Russia. Third world immigrants have run our hospitals and transport systems for decades, while sending the second generation to higher education. This country would be immeasurably poorer without the largest Indian population outside India, the largest urban Carribean population outside the Caribbean - they are fully British and have added wonderful things to this country.
Can you explain why refugees from Ukraine are apparently less welcome in the EU than ones from Africa or the Middle East, then? Why they get refused?
QuoteThe abysmal job market in some regions has been caused by neoliberal policies pursued at a national level, notably in the north of England and the midlands, and Wales, along with Spain. Those were national policies not EU ones, and they will be continuing in earnest after Brexit.
The migration into this country has been practically open door for the last few decades. This creates a surplus of labour and devalues it. Simple economics. Oh I know, this government and the other one has no intention of applying Brexit to the effect of restricting migration. Nobody up in the corridors of power wants an employee's market. It's the incorrect assumption of the masses that Brexit would a) not be sabotaged politically b) was anything much to do with immigration anyway.
QuoteFishing industries - no, the EU didn't do that. It asked for quotas to prevent overfishing and the U.K. agreed. It could've refused. It as a sovereign state was allowed to handle this agreement in practice in its own way. The British fisherman chose to sell their quotas to trawlers registered in other EU countries so they could lay off the staff, sell the boat, and take a profit for doing bugger all - neoliberal capitalism (as practiced by the UK) is the culprit there - not the EU.
Hmm, tell that to the Cornish people around here.
Hi Friends :police:
Time to get back on topic please
The topic of this discussion is REGISTERING FOR THE DRAFT
I did have to register as a teen but that is irrelevant now
Quote from: V M on March 21, 2018, 09:49:13 PM
Hi Friends :police:
Time to get back on topic please
The topic of this discussion is REGISTERING FOR THE DRAFT
I did have to register as a teen but that is irrelevant now
Did you get a Draft Card??????
Quote from: Kylo on March 20, 2018, 06:05:34 PM
Probably because successive generations forget the value fought for, or maybe a serious economic slump will trigger it. When I was a kid I thought we'd learned something from WW1 and 2. Now it looks like a lot of people learned bugger all and we're going to end up going through it all again. Only with drones and robots and possibly nukes.
Why they stopped teaching Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four in school here is anyone's guess. It's more relevant than ever.
Absolute Truth..
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Quote from: Cassi on March 21, 2018, 09:51:08 PM
Did you get a Draft Card??????
I did receive a reply but I don't remember very well exactly
Some kind of verification letter and a hole punched card I think
They obviously didn't like me at the Selective Service because they wouldn't give me one. I tried to register five times and each time, NO, NO, NO!!!!!
Felt soooooooooooooooooooooooo rejected!
Quote from: V M on March 21, 2018, 10:03:54 PM
I did receive a reply but I don't remember very well exactly
Some kind of verification letter and a hole punched card I think
They obviously didn't like me at the Selective Service because they wouldn't give me one. I tried to register five times and each time, NO, NO, NO!!!!!
Felt soooooooooooooooooooooooo rejected!
Quote from: Cassi on March 21, 2018, 10:09:44 PM
They obviously didn't like me at the Selective Service because they wouldn't give me one. I tried to register five times and each time, NO, NO, NO!!!!!
Felt soooooooooooooooooooooooo rejected!
Anyway the U.S. hasn't drafted since the Vietnam era but Uncle Sam likes to keep that option open
We've been able to maintain an all volunteer service for years
Last time I went to re-up I was rejected do to my age and injuries incurred
Quote from: V M on March 21, 2018, 10:19:41 PM
Anyway the U.S. hasn't drafted since the Vietnam era but Uncle Sam likes to keep that option open
We've been able to maintain an all volunteer service for years
Last time I went to re-up I was rejected do to my age and injuries incurred
I know, 70-82. But I still wanted a Draft Card. All the Kewl Guys in 11th grade at school had them. Wait a minute, 11th grade, draft card at 18? Graduated at 19?
Heck, I was cooler then them, I graduated at 17 and when they were in 11th grade I was a Corporal? and Sergeant at 19? Go figure. Never mind, they can keep their dumb draft cards :)
I was way way way cooler then them and I got to shoot people and get paid for it!
I've never really cared much about being cool other than staying hydrated and not getting burnt to a crisp
There are some aspects I would rather not discuss
Thank you
I took the oath of office into the Army when I was 17 so I never had to register for the draft.
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I don't remember how old I was but I think it was during my first or second year of highschool that I received the notification to register
I was planning to go anyway so all that got lost somewhere along the timeline of past history
LOL... Maybe I should go to Hollyweird and make a movie about it :D
Quote from: Deborah on March 21, 2018, 10:51:48 PM
I took the oath of office into the Army when I was 17 so I never had to register for the draft.
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Go for it Deb!
I had everything done when I was 16 1/2 and wanted to be sworn in on my 17th birthday but draftees were inducted the 1st of each month. So, I was swore in on the day after my birthday. Both of my 6 year Honorable Discharges on dated on my birthday - HQMC gave me two birthday presents. I had been taking extra classes so I graduated a semester early or before my Class. The day before graduating from Infantry Training was my high school graduation and my parents bugged the Marines so much that they gave me liberty from 4pm to 12am to go from Pendleton to Long Beach. Of course, I was in uniform; what we called Trops back then (khali long sleeve, tie, not cotton) and no hair, lol.
I swore in on 7 July 1977 and didn't see the outside of the Army again until the summer of 2001. Lots of things changed during that time. When I joined we were going to fight the Russians in an apocalyptic battle on the plains of Germany. When I finished we were just doing peacekeeping here and there. And then 9/11; but that was after my time.
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Quote from: Deborah on March 22, 2018, 12:04:21 AM
I swore in on 7 July 1977 and didn't see the outside of the Army again until the summer of 2001. Lots of things changed during that time. When I joined we were going to fight the Russians in an apocalyptic battle on the plains of Germany. When I finished we were just doing peacekeeping here and there. And then 9/11; but that was after my time.
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Nice adventure had you! During my day, military in general was not held in high esteem and I spent 4 1/2 active and the remainder of the 12 total was in and out of the reserves because employers weren't too supportive like they are now. And for most of the 80s things became really boring.
I think if there is another war, ala Persian gulf, vietnam or even 911, where the military will be needed, I think a draft may have to be implemented, the military is not very popular with anyone nowadays. The new generation, like the millennials, are very independent minded and will not like to be told what to do, especially with convoluting policy on tg's. I joined in 1986, right out of high school, and was conflicted out of high school, but I still joined to prove myself, 5 years. Wars have always been unpopular, except WWI and WWII.
Time will tell.
Quote from: SonadoraXVX on March 22, 2018, 12:45:19 AM
I think if there is another war, ala Persian gulf, vietnam or even 911, where the military will be needed, I think a draft may have to be implemented, the military is not very popular with anyone nowadays. The new generation, like the millennials, are very independent minded and will not like to be told what to do, especially with convoluting policy on tg's. I joined in 1986, right out of high school, and was conflicted out of high school, but I still joined to prove myself, 5 years. Wars have always been unpopular, except WWI and WWII.
Time will tell.
Very true Devil Dog!
The problem with a draft right now would be the same problem that is plaguing recruitment. Americans in general are in such poor physical condition that only a small minority are even able bodied enough to join. So of those that want to join many are disqualified. That's not my opinion but a well known and published fact. In previous eras we didn't have this issue as the general population was in much better condition and health.
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Quote from: Deborah on March 22, 2018, 01:20:23 AM
The problem with a draft right now would be the same problem that is plaguing recruitment. Americans in general are in such poor physical condition that only a small minority are even able bodied enough to join. So of those that want to join many are disqualified. That's not my opinion but a well known and published fact. In previous eras we didn't have this issue as the general population was in much better condition and health.
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From my experience of the draft from the 60s and early 70s, kinda think of the Bill Murray movie Stripes. That along with "Jail or Military" options coming back. Cold hard fact is that when the ->-bleeped-<- hits the fan, bodies are what counted back then. If a person is really not that bright they'll most likely become a statistic. Sad to sad. On the bright side, technology has advanced so much that a major war most likely wouldn't last very long.
"When I was young things seemed soooo much simpler then" :)
I still say that everyone no matter what. In a bad situation then you are needed whether LGBT or straight male and female. The workd has changed so much since the Vietnam "war" even thought it was pretty much like Korea and not called a "war" but those that fought can't distinguish what politicians call it.
This is what gets me about the whole situation. A few or Kings, Queens, Bishops and Knights and the rest of us are just pawns on the board. Well I am just another pawn but that would be Ms. Pawn.
What is sad is like someone else said and that is a lot of younger kids can't even join because of weight issues and so on. I mean one qualification in Reception was 5 pushups and 5 sit ups and even then there were people that could not even manage that. I was 21 and the requirement for PT was 50 and 50 and a two mile run in 15:50 just to graduate basic. Then the same in AIT and pretty much throughout my service. Actually I can't remember the actual time on the run but you could actually walk fast for the first mile and run back and pass. I used to just jog at a faster pace and passed. Two miles is a long way though for kids to run now days. The run always sucked because it was after the pushups and sit ups. I come close to maxing the run before PLDC other than that I just passed it.
But when it comes to Signing up for Selective Service then everyone should have to sign up for it at the age of 18. But that is just my opinion though.
Quote from: Jenntrans on March 22, 2018, 01:46:41 PM
I still say that everyone no matter what. In a bad situation then you are needed whether LGBT or straight male and female. The workd has changed so much since the Vietnam "war" even thought it was pretty much like Korea and not called a "war" but those that fought can't distinguish what politicians call it.
This is what gets me about the whole situation. A few or Kings, Queens, Bishops and Knights and the rest of us are just pawns on the board. Well I am just another pawn but that would be Ms. Pawn.
What is sad is like someone else said and that is a lot of younger kids can't even join because of weight issues and so on. I mean one qualification in Reception was 5 pushups and 5 sit ups and even then there were people that could not even manage that. I was 21 and the requirement for PT was 50 and 50 and a two mile run in 15:50 just to graduate basic. Then the same in AIT and pretty much throughout my service. Actually I can't remember the actual time on the run but you could actually walk fast for the first mile and run back and pass. I used to just jog at a faster pace and passed. Two miles is a long way though for kids to run now days. The run always sucked because it was after the pushups and sit ups. I come close to maxing the run before PLDC other than that I just passed it.
But when it comes to Signing up for Selective Service then everyone should have to sign up for it at the age of 18. But that is just my opinion though.
Totally agree with you Jenn. War and bullets don't discriminate.
I never registered for it.
$250,000 is a lot of money
I like the idea of mandatory service for all with an option to serve in a non combat role.
The military themselves know the benefit of the all volunteer force. Every person there wants to be there. The draft is the last thing commanders want.
I had been in the Corps for 2 years when they drafted the last person:
On June 30, 1973, Archie Turner was the last known person drafted into the US Army. Though he did not choose to join the Army, he chose to stay. He retired in 2004 as a Sergeant Major and senior military adviser in the Defense Logistics Agency.
Back then, there were two schools of thought, one being that the elimination of the draft could lead to an all volunteer force becoming mercenaries and the second having draftees would ensure that democracy would survive because draftees wouldn't do the merc thing.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 22, 2018, 06:07:51 PM
I like the idea of mandatory service for all with an option to serve in a non combat role.
The military themselves know the benefit of the all volunteer force. Every person there wants to be there. The draft is the last thing commanders want.
Unfortunately some people are telling high school students that those that join the military are losers that can't do anything else. That is sad.
We truly are the one percenters. We have put ourselves through a bunch of BS to make sure that Americans can sleep safe, work and have normal jobs. at 5 AM I was doing PT or running. Sometimes at 3 AM.
I remember "working" 92 hours straight. If not me then how the hell else would have done it? Yes one percent of the population would and still does and I thank them profusely. Hell most kids now days can't get through the BS PT test at Reception which was only 5 pushups and 5 sit ups. That is sad. I have who nephews that can't.
I mean it ain't even a male or female thing. When I served there were plenty of women that could hit the 300 meter pop up better than a lot if not most men. Hell I am a "sissy" and fired expert every time on the range.
Unfortunately now it seems that higher education is a better option but what better option is there than learning how to deal with a totally different culture to actually learn?
I totally agree with you Devlyn. At least two years for mandatory service and then the kids may learn a little respect before college. Whip them into shape and put them in their place either combat or non combat roles. Other countries do it and if the US did they may appreciate it more what we have done and sacrificed.
That high school teacher who's the mayor of some small town is a jerk and the one who was telling students that people in the service are that.
I'm a Vietnam Vet and I still have issues with being spit on and it's a 50/50 thing when someone tells me thank you for your service. What makes it worse are the fakers who never served pretending they're veterans.
Like you mentioned, PT at 0500 but also the fact that 24/7 52 weeks a year until the day you get out, you really don't know what's going to happen the next day.
*No Profanity Please*
I must've misread what Devlyn said. I thought when she said some kind of service should be mandatory, but not combat, that she had some kind of community work in mind. Or forward to the armed services if that's your passion and you are physically fit enough. I can see the benefits of that, but not of mandatory involvement with the military itself.
From young people I see, they tend to have no deficit of 'respect' and don't need 'whipping into shape'.
Quote from: Cassi on April 02, 2018, 05:02:53 PM
That high school teacher who's the mayor of some small town is a jerk and the one who was telling students that people in the service are that.
I'm a Vietnam Vet and I still have issues with being spit on and it's a 50/50 thing when someone tells me thank you for your service. What makes it worse are the fakers who never served pretending they're veterans.
Like you mentioned, PT at 0500 but also the fact that 24/7 52 weeks a year until the day you get out, you really don't know what's going to happen the next day.
Yeah it sux Cassi. Most people now mean it. But I am usually skeptical of those that were spitting on you guys coming back from Vietnam. You know the type.
->-bleeped-<- I did PT for 20 hours straight a few times and signed up for that too. Sitting in the surf, freezing your ass off with sand getting all in you, walking swamps with all kind of reptiles that can kill you. Swimming in water with alligators, caiman and even crocodiles.
After basic PT for me could be 2200 hours to 0500 hours and maybe 1700 to 0500. If you failed then you failed but you never gave up. SEALs ring the bell when they want to drop out. We had no bell and just went back to our MOSs and that was that.
I volunteered but served my time. I have an honorable discharge and served my whole time in South Korea and that is about it.
Being a Marine was enough for me, lol.
The only good thing about PT, or PFT was if you had a hangover you didn't after 3 miles :)
Quote from: Cassi on April 02, 2018, 05:02:53 PM
I'm a Vietnam Vet and ...
What makes it worse are the fakers who never served pretending they're veterans.
Me too. The Korean vets came home to apathy, but we Viet Nam vets were despised.
Now that times are different, we have too many fakers. Some of their stories make me laugh. Total fabrication.
There are many u-tube videos on how to spot a fake veteran. It is called "Stolen Valor". Just search for "stolen valor" the next time you are on U-tube.
Quote from: Dani on April 02, 2018, 10:52:28 PM
Me too. The Korean vets came home to apathy, but we Viet Nam vets were despised.
Now that times are different, we have too many fakers. Some of their stories make me laugh. Total fabrication.
There are many u-tube videos on how to spot a fake veteran. It is called "Stolen Valor". Just search for "stolen valor" the next time you are on U-tube.
Thanks Dani,
I'm familiar with Stolen Valor. When I moved from California to Texas, I went to a couple of stores with a friend of mine. She'd asked the clerks if there was a senior's discount and some had it and some didn't. At one where they didn't did, she asks "Well, do you have any discounts?" and the clerk replied military/veteran. She was doing it basically to tease me on being older than her. Anyway, I would present my VA ID and get the discount. When I moved to Vegas, I went into a Lowe's Hardware which had a discount in Texas and they asked me to complete a form which verified veteran's status because too many "Stolen Valors" we taking advantage of the service.
Quote from: Dani on April 02, 2018, 10:52:28 PM
Me too. The Korean vets came home to apathy, but we Viet Nam vets were despised.
Now that times are different, we have too many fakers. Some of their stories make me laugh. Total fabrication.
There are many u-tube videos on how to spot a fake veteran. It is called "Stolen Valor". Just search for "stolen valor" the next time you are on U-tube.
Those Stolen Valor people are really easy to spot. Besides screwing up the uniform if they are wearing one they don't know the language and frankly just give off the wrong vibe. I ran into one once that began to tell me stories of his Special Forces adventures in Vietnam. He was obviously fake so I simply asked him when he had been to Ft. Benning. He said he had never heard of that place; an impossible answer for someone in the Army, particularly Special Forces. Mostly I just felt really embarrassed for that person.
The YouTube video of the "fat" Soldier from the Ranger Regiment demonstrated both how sad these people are and how out of touch they are with real Soldiers (& Airmen, Sailors, Marines). There is simply no such thing as a fat active duty Ranger. It doesn't exist. Seeing that fool was as disconcerting as it would be seeing a unicorn walking down the street.
Quote from: Cassi on April 02, 2018, 06:25:36 PM
Being a Marine was enough for me, lol.
The only good thing about PT, or PFT was if you had a hangover you didn't after 3 miles :)
The only thing a hangover got you in my company was the leeway to fall out and puke. But you'd better catch back up really fast or you'd be doing PT again that evening. (True story; it wasn't me and he did catch up)
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Quote from: Deborah on April 03, 2018, 03:27:29 AM
The only thing a hangover got you in my company was the leeway to fall out and puke. But you'd better catch back up really fast or you'd be doing PT again that evening. (True story; it wasn't me and he did catch up)
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They make you do stuff even when you're sick? That's really mean and awful!
Quote from: Julia1996 on April 03, 2018, 09:12:27 AM
They make you do stuff even when you're sick? That's really mean and awful!
That kind of sick is self induced so . . . No mercy. It also builds extreme mental hardness which is a good thing in the Infantry. You learn that the power of the mind overcomes much physical discomfort. It also might give them second thoughts about drinking that much again, or at least too often.
For real sick though they go see the medics and get medicine and excused from duty to get well if needed.
Quote from: Deborah on April 03, 2018, 03:27:29 AM
The only thing a hangover got you in my company was the leeway to fall out and puke. But you'd better catch back up really fast or you'd be doing PT again that evening. (True story; it wasn't me and he did catch up)
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LOL, no one ever dropped out to puke with a hangover :) On the run.....
Quote from: alex82 on April 02, 2018, 05:31:23 PM
I must've misread what Devlyn said. I thought when she said some kind of service should be mandatory, but not combat, that she had some kind of community work in mind. Or forward to the armed services if that's your passion and you are physically fit enough. I can see the benefits of that, but not of mandatory involvement with the military itself.
From young people I see, they tend to have no deficit of 'respect' and don't need 'whipping into shape'.
I meant direct involvement in the military for all. The only opt out being the ability to choose an administrative job rather than a combat arms role.
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Julia1996 on April 03, 2018, 09:12:27 AM
They make you do stuff even when you're sick? That's really mean and awful!
If you are sick then during PT formation you go to sick call. But don't expect too much sympathy though if you have a hangover. And others will know and then... Just suck it up and drive on. You will not be the only one hung over believe me.
I did not do PT in Korea. Still had to take the PT tests though along with weapons qualification.
But no if you are sick or inured then you go to sick call and the Doc will give you a "profile" which will allow you to be on lighter duties but hung over is not being sick or injured. That is just making a bad choice the night before and everyone does it.
But dear, a hangover is a bad decision you made the night before and not being sick. With a hangover you still have to do the PT and that includes running. Just drop out, throw up and catch up. If not you will never hear the end of it. When you go TDY, that is pretty much party time. No PT, you get money and it is pretty much a gravy duty. But you still better be where you need to be on time.
The Military is a little different than civilian life. I mean I had to get someone out of jail in Osan. It was a guy I worked with that got a little drunk and assaulted a KN. Not quite an international incident that made AFKN and I paid the fines and since I was his superior, I never said anything to mine about it other than I handled it.
The thing that gets me is that most everyone that has never served think it is like eternal Basic Training or Boot Camp with R. Lee Ermy calling recruits steers or queers and so on. When you get to your first duty station then a lot of that military BS goes our the window. You will serve with these people for a year or more and unless you are in trouble, then the Military Bearing goes out the window. It is nothing more than a job outside of a training environment.
Julia, it really ain't as bad as what most think after basic or more intense training. So don't think that military service is like Hollywood portrays it. It is actually pretty lax after the training and pretty much just another job. It is kind of like being a cop. You become temporary family members that realize you may die together or have to sacrifice yourself for them or used deadly force to save them.
Yeah the training environment sux. But the rest is pretty lax.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on April 03, 2018, 11:08:31 AM
I meant direct involvement in the military for all. The only opt out being the ability to choose an administrative job rather than a combat arms role.
Hugs, Devlyn
Fair enough. I misunderstood your meaning. I disagree entirely but do so respectfully.
Quote from: alex82 on April 03, 2018, 06:00:22 PM
Fair enough. I misunderstood your meaning. I disagree entirely but do so respectfully.
Agree to disagree is always the best approach. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
Registering for the draft doesn't mean one will be drafted and if it happens, you have a choice. I think a volunteer military is best. Not everyone is cut out for it and would I want people there that didn't want to be there? Not me. Imagine being forced to be a gender you aren't. The other thing is, the military is the military arm or force of any administrations foreign policy. You're not a freedom fighter or any other feel good narrative. If the president sends you into danger, it's at his discretion and whim and considering some of our recent presidents, I trust my judgement before theirs.
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Quote from: Devlyn Marie on April 03, 2018, 06:09:42 PM
Agree to disagree is always the best approach. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
It would be stupid of me not to! You've got the gun training!
No, joking aside, I can see some value but many downsides, for very many reasons.
Don't think by saying that I'm having a pop at the military. I always wear a poppy in November for my grandfather and his service, and I'm very proud of the things he survived. I just don't know that it was good for him. There's a dignity about that now gone Greatest Generation, and I think it's no mistake that most of them were against further conflicts (just enough alive to be horrified by Iraq II), wanted their own kids far away from conscripted service, and built towards that.
Despite his being a real gentleman, I feel like my grandad's chance of full emotional health and ultimately physical health (shrapnel still in there near an artery) was taken without choice. It's a crime (I believe) to steal the ambitions and hopes of youth, or bend it to nationalism by conscripted service for causes that are often opaque at best.
I'm also unsure of its fairness to parents. I know that my own great great grandmother committed suicide after receiving the black edged envelope about her son in WW1. That seems like a waste of two lives. A talented, and by all accounts, outrageous woman, and a young boy who could've gone on to do anything but died in mud and blood. To think how many millions lost like that could've achieved God knows what for humanity, is heartbreaking.
Voluntarily joining a professional armed forces is entirely different, and I'm not naive enough to think they're not needed.
Quote from: alex82 on April 03, 2018, 06:57:02 PM
It would be stupid of me not to! You've got the gun training!
No, joking aside, I can see some value but many downsides, for very many reasons.
Don't think by saying that I'm having a pop at the military. I always wear a poppy in November for my grandfather and his service, and I'm very proud of the things he survived. I just don't know that it was good for him. There's a dignity about that now gone Greatest Generation, and I think it's no mistake that most of them were against further conflicts (just enough alive to be horrified by Iraq II), wanted their own kids far away from conscripted service, and built towards that.
Despite his being a real gentleman, I feel like my grandad's chance of full emotional health and ultimately physical health (shrapnel still in there near an artery) was taken without choice. It's a crime (I believe) to steal the ambitions and hopes of youth, or bend it to nationalism by conscripted service for causes that are often opaque at best.
I'm also unsure of its fairness to parents. I know that my own great great grandmother committed suicide after receiving the black edged envelope about her son in WW1. That seems like a waste of two lives. A talented, and by all accounts, outrageous woman, and a young boy who could've gone on to do anything but died in mud and blood. To think how many millions lost like that could've achieved God knows what for humanity, is heartbreaking.
I believe that those who enjoy the benefit of a free society owe some debt to the protection of those freedoms. I understand some people don't wish to participate in the military aspect of that, but the troops need toothbrushes too, and driving a truckful of toothbrushes never hurt anyone on either side of the conflict. :)
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on April 03, 2018, 07:08:48 PM
I believe that those who enjoy the benefit of a free society owe some debt to the protection of those freedoms. I understand some people don't wish to participate in the military aspect of that, but the troops need toothbrushes too, and driving a truckful of toothbrushes never hurt anyone on either side of the conflict. :)
Without taking away my feelings above. Yes. Here's your Colgate ;)