Given that somewhere between 3% and 10% of the population is gay or bisexual, and somewhere under 2% of the population is transgender, you'd think it would be relatively rare for trans people to just happen to be gay/bi and trans at the same time. However, based on anecdotes and stories from trans people I've read, a heck of a lot of them seem to be gay or bi, at a rate way higher than cis people. (For the purposes of this discussion, I'm defining "gay" as transwomen who are attracted to women, and transmen who are attracted to men. That was probably obvious, but I've found that defining sexual orientation terms for transgender people can get really confusing.)
Have their been any studies on what the rates of homosexuality are in the trans community, or any studies on why the rate might be higher, if it is indeed higher and it's not just my imagination? Maybe sexual orientation is linked more to body development than brain development, resulting in a high rate of attraction to the opposite physical sex, but not the opposite mental gender?
Actually, I haven't heard of many statistical studies of trans folks at all. I am guessing that the answer is that no one really knows for sure.
One factor may be that awareness of being trans develops slowly for many of us. I have seen one therapist's article that said that most of their trans clients were between 35 and 55. Which means that those people's sexuality was well-developed before they were out as trans.
For whatever reason, whether it is something innate or internalized homophobia, most of us develop a sexual attraction to the opposite of our assigned-at-birth sex. So I was attracted to women and thought I was a normal heterosexual male.
So now, having transitioned, that attraction, which in my case has not changed, makes me a lesbian. It seems that that pattern is common among trans folks.
Sexual orientation is supposedly set at birth and is not dependent on post-birth environmental factors, though. Or at least, that's what I've read in the past; that's why it's not actually possible to "catch" being gay in the way that the religious right fears, it's not dependent on a child being raised "wrong" or on being exposed to homosexuality during childhood. This being the case, I'm somewhat doubtful that the prevalence of homosexuality in trans people is due to them accepting the norms that were put on them before transitioning. If sexual orientation were that malleable, I'd think that homosexuality would be a lot more rare among everyone since it's not the path of least resistance.
EDIT: Probably a better way to phrase that last sentence would be that homosexuality would be very rare in cis people, but common in transgender people since it's the path of least resistance.
I mean I've not heard anything about these studies but I have heard that sexuality in trans people's cases tends to be a lot more open. I'm not sure how true that is but I can say out of the transpeople I've met, homosexuality and bisexuality in particular does seem to be more prevalent.
Then again though the large majority of my friend group's taste in partners is "someone with a pulse" so I can't really speak for all transpeople
-Nathanyel
Hi Lucca, 07 June 2018
Being relatively new and late to the transition scene, I can only speak for myself. At my first counselor session my counselor stated that I was definitely not gay, I was a female trapped in a male body. I am now a MTF transgender / transsexual female that does NOT have any attraction to men. I love women and I can't imagine having some guy crawling all over me looking for someplace to stick his willy. Ain't going to happen. I want to be with women and I'd hazard a guess that most MTF women prefer women.
I know what I was like when I was a young man, just a POS who wanted to stick his willy in a woman and shoot semen in and on her. I didn't know the first thing about pleasuring a woman, it was all about my pleasure. How many young women did I harm during that period of my life? I have no idea. I had great roll models during that period of my life; just a bunch of horny ignorant guys like myself. Unfortunately, I have no way of righting those wrongs. Saying I'm sorry won't fix anything, truth is, I'm Sorry is so over used it's an insult. Best to be careful in what we do to and say about others. If no harm done, no need to apologize. Save I'm sorry for a spilled drink.
If I were reincarnated into a woman and came back knowing what I know today, I would certainly be a lesbian.
I doubt this post answered your questions though I hope it provokes some discussion on the subject. There is no intent on my part to insult, offend or denigrate anyone other than myself. If my language seems harsh, see my signature for an explanation (should be easy to figure out).
Best Always, Love,
Christine
I know I've read somewhere that sexuality tends to be fluid, or at least that it is in bisexual people. It definitely is for me; I frequently shift between preferring masculinity and femininity.
I've heard some people theorize that sexuality may be a learned behavior, like gender roles, and that most people would be pansexual if they didn't mentally limit themselves to heterosexuality, but I don't know of any studies that back that up. What I do know is that a lot of straight people experiment, or have affairs with, members of their own sex, without considering themselves gay, and that women are more likely to be open to such experimentation than men. I think that men may be more likely to confine their preferences in response to greater societal pressure (in other words, gay shaming).
By definition is it not impossible for a transsexual person not to have had an homosexual experience if they have sexual experience both before and transition.
Quote from: Kylo on June 07, 2018, 07:57:22 PM
By definition is it not impossible for a transsexual person not to have had an homosexual experience if they have sexual experience both before and transition.
Yeah, I've been telling people for years that it's physically impossible for me to be straight. 8)
I believe that for older trans people there was incredible pressure to be someone they were not. Their sexuality does not exist in total isolation of the gender identity. That sexuality can be squeezed, distorted, or confused by the conditions they went through. When you have an outie instead of an innie for example it sure can mess things up. For some, there is no problem of course. For many it is just plain confusing.
I can't comment on anyone else but regardless of my GENDER identity I've always known I was bisexual. I don't feel they are linked in anyway for me.
I´ve now noticed, that what I thought was attraction to women, was actually just attraction to their facial features, hair, make-up etc etc. It wasn´t actually a romantic attraction of sexual. I still get attracted to a women, when I see one nicely dressed, with perfect make-up, hair and facial features...but that is just part of gender dysphoria, to watch how I might have looked.
I´m straight...unfortunately, because I don´t really believe, that I actually will any man, that would like me as a ts. Or if I find, they usually are those, that are attracted to me, just because I´m ts.
Then again, as I´ve never actually dated anyone for real (due to the things I said in the beginning), or loved anyone. Perhaps I can continue alone too.
Sexuality and gender identity in the binary sense that I guess you're referring to is kind of dated
I am not aware of any reliable studies comparing gender identity with sexual orientation.
For myself, transition came later in my life mainly because an active sex life was no longer an issue. Mentally, I longed to be a woman, but physically, I was attracted to women. Early on, the physical sexual drives overwhelmed all other concerns, as it does in most men. However, years later as the sexual drive diminished, the gender dysphoria never went away and became more prominent.
At age 68, sexual relations are a very small part of my remaining life. I consider myself to be asexual, however, I would be open to a relationship if the right man would come along.
So, am I gay or straight? For me, it's not a major concern. I am just finally living life as I wish. ;)
I really dont think that the labels of gay bi or straight really fit trans people well at all, its all about perspective right, i for example right now male body female mind, does that mean if into females im straigt or gay? If i consider myself a lesbian others might say im straight.
It makes more sence in terms of a history of a person while in their original form, the real question is how many gay people go on to be trans at a later point compared to straight
I've never seen any kind of "official" stats, but several informal surveys I've seen around various places over the last few years all had fairly similar results, for trans women at least, 30% straight, 30% lesbian, 30% bisexual and the remaining 10% consisted of other options such as pan, poly, asexual. My therapist also suggested something similar from his experience.
I'm not sure I agree, as I do see sexual preference as being somewhat fluid. Romantic preference is often another matter.
Quote from: PurplePelican on June 08, 2018, 04:07:03 AM
I've never seen any kind of "official" stats, but several informal surveys I've seen around various places over the last few years all had fairly similar results, for trans women at least, 30% straight, 30% lesbian, 30% bisexual and the remaining 10% consisted of other options such as pan, poly, asexual. My therapist also suggested something similar from his experience.
I'm not sure I agree, as I do see sexual preference as being somewhat fluid. Romantic preference is often another matter.
I have seen similar information, and not seen evidence to back it up. What I understand about Transwomen my age (old) is that more are lesbian than anything else with asexual being a close second. I largely fit into that second category, but I still am repulsed by men.
The dated gender/sexuality theory I use says that sexual orientation and gender identity are distinct different things. So any combination can happen. The surveys I see indicate there are a LOT more Trans* people than the cis community wants to admit, with younger people being more open to accepting their gender identity. There is some indication that if someone transitions early enough they are more open to be attracted to those of the opposite to their identified gender. However, anything can happen so it is impossible to generalize.
I am very much in line with modern thinking that gender identity and sexual orientation are two completely separate subjects.
Although we have no reliable statistics, I am inclined to believe that the number of transgender people may in fact be more than that assumed - I am inclined to believe at least 1.5% and perhaps twice that as the subject becomes more discussed in the public domain, there is less obstruction and gradually more acceptance.
Both from reading Susans and other outside sources, I think lesbian and asexual MTFs certainly outnumber the straight and bisexual MTFs. This is surprising in the circumstances but this is certainly my experience in the UK aswell as on Susans. Personally I am happily asexual with minor lesbian tendencies.
I am also of the view that both subjects are not brought about by environment or upbringing. We are born transgender even if we do not realise till many years afterwards. Our sexual orientation and its degree is usually known at or shortly after puberty but I accept it can change to some degree later in life.
I think we can at least safely assume that the asexual and lesbian and bisexual proportion of us transgenders is greater than that of cisgenders.
Food for thought. Hugs to all.
Pamela
Quote from: PurplePelican on June 08, 2018, 04:07:03 AM
I've never seen any kind of "official" stats, but several informal surveys I've seen around various places over the last few years all had fairly similar results, for trans women at least, 30% straight, 30% lesbian, 30% bisexual and the remaining 10% consisted of other options such as pan, poly, asexual. My therapist also suggested something similar from his experience.
This has also been my totally unscientific observation for the older transitioners. Seems though that the younger transitioners (no idea exactly where to draw that line) tend to fall closer to the cis population percentages.
Some random thoughts:
I identify as a woman and am attracted to women so that would make me a lesbian, even though I still have OEM parts.
I've always had some questions about my gender and with straight being the societal norm, I wonder that were I attracted to men, would I have transitioned earlier?
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
I've never read any articles on the subject or anything, but I'm trans FTM and I like boys ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Adding another three cents worth, 08 June 2018
From what I have read and heard, in general, most gay men do not like women nor do they want to be women. They don't dress as women or wear women's clothing.
If what I stated is accurate then it stands to reason (mine) that most trans (MTF) women would be lesbian; I can believe someone being a straight male that transitions may want to be with men; I just don't think the percentage is high, though anything is possible as it is in the cis world.
I think most folks could care less what or who someone is as long as that someone isn't making a big issue of their choices by jamming them down someone else's throat.
There are whackos on both sides of any issue; they are the problem. I recently saw a photo of young lady protesting the use of alligators in the making of Gatorade. I cannot attest to the veracity of the sign, but it does illustrate the ignorance that prevails on both sides.
If everyone would mind there own business as much as they mind everyone else's, the world would be better off. If what I do has the potential to harm only me, then it is no one else's business, including the government in all its forms.
As for the latter, government in all its forms, means that if I decide to do drugs and OD, the government has no responsibility to treat me for my stupidity. Whatever happens to me because of my decision(s) is my responsibility alone. If I should die, so be it.
Best Always, Love,
Christine
Quote from: DEATH13 on June 08, 2018, 09:18:43 AM
I've never read any articles on the subject or anything, but I'm trans FTM and I like boys ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Makes perfect sense to me as long as the "boys" are of legal age.
I hope your screen name is not an indication of something you wish for.
Best Always, Love,
Christine
Quote from: christinej78 on June 08, 2018, 10:49:09 AM
Makes perfect sense to me as long as the "boys" are of legal age.
I hope your screen name is not an indication of something you wish for.
Best Always, Love,
Christine
His username's a reference to a power used in an anime show, which itself is a reference to a tarot card. It's perfectly harmless. :)
There are studies that give decent data on this, sorry no I don't have time to look them up just now.
The best understanding I have is that among early-onset trans people of both genders, they're relatively more likely to be gay identified in their assigned gender, hence straight in their true gender identity. Conversely late-onset trans women at least are more likely to be straight identified in assigned gender hence gay identified wrt their true gender (I honestly don't know if I've seen numbers for late-onset FTM people so I can't speak to that).
I don't think this data is easy to interpret. By definition for most studies done in the last 20 years late-onset people would have grown up in a time when it was far less acceptable to be gay identified and the reverse of course true for early-onset.
It also has been true for all groups that they tend to have the same gender attraction before and after transition, hence a change of orientation - label is likely for most.
I don't have much investment in the nature vs nurture bit. Personally being bi / pansexual but far more comfortable with people of either sex who have femme affect I can only speak to how I feel which happens to be fairly typical for my cohort (late-onset).
Quote from: DustKitten on June 08, 2018, 02:10:44 PM
His username's a reference to a power used in an anime show, which itself is a reference to a tarot card. It's perfectly harmless. :)
I would hazard a guess that less people know than those that don't. All the folks I know that do anything tarot related I can count on one finger and have a remainder of 2. Perception is 90% of most folks reality. When two people look out the same window, they see different and differing things. In the short time I have been on this space ship I have had occasion to write and or say something in an official capacity. What I said and or wrote was misunderstood because either I did not allow for others perception or I was vague. Most of the time it was peoples perception which tainted their understanding of what I said or wrote.
A good example is when I was in the Navy aboard my last ship. There are career minded people in the service; some think everyone in the service should think like they do. If you make it known you have no intention of reenlisting they will sometimes make your life a bit more difficult. I decided before I got there I would say things that would make the average person think I was considering making a career of the Navy. When the subject came up I would say: "I've been thinking of making a career out of the Navy." Everyone in our command thought I was career oriented until my time had almost run out. I went to the Executive Officer and asked to be transferred to a Navy Receiving Station to await discharge. He said to me; "I thought you were thinking of making a career out of the navy?" I responded back with:" Yes, OUT out." Everyone's perception was 180° out from mine; I wasn't lying, I just let them think what they wanted to think. It worked for me; I was out 39 days early. Politicians do the same thing, they make you think one way when they mean something different.
My first thoughts were that this screen name wasn't the best choice for this site. I figured the person that it belonged to was either a teenager, a very immature adult or someone with problems. Turns out my initial instinct was correct.
I have no control over how this site is operated or the rules governing it. I do know it is here to help members of the LBGTQWXYZ anything you want to be community. There is nothing funny or uplifting about death. There are members here that have lost their children and have had to bury them. I can't think of anything worse than for that to happen. Children are supposed to bury their parents, not the other way around. I don't think they need to see something so gloomy that may elicit additional remorse.
I have now had my 25 cents worth of commentary on this subject. You and or anyone else is free to criticize and or condemn my thoughts. If I were the owner of the screen name in question, I would come up with something more appropriate and uplifting and then ask a Moderator to change it, which can be done.
Sorry for the long post; some things require me to say things, which I obviously do.
Best Always, Love,
Christine
Erm... the name's harmless, and I highly doubt anyone here is disturbed just because someone has the word "death" in their username. It's more likely that we'll needlessly scare away a new member by suggesting their username is pedophilic :-\.
Quote from: anastasialea on June 07, 2018, 11:47:19 PM
Sexuality and gender identity in the binary sense that I guess you're referring to is kind of dated
Ain't
THAT the truth! There's an old Susan's poll, which is still open for voting, here (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14719.0.html).
When just about "anything goes" (a wide spectrum of answers) then polls become pretty meaningless.
Quote from: christinej78 on June 08, 2018, 10:45:18 AM
From what I have read and heard, in general, most gay men do not like women nor do they want to be women. They don't dress as women or wear women's clothing.
If what I stated is accurate then it stands to reason (mine) that most trans (MTF) women would be lesbian; I can believe someone being a straight male that transitions may want to be with men; I just don't think the percentage is high, though anything is possible as it is in the cis world.
IChristine
Quote from: SadieBlake on June 08, 2018, 02:42:53 PM
There are studies that give decent data on this, sorry no I don't have time to look them up just now.
The best understanding I have is that among early-onset trans people of both genders, they're relatively more likely to be gay identified in their assigned gender, hence straight in their true gender identity. Conversely late-onset trans women at least are more likely to be straight identified in assigned gender hence gay identified wrt their true gender (I honestly don't know if I've seen numbers for late-onset FTM people so I can't speak to that).
I don't think this data is easy to interpret. By definition for most studies done in the last 20 years late-onset people would have grown up in a time when it was far less acceptable to be gay identified and the reverse of course true for early-onset.
It also has been true for all groups that they tend to have the same gender attraction before and after transition, hence a change of orientation - label is likely for most.
I would also add a couple of points with which with my limited experience I agree although they may appear somewhat contradictory:
1. Christine's point above meaning logically MTF - a completely separate entity to gay men - would be lesbian or asexual. I may be biased as I am asexual with minor lesbian tendencies.
2. Sadie's point and mentioned also by Tonya and Erin that perhaps it is mainly older MTFs who tend to be lesbian or asexual but younger MTFs who tend to be straight or asexual.
Most interesting debate
Have a good weekend everyone
Pamela