Editor's Note: We combined the 3 recent threads into one large one.
Susan Stanton's lonely transformation
http://www.sptimes.com/2007/12/31/Life/Susan_Stanton_s_lonel.shtml
By LANE DeGREGORY, Times Staff Writer
12/31/2007
SARASOTA -- Every morning, Susan Stanton wakes early and takes three pills. They help her suppress who she was and become the person she believes she should be.
"But I don't blame the human rights groups from separating the transgender people from the protected groups. Most Americans aren't ready for us yet," Susan says. Transgender people need to be able to prove they're still viable workers -- especially in the mainstream. "
====
<SNARK>
Thank You Very Much, Susan Stanton...
</SNARK>
Karen
Her words... her tone is very worrisome now. If something doesn't change for her very soon, I don't know if she's going to make it.
~Kate~
She does not seem like anyone I would ever want to meet.
Quote from: tekla on December 30, 2007, 10:08:29 PM
She does not seem like anyone I would ever want to meet.
Why not?
~Kate~
well, she's scared. she faced too much red tape when she was "steve". she'll make it just fine like all of us did.
Quote from: Natasha on December 30, 2007, 10:26:45 PM
well, she's scared. she faced too much red tape when she was "steve". she'll make it fine just like all of us did.
I sure hope so. She went through SO much, and was such an incredibly classy lady in spite of all the venom being thrown her way.
But I worry about statements like:
Quote"If I have no more professional existence," Susan says, "I will end it. I couldn't live like that."
"And I wasn't born a woman, so I can never be a real one."
I wish we could get her to join here somehow...
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on December 30, 2007, 10:33:46 PM
Quote from: Natasha on December 30, 2007, 10:26:45 PM
well, she's scared. she faced too much red tape when she was "steve". she'll make it fine just like all of us did.
I sure hope so. She went through SO much, and was such an incredibly classy lady in spite of all the venom being thrown her way.
But I worry about statements like:
Quote"If I have no more professional existence," Susan says, "I will end it. I couldn't live like that."
"And I wasn't born a woman, so I can never be a real one."
~Kate~
point taken. but we've got to understand that she's lost so much. i wouldn't be surprised if she's in a very depressive state right now.
Quote from: Kate on December 30, 2007, 10:33:46 PM
I wish we could get her to join here somehow...
there are quite a few vocal members here, activists i mean. maybe they could try to contact her somehow. i'm sure they'd know how.
Quote from: Kate on December 30, 2007, 10:02:12 PM
Her words... her tone is very worrisome now. If something doesn't change for her very soon, I don't know if she's going to make it.
~Kate~
I agree with Kate. Two comments tell me she's in serious trouble.
"I'd rather die than go back to being Steve," Susan says. But she says losing her professional standing
"hurts in ways I never could have imagined."and
"If I have no more professional existence," Susan says,
"I will end it. I couldn't live like that."Those along with the talk about loneliness and loss of all her friends don't bode well for her future.
Beverly
I truly hope the best for Ms Stanton, however her trans consciousness could use some serious raising. Perhaps she might consider reading Julia Serano's Whipping Girl.
y2g
Quote from: Kate on December 30, 2007, 10:33:46 PM
I wish we could get her to join here somehow...
~Kate~
Feel free Kate...
email: a19b59 located_at yahoo d.o.t com
Web site: www.SAStanton.com
Quote from: Natasha on December 30, 2007, 10:43:15 PM
Quote from: Kate on December 30, 2007, 10:33:46 PM
I wish we could get her to join here somehow...
there are quite a few vocal members here, activists i mean. maybe they could try to contact her somehow. i'm sure they'd know how.
I sent her an e-mail inviting her to visit and join us here.
Beverly
I just hope that if she DOES join, she'll be treated as Susan... and not as a transsexual activist who "owes the community" anything more. I think she's done quite enough already.
It sounds like she's realizing that the spotlight has moved on, and now it's time to just live her life. But as a woman, not a transsexual, not an activist, not as "that transsexual from Largo," not part of a "transsexual community," but as just another woman now.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on December 30, 2007, 11:27:21 PM
I just hope that if she DOES join, she'll be treated as Susan... and not as a transsexual activist who "owes the community" anything more. I think she's done quite enough already.
It sounds like she's realizing that the spotlight has moved on, and now it's time to just live her life. But as a woman, not a transsexual, not an activist, not as "that transsexual from Largo," not part of a "transsexual community," but as just another woman now.
~Kate~
i concord. ha ha ha ha very good point! ;)
I hope ever one invit her to visit.
I'm all for the idea of inviting her to the forum!
But I wish to suggest a couple of things:
-Have only one member sponsor her -- teach her the ropes, etc.
-Have her register under a pseudonym, so that she can be herself and not "that famous person."
She didn't ask for or seek out the celebrity, she was shoved in, chewed up thoroughly and spit out.
I think it would help her immensely to leave that baggage behind when she visits Susans.
Karen
Quote from: Karen on December 31, 2007, 12:16:27 AM
She didn't ask for or seek out the celebrity, she was shoved in, chewed up thoroughly and spit out.
What? She walked into the city council meeting with her eyes wide open and knew the possibilities and probabilities, or else she was either very naive, blind or worse. She had a low six figure income and still has an excellent resume, and she can't find a good job recruiter? She has a year severance pay, gets money for speaking engagements and the documentary (I've read they're paying her srs), and she's worried about money? Like she understands the real world of most transwomen?
I'm sorry, the article has a lot of "Huh?" questions in it because she expressed little insight into the transcommunity and repeated some rhetoric from the HRC, such as:
Quote"But I don't blame the human rights groups from separating the transgender people from the protected groups. Most Americans aren't ready for us yet," Susan says. Transgender people need to be able to prove they're still viable workers -- especially in the mainstream.
"The biggest issue against the federal legislation is that politicians think the ladies' rooms will be invaded by guys in drag," Susan says, "instead of someone like me."
And we're supposed to say it's ok for a newcomer to say this in the public spotlight (being invited to testify and speak "for us") without being angry or hurt by her words? And we're supposed to accept her discrimination about transwomen who have problems because she thinks she's better and passes?
She's not aware of all the transwomen who have lead very successful lives, many in stealth mode, but still totally integrated into the world? She's not aware of all the public transwomen who have been excellent examples of transwomen (Lynn Conway's Website) and don't denigrate the community and members in the press?
She may be a good example for trans-inclusion in ENDA, and she testified before Congress for this, but then she says she "understands" why it "we're" the problem. What didn't she know about doing her homework? She expected her experience to be representative of the community? Give me a break.
I wish her the best, but I think she needs to become normal and get out of the spotlight so she can find a job and have a life, or decide the public forum is her new life, and then be ready for the fireworks for and against her. And she hasn't been off to a good start of her own making.
And I don't have any sympathy or empathy for her. She made her choices and created her situation, and if she wasn't ready for the criticism, then she shouldn't have stepped into the spotlight. All she has to do is say "No, thanks, I'm not giving any interviews." How hard is that?
I do think inviting her here, Helen's or Calpernia' forums will help (I'm not sure she's ready for Calpernia's unless she develops some thicker skin) is a good idea and will help to educate and inform her where she'll see more of the community. She needs help, but more importantly, in my view, needs a reality check about life and the real transcommunity.
--Susan--
I am disappointed in her belief that somehow we must prove our worth as citizens and workers before we are worthy of protection. It seems shortsighted somehow.
HOWEVER! This woman has done more to bring transsexual awareness to the forefront of current society since Rene Richards or Christine Jorgensen.
She did NOT ask to be in the spotlight! She did not set out to cause a ruckus. Her belief was that it would be a simple and hopefully quiet transition. And she had the background support of her peers prior to the story breaking on CNN.
It was the fundies that made a big deal of it, calling her sick and deviant. Yet she stood there and took all they could throw at her and never once retaliated in kind. I respect that. I don't know that I could have done the same in my transition. Also if you look at the comments of the news story it still seems that most of the people who read the article are all thinking she is still a man, that being transsexual is a choice and that having GRS is mutilation.
Personally, I think she should move out of that redneck state and to one that is more understanding.
If she comes here, absolutely I would agree that she should have as much anonimity as she wants/needs. To me she is just another woman trying to make it in the world and that I can respect!
-Sandy
Quote from: Kassandra on December 31, 2007, 10:27:43 AM
I am disappointed in her belief that somehow we must prove our worth as citizens and workers before we are worthy of protection. It seems shortsighted somehow.
Yea, I thought that was an odd comment from her. It sounds like her self-esteem has been shaken, and she's starting to believe her crtitics were right. I'm not a fan of an inclusive-ENDA, but I was surprised to hear HER say that.
STILL, I think she needs to get away from the Transsexual Community and start living her life as Susan now. Sooner or later she has to realize that The Community is just using her to further it's own ends and agenda. And I suspect she's beginning to see that now, and compounded with the loss of her job and friends/family, doesn't know where to turn now for support.
As for her job problems, well... welcome to womanhood, Susan, lol. I don't think it's simply a trans problem for her, it's just the same problem many women face in trying to prove themselves as professionals. I suspect I'd encounter the same difficulties if I ever have to find work in the computer field.
Oh, and yes... I sent her an email last night, and suggested she join anonymously. I'd hate to see her pounced on by people feeling a need to "educate" her on trans awareness, etc. The woman deserves to live for herself now.
~Kate~
She's over on Jennifer Boylan's discussion boards, http://jenniferboylan.net/paranormal/, but has only posted an introduction, and I'd be surprised if she posts any others.
Kate, I don't want to deflect this too much; but its more a self-esteem issue than a woman issue.
Though there is some linkage because some women they are less capable than men.
I come from an engineering background and all the female graduate in 1990 found jobs
in the exact same time as their male counterpart in all fields (even computer engineering).
I don't see why it would be worse now. My school was Polytechnique, which had 17% female students
(now its about 35% I think and still slowly climbing) in 1989 when a madman kill
14 women because he felt they took his place
in university. Our engineering school had the hgihest female proportion of any engineering school in
1989 and
The problem with women finding jobs especially in over 35 women, lack of experience and lack
of professional devellopment; though affects more pay scale than ability to get a job. If you compare people of similar skills, they'll both get jobs though there is still a slight discrepancy in pay scale by career's end (5-10%)
which may be linked to males still constituting most upper management position (but this also is changing).
The problem with Susan is that her self-esteem is obviously battered, she's isolated (isolation is one of the MAIN reason transitions fail) and on the job front, she's kind of a hot potato for any job at the level she sought for before. No company or government office wants the kind of media attention that she will bring no matter what her resume is.
What she should probably do is find a job with less public exposure for one year that uses her skills. Something as a senior project manager for example (which are paid handsomely, but have very little public profile). Then, when all the attention has faded slowly move back to a position with more exposure. She could also devellop more confidence in herself by doing so out of the limelight under political pressure.
Quote from: Joyce on December 31, 2007, 11:23:10 AM
She's over on Jennifer Boylan's discussion boards, http://jenniferboylan.net/paranormal/, but has only posted an introduction, and I'd be surprised if she posts any others.
Thanks! A good read, especially her followup posts in the thread. Hate to say I TOLD YOU SO, lol... but...
Good for her. If she can just get through this transitional phase from transsexual to woman, she's going to do JUST fine.
~Kate~
maybe "not" being followed by CNN might help a little.
Susan Stanton's lonely transition - COMMENTARY
http://planetransgender.blogspot.com/2008/01/susan-stantons-lonely-transition.html
by Kelli Busey
01/02/2008
News flash Susan. You think like a bigot in a dress, and I as a hard working transgender woman , please note, WORKING, Americans do not need your approval.
>ouch! :o<
Quote from: Audrey on December 31, 2007, 03:49:37 PM
maybe "not" being followed by CNN might help a little.
That's excellent advice and something she should consider, but doing a documentary on her took her approval along with compensation, which may include financial support and paying for surgeries (srs?). So, who then, is to blame for her being a "public" figure, CNN for following her whenever and wherever they want or her for being a partner in the work? What didn't she understand about, "Gee, it's a good opportunity, but I'm not ready for something like this at this time."
I agree with the responses here and elsewhere that indicate she's lonely, and I agree, but I wonder where her therapist and close friends were when she contemplating coming out - which we still have to remember, she wasn't outed, she came out all by herself. Didn't anyone talk with her about this reality?
Obviously, to me at least, her having been a city manager was a very interpersonal job and now without the continuous interaction with people can be daunting and isolating. But she didn't have to agree to be a spokewoman for the HRC and others(?) and agree and promote herself for speaking engagements (see her Website http://www.susanastanton.com/ - note that "a" for the middle name, the real Susan Stanton is a professonal photographer) so early after coming out. When will she recognize that her experience isn't necessarily representative of many if not most (trans)women?
And I for one would like to know why we have to be P.C. and nice to her? We can be critical in a positive and diplomatic way, but do we really need to be so gracious about it? Especially after the tone and words in the article? If she wants to walk into (her choice, she's not being dragged) and stand in the spotiight, she has to understand the consequences, and expressing being hurt isn't an answer, it's an excuse.
I agree she's an excellent example for inclusion in ENDA, and she had the right to testify before Congress. However, how many (trans)women have lost jobs and careers and weren't asked to testify? Because she was a high profile person? And that's better than the many in low to middle income jobs? I don't see where she can be public when it suits her but private when faced with criticism and/or serious questions.
I realize this thread has been pummelled to death, and I'll stop posting my opinion. I'm just a little angry that almost all of us have had the same experience as her but we didn't whine in public and seek more attention to express it. I retired early for my transistion and pursue a hobby turned career with my eyes wide open after five years of preparation with a life coach and therapist. Didn't she think being fired was a reality and didn't prepare for that possibility?
If she wants to be a role model, she should use her experience to get a job in her field to show we're as normal as everyone else. How many (transwomen) have continued in their careers and professions during and after their transistion, even if/when they had to change jobs? She still has a career, far better than most of us, and she still has a good resume. Hasn't she learned her publicity won't help her career or job hunt?
Ok, I'll park the soapbox, I need some breakfast and especially espresso before my synapses starting beating my brain.
--Susan--
I know Natasha didn't post that article so my comments are not directed at her, but at people like Kelli Busey the writer. Look people education is the key with people like Susan Stanton rather than spraying venom. Don't bash, don't slam, just explain, it will work much better in the long run. As we educate Susan, we can also advance the progress of educating the American public.
With one huge caveat - you have to want to learn first.
What do you think happened to her?
For awhile there, she was THE figurehead for TS Rights and all, speaking everywhere, doing interviews and shows, trying to point out that we're just ordinary people.
Now all the sudden she's given up on everything, thinks she's special and different than the "men in dresses" she met, and so on.
Why the sudden total turn-around?
~Kate~
I think there are times when all of us may get upset about at least one 'man in a dress.'
It becomes easy to think we are special or different. Pain becomes a great equalizer, but only after we begin to see that 'the men in dresses' are not causing my specific pain. The learning curve on that can be a long and shallow one. It has been for me.
N~
I think putting down people is the sign of low self-esteem and internal suffering.
Many of "man in dresses" (tm) live better integrated and happier lives than her,
that must hurt. When you run a big office like she did, you must have an
good ego, and hers has been deflated quite a bit by this.
This is a humbling experience and her ego needs to be pulled down a few peg
so she walks on earth.
I agree that education is something that is needed. How do we educate people who do not want it. I held forums and discussions with city people and was out to everyone. I had publicly said that if you want to ask me any questions I will find the answers if I didn't know them. I just needed to know what the questions were. For five years I tried to educate my Human Rights Commission, which I was a part of, and they all said they understood and that they were educating themselves in their own way. I had the history of trans people, books, articles even webpages that could be pulled up. I had everything in their hands. When it came down to the vote to put gender identity into our city ordinance, they voted it down. They needed more education. You can give these eduacated people the books, pencils and everything that is needed to learn and if they don't want to, well, it is lost. If Susan Stanton thinks transgender people don't work and they are all guys in dresses, have her look in the mirror. I happen to not think this way. I feel we are a cross section of society. We have our over achievers and under achievers. We have our pretties and our uglies. We have everything in between too. We are people and we are part of society. We are first class citizens in every sense of the word.
Sheila
If nothing else works, you must change the world one person at a time.
I doubt if there was a turn around. I think you have two deals at work here. One, she became a figurehead/spokesperson - not by working her way up the ranks by working in the trenches, but because CNN made her one. Second, there is a pretty clear indication that here politics (conservative by her own admission) did not match her chosen lifestyle. Witness her surprise when her views were not well received. Most public advocacy groups for trans persons strive for inclusiveness. She proposes, and then promotes, elitism.
Or the statement:
"I was totally unprepared for the reaction and rejection of almost everyone who'd been close to me," Susan says. "People I'd known for 20 years won't even talk to me."
Ten minutes reading posts on this (or many other) boards would have informed her (prepared her) that such rejection was a pretty distinct possibility - if not the most likely outcome.
But Kate, you asked me on the other thread why I would not want to meet her, and this is why.
Throughout the interview she came off to me as someone who expected to keep the privilege and not have to pay any price for her decisions. (and by privilege, I mean it in the root of the word, which is literally a "private law" or law relating to a specific individual.) She thought her ex-wife should now be her best GF, and again, a few moments reading real life accounts might have put that idea in doubt.
But the one that really bothers me is the implication that the only work of 'value' is not being the boss, and making $200K a year (in fact, her last salary was $140K). And that is pretty insulting to all the people (a vast majority by the way) who are not making that kind of money.
You know what, far from her 'life being over' (and that's drama queen city to say it like that) perhaps the very best thing for Susan is to spend a year or two as a janitor, or a waitress. I'm sure she would find, as many in this country do day in and day out, that she would not have to give up her 16 hour days, working for minimum wage almost forces you to work that much just to be able to afford some crummy room and Kraft dinners.
On the other hand, as many of us who do it know & like Morgan Freeman said in Bruce Almighty:
Nothin' wrong with rollin' up your sleeves, son. People underestimate the benefits of good old fashioned manual labor. There's a freedom to it. Happiest people in the world stink like hell at the end of the day.
There's definitely some sense of privilege she has expressed from the get-go.
I recall her being quoted in the St. Pete Times for the story that outed her that she was shocked they had found out (the paper that is.) Yet she also extolled her own administrative style as being 'on top of everything.' Got the sense she was something of an autocrat who wasn't particularly accepting of other's mistakes.
Experience tells me that such bosses may be really, really good ones in a lot of ways, but they don't inspire deep loyalty from most.
She had told her staff what she was going to do and then seemed shocked someone had called the papers. Just didn't seem very realistic for a person who was supposed to be that, realistic, that is.
We all have those learning curves when we start this process. I have thought her expectation of the way she should be treated and what this meant was most naive. But, I also think she shouldn't just be rejected and have her face rubbed in her mistakes.
To learn she is going to have to incorporate those mistakes and try to find ways to change them. Like most of us, she probably will have a hard time saying she was mistaken in her notions, her tactics, etc. First off, she has almost no experience I have found that she has ever done that in her previous life.
I don't think she or anyone else 'deserves' to be a pariah, though. All that teaches anyone is bitterness and despair. I've never noticed too many folks who have had a serious lack in that regard.
I think some compassionate and understanding education and experience is a great idea, both for the student and for the would-be teachers.
N~
Quote from: Keira on January 02, 2008, 11:23:07 AM
This is a humbling experience and her ego needs to be pulled down a few peg
so she walks on earth.
Exactly what I was thinking... what you and Tekla have said. And why I say I don't know if she's gonna make it, because IMHO on top of all the other losses, I wonder if she can take losing MALE privilege now? Her ego is being shredded - but only because she won't let go of it. Being a woman in this society IS a humbling experience in many ways. It almost seems like she expected to literally be the same person to everyone, with just different clothes. And it just doesn't work that way.
The "men in dresses" comment was a bit much though. She took all the verbal abuse thrown at her in the beginning and remained such a classy woman, never retaliating... but now insults "her own kind?"
~Kate~
My partner Nickie and I have had several dealings with Susan Stanton, and Nickie sent a "Letter to the Editor" at the St. Petersburg Times, the original publisher of this story. I don't know yet if it will be published, but here is the text:
I have never written to the Times before, but here goes. I understand only too well Susan's plight. First, she states that she has no friends. Being Trans is not a choice, but not having friends is. Most of the Trans people I know have lots of close and trusted friends, because they want to. I have personally shown up at nearly every event in Pinellas County where she has spoken, and have spoken out to the City Commission against firing her. She has been invited more than once to become a part of the local trans community, and has always refused.
Second, she states that she is not comfortable around other transgendered people because they appear as men in dresses. Who has she been hanging around with? Most of the Trans women I know do NOT appear as men in dresses. Maybe she's not comfortable with herself, either.
Third, she said she'd end it all if she can't work as a City Manager again. I call that a cop out. I lost a whole career coming out, and I went back to school and got another one, learning to live on a fourth of what I used to make in the meantime. I say, "Get tough, girl".
And fourth, Susan thinks we're not ready for equal rights. How else are we supposed to prove ourselves? Susan may be in the limelight now, but I think it is time for it to stop. She truly does NOT represent the Trans community. I welcome her comments; I would really like to know her agenda.
And remarks like ""I'm not some drag queen in a pink miniskirt with 6-inch heels. And I'm not Aunt Bee."
And (outside of clubs - which are special deals) where exactly is she seeing that? I don't. The entire 'men in a dress' is what my friend calls "the privilege of passing" and not everyone has it. In very PC terms its called "lookism.'
And I'm not fond of 'bringing people down a peg' but life does that, sometimes with wonderful results. She has great skill sets I'm sure, and they could be put to work in all sort of other ways. As Maria von Trapp said several times in her autobiography (the basis for The Sound of Music) - and since she is a person of faith she might take it to heart - "wherever god closes a door he opens a window."
And its not just being a ->-bleeped-<-. Lots of people find themselves out of work at that age and have to find a new direction.
I just don't get her at all... it has to be self esteem issues.
Maybe it's the activist in me speaking, but if you're going to be such a public figure, you really owe something to the people who come after you. She was in a rare position; in most cases, one cannot prove that it was because one was trans that one was fired/not hired. She clearly had a good lawsuit and could have made a major contribution to the community. I'm sorry, but she sold out. Maybe it didn't matter to her, I'm sure she had some serious coin saved from her massive salary. But many transpeople struggle to find work even at minimum wage, and she could have done something about that.
It has to be a matter of self esteem.
Lia
Quote from: genovais on January 02, 2008, 12:55:51 PM
She clearly had a good lawsuit and could have made a major contribution to the community.
I think her reasoning was that she put her community (local, not TS) above her personal issues... and didn't want to cost the people any more time, publicity or money because of her. I thought that was rather noble of her.
QuoteI'm sorry, but she sold out.
She did a LOT before falling into this new cynical point in her life. Countless interviews in papers and television explaining our condition, lobbying, etc. She did what she could until she broke from the strain and loss.
And for all she did, now she's being booed and told she didn't do enough. I know it seems she's turned on the community, but she's in TROUBLE... I wish the community would put aside THEIR pride a bit and help HER now.
~Kate~
I think she has to take the first step and reach out. I think its hard for any community (no matter how defined) to reach out to someone who says "I'm not like you."
Quote from: genovais on January 02, 2008, 12:55:51 PMShe was in a rare position; in most cases, one cannot prove that it was because one was trans that one was fired/not hired. She clearly had a good lawsuit and could have made a major contribution to the community.
Actually, the odds of her winning a lawsuit were considered iffy, even by her own attorneys. Florida is a right-to-work state, and her contract included a clause that stated that she served at the pleasure of the city commission. In addition, she was very hopeful of being hired as a city manager somewhere else, and saw a lawsuit against the city as something that would make any municipality much less likely to hire her.
Ahem...well...Susan has not been rejected by the Trans community here. She rejected us. She makes me think that she is secretly working for the religious right. I did admire her decision not to sue the City for firing her. The Commission was set upon by a LOUD and angry mob, before the Trans community, local sympathetic clergy, the NCLR or Equality Florida could step in. To further prove that she is not in step with her community, when asked to speak at the local Transgender Day of Remembrance Service, all she talked about was herself...much to the consternation of some of the Trans people in attendance. How much of this came from being self centered vs. came from a lack of knowledge about what the ceremony is for?
Quote from: Kate on December 31, 2007, 10:59:28 AMI'm not a fan of an inclusive-ENDA, but I was surprised to hear HER say that.
What do you mean by this?
She (Stanton) sounds like the next big spokesperson for HRC.
Quote from: SusanK on January 02, 2008, 09:06:19 AM...which we still have to remember, she wasn't outed, she came out all by herself.
That's not entirely true. She had come out to a few people, in advance of implementing a full transition plan, and apparently one of them outed her to the St. Petersburg Times. She was then contacted by the Times, informed that they were going to run the story, and asked for her response.
Quote from: nickie on January 02, 2008, 02:58:07 PM
Quote from: Kate on December 31, 2007, 10:59:28 AMI'm not a fan of an inclusive-ENDA, but I was surprised to hear HER say that.
What do you mean by this?
A discussion that usually ends up with hurt feelings...
But I go back-and-forth between wanting protections for everyone, yet not necessarily thinking TSs should be included under the GLB banner since it makes it seem like our motivations are sexually (as a verb) driven.
But since reading Susan's latest quotes and seeing the arrogance in them, I'm seeing that arrogance in myself too. Seems I got lucky, and haven't had any problems with discrimination, so it's really easy for me to sit here and say I don't need ENDA or the GLB community.
But considering everything that happened to her, you'd think she'd be on the front lines of the inclusive-ENDA fight. And yet she gave up on it, and pushed herself away from "those people" for whatever reason.
I dunno, ever since posting some mean things about this on another thread, I've been trying to figure myself out too. I don't like myself being like that/this, and don't want to be that kind of person. Apparently I still have some inner issues to figure out...
~Kate~
Quote from: nickie on January 02, 2008, 02:46:24 PM
Ahem...well...Susan has not been rejected by the Trans community here. She rejected us. ... To further prove that she is not in step with her community, when asked to speak at the local Transgender Day of Remembrance Service, all she talked about was herself...much to the consternation of some of the Trans people in attendance. How much of this came from being self centered vs. came from a lack of knowledge about what the ceremony is for?
Huh? Now how could anyone be so blind as not to know what THAT is all about? Does she really think that her firing is on a par with people who have bled out in hospitals and been murdered, raped repeatedly and otherwise tortured?
Someone said earlier they thought that maybe she thought it was all a matter of changing her name and then moving right along as if she were still Steve. ... maybe?
Quote from: LostInTime on January 02, 2008, 03:08:24 PM
She (Stanton) sounds like the next big spokesperson for HRC.
Damn, you ARE good, LIT. Perfect.
N~
I would think that the suit was iffy too. And she was correct that any legal action on her part would greatly limit her future job choices. (And that's not just a management deal, for many companies its an insurance issue also). And they gave her a fat 'golden parachute' - that's the bird in the hand that is worth more than two in the bush deal. And, lacking any sort of strong trans protection act, an 'at will' contract in a 'right to (no) work' state is almost always going to be upheld in court, much less an 'at the pleasure of' clause. She signed that contract, she can't do much about that. And, certainly a city manager would be knowledgeable as to the exact legal ramifications of such language in a contract. Matter of fact, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that she had her senior executive level staff sign off on similar language when they were hired. (People who work at top jobs in the White House are asked - often, as the first thing they do - to write a letter of resignation with a blank date, just to re-enforce that 'at the pleasure of' language. i.e. "your done here as soon as I fill in today's date.)
In the DoR speech, like some of her other talks, she does demonstrate a failure of the first rule of public speaking - know who you are talking to and why. Had she gone in and said "I know this is not going to be popular, but its what I feel I must say.." (in which case she would not be surprised that she got 'booed' but would have not only expected it, but would have planned for it) she would have had my upmost respect and admiration even if I disagreed with 105% of what she said. I'm very fond of people who tell the truth as they know it, even if they are wrong. Heck, I've been there.
I wish she would have reached out and found me a few years ago when I could have at least made suggestions in the direction of 'things she might want to read, because she might want to know what others have been through - at the very least." I could have pointed her in any number of directions that might have at least made her understand something a bit different than what she thought. I've been helped Big-Time throughout the years by all the drag-queens, old queens, TS/CD/TG, GG, andro, gay, lesbian, who knows and whatevers, and all-the-others too, I've met. But to get that acceptance that leads to insight, analysis, information or even true knowledge, you have to give it first in common practice. You have to join in, be a part, participate, 'be here now,' and be on their level, in their space, and not expect them to move to yours. This I know.
And I'm not 'booing' her, though had she made some of those statements in front of me, I would have. At a public event - & giving a speech is a public event in a democratic and pluralistic nation - the audience is entitled to whatever response they feel is correct, or feel moved to express. And I'm not about to give up my right to tell a public speaker what I think of their views, no matter who I am, no matter what they are. Any good public speaker can at least defend their positions I would think (so would Plato).
I'm sure she was not accustomed to anyone ever contradicting her in any manner, as is per standard practice when dealing with your boss who has control over your job, your pay, your advancement, and your career. I'm not the only person who has ever been in an environment where the boss man or boss lady comes in and chews everyone out and does that "Yadda, Yadda, Yadda" deal where everyone is going "Yes boss, no boss, sure thing boss" only to call them some very naughty names and suggest some pretty vile, if not anatomically impossible acts, the instant they leave the room. We have ALL been there.
Though its taught in every B-School and management class she seemed to forget that 'people respect the position not the personality." (that's really important here, so I put it in bold) It never dawned on her that all those people who knew her and were nice, well when you control jobs, salary, advancement, 'plum assignments,' and $$$contracts$$$$ that can be $AWESOMELY$ ($fantastically$ - civic contracts are often absurd, as anyone who has been involved with the problem of government costs knows) lucrative$$$$$ that people might be being nice to you because they're just looking out for number one, and number one ain't you?
And, if your looking for some sympathy here in the USA, in 2007, don't cry at me because your not making $140K and can't keep up that standard of living.
(And, Kate, these things were also bothering me when I said, 'gee, I would not really want to know her." But I say again, I don't reject people in real life. Had I met her, if I met her, I would/will be very gracious as such is my nature. Still, I tend to have a lot more sympathy for people who just got the short end of the stick, and tried to work that, then people who made choices without thinking them through or investigating (like in a google age that is very hard either) what is possible given that choice.
Susan Stanton Doesn't Support Trans Rights?
http://www.queerty.com/susan-stanton-doesnt-support-trans-rights-20080102/
01/02/2008
We're truly disturbed. Susan Stanton, the former Largo, Florida city manager who left her job after transitioning from male to female, made some comments recently that make us question our unwavering support for her decision.
>i'm sorry but i think that people are picking on her ::)<
That's not entirely true. She had come out to a few people, in advance of implementing a full transition plan, and apparently one of them outed her to the St. Petersburg Times. She was then contacted by the Times, informed that they were going to run the story, and asked for her response.
Its seems to be someone who worked under her. No matter if it was revenge for a bad job evalu, or a chance of promotion, that office politics, and not my business. If you work in a very public - and, in theory at least, nothing is supposed to be more public than government, local government at that, setting, then your life is (and should be) a very public matter.
Quote from: tekla on January 02, 2008, 05:52:11 PM
If you work in a very public - and, in theory at least, nothing is supposed to be more public than government, local government at that, setting, then your life is (and should be) a very public matter.
As someone who works in a very public setting as a professor employed by the State of Texas, I would certainly hope that your blanket proclamation is not quite so sweeping as it sounds. You surely don't mean that every city employee, right down to the dog-catcher, may have his or her private life put on the cover of the city paper just because they draw their paycheck from the local government, do you? The 'very' in 'very public' can be used to catch just about anyone, from my postal carrier (I see him every single day, as does everyone in the neighborhood) to my kids' elementary school teachers (very visible).
A) so what? Its her decision, and if she wants to change it, its her right. The most basic human right of all is the right change your mind.
B)You are fair game when you let a camara crew from a news network make you out to be a "Big Time Trans Posterchild" (and take money for it) when none of the T-people up to that point were deamed passible enough, pretty enough, or white enough to fill their newscasts.
It struck me today that she might be taking a more conservative stance in her public utterances in order to make her finding a job easier. It could be that the people who decide on those things, like whom to hire to run a city, are afraid to hire a "GLBT activist" so she's saying those things to distance herself from the community.
Just a thought . . .
hugs & smiles
Emelye
Quote from: Annie Social on January 02, 2008, 03:09:35 PM
That's not entirely true. She had come out to a few people, in advance of implementing a full transition plan, and apparently one of them outed her to the St. Petersburg Times. She was then contacted by the Times, informed that they were going to run the story, and asked for her response.
That's true, but she also walked into the city council meeting in full dress and full public view to officially announce her intent to everyone. And if the media was told in advance, it's likely some of them would have been there anyway, maybe just not bigger market media, along with the normal public crowd that attends these meetings. But considering the extreme change it would make, she should have known all of her staff would not keep it secret.
I'm not sure she had any choice if she wanted to come out. She followed the best plan she could. I don't have a problem with that and think she didn't deserve to be fired, and she makes a good example for ENDA. It's what's she done and said afterward that I have criticism about, especially consider her income including a year's severance pay, she should have gone quiet while she sorted things out in her new life.
I wonder had she done that, she might have had a good chance with her resume to find another job as a city manager (she was in the final group for one?). But going so public, she pretty much flushed her old career down the toliet. Who's going to hire a very public city manger who will be in a CNN documentary.
And sadly from what I've read elsewhere she had a lot of support and advice from quite a few media-experienced transwomen, and she choose not to heed let alone follow it. So where was her head? I hope she gets things together, but she's not off to a good start.
--Susan--
A) Surely I did not equate a professor at a state college or university with a dogcatcher? I've been away from academia long enough not to bend reality that far. Would you not, my professor, refer to that as a "reducto ad absurdum" if one of your little ones gave it to you? Likewise, a city manager, far above a poor professor, stranded in their garret with only the bicycle from the Goodwill to transport you back and fourth, is at a slightly higher rank than dogcatcher (unless that dogcatcher makes $140K per year, in which case, hey!!! I'm really, really good with dogs.)
B), a professor at a state institution is not drawing his paycheck from a local government.
C) Wow? Where have you been? Do you know that its a lot harder to get into an K-8 teaching job - particularly as a male - than ANY higher education job? Fewer background checks for sure. And yeah, for the record, I do want to know what kind of people are teaching my kids, and I do think I have some say in that too as a parent. Bet you think the same thing.
I don't think she'll get a similar job anywhere anytime soon no matter what she says, unless she goes in very liberal northern california or somewhere else like that. Most places don't want that kind of spotlight; its something she hasn't quite understood I think.
Its not her political views which causes her problems, but her very existence on earth. That's why being stealth is not such a bad idea in my view, though in her case, it would be very hard to do unless the national media let go of her and she changes her name or something.
Of course had she been the city manager for Larkspur, or San Mateo, or Pacifica, I bet she would not have been fired in the first place. But, and this is huge, as a conservative (Florida Republican) she would never get those jobs in the first place, not owing to any trans issue, but to her politics - and we talking about a political position.
I think her judgement has been shown again and again to be, well, not very good.
She comes across to me right now as someone who went into transition 1) in a very public way and 2) without much good guidance and 3) not accepting of any good guidance that was offered her.
Basically, she has acted as if all she was doing was changing her hairstyle and the way she dressed and that she is still the same as she was before. IOW, she walks with all her male-, social- and political-presumptions of her place in the world intact. Exactly what she bemoans and denigrates: "a man in a dress."
Like Reza Pahlavi (the Shah of Iran) & Antonio Somoza (the Nicaraguan dictator) she still thinks all of her prerogatives are still in-place.
I feel for her. She's been used, but I also feel she contrived in the using herself. Lack of preparation and refusal to heed good advice. Of course it's difficult. It's difficult for everyone who undertakes a transition. I'd hate to see her be no more than an object-lesson, but it looks like that's where she's heading.
As for hiring her as a city-manager? I wouldn't, not right now. Her judgement has been lacking throughout this circus. From her original announcements and the way she perceived those she did tell to her current attempts to place the genie back into the bottle. Given that would I want her managing my village, let alone a city? No.
Many of us go into this with some rather vague and silly notions of just how we are going to make the transition. Many are rather successful, perhaps not out in the limelight of celebrity, but as people who maintain or re-obtain employment and manage to make a life we can live with.
If she would simply spend about two years in TS graduate school with people like Calpernia Addams, Lynn Conway and Jenny Boylan... (I'm sure she would think of the more celebrated as her peers) heck, with Tink, Kate and Keira ... she might get a clue as to how to be more successful.
Nichole
Quote from: tekla on January 02, 2008, 06:33:58 PM
A) Surely I did not equate a professor at a state college or university with a dogcatcher? I've been away from academia long enough not to bend reality that far. Would you not, my professor, refer to that as a "reducto ad absurdum" if one of your little ones gave it to you? Likewise, a city manager, far above a poor professor, stranded in their garret with only the bicycle from the Goodwill to transport you back and fourth, is at a slightly higher rank than dogcatcher (unless that dogcatcher makes $140K per year, in which case, hey!!! I'm really, really good with dogs.)
B), a professor at a state institution is not drawing his paycheck from a local government.
C) Wow? Where have you been? Do you know that its a lot harder to get into an K-8 teaching job - particularly as a male - than ANY higher education job? Fewer background checks for sure. And yeah, for the record, I do want to know what kind of people are teaching my kids, and I do think I have some say in that too as a parent. Bet you think the same thing.
I'm certainly glad you've clarified your definition of "very public," to be narrowly construed. If the reductio ad absurdum helped ferret out broad generalities (as it apparently did), then its didactic purpose was exactly as intended. Introducing salary at this point is a helpful clarification, as well, which would mean that those of us falling below a certain salary line would be exempt from public scrutiny, i would hope. I don't know what you'd do with a very visible, but poorly paid, public servant, though.
Regarding 'local,' that's an awfully slippery term -- state money doesn't just flow from Austin, but is administered locally at the university, and the local influence is exercised through the university's board of regents, and they've shown over and over to be very concerned with local opinions. In fact, "local' could apply to neighborhood, city, county, utility district, region, and so on. And i don't recall your initial post about holding people accountable to the public saying anything about "local' -- you used the word 'very public" and gave "government" as an example of what 'very public' means.
Your point C contains a lot of wisdom, tekla, but I do not care if one of my kids' teachers wears fetish-wear under their school-marm dresses. You say "what kind of people," and yes, I would agree with you that I am very interested if they have violent tendencies, if they have a criminal record, or if they are bad teachers. But I'd draw the line in defining "what kind of people" at political party, sexual preference, taste in art or music, or any number of irrelevant characteristics.
Quote from: SusanK on December 31, 2007, 08:44:49 AM
Quote from: Karen on December 31, 2007, 12:16:27 AM
She didn't ask for or seek out the celebrity, she was shoved in, chewed up thoroughly and spit out.
What? She walked into the city council meeting with her eyes wide open and knew the possibilities and probabilities, or else she was either very naive, blind or worse. She had a low six figure income and still has an excellent resume, and she can't find a good job recruiter? She has a year severance pay, gets money for speaking engagements and the documentary (I've read they're paying her srs), and she's worried about money? Like she understands the real world of most transwomen?
She did not walk into the meeting with no one aware and just suddenly out herself.
She was outed against her will and then walked into a storm, complete with a media feeding frenzy, not enough supporters, and WAY too many enemies who dropped stuff and made time to come down and pummel her in front of their friends and the nation's media.
I dare anybody to know what awaits you, and still walk into that situation anyway, when it would be so much easier to just run away.
I've seen too many people who've had celebrity thrust upon them thusly. I dare any of you to go through what she went through and remain unscathed. I don't like the quotes Susan Stanton gave, and I don't like it that it appears that HRC has wooed her as their current Token ->-bleeped-<-®™, but I think at this point she needs understanding, support, and good friendship.
Karen
Posted on: January 02, 2008, 09:49:20 PM
Quote from: Nichole W. on January 02, 2008, 11:11:45 AM
I think there are times when all of us may get upset about at least one 'man in a dress.'
Funny you should say that. I had a local girl rave on in my presence about 'virilized ->-bleeped-<-s'. I guess there are those of us who feel ashamed because another chooses to behave in a manner we're afraid will reflect badly on ourselves, rather than just trying to rise above it (if possible.)
Karen
Yes, she was well to do and got outed against her will and had the limelight fall on her. Boo hoo. Her statements only prove what others charged her with when this all happened and that is that she lacked any real character. The spotlight has merely allowed her flaws to be more evident. She is entitled to her opinion and we are entitled to call her on it and let the rest of the world that we do not agree with her very narrow and bigoted views.
Oh and she was right about the lawsuit. I was advised against mine for similar reasons, it would have been impossible to gain employment afterwards.
I agree; as a trans family, we all know how hard transition is, but that doesn't exactly give one a free pass. Like any stigmatized group, some people feel the need to distance themselves from people who look extra-stigmatized. Just like a light skinned black person hating on darker-skinned community members, she has taken the leap and publicly denounced people with less passing privilege than herself. Maybe she feels she needs to do that for her own survival, but it's NOT acceptable.
Lia
Not to put too fine a point on it, folks, but can we stop with the Stanton bashing?
I'm not excusing her for her public opinions nor am I in favor of all she says or does.
BUT! She is one of us! She is a woman with a transsexual condition like myself and so many of us. We are hard pressed right now to find allies and friend in the, now segmented, LGB & T community. We should not be turning on our own sisters or brothers just because they have a differing opinion than others of us!
Get a grip ladies, PLEASE!
-Sandy
Quote from: Kassandra on January 03, 2008, 10:44:08 AM
Not to put too fine a point on it, folks, but can we stop with the Stanton bashing?
I'm not excusing her for her public opinions nor am I in favor of all she says or does.
BUT! She is one of us! She is a woman with a transsexual condition like myself and so many of us. We are hard pressed right now to find allies and friend in the, now segmented, LGB & T community. We should not be turning on our own sisters or brothers just because they have a differing opinion than others of us!
Get a grip ladies, PLEASE!
-Sandy
She is not one of us. She has explicitly stated that she is different than us and referred to the community as a bunch of men in dresses. She has been very damaging recently to the community she is so eager to ship us off and frankly I am not going to pity her. She is completely responsible for her actions and I don't think I could blindly support someone just because they are TS if I dislike the individual.
If she publicly apologized for her remarks then MAYBE I could forgive, but frankly at this point she hasn't earned it.
Charlotte
"I have never written to the Times before, but here goes. I understand only too well Susan's plight. First, she states that she has no friends. Being Trans is not a choice, but not having friends is. Most of the Trans people I know have lots of close and trusted friends, because they want to. I have personally shown up at nearly every event in Pinellas County where she has spoken, and have spoken out to the City Commission against firing her. She has been invited more than once to become a part of the local trans community, and has always refused.
Second, she states that she is not comfortable around other transgendered people because they appear as men in dresses. Who has she been hanging around with? Most of the Trans women I know do NOT appear as men in dresses. Maybe she's not comfortable with herself, either.
Third, she said she'd end it all if she can't work as a City Manager again. I call that a cop out. I lost a whole career coming out, and I went back to school and got another one, learning to live on a fourth of what I used to make in the meantime. I say, "Get tough, girl".
And fourth, Susan thinks we're not ready for equal rights. How else are we supposed to prove ourselves? Susan may be in the limelight now, but I think it is time for it to stop. She truly does NOT represent the Trans community. I welcome her comments; I would really like to know her agenda."
I think that Annie Social has made some very good points here. But really, I was just reading a section about Susan Stanton, where she had commented about the fact that she had been approached by the press and had been asked if he was thinking about changing his sex and he (impulsively) said "YES". Now Steve could have stopped a lot of things from going into effect if he had simply siad "NO" . By doing that it would have given him more time to play with and things wouldn't ahve been so tough on him. But because of his impulsiveness to say YES everything just got sped up and now he's living a miserable life with no job and no friends.
Gina
Quote from: Kassandra on January 03, 2008, 10:44:08 AM
Not to put too fine a point on it, folks, but can we stop with the Stanton bashing?
I'm not excusing her for her public opinions nor am I in favor of all she says or does.
BUT! She is one of us! She is a woman with a transsexual condition like myself and so many of us. We are hard pressed right now to find allies and friend in the, now segmented, LGB & T community. We should not be turning on our own sisters or brothers just because they have a differing opinion than others of us!
Get a grip ladies, PLEASE!
-Sandy
I absolutely agree, Sandy. That "We should not be turning on our own sisters or brothers just because they have a differing opinion than others of us!"
And, to be very honest, what Susan Stanton says and doesn't say does not affect my life in a direct way. I imagine she didn't have me in mind when she said those things.
The difficulty with public statements by public persons is that they are seen and heard by way more people than 'just us." If she were here on this board I would say she has a right to say what she thinks, as long as she thinks before she says it where others can read it.
There is always some limitation to 'free speech.' We all like to declare that we are "honestly speaking," but there are points where we leave honesty in the main to be honestly peevish and even derogatory. And those are the times we need to think before we say something that is going to be terribly hurtful to others we know are reading/listening.
O, I get angry too, and do not always take into myself a consideration for others who might be hurt by what I do say or write. I do say things occasionally I absolutely KNOW are going to hurt someone else. And I mean to do it because I am angry or spiteful with them or because i am simply frustrated at being badgered myself. I imagine we all do that.
So, in some ways I do understand the 'why' of why she might have said the things she did say. But, if I 'go-off' at some public forum and lambast an entire group of people in my frustration I would expect to not only be 'called' on it, but to have them retaliate in kind toward me.
That, Susan is TS I have no doubt. That she is a public figure is beyond argument. But with the public figure also comes public accountability. And she is being called to task not for making statements in private that might hurt me or you or other people she has no clue even exist. She is being called to task for making sweeping and hurtful statements about people who, just like herself, have no say in who and what we are. And she is doing so to reporters and interviewers who she absolutely KNOWS are going to publicize the remarks.
Again, her naivete in these matters calls her judgement into question. That she is going to be raised up as a 'leader' with naivete and callous disregard intact is more the pity. Just as the raising up of Quisling in Norway in the 1940s was a pity.
I understand saving oneself. It's a pretty natural part of being human. But to openly and meanly disregard the faces you are walking over as you 'save yourself' is not the way to win 'support' from those you are trying to walk over.
From her remarks one suddenly gets the impression that she is saying "I am not one of THOSE people." Or "I am not a ->-bleeped-<-." Well, it's fine with me she thinks that way, if she does. For her to have her opinions is not the question.
For TSes to have opinions about her is something she has invited. Now, she, and we, need to live with that. I think we misplace our senses of who owes or acknowledges whom in this instance. She has sown the wind, that the whirlwind rises out of the earth before her should not surprise anyone at all. Nor should the whirlwind be condemned. THAT she has brought about herself.
Nichole
Quote from: Susan on January 02, 2008, 09:30:52 AM
I know Natasha didn't post that article so my comments are not directed at her, but at people like Kelli Busey the writer. Look people education is the key with people like Susan Stanton rather than spraying venom. Don't bash, don't slam, just explain, it will work much better in the long run. As we educate Susan, we can also advance the progress of educating the American public.
Nevertheless, I understand the anger.
The best advice I can give is, "Don't get angry; get organized."
Quote from: Kate on January 02, 2008, 10:35:43 AM
What do you think happened to her?
For awhile there, she was THE figurehead for TS Rights and all, speaking everywhere, doing interviews and shows, trying to point out that we're just ordinary people.
Now all the sudden she's given up on everything, thinks she's special and different than the "men in dresses" she met, and so on.
Why the sudden total turn-around?
~Kate~
Not a turn-around. I heard disquieting rumors about her from the beginning.
Quote from: Kate on January 02, 2008, 01:15:31 PM
Quote from: genovais on January 02, 2008, 12:55:51 PM
She clearly had a good lawsuit and could have made a major contribution to the community.
I think her reasoning was that she put her community (local, not TS) above her personal issues... and didn't want to cost the people any more time, publicity or money because of her. I thought that was rather noble of her.
Perhaps. Or it could have been that there were other reasons for being fired that wouldn't have looked so good.