I'm wondering because I'm out in public as myself but at home and with my family, I'm very much still "in transition" to them. I mean I am still transitioning and will be for a while, but publicly, how do I know that strangers are or aren't aware?
I don't mind either way, I'm just curious at what point do you realize you're "passing"?
It just seems like such a black/white thing but I can't wrap my mind around it. Again, it could be because my family isn't fully accepting which messes with my mind... I don't think I pass, I'm just wondering.
Sorry I know this is a bit convoluted, or at least my wording is, but I have to ask.
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Quote from: Allison S on October 04, 2018, 01:27:11 PM
I'm wondering because I'm out in public as myself but at home and with my family, I'm very much still "in transition" to them. I mean I am still transitioning and will be for a while, but publicly, how do I know that strangers are or aren't aware?
I don't mind either way, I'm just curious at what point do you realize you're "passing"?
It just seems like such a black/white thing but I can't wrap my mind around it. Again, it could be because my family isn't fully accepting which messes with my mind... I don't think I pass, I'm just wondering.
Sorry I know this is a bit convoluted, or at least my wording is, but I have to ask.
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@Allison S Dear Allison... Passing successfully depends on much more than female facial and physical appearance.... as you already know it also depends on body movements and mannerisms, sitting, walking, eating, inter-reaction with others, speech patterns and voice pitch, hair styles, cosmetic enhancements, etc.
As it relates to the Subject Title of this thread
"How do you know when "passing" happens?" ... let me put it this way.... you will
clearly know and it will be
most obvious to you when it
Doesn't Happen and you don't pass.The very important thing that I want to say to you, is to not wait until you think you will be perfect and will 100% pass.... get out and about and be ready to learn from some mistakes and failures that will help you to continue refining your appearance and all the other factors that I mentioned.
Passing is not a black/white thing, there are stages that one goes through as more frequent successes build more confidence and self-assurance..
Wishing you well......
Hugs,
Danielle
Without ESP, you can only guess if you're passing. What you can tell is if you're getting acceptance and respect.
Those of us in the 'passing lane' are here to help you and offer tips on anything you may have questions about. :)
And honestly, from the way you worded things, I think you're probably passing. ;) I cant be 100% certain of that assessment, of course, but as the other replies here mentioned, if you're being treated with respect, and people aren't staring at you like the door to Narnia just opened on your face, you're probably doing alright!
Quote from: Allison S on October 04, 2018, 01:27:11 PMat what point do you realize you're "passing"?
It is extremely difficult to distinguish between a person's receiving the courtesy of being treated as their target gender and actually passing. I have gone to great lengths to "convince" myself I can. It is vital for maintaining the self delusion my mind uses to deceive itself I am two separate people that my female alter knows beyond ANY doubt, People See Her As A Cisgender Woman.
In my disbelieve that anyone could possibly see the same body in different clothes and a little makeup as anything beside unquestionably male, I put my female alter in every situation imaginable the first two years after she became self aware to prove to her I was right. To my astonishment, I Never Could.
I suppose everyone requires a different level of "proof," but these four incidences were irrefutable examples to me that people see my female alter as a woman:
-The first time a toddler reached out her arms out for my female alter to pick her up.
Children instinctively know how to tell the Mama from the "Not the Mama;" their lives depend on it. And unlike adults, they wear their hearts on their sleeves. No child is going to reach out to a woman unless she passes the Mama test.
-The first time a teenager approached my female alter thinking she was her teacher.
Next to children, teen girls have a very critical eye. If someone is going to point or snicker because they think I look like a "man in a dress" it's going to be a gaggle of teenage girls. My female alter gets confused for another woman at least once a month; it has gotten to the point she just plays along rather than explaining the mix up.
-The first time one of my female alter's male friends kissed her on the cheek.
I don't see ANY cigender guy doing that if he had any question about her being a girl.
-The first time the girl next to my female alter in the locker room pulled off her sports bra while the two were chitchatting.
Perhaps there will be a future when different genders are comfortable undressing in the same locker room. But that isn't now.
There is also an aspect of "flight hours" logged. No one has given my female alter as much as a second look in the last several thousand hours of her being out and about living her life. It just isn't possible to come in contact with that many people who would give her the courtesy of being treated as a woman unless she "passed." VA hangs his head in defeat...
I wish I knew, but probably never will. Lol
Devlyn is right: it is not hard to notice if you are getting the acceptance and respect you deserve, but it is impossible to tell without asking (and therefore outing yourself) if you are truly passing.
In some limited contexts, you might be able to tell. I discovered that I pass photographically when someone mistook my photo on Facebook for that of a pastor with the same name. That is a very different thing from passing in real life, though I'll accept it anyway. ;)
I resolved early on that acceptance was my goal, rather than passing.
In my youth I could switch genders without much more than changing my clothes. Those days are history, but along with it I have reached the point where I simply don't give a rat's elbow if others think I pass or not. I know who I am.
I would say maybe when guys start paying attention to you?
When people address you with female pronouns.
When your girl clothes fit correctly.
Passing happens when you go out in public and someone refers to you as your proper gender. Simple, yet complex.
Since starting testosterone nearly two years ago, I now have a beard, a baritone voice and male musculature (YAY!!!), yet I occasionally still get clocked. 95% of the time, I'm gendered correctly, yet clocking still occasionally happens. I usually correct them, and move on.
Maybe the person sees something I don't, some mannerism I haven't changed yet, or maybe the simple fact that I still have relatively slender hands, a babyish face or some other thing I don't notice/haven't changed. Idunno. But for that instant, before I correct them, they saw something female.
So, to make a long story short, you will never know what someone sees when you go out. The only way to truly know is to actually go out.
Good luck!
Ryuichi
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Quote from: Ryuichi13 on October 04, 2018, 03:06:19 PM
So, to make a long story short, you will never know what someone sees when you go out. The only way to truly know is to actually go out.
Exactly!
It's scary as hell at first too.
But if people gender you correctly you're passing. The truth that took me a while to learn is that most (cis) people don't look that closely. If you quack like a duck, waddle like a duck, and look more or less like a duck, then you're a duck in their eyes.
Now if you're worried because you can clock a trans person at 100 paces, just remember that most people don't have the "trans sixth sense." We obsess over the manifestations of human sexual dimorphism, and they never did since they never had to worry about it.
Little stuff like eye contact from women, the personal space women around you need shrinks to a very small distance indeed. I had one absolutely convincing day talking to a woman in an op shop about shoes and 'us women, and 'we'' were very much in evidence. A lot of shop assistants do it as well. Men are more gallant for lack of a better word. The eyes also go well... below the face lol. I think the most convincing day was taking my daughter to a women's suffrage parade and despite being called 'daddy' no one blinked an eye.
I get a feeling of 'being in the club' with women these days and the men stand off a bit more... To me thats passing.
Quote from: Virginia on October 04, 2018, 02:15:19 PM
It is extremely difficult to distinguish between a person's receiving the courtesy of being treated as their target gender and actually passing.
Yes! this ^^^ ;)
10 years post-transition and I still wonder sometimes which it is with people I encounter. But at the same time, I've always been treated as Kate, as if I'm passing, so if I can't tell the difference... is there one? Something of a Turing Test there, lol.
Interestingly, the one time I know I didn't pass with someone was while visiting a friend in a Hospice. On the way out, we encountered an older woman, a patient, who was obviously suffering from mental decline as she was loudly saying all sorts of irrational, unconnected things to the attendants around her. When she saw me, she started going on about "how handsome!" I was, lol. It was curious, as if her mental decline made her immune to the usual cues that somehow cued normal mortals into seeing me as a female. Go figure.
Otherwise, as others mentioned, there are times when you'll know you passed... or didn't. But I don't think it's possible to know for sure in every situation. Obviously if you've accumulated years of experience with no obvious questioning, you can at least bet you've been passing, but even then... every encounter is unique. The next person might always be the one who "reads" you. For me though, personally, the worry has mostly only faded with time and experience.
It "might" be somewhat of a mystery to know for sure if your are convincingly passing...
.... BUT beyond a shadow of a doubt you will surely know if you DON'T pass.
Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on October 04, 2018, 09:47:42 PM
It "might" be somewhat of a mystery to know for sure if your are convincingly passing...
.... BUT beyond a shadow of a doubt you will surely know if you DON'T pass.
Amen to that sister. We live in a binary world and there are NO shortage of people who will misgender you if they think that you were assigned male at birth. There are tons of people who just aren't nice and don't give a darn about your feelings.
Rule of thumb, if you're having a hard time remembering the last time you were misgendered then call it good and be thankful.
Quote from: Janes Groove on October 04, 2018, 10:02:24 PM
Amen to that sister. We live in a binary world and there are NO shortage of people who will misgender you if they think they perceive that you were assigned male at birth. There are tons of people who just aren't nice and don't give a darn about your feelings.
Rule of thumb, if you're having a hard time remembering the last time you were misgendered then call it good and be thankful.
↑ THIS!
I was misgendered a month or two ago, but I don't remember the situation, nor do I care. [emoji6]
Ryuichi
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I'd love to chime in on this topic even though I have far less experience passing than most people here.
I've been full time for two months now and I've spent a lot of it worrying about how well I pass. Constantly second guessing my voice and my mannerisms as well as my personal appearance. Then I had an experience that really helped put things into perspective.
So, back when I went full time I threw away all my old clothes except for my workout clothes. After all, when I go running I'm just trying to exercise, not socialize. I would go running in the park in the morning by myself and usually for about half an hour at a time.
Well, thanks to everyone's suggestions in another thread I decided to join a gym recently and I wore my (male) workout clothes when I went there. The difference was absolutely amazing to me! When I went out in guy clothes for the first time in months suddenly I found everyone staring at me like I looked totally weird, lol. It made me remember that for a while these kinds of stares were just my normal, everyday life and I hadn't even realized when they had stopped happening.
So I guess I'm going to echo what others have said in this thread and just say that you can't know for sure if you're passing, but it's kind of obvious when you don't pass. :P
Oh yeah, and one other thing. You said that passing is a black/white thing, but I really don't see it that way. The way I see it when someone looks at you they'll either see:
1. a cis man
2. a trans man
3. someone ambiguous
4. a trans woman
or
5. a cis woman
What someone sees depends on their own perceptions as well as your appearance, that's why we still get clocked sometimes no matter what we look like. I figure as long as people see me as either 4 (trans woman) or 5 (cis woman) then I'm happy ;D
I usually get gendered correctly and treated as a woman so that's passing for me.
Starting my transition at 54yo and being over 6 foot tall, I doubt I'm often assumed to be cis, especially if I speak.
If you're going to define passing as having people assuming you to be cis, you're never going to pass with your family. They know, so all you can ask is that they refer to and treat you as you identify.
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Quote from: TonyaW on October 04, 2018, 10:35:38 PM*snip*
Starting my transition at 54yo and being over 6 foot tall,
I'm glad I'm not the only one that started transitioning at 54/over 50! Unfortunately, I'm only 5'7&1/3" /171cm, so I'm a relatively short man. Most of the women in my local transgender support group tower over me! :o
Ryuichi
Michelle Duff said it best.One day she had to do an errand on the other side of town, it was only when she got home she realised there were no rude remarks or pointing etc
I haven't been on here hardly at all lately with such a full schedule. On that note, thanks Danielle, and others, for the kind words over on the other threads I never replied to!
I see this has been covered a bit, but a couple large factors I noticed... were not getting mis-gendered after a point, and the way guys were treating me. Yes, women treated me differently as well, and in a good way. But when men started asking me out, buying me gifts etc it was more evident that something had changed. This, I should add, went hand in hand with me not really caring so much what the heck people were thinking. Confidence in yourself goes a long way in others perception.
Andi[emoji258][emoji272][emoji179][emoji137]♀️(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181005/1877a2249df84dd5342f5742b646d830.jpg)
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Quote from: big kim on October 05, 2018, 02:17:01 AM
Michelle Duff said it best.One day she had to do an errand on the other side of town, it was only when she got home she realised there were no rude remarks or pointing etc
^ This
One day you go to shop and realize no one looks at you funny... you just blend in. It feels really odd after being looked at all the time.
Quote from: kgreen on October 04, 2018, 09:42:20 PMWhen she saw me, she started going on about "how handsome!"
Even this can be explained within the bounds of reason. It was common to call a women "handsome" in the the early 1900's, so the older woman may have been paying you a compliment. Also a common side effect of stroke is using antonym of the word you intend. My Mother always referred to the woman in the bed next to her as a "man." Similarly she called called my father her "son" and said "day" when she meant hour. A bit confusing at first but she was consistent so once I realized what was going on we communicated just fine.
Wow! This is my best thread yet because I see positivity...for once lol
Thanks everyone for your responses. It means a lot to a new gal like me...
I don't really know if I pass as a cis women. Part of me just wants the next few days to pass and for my family, well mostly my sister, to not hate me for not attending a baptism. It's a very important day, yes. But my family has to understand that I just made a year on hrt and if I can't go as myself, as female, then I won't at all.
I've just about thrown out all my male clothing and I'm not buying anymore. There's no way. My mom is the worst she expects me to go by what she wants and insists I'll do what she says (or dress how she wants me to) and that I'll go. My mom is just angry because she knows if I don't go (thus, making a fool out of myself in turn. It's clear I don't look like I did last year), then it'll make her look bad. I intend to only see these people when I want and on my terms.
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Quote from: Allison S on October 05, 2018, 02:32:31 PM
Wow! This is my best thread yet because I see positivity...for once lol
Thanks everyone for your responses. It means a lot to a new gal like me...
I don't really know if I pass as a cis women. Part of me just wants the next few days to pass and for my family, well mostly my sister, to not hate me for not attending a baptism. It's a very important day, yes. But my family has to understand that I just made a year on hrt and if I can't go as myself, as female, then I won't at all.
I've just about thrown out all my male clothing and I'm not buying anymore. There's no way. My mom is the worst she expects me to go by what she wants and insists I'll do what she says (or dress how she wants me to) and that I'll go. My mom is just angry because she knows if I don't go (thus, making a fool out of my own self. It's clear I don't look like I did last year), then it'll make her look bad. I intend to only see these people when I want and on my terms.
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@Allison SDear Allison:Thank you.... your comment is a very good response to this conversation on your thread.
Yes indeed you do not look the same as you once did, a full year of HRT has made that happen...
.... and to prevent issues for your mom and family... and yourself, you certainly have to do what you have to do.
Please, if you feel so led, let us all know what happens with all of this.
We are all rooting for you, we are your biggest fans.
Hugs,
Danielle
Quote from: Allison S on October 05, 2018, 02:32:31 PM
Wow! This is my best thread yet because I see positivity...for once lol
Thanks everyone for your responses. It means a lot to a new gal like me...
I don't really know if I pass as a cis women. Part of me just wants the next few days to pass and for my family, well mostly my sister, to not hate me for not attending a baptism. It's a very important day, yes. But my family has to understand that I just made a year on hrt and if I can't go as myself, as female, then I won't at all.
I've just about thrown out all my male clothing and I'm not buying anymore. There's no way. My mom is the worst she expects me to go by what she wants and insists I'll do what she says (or dress how she wants me to) and that I'll go. My mom is just angry because she knows if I don't go (thus, making a fool out of myself in turn. It's clear I don't look like I did last year), then it'll make her look bad. I intend to only see these people when I want and on my terms.
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Allison,
There will always be tough decisions to make in life, and many people want to try to please their parents when possible, because, in reality, many are grateful and appreciative for what their parents, overall, have done for them.
In your case you have transitioned and you are now Allison. In your shoes, I would want to be accepted as Allison. I understand your position completely. I would want to attend as Allison.
In regards to passing, there have been a number of insightful comments posted in this thread by thoughtful people. I could mention some writers' names, but then I may leave some out when I should not. Certainly two are Ryuichi13 and Danielle.
I think there comes a point where you will become comfortable with how you believe that you are typically perceived, and if not, perhaps take reasonable and positive further steps that you think will be helpful, or, you will just say, "fooey with them!" There will always be some unkind people, unfortunately, no matter what.
Many of us will not ever achieve the outward beauty possessed by many of the women here, such as Julia, Danielle, Ellie, and many others... (I probably should not have listed any names, as leaving some out is problematic, and I do realize that some of those names are used here in part by multiple people, and perhaps it was indeed wise that I did not use their "user names.") But... we each can make the most of what we do have. There is much more to a person than looks, and passing does involve more than looks too.
I too am rooting for you!
Chrissy
Family, friends and those that knew us before certainly have a harder time, probably best not to go by them. Don't let it discombobulate you. It is a process, one day even the people that know you were not born a girl will laugh at the notion, it's hard to feel like a guy after that. It is not so retroactive for those that knew us before however. I never learned how to deal with that and luckily enough for me my connections were not so strong. When everyone treats you only like your gender for so long that you forget what it is like to be misgendered, you will know. Truth is you will "pass" long before that, it takes a bit to settle in. Breathe in, breathe out, everything begins in uncertainty and yet eventually the certainty of experience is so deeply imbedded that you will have a hard time remembering the uncertainty. Even if someone happens to misgender you.
Quote from: ChrissyRyan on October 05, 2018, 04:46:08 PM
Allison,
There will always be tough decisions to make in life, and many people want to try to please their parents when possible, because, in reality, many are grateful and appreciative for what their parents, overall, have done for them.
In your case you have transitioned and you are now Allison. In your shoes, I would want to be accepted as Allison. I understand your position completely. I would want to attend as Allison.
In regards to passing, there have been a number of insightful comments posted in this thread by thoughtful people. I could mention some writers' names, but then I may leave some out when I should not. Certainly two are Ryuichi13 and Danielle.
I think there comes a point where you will become comfortable with how you believe that you are typically perceived, and if not, perhaps take reasonable and positive further steps that you think will be helpful, or, you will just say, "fooey with them!" There will always be some unkind people, unfortunately, no matter what.
Many of us will not ever achieve the outward beauty possessed by many of the women here, such as Julia, Danielle, Ellie, and many others... (I probably should not have listed any names, as leaving some out is problematic, and I do realize that some of those names are used here in part by multiple people, and perhaps it was indeed wise that I did not use their "user names.") But... we each can make the most of what we do have. There is much more to a person than looks, and passing does involve more than looks too.
I too am rooting for you!
Chrissy
Thank you for the encouragment. But I don't understand what looks has to do with my topic. Thanks for sharing who the people you like are... Yes, there are many beautiful women on this forum.
Quote from: IAmM on October 06, 2018, 03:53:36 AM
Family, friends and those that knew us before certainly have a harder time, probably best not to go by them. Don't let it discombobulate you. It is a process, one day even the people that know you were not born a girl will laugh at the notion, it's hard to feel like a guy after that. It is not so retroactive for those that knew us before however. I never learned how to deal with that and luckily enough for me my connections were not so strong. When everyone treats you only like your gender for so long that you forget what it is like to be misgendered, you will know. Truth is you will "pass" long before that, it takes a bit to settle in. Breathe in, breathe out, everything begins in uncertainty and yet eventually the certainty of experience is so deeply imbedded that you will have a hard time remembering the uncertainty. Even if someone happens to misgender you.
What do you mean it wasn't as "retroactive for those who know us before"? Everything you said is true and helpful. I'm a bit down on myself lately for seeking the approval from strangers in such a weird way. But I do recognize that it happens daily to everyone. It's just that my mom and family are the closest to me in my life. It's been a difficult process for me and I have no friends from before my transition... I just haven't been able to keep up with anyone. It's a bit sad and lonely because I'm used to have friends and knowing them for many years.
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Allison,
I have been reading your posts this year and I know that you have run into many hurtful or unkind experiences and definitely think those peope involved should apologize and realize what they said or did was totally unacceptable. In terms of passing, looks are just one part, perhaps the total female presentation is likely the better word. Going deeper, acceptance is at the core. An "I will always love you but I cannot accept who you now are" is not what is desired.
Yes, there are many here that are beautiful, outside and inside, like you, Laurie, Michele, Kelly, and others. Making a list can only make who you left out stand out so I rarely make any mention of it. What their thoughts are are far more important than their looks regardless.
We have some very kind and thoughtful people here. We are lucky to have them all.
I am not all that good with putting the right words together at all times, so I do not post that much. Some people can express their deep, heartfelt thoughts so well, it is a gift.
Chrissy
A few signs that haven't been mentioned include other women openly talking about their menstrual cycle.
-Several conversations with coworkers where this came up in a conversation about chronic health issues- the quick glance around looking for men and then a whispered conversation.
Strangers and people new to your social circle using female pronouns and assumptions about your past
-My manager at work telling me about difference between my thought process and his in terms of gender norms when growing up.
Physicians asking when your last menstrual cycle was.
-Happens on nearly half of my office visits, even with established providers who I have previously and sometimes repeatedly told I'm transgender
People asking if you have any or planning on having kids.
- Most recently this happened in my preop appointment for tummy tuck and Breast Augmentation. At this point I was in nothing more than my underwear while he was taking measurements. I'm also pre GCS. When I reminded him no kids future or past because I'm transgender his response was "oh yeah, that's right I forgot".
Quote from: Allison S on October 06, 2018, 06:36:12 AM
What do you mean it wasn't as "retroactive for those who know us before"? Everything you said is true and helpful. I'm a bit down on myself lately for seeking the approval from strangers in such a weird way. But I do recognize that it happens daily to everyone. It's just that my mom and family are the closest to me in my life. It's been a difficult process for me and I have no friends from before my transition... I just haven't been able to keep up with anyone. It's a bit sad and lonely because I'm used to have friends and knowing them for many years.
My friends know that I am trans, I prefer not to hide that from the people who are close to me. Most of them I have met since transitioning, my best friend I have known forever but she has always know that I had no interest in girls even though I have never dated men either, hard to keep something like that from a roommate of fifteen years. They don't grasp that I was a guy very well, probably once a month I have to remind one of them that I didn't grow up as a girl. Sometimes it is inconvenient, like being out with a few of them and we go to the bathroom after a couple drinks, the one asks quite loudly from the stall beside me how heavy my periods are now that I am nearing 50 and do I get them every month. Not so bad right? I wish. After it sinks in and she realized her error alcohol compels her to say just as loud that she couldn't imagine me as a guy. She apologized after and there was no harm done, they all have those moments just usually not so public. They know me as a girl and even my best friend that knew me as a guy for 20 years they all at times forget that I haven't always been a girl. For the people that I know now, even though most know that I am trans, my girlhood is retroactive. My family is the exact opposite, they see only the past. It's annoying and satisfying when my brother calls me he and his new wife automatically corrects him, then when he apologizes she says that she doesn't understand how he can look at me and call me he. Kind of a yay, and darn moment all at once. I think that your family will adjust and I understand you not wanting to compromise in the meantime. I can't even imagine trying to go as a guy and my heart goes out to all the girls and guys here that have to live that dual life. Friends will come along if you want them, it seems to be not so easy as we get older and after transition it is even harder I think to hold on to our friends and we have to find new ones. Always the same answer, these things take time. Not something anyone wants to hear right?
You will be okay. 🙂 Just hard to see that sometimes.
Judging from your avatar photo, I think you are very passing! Physically at least! ;)
Most of my female friends that know I'm MtF trans think I pass 100%, even admitting being stunned at how much more beautiful I look when I dress my gender rather than my gender at birth. Even joking being jealous of my body! :D
But I've noticed a different kind of attraction when going out as my gender... notably cis women being much more friendly and open, and cis men being more gentle and careful around me, and I sometime notice some ogling from them! :P
In my LGBT group that I'm new in, I've had to ask some what their gender identity were. I was automagically called a woman when I first entered, some even thinking I was a cis woman even after speaking. And when I was on my way to it, a driver (a woman), opened her window to tell me that I'm very chic. It was a magical moment!
People like to look and see if we are like them like who they would like to be living. I am 5 years after being a man and this is a dark time with many days of being upset and feel the world is ending in my life. But this is the magic of time when I an walked in life after many days of people seeing if I an a women that they think something changed in the days of being. I am female and I feel this and be this in my life with other in my life. I am walking with my head but my beautiful heart and the love is being bright for the days of dark. You Must walk with love and the beauty with light you for all to see.
Dank
Quote from: krobinson103 on October 04, 2018, 08:43:36 PM
Little stuff like eye contact from women, the personal space women around you need shrinks to a very small distance indeed.
Yes. In public buses or train, young ladies sit next to me without hesitation, sometimes touching my shoulders or hips. They do not avoid my eyes. Some strange old women grasp my hands in the street while asking their way.
An interesting thing is that even my female friends, who know very well about me and my family, touch me so easily as they do to their female friends. They seem to treat me as a woman, even though they know I am a dad. One of my old female friends once came into my hotel room, sleeping next to me, without any sexual intent.
barbie~~
Quote from: Allison S on October 04, 2018, 01:27:11 PMI don't mind either way, I'm just curious at what point do you realize you're "passing"?
When I started HRT, I also started dressing in women's khakis and polo shirts. Same idea as my male attire, just women's versions. I figured people would see me dressed appropriately for whatever gender they assumed I was. I took the HRT, and waited and hoped.
There came a day when we were at the oral surgeon's office to have my tooth pulled, and the receptionist called out the names of patients to see if they were there. She called out my male name, I said "here!" and she got visibly annoyed and said "no, I said [male name]."
I was so scared of getting my (first) tooth pulled, I didn't realize what was going on, and went up to the desk whereupon she started arguing with me that I wasn't me and that I couldn't just use someone else's insurance.
My wife had to come up and intercede, explaining the misunderstanding to both of us, lol.
That was my turning point. On the way home we decided to file the documents to initiate the name change ;)
When you no longer care what people say or think about you and you accept who you are. How do you expect others to accept you, if you don't accept yourself. When I look in the mirror I see a beautiful person that has been hiding out most of their life. If I could start over again, fear would never be a factor. When you have confidence in yourself than you will pass.
Quote from: DawnOday on October 10, 2018, 08:38:51 PM
When you no longer care what people say or think about you and you accept who you are. How do you expect others to accept you, if you don't accept yourself. When I look in the mirror I see a beautiful person that has been hiding out most of their life. If I could start over again, fear would never be a factor. When you have confidence in yourself than you will pass.
@DawnOday Dear Dawn: Your reply comment is very well said and your wise advice is something that all transitioners should do but fear and lack of confidence in the early stages of transition before coming out can be a most difficult thing to overcome.
When looking back at those early times and now knowing how it all worked out, it is easier to say that we would have not of let fear and lack of confidence affect us back then, but the mind can be a storehouse of doubt and fear.
The key point that you made is right on:
"When you no longer care what people say or think about you and you accept who you are. How do you expect others to accept you, if you don't accept yourself."Thanks for sharing your wisdom...
Hugs,
Danielle
Passing is really up to the person. Just from this thread I think you see different opinions that each of us may have. I think I blend very well but passing is something I think I resigned myself to maybe some day. Yes most people treat me very well and it does help my self confidence. Back 10-15 years ago people would laugh at me and I got the name calling and snickering. I so glad society has changed some since those days.
Like someone said already, most people don't pay much attention. This is where I think I can blend in but once they start paying attention I'm not passing. I get certain looks that they did read me or the look that they are trying to decide since they think something is off. I would bet that most of us can walk thru a pretty public place and we would "pass" and again because people have other things on their minds and don't pay attention.
Right now, it does feel great when you get gendered correctly. I have two great memories. I was checking into my Dr. for my appt and handed the reception person my medical card with my male name. She looks up and says, No I need your card. That was great, made my day.
I was in Vegas in one of the hotel convenience stores getting a pop and I used my credit card with my feminine name on it. Well in vegas a lot of places want to see an ID with the CC. I showed my license with my male name. The clerk looks up and said, Oh you gave me your husband's ID, I need yours. I loved when that happen.
Julie
Quote from: gemma1977 on October 10, 2018, 04:02:20 PM
Hi there I'm off on a night out what do you think of my top and how dose it look on me and how do my boobs look
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Quote from: gemma1977 on October 10, 2018, 04:05:12 PM
What do you think of my new top dose it do me justice? Getting ready for a night out on the town do my boobs look OK ?
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The top is perfect for a night out! I am thinking either you need a larger size or you are wearing it a bit too low- maybe both? It looks like the cups are squishing the middle of your breasts, and the lower edge of the ruched portion should be even with the bottom of your boobs so the boobs fill the cups. Perhaps you would get more response if you posted this in its own thread?
Quote from: Virginia on October 11, 2018, 07:27:38 AM
...Perhaps you would get more response if you posted this in its own thread?
I guess I'm not the only one who thought "Gee, that's rather inappropriate for this thread" :laugh:
Oh OK all new to this
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Quote from: gemma1977 on October 11, 2018, 08:12:10 AM
Oh OK all new to this
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It's OK, we can't learn unless someone points out we are making a mistake! I will repost my feedback in your new thread.
Oh I've just come off here now thanks anyway
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Quote from: gemma1977 on October 11, 2018, 08:23:27 AM
Oh I've just come off here now thanks anyway
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@gemma1977 Dear Gemma1977:
I see that you have been a member of Susan's Place for over 1 1/2 years and it appears that you have never been officially welcomed.... so here it comes now!!!
This is the right place for you to be to find out what others have done that may have been in your circumstances and with your questions about insurance coverage.
There are a lot of members here that can identify with your situation as you continue to feel free to share it.
Please allow me to warmly WELCOME you to Susan's Place.
You will find this a safe and friendly place to share with others and to read about others similar trials, tribulations, and successes.
As you are certainly aware you can share with others and involve yourself with some give and take with other like-minded members. When frustrated or if you have successes you can share it here if you wish and receive support from others and offer support to others. ....
***It's a very good chance that you might find that you will make some new friends here.
Please come in and continue to be involved at your own pace.
I have included information about the site that will help you navigate around and best utilize the features here.
Please look closely at the LINKS in RED, answers are there to many questions that new members ask.
Again, Welcome to Susan's Place.
Danielle
Here are some links to the site rules and stuff that all new members should be familiar with:
Things that you should read
Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html) | Standard Terms & Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html) | Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.) | Cautionary Note (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,82221.0.html) |
Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html) | News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html) | Photo, avatars, & signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866) | Membership Agreement (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,216851.0.html) |
Quote from: gemma1977 on October 11, 2018, 08:12:10 AM
Oh OK all new to this
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@gemma1977 Oh, and another thing Gemma:
Please find your way to the Introductions Forum (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,8.0.html) and write a brief introduction post about yourself so that more members here on the Susan's Place forums will be aware of your arrival.
Enjoy your time here on the Forums, I trust that you will find this an enjoyable and informative experience.
Best wishes to you.... and again, Welcome to Susan's Place
Danielle
Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on October 10, 2018, 10:49:57 PM
Quote from: DawnOday on October 10, 2018, 08:38:51 PM
When you no longer care what people say or think about you and you accept who you are. How do you expect others to accept you, if you don't accept yourself. When I look in the mirror I see a beautiful person that has been hiding out most of their life. If I could start over again, fear would never be a factor. When you have confidence in yourself than you will pass.
@DawnOday
Dear Dawn: Your reply comment is very well said and your wise advice is something that all transitioners should do but fear and lack of confidence in the early stages of transition before coming out can be a most difficult thing to overcome.
When looking back at those early times and now knowing how it all worked out, it is easier to say that we would have not of let fear and lack of confidence affect us back then, but the mind can be a storehouse of doubt and fear.
The key point that you made is right on:
"When you no longer care what people say or think about you and you accept who you are. How do you expect others to accept you, if you don't accept yourself."
Thanks for sharing your wisdom...
Hugs,
Danielle
It only took 67 years to come to that conclusion. I'm a slow learner. Without the cloud of depression, it really is easier to see. It's the marvel of what I have done thus far. Getting my brain back in synch. Seeing the positives instead of living the negatives. Thanks for the kudo's my dear friend.
Lol reading the new posts here and then realizing it's the thread I started made my day so far...
Quote from: Virginia on October 11, 2018, 07:27:38 AM
The top is perfect for a night out! I am thinking either you need a larger size or you are wearing it a bit too low- maybe both? It looks like the cups are squishing the middle of your breasts, and the lower edge of the ruched portion should be even with the bottom of your boobs so the boobs fill the cups. Perhaps you would get more response if you posted this in its own thread?
Virginia... I need to start going through for outfit approvals [emoji4] your honesty is a breath of fresh air... I really respect that!!
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Quote from: DawnOday on October 11, 2018, 11:41:27 AM
@DawnOday
Dear Dawn: Your reply comment is very well said and your wise advice is something that all transitioners should do but fear and lack of confidence in the early stages of transition before coming out can be a most difficult thing to overcome.
When looking back at those early times and now knowing how it all worked out, it is easier to say that we would have not of let fear and lack of confidence affect us back then, but the mind can be a storehouse of doubt and fear.
The key point that you made is right on:
"When you no longer care what people say or think about you and you accept who you are. How do you expect others to accept you, if you don't accept yourself."
Thanks for sharing your wisdom...
Hugs,
Danielle
It only took 67 years to come to that conclusion. I'm a slow learner. Without the cloud of depression, it really is easier to see. It's the marvel of what I have done thus far. Getting my brain back in synch. Seeing the positives instead of living the negatives. Thanks for the kudo's my dear friend.
27 for me. It's easy to view positives maybe after transitioning for a while. At least that's a positive to look forward to lol otherwise, no I don't see a positive in enduring what I call agony silently... I feel like it just about crushed me. But before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm making the most out of what I can. It's just not realistic to be "on" 100% of the time.
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I cannot agree with the answer to the OP's question of "How do you know when "passing" happens?" or "...at what point do you realize you're "passing"?" as being when you disregard what people think or say about you and just accept yourself. I get the sentiment from having that attitude, and it goes a long way to help one deal with one's self during transition, but it does not align with the idea of passing, which is inherently something that means you pass as the gender you identify within the eyes and reactions of the people around you. Unless you live in total solitude, passing comes from the people around you and in your life. And, in my ever so humble opinion, since everyone has different people around them and in their lives, then passing will be different for everyone, but generally it will be when you pass as the gender you identify within the eyes and reactions of the people around you.
Quote from: ainsley on October 11, 2018, 01:54:52 PM
I cannot agree with the answer to the OP's question of "How do you know when "passing" happens?" or "...at what point do you realize you're "passing"?" as being when you disregard what people think or say about you and just accept yourself.
+1
Quote from: ainsley on October 11, 2018, 01:54:52 PM
I cannot agree with the answer to the OP's question of "How do you know when "passing" happens?" or "...at what point do you realize you're "passing"?" as being when you disregard what people think or say about you and just accept yourself. I get the sentiment from having that attitude, and it goes a long way to help one deal with one's self during transition, but it does not align with the idea of passing, which is inherently something that means you pass as the gender you identify within the eyes and reactions of the people around you. Unless you live in total solitude, passing comes from the people around you and in your life. And, in my ever so humble opinion, since everyone has different people around them and in their lives, then passing will be different for everyone, but generally it will be when you pass as the gender you identify within the eyes and reactions of the people around you.
@ainsley cc:
@Virginia @DawnOday Dear Ainsley:
I agree with a lot of what you stated, yes, indeed passing does absolutely include being seen as and interfacing with other women and men that view you and interface with you as the woman or man that you are becoming and presenting.
Regarding the thought and your disagreement with other answer,
"that we should disregard what people think or say about you and just accept ourselves"... I think that was meant by that statement by
@DawnOday ... is that for many transitioners and especially the newer transitioner that is first going out and is getting mis-gendered and experiencing times of not passing ... that it is indeed a
necessity and very important to accept yourself.... and be convinced in your own personal transition journey. In the early phases you may pass well and garner good and positive reactions and comments from others and then sometimes perhaps not pass well and get negative reactions, comments and un-accepting looks from others...
so that is why we need to accept ourselves and not worry about those that think and say negative things about us. NOTE: We can utilize those not-so-successful times as learning experiences that will help us next time.
Well, that is how I see it... I hope that perhaps my explanation and reply was helpful in some way to those that are following this thread and all the posted comments.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts,
Best wishes to you.
Danielle
"Passing" and "being correctly gendered" are two quite different things... The first implies the second, though the second does not imply the first.
Passing means that perfect strangers who do not know about your past won't even question themselves when gendering you - all the necessary mix of clues that you'll display (facial structure, body shape, voice, demeanour, vocabulary, posture, interests, etc.) will be sufficient to let them gender you correctly without second thoughts.
Being correctly gendered, on the other hand, can happen even if one is not passable at all. It will usually happen if one displays enough clues to make it clear how one wishes to be gendered (clothes, makeup...). It is something that will happen almost only in open and tolerant societies.
The difference between the two concepts may seem superficial, but for example in Brazil or Saudi Arabia, effectively passing is vital. In these countries, if one expresses her/his gender without being fully and consistently convincing, one risks very harsh consequences and even death.
So the "choice" between passing versus "just" being correctly gendered is very much a matter of personal situation. Sometimes, passing is not even a realistic option, especially with those of us who had to transition later in life. I know at least a very high achiever trans woman who transitioned at around 55 years old and took the decision not to do any FFS, so she is not passable but everyone genders her correctly. But again, both of us live in very open and tolerant Belgium (at least LGTBQ+-wise)... Her life would be impossible in, say, Russia.
So all of this also means that the more accepting and open minded the country or region you thrive in, the more difficult it will be to be sure that you really "pass".
My clues to my passing? Kids don't look at me with an odd face anymore (they did before my FFS and their expression can be so cruelly sincere)... Someday, a little girl who went to my ED with only her dad, gave me the kind of hug that a little girl only gives to a mom... A blind patient correctly gendered me just by listening to my voice, still without knowing my name... On various occasions, Muslim women let me examine them after refusing being examined by male colleagues... Once, a female patiënt was so happy that "her doctor (me) happened to be a woman" because she was having an issue with her sex life... At those moments, I clearly felt "No, they are not just being polite. They actually SEE (and hear) a woman." And if passing is important for you (and as I said, for some trans women it's not that important and that's perfectly okay), these moments feel like your floating in heaven... [emoji2956]
My two cents...
Hugs, Sarah [emoji173]
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Sounds like you pass very well Sarah.
I honestly can't read women at all. Men are very polite to me. They call me ma'am usually, but I've gotten sweetie and a few have even gone out of their way to engage in talking with me... Still, I think that's different than "passing" for me because even before presenting female, I had men accost me for sexual favors.
As you can see... My points of reference is very skewed. I guess I need a formal confirmation or disconfirmation. I don't know, but I guess I just have to accept it's out of my control...for now
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Sorry Ainsley but I disagree that it's others responsibility to address you correctly. At 6'5" and size 14 feet. I will never be mistaken for a woman. Without GRS and FFS I will never feel like a woman. The best I can do is portray the most confident woman I can be. When I do, I get remarks like "stunning" "gorgeous" from CIS women and somehow my size does not matter. When I slip into my grungy former self they don't see a confident person. They see someone they can take advantage of. Someone they can call names, make snide remarks by calling me Frankenstein or Lurch. The only thing I worry about when going out as a woman is whether or not I am going to turn my dang ankle. I honestly don't care if I pass. I do care if I am accepted for expressing myself, which is quite different.. I spent my whole life hiding. Worried someone would learn my secret. Since I've stopped with the depression meds and embraced hormones I have a whole other view of myself, as a strong confident person. Self esteem is the direction I have embarked on. People always told me I was my own worst critic. That's no way to live. Emily my voice coach gets peeved when I start yammering about my past. She notices a profound difference between when I present male and when I present female. The female me is so much more alert, ambitious, thoughtful, loving, and confident. When I present male that all goes to hell in a handbasket. If I were 20 years old, maybe passing would be more on my mind. But, it took me a long time to get where I am today. As long as I progress then I'm a happy camper.
Let's look at it from another perspective. Suppose you were born missing one arm. Do you pass as a two armed person? No and you would not want to be compared, you want to judged on your own merits. In Michigan sport lore, Jim Abbot was one of the best pitchers produced by the state. At Michigan he won 26 games and lost 8. Jim pitched in the Gold medal game at the olympics. Named Big Ten athlete of the year. Drafted out of collage in the first round by the Angels and never played a game in the minors. He pitched the first no hitter for the Yankees in a decade. He ended up pitching for 10 years. The point being Jim always thought of himself as a pitcher. He didn't see his disability as a hurdle. He could transfer his glove from his stump to his hand in milliseconds and he defended his position pretty well. The point I am trying to make here is despite Jim's success as a college and Major League pitcher. When you read his biography it states in the first sentence. Jim Abbott was born September 19, 1967, in Flint, Michigan without a right hand. The lesson is, When you have confidence in what you do you can pull off anything. The public despite his success, is going to think what they think.
@DawnOday
Help me understand how you see Ainsley suggesting it was anyone's responsibility to address a person correctly or how a person's portraying the most confident woman/man they can be are ways of their knowing when "passing" happens? Also, it is not clear how a one armed person's abilities, how they see themself or how they would would want to be judged, come into play with their being able to pass as a two armed person.
Attention Moderators:
Please watch this thread carefully.
Quote from: Virginia on October 11, 2018, 05:22:14 PM
Attention Moderators:
Please watch this thread carefully.
To
@Virginia and all thread readers...
If you have issues with any thread or comments on it, please "click" the "Report to Moderator" button at the bottom right of the offending comment reply area and then state your concerns in your report.
Openly posting about your concerns on the thread is usually not the best course of action and can create negative reactions and bad feelings from other thread readers and followers.
It is the Susan's Place goal to have the forums be a happy and safe place for all members.
Best wishes to you.
Danielle
Thank you for making me aware of this, Alaskan Danielle.
Read the rest of the post. In My opinion, I think I have explained it pretty well. But you may have other ideas. That's what defines a conversation. You give your opinions and I reply with mine. Either we agree to disagree or we work towards a common understanding.
Dawn, I definitely can see where people would disagree with your post. Confidence and self-acceptance isn't absolutely everything when it comes to passing in my opinion. On its own at least.
However, it's one hell of a step in the right direction and most certainly helps everything else fall into place. Stepping into a room mentally saying "behold I am woman/man/Devlyn/enby/whatever!" without saying a word is a huge help to passing. Being timid or looking like you're hiding something merely arouses suspicion. Being confident helps others accept you at face value so to speak.
Quote from: Allison S on October 11, 2018, 03:32:43 PM
Sounds like you pass very well Sarah.
I honestly can't read women at all. Men are very polite to me. They call me ma'am usually, but I've gotten sweetie and a few have even gone out of their way to engage in talking with me... Still, I think that's different than "passing" for me because even before presenting female, I had men accost me for sexual favors.
As you can see... My points of reference is very skewed. I guess I need a formal confirmation or disconfirmation. I don't know, but I guess I just have to accept it's out of my control...for now
🙂 It's the opposite for me, I understand women for the most part and men are like an alien species. Strange thing, many lesbian couples there is one I can read and the other just confuses me. Haha, then again there are some where both are transparent to me and others where both are a mystery. Okay, never mind me I guess that I don't know as much as I thought. 😆
Yeah, I used to like attention from men still do really, but there are too many conflicting feelings involved to make it that general. It gets to be too much and I am not talking about the the average guy that tries to not be obvious, who is like that dangerous animal that everyone says is more afraid of you than you are of it, they are and it is adorable. No, I am talking about the creepsters that just watch you like a hawk, it makes my skin crawl, and they are not the worst. It gets even more confusing. What about the guys you know that are the nice guys out there that once they get to know you say the most inappropriate things. It has hurt more than one relationship of mine with a friend who's husband or boyfriend gets that way. There are guys that are just being guys, you know nervously trying to impress but comes off as a spaz, and that would be fine if they were not your doctor or lawyer. For me even when it's appropriate and I am interested, I am scared. I don't want to be, maybe I just need more experience. Uncomfortable, confusing, exciting, I don't know what men are but I am sure that I don't understand them at all.
Most of us would like it in writing, preferably witnessed by a notary, signed and stamped but I think that passing is something we don't see until it has passed us by. Not many give feedback when asked much less unsolicited feedback, the people who are closest to us are so tired of how all consuming transition is for us but even if inclined to give their opinion they have a hard time seeing the gradual new us. We have to go by how strangers react but they are strangers and it is not always the easiest to read their reaction.
I wish I could give you a satisfying answer, even though you know that a satisfying answer is likely not possible, I would like to give you some comfort.
Quote from: Colleen_definitely on October 11, 2018, 07:49:02 PM
Stepping into a room mentally saying "behold I am woman/man/Devlyn/enby/whatever!"
Lol
Yet I'm naturally timid and shy... It does make things a bit more complicated when around new people. I love the idea of "stealth" because it's like regaining power in a way. I'd probably have to come out to anyone I get very close to, but otherwise going about life and being gendered female is so much better for me.
Quote from: IAmM on October 11, 2018, 08:29:14 PM
[emoji846] It's the opposite for me, I understand women for the most part and men are like an alien species. Strange thing, many lesbian couples there is one I can read and the other just confuses me. Haha, then again there are some where both are transparent to me and others where both are a mystery. Okay, never mind me I guess that I don't know as much as I thought. [emoji38]
Yeah, I used to like attention from men still do really, but there are too many conflicting feelings involved to make it that general. It gets to be too much and I am not talking about the the average guy that tries to not be obvious, who is like that dangerous animal that everyone says is more afraid of you than you are of it, they are and it is adorable. No, I am talking about the creepsters that just watch you like a hawk, it makes my skin crawl, and they are not the worst. It gets even more confusing. What about the guys you know that are the nice guys out there that once they get to know you say the most inappropriate things. It has hurt more than one relationship of mine with a friend who's husband or boyfriend gets that way. There are guys that are just being guys, you know nervously trying to impress but comes off as a spaz, and that would be fine if they were not your doctor or lawyer. For me even when it's appropriate and I am interested, I am scared. I don't want to be, maybe I just need more experience. Uncomfortable, confusing, exciting, I don't know what men are but I am sure that I don't understand them at all.
Most of us would like it in writing, preferably witnessed by a notary, signed and stamped but I think that passing is something we don't see until it has passed us by. Not many give feedback when asked much less unsolicited feedback, the people who are closest to us are so tired of how all consuming transition is for us but even if inclined to give their opinion they have a hard time seeing the gradual new us. We have to go by how strangers react but they are strangers and it is not always the easiest to read their reaction.
I wish I could give you a satisfying answer, even though you know that a satisfying answer is likely not possible, I would like to give you some comfort.
Wow, your response came at a perfect time... Did you read my mind?! Reading guys' body language is HARD. I don't know why I care so much now anyway, it must be estrogen...? It's like I'm hardwired to be alert to men around me and I notice things... I'll just keep it at that. I honestly do feel like I'm being groomed in a way at times... Am I nuts? Lol
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Quote from: Allison S on October 11, 2018, 09:01:47 PM
Lol
Yet I'm naturally timid and shy... It does make things a bit more complicated when around new people. I love the idea of "stealth" because it's like regaining power in a way. I'd probably have to come out to anyone I get very close to, but otherwise going about life and being gendered female is so much better for me.
Being confident isn't necessarily the same as being an extrovert. I'm fairly reserved and quiet myself but the visceral knowledge that I am a woman seems to shine through when I have social interactions. It's hard to shake those years of programming to the contrary though.
You think you are timid and shy. I'm pretty sure I invented timid and shy. Back when I invented dirt, I would do my best to stay off the radar. Having the confidence to pull off being a woman full time is still a work in process and one of the reasons after 27 months on hormones I still visit the therapist twice a month. To unwind a lifetime of self loathing and feeling I was not worthy to be alive let alone live as the person I felt I was. If I had to worry about passing I would not get out of bed in the morning. It's not in the cards. I wish I could be a femme fatale and just be like Gigi. Heck I wish I could be twenty years old again and growing up under the same circumstances as twenty year olds today. It would have been a no brainer for me to transition and at that age I may have come out pretty good. I don't know if I would have had the support of my family to do so.
In my time there were a few successful transitioners but far between. There were ->-bleeped-<-s who occasionally got a ride with Eddie Murphy or Hugh Grant on Santa Monica Blvd. Uncle Milty, Flip Wilson, Jack Lemmon and even a young Tom Hanks would dress in drag for laughs. Even today in crime dramas we get transgender people looked upon as a joke, a criminal, an amusement or a victim. How do we expect to pass when a fair depiction cannot be found? Name me one transgender depiction of someone going about their daily lives. I can't think of one besides John Lithgow in the World According to Garp." I know there are transgender film festival depictions of such. But, few see the light of day of mass distribution.
I don't want to be a joke. and I can't do that simply dressing up and passing... I have to open up my mouth and explain things, to inform people that while we are different we are the same. Sure I may be able to make a small circle of friends and we can enjoy nightlife all dressed up. But what about when we live day to day lives? Go to the store with hair in a pony tail and no make up like most women. Hold a conversation without allowing our voices to get too low lest they find out our little secret. Someone wanted me to explain my Jim Abbot analogy and I guess this is what I mean. You may find time when you pass, Jim Abbot did it at the highest levels for ten years. But he has always only had one hand. In his biography that is the point they make. A one handed pitcher. So all the passing in the world and you will be known for only one thing. Not passing at one time in your life.
A lot of us are passable as long as it's from a long distance. As we get closer we can see the hooded eyes, or the receding hairline, maybe it's beard shadow. Maybe a little paunch or maybe like me you might notice that the waistline does not match the dress because it's two inches to short.
I saw a picture the other day on another site. This 27 year old transwomen was absolutely beautiful. I'd show her picture if I had permission. She is every transwomans dream. Beautiful flawless skin, no wrinkles and her clothes are so stylish, make-up perfect. I looked at her transition pictures and it reminded me of Archlord who did such a marvelous job of recording her transition. Well back to the story. Everyone was telling her how fantastic she looked. She wrote back that she was wearing a wig and she always had a large forehead. Even this beauty who has everything going for her does not have enough confidence to pass. To herself. That is the point I am trying to make. I want to make sure you understand this in my opinion and in no way does it represent anyone else's view but mine unless you want to. If so send me $90 for your therapy session.
Quote from: Colleen_definitely on October 11, 2018, 07:49:02 PM
Dawn, I definitely can see where people would disagree with your post. Confidence and self-acceptance isn't absolutely everything when it comes to passing in my opinion. On its own at least.
However, it's one hell of a step in the right direction and most certainly helps everything else fall into place. Stepping into a room mentally saying "behold I am woman/man/Devlyn/enby/whatever!" without saying a word is a huge help to passing. Being timid or looking like you're hiding something merely arouses suspicion. Being confident helps others accept you at face value so to speak.
Beautiful! ;D
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: DawnOday on October 11, 2018, 05:05:28 PM
Sorry Ainsley but I disagree that it's others responsibility to address you correctly.
Well, that is not what I said. :) I am not interested is dissecting things we've said here. I gave my opinion; love it or hate it, it's there for the taking or the skipping.
Quote from: DawnOday on October 11, 2018, 05:05:28 PM
...Jim Abbott was born September 19, 1967, in Flint, Michigan without a right hand. ...
Yes, I sat next to him in biology class. :) No need to explain his overcoming what life dealt him. I saw him do it everyday. He was just another kid in Mr. McDaniel's class as far as I was concerned.
I think this topic kind of veered off from my original question... or I didn't really explain it well enough. I only meant if we pass in public, how do we know it's really "passing" or others being nice?
I think Denise made a topic similar to this where she asked people at her gym... I'm starting to think that's really the only way to know for sure- to ask.
But I'm really hesitant to do that. I honestly don't think I "pass" because I'm very good at eye contact, facial expressions and body language. As I said, women are harder to read than men. Even then, are men nice because they're attracted to what they see?
As most say, people usually don't take a second glance. If they do and they think they clock us, than they need proof. I think usually proof they need is our voice, but I'm not sure on this. If I'm going by phsyical attributes like my overall body size, shoulders, hands, feet, larger sized head, then I think everyone I come across knows I'm trans.
I was with my sister and her friend, and my sister noticed that the guy at the concession stand "ma'amed" me and she thinks he was "being nice". Her words. I'm starting to think seperating from others is best, because her comment makes me question everything all over again. Am I conceited to be offended that my sister who has known me as a male all our lives is in denial or is my sister misjudging my "passing" potential?
I may never know...probably a little bit of both though
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Something that might help you answer your question:
Have one of your friends take a candid video of you while you out and about. Wait a few weeks before watching it to put some distance between you and the person in the video. It will give you one opinion you can trust.
Quote from: Allison S on October 15, 2018, 11:19:33 AM
I think this topic kind of veered off from my original question... or I didn't really explain it well enough. I only meant if we pass in public, how do we know it's really "passing" or others being nice?
...
Well, I can tell you what I observed.
When I definitely didn't pass, both men and women would be looking at my face as I passed by on the street. Older women would often scowl, and younger women would sort of smile but break eye contact quickly.
After about 18 months of HRT and a year of real life experience (full time), I had my makeup and body movement largely down. Walking down the street with a smile (which happens to shorten the upper lip...) other women tended to see me, and do that 'visual check' women often do for each other, looking up and down one's figure for wardrobe choices and to spot (and fix!) problems. I've hada flipped up collar and a tag fixed in passing by strangers. Men were not looking at my face so often. Fairly often I got a return smile from other women my age or a little younger.
After two years now of real life experience (full time), plus facial feminization surgery (FFS), I still have men looking at me. Well, at my lower torso and hips, which seem to have a mind of their own!. ("My eyes are up here!" :D )Women still do the visual check, and often comment on wardrobe choices when we are standing at a light waiting to cross. I've had several fun conversations that way.
I also interact fairly often with women walking dogs during the day in the dog park by my condo. I have never been misgendered there.
I think passing happens when we are just treated as another woman out in the world, by random folks. I was getting "Ma'am" way before that by people who expected to get payment or tips from me, but now it seems to be universal.
I tried to be super critical yesterday at the supermarket. Minimal makeup, after work so a bit tired dressed fem (skirt and top) as I always do. I looked and I looked, I tried to find find odd looks etc... there are none. I have to the conclusion I just look like a tall woman. The overwhelming body of evidence points to this.
Some might say I have been lucky and don't have too many masculine traits to give me away. I could list a few if I wanted to... but I can't change them so why bother? Why worry about stuff that will never change?
I think the secret to 'passing' if there is any to stop TRYING to pass and just be you. Wear your skirt or dress, don't put on makeup with your hair in a ponytail and just be you. Don't look for people to out you and if there are some (sure to be somewhere) who cares?
I accept me. I'm as much a women as any other and from extensive obseveration look more womanly than many cis women. There is no 'ideal' women and beauty and confidence comes from within. Let it out, let YOUR light shine and its just not an issue. The greatest barrier to all of us is ... us!
Kill the doubts, squash the what ifs and just get on with living. Then passing is not even an issue because you will.
Eh I'd have to disagree with the girls on here to say you can't really tell if your passing or people are just treating you with respect since they can tell your trying to present one way. Maybe you can't really tell when your in that phase because you have nothing else to compare it to.
For me looking back on when I first started presenting I kinda felt that way too but now that I'm actually passing the difference are really stark.
One of the thing I noticed was before I was passing well I got about an even number of prolonged looks at my face from men and women. Now women never look at my face more than normal but men do probably even more than when I wasn't passing especially old men which is real creepy sometimes getting checked out. Now I get the phrase feeling like a piece of meat haha
Another one looking back is the way women treat me in bathrooms. I never got any ->-bleeped-<- from anyone when I first started presenting, but I guess women would just like keep their distance more. Like
not go to the sink next to me, wait for me to be done to use the paper towels instead of using the one right next to me. And they never talked to me unless it was the rare weirdly almost like they were encouraging me compliment that felt very "hon" esk. Now women in the bathroom stand next to and I don't feel like I'm repelling them in the bathroom and random women I've never met just chit chat sometimes about random things.
Another place I noticed the biggest difference is in bars. When I was first presenting I would have the hardest time in a super crowded bar to get a male bartenders attention while jocking for space holding my credit card out. And no random guys would come up to talk to me. Now male bar tenders seem to wanna take my money much quicker even when it's just as packed. Guys come up to try and start conversations with me ( I remember having to do that with women before transition I was such a wimp and usually got scared haha). At dance clubs random dudes sometimes try to grind up on me when I'm dancing with the girls now where when I first started presenting that didn't happen ever.
Last big one I've noticed is small children and waiters. Small children( like ages 5 ish to maybe 9 ish before they learn how to be polite) would sometimes stare at me like I had something written on my face when I first started. You could tell they were trying to figure me out, almost like how they stare at someone with a disability. Not in a mean way but more a curious one. Now they pay me no mind again like it was when I was living as a dude.
For the waiters one at least here in America I think most waiters are trained to address the women first when taking orders. Usually when I would go out with my sister or a cis friend for lunch / dinner just the two of us when the waiter would take our orders they would more often than not address my sister or cis friend first. Now it's just random like 50 50 who they address first.
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I noticed now when at the mall, I don't get the stares that I used to get. So if it is a open public place I'm not getting read. If I'm in a restaurant or one on one with someone, I know they have read me and just treat me nice. In the bathroom it has been getting better with how women interact with me. I may still scare some of them.
Julie
The first thing telling that I pass is the shortened physical distances with other women, especially young ladies. In the chairs of public buses or trains and airport lounges, young ladies sit next to me without hesitation. Usually those young ladies avoid sitting next to men. Also in book stores or shopping malls, women approach me very closely. Usually women keep a distance with men in those places.
The second thing is eye contacts. Women do not avoid my eyes, staring at me for a long time, sometimes longer than 10 seconds. Men also stare at me with a kind of predator eyes. Fortunately nowadays young men do not stare so much at strange people, at least here in S. Korea, partly due to the boom of smartphone. They are busy watching their own smartphone everywhere. I feel I am relieved from those stares. Thank you, Steve Jobs.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7827/46069689294_941686e3eb_c.jpg) (https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7869/46794592961_38ee256229_c.jpg)
barbie~~
I was reading the newer replies and I didn't even realize I started this thread [emoji23] lol
I can definitely relate with everyone saying. Women don't look at me I've noticed, but I catch men staring... Men greet me when I'm out and about too. I get free drinks at bars and even at a restaurant once with a friend... People have told me that my voice clocks me, so that's a big downside...
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Thankfully my voice is passable and although still over weight I am visually passable as well. I know this because I get talked over, mansplanned to, and disregarded when it comes to a decision all the time.
One example from today, I'm at a Firestone today to get my car serviced and got mansplaned about the service I should have done. Don't get me wrong I don't mind in this area because it reminds me if I have forgotten to ask for something but It is entertaining when I rattled off the service already completed that isn't needed and he was like how do you know about that? Of course the answer, being truthful, was my boyfriend had me get it done in the summer.
When you go to a trans support group meeting and people don't understand why you are there because they think you are cis.
Quote from: Lynne on January 19, 2019, 04:12:10 PM
When you go to a trans support group meeting and people don't understand why you are there because they think you are cis.
Ha ha, Yes. It's possible.
In my case, my biggest hurdle is my low and manly voice. But sometimes some people, especially foreigners, still regarded me as a cis-woman even after hearing my voice. I am not quite sure whether they clocked me but intentionally called as such, but anyway I was especially thankful that they still called me as a lady after long conversation or lecture presentation.
barbie~~
The two biggest things I notice is that when I pass women on a sidewalk or in a hall, they smile at me now. Also random people try to strike up conversations with me now. Just these past couple of days when I happened to be exiting a building at work at the same time as another woman, and we were going the same direction, we got into a conversation about how the weather was affecting the testing schedule at her kids' school. Then when I got to my building and there was some guy I'd never met in the elevator, and we started talking about how Monday was in fact a holiday.
One of the more common signs is when I'd go to change my name on something, and they'd ask if I'd just gotten married.
That reminds me of one time, when I was changing the name on my bank account, one person was reading me as male, and another in the same room was reading me as female. That got very confusing.
Passing seems to be an amalgamation of the various cues you give off, and not every person focuses on the same ones. I've been using women's restrooms and locker rooms for months and no one has ever given me a second glance let alone confronted me, and I'm 6'4."
Quote from: Lynne on January 19, 2019, 04:12:10 PM
When you go to a trans support group meeting and people don't understand why you are there because they think you are cis.
that would be nice. :laugh:
Sometimes you know when people tell you. I had someone tell me that they didn't know until a mutual friend told them. That friend had my permission to tell the person, and there was a good reason why they should, but I had assumed it wouldn't be news to them. It was.
I know that I do not "pass" in public - low voice, broad shoulders, etc. But it doesn't bother me too much anymore. In the service world, my money is as good as anyone else's, and in crowds most people are just too busy getting on with their day. When I'm out with my wife, she gets all the attention!! She has commented frequently that once you pass 60 as a female you essentially become "Invisible" in public. I do catch both men and women eyeballing me from time to time, trying to figure out what they are seeing!! :D :D
Deb
I think time expressing helps. At some point it becomes who you are and not who you think you should be. I never think about clothing the way I did when I first started to express. I enjoy certain styles and like to wear them. My boss actually commented to me and said who picks out your cloths for you. I know you could not match colors. This was a while ago.
The gym, I wear female gym clothes and love how they fit and feel. I was sooooo self conscious when I started expressing. Gym clothing is so revealing and I was very self conscious.
I am never misgendered. It took time, hormones and a lot of procedures. Most importantly it is confidence or maybe the expectation of a certain behaviour and receiving that outcome.
On the phone I am gendered properly. That was the most difficult of all and it took a lot to get there. I think I do not pass on the phone but when I asked some people at work they said I did. They said I do not sound male in any way. My voice still is healing and has a way to go. I can still hear my old voice in recordings. Higher pitch and younger voice but I still have the sound of my old voice.
I was in the main gym room today doing some arm and chest work and a few guys checked me out, I think.
When I pass a woman at work we smile. I never look at guys unless I know them and then it is to say hi.
I really think I have changed in how I am perceived and how I perceive others. For example, after spin class today there were 4 or 5 woman in a circle and I joined in. I did not feel odd or that I do not belong. Perhaps passing has many levels some of which are how others see and treat us and others are how we see others and treat them.
Quote from: KathyLauren on January 20, 2019, 04:06:21 PM
Sometimes you know when people tell you. I had someone tell me that they didn't know until a mutual friend told them. That friend had my permission to tell the person, and there was a good reason why they should, but I had assumed it wouldn't be news to them. It was.
That probably made your day. :)
Quote from: Lynne on January 19, 2019, 04:12:10 PM
When you go to a trans support group meeting and people don't understand why you are there because they think you are cis.
Hah! Yes. I had GCS late 2018. I was in the recovery center and there was a rumour that a cis woman was there. They asked each other in a panic gossip why the center was accepting cisgender women. The rumours were going on for days. One day on the fifth day I was there and finally two gals were sitting at the dining table one night and asked me why I was there. It turn out the person they were all gossiping and avoiding for almost the whole week was me. When I explained that I had my surgery and am recovering, they came clean and told me that they all thought I was that cisgender woman. They asked how my voice was so perfect. I explained that I had VFS five weeks prior. They asked me about my other surgeries I said that I had no other surgeries. They said Wow! So for the last day, they all started talking to me. It was a very lonely time in recovery, but at least I know why now. When I saw your comment I was like "YES! this is so true". The ultimate test, because we all know how to clock one another.
The wohle passing thing is a little different when you are an older woman. I don't go to bars and clubs anymore, no man would buy a drink for an old woman anyway! My passing is when a store check out person ma'ms me, or when the attendant in changing rooms does not look funny when I go into the female side, or that women in bathrooms continue their activities in a normal way, or start small talk with me. or when a waiter in a restaurant asks,and what would you like ma'm. The biggest thing is when men hold the door open and say "after you ma'm".
My voice is naturally pretty high pitched, and is in the lower female voice range. I am slowly loosing the male speech pattern, because I deal with women only, and I now can pass with my speech without any problem, because most older women have somewhat lower voices anyway.
That's about it how an older trans woman knows she is passing!
I think passing has a spectrum and it's all in the eye of the beholder.
Do you still get "sir"? How about "ma'am"? Or do you get gender neutral or not gendered at all?
On the now rare occasion I get misgendered, I get very introspective. Am I where I thought I was on the continuum? When my friends respond that the person was rude or ignorant, I take it as a cue I'm not where I want to be. My goal is to pass as cis, not to be a passable trans woman. Meaning, I don't want people to think about how to gender me.
I'm not there but moving the needle quickly.
What is your goal on that continuum?
How do you know you are passing? Depends on what that means to you.
I converse with women innately, get the boob stare from guys, doors and elevators held, and mansplained. I have the speech patterns, intonation, pitch and pass easily on the phone, but on occasion still get the random sir or weird glance (always from a woman) once or twice a month. But I'm not where I want to be yet.
Others might be thrilled with what I described and say they pass. It comes back to what does "to pass" mean to you.