How do you know when "passing" happens?

[Virginia]

Oh OK all new to this

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It's OK, we can't learn unless someone points out we are making a mistake! I will repost my feedback in your new thread.

[gemma1977]

Oh I've just come off here now thanks anyway

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[Northern Star Girl]

Oh I've just come off here now thanks anyway

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@gemma1977
Dear Gemma1977:
I see that you have been a member of Susan's Place for over 1 1/2 years and it appears that you have never been officially welcomed....  so here it comes now!!!

This is the right place for you to be to find out what others have done that may have been in your circumstances and with your questions about insurance coverage.
    There are a lot of members here that can identify with your situation as you continue to feel free to share it.

    Please allow me to warmly WELCOME you to Susan's Place. 
You will find this a safe and friendly place to share with others and to read about others similar trials, tribulations, and successes.

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    Please come in and continue to be involved at your own pace.
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[Northern Star Girl]

Oh OK all new to this

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@gemma1977
Oh, and another thing Gemma:
Please find your way to the  Introductions Forum and write a brief introduction post about yourself so that more members here on the Susan's Place forums will be aware of your arrival.

Enjoy your time here on the Forums, I trust that you will find this an enjoyable and informative experience.
Best wishes to you.... and again, Welcome to Susan's Place
Danielle

[DawnOday]

When you no longer care what people say or think about you and you accept who you are. How do you expect others to accept you, if you don't accept yourself. When I look in the mirror I see a beautiful person that has been hiding out most of their life.  If I could start over again, fear would never be a factor. When you have confidence in yourself than you will pass.

@DawnOday
Dear Dawn:  Your reply comment is very well said and your wise advice is something that all transitioners should do but fear and lack of confidence in the early stages of transition before coming out can be a most difficult thing to overcome.
When looking back at those early times and now knowing how it all worked out, it is easier to say that we would have not of let fear and lack of confidence affect us back then, but the mind can be a storehouse of doubt and fear.

The key point that you made is right on:
"When you no longer care what people say or think about you and you accept who you are. How do you expect others to accept you, if you don't accept yourself."

Thanks for sharing your wisdom...
Hugs,
Danielle

It only took 67 years to come to that conclusion. I'm a slow learner. Without the cloud of depression, it really is easier to see. It's the marvel of what I have done thus far. Getting my brain back in synch. Seeing the positives instead of living the negatives.    Thanks for the kudo's my dear friend.

[Allison S]

Lol reading the new posts here and then realizing it's the thread I started made my day so far...

The top is perfect for a night out! I am thinking either you need a larger size or you are wearing it a bit too low- maybe both? It looks like the cups are squishing the middle of your breasts, and the lower edge of the ruched portion should be even with the bottom of your boobs so the boobs fill the cups. Perhaps you would get more response if you posted this in its own thread?

Virginia... I need to start going through for outfit approvals [emoji4] your honesty is a breath of fresh air... I really respect that!!

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[Allison S]

@DawnOday
Dear Dawn:  Your reply comment is very well said and your wise advice is something that all transitioners should do but fear and lack of confidence in the early stages of transition before coming out can be a most difficult thing to overcome.
When looking back at those early times and now knowing how it all worked out, it is easier to say that we would have not of let fear and lack of confidence affect us back then, but the mind can be a storehouse of doubt and fear.

The key point that you made is right on:
"When you no longer care what people say or think about you and you accept who you are. How do you expect others to accept you, if you don't accept yourself."

Thanks for sharing your wisdom...
Hugs,
Danielle




It only took 67 years to come to that conclusion. I'm a slow learner. Without the cloud of depression, it really is easier to see. It's the marvel of what I have done thus far. Getting my brain back in synch. Seeing the positives instead of living the negatives.    Thanks for the kudo's my dear friend.

27 for me. It's easy to view positives maybe after transitioning for a while. At least that's a positive to look forward to lol otherwise, no I don't see a positive in enduring what I call agony silently... I feel like it just about crushed me. But before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm making the most out of what I can. It's just not realistic to be "on" 100% of the time.

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[ainsley]

I cannot agree with the answer to the OP's question of "How do you know when "passing" happens?" or "...at what point do you realize you're "passing"?" as being when you disregard what people think or say about you and just accept yourself.  I get the sentiment from having that attitude, and it goes a long way to help one deal with one's self during transition, but it does not align with the idea of passing, which is inherently something that means you pass as the gender you identify within the eyes and reactions of the people around you.  Unless you live in total solitude, passing comes from the people around you and in your life.  And, in my ever so humble opinion, since everyone has different people around them and in their lives, then passing will be different for everyone, but generally it will be when you pass as the gender you identify within the eyes and reactions of the people around you.

[Virginia]

I cannot agree with the answer to the OP's question of "How do you know when "passing" happens?" or "...at what point do you realize you're "passing"?" as being when you disregard what people think or say about you and just accept yourself. 

+1

[Northern Star Girl]

I cannot agree with the answer to the OP's question of "How do you know when "passing" happens?" or "...at what point do you realize you're "passing"?" as being when you disregard what people think or say about you and just accept yourself.  I get the sentiment from having that attitude, and it goes a long way to help one deal with one's self during transition, but it does not align with the idea of passing, which is inherently something that means you pass as the gender you identify within the eyes and reactions of the people around you.  Unless you live in total solitude, passing comes from the people around you and in your life.  And, in my ever so humble opinion, since everyone has different people around them and in their lives, then passing will be different for everyone, but generally it will be when you pass as the gender you identify within the eyes and reactions of the people around you.

@ainsley    cc: @Virginia    @DawnOday
Dear Ainsley:
I agree with a lot of what you stated, yes, indeed passing does absolutely include being seen as and interfacing with other women and men that view you and interface with you as the woman or man that you are becoming and presenting.   

Regarding the thought and your disagreement with other answer, "that we should disregard what people think or say about you and just accept ourselves"...  I think that was meant by that statement by @DawnOday ... is that for many transitioners and especially the newer transitioner that is first going out and is getting mis-gendered and experiencing times of not passing ... that it is indeed a necessity and very important to accept yourself.... and be convinced in your own personal transition journey.  In the early phases you may pass well and garner good and positive reactions and comments from others and then sometimes perhaps not pass well and get negative reactions, comments and un-accepting looks from others... so that is why we need to accept ourselves and not worry about those that think and say negative things about us. 
NOTE: We can utilize those not-so-successful times as learning experiences that will help us next time.

Well, that is how I see it...  I hope that perhaps my explanation and reply was helpful in some way to those that are following this thread and all the posted comments.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts,
Best wishes to you.
Danielle

[Sarah.VanDistel]

"Passing" and "being correctly gendered" are two quite different things... The first implies the second, though the second does not imply the first.

Passing means that perfect strangers who do not know about your past won't even question themselves when gendering you - all the necessary mix of clues that you'll display (facial structure, body shape, voice, demeanour, vocabulary, posture, interests, etc.) will be sufficient to let them gender you correctly without second thoughts.

Being correctly gendered, on the other hand, can happen even if one is not passable at all. It will usually happen if one displays enough clues to make it clear how one wishes to be gendered (clothes, makeup...). It is something that will happen almost only in open and tolerant societies.

The difference between the two concepts may seem superficial, but for example in Brazil or Saudi Arabia, effectively passing is vital. In these countries, if one expresses her/his gender without being fully and consistently convincing, one risks very harsh consequences and even death.

So the "choice" between passing versus "just" being correctly gendered is very much a matter of personal situation. Sometimes, passing is not even a realistic option, especially with those of us who had to transition later in life. I know at least a very high achiever trans woman who transitioned at around 55 years old and took the decision not to do any FFS, so she is not passable but everyone genders her correctly. But again, both of us live in very open and tolerant Belgium (at least LGTBQ+-wise)... Her life would be impossible in, say, Russia.

So all of this also means that the more accepting and open minded the country or region you thrive in, the more difficult it will be to be sure that you really "pass".

My clues to my passing? Kids don't look at me with an odd face anymore (they did before my FFS and their expression can be so cruelly sincere)... Someday, a little girl who went to my ED with only her dad, gave me the kind of hug that a little girl only gives to a mom... A blind patient correctly gendered me just by listening to my voice, still without knowing my name... On various occasions, Muslim women let me examine them after refusing being examined by male colleagues... Once, a female patiënt was so happy that "her doctor (me) happened to be a woman" because she was having an issue with her sex life... At those moments, I clearly felt "No, they are not just being polite. They actually SEE (and hear) a woman." And if passing is important for you (and as I said, for some trans women it's not that important and that's perfectly okay), these moments feel like your floating in heaven... [emoji2956]

My two cents...

Hugs, Sarah [emoji173]

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[Allison S]

Sounds like you pass very well Sarah.
I honestly can't read women at all. Men are very polite to me. They call me ma'am usually, but I've gotten sweetie and a few have even gone out of their way to engage in talking with me... Still, I think that's different than "passing" for me because even before presenting female, I had men accost me for sexual favors.
As you can see... My points of reference is very skewed. I guess I need a formal confirmation or disconfirmation. I don't know, but I guess I just have to accept it's out of my control...for now

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[DawnOday]

Sorry Ainsley but I disagree that it's others responsibility to address you correctly. At 6'5" and size 14 feet. I will never be mistaken for a woman. Without GRS and FFS I will never feel like a woman. The best I can do is portray the most confident woman I can be. When I do, I get remarks like "stunning" "gorgeous" from CIS women and somehow my size does not matter. When I slip into my grungy former self they don't see a confident person. They see someone they can take advantage of. Someone they can call names, make snide remarks by calling me Frankenstein or Lurch. The only thing I worry about when going out as a woman is whether or not I am going to turn my dang ankle. I honestly don't care if I pass. I do care if I am accepted for expressing myself, which is quite different.. I spent my whole life hiding. Worried someone would learn my secret. Since I've stopped with the depression meds and embraced hormones I have a whole other view of myself, as a strong confident person. Self esteem is the direction I have embarked on. People always told me I was my own worst critic.  That's no way to live. Emily my voice coach gets peeved when I start yammering about my past. She notices a profound difference between when I present male and when I present female. The female me is so much more alert, ambitious, thoughtful, loving, and confident. When I present male that all goes to hell in a handbasket. If I were 20 years old, maybe passing would be more on my mind. But, it took me a long time to get where I am today. As long as I progress then I'm a happy camper.

Let's look at it from another perspective. Suppose you were born missing one arm. Do you pass as a two armed person? No and you would not want to be compared, you want to judged on your own merits. In Michigan sport lore, Jim Abbot was one of the best pitchers produced by the state. At Michigan he won 26 games and lost 8. Jim pitched in the Gold medal game at the olympics. Named Big Ten athlete of the year. Drafted out of collage in the first round by the Angels and never played a game in the minors. He pitched the first no hitter for the Yankees in a decade. He ended up pitching for 10 years. The point being Jim always thought of himself as a pitcher. He didn't see his disability as a hurdle. He could transfer his glove from his stump to his hand in milliseconds and he defended his position pretty well. The point I am trying to make here is despite Jim's success as a college and Major League pitcher. When you read his biography it states in the first sentence. Jim Abbott was born September 19, 1967, in Flint, Michigan without a right hand. The lesson is, When you have confidence in what you do you can pull off anything. The public despite his success, is going to think what they think.

[Virginia]

@DawnOday
Help me understand how you see Ainsley suggesting it was anyone's responsibility to address a person correctly or how a person's portraying the most confident woman/man they can be are ways of their knowing when "passing" happens? Also, it is not clear how a one armed person's abilities, how they see themself or how they would would want to be judged, come into play with their being able to pass as a two armed person.

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[Northern Star Girl]

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Best wishes to you.
Danielle

[Virginia]

Thank you for making me aware of this, Alaskan Danielle.

[DawnOday]

Read the rest of the post. In My opinion, I think I have explained it pretty well. But you may have other ideas. That's what defines a conversation. You give your opinions and I reply with mine. Either we agree to disagree or we work towards a common understanding.

[Colleen_definitely]

Dawn, I definitely can see where people would disagree with your post.  Confidence and self-acceptance isn't absolutely everything when it comes to passing in my opinion.  On its own at least.

However, it's one hell of a step in the right direction and most certainly helps everything else fall into place.  Stepping into a room mentally saying "behold I am woman/man/Devlyn/enby/whatever!" without saying a word is a huge help to passing.  Being timid or looking like you're hiding something merely arouses suspicion.  Being confident helps others accept you at face value so to speak.

[IAmM]

Sounds like you pass very well Sarah.
I honestly can't read women at all. Men are very polite to me. They call me ma'am usually, but I've gotten sweetie and a few have even gone out of their way to engage in talking with me... Still, I think that's different than "passing" for me because even before presenting female, I had men accost me for sexual favors.
As you can see... My points of reference is very skewed. I guess I need a formal confirmation or disconfirmation. I don't know, but I guess I just have to accept it's out of my control...for now

🙂 It's the opposite for me, I understand women for the most part and men are like an alien species. Strange thing, many lesbian couples there is one I can read and the other just confuses me. Haha, then again there are some where both are transparent to me and others where both are a mystery. Okay, never mind me I guess that I don't know as much as I thought. 😆

Yeah, I used to like attention from men still do really, but there are too many conflicting feelings involved to make it that general. It gets to be too much and I am not talking about the the average guy that tries to not be obvious, who is like that dangerous animal that everyone says is more afraid of you than you are of it, they are and it is adorable. No, I am talking about the creepsters that just watch you like a hawk, it makes my skin crawl, and they are not the worst. It gets even more confusing. What about the guys you know that are the nice guys out there that once they get to know you say the most inappropriate things. It has hurt more than one relationship of mine with a friend who's husband or boyfriend gets that way. There are guys that are just being guys, you know nervously trying to impress but comes off as a spaz, and that would be fine if they were not your doctor or lawyer. For me even when it's appropriate and I am interested, I am scared. I don't want to be, maybe I just need more experience. Uncomfortable, confusing, exciting, I don't know what men are but I am sure that I don't understand them at all.

Most of us would like it in writing, preferably witnessed by a notary, signed and stamped but I think that passing is something we don't see until it has passed us by. Not many give feedback when asked much less unsolicited feedback, the people who are closest to us are so tired of how all consuming transition is for us but even if inclined to give their opinion they have a hard time seeing the gradual new us. We have to go by how strangers react but they are strangers and it is not always the easiest to read their reaction.

I wish I could give you a satisfying answer, even though you know that a satisfying answer is likely not possible, I would like to give you some comfort.

[Allison S]

Stepping into a room mentally saying "behold I am woman/man/Devlyn/enby/whatever!"

Lol

Yet I'm naturally timid and shy... It does make things a bit more complicated when around new people. I love the idea of "stealth" because it's like regaining power in a way. I'd probably have to come out to anyone I get very close to, but otherwise going about life and being gendered female is so much better for me. 

[emoji846] It's the opposite for me, I understand women for the most part and men are like an alien species. Strange thing, many lesbian couples there is one I can read and the other just confuses me. Haha, then again there are some where both are transparent to me and others where both are a mystery. Okay, never mind me I guess that I don't know as much as I thought. [emoji38]

Yeah, I used to like attention from men still do really, but there are too many conflicting feelings involved to make it that general. It gets to be too much and I am not talking about the the average guy that tries to not be obvious, who is like that dangerous animal that everyone says is more afraid of you than you are of it, they are and it is adorable. No, I am talking about the creepsters that just watch you like a hawk, it makes my skin crawl, and they are not the worst. It gets even more confusing. What about the guys you know that are the nice guys out there that once they get to know you say the most inappropriate things. It has hurt more than one relationship of mine with a friend who's husband or boyfriend gets that way. There are guys that are just being guys, you know nervously trying to impress but comes off as a spaz, and that would be fine if they were not your doctor or lawyer. For me even when it's appropriate and I am interested, I am scared. I don't want to be, maybe I just need more experience. Uncomfortable, confusing, exciting, I don't know what men are but I am sure that I don't understand them at all.

Most of us would like it in writing, preferably witnessed by a notary, signed and stamped but I think that passing is something we don't see until it has passed us by. Not many give feedback when asked much less unsolicited feedback, the people who are closest to us are so tired of how all consuming transition is for us but even if inclined to give their opinion they have a hard time seeing the gradual new us. We have to go by how strangers react but they are strangers and it is not always the easiest to read their reaction.

I wish I could give you a satisfying answer, even though you know that a satisfying answer is likely not possible, I would like to give you some comfort.

Wow, your response came at a perfect time... Did you read my mind?! Reading guys' body language is HARD. I don't know why I care so much now anyway, it must be estrogen...? It's like I'm hardwired to be alert to men around me and I notice things... I'll just keep it at that. I honestly do feel like I'm being groomed in a way at times... Am I nuts? Lol




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