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How do you know when "passing" happens?

Started by Allison S, October 04, 2018, 01:27:11 PM

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Allison S

I'm wondering because I'm out in public as myself but at home and with my family, I'm very much still "in transition" to them. I mean I am still transitioning and will be for a while, but publicly, how do I know that strangers are or aren't aware?
I don't mind either way, I'm just curious at what point do you realize you're "passing"?
It just seems like such a black/white thing but I can't wrap my mind around it. Again, it could be because my family isn't fully accepting which messes with my mind... I don't think I pass, I'm just wondering.

Sorry I know this is a bit convoluted, or at least my wording is, but I have to ask.

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Northern Star Girl

Quote from: Allison S on October 04, 2018, 01:27:11 PM
I'm wondering because I'm out in public as myself but at home and with my family, I'm very much still "in transition" to them. I mean I am still transitioning and will be for a while, but publicly, how do I know that strangers are or aren't aware?
I don't mind either way, I'm just curious at what point do you realize you're "passing"?
It just seems like such a black/white thing but I can't wrap my mind around it. Again, it could be because my family isn't fully accepting which messes with my mind... I don't think I pass, I'm just wondering.

Sorry I know this is a bit convoluted, or at least my wording is, but I have to ask.

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@Allison S
Dear Allison... 
Passing successfully depends on much more than female facial and physical appearance.... as you already know it also depends on body movements and mannerisms, sitting, walking, eating, inter-reaction with others, speech patterns and voice pitch, hair styles,  cosmetic enhancements, etc.

As it relates to the Subject Title of this thread  "How do you know when "passing" happens?"  ... let me put it this way.... you will clearly know and it will be most obvious to you
when it Doesn't Happen and you don't pass.

The very important thing that I want to say to you, is to not wait until you think you will be perfect and will 100% pass.... get out and about and be ready to learn from some mistakes and failures that will help you to continue refining your appearance and all the other factors that I mentioned. 
Passing is not a black/white thing, there are stages that one goes through as more frequent successes build more confidence and self-assurance..

Wishing you well......
Hugs,
Danielle
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Devlyn

Without ESP, you can only guess if you're passing. What you can tell is if you're getting acceptance and respect.
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RabbitSpectre

Those of us in the 'passing lane' are here to help you and offer tips on anything you may have questions about. :)

And honestly, from the way you worded things, I think you're probably passing. ;) I cant be 100% certain of that assessment, of course, but as the other replies here mentioned, if you're being treated with respect, and people aren't staring at you like the door to Narnia just opened on your face, you're probably doing alright!
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Virginia

#4
Quote from: Allison S on October 04, 2018, 01:27:11 PMat what point do you realize you're "passing"?

It is extremely difficult to distinguish between a person's receiving the courtesy of being treated as their target gender and actually passing. I have gone to great lengths to "convince" myself I can. It is vital for maintaining the self delusion my mind uses to deceive itself I am two separate people that my female alter knows beyond ANY doubt, People See Her As A Cisgender Woman.

In my disbelieve that anyone could possibly see the same body in different clothes and a little makeup as anything beside unquestionably male, I put my female alter in every situation imaginable the first two years after she became self aware to prove to her I was right. To my astonishment, I Never Could.

I suppose everyone requires a different level of "proof," but these four incidences were irrefutable examples to me that people see my female alter as a woman:

-The first time a toddler reached out her arms out for my female alter to pick her up.
Children instinctively know how to tell the Mama from the "Not the Mama;" their lives depend on it. And unlike adults, they wear their hearts on their sleeves. No child is going to reach out to a woman unless she passes the Mama test.

-The first time a teenager approached my female alter thinking she was her teacher.
Next to children, teen girls have a very critical eye. If someone is going to point or snicker because they think I look like a "man in a dress" it's going to be a gaggle of teenage girls. My female alter gets confused for another woman at least once a month; it has gotten to the point she just plays along rather than explaining the mix up.

-The first time one of my female alter's male friends kissed her on the cheek.
I don't see ANY cigender guy doing that if he had any question about her being a girl.

-The first time the girl next to my female alter in the locker room pulled off her sports bra while the two were chitchatting.
Perhaps there will be a future when different genders are comfortable undressing in the same locker room. But that isn't now.

There is also an aspect of "flight hours" logged. No one has given my female alter as much as a second look in the last several thousand hours of her being out and about living her life. It just isn't possible to come in contact with that many people who would give her the courtesy of being treated as a woman unless she "passed." VA hangs his head in defeat...
~VA (pronounced Vee- Aye, the abbreviation for the State of Virginia where I live)
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Sarah1979

I wish I knew, but probably never will. Lol
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KathyLauren

Devlyn is right: it is not hard to notice if you are getting the acceptance and respect you deserve, but it is impossible to tell without asking (and therefore outing yourself) if you are truly passing. 

In some limited contexts, you might be able to tell.  I discovered that I pass photographically when someone mistook my photo on Facebook for that of a pastor with the same name.  That is a very different thing from passing in real life, though I'll accept it anyway. ;)

I resolved early on that acceptance was my goal, rather than passing.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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Jin

In my youth I could switch genders without much more than changing my clothes. Those days are history, but along with it I have reached the point where I simply don't give a rat's elbow if others think I pass or not. I know who I am.

I would say maybe when guys start paying attention to you?
When people address you with female pronouns.
When your girl clothes fit correctly.
I yam what I yam, and that's all what I yam.
-- Popeye

A wise person can learn more from fools than a fool can learn from a wise person.
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Ryuichi13

Passing happens when you go out in public and someone refers to you as your proper gender.  Simple, yet complex.

Since starting testosterone nearly two years ago, I now have a beard, a baritone voice and male musculature (YAY!!!), yet I occasionally still get clocked.  95% of the time, I'm gendered correctly, yet clocking still occasionally happens.  I usually correct them, and move on. 

Maybe the person sees something I don't, some mannerism I haven't changed yet, or maybe the simple fact that I still have relatively slender hands, a babyish face or some other thing I don't notice/haven't changed.  Idunno.  But for that instant, before I correct them, they saw something female.

So, to make a long story short, you will never know what someone sees when you go out.  The only way to truly know is to actually go out.

Good luck!

Ryuichi

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Colleen_definitely

Quote from: Ryuichi13 on October 04, 2018, 03:06:19 PM
So, to make a long story short, you will never know what someone sees when you go out.  The only way to truly know is to actually go out.

Exactly!

It's scary as hell at first too.

But if people gender you correctly you're passing.  The truth that took me a while to learn is that most (cis) people don't look that closely.  If you quack like a duck, waddle like a duck, and look more or less like a duck, then you're a duck in their eyes.

Now if you're worried because you can clock a trans person at 100 paces, just remember that most people don't have the "trans sixth sense."  We obsess over the manifestations of human sexual dimorphism, and they never did since they never had to worry about it.
As our ashes turn to dust, we shine like stars...
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krobinson103

Little stuff like eye contact from women, the personal space women around you need shrinks  to a very small distance indeed.  I had one absolutely convincing day talking to a woman in an op shop about shoes and 'us women, and 'we'' were very much in evidence. A lot of shop assistants do it as well. Men are more gallant for lack of a better word. The eyes also go well... below the face lol. I think the most convincing day was taking my daughter to a women's suffrage parade and despite being called 'daddy' no one blinked an eye.

I get a feeling of 'being in the club' with women these days and the men stand off a bit more... To me thats passing.
Every day is a totally awesome day
Every day provides opportunities and challenges
Every challenge leads to an opportunity
Every fear faced leads to one more strength
Every strength leads to greater success
Success leads to self esteem
Self Esteem leads to happiness.
Cherish every day.
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kgreen

Quote from: Virginia on October 04, 2018, 02:15:19 PM
It is extremely difficult to distinguish between a person's receiving the courtesy of being treated as their target gender and actually passing.

Yes! this ^^^ ;)

10 years post-transition and I still wonder sometimes which it is with people I encounter. But at the same time, I've always been treated as Kate, as if I'm passing, so if I can't tell the difference... is there one? Something of a Turing Test there, lol.

Interestingly, the one time I know I didn't pass with someone was while visiting a friend in a Hospice. On the way out, we encountered an older woman, a patient, who was obviously suffering from mental decline as she was loudly saying all sorts of irrational, unconnected things to the attendants around her. When she saw me, she started going on about "how handsome!" I was, lol. It was curious, as if her mental decline made her immune to the usual cues that somehow cued normal mortals into seeing me as a female. Go figure.

Otherwise, as others mentioned, there are times when you'll know you passed... or didn't. But I don't think it's possible to know for sure in every situation. Obviously if you've accumulated years of experience with no obvious questioning, you can at least bet you've been passing, but even then... every encounter is unique. The next person might always be the one who "reads" you. For me though, personally, the worry has mostly only faded with time and experience.
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Northern Star Girl

It "might" be somewhat of a mystery to know for sure if your are convincingly passing...
.... BUT beyond a shadow of a doubt you will surely know if you DON'T pass.
****Help support this website by:
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Janes Groove

Quote from: Alaskan Danielle on October 04, 2018, 09:47:42 PM
It "might" be somewhat of a mystery to know for sure if your are convincingly passing...
.... BUT beyond a shadow of a doubt you will surely know if you DON'T pass.


Amen to that sister.  We live in a binary world and there are NO shortage of people who will misgender you if they think that you were assigned male at birth.  There are tons of people who just aren't nice and don't give a darn about your feelings. 

Rule of thumb, if you're having a hard time remembering the last time you were misgendered then call it good and be thankful.
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Ryuichi13

Quote from: Janes Groove on October 04, 2018, 10:02:24 PM
Amen to that sister.  We live in a binary world and there are NO shortage of people who will misgender you if they think they perceive that you were assigned male at birth.  There are tons of people who just aren't nice and don't give a darn about your feelings. 

Rule of thumb, if you're having a hard time remembering the last time you were misgendered then call it good and be thankful.
↑ THIS! 

I was misgendered a month or two ago, but I don't remember the situation, nor do I care. [emoji6]

Ryuichi

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Angela H

    I'd love to chime in on this topic even though I have far less experience passing than most people here.

    I've been full time for two months now and I've spent a lot of it worrying about how well I pass. Constantly second guessing my voice and my mannerisms as well as my personal appearance. Then I had an experience that really helped put things into perspective.

    So, back when I went full time I threw away all my old clothes except for my workout clothes. After all, when I go running I'm just trying to exercise, not socialize. I would go running in the park in the morning by myself and usually for about half an hour at a time.

    Well, thanks to everyone's suggestions in another thread I decided to join a gym recently and I wore my (male) workout clothes when I went there. The difference was absolutely amazing to me! When I went out in guy clothes for the first time in months suddenly I found everyone staring at me like I looked totally weird, lol. It made me remember that for a while these kinds of stares were just my normal, everyday life and I hadn't even realized when they had stopped happening.

    So I guess I'm going to echo what others have said in this thread and just say that you can't know for sure if you're passing, but it's kind of obvious when you don't pass.  :P

    Oh yeah, and one other thing. You said that passing is a black/white thing, but I really don't see it that way. The way I see it when someone looks at you they'll either see:
1. a cis man
2. a trans man
3. someone ambiguous
4. a trans woman
or
5. a cis woman

    What someone sees depends on their own perceptions as well as your appearance, that's why we still get clocked sometimes no matter what we look like. I figure as long as people see me as either 4 (trans woman) or 5 (cis woman) then I'm happy  ;D
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TonyaW

I usually get gendered correctly and treated as a woman so that's passing for me.

Starting my transition at 54yo and being over 6 foot tall,  I doubt I'm often assumed to be cis, especially if I speak. 

If you're going to define passing as having people assuming you to be cis, you're never going to pass with your family. They know, so all you can ask is that they refer to and treat you as you identify.


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Ryuichi13

Quote from: TonyaW on October 04, 2018, 10:35:38 PM*snip*

Starting my transition at 54yo and being over 6 foot tall, 

I'm glad I'm not the only one that started transitioning at 54/over 50!  Unfortunately, I'm only 5'7&1/3" /171cm, so I'm a relatively short man.  Most of the women in my local transgender support group tower over me!  :o

Ryuichi


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big kim

Michelle Duff said it best.One day she had to do an errand on the other side of town, it was only when she got home she realised there were no rude remarks or pointing etc
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Andi H

I haven't been on here hardly at all lately with such a full schedule.  On that note, thanks Danielle, and others, for the kind words over on the other threads I never replied to!
I see this has been covered a bit, but a couple large factors I noticed... were not getting mis-gendered after a point, and the way guys were treating me.  Yes, women treated me differently as well, and in a good way.  But when men started asking me out, buying me gifts etc it was more evident that something had changed.  This, I should add, went hand in hand with me not really caring so much what the heck people were thinking.  Confidence in yourself goes a long way in others perception.

Andi[emoji258][emoji272][emoji179][emoji137]‍♀️

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