A few disclaimers before I start:
-Trigger Warning: discussion of rejection of trans people who don't pass
-I'm not trying to villainize anyone who has done things mentioned in this post, I'm just trying to provide support for anyone who has struggled with the idea of "passing".
-Lastly, I will be speaking in terms of trans women, because that's what I am, and that's the community I'm familiar with, but I imagine that all of this will apply equally to trans men.
Let's take a second to look at the term "Passing". What are we trying to pass as? Well that's an easy one, cis women. Why are we trying to pass? That's a little more difficult, and I'm sure that everyone has their own reasons, but I'll try to tackle some of the main ones.
-Reason 1: For safety, and so society will treat us better. I don't think anyone who has been perceived both as a trans woman and a cis woman would doubt that at least generally, society treats cis women better. Passing can buy you into that cis privilege, which can take a lot of weight off of your back on a day to day basis. Also, there are also some situations where being cis is just safer. If a trans women gets cat-called in the street while being mistaken for a cis woman, if the cat-caller realizes she's trans that can put her in serious danger.
-Reponse: This is a completely valid reason to try to pass. I know that I've been in situations where I'm scared so I talk a little higher and let my hair down, but I don't know of any trans women who have this as their only reason for wanting to pass, including myself.
-Reason 2: So people will see us as women. Even if someone uses your real name, and calls you by she/her pronouns, that doesn't necessarily mean they see you as a "real" woman. If you pass, however, people will have to actively put in effort to not see you as what you as a woman.
-Response: This may be true, but by doing this aren't we letting cis people believe that passing (or at least trying to), is the only way for us to truly be women? And by doing this we're not challenging their ideas of gender, so in reality the only people who we're only winning acceptance for are the trans people who pass.
-Reason 3: Because it makes us feel like valid, it makes us feel like we're actually women.
-Response: This is the reason that I'm most worried about, so let's start to unpack that idea.
Why does passing make us feel valid? Well let's go back to the start and ask again, what are we passing as? Cis women. So, passing as cis women makes us feel valid.
If passing as cis women is the only way for us to feel valid and like we're actually women, that means that we think, or at least feel like, cis women are more woman that trans women are. This is very hypocritical when we're the ones chanting the phrase "Trans women are real women!".
We're ashamed that we're trans, and we try to distance ourselves from that identity as much as possible, at least in terms of our appearance. If that wasn't the case why would it feel so bad when we look in the mirror and realize that we don't pass, that we look like trans women?
This was the attitude in the early days of the gay rights movement as well. The general idea was, "Yes I'm gay, and I'm going to have to accept it, but in reality I would rather just be straight". And look at where we are now, we teach every newly out gay person that even though it may be hard, it can be amazing to be gay, and you can, and should take ownership of that identity, and show the world that you're gay instead of acting like just another straight person. Imagine if we applied that mindset to trans people, and passing.
Ok so, you may be saying, "So what, we want to look like cis women, where's the harm in that?" Well, there wouldn't be any harm if all of the trans women in the world trying desperately to pass all got there by their own accord, but they didn't, they got there because society at large, and especially other trans women, tell them that they need to.
If you doubt that, just look at the ways that we treat passing. I know that I've been guilty of thinking less of a trans woman because she doesn't pass. I know that I sometimes still am guilty of that. Even if I recognize that I shouldn't think less of them, it's so ingrained in my brain that it's hard to stop. This isn't only confined to me, and don't try to deny it because you all know exactly what I'm talking about. Sometimes we go as far as mocking trans women who don't pass, or who perform femininity in a way not seen as normal, even though I know for a fact that every one of us has been in that place.
We also talk about passing as if it's some great end goal that every trans woman needs to aspire to, and even if we claim to support all trans woman regardless of appearance, the attitude is very much still there within the community.
I know that this attitude caused me great pain when I was early in transition and still bought into it, and I've seen it hurt every other trans woman who I know. I felt like passing was something that I needed to do, and every second that I didn't it hurt. Whenever I saw myself, I could only see a man, because I was never trained by the community to be able to accept trans women who don't pass.
This may seem like a small complaint, but for me, and I know for other people, this was one of the main reasons why transitioning made me hate myself so much.
It isn't hopeless though. Over time I started to realize that these ways of thinking were hurting me, so I slowly forced myself to stop. I learned to love myself, and know that I'm valid without seeing a cis woman in the mirror. In fact, now I intentionally talk in my deeper natural voice just to remind myself (and everyone around me) that yes I'm trans, and yes it's ok to be proud of that.
We'll never win acceptance for everyone until we can proudly show the world all of the trans women who don't subscribe to the norms. So to every trans woman out there who can't pass, or who doesn't pass, or who just doesn't want to fit your mold, know that you're beautiful just as you are, and you don't need to live up to someone else's idea of what it means to be you.
'Trying to pass' is not a simple concept, as the length of the previous post demonstrates. What an insightful post.
Perhaps addressing the bigotry inherent in our societies...note the plural. We obviously hold cis-gendered folk as the standard to which we ascribe. How many thousands of years of evolution did it take and how many centuries of intolerance and castigation have the non-standard gendered experienced. We are bucking those trends, trying to resolve the inequities in our roles and appearances in a fraction of the time it took to establish the 'norms' of convention.
I cringe and wring my hands at the pain and agony that goes on daily. It's hard enough for us, living in the western world to reach for our identities...for most of us money is a primary wall every day, let alone passing. It's not about passing maybe? It's about happiness and acceptance.....
Am I missing the point?
I just verbalized to my wife earlier today my desire to pass... I'm not sure it can be helped. There's a certain (abstract) way I envision myself and it is definitely not as a man trying to look/act like a woman. It is kind of sad but true and I'm not sure if it can be helped.
I'm going to keep some of the points in this post regardless and remember them when I'm feeling down. I'm sure this will be a bumpy road and hope that I can gain some positivity here.
Thanks for the great post
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
Let's take a second to look at the term "Passing". What are we trying to pass as? Well that's an easy one, cis women.
I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. For some people, who they want to be is who they see in their mind's eye. And it's not so much a case of going into the process thinking "I want to be seen as a cis woman." Okay, perhaps the two go hand in hand and they're largely one and the same. But the thought processes behind it may be entirely different. It's a small, but important difference. Sometimes the person thinks "I want to be seen as me." That isn't wrong.
I understand what you're saying. And my heart agrees with you 100%. Be you, whoever that is. But by that same token, if someone wants to be themselves and that self is as identical to a cis woman as it's possible to be... if that's the person they see in their dreams and who their soul tells them they are... that isn't wrong, you know?
I've always had issues with the "P" word because for me it implies trying to meet other people's standards. But for some folks that is genuinely how they define themselves. Heck, in a lot of things we do in our lives that's how we
all define ourselves. People look for outside validation to affirm what they think themselves. It's part of human nature. Very few people are strong enough in their self-belief to not care at all what anyone else thinks.
This is where the problems arise. See a good deal of trans women want people to see them as women. Whether it's challenging someone's idea of gender or not. It's not about the other person, not really. It's about an affirmation of how the person sees themselves. And having other people see what they themselves have seen for so long makes them feel like yeah, I am finally me.
That doesn't mean that people in different situations don't want that, or shouldn't have that, or that it makes who they are less valid than anyone else. This is the giant issue with it all. It's the association. It's saying "Okay you pass so you're legitimate and I may not pass as well as you so I'm somehow not."
That clearly isn't true. People are who they are, regardless of what other people see and tell you in your life. That core individual is what drives each of us to transition in the first place. But there's a nasty habit of saying that how one person does it is right, and how someone else does it is wrong. That it should be one or the other. And I don't believe that should be the case. I don't think you have to make people make a choice that they should have to choose to be seen as close to a cis woman as possible or should have to choose to try and make others examine their view of what gender is and how close to a pre-defined set of standards someone has to come before they are "accepted". There will always be both, and a whole raft more, types of people within our community and I think we can all find common ground to thrive within it.
I didn't mean to dismiss anyone who does pass, or who wants to look a certain way that happens to be similar to how cis women look, sorry if that was unclear in the original post. I try not to condemn anyone for how they present. I have absolutely no problem with individual trans people who find looking a way that happens to make them pass to be rewarding, but I do have a problem with the more general notion that trans people need to pass to be valid.
Even if some trans people passing does contribute to that idea, I don't think it's their fault unless they're saying "I'm valid and people who don't pass aren't".
Also, I agree that it isn't all about just looking like cis women. When I'm passing really well and am confident about it, my thought process isn't "wow I look cis!", it's more like "wow I look good!". However (at least for me), I know that even though I may not be consciously thinking it, my brain image of what a "good looking" woman looks like is based off of the traditional ideas of cis feminine beauty.
Thanks for pointing those things out!
Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 05:53:05 PM
I have absolutely no problem with individual trans people who find looking a way that happens to make them pass to be rewarding, but I do have a problem with the more general notion that trans people need to pass to be valid.
Even if some trans people passing does contribute to that idea, I don't think it's their fault unless they're saying "I'm valid and people who don't pass aren't".
Very much agree with you. People are valid. End of. Anyone who comes here and tells me they are who they are... then that's all the information I need to know. People know themselves far better than I know them. No one is really in a position to judge someone other than the person themselves. And heavens know we can be our own worst critics most of the time, lol.
QuoteAlso, I agree that it isn't all about just looking like cis women. When I'm passing really well and am confident about it, my thought process isn't "wow I look cis!", it's more like "wow I look good!". However (at least for me), I know that even though I may not be consciously thinking it, my brain image of what a "good looking" woman looks like is based off of the traditional ideas of cis feminine beauty.
If that's what you find beautiful then, again, nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For me personally it has nothing to do with how someone looks at all. Their beauty comes from inside. But I'm weird, asexual, and physical appearance doesn't really have much impact on me. But different people see and feel different things. It's one of the beautiful things about being human. We're all different. :)
It is much less stress to blend in than stand out.
I do not know if I pass. I have been told I do but then again are those people being nice.
When I was expressing part time and just on HRT I was walking down the street after group. Two people in group said for me to not walk with them because I draw attention to them. That hurt. Last summer I ran into one of the woman and she no longer wears a wig. She has very very thin hair on top. So she changed her perspective on the issue.
Years later and I blend in very well. I was asked Wednesday by a nurse, before an operation, when was the last time I had my period. I looked at her and she asked if I still had my period. I said I am trans and she said ok. I could have said a long time. I was also asked this question last May by a nurse before an operation.
I have endured a lot of pain becoming me. In my personal life, economically, emotionally and physically. I am really happy being me and I enjoy every day. I want to be seen as a nice person and female. I am female.
I do not know if I pass and I care less about the issue than I did in the past; perhaps it is because I blend in well. Passing is easier that standing out, in my perspective. Passing 90% is easier living my life than passing 10%.
Wednesday I used Lyft to get to the Hospital. The driver gave me his phone number and he wants me to call him. :)
I'm not a cis woman, I'm not trying to "pass" as one, and life is fine. When you accept and love yourself, the rest doesn't matter.
I suppose I'm lucky in a sense that passing was something that came fairly quickly and easily. However, I've never sought to 'pass'. My journey has always been to that place where I feel most happily me. Having lived is South Korea, being tall and very white I spend over a decade being pointed out every single day. Before that I was openly gay, never tried to hide that.
Do I like being able to blend into a crowd? For sure! Is it something I obsess over? No.
I'm me, I'm trans, I'm a woman, I'm six foot two and I do 'pass'. When I didn't pass it didn't bother me. Its about living an authentic life, being yourself, and not caring what people might say or do because 99% of the time their opinion or actions means nothing to me and my life.
I don't pass, i don't care. I look OK for my age, 61 but am 6'1 & 1/2" , big build with a voice like Lemmy. I am accepted which matters more to me. I hang out with punks & bikers, people who if you show respect you get it back.I go every month to the open night for none members at Liverpool Hells Angels clubhouse, guys open doors for me & pull up chairs!
https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p206x206/31046354_621161471568380_2876802617080545280_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=37055da6fbfe42b8b9da302ff9c861bf&oe=5D4418FB
https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/32841504_634250660259461_8706391560784183296_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=4611fcb38fb5d204cf2fa6854eaffbb8&oe=5D359AB2
Quote from: Devlyn on April 05, 2019, 08:02:27 PM
I'm not a cis woman, I'm not trying to "pass" as one, and life is fine. When you accept and love yourself, the rest doesn't matter.
Love This! Such a short yet sweet and honest comment.
Today's society dictates how we pass. Even many Cis women are judged on their appearence, weight, fashion etc.
Many of these women therefore seek cosmetic surgery or take drastic measures to 'pass' in today's society.
Even some men are now are grooming and looking after themselves more, again sometimes seeking surgery too.
No different to many trans women whoes sole aim is to pass, however some have the ability to do it naturally
compared to doing it forced or acting. Whereas some others need help and guidance.
Regardless, confidence is the key word to passing anyway.
For me, quite honestly, i'd rather pass because then I could pretend like I really was born "a real boy" without all the stress and baggage and uncertainty that comes with ->-bleeped-<- and having to constantly rationalise and justify everything to people.
Sadly, a lot of our experience as humans is this need to please others, this need to justify ourselves to others and seeking external approval.
It's unhealthy for sure.
I think part of this "cis is real" thing is because that's what society TELLS us.
But also, I don't want to be seen as a girl dressing up as a boy, I don't want it to be thought of as a costume and depressingly, in our culture that's precisely how it's seen if you don't pass.
You're just "playing dressup"
And it sucks.
Maybe if we had less of these narrowly defined boxes of what "boy" and "girl" was, this desire to pass, this NEED to pass wouldn't be such a thing.
Gender roles and societal expectations are stupid and I hate them, and I fully intend to subvert the hell out of them but right now, if I wear the skirts I like it undermines my identity and makes me feel like "just a girl" which i've had to be all my life. I don't want to be a girl! I want to be a boy in a freaking skirt!
But I can't really do that till I pass. Boo.
And that's less about me and my image of myself and more about the people outside.
See if I don't dress in a typically masculine manner, if I don't try to really be as male as I can, to outsiders it's like i'm not really "trying hard enough" or "not trans enough"
and this idea that you're not "trans enough" is a hard thing to shake.
Society is dumb and gender expectations are actively damaging to everyone regardless of whether they're cis or trans, but of course we've all grown up with this internalised view and it's difficult to unlearn those expectations.
Transmen of course have it a little easier in that generally speaking when we don't pass we're just seen as "tomboys" or at worse "butch lesbian" while transwomen get a lot more crap meaning passing becomes a safety issue as well as mentioned in OP.
I admit, I kinda resent that I feel like I can't wear a skirt now. I LOVE skirts, they're comfortable and fun. My taste in clothing or colours or aesthetics isn't defined by my gender or my genitals but because society says it SHOULD be, me liking skirts feels like it undermines my masculinity and assertation that I am a boy in a currently feminine body.
If I wear a skirt I will just look like a girl in a skirt, i'll go back to how I have been my whole life. I'll be putting that costume on again and at the same time casting doubt over my gender identity for not conforming.
I mean I hate conformity, conformity is dumb, but yeah, we feel we HAVE to especially when we're still trying to find ourselves and assert that identity upon the world.
Quote from: Sephirah on April 05, 2019, 05:20:20 PM
I've always had issues with the "P" word because for me it implies trying to meet other people's standards. But for some folks that is genuinely how they define themselves. Heck, in a lot of things we do in our lives that's how we all define ourselves. People look for outside validation to affirm what they think themselves. It's part of human nature. Very few people are strong enough in their self-belief to not care at all what anyone else thinks.
This is where the problems arise. See a good deal of trans women want people to see them as women. Whether it's challenging someone's idea of gender or not. It's not about the other person, not really. It's about an affirmation of how the person sees themselves. And having other people see what they themselves have seen for so long makes them feel like yeah, I am finally me.
Hello again Sephirah
I agree completely with your paras above. This is precisely as I see it.
I am going fulltime public in Summer but I have been out locally en femme many times on my own but have met others while out.
My preference is to pass to a reasonable degree. The reason for that for me is that I know myself very well indeed and far better than anyone else knows me and I seek others' validation/perception of me just to agree with my knowledge of me. I am not strong enough to not care at all what others may think. However their validation/perception is secondary to my knowledge.
Hugs
Pamela xx
Quote from: Sephirah on April 05, 2019, 06:10:55 PM
If that's what you find beautiful then, again, nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For me personally it has nothing to do with how someone looks at all. Their beauty comes from inside. But I'm weird, asexual, and physical appearance doesn't really have much impact on me. But different people see and feel different things. It's one of the beautiful things about being human. We're all different. :)
Hello again
I can see both sides of this point. I think physical appearance (we both correctly state physical appearance as opposed to physical attraction) does help many people feel better about themselves. Beauty comes from inside also most certainly.
Coincidentally as you mention it, I am also asexual.
Hugs
Pamela xx
There is another reason. Social interactions go much more smoothly if they can easily sort you into the gender binary. If they can't, their minds get hung up on trying to figure this out, which throws away some of their capacity to do stuff. Which matters in today's world of complexity, with cashiers having to remember all sorts of stuff to get their job done. It doesn't really matter if they change their mind later, after they have done the important stuff in taking your order properly.
I think passing makes life a little easier. I am full time for about 7 month now, and I had my numbers of fail in the early beginning. HRT might have changed my appearance more than I thought over this time, I don't know, but I am sure my longer more feminine hair makes a difference, too. Anyway, I have not had a single passing failure for quite a while now, and I also beliebe the way you carry your self/present yourself, and the confidence you show, makes a difference if one passes or not!
Maybe I'm lucky or something. I'm still pre T but pass about 80% of the time. Until I open my mouth. Even with my huge chest. I have a G-cup. Most of the time binding it. Sometimes not. Body needs to rest.
For me passing is important. I hate to be seen as a manly woman.
Tony
I don't really worry about passing anymore, ever since being full-time and on hormones the worry just turned off.
Of course I've had an androgynous body (and voice) to start with, that helped a lot and I consider myself lucky!
Well... I do take pride in how I look and dress though!
I think it's a very complicated issue that will always be discussed but won't ever change.
I've never thought as myself as a trans woman first... I am me.. female. This is how I've viewed myself since transition finally gave me that freedom of honesty. I don't want others to view me from the trans lens and ask me about it, I'm more than that label and will not discuss it daily outside the confines of a safe space like this. We deserve our privacy.
Being hidden offers us the freedom to be ourselves without restriction or reservation.
There are downsides to this though, your capacity to express disdain of transphobia in such situations is impeded.
I once sat in my partners brothers flat while he and his mates laughed about a friend of mine they'd seen walking through the local shopping centre - I couldn't defend her without implicating myself, so I sat silently while they bitched. I felt so cowardly because that isn't who I am.
I see a lot of transphobia in my life but must sit silently while it happens. I was at work and a post-operative woman came in for a gynaecological visit and my colleagues were going wild, and I couldn't vocalise my disappointment in them because I was too fearful - I'm 4 years in, too deep to out myself now! That same evening while we closed up my employer started saying disparaging things to a colleague about trans women while I sat beside them doing the daily banking..... It was horrible!!
That doctor is amazing though, they swarmed over her asking her what it was like (practically hysterical) and she said very irately, "A VAGINA"... LOL -- That shut em' up.
EDIT: Well this is clearly a way that passing hurts us...
Hi Folks, 10 April 2019
I'm out and open about my Transgender status. I don't pass and probably never will. I'll be 79 in four months, wear women's clothes, and really don't care what other's think. I care about what I think. I'm a Transgender Female and am proud of it.
I kind of look at it as if I were an adopted child, someone special. Someone whose parents picked them out of all the rest. They didn't settle for whatever nature gave them. They went out of their way to pick me. As a Transgender Female. I picked my gender, not settling for what nature gave me and I am proud of it.
Recently I had an appointment with a doctor, at my age I see lots of them often. During my conversation with the Doctor I told him I am Transgender. He said "Congratulations, reached out and shook my hand and said: I'm Gay." It brought tears to my eyes that he would do that because he didn't have to and I'd have never guessed. I was honored by his gesture.
I think we tend to put too much pressure on ourselves trying for the brass ring when there really isn't any need except in our minds.
Wishing every trans person all the happiness and success the world has to offer..
Best Always, Love
Christine
Thanks Paige. This thread has me spinning a bit.
Sure I want to pass, for all the right and wrong reasons.
It can hurt particularly bad when other transfolk reject or distance themselves from another who is relatively unpassable compared to themselves.
I really don't think I'm in any position to judge someone else for passability . Yet, I can remember doing this towards someone in a transgroup, because of their refusal to shave their full beard while presenting female.
Who the heck am I to say anything or judge them? I may not even to stand up wearing their shoes.
Am I a doll? Yes :) No matter what someone else may think, from their perspective.
Is this important? ? ? ? ?
Am I in a position to judge feminine presentation? No!! But I can learn from others mistakes, esp if it shows me something about myself.
I passed as female easier when younger and thinner. Years of heavier, "manly" work changed my body, with the help of T. And eating like the hungry male I was trying to be :)
Quote from: christinej78 on April 10, 2019, 04:20:34 AM
Hi Folks, 10 April 2019
I'm out and open about my Transgender status. I don't pass and probably never will. I'll be 79 in four months, wear women's clothes, and really don't care what other's think. I care about what I think. I'm a Transgender Female and am proud of it.
I kind of look at it as if I were an adopted child, someone special. Someone whose parents picked them out of all the rest. They didn't settle for whatever nature gave them. They went out of their way to pick me. As a Transgender Female. I picked my gender, not settling for what nature gave me and I am proud of it.
Recently I had an appointment with a doctor, at my age I see lots of them often. During my conversation with the Doctor I told him I am Transgender. He said "Congratulations, reached out and shook my hand and said: I'm Gay." It brought tears to my eyes that he would do that because he didn't have to and I'd have never guessed. I was honored by his gesture.
I think we tend to put too much pressure on ourselves trying for the brass ring when there really isn't any need except in our minds.
Wishing every trans person all the happiness and success the world has to offer..
Best Always, Love
Christine
Love you Christinej78
I am grateful that you are here
I really don't like the idea that I'm somehow hurting myself or others by not constantly telling everyone I meet and reminding everyone I know that I am trans. I'm of the opinion that you don't have to "act trans" any more than anyone has to "act gay" for fear of being a traitor to your identity if you don't embrace a stereotype.
If you're loud and proud about it that's perfectly fine. I personally don't have a desire to act as such.
Ah. I almost got into a fight with some aggressive idiots over shopping in the "wrong" section. Not sure if I passed or not or what, but that was a close shave. It's not like trans men don't get into trouble. I regularly get into bathroom trouble as well.
Quote from: Colleen_definitely on April 10, 2019, 10:47:30 AM
If you're loud and proud about it that's perfectly fine. I personally don't have a desire to act as such.
Me neither
Please be careful Jamie-lee. Please find a way out without throwing down with some guys who won't accept you as a man, and possibly getting hurt permanently.
I realize that this is the opposite way for me, but I have stopped using women's restrooms altogether. Even if I'm dressed very femme. I have weighed the odds of the looks and harassment I get in the mens room, versus the protective response from females against me in the women's room, (and others stepping in to protect the females), and decided its just better for me to take the chance in the mens room and not risk making any woman uncomfortable.
It sucks. I guess I really want to pass, and maybe this is harming me
Quote from: Colleen_definitely on April 10, 2019, 10:47:30 AM
I really don't like the idea that I'm somehow hurting myself or others by not constantly telling everyone I meet and reminding everyone I know that I am trans. I'm of the opinion that you don't have to "act trans" any more than anyone has to "act gay" for fear of being a traitor to your identity if you don't embrace a stereotype.
If you're loud and proud about it that's perfectly fine. I personally don't have a desire to act as such.
I am very much like you. I am a woman, and if I feel it is necessary for a person to know that i am trans, I will tell them. But it will always be on my terms, and not on the terms of some trans community (nobody asked me if I want to join them)! I might be a pretty hugely woman, but not all cis women are beauty queens either, but I am a woman.
And at some point (very likely after my SRS), being trans will end for me, because I have arrived!
Maddie, your safety is priority one. It does not make you less trans.
I'm not out and proud either. It's not me. I just am. A lot of people already know. And I can't erase the memory of the female me in their minds. But what I can do is give them new memories of me being myself.
Tony
Quote from: Maddie on April 10, 2019, 11:00:33 AM
Me neither
Please be careful Jamie-lee.
I realize that this is the opposite way for me, but I have stopped using women's restrooms altogether. Even if I'm dressed very femme. I have weighed the odds of the looks and harassment I get in the mens room, versus the protective response from females against me in the women's room, (and others stepping in to protect the females), and decided its just better for me to take the chance in the mens room and not risk making any woman uncomfortable.
It sucks. I guess I really want to pass, and maybe this is harming me
And this depends on your confidence in yourself as a woman! I was challenged once early in my full times, and my answer was a questions: if they want to see my parts! Not a sound came back, and I could pee in the comfort of a female bathroom (including the toilet seat protectors, which I have never seen in a male bathroom).
Thank you for your care Maddie. I usually don't get have any problems with shopping in the men's section, but this one time, idk. Sometimes some close minded people have something against me because I don't look stereotypically male or female.
As for the bathrooms, I'd very much rather not risk. Women's bathrooms are safe. ... plus they have trash cans. I need them when on period.
I think there's an unfortunate confusion between "passing" for the express purpose of hiding transgender identity, and attempting to appear female (or male) for your own gratification or sense of aesthetics and then "passing" as a side effect. Hiding my trans-ness isn't necessarily the primary purpose of engaging in activities that others might call "passing". It's just that my sense of aesthetics happens to be identical to that of a lot of cis-women. If I wanted to look male, I'd just continue living the life that I was living two years ago without any change. But I don't want to look male, and I'm not a man, so I don't do that.
I am public, open, and out. I routinely speak on trans and LGBTQ+ issues. I conduct Trans 101, Queer 101, LGBTQ+ Vocabulary, radio communications and antenna physics classes. OK, some of that is irrelevant, more or less, but...
I lost privilege when I came out and my gender presentation changed from passing as a male to being an obviously transgender person. After a heck of a lot of work, surgeries, and practice, practice, practice, I am now seen as a woman, and accorded the privileges of a woman, less than a man, but much more than an obviously trans* person in this culture.
I now have passing privilege. I can walk down the street with odds similar to a ciswoman of being assaulted, straight-arm punched, or harassed, much better than before I passed. I can walk into shops and not worry about some customer or clerk calling me out. When seated in a restaurant I no longer worry that the waiter will "Sir" me and then ignore me, never taking an order.
When doing a presentation on radio communications to law enforcement personnel, I no longer have half the class walking out. I am now booking more tech presentations than ever, in fact.
So, yes, having 'passing privilege' makes daily life and earning a living in this culture much easier.
Now, I have also been criticized for passing. I have been told that I am 'stealing femininity', as though being femme was somehow supply-limited, a zero-sum game. I have been told that by passing, I am somehow not supporting the "transgender cause". Uh, see the list of classes I do pro-bono at the top. I have been told that I am "not trans enough" and "too trans", again failing to meet someone else's standards.
I'll tell you what. You do you, and I'll do me. I will live my life as best as is comfortable for me, and others are free to do the same for themselves.
To ride on Michelle's post a bit, I think that cajoling others to be visibly "out" at all times for the sake of activism is pretty selfish. No one should change their own life just to suit other people's wants. Whether it's better for worse for activism or visibilty is irrelevant.
People will do what they want for the reasons they want, whether it's "passing" or not. Their actions and motives aren't really anyone else's business.
Quote from: Lucca on April 10, 2019, 04:16:43 PM
To ride on Michelle's post a bit, I think that cajoling others to be visibly "out" at all times for the sake of activism is pretty selfish. No one should change their own life just to suit other people's wants. Whether it's better for worse for activism or visibilty is irrelevant.
People will do what they want for the reasons they want, whether it's "passing" or not. Their actions and motives aren't really anyone else's business.
I am with you! I went out only after I had a pretty good idea that I might pass most of the time!
I am not a member of any activist group, ans as i said already, I neither prescribe to any lesbian nor to any transgender group, because I dislike most of the stuff and ways they are representing themselves in public. If anything, I think they turn the general public against us!
I am I, and nobody of any self declared group can police me into acting the way they feel I should act! I did not sign any contract with them!
Think of it this way; would you tell a feminine cisgender woman that she needs to make herself appear more manly in order to further trans visibility, or would you presume that she may be trying to cling to unhealthy societal pressure by attempting to make herself appear female? Probably not, so why would you say that to a trans woman?
The idea or concept of passing seems a completely subjective matter and based on cultural norms. It seems few of us here are expressing any desire to be coerced, judged, policed or invalidated by any standard. We do voluntarily share and compare our progress with one another about transition and the milestones along this shared journey.
In fact this is a "peer support website" where we engage each other on a forum and hopefully assist each other in creating a safe place. Some people do want and do to ask for assistance in multiple ways that might improve their sense of gender congruity, or gender identity or simply their sense of self. Seems no need here to declare anyone in or out of the clubhouse. There is no oath of office, special handshake or membership rituals for being part of what some feel is community right here. A community that each of us has a part in creating.
"Trying to pass" often leads to trying too hard, and wind up failing to pass. I have been guilty of this during the beginning of my transition.
Then comes the hornet's nest. If someone can pass as a woman with little effort, and goes stealth, she is only harming herself. She basically separates herself from finding friends, and possibly love, by hiding from herself.
When a trans woman can stand tall and pass without question as a cis woman, why should she hide? She certainly doesn't have to reveal that she is trans unless she wants to.
I've never thought about passing. At my height I could only fit in with the starting lineup of the Lakers not the Sparks. I determined to be the best me I could present and the perceptions belong to the beholder. Not me.
Hi, Paige
I've read your post several times, and for some reason I've felt troubled. I don't know where this will go, but please permit me to try to write down my thoughts. I'm afraid what I write may in turn be troubling to some—if so, please let me know and I'll remove it, or ask the moderators to do so. I don't even remotely claim that anyone else feels this way. Please also forgive me if I ramble as I write.
I very much want to always pass, as it makes life very much easier than not doing so. I also definitely want people to see me as a woman. When they don't, I try to accept it like I've accepted reactions to errors I've made when learning a new language. If no-one points out something is wrong, I'm much less likely to ever find out, let alone correct it.
Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
Why does passing make us feel valid? Well let's go back to the start and ask again, what are we passing as? Cis women. So, passing as cis women makes us feel valid.
If passing as cis women is the only way for us to feel valid and like we're actually women, that means that we think, or at least feel like, cis women are more woman that trans women are. This is very hypocritical when we're the ones chanting the phrase "Trans women are real women!".
Yes, being perceived as what I have felt I am ever since childhood does make me feel extremely good. I guess
valid is a perfectly accurate term, although I for some reason am not very fond of it. I've never once felt like or wished to be a
trans woman, as to me personally the prefix, while valid, emphasizes
otherness. I very much want to fix or minimize any feature I can, whether physical or semantic, that clearly sets me apart from my sisters.
In any case I couldn't ever classify myself a "real" woman in the sense that I possess features and experiences my sisters don't, and lack those that they do. If a
real woman is an olympic athlete, I can at the very best strive to participate in the paralympics. Had I transitioned as a child, things might have been slightly better, but in reality even that would not have made me the same. This is my personal reality.
Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
We're ashamed that we're trans, and we try to distance ourselves from that identity as much as possible, at least in terms of our appearance. If that wasn't the case why would it feel so bad when we look in the mirror and realize that we don't pass, that we look like trans women?
While I've never felt ashamed of being what I am, I do want to fit in the best I can. This does include appearance and voice. I also do know that I cannot ever address everything that sets me apart.
I know some are in a better position than I am. I also know some others struggle more. I accept what I am—hopefully the best that I can be at any given moment—and sincerely hope others can do so as well.
Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
This was the attitude in the early days of the gay rights movement as well. The general idea was, "Yes I'm gay, and I'm going to have to accept it, but in reality I would rather just be straight". And look at where we are now, we teach every newly out gay person that even though it may be hard, it can be amazing to be gay, and you can, and should take ownership of that identity, and show the world that you're gay instead of acting like just another straight person. Imagine if we applied that mindset to trans people, and passing.
It's very interesting to hear that gay people used to say they would have preferred to be straight. I myself have never truly wanted to be a normal male, except in a moment of desperation when it seemed there was absolutely no way to ever change the documentation that modern society seems so fond of.
I guess customs differ. Most gay men and women I actually have worked with don't really seem to consciously advertise the fact to the world, although they may be open about it when the subject comes up. As for myself—the very thought of
intentionally acting in such a way as to proclaim to the world that I'm transsexual feels foreign. I doubt I could ever bring myself to do it.
Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
Ok so, you may be saying, "So what, we want to look like cis women, where's the harm in that?" Well, there wouldn't be any harm if all of the trans women in the world trying desperately to pass all got there by their own accord, but they didn't, they got there because society at large, and especially other trans women, tell them that they need to.
No-one—cis or trans—has ever
told me I need to look, sound and act natural. It is something I myself feel is necessary for my own sake. To me it is again a bit like language. I much prefer to become fluent than to entrust figuring out what I mean to the native party. Even when people are accommodating, conversation to me feels much more pleasant and rich when I know they don't need to constantly expend energy on filtering out incongruences. My own comfort grows as this effortlessness increases.
Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
If you doubt that, just look at the ways that we treat passing. I know that I've been guilty of thinking less of a trans woman because she doesn't pass. I know that I sometimes still am guilty of that. Even if I recognize that I shouldn't think less of them, it's so ingrained in my brain that it's hard to stop. This isn't only confined to me, and don't try to deny it because you all know exactly what I'm talking about. Sometimes we go as far as mocking trans women who don't pass, or who perform femininity in a way not seen as normal, even though I know for a fact that every one of us has been in that place.
I do feel pity when I see anyone who doesn't fit in, trans or not. I must also openly admit I'm guilty of once thinking
"Skirt gorilla!" when I saw and heard a profanity-spewing, bald, bowlegged, scraggly-chinned trans lady wearing a tutu, fishnets, high heels, tight black leather jacket and a sparkly handbag in public. The outfit may have been a means to alleviate deeper pain than I've ever felt—but the sight and sound left me utterly terrified. In this instance I do not deny that I was completely unable of categorizing the person as female in any sense.
Had I been able to perceive any effort to fit in where societal norms are concerned, I might have not felt the sense of personal danger I did—a paralyzing fear that the image might somehow rub off on me by association.
Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
We also talk about passing as if it's some great end goal that every trans woman needs to aspire to, and even if we claim to support all trans woman regardless of appearance, the attitude is very much still there within the community.
To me getting accepted is a personal necessity. I do support all trans women who have the same need, regardless of whether they wish to pass. However, I cannot personally imagine I myself could ever dare to expect, let alone demand acceptance without also trying to do everything in my power to fit in. To me—again personally—that includes passing the best I can.
While the feedback I receive has helped convince me that dropping the male facade has (fortunately) returned the way I move and speak to the female range (that paradoxically caused me torment in my childhood,) it also tells me that testosterone did masculinize my features and voice sufficiently to matter. I'm no more reluctant to spend time, effort and money to address that than I am to otherwise take care of my physical and mental health. To me the investment is worth it.
Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
I know that this attitude caused me great pain when I was early in transition and still bought into it, and I've seen it hurt every other trans woman who I know. I felt like passing was something that I needed to do, and every second that I didn't it hurt. Whenever I saw myself, I could only see a man, because I was never trained by the community to be able to accept trans women who don't pass.
This may seem like a small complaint, but for me, and I know for other people, this was one of the main reasons why transitioning made me hate myself so much.
I'm also not conscious of having ever been trained or not trained to accept or not accept anyone. However, I definitely do categorize people subconsciously and instantaneously, and have done so since the earliest age I can remember. My culture uses the familial terms
aunt, uncle, etc. as automatically affixed prefixes, especially during childhood. As I've never observed a child make a mistake when addressing or talking about "cis" people, I believe this quality is innate in most of us.
I completely agree that not being categorized the way I feel does hurt tremendously. It has hurt me every time I've experienced it. However, again, I've chosen to accept the hurt as feedback. Transitioning has never made me hate myself. Rather, it has helped me accept myself. It is something I
needed to do, as remaining untrue to myself constantly etched away at my soul. I'm free and returning home.
Quote from: Paige Heuer on April 05, 2019, 04:00:40 PM
It isn't hopeless though. Over time I started to realize that these ways of thinking were hurting me, so I slowly forced myself to stop. I learned to love myself, and know that I'm valid without seeing a cis woman in the mirror. In fact, now I intentionally talk in my deeper natural voice just to remind myself (and everyone around me) that yes I'm trans, and yes it's ok to be proud of that.
We'll never win acceptance for everyone until we can proudly show the world all of the trans women who don't subscribe to the norms. So to every trans woman out there who can't pass, or who doesn't pass, or who just doesn't want to fit your mold, know that you're beautiful just as you are, and you don't need to live up to someone else's idea of what it means to be you.
I very much admire people who are strong enough to not conform, and at the same time loving, caring, considerate and wholesome enough to be fully accepted and loved by society at large. For me blending in is a necessity—I simply am not good enough, nor do I have sufficient drive or pride to constantly display what has caused me pain if I can avoid doing so.
Actually, looking back, in my school days I did end up being rather non-conformist. The reason was that there was absolutely
no way that I could fit in the boy group. No matter what I did I was questioned, derided and shunned for being too out of the norm. My movements, body language and speech were likely abhorrent to many of my peers. I eventually changed schools, grew my hair, wore whatever I felt like, and started to ignore people's opinions. The "out" group accepted me because I spoke their language, and the elite group because of my grades.
However, even back then I never
wanted to
not belong—and now that I no longer keep up the boy facade, I do very much want to fit in. I want to no longer belong to just the fringes, but be casually accepted by others as well. As I have neither the power nor the desire to force others to accommodate me, I want to make it so that they never even have to think about it.
To be honest, I personally do not think acceptance can ever be won. Rather I think it can at the most be to some degree earned. E.g. while my school's honor society did accept me, I simply can't think of any way I might have been able to
force the main body of the students to do so.
Come to think of it, my conscious non-conformity in school may equate to the choice of the person I mentioned above who scared me so. If that is the case, I can but belatedly think of her with the deepest sympathy. Desperation can drive out all hope of ever fitting in, and provides in return nothing but the satisfaction of knowing one is consciously thumbing one's nose at society. The feeling is something that I wish on no-one.
I'm aware some may think my choices and way of thinking amount to a betrayal of their cause. However, I'm now and have always been primarily an individual, and only secondarily a part of the abstract collective that consists of everything trans. As a person I have no desire to be different than other women. As trans I hope that I can transcend the label in such a way that no-one thinks me in any way different from everyone else where work, simple daily interaction or friendship is concerned.
In any case, be whatever may be I'll always be merely me. Thus, I strive, hope and wish to as best I can be the me that I want to be.
Quote from: Maddie on April 10, 2019, 09:05:59 AM
Thanks Paige. This thread has me spinning a bit.
Sure I want to pass, for all the right and wrong reasons.
It can hurt particularly bad when other transfolk reject or distance themselves from another who is relatively unpassable compared to themselves.
I really don't think I'm in any position to judge someone else for passability . Yet, I can remember doing this towards someone in a transgroup, because of their refusal to shave their full beard while presenting female.
Who the heck am I to say anything or judge them? I may not even to stand up wearing their shoes.
Am I a doll? Yes :) No matter what someone else may think, from their perspective.
Is this important? ? ? ? ?
Am I in a position to judge feminine presentation? No!! But I can learn from others mistakes, esp if it shows me something about myself.
I passed as female easier when younger and thinner. Years of heavier, "manly" work changed my body, with the help of T. And eating like the hungry male I was trying to be :)
Love you Christinej78
I am grateful that you are here
Hi Maddie, 11 April 2019
Welcome to Susan's Place; I think you will find this a safe and welcoming retreat populated by some of the nicest people anywhere. There is a lot of experience and knowledge here so feel free to ask questions as there are many folks here that can and will be happy to answer them.
Thank you for the beautiful comment. I don't think I deserve it but I'll gratefully accept it.
Take care; wishing you the best of luck with your transition, your life and future.
Best Always, Love you too
Christine
Quote from: zirconia on April 11, 2019, 05:58:53 PM
In any case, be whatever may be I'll always be merely me. Thus, I strive, hope and wish to as best I can be the me that I want to be.
Wow, Zirconia, thank you. When I first saw your post, I thought, "There's no way I'm going to read all
that!" Then I started reading, and couldn't stop. I wish I'd written it.
You perfectly describe the way I feel. My wish to live what remains of my life without a T prefix is valid, and in no way invalidates anyone else's point of view.
We are all individuals, members of society as a whole, and parts of subgroups. Those subgroups can be self-chosen, or imposed on us by society based on how we are perceived through our presentation or actions. I am doing my best, through the way I act and show myself to the world, to avoid having
trans imposed on me by others, and instead choose
female for myself. This is who I am (and have been for my entire existence), and is not so much an effort as it is the natural way of living my life.
I am far from perfect, but I try to not judge others for differing points of view or presentation. All are valid. I support my sisters and brothers struggling through the same things I am, but the word
pride has never applied to me. While I have walked in a parade waving our flag, that felt like a very special circumstance, something that was appreciated by both me and the crowds cheering for us. In day to day life I endeavor to not beacon my trans-ness to the world. My comfort, and sometimes my safety are dependent on it.
Being trans is something imposed on me by some fluke of biology, and I don't find overcoming it something to be proud of. I just want to live quietly as my true self. After a literal half-century of struggling internally, I don't have the strength or will for external struggles.
So yes, passing is extremely important to me. If some believe that my need to be seen as my true self is somehow hurting others, I can live with that.
Quote from: steph2.0 on April 12, 2019, 07:13:25 AM
...
Being trans is something imposed on me by some fluke of biology, and I don't find overcoming it something to be proud of. I just want to live quietly as my true self. After a literal half-century of struggling internally, I don't have the strength or will for external struggles.
So yes, passing is extremely important to me. If some believe that my need to be seen as my true self is somehow hurting others, I can live with that
Well said, Stephanie!
I am a woman. I am a woman physically, anatomically, and psychologically.
Transgender merely describes the relatively circuitous path I took to reach this point in my life. It is how I got here, not who I am.
There are folks who may disagree with this. There are folks who see me as
less than, a being less worthy because I exist, because I took action to make myself whole. So be it. But, when they
act on their misguided beliefs to cause harm, I choose to act as well, to protect myself, those I love, and all who are erroneously seen as less worthy because they choose to live.
Quote from: Michelle_P on April 12, 2019, 10:06:20 AM
Well said, Stephanie!
I am a woman. I am a woman physically, anatomically, and psychologically.
Transgender merely describes the relatively circuitous path I took to reach this point in my life. It is how I got here, not who I am.
There are folks who may disagree with this. There are folks who see me as less than, a being less worthy because I exist, because I took action to make myself whole. So be it. But, when they act on their misguided beliefs to cause harm, I choose to act as well, to protect myself, those I love, and all who are erroneously seen as less worthy because they choose to live.
Hi Michelle, 12 April 2019
Beautifully stated; You do have a wonderful way with language, written and spoken. God Bless and Thank You!
Best Always, Love
Christine
Quote from: Michelle_P on April 12, 2019, 10:06:20 AM
I am a woman. I am a woman physically, anatomically, and psychologically.
Transgender merely describes the relatively circuitous path I took to reach this point in my life. It is how I got here, not who I am.
I really like that!
Transgender should always be an adjective, never a noun.
This comment may adversely affect some people. It is not my intention to make anyone uncomfortable, If you are easily offended please go no further.
As I wandered through the casino's on the Strip, I held my head high, shoulders back and walked with dignity. I passed thousands of people over five days. It was scary at first as I have only gone out in public in trans friendly areas like Capital Hill of Seattle or after meeting, dinners in Tacoma. As I walked I grew more and more confident that while I didn't pass literally I did pass as a well dressed, well made up person that represented the opposite gender with love and respect. People can put labels, I choose Hybrid to describe myself. Not really totally male or totally female. My reasoning is that I do not have the necessary equipment. Boobs do not make you a woman. The other factor as my kids reminded me. "You will always be our Dad." But the idea that my brain has finally been reunited with my early life experience, makes me happy I took this path when it was offered. The results have been far greater than I ever imagined. I wish I could go the rest of the way but I am on a time limitation as we don't live forever. Surgeries are out of the question. Twenty - fifty years ago I absolutely would have gone all the way with surgeries. Water under the bridge it ain't going to happen. "If you can't be with the one you love." "Love the love your with." I love being me these days. Not perfect but high functioning.
Quote from: DawnOday on April 12, 2019, 12:01:12 PM
This comment may adversely affect some people. It is not my intention to make anyone uncomfortable, If you are easily offended please go no further.
As I wandered through the casino's on the Strip, I held my head high, shoulders back and walked with dignity. I passed thousands of people over five days. It was scary at first as I have only gone out in public in trans friendly areas like Capital Hill of Seattle or after meeting, dinners in Tacoma. As I walked I grew more and more confident that while I didn't pass literally I did pass as a well dressed, well made up person that represented the opposite gender with love and respect. People can put labels, I choose Hybrid to describe myself. Not really totally male or totally female. My reasoning is that I do not have the necessary equipment. Boobs do not make you a woman. The other factor as my kids reminded me. "You will always be our Dad." But the idea that my brain has finally been reunited with my early life experience, makes me happy I took this path when it was offered. The results have been far greater than I ever imagined. I wish I could go the rest of the way but I am on a time limitation as we don't live forever. Surgeries are out of the question. Twenty - fifty years ago I absolutely would have gone all the way with surgeries. Water under the bridge it ain't going to happen. "If you can't be with the one you love." "Love the love your with." I love being me these days. Not perfect but high functioning.
Perfection is a worthy goal but not often achieved. I can't imagine what anyone would find offensive about your post. It sounds like you've found what works for you, and that's a glorious thing! Anyone who isn't happy for you and your happiness isn't worth listening to. Congratulations!
Quote from: steph2.0 on April 12, 2019, 07:13:25 AM
Wow, Zirconia, thank you. When I first saw your post, I thought, "There's no way I'm going to read all that!" Then I started reading, and couldn't stop. I wish I'd written it.
You perfectly describe the way I feel. My wish to live what remains of my life without a T prefix is valid, and in no way invalidates anyone else's point of view.
Steph,
Thank you. I'm glad that someone liked/agreed with my feelings. It's a relief, and really means much to me.
It takes forever for me to collect my thoughts, and I always feel like I'm treading on eggs when I try to post them....
（╹◡╹）
Quote from: zirconia on April 12, 2019, 12:24:09 PM
Steph,
Thank you. I'm glad that someone liked my thoughts and feelings. It's a relief.
I always feel like I'm treading on eggs when I try to write about something here that really matters to me.
I understand that! I get nervous when I post my opinions too. While in this case I agree with you on your post, that's not necessary for all of us to show respect to each other. I like to think we're all friends here, despite varying points of view. In the worst case, we have the TOS to fall back on, if things get disrespectful. So please don't censor yourself. All points of view are valid here.
Quote from: zirconia on April 12, 2019, 12:24:09 PM
Steph,
Thank you. I'm glad that someone liked/agreed with my feelings. It's a relief, and really means much to me.
It takes forever for me to collect my thoughts, and I always feel like I'm treading on eggs when I try to post them....
（╹◡╹）
I liked your contribution a lot. You mostly expressed my feelings, too!
You are not alone with those!
Hugs
Linde
Quote from: Michelle_P on April 12, 2019, 10:06:20 AM
Transgender merely describes the relatively circuitous path I took to reach this point in my life. It is how I got here, not who I am.
This! It's exactly as I think. Transgender is a journey for me. When I'm coming home, I am home with myself.
Tony
Don't worry about giving opinions. You know the bon mot. A-holes and opinions everyone has them. You have as much authority to give yours as anybody else. And don't worry if your opinion is not accepted by the masses. It's called communication, an exchange of ideas. If everyone were afraid forums would not exist.
Passing is important to me because I want my life to go uninterrupted. When I broadcast a signal that says, "hey I'm female!" I want that to message to be as clean and clear as possible so it doesn't muck with the rest of the "story." If that means wearing makeup or putting in some extra effort to bring my voice within a female range then that's what I'm going to do. I have so much more to offer people than my gender issues and I'll play along with the beauty standards game to make sure they don't dominate my every interaction. But that being said, I ultimately do these things because I want to (they're fun or I find value in participation) not because of some outside pressure that I must kowtow to.
I have no problem discussing my being transgender or my transition with anyone. My life is an open book from which I hope others can learn and be eased by but I won't define myself by my gender identity.
Note to OP:
Your logic is unassailable.
I think it is an amazing topic that you have clearly thought a lot about. In some ways I really agree. I mean, transition and passing won't cure me of body image problems, will it?
For me, what is most important, is that it is what I want. I want to look a certain way, and like a ciswoman might go and get her nose done, or wear a wig, I plan on doing the same. In my past life I would have called this vanity, but now, it's just what I want. I've learned the hard way that no one but me can advocate for that and reach for it.
I also don't want my happiness to be contingent on passing or being pretty. There is plenty of work to do on all levels :D
I've thought similarly too. I spent the better part of the past 10 years trying to pass as a man in my ftm transition, and into the 5th year of it, I finally reached that goal. And I passed well for 4 years... until I came to the realisation that I had been traveling life on the wrong train, and made the decision to detransition.
After 9 years of having lived as a man, I did not expect how hard it would be to start living as a woman again. It hit me hard, and felt like a mountain smacked me in the face. Cause I had put in so much effort, and during so many years... just to regret it? It felt like the cruelest fate, and hardest lesson I've ever had to learn. I had even voice trained additionally to taking T so that I could get my voice as close to "cis male sounding" as possible, I changed my mannerisms, learned how to trim my beard, spent years changing the way I walk and finding the best ways of dressing masculine to hide wide hips. But yes, I had been performing an act without even knowing it. Thought I was just alleviating dysphoria. But the solution I had reached for created more problems for me than it alleviated.
But ultimately my detransition is for me more about connecting with bio sex and really just loving being a woman, than it is about my looks or what I do medically to regain what I've lost. Just going off T did a tremenduous difference in finding back to my stuffed away, inner womanhood. It is much more psychological than it is physical.
Medically, the only thing I want to get from now on is new boobs, which won't help with my passing at all. I want them for my own personal comfort, in private, and possibly with a girlfriend, but I don't want them for passing. And I don't even care what they'll look like.
But I'm not here to promote for detransition, cause it kinda sucks anyhow, so I don't recommend it. It devastated and terrified me, so in my early detransition I again felt like "now I have to instead try to pass a female again!" while I just kept seeing a man in the mirror. A man with female genitals and wide hips, but still. I think I look male in the face unless I cake on makeup, thanks to T and my genetics that just made my face naturally androgynous. And my lack of boobs makes clothing difficult, either which way.
I've now been detransing for 9 months and I don't try to pass anymore. It was when I reached the point of nearly throwing my makeup and shaving tools against a wall and screaming at them, but still couldn't figure out if I wanted to keep or remove my facial hair, that I needed to find a better approach. I stopped covering my beard shadow, and on some days I don't even shave my face. I don't hide my hairline anymore, and I don't change the way my voice now "naturally" sounds since having been on T, which is for the past 8 years (long enough for it to feel natural to me, but of course is actually medically modified).
I know I don't look like a woman (except from in pics, for whatever reason), but I still am one. I know I don't pass, although most people avoid gendering me at all, so I rarely get referred to with any or either pronouns. I notice by how they act around me and more subtle things than pronouns. I notice by how they say my very common female name slowly and awkwardly. I notice by how they call me a woman in a noticably forced way. I notice by how other women distance themselves from me like they never used to before my transition, and by how men still expect me to somehow relate to their ways of thinking. I live in a safe area so I can do this without fearing for my well-being. I often think I actually look a little like as if I was a trans woman in early transition, and that there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
A few times back in my transition, I thought to myself if I would have been happier if I had been born male, but the damn thought that always came up in my head as a reply to that was that I would probably have been a trans woman then. Finally I understand why I kept getting that thought. I didn't mean it literally. It was a metaphor for my detransition, that I at heart always felt like a woman, even when I hated it the most.
I love my beard, and I can't leave my bed without my boobs. Passing for me now, is nothing but a utopian pipe dream, which could only happen in a society in which I'd be perceived as female regardless of my looks and voice. But it's also become far less important to me. Just knowing who/what I am myself, having my style, and embracing my traits that I like about my body, both the female and the male ones, and living my life to the fullest and trying my best to not be hindered by my body, is what matters the most to me.
Then people can think I'm a man if that's what they see. It's not an insult, it's not an actually bad thing to be male, even though I too have come to understand just how much lesser people think of me when they mistake me for a trans woman. It doesn't say anything about my actual value, as a person or as a woman. And I say all of that as a cis woman who is non-passing, more or less by choice.
Hi Paige just read your post , you've articulated that well ....I in fact don't try and pass and I doubt I would if I tried
I'm happy to be seen as trans to be see as a third sex and that's fine with me,so far it's mostly been a good experience I haven't experienced any significant discrimination and I've found quite a bit of acceptance for who I am ....perhaps I'm lucky but I'm proud to be who I am and have no back off on it to placate others......the more we stand up and be counted the more acceptance..perhaps I'm wrong .....I don't know
There are passable trans women in the camp I'm in they stay away from me ....thoughI have had tacit acknowledgement from one .....😊
The other keep their distance which is fair enough
I really wish I could get past the point of not concerning myself with what others think of me. Beyond that, I wish I could just be happy with myself, physically, and mentally. Passing would get me through with not concerning myself as much with what others think of me, but then, from my understanding women are constantly judged regardless, so that would just provide a host of other problems.
I mean, even if I did pass, I would still be worrying about how others perceive me, that is just a given for someone like me. I hate that feeling too, as though everyone is always judging me. I sometimes wonder if being born male, may have been a blessing in this way. If I want to go out in worn out shorts with holes in them, a t-shirt with a stain, unshaven, I am not going to attract nearly as much attention.
If I could just accept myself, to love myself, that would go so much further than passing. I just have never been able to get past that point, and it is incredibly frustrating. I wish I could turn off that portion of my mind, to go through life without having a concern in the world when it comes to others, yet no matter how deeply I think of it, no matter how much I try, I always find myself being impacted by others when it comes to my own sense of self esteem.
Internalized transphobia toward myself, toxic "masculinity", probably even sexism, and so many other things form a formidable wall around me. Passing is not my problem, I'm my problem, I wish I could just get past my own self. It is strange, because I have never been one to try to prove myself to others. I did not try to convince others that I am some alpha male, I've found my differences from men to be a good thing and would never want to give them up, yet I am still plagued with so many of these problems.
Passing should not be important, what is important is me to just sort through my own problems. If I could do that, I wouldn't care at all about passing, or anything when it concerns with what others think. I've been living with this feeling of wanting to be a woman for so long, that it is mind blowing, I can't make sense of it. It really shouldn't be this important to me. I have to question, if I could just be happy with myself, would gender even matter in the first place?
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Okay, enough of my scattered thoughts, and climbing through rabbit holes. The original post was interesting, I don't find myself disagreeing with.
I try to pass (or blend, as I normally prefer to call it) as much as I can, and I think I manage it most of the time (I suppose one can never be sure, maybe I've just never met a transphobic person as then I'd surely know). Anyway, I've been on vacation in Orlando the last two weeks with my daughter and at one of the dinners Snow White on leaving our table said "bye bye Prince". Now, I don't blame her, she probably cringed when she realised that she'd misgendered me, and that's fine, but something about me clearly made her realise I was trans and therefore make the mistake. And I was devastated. I still am. But it did get me wondering why.
Part of it, undoubtedly, is that I hate that I've put my 6 year old through this, and it'd be a lot smoother for her if I blended consistently. My own personal position is that I'd like to blend for her, and my family. I know my mother was hugely relieved when she saw me for the first time and that I "didn't look bad".
Part of it is not necessarily that I want to look Cis, but I don't want to look or be perceived as trans. Many people are happy to wear that badge and wear it with pride, and well done to them. I'm actually jealous of that viewpoint. But that's not me. In every facet of life I want to blend in and not put my head above the parapet. I've been asked a couple of time to go on TV or on BBC Radio 4 and I've rejected each time. I just want to a live a quiet little happy no fuss life.
Em x
Amen, Emma!
I just want to be myself.