Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So I'm having a hard time connecting with other trans women...and I think it's because a lot of trans women, particularly those in the couple of support groups I have been do, enjoy being part of the "alternative" lifestyle. And I'm happy for them! Go for it!

But that's just not my own personality. I am a bit more of a traditionalist and prefer being really boring and blending in. And so when I meet other trans folks who more prefer an alternative lifestyle, we really don't have anything in common besides being trans. It's really like we're from two different worlds.

I actually bond well with straight women who share my interests and personality tendencies, but since I haven't physically transitioned, it's too early to say whether I'll be accepted by them after I go full-time. (I sure hope so!). I really haven't found a trans women that I can connect with, which has been a bummer.

Anyone else feel the same? That you don't click with most of the other trans women you meet in real life?

Quote from: sarahc on April 20, 2019, 01:21:04 PM
I actually bond well with straight women who share my interests and personality tendencies, but since I haven't physically transitioned, it's too early to say whether I'll be accepted by them after I go full-time. (I sure hope so!). I really haven't found a trans women that I can connect with, which has been a bummer.

If you get along well with CIS women now, you'll probably gte along just fine with them afterwards. The relationship will change as they start accepting you as a women though.

I'm not friends with any TG women, not that I don't want to be, but they just aren't in my circles.

I get on with most people and since I don't care about blending in (though I can do so easily) it makes no difference to me. I just like people who are compatible. :) That being said, while I am active in promoting trans rights etc I wouldn't go around waving a trans flag every day...

I understand, actually.  I loathe sticking out in a crowd, and if I could just blend in and have no one notice me, I'd be incredibly happy.  This might be a bit of "the grass is greener" for me because I have about zero chance of that happening when I transition.  I'm 6'5" and most people find me startlingly tall as a man.  As a woman?  I can't even imagine, yet.  If cis ladies enjoy your company now, they'll probably still enjoy your company during and after your transition.  Build solid friendships now and you'll have less hump to get over later.

I understand this completely.  I have little in common with most other trans women I know, simply because they live in a different world than I do. 

I socialize far better with cis women in my field, and since coming fully out a little over a year ago I've acquired a slew of besties, just about all of whom work in my field or related fields.  We understand each other because we live in the same world.

Great topic, and like others here have already said.. just have no connection with other trans women at all.
Not necessarily due to their 'alternative' lifestyle but found that most tend to follow rather than be their
individual self, and that holds no interest for me. x 

Interesting topic, I get along with most people, however being trans is not the basis for a relationship or friendship IMHO. It can be a catalyst to bring people together to let's say for a "support meeting" or similar, but beyond that it takes other topics or areas of interest.

Having said that I have created friendships with other women that "happened to be trans" that share common interests with me, such as hiking, biking, or music.

So taking that idea here to the forums, I like to communicate with others in "hobby" or special interest topics here. I like to create friendships based on other common interests, and if they happen to be trans, that's great.

Trans is simply a slice of humanity, as diverse as ever...

Cynthia

Quote from: CynthiaAnn on April 21, 2019, 07:28:55 AMbeing trans is not the basis for a relationship or friendship IMHO. It can be a catalyst to bring people together to let's say for a "support meeting" or similar, but beyond that it takes other topics or areas of interest.

I agree with this.  I do not have a lot in common with the other trans folks in the support group.  They live in a different world than I do.  There is a group of us that live within reasonable driving distance of each other that get together from time to time to socialize, but all we have in common is being ourselves out in public.

I have more in common with many cis women than with trans women.  Being trans is only one part of who I am.  Obviously, as long as I am transitioning, it is a huge part of my self-image, but that is not enough by itself to be a basis for friendship.  I have other "real world" interests, and these are my main sources of interest and interaction.

I am curious to what you mean by an 'alternative' lifestyle. I only have a couple of Transgender friends and although we have almost a 20 year age gap, their situation is very similar to mine, I could only dream of being young and becoming who I am when I could have enjoyed my 20's as a woman. Other than the fact they like to go out on the weekends to some of the local LGBTQ clubs, they are pretty much like me... they live pretty normal and just want to blend into the background.  Like the other posts, I defiantly click with other Cis women but considering .3% of the population is Trans I don't really have that many Trans friends.

I agree with Karyn. I have always felt better in women's company than men's. I am 14 months HRT and will be publicly transitioning in Summer. I believe that I will continue to enjoy women's company and that if or after they accept me as a woman, the friendship would be enhanced.

As a separate matter, I know a few transitioning transwomen and friendships may materialise with some of them but if so, that they are trans is only one factor and not a deciding factor. Friendships develop due to circumstances and common interests and being trans is just one example of so many potential common interests.

Hugs

Pamela

Quote from: KristySimsx on April 21, 2019, 08:33:02 AM
I am curious to what you mean by an 'alternative' lifestyle....

Ditto. The O/P's post comes across as.... intolerance, and a trans person who doesn't like other trans people often indicates a lack of self acceptance, and/or internalised transphobia. Also, if by alternative you mean gay or lesbian sex, you've chosen a poor site to express disdain for it. We welcome all here.

Many years ago (19ish IIRC) I was on a Post-op only mailing list that had over 100 members... and for awhile it was a very good resource... until it self destructed over lifestyle issues. IIRC it was not primarily about stealth or out (there were some at both extremes there) but problems over other "lifestyle" issues...

Being TS and even being post-op does not make us all the same...

One can be "conservative"or traditional in some ways but be liberal politically as well as the other way around or any combination...While we have some experiences in common, who we are can be as different as between any two people.

I fully understand wanting to live a "normal" life and been seen and treated as any other woman...

While i may be mistaken, I would be surprised if that is not what the majority of us wanted started out (i know it was for me)... But not all of us can get there no matter how much we want it, and for some it ultimately does not fit with how they se themselves and who they are (being TS means our socialization and development is different from those not TS and can shape who some become and how they see themselves)

If things turn out that one can blend in well enough it means potentially one has a very different life than one who can't after.

For myself I very much wanted to be a normal woman and always did... but for number of reasons (the physical not being the least of which) I could not get there. I am not and never will be happy about that...

In my early years I met a lot of people in the community ... but over time I drifted apart from them and for many years my only real contact has been on-line

I could relate emotionally to those that wanted to blend in, but those that could lives became too different... and I could not relate emotionally to those who lives centered around being TS... So I drifted way from the 3D community.

I want to be clear there were could people that I liked and respected in at both ends ... but our lives were just too dissimilar for the long term.

- karen

Quote from: Devlyn on April 21, 2019, 08:41:48 AM
Ditto. The O/P's post comes across as.... intolerance, and a trans person who doesn't like other trans people often indicates a lack of self acceptance, and/or internalised transphobia.

It can go both ways...

It seem to me some might see your post as intolerant of those that who they are leads them to want to assimilate as much as possible.

Who someone is comfortable with, is who they are comfortable with. How they want to live their lives is how they want live THEIR lives... and that goes for those who want live in the community and those that don't... both are equally valid.

- Karen

Quote from: Devlyn on April 21, 2019, 08:41:48 AM
Ditto. The O/P's post comes across as.... intolerance, and a trans person who doesn't like other trans people often indicates a lack of self acceptance, and/or internalised transphobia. Also, if by alternative you mean gay or lesbian sex, you've chosen a poor site to express disdain for it. We welcome all here.

I detect no disdain in the OP's post for anybody. I do however detect some disdain, judgement and a keenness to find something in it offensive in yours.

There are many non-binary people who I do not get along with. I do not believe that it is because they are non-binary, but we just do not have things in common with each other.

I will say that with the people who I've met they expect things of me that I do not do. Be girly is an example of something that I really am not as per their opinion. I like my boots, sneakers, jeans, and t-shirts. I do not do traditional female hair, nails, or dress.

I am me and if people do not like me for me then I move on.

Well I still am not exactly sure what you mean by 'alternative' lifestyle... my mind is all over the place. Perhaps you just haven't met anyone that simply shares your interests and/or support. I don't think I would give up on not making Transgender friends... at the end of the day people are people... some you click with and others you don't. For me I just want to blend in with the world and it not be about my gender whatsoever. 

Hi, I am alive in part to the love, acceptance and understanding from community. There were quite a few woman that did not make it and I think of them at times.

I drifted from community as my transition progressed and I blended better. Maybe it was because I no longer feel different. I have seen every lifestyle there is and shared friendship will everyone that would be my friend. I have had girls cry when they shared with me their hardships. I think we love those that love us back. Yet I drifted apart.

It doesn't seem uncommon. People want different things out of transition, it may not always be possible to find a group that fits our own path. It doesn't need to be a bad thing, for me it was so much better when I gave up on being part of the community and started to just be one of the girls. It is much more comfortable. The only sucky part is the in between. When you haven't yet developed the girl feel that it takes to fit into the group, guy groups are not really working for you or them and you don't fit into the community. It does get better, like the rest of transition it usually takes some time. Those groups are really good for some and I think they are great to give people a place they can be themselves. If they aren't for some, well after being out with the girls a few times you will probably never miss those events or groups.

Personally, I love going to Pride. I don't have to belong, just take along a friend that can enjoy it as much as I do. To be honest I love to go to a drag show occasionally and Pride is the biggest around here. I also have been to a few lgbt clubs now and they were fantastic though I have had people say that other clubs were nowhere near as good. Guys aren't hitting on me witch is great and my boyfriend doesn't give me the twenty questions when I get home. Girls are not nearly as bad when it comes to trying to pick you up, not even the more persistent ones. It is so funny having a tiny girl grab my hand and try to coax me onto the dance floor and me a half a foot taller am the girly one! It is almost a shame sometimes about some of the men though, I have never seen a larger collection of gorgeous men in my life. Dance with your friends and maybe some other girls, certainly if you are into girls, I know some of my friends have gone home with other women.

The point is, if it feels helpful or comfortable having those groups can be really good, if not then there are many other options. You don't have to part of anything lgbt at all if you don't want to, there is nothing wrong with that. If you get along with cis women now you will probably get along just as well after.

While we all wait for @sarahc to elaborate on what she meant....

I kind of understand what she means (If I understand her right, lol).  When I first realized I was gender dysphoric, I started casting about, mostly online, for others like me or friends.  Because I was also kinda in the "lifestyle" of swinging and playing, basically sexually confused and venting my male libido, this meant clubs and personals sites,  and a lot of the trans folk that you find there are those that are what I'll call "fetishists", either people wayyyyy down the rabbit-hole of sexual experience, or actually men (mentally) who cross dress for the sexual taboo.  Along with quite a few that were just plain nuts to put it bluntly.  All the friendships and relationships I had with other, notionally "trans" people were superficial and centered around sexual gratification.

When HRT started its magic of giving me a more female sex drive and lower... impulsivity(?) this really lost any appeal to me, and I completely dropped out of "the scene".  I'm now married and all of our friends are just as married and boring as me.  lol. The few trans people I still keep in touch with are all online and we only keep sporadic contact.

For me, living in a rural area gives me the blessing of not having to deal with people that enjoy sticking out like a sore thumb. Sure, most folk have their quirks, but much of the flamboyancy i have seen in San Francisco is pleasantly absent.

I maybe kind of get where the topic creator is coming from... but I'm just taking my own interpretation, because it is very vague.

It's hard to describe. Like, I'm not at all conservative politically (like, not even remotely), but I would say that in other ways I am very conservative. I don't drink, I don't do drugs, I don't go to bars. In fact, the idea of going to a bar repulses me. I don't even particularly like being around people who are drinking or doing drugs. It makes me feel uncomfortable.

Growing up, I had this association that's what trans people do. I have a feeling it came from my mom, because I remember one time her asking me after I came out "So are you going to go to bars now?" I'm like "No!" and had no idea where that came from, because I've never been like that, why would that change? But it seems like I've long had that notion in my head that's what trans people are like, too. =/

Now, there's nothing wrong with anyone doing those things, it just isn't me, so I won't do it. It's a ridiculous notion anyway, there is nothing inherently about being trans that means you have to do those things. I just certainly grew up with that notion and it's been a hard one to break, even knowing that I'm not like that, and knowing other trans people that are a lot like me.

For me, being trans altogether has always been something I wished to hide, even though I don't think trans people in general should have to. It's just like, me, I would really like to just be a cis woman. I just want to exist in the same circles and environments I always have, just being me. Without any splash, without any fanfare. Without any of the transphobia, for sure. During my teenage years I had this strong sense of feeling like I had been "robbed" of that, and you know, I guess I haven't completely grown out of that. I'm just realizing, transition has to happen one way or another.

Well, that was a big mess of a post.  :laugh:

I am pretty much like Virelai, I jut don't have parents around anymore to question me.  I never was really interested in bars, and I don't think that this would ever change.  I have yet to see a gay/lesbian club from the inside, actually, I don't even know where these kind of establishments are!
And like she, I am rather on the left side of the political spectrum, Reagan would have included me in his bleeding heart liberal tree huggers, and I am a feminist.  But that does not make me to be alternative.  I feel pretty comfy with my cis girl friends, and just want to blend in!

Quote from: Virelai on April 23, 2019, 08:32:26 AMLike, I'm not at all conservative politically (like, not even remotely) . . . Well, that was a big mess of a post.  :laugh:

Great sentiment/post @Virelai your certainly not alone! I agree with everything you expressed (don't drink, go to bars/parties) EXCEPT very first statement (above) . . . if I hold it against you decorum dictates will keep own views to self!

Can I at least chalk your political attitudes up to "youth"? I'm not a "feminist" either would never advocate open war on "the entire other half of the world population"! lol You can call me a "FERT"!

The only thing I OBJECT to in this thread is the title itself: "Don't connect with . . . " reads like an IMPERITIVE, something I MUST do (while I do know that was not OP's intent).

Maybe you're reading into their bonding too much?

I don't know...  I remember a friend from a transgender group I went to when I lived in a larger metro that called me up asking me why the other girls don't want to do things with her.  I told her I do not do anything with anyone from the group other than her.  I also told her that only two others actually do things together outside of group.  I told her the only time we do things together is after group and you don't normally go because you have other things you need to do.

Some of these girls had been going to group for years and had been in the same stage of transition so they have formed a comfortable friendship at group that showed.  That's all it was though.

I don't know your group dynamics.  I just know that I can say that maybe you're not missing out on friendships like you think.

Just be yourself and take advantage of group by talking about what you want to talk about when it is your turn.  Offer others your support.

Quote from: KristySimsx on April 21, 2019, 08:33:02 AM
I am curious to what you mean by an 'alternative' lifestyle.

You beat me to it.  What's weird is that there were 7 responses to the OP before this question was even raised!!!!!!!
Am I missing something?  Is there some secret code out there?  What exactly does "Alternative Lifestyle" even mean?

Quote from: Janes Groove on April 23, 2019, 11:18:52 AM
You beat me to it.  What's weird is that there were 7 responses to the OP before this question was even raised!!!!!!!
Am I missing something?  Is there some secret code out there?  What exactly does "Alternative Lifestyle" even mean?

That is a total 90's phrase to me.  I guess it's a relative term for everyone.

Quote from: Janes Groove on April 23, 2019, 11:18:52 AM
Am I missing something?  Is there some secret code out there?  What exactly does "Alternative Lifestyle" even mean?

LOL I know right!?  I guess we will all remain in a mysterious fog until the OP has come back to the thread :)

Some say that it refers to people who don't act exactly the same as "normal" people do.


I believe that it's something you say before you figure out just how weird "normal" people actually are.

 :) Have to admit it is a head scratcher.

Kink? Maybe, but of the two friends of mine that are into that only one is trans. Not for me either way, yikes! :o

Bars? I don't personally know anyone that goes to bars regularly other than the girl that does my nails. She is a wild child and would probably be a blast to go out with once, I haven't been brave enough for that yet. My small group of girlfriends, all cis, like to go dancing once a month, it is so much fun. None of us drink much when we are dancing, we usually do that when we get together to play cards or just lounging on my one friend's deck some evenings. Or Canal Days on the Chesapeake Canal, oh my god that is so much fun! The docks are are full and usually there are two extra lines of boats tied together, hang out with your friends or go from boat to boat catching up with friends you haven't seen since last year. Okay, getting away from the point. Many people regularly go to bars or party, I don't really think of it as a trans thing, and not a lifestyle for me. I really enjoy the couple of groups of friends that I have though whatever we are doing, but they are mostly family oriented.

Most of the comments when coming out were people assuming trans meant promiscuous. How the two relate I am not exactly sure, but many people asked if I was going to start to sleep around. I thought I would a little, really for not being at all prudish I was practically a 45 year old virgin, maybe I was even hoping for it, but it never happened. Of course I am not a virgin anymore either :D but I have only had one partner and only made out with a couple of guys before him. Maybe "alternative" lifestyle could could be promiscuity?

Just speculation.

Quote from: Kylo on April 21, 2019, 12:33:50 PM
I detect no disdain in the OP's post for anybody. I do however detect some disdain, judgement and a keenness to find something in it offensive in yours.

Agreed.

Anyways, to answer the OP, I think it's very common for a lot of us to feel like we don't have anything in common with other trans people...just because, as others have said, being trans isn't enough to build a close relationship. In my case, I have several trans friends but none of them is as close to me as my cis friends are. We just don't have that much in common besides being trans.

Quote from: Colleen_definitely on April 23, 2019, 12:54:34 PM
Some say that it refers to people who don't act exactly the same as "normal" people do.
I believe that it's something you say before you figure out just how weird "normal" people actually are.

Like I said to my children many times,  there is no such thing as normal.  It only exists in text books.

I've always understood the term "alternative lifestyle" to be a roundabout way of saying "queer." In context I would guess it generalizes to non-traditional relationship structures and means of sexual expression (same-sex relationships, polyamory, BDSM, non-binary folks, etc).

Trans folks are a small minority that draws from a wide splash of the social spectrum- lots of diversity of opinions, etc. So you may find some you connect to, but since there are a lot more cis people out there, you've got better chances at finding some of those you get along with.

Personally i seem to be unable to connect to anyone other than my wife- people are generally civil and willing to transact business with me as needed, but can't wait to be rid of me. Never been able to figure out why.  So as long as that's not the case for you, I wouldn't stress it too much.

Quote from: KristySimsx on April 21, 2019, 08:33:02 AM
I am curious to what you mean by an 'alternative' lifestyle.

Remember Snagglepus? "Heavens to Murgatroyd!" "Exit stage right . . " (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcowetasolar.net%2Fimages%2Fmoresmilies%2Fbolt.gif&hash=127099e5a378986fd9d8a574b332b20916d368a0)

Not speaking directly to the "alternative lifestyle" point (whatever that means),  I generally don't have much in common with the members of the T-community I've met at our social functions - other than being trans. That's not much to build a friendship on. We get together and are generally glad to see each other and catch up on our progress, but then go our separate ways. I've found as I get further through transition, I have less desire to go to the meetups.

That said, at one of those social functions in October 2017 I met a very special person with whom I have nearly everything in common. Any differences just bring wonderful spice to the relationship. At a later meetup, one of our acquaintances asked us when we were going to get married. I guess it's a bit obvious how we feel about each other, and things such as spending the rest of our lives together is a common point of happy conversation.

It's been a while, but we're actually going together to a meetup tonight just to say hi.


Stephanie

Thank you Stephanie for injecting some positive vibes into this thread. I am happy to read of your friendship.  :)

As for the unfortunate words in a topic title, perhaps it's best to simply move on, eeek

Cynthia -

Quote from: Chloe on April 23, 2019, 09:51:09 AM
Great sentiment/post @Virelai your certainly not alone! I agree with everything you expressed (don't drink, go to bars/parties) EXCEPT very first statement (above) . . . if I hold it against you decorum dictates will keep own views to self!

Can I at least chalk your political attitudes up to "youth"? I'm not a "feminist" either would never advocate open war on "the entire other half of the world population"! lol You can call me a "FERT"!

Au contraire! I've only become more liberal and progressive as the years have passed by, and I was raised in a Democrat/more liberal (not as liberal as some... Otherwise, I'd have probably transitioned back in my teens) family and have never even remotely called myself a conservative, so that should say a lot. There will especially be no consideration from me when the conservatives are like they are now where I live (the US).

My "conservative" lifestyle is not even something I'd even attach to conservative politics, as many conservatives I know/know don't live like that at all. Perhaps bringing up my aversion to political conservatism at all in relation to it was a mistake of mine altogether. They're unrelated.

Transgender people are as diverse in personality and interests as cisgender people.  Relating on a personal level to members of both groups can be challenging.  I don't know what the OP meant by "alternative lifestyle", but for many under the transgender umbrella, being trans IS an alternative lifestyle.  As someone who began her transition six years ago, I've passed through different phases of living and relating to the world around me.  I will always be grateful to my former trans friends and acquaintances for their understanding and support along my transition path.  But as I evolved along that path things understandably change.  The transgender people I still have close contact with today are a small subset of those 3, 4, and 5 years ago.

I thought that alternative is the different group of people not aligned with the defined normal in society.

To me , in this context, alternative lifestyle would mean primarily socializing and building one's life around  the T* community... and if one is straight post transition, that would apply to primarily socializing and building one's life around the LGBTQ community as a whole rather than straight society.

Nothing wrong with either, but what feels comfortable and is a good fit for any person depends on who one is and what comes naturally.

- Karen

To be honest,  I never really felt "alternative". I'm just me ;D

That being said, I would love to find another Trans person to connect with. Unfortunately,  I'm extremely shy, live in a deep red state. I'm leery of transitioning because of saftey reasons. I'm stuck here because I need to care for my elderly parents and to be honest that's a greater priority to me.

I have a boyfriend that I love and he understands me, but he doesn't totally "get it". I dont fault him for that, but it would be nice to have a trans sister or brother to lean on, shopping, that sort of thing.

Quote from: sarahc on April 20, 2019, 01:21:04 PM


Anyone else feel the same? That you don't click with most of the other trans women you meet in real life?

My advice is to get used to being the unicorn in the crowd because that's how you are going to end up. You will leave the crutches behind and develop some wonderful female friends and you will completely forget about this question. Cultivate the future that's ahead of you not the one you are leaving behind.

My mom would always say I'm "an old man stuck in a young man's body".

She had the man part wrong 😂

But yeah, I sometimes feel really out of place in a lot of queer and trans spaces. Some parts of my personality and world view are very much those of a flag saluting Eagle Scout and trans woman. I'm 22, take myself to (an accepting) church Sundays, and well... don't really associate much with counterculture or adventurous styles and presentations. 

I prefer the middle of nowhere - seeing the Milky Way above my head and hearing bobcats serenade the woods. My closest friends have been a mix of queer and not queer straight laced but nerdy women and non-binary who like cats, and that's not changing. There is a super basic flair to me and I'm addicted to Starbucks. Oh well.

My views on social issues are rather left leaning, since unfortunately acknowledging and accepting trans folks is still considered a far left thing at times :/. We kinda exist no matter what they think. In other areas I have a bit of a strong centrist streak.

Anyways, I really resonated with your post.

Whoa! I'm the original poster, and I haven't been here for a few days and this topic blew up after being quiet for a few days after I posted.

First of all, my apologies to those who misunderstood me...I meant no disrespect in any of my initial comments. On the contrary, I'm a little bit envious of those who are willing to express their true selves outwardly.

And I think using the term "alternative" was unfair and not specific enough in the context of what the original post was referencing. Specifically, it was referring to a majority of people at a couple of trans support groups I attended. Most of them had either styling choices (hair, clothing, makeup) or body art / piercings that clearly said they they had no interest in necessarily conforming with what society thought was right and wrong. And they were proud of their identities, and it came through in how they spoke.

It's just that...that attitude isn't me. I'm trans, and while I'm politically liberal, I'm more of a conformist when it comes to trying to fit in and find my place in the world. And so when I try to speak to people who aren't as conformist as I am, we just don't relate. That's really all I was saying. And I was lamenting the fact that at least at the two support groups I've been to, most of the participants have been non-conformist in their approach to life and I was really looking for people who shared more aspects of my personality.

Again, apologies for all the misunderstandings!

Sarah

:police:

I have removed some posts from an ex-member. My apologies.

Cindy
Forum Admin

The mainstream is transphobic, so pushes trans people,  into the "alternative". So one should expect "alternative" by default.  Meeting people who live in non traditional ways is what makes life interesting. The most radically actvist, communist, anti conformist trans person and I can always find common ground in that we both want trans acceptance. 

I would love to have some trans friends. Unfortunately I don't know any trans people in RL. I'm not sure what you meant when you said you couldn't "connect " with some trans people. I don't relate to some trans people but that wouldn't stop me from being friends with them. I " connect" with all trans people. Even FtM people. We are ALL trans which I think connects us all.

I don't think you meant any offense but "alternative lifestyle " was an unfortunate use of words. That can mean a lot of different lifestyles. Even living off the grid is considered an alternative lifestyle. My boyfriend and I are into BDSM which is also considered an alternative lifestyle. So according to your post you wouldn't want me as a friend either.

Quote from: Julia1996 on April 29, 2019, 09:34:26 AM
I would love to have some trans friends. Unfortunately I don't know any trans people in RL. (...)

I don't think you meant any offense but "alternative lifestyle " was an unfortunate use of words. That can mean a lot of different lifestyles. Even living off the grid is considered an alternative lifestyle. My boyfriend and I are into BDSM which is also considered an alternative lifestyle. So according to your post you wouldn't want me as a friend either.

You have me. I will move there <3

On a more serious note, I agree the choice of words was poor. She probably meant the preconceived idea people have of how a trans person lives their life. But only she can clarify.

Quote from: Aurorasky on April 29, 2019, 10:09:49 AM
You have me. I will move there <3

On a more serious note, I agree the choice of words was poor. She probably meant the preconceived idea people have of how a trans person lives their life. But only she can clarify.

She did clarify, just a few posts up, and I thought she stated it very well. Here:  https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=245930.msg2247343#msg2247343 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=245930.msg2247343#msg2247343)

Everybody who has issues with my choices on how I want to live my life, considers me to be an alternative lifestyle.

However, I think that I am quite comfortable with myself right now. To be sure, I do have a few conservative leanings, such as the environment and fiscal matters, but I am very much a social progressive in that we all need to respect and take care of others as best we can.

For those of us who are into flamboyant clothing, make up and party behavior, good for you, but you can leave me alone if that is the only thing you do.

Quote from: sarahc on April 26, 2019, 05:30:41 PM
Whoa! I'm the original poster, and I haven't been here for a few days and this topic blew up after being quiet for a few days after I posted.

First of all, my apologies to those who misunderstood me...I meant no disrespect in any of my initial comments. On the contrary, I'm a little bit envious of those who are willing to express their true selves outwardly.

And I think using the term "alternative" was unfair and not specific enough in the context of what the original post was referencing. Specifically, it was referring to a majority of people at a couple of trans support groups I attended. Most of them had either styling choices (hair, clothing, makeup) or body art / piercings that clearly said they they had no interest in necessarily conforming with what society thought was right and wrong. And they were proud of their identities, and it came through in how they spoke.

It's just that...that attitude isn't me. I'm trans, and while I'm politically liberal, I'm more of a conformist when it comes to trying to fit in and find my place in the world. And so when I try to speak to people who aren't as conformist as I am, we just don't relate. That's really all I was saying. And I was lamenting the fact that at least at the two support groups I've been to, most of the participants have been non-conformist in their approach to life and I was really looking for people who shared more aspects of my personality.

Again, apologies for all the misunderstandings!

Sarah

Very well explained :)

My only ties that are left with the trans community are online. I love how I can give trans people who are still early in their journey advice but overall, I feel there is too much tension in the trans community for me to want to be around other trans people in day to day life. I just prefer living my life and not having my friendships,.... dominated by this 1 aspect of me. I consider myself a woman in the social-cultural sense. Only in the medical sense I feel it's mandatory to come out to doctors and such. But for the rest, I don't hide it but I don't flash it either.


In the early beginning of my transition, 4 years ago, I went to transgender meetings and I honestly felt so at unease there. Some hated me for being heterosexual, others hated me for passing. I honestly have never felt more judged than by other trans people. And in that moment I told myself to stay away from meetings. It caused me stress and anxiety.


Now I love connecting online with people who have been through the same I have gone through.
I don't see it differently from a woman who has had breast cancer, is now healed and still writes on breast cancer support forums.
I have been through transition but I don't feel it has to dominate my lifestyle nowadays.

Luv,
Debby

There are trans people who want to fit in with society, blend in and disappear as it were, and not stand out. Either to live as regularly as possible, or to go completely stealth and never be known to have been trans in the first place.

And there are people out there who want to deconstruct society itself, remove gender and gender roles, to create new genders and claim that science needs to add trans as a third category of biological sex, and god knows what else.

In my observation there is a distinct ideology associated with the latter example, who tend to assume that all trans people ought to follow their example, as well as ought to vote for progressive parties and espouse progressive ideas. Their mistake is assuming every trans person is the same, or that we inhabit a Borg-like hive mind. Most trans people I know a) do not want to be trans b) want the condition to go away which is why they transition and c) want a quiet life. That usually means identifying what you are closest to being and then being it. That usually means once done, you simply go back to living a hopefully improved version of your life.

On average most people are not excessively "alternative" - we can see this every time we look at people as they walk down the street or go about their business. But the "alternative" folks are more vocal and do stand out more by definition. They tend to be the activists, the group founders, and the people running trans organizations. It stands to reason you see less traditional leaning trans individuals as they are most likely to have completed their journey and dropped off the radar.     

Quote from: Kylo on May 06, 2019, 10:28:59 AM
There are trans people who want to fit in with society, blend in and disappear as it were, and not stand out. Either to live as regularly as possible, or to go completely stealth and never be known to have been trans in the first place.

And there are people out there who want to deconstruct society itself, remove gender and gender roles, to create new genders and claim that science needs to add trans as a third category of biological sex, and god knows what else.

In my observation there is a distinct ideology associated with the latter example, who tend to assume that all trans people ought to follow their example, as well as ought to vote for progressive parties and espouse progressive ideas. Their mistake is assuming every trans person is the same, or that we inhabit a Borg-like hive mind. Most trans people I know a) do not want to be trans b) want the condition to go away which is why they transition and c) want a quiet life. That usually means identifying what you are closest to being and then being it. That usually means once done, you simply go back to living a hopefully improved version of your life.

On average most people are not excessively "alternative" - we can see this every time we look at people as they walk down the street or go about their business. But the "alternative" folks are more vocal and do stand out more by definition. They tend to be the activists, the group founders, and the people running trans organizations. It stands to reason you see less traditional leaning trans individuals as they are most likely to have completed their journey and dropped off the radar.   

I relate to this a lot.
I prefer not to draw attention to myself when not needed. Being with other trans people means there is a higher probability that I will also be clocked if they get clocked.

I also don't feel obligated to vote for liberal parties because I'm trans. I am a conservative and don't feel that that clashes with my trans identity. That may be because I'm heterosexual though.


Luv,
Debby

Quote from: sarahc on April 26, 2019, 05:30:41 PM
Whoa! I'm the original poster, and I haven't been here for a few days and this topic blew up after being quiet for a few days after I posted.

First of all, my apologies to those who misunderstood me...I meant no disrespect in any of my initial comments. On the contrary, I'm a little bit envious of those who are willing to express their true selves outwardly.

And I think using the term "alternative" was unfair and not specific enough in the context of what the original post was referencing. Specifically, it was referring to a majority of people at a couple of trans support groups I attended. Most of them had either styling choices (hair, clothing, makeup) or body art / piercings that clearly said they they had no interest in necessarily conforming with what society thought was right and wrong. And they were proud of their identities, and it came through in how they spoke.

It's just that...that attitude isn't me. I'm trans, and while I'm politically liberal, I'm more of a conformist when it comes to trying to fit in and find my place in the world. And so when I try to speak to people who aren't as conformist as I am, we just don't relate. That's really all I was saying. And I was lamenting the fact that at least at the two support groups I've been to, most of the participants have been non-conformist in their approach to life and I was really looking for people who shared more aspects of my personality.

Again, apologies for all the misunderstandings!

Sarah

No worries, I had a gist of where you were coming from.  ;D

I respect those that can wear their heart on their sleeves, be the one on the parade float rocking teal hair and sparkles everywhere with a trans flag.
I prefer to be the one sitting at the pizza place in mom jeans and a blouse giving a thumbs up as she passes by.
We'd have one thing in common but regardless of that, would doubtfully suggest we could be best friends beyond acquaintances. And I don't think that's a bad thing as long as we all give each other mutual respect  :laugh:

Quote from: Aurorasky on April 29, 2019, 10:09:49 AM
You have me. I will move there <3

On a more serious note, I agree the choice of words was poor. She probably meant the preconceived idea people have of how a trans person lives their life. But only she can clarify.

Yes I do. I would love to meet you in person. I would also set you up with Tyler. He really needs a GF who isn't as dumb as a sack of hair, crazy or a total bitch.

I know exactly what OP means after clearing it up. I don't get to see many trans people, but I do volunteer in a LGBT organization. I know very few fellow trans guys and I mostly have other LGB friends rather than trans. In my university I am stealth, so... I have it all. But I'm not really proud to be trans and I always introduce myself as a plain gay man, the fact that I'm Russian is enough to make convo. I only tell other LGBT people I'm trans and to help them, because I happen to be rather passing, thankfully.

Quote from: graspthesanity on May 23, 2019, 07:05:59 AMBut I'm not really proud to be trans and I always introduce myself as a plain gay man, the fact that I'm Russian is enough to make convo. I only tell other LGBT people I'm trans and to help them, because I happen to be rather passing, thankfully.

"Proud" is not a word I use to describe my being trans. I'm simply addressing a medical issue. Others disagree, and a few have belittled me for not being "out and proud," but it's my life and I want to live it quietly. Sitting in the pizza place giving the thumbs up to those who choose to be open about it, as ZeFoxe wrote, describes me, though while I do wear my mom jeans occasionally, I generally prefer getting dressed up. [emoji6]


Stephanie

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 23, 2019, 08:25:30 AM
"Proud" is not a word I use to describe my being trans.

Yes, it is an odd word.  It is used in this context to signify "not ashamed", but the meaning goes too far in the opposite direction.  It is not like being trans is an accomplishment that I am proud of.  (Though transitioning is. ;) )

When I say I am "out and proud", I really mean that I am out and not ashamed.

Quote from: KathyLauren on May 23, 2019, 09:03:43 AM
Yes, it is an odd word.  It is used in this context to signify "not ashamed", but the meaning goes too far in the opposite direction.  It is not like being trans is an accomplishment that I am proud of.  (Though transitioning is. ;) )

When I say I am "out and proud", I really mean that I am out and not ashamed.

I like your explanation. Thank you!


- Stephanie

Quote from: KathyLauren on May 23, 2019, 09:03:43 AM
Yes, it is an odd word.  It is used in this context to signify "not ashamed", but the meaning goes too far in the opposite direction.  It is not like being trans is an accomplishment that I am proud of.  (Though transitioning is. ;) )

When I say I am "out and proud", I really mean that I am out and not ashamed.

I an buy into the not ashamed!  I am not ashamed to have two arms either.  I don't even know if I am proud that I did transition, it was just something naturally to do for me.

In my eyes I am a woman, and it is nobodies business to know, what I had to do, or how I arrived at this.

The pride thing comes I think out of the Gay Lib movement.
Back then, and I'm dating myself here, sissies and ->-bleeped-<-gots grew up in a world where being proud of ourselves was a foreign concept.  We were a generation that learned to own the words that were traditionally used to hurt us.  Feeling proud of ourselves was a way to strike back against a society that was very much different than it is today.  Back then only straights were allowed to feel proud of themselves. 

Quote from: Janes Groove on May 23, 2019, 11:16:42 PM
The pride thing comes I think out of the Gay Lib movement.
Back then, and I'm dating myself here, sissies and ->-bleeped-<-gots grew up in a world where being proud of ourselves was a foreign concept.  We were a generation that learned to own the words that were traditionally used to hurt us.  Feeling proud of ourselves was a way to strike back against a society that was very much different than it is today.  Back then only straights were allowed to feel proud of themselves.

Back than I was straight, but I cannot recall that my friends or I have ever been proud about that!  I think the gay people thought it was that way, we never did, and we did not understand why ones sexuality is something to be proud about or not to be proud about.  The  way homosexual people all of a sudden started to do this into your face stuff actually made most of us feeling uncomfortable with them, and caused us to dislike them a lot!

I am still against this into your face, and the last place I would want to be seen I participating in any of the gay pride events.  Sexuality is a private thing, and there is no reason to wave it i front of me like a banner, my sexual orientation is nobodies public business! 
It is the same that it is nobodies business that I am transgender, for the outside world I am a woman!

Quote from: Linde on May 24, 2019, 10:38:39 AM
Back than I was straight, but I cannot recall that my friends or I have ever been proud about that!  I think the gay people thought it was that way, we never did, and we did not understand why ones sexuality is something to be proud about or not to be proud about.  The  way homosexual people all of a sudden started to do this into your face stuff actually made most of us feeling uncomfortable with them, and caused us to dislike them a lot!

I am still against this into your face, and the last place I would want to be seen I participating in any of the gay pride events.  Sexuality is a private thing, and there is no reason to wave it i front of me like a banner, my sexual orientation is nobodies public business! 
It is the same that it is nobodies business that I am transgender, for the outside world I am a woman!

I wondered about the same things, Linde. For that reason I had no interest in going to any Pride events. I'm not a circus animal to be put on display. But after talking to friends who'd participated, I decided to go and see what it was about.

I learned something I hadn't expected. Sure, it was for us, but even more, it was for those who support us. I think the parade route was about two miles, and every inch of it was lined many people deep on both sides, all waving flags and cheering for us. The love and heartfelt support was overwhelmingly emotional for me, especially after being fed nothing but bad news by the media ever since I started transition. I admit I spent a large part of the parade with ocular leakage. They were smiling and welcoming me and my brothers and sisters (instead of haranguing us as sinners, as the religious extremists we laughed at did before the parade). I didn't understand why all those friendly people were there, and I really still don't. I'm just so happy they were. Knowing there are so many people out there who support us and don't consider us freaks or dangerous gives me so much hope for the future.

You might want to consider attending one once. You might be surprised.


- Stephanie

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 24, 2019, 12:47:52 PM
Knowing there are so many people out there who support us and don't consider us freaks or dangerous gives me so much hope for the future.

You might want to consider attending one once. You might be surprised.


- Stephanie

It might be true, but i wonder, where are all those wonderful cheering people along the parade route, once the parade is past, for a week, or a months, etc.
I just think about the small town 4th of July parades where all the onlookers cheer even for the septic tanker truck, because they throw a lot of candy.
Were the crowds at the LGBTQ Parade there for the entertainment, or were they real supporters?

Quote from: Linde on May 24, 2019, 01:24:41 PM
It might be true, but i wonder, where are all those wonderful cheering people along the parade route, once the parade is past, for a week, or a months, etc.
I just think about the small town 4th of July parades where all the onlookers cheer even for the septic tanker truck, because they throw a lot of candy.
Were the crowds at the LGBTQ Parade there for the entertainment, or were they real supporters?

We can't know such things, of course. They could be there for the spectacle, or they could be working tirelessly 24/7 on our behalf - or anything in between. But I went to see for myself. Without going I never would have felt the love and developed my positive view of their motives. It's your choice, of course, whether you want to go and see for yourself, or develop your conclusions without the experience.

But why take a negative viewpoint? We ask the rest of the world to think of us kindly, even if they've never met us. Don't we owe it to them to do the same?


Stephanie

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 24, 2019, 01:50:24 PM
We can't know such things, of course. They could be there for the spectacle, or they could be working tirelessly 24/7 on our behalf - or anything in between. But I went to see for myself. Without going I never would have felt the love and developed my positive view of their motives. It's your choice, of course, whether you want to go and see for yourself, or develop your conclusions without the experience.

But why take a negative viewpoint? We ask the rest of the world to think of us kindly, even if they've never met us. Don't we owe it to them to do the same?


Stephanie

Stephanie
If I look at my local support group, most of them seem to be activists in the LGTQI movement and excited marchers in the Fort Myers parade.  But all of them seem to see being transgender as a secondary thing, and the activities as their major reason .  The remind me on drag queens who have not been made-up yet, and just sport long hair.  These are not the kind of people I want to hang out with. 
I am an older woman, and try to dress on the more dressed up/elegant side than wearing flashy stuff.  Those people are easily mid 50's, have very masculine features and are wearing hot pants!  That is not my style!
I am afraid to see these kind of people marching along with me in a parade, and I would feel out of place as i could feel out of place.  I don't know why they are this way, is it poor taste, do the want to make a show, or do they want to be shocking, whatever it is, it is not my way.

Quote from: Linde on May 24, 2019, 02:21:57 PM
Stephanie
If I look at my local support group, most of them seem to be activists in the LGTQI movement and excited marchers in the Fort Myers parade.  But all of them seem to see being transgender as a secondary thing, and the activities as their major reason .  The remind me on drag queens who have not been made-up yet, and just sport long hair.  These are not the kind of people I want to hang out with. 
I am an older woman, and try to dress on the more dressed up/elegant side than wearing flashy stuff.  Those people are easily mid 50's, have very masculine features and are wearing hot pants!  That is not my style!
I am afraid to see these kind of people marching along with me in a parade, and I would feel out of place as i could feel out of place.  I don't know why they are this way, is it poor taste, do the want to make a show, or do they want to be shocking, whatever it is, it is not my way.

If they make you uncomfortable, then I suggest you look more closely at yourself and ask why. X

Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk

Quote from: Linde on May 24, 2019, 02:21:57 PM
Stephanie
If I look at my local support group, most of them seem to be activists in the LGTQI movement and excited marchers in the Fort Myers parade.  But all of them seem to see being transgender as a secondary thing, and the activities as their major reason .  The remind me on drag queens who have not been made-up yet, and just sport long hair.  These are not the kind of people I want to hang out with. 
I am an older woman, and try to dress on the more dressed up/elegant side than wearing flashy stuff.  Those people are easily mid 50's, have very masculine features and are wearing hot pants!  That is not my style!
I am afraid to see these kind of people marching along with me in a parade, and I would feel out of place as i could feel out of place.  I don't know why they are this way, is it poor taste, do the want to make a show, or do they want to be shocking, whatever it is, it is not my way.

Okay, your call. The particular group I know in the Orlando area welcomes all, but generally we're just casual and mainstream. Most of us have the goal of just fitting in as women and men, with no "T" prefix. There are other groups that are a lot more flamboyant. That's their thing and it's cool. And really, for me that's one of the attractive things. Everyone is welcome, and nobody judges. Though I'm often told that I don't have to worry about whether I'm passing, I don't have to even think about it, and I can be as open as I like with my girlfriend (within the bounds of good taste, of course).

I know you're a long way south, but I'd love for you to join us in October for Orlando Pride. I hope that I won't be able to march in the parade this year, but that's because I hope to be recovering from recent surgery. [emoji16]


- Stephanie

Quote from: Megan. on May 24, 2019, 02:32:06 PM
If they make you uncomfortable, then I suggest you look more closely at yourself and ask why. X

Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk

I would not have hung out with these kind of people when they and I were still men.  We simply have nothing in common!
Being some kind of transgender is not enough for me to all of a sudden become friends with these type of persons!
I think I am old enough to have found out, with which kind of people I like to hang out, and with who I prefer not to associate!

Quote from: Linde on May 24, 2019, 03:37:38 PM
I would not have hung out with these kind of people when they and I were still men.  We simply have nothing in common!
Being some kind of transgender is not enough for me to all of a sudden become friends with these type of persons!
I think I am old enough to have found out, with which kind of people I like to hang out, and with who I prefer not to associate!

It's not about being friends or spending time together, it's just accepting that they are as valid as you or me,  no better and certainly no worse.

Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk

Quote from: steph2.0 on May 24, 2019, 02:39:10 PM
Okay, your call. The particular group I know in the Orlando area welcomes all, but generally we're just casual and mainstream. Most of us have the goal of just fitting in as women and men, with no "T" prefix. There are other groups that are a lot more flamboyant. That's their thing and it's cool. And really, for me that's one of the attractive things. Everyone is welcome, and nobody judges. Though I'm often told that I don't have to worry about whether I'm passing, I don't have to even think about it, and I can be as open as I like with my girlfriend (within the bounds of good taste, of course).

I know you're a long way south, but I'd love for you to join us in October for Orlando Pride. I hope that I won't be able to march in the parade this year, but that's because I hope to be recovering from recent surgery. [emoji16]


- Stephanie

I , too, hope you will be recovering from  very good surgery experience, and I hope that I have a date set for my surgery at that time!
I would love to come up for the case that I am already back home from my 3 months plus stay in Minnesota (I hope, I will meet with a lot of Susan's members during that time).  I can steer my motorhome towards Orlando with no problem!
I would love to get together with women who wan to blend in, and be women without waving big flags around.  This is what I am missing, because we do have some special issues, which cannot be understood or answered by my cis friends!

Quote from: Megan. on May 24, 2019, 03:54:44 PM
It's not about being friends or spending time together, it's just accepting that they are as valid as you or me,  no better and certainly no worse.

Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk

They can be any way shape or form they want to be, I just don't feel like hanging out with them, or being associated with them, nothing else did I say.  They are not my kind of people!

I don't get it why you decide to lecture me about my feelings toward other persons, as I said earlier, just being transgender does not create a bond between them and I!

Quote from: Julia1996 on April 29, 2019, 09:34:26 AM
I would love to have some trans friends. Unfortunately I don't know any trans people in RL.
...

Quote from: Aurorasky on April 29, 2019, 10:09:49 AM
You have me. I will move there <3
...

I thought that Julia lived in Denver, so I Googled RL to try to find out where it was.  It turns out that RL is where I used to think I live but now I realise I don't.

On the subject in the OP, I'm not sure what being trans has to do with connecting with people.   If e.g. someone does not connect with trans people with non-traditional lifestyles, that person will also probably not connect with cis people with the same lifestyles.

Quote from: MaryT on May 24, 2019, 04:22:31 PM

On the subject in the OP, I'm not sure what being trans has to do with connecting with people.   If e.g. someone does not connect with trans people with non-traditional lifestyles, that person will also probably not connect with cis people with the same lifestyles.

Very good point! (I'm the OP.)

Yeah, the transness really has nothing to do with it. It's just the non-traditional lifestyle choices where we simply have different preferences. I mean, whether someone is cis or trans, that really doesn't matter.

I just need to meet more trans folks who share my interests...but they're tough to find because they're a lot more hidden.

Sarah

Quote from: sarahc on May 24, 2019, 08:38:53 PM

I just need to meet more trans folks who share my interests...but they're tough to find because they're a lot more hidden.

Sarah

I think we all have this problem!  Most of us have the feeling to be alone in the world.  And if you are intersex and trans, the chance to find another person like me is close to ZERO!

I have the same problem. I have tried connecting with some of the local trans groups and found that I have very little in common with most of the people who show up to the meetings. Most of them are radical far leftists, have brightly colored neon hair, an unusual wardrobe, and tend to have anti-social personalities. The topics almost always end up becoming an endless stream of bashing cis people and not discussing anything constructive to actually help each other.

I'm very much more conservative in my views and lifestyle, I hate drawing attention to myself, and I don't want to sit around disparaging other people and crying about being a victim. I also don't want to show up to a trans support group and talk about abortion, or race relations, or the environment. I care about those things, but that's not why I want to speak with other transgender people.

I know how you feel, when I meet other trans women I often feel detached. My lifestyle is bland and I'm not really into the alternative lifestyle either. I transitioned 2 years ago and 98% of my girl gang is str8 females and a hand full of lesbian chick's that are awesome and super supportive. I can't give you much advice on how to deal with that, but at least you can know your not the only one that feels that way.  Hang in there smile and wave [emoji16][emoji1366][emoji177] Kenzie

               
                   Best Wishes
             [emoji259][emoji175]Kenzie[emoji175][emoji259]

Linde, you start from here:

Quote from: Linde on May 24, 2019, 02:21:57 PM

The  way homosexual people all of a sudden started to do this into your face stuff actually made most of us feeling uncomfortable with them, and caused us to dislike them a lot!

You're aware that this amounts to homophobia, right?

Quote
I am still against this into your face, and the last place I would want to be seen I participating in any of the gay pride events.  Sexuality is a private thing, and there is no reason to wave it i front of me like a banner, my sexual orientation is nobodies public business! 

I don't think it's really your business whether people choose to be 'in others faces' and I think it would help if you understood the origins of pride marches. We are in fact at 50 years since the Stonewall riots. (and 53 years since the Compton's cafeteria riots

Homophobes, particularly the police very much made the sex lives of lesbian and gay and trans men and women their business (in the form of harassment, beatings, arrests) Pride is very much about responding to that in an affirmative way.

Quote
If I look at my local support group, most of them seem to be activists in the LGTQI movement and excited marchers in the Fort Myers parade.  But all of them seem to see being transgender as a secondary thing, and the activities as their major reason .  The remind me on drag queens who have not been made-up yet, and just sport long hair.  These are not the kind of people I want to hang out with. 
I am an older woman, and try to dress on the more dressed up/elegant side than wearing flashy stuff.  Those people are easily mid 50's, have very masculine features and are wearing hot pants!  That is not my style!
I am afraid to see these kind of people marching along with me in a parade, and I would feel out of place as i could feel out of place.  I don't know why they are this way, is it poor taste, do the want to make a show, or do they want to be shocking, whatever it is, it is not my way.

This has already been discussed but it's important to me to respond again to the title of this thread that suggests that being gay, lesbian etc is a 'lifestyle'. I'm lesbian and I also happen to have some fairly strongly felt sexual kinks. These aren't things I choose, they're just part of me.

As it happens I'm not all that comfortable around a lot of heterosexuals and just this afternoon I was talking with a lesbian friend about the difference we feel in the safety of 'queer space'.

Like you I'm first female, trans is really just the path I took to being a woman. I also happen to be lesbian and I also happen to be an activist. I *ALSO* dress pretty conservatively in most circumstances -- even when I was recently on stage in the performance of the vagina monologues, I chose an outfit that expressed the sexy side of an outfit that would  have been appropriate at a business celebration.

Quote from: SadieBlake on May 26, 2019, 10:19:45 PM
Linde, you start from here:
You're aware that this amounts to homophobia, right?

I think so, but that was the way we were brought up.  We overcame that mostly, and gave them more freedom in our country than they ever will have in the US!

Quote
I don't think it's really your business whether people choose to be 'in others faces' and I think it would help if you understood the origins of pride marches. We are in fact at 50 years since the Stonewall riots. (and 53 years since the Compton's cafeteria riots

Homophobes, particularly the police very much made the sex lives of lesbian and gay and trans men and women their business (in the form of harassment, beatings, arrests) Pride is very much about responding to that in an affirmative way.

I think it is very much my business, if people are in MY face!  They can march as much as they want, but when I listen to the reaction of my cis friends, these marches do not earn them a lot of sympathy!
I also do not want to be dragged into these marches, and even tough I am three letters "ITL" out of their logo, I do not feel any real connection to them.  I did not do any pride marches when I was hetero, and I will not do any now that I am lesbian.

Quote
This has already been discussed but it's important to me to respond again to the title of this thread that suggests that being gay, lesbian etc is a 'lifestyle'. I'm lesbian and I also happen to have some fairly strongly felt sexual kinks. These aren't things I choose, they're just part of me.

As it happens I'm not all that comfortable around a lot of heterosexuals and just this afternoon I was talking with a lesbian friend about the difference we feel in the safety of 'queer space'.

Like you I'm first female, trans is really just the path I took to being a woman. I also happen to be lesbian and I also happen to be an activist. I *ALSO* dress pretty conservatively in most circumstances -- even when I was recently on stage in the performance of the vagina monologues, I chose an outfit that expressed the sexy side of an outfit that would  have been appropriate at a business celebration.

I am like you, I happened to become a lesbian, because I became a woman.  My sexual orientation did not change, but i don't have any kinks that I am aware of, I am just a pretty boring older woman who happens to be a lesbian.

But I am also an activist, not for any sexual orientation, but for women in general.  We help less fortunate women to get back onto their feet again, after they hit a streak of bad luck.  And I also dress to the more elegant side, and hardly would wear a t-shirt in public.

Quote from: Kylo on May 06, 2019, 10:28:59 AM
There are trans people who want to fit in with society, blend in and disappear as it were, and not stand out. Either to live as regularly as possible, or to go completely stealth and never be known to have been trans in the first place.

And there are people out there who want to deconstruct society itself, remove gender and gender roles, to create new genders and claim that science needs to add trans as a third category of biological sex, and god knows what else.

In my observation there is a distinct ideology associated with the latter example, who tend to assume that all trans people ought to follow their example, as well as ought to vote for progressive parties and espouse progressive ideas. Their mistake is assuming every trans person is the same, or that we inhabit a Borg-like hive mind. Most trans people I know a) do not want to be trans b) want the condition to go away which is why they transition and c) want a quiet life. That usually means identifying what you are closest to being and then being it. That usually means once done, you simply go back to living a hopefully improved version of your life.

On average most people are not excessively "alternative" - we can see this every time we look at people as they walk down the street or go about their business. But the "alternative" folks are more vocal and do stand out more by definition. They tend to be the activists, the group founders, and the people running trans organizations. It stands to reason you see less traditional leaning trans individuals as they are most likely to have completed their journey and dropped off the radar.   

I can relate to this answer so so much.

I have been attacked multiple times in a group that I tried to attend for not wanting to adopt their views.
I felt more rejected by transgender people and been kicked out of groups than by CIS people.

I was attacked because I asked questions about why they have this views and some of it just pisses general society off and is making it harder to accept transgender people.

You can't force a man that is not interested in sleeping with a transgender woman because of his own sexual preference. Then expect him to change his view because you want to feel more validated as a woman and him sleeping with you will give you that. You are a transgender woman he prefers natal woman. I am transgender and I even know that is picking a fight and will piss a lot of CIS people that have no preference to sleep with transgender people off. Because now they feel that if it is expected of that guy it is going to be expected of me.

I got kicked out of the group for not agreeing with a lot of their views.

I feel sometimes that this people with their distinct ideology is digging the hole of problems deeper for us.

When someone's youth is lost to testosterone and policed masculine gender roles, they quite understandably may try to recapture that and dress in ways that are more in your face for people their age.

If I was one of those people and I went to a popular trans support site like Susans and saw that at least one of my local support groups attendees compared me to an un made up drag queen, we would have a problem. One of us would have to leave that group. Cos I wouldn't go there and express myself knowing I'm being harshly judged and by who.

Welcome to the world of woman. We judge other woman each day for the way they dress. If you want to be a woman get used to it.

girls criticize me, so I rather have the company of men, they're kind and most do what I want if I smile enough, regarding trans girls I don't know, I know no trans girl in person, I'd like to tho', it might be fun

Quote from: Amoré on May 28, 2019, 01:08:40 AM
Welcome to the world of woman. We judge other woman each day for the way they dress. If you want to be a woman get used to it.

A trans woman does not have to accept harsh judgement to be a woman and should speak up.  Toxic presences should be removed from a person's safe spaces regardless of gender.

Expecting people to "get used to it" in a support group  eliminates trust in said group and undermines it's purpose. To the point where they may as well disband.   

Quote from: JMJW on May 28, 2019, 04:53:07 AM
A trans woman does not have to accept harsh judgement to be a woman and should speak up.  Toxic presences should be removed from a person's safe spaces regardless of gender.

Expecting people to "get used to it" in a support group  eliminates trust in said group and undermines it's purpose. To the point where they may as well disband.   

No one ever judged her to her face and told her that she looks like that did they? So no harm done to that person and she was left to be. So Linde never did any harm at all to that person.

But the funny part in this Groups they judge CIS people harshly. I was so disgusted with this because those CIS people is my friends my family my co-workers my fiance they fall under the "CIS" umbrella then.

I admit I kinda only skimmed a lot of the replies here but honestly? Friendships based on one SOLE trait (like transness, or gayness, or liking football or shoes or something) are always a doomed enterprise. Just because you have ONE thing in common doesn't mean you have everything in common nor that you'll get along as people.

the trans community is varied as heck and thinking all trans people should be bffs is like saying all brunettes should get along great because of that one shared trait.

I look at my friendship groups over the years and the people who i've really clicked with have been people who share my love for life, accept my wierdness in all forms (I'm a really wierd person okay?) and don't judge me. We share interests for the most part (we're all major geeks) but we of course have things that are ours and ours alone (one is a musician, one an artist, one loves football, another is a workaholic super focused on career) but we get along because we, as individuals have enough shared attitudes to enjoy one another's company.

It's sort of like when you're a kid and your parents FORCE you to be "friends" with other kids because they're in your class or they live next door and you never actually get on but you fake it because you have to.

Ultimately, people are so varied and so individual. You gravitate toward those who make you feel like you can be your genuine self. That's friendship after all.

And it's nothing to be ashamed of to not get along with someone in your community. There's no rule saying all trans people should love one another and all get along and never argue and all be the same mind.

I mean dang, I keep getting told i'm not "allowed" to like certain things or act or dress in certain ways because it's "not masculine enough" and i'm like "please, get outta my face."
Point is, we don't ALL have to get along. Sometimes it's not even dislike it's just you have NOTHING to talk about, no common ground and zero chemistry to continue interacting beyond the neccisary enounters. Not everyone you meet is gonna be your friend, even if they're super nice. That's just not how the world works.

I agree with others saying girls are the worst for judgement. That said, I have known some pretty two faced guys too. Thing is though, guys are far more likely to say it to your face in my experience, while girls just snip behind your back.
But my personal experience with gendered groups is far far better versed in male relationships as I haven't really surrounded myself with girls since I was 12. I have one or two female friends, but I wouldn't say we were close.
My male circle are my friends for life.

And you know, i'm actually kinda thankful I got out when I did. I don't have the patience for it and interestingly, cultivating a very masculine friendship group seems to have saved me an awful lot of the mysogynistic interactions many women describe. Maybe because I always had guys around me? Or because I was not behaving in a generally percieved feminine manner? Whatever the case, i find it kinda... jarring actually when I read all these articles of women about my age talking about how much horrible stuff guys have done to them over the years and it gives statistics and it's like MOST women this is what their daily life is and i'm sitting there going "wait what?"
I mean dang, how effectively did I ditch womanhood? I must be extremely ridiculously lucky.
But it makes me wonder how much I can actually reasonably claim to have been "socialised female" as a result.

FPM (et al) I've been told that I focused too much on appearance and that appearance wasn't the 'point' of being a woman. I got that message loud and clear from all members of a therapy group I used to participate in, ironically they also never accepted me as a woman and also made it clear that my lack of interest in passing was part of that ("I wasn't willing to work hard enough to be passable as a woman").

That's a fairly true fit for the "double bind" theory for genesis of schizophrenia.

Quote from: JMJW on May 28, 2019, 04:53:07 AM
A trans woman does not have to accept harsh judgement to be a woman and should speak up.  Toxic presences should be removed from a person's safe spaces regardless of gender.

Expecting people to "get used to it" in a support group  eliminates trust in said group and undermines it's purpose. To the point where they may as well disband.   

Well and good, however how do people learn not to make those harsh judgements without participating in the 'safe space'? Those are essential points to doing interpersonal work: to learn how to deal with differences both in receiving them (because we know they aren't going away in all the places we have to go in order to live our lives) ... and on the part of the judging person, how to express lack of understanding of someone's life/expression/reality without doing them harm.

Now I agree we might think especially trans people would learn not to pigeonhole people into narrow views of gender. Somehow that isn't the case all the time.

I get dirty looks often enough on the bus, shopping etc. I just make eye contact, let them know they can't harsh my mellow. Same thing in closer interpersonal relationships ... ymmv

Quote from: Linde on May 27, 2019, 01:32:46 AM
I think so, but that was the way we were brought up.  We overcame that mostly, and gave them more freedom in our country than they ever will have in the US! I think it is very much my business, if people are in MY face! They can march as much as they want, but when I listen to the reaction of my cis friends, these marches do not earn them a lot of sympathy!
I also do not want to be dragged into these marches, and even tough I am three letters "ITL" out of their logo, I do not feel any real connection to them.  I did not do any pride marches when I was hetero, and I will not do any now that I am lesbian.I am like you, I happened to become a lesbian, because I became a woman.  My sexual orientation did not change, but i don't have any kinks that I am aware of, I am just a pretty boring older woman who happens to be a lesbian.

Excuse me, (Germany? Netherlands?) may at this time afford more protections for LGBT people than (some sections) of the US, I don't much care what your nation does and on the other hand I reject the notion that any nation state can 'give' someone freedoms. We are free by definition, free will is something all people have. Rather I would say the state exists to on the one hand restrict most people's freedoms in often quite drastic ways (American's seem to believe that our nation has a lock on this subject, ironic given there are very few places in the US where one can simply have a beer in a public place ... I could go on). The other main purpose of the state is to protect us from each other and again the LGBTQ pride movement very much exists because we used to be seen as inherently evil. At least today the pendulum has swung some on that as far as law goes.

It seems your definition of 'in your face' is how people choose to attire themselves (and yes pride parades are known for fairly over-the-top fashion expressions. Guess what? beatings at the hands of our fellow citizens have been the norm in the past, are certainly still the norm in some places. Same goes for walking down the street holding the hand of a same-sex partner. Please remember Linde when you reject pride marches that people still die for expressions that simple. You find that how we express ourselves makes you not like us? Well that's exactly why we're out there.

Lastly, I don't think you're at any risk of being 'dragged' to a pride parade. However I would ask you to look at your activism and if your notion of what you think is worthy of your time and effort can't exist without someone else's activism being 'wrong' in your eyes then (in my view, you're welcome to disagree) there's a problem.

In my view nobody is free until we all are. That's why I'm a feminist, that's why if I work toward freedom for trans women then I work hard to also be thinking about cis women also and gay men and lesbians and people of color. I also remember that my context makes it hard for me to see the issues of people who struggle under different burdens (ability, color, financial status ... ).

Also for the record I don't spend a lot of time worrying about men / cis / heteronormative / wealthy / etc people. Yes, they're people too however having needed to blend into the world as an apparently CIS male I know very well how much privilege comes with that designation. I learned to pass as that, I survived and did well by at least a few different measures and I also hated myself more and more every time I did play that card of taking advantage of what I had learned to pass as in order to make life apparently 'easier'. It certainly was the easy path in the short run, less so over the longer term.

Quote from: Amoré on May 28, 2019, 11:09:06 AM
No one ever judged her to her face and told her that she looks like that did they? So no harm done to that person and she was left to be. So Linde never did any harm at all to that person.

How do you know that? How does Linde know that? This is a popular trans forum and this is the main subforum. And Linde's picture is right next to the post. Posting such views anyway with your picture right there on the most popular trans forum on the internet when you know there's a decent chance someone from your group might see it is for all intents and purposes saying it out loud within ear shot. Now that person still might not hear you, but they could.

Quote from: JMJW on May 29, 2019, 06:25:15 AM
How do you know that? How does Linde know that? This is a popular trans forum and this is the main subforum. And Linde's picture is right next to the post. Posting such views anyway with your picture right there on the most popular trans forum on the internet when you know there's a decent chance someone from your group might see it is for all intents and purposes saying it out loud within ear shot. Now that person still might not hear you, but they could.

Linde has no clue what she did!  Linde spoke her opinion about the group members openly in front of them, when we discussed those things.  We are pretty open in our group about things like this.
I think some people here try to interpret something into my text that was not said and not meant the way it is dragged around here now.
So, please stop it already with your interpretation, nobody asked you to be the defender of the poor trans children!


Let me say it once more very clear, every person in my support group knows pretty well what my feelings are, and hey can also identify me by my picture for the case there are members here.

They seem to do well when we talk about it, I guess they don't need any knights in shining armor in this forum either!