Hi all.
I have a question to ask you all. More of a pondering, actually. It seems to me that a lot of us discovered ourselves in our fifties and sixties. I did at the tender age of 62. That seems to me to be a pattern. I'm just curious if anyone has an idea as to why we would wait until this age to make such a huge discovery. Any thoughts?
Camille,
I have no idea why there are many who might be not identify themselves as transgender until later in life. We may have insufficient data to make a statistically significant informed judgment.
We can speculate and you may see some replies soon where we speak of ourselves personally and not collectively.
For me, I cross dressed since college. Then in graduate school I realized that I might be transgender. I got gender therapy for clarification. I have never had any attraction to males. I had no extreme traumatic life experiences and I was never abused in any way.
It is what I call common horse sense that a person born with a penis is medically defined as male. However for some reasons that does not fit for some and they are actually women.
Perhaps it takes years for some to arrive at the conclusion they are actually women with the wrong body. But that is okay. There is no timetable that needs to be followed. A corresponding situation exists for FTMs thinking that they are in the wrong body.
Some things remain a mystery.
Chrissy
Society has become more accepting of transgenders.
There are now commercial establishments that are openly accepting of LGBTQ+ patrons.
Let me propose this: Few of us recognise dysphoria from incongruence from an early age, and our lives are so busy that we just don't take the time to analyse the times we feel down and frustrated. We generally put it down to other things in life. As we enter our 'Golden Years' we slow up, and pay more attention to what is bugging us. By this time we are also more life smart, having experienced most things, so we are better able to analyse ourselves.
About this same time, our hormone levels begin to change. Our dominant hormones reduce, and this allows our secondary hormones (we all produce both Testosterone and Estrogen) to be more effective. This changes our perceptions a little. All these things combine to make it more likely that we can connect the dots over a lifetime and realise they were from incongruence.
Hugs,
Allie
I agree with Allie Jayne.
In my younger years, I was just too busy. I joined the Army right after my 18th birthday and served almost 15 years. I got married, had kids, got divorced, remarried, and was focused on raising a family. I got injured and went on total disability, my wife got sick and passed away, and I was struggling to make ends meet. I married a third time, started some small businesses for income, and continued to be busy. It wasn't until I divorced wife #3 that I decided to move to South Dakota. I decided that I would no longer have to worry about jobs or family or what anyone else expected of me. I was going to do what I wanted to do.
Since my hectic life had finally calmed down, I was able to focus on taking care of myself. I got into therapy to try to understand why my life followed the path that it did. It was in therapy that I learned that I was transgender. Combining that with other discoveries (I am an asexual introvert) really helped me understand why things happened the way that they did. Being retired gave me the time to invest in examining myself that I never had before.
As we get older, we have more time for reflection and examination, so it makes sense that we would make these discoveries later in life.
Humans are a lot tougher than we give ourselves credit for. As children, we are told who we are, and we are programmed to believe our parents. So we spend decades trying to be who we were told we were. It takes a long time to realize that (a) it isn't working, and (b) it's not because we aren't trying hard enough.
By the time we have passed through middle age, we have enough life experience to be able to analyze the situation properly and figure out that we were misled.
I read somewhere that the most common age to come out as MTF is 35-55. The most common age for FTMs is much younger, something like 15-30 (though I forget the exact numbers).
There is a lot of self denial too.
It is like the we think we will have a hard time being accepted, so we deny, deny, deny to possibly avoid being outcast.
I do not understand why gays, previously very much outcast, are more mainstream now and we transgender people are not there yet. (Nothing against gays when I say that.)
I conclude that they have transformed the thinking of society that they are very much just people like many who are not gay.
We have not done that as well.
So. . . Maybe people get the nerve to come out as transgender later in life - being fearful of what that disclosure may do to them as they are younger adults. That is simply speculation.
Note that they may realize that they ARE transgender much earlier than when and if they come out as transgender.
Quote from: Camille58S on April 26, 2025, 07:22:38 PMI have a question to ask you all. More of a pondering, actually. It seems to me that a lot of us discovered ourselves in our fifties and sixties. I did at the tender age of 62. That seems to me to be a pattern. I'm just curious if anyone has an idea as to why we would wait until this age to make such a huge discovery.
It's only recently that transgender has been a widespread concept. Before that there were just the occasional news stories (always sensational) and so older generations grew up feeling confused about gender but without the words and concepts to understand that they were.
I'm in my sixties too and more or less had to go to medical school in the 1970s to find out what was bothering me :-) It sounds crazy but it's not that much of an exaggeration.
On top of that, a lot of people operated denial and used hyper-gendering to 'scare off' the dysphoria because of genuine worries about acceptance. Go back to the generation born after the 1914 European war and I'd bet there were numbers of trans people who never realised they were trans because they had no idea what trans was!
Something that occurs to me is it depends how strong your dysphoria and how binary you are will also determine how early you'll present. If you have a strong 'born in the wrong body' dysphoria, then I can see why you'll present early, especially if you were AMAB. If your dysphoria isn't that strong, then it's easier to compromise with it, especially if you were AFAB, because gender policing isn't so strong for women. And if you are non-binary, as a third of 'new' trans people are now, you find yourself in a liminal zone where there aren't any signposts.
Quite a few late presenters I've encountered have turned out to be non-binary. Couple that with lack of available information and you'd be as lost as I was to begin with.
Conversely, the more society pushes gender norms during your childhood years, the more deeply they're embedded in you. One thing I've noticed with late presenters is they've often had very conservative parents or grown up in very conservative communities. Even today, that's a barrier to coming out, but sixty years ago, escapting that situation was like crossing the Berlin wall.
I'm one who found herself in her late 60s. I think there's much to Allie's ideas. Our generation was culturally bereft of acceptance of gays, let alone having any understanding or tolerance for someone feeling as if they were not gendered properly. I went into the military and buried myself in being the best man that I could and it wasn't until I retired from the Army that the beginnings of dysphoria began to seep through. As I slowed down, and perhaps as my hormonal balance changed, the desires to reflect femininity in my life took hold and grew over several decades. As the dysphoria strengthened my depression deepened until it all came exploding out of me a little over 2 years ago. Honestly, had I not opened up to my wife at that point, I'm not sure I'd be here today. Depression can lead you into some very dark places that become not scary but warm and inviting.
As much as I sometimes wish I'd found myself earlier in life, I would not trade the love of my family or the two amazing careers I've had. I'm living my life forward.
We each have our own stories. None are identical.
Quote from: TanyaG on April 27, 2025, 10:43:56 AMIt's only recently that transgender has been a widespread concept.
Just to clarify, Transgender has been a concept under different names for millennia, but it is only in recent decades that there has been western society wide awareness of the term transgender.
I knew in 1958 that I had an incongruent gender identity, and so did 2 other children in my street, but we didn't have terminology for it, and we had to hide it for our survival. I'm sure many other people recognised incongruence, but denied it. Back in those days, it was seen as a mental disorder, treated by shock 'therapy', so very few people admitted their incongruence.
Even now, I don't believe we have the terminology correct, and in 50 years I would expect we will have a different understanding of our condition.
Hugs,
Allie
I had no idea I was non-binary until I started dreaming about a woman in my early sixties (about a decade ago). It took me several more years to realize that I was the woman I was dreaming about (which explained why I never could see her face). Before then, I assumed I was a mentally ill pervert who liked to dress in my wife's clothes. In some ways, the awareness was liberating. In other ways, knowledge was terrifying: once I understood my dreams, I was forced to confront them. It's been a rocky road since then. But I believe I am finally on the road I'm meant to follow.
Quote from: April Marie on April 27, 2025, 01:55:25 PMI'm one who found herself in her late 60s.
Did you have any suspicion at all that something was off when you were a child?
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 27, 2025, 07:51:01 PMIt took me several more years to realize that I was the woman I was dreaming about (which explained why I never could see her face).
People discovering their gender identity isn't what they thought it was in later life hasn't been researched to more than the most minimal level. Almost every single person I've ever dealt with directly (which was about a hundred give or take) had had some kind of suspicion around in early childhood that something wasn't right. Some of the older clients I worked with who had suspected their transness late had spent years or decades in either denial or suppression, the trauma from which was usually apparent in mental health issues, multiple relationship failures and addictions, before they accepted they were trans.
I'd been signed up to the idea that most people suspect they're trans when they're children because that would make sense if our gender identity was mostly innate (as in inherited/genetic) but more to the point, that it was fixed. In other words, that we're trans from the moment we're old enough to think about gender identity and realise we don't fit with the gender identity we've been assigned at birth.
What you, Camille, and April Marie are saying is that you didn't suspect anything when you were children? If you all lived quite normal lives until you began to suspect you were trans, it would suggest gender identity can drift, which would make it like fluid sexual orientation, which is well accepted now, particularly so in women.
If there are other members of Susans who've only begun to suspect they were trans late after living lives free of any signs of mental health issues which could be linked to supressed gender id, then this is something that has gone under the radar in the scientific literature!
I've just dug out the latest report on what's called the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria (ACGD) study because I half recalled it had numbers that backed up what I've seen (which very clearly isn't everything, what a surprise). The ACGD started in 1972 and has been continuously updated, and by 2015 had 3838 trans people on its books.
The last year of data the 2018 report captured was 2014, but there was 42 years of data there and they had 1444 people who had started HRT on the records. All are adults because of the way the system works in the Netherlands but there was no upper age restriction on who the clinics would accept as a referral.
The youngest AMAB person they record as starting on gender affirming hormone therapy was 25 and the oldest 47. That's odd because I'd expect to see at some people beginning transitioning late since the clinics were okay with it, but we're not seeing those referrals in their numbers and the ACGD is one of the most well maintained, open and comprehensive studies around.
So either AMAB people presenting as trans post 47 is a post 2014 phenomenon in the Netherlands at least, or something has changed. The question is what?
One data point in the ACGD that might give a clue is the AFAB people have always presented to their clinics a decade earlier than AMAB.
Quote from: TanyaG on April 28, 2025, 02:32:05 AMDid you have any suspicion at all that something was off when you were a child?
A slipped into my mother's closet a bit when I was a child but my father made it known that I was to be as tough as him - a Korean War Marine so those thoughts got buried quickly. I was always fascinated by the female body - not from a sexul standpoint but from the perspective of "how wonderful it would be to have a body like that. But, again, I never let those thoughts mature into and real substantive thing.
Quote from: April Marie on April 28, 2025, 04:01:05 AMA slipped into my mother's closet a bit when I was a child but my father made it known that I was to be as tough as him - a Korean War Marine so those thoughts got buried quickly.
Okay, that would fit with what I heard from the AMAB people I worked with. Only a handful didn't recall wearing their mother's or sister's clothes when they were around four to six but there were many who had been subject to the kind of hostility/reprisals that made it easy to understand why they hadn't acted on it. The thing that struck me was I never had to dig around for that memory; everyone who had it could easily recall it and that's significant because we don't remember much from that age.
Out of sheer professional and personal curiousity, I've had more people in my head in terms of psychologists and analysts than maybe any person alive and I've got a variation of the same pattern you have. Right down to a father who was in an elite armed forces unit.
Quote from: TanyaG on April 28, 2025, 04:16:14 AMOkay, that would fit with what I heard from the AMAB people I worked with. Only a handful didn't recall wearing their mother's or sister's clothes when they were around four to six but there were many who had been subject to the kind of hostility/reprisals that made it easy to understand why they hadn't acted on it. The thing that struck me was I never had to dig around for that memory; everyone who had it could easily recall it and that's significant because we don't remember much from that age.
Out of sheer professional and personal curiousity, I've had more people in my head in terms of psychologists and analysts than maybe any person alive and I've got a variation of the same pattern you have. Right down to a father who was in an elite armed forces unit.
I also have vivid memories of those times but I was a bit older - more in the 8 to 10 years old range. I have a picture of me at age 8. I had to take trash outside and was in my underwear and t-shirt. When I got to the door, I slipped into a pair of my sister's heels and grabbed her coat to throw over m and went outside. It was a subconscious choice because I had shoes and a coat there, too. My sister had seen me and grabbed her Brownie camera and snapped my picture as I came back into the house. Of course, we laughed about it then. But, I look at it now and realize it's the earliest chance to see the beginnings of my true self peeking back at me.
Quote from: April Marie on April 28, 2025, 04:52:24 AMBut, I look at it now and realize it's the earliest chance to see the beginnings of my true self peeking back at me.
Memories like this are almost universally in trans people. I had clients come to me in their forties and fifties saying they suspected they were trans for the first time, but when I asked if they had memories like yours from when they were children they were reliably there. Those memories must have been powerful, because they had lasted, but they'd been discounted. Or suppressed, because they didn't fit the gender narrative the person was trying to live.
I'd be interested to hear the stories of anyone here who didn't have early memories like you and I do, especially members who weren't part of families or communities which were strongly anti-trans. Even the hint that such people exist is intriguing.
Quote from: Camille58S on April 26, 2025, 07:22:38 PM... why we would wait until this age [=fifties and sixties] to make such a huge discovery. Any thoughts?
In my case, I think that even as a young child I had a feeling that I was more of a girl than a boy, but I was so frightened by the (social) consequences of even thinking about it that I repressed it. I remember in third grade reading
The Marvelous Land of Oz and being frightened by the part where Tip gets turned (back) into Ozma and having a feeling of dread. I would sometimes imagine waking up one morning as a girl and imagine the abuse and rejection and ostracism I would inevitably face if that ever really happened.
But I always knew that I wasn't a real boy. I remember even in first grade hating and rejecting most of the stuff that boys were expected to do and be -- and being ostracized for it. I was constantly called "queer" and "weirdo", once I reached the age when boys were aware of the terms. I grew up feeling like I wasn't really human (a feeling which persists to this day.)
As an adult I saw the ways I was more like an woman than a man. I remember all the "Dear Abby" letters that said that men's attitude toward sex was doing "the old in-and-out" while women were more interested in cuddling, and thinking that I had the women's attitude. The whole "be number one" thing never attracted me, and I preferred cooperating to competing. And I liked the idea of being "pretty", even if being assigned male meant I wasn't allowed to do it.
But even after I learned of "trans" (around 2000?), I didn't think of myself as "trans" since I never felt like "a woman trapped in a man's body," nor had I always thought of myself as a girl. (More like a space alien.) What happened was that around that time I realized that remaining alive had no appeal to me. Just letting myself dissolve into nothingness seemed rather nice. However, I had two kids (11 & 14) who needed me for emotional support (my wife was better at some things, but not emotional support), so I went through the painful process of divorcing and setting up my own household. And I realized -- at age 50 -- that if I was going to stay alive, I would have to stop trying (however unsuccessfully) to be what other people said I had to be and find out who I really was.
A large part of my consciously accepting the idea that I was trans came from the stuff I was reading on the Web. I think the Web really freed us, and it showed me that trans was a lot broader than the leering stuff that the mainstream media were feeding us. And so, at age 60, I started exploring that idea, and at 63, I transitioned.
I don't think I could have even considered the idea of transitioning before, say, 2000. The world I knew was just too hostile to the idea, and there didn't seem to be any support systems in place. I'm basically a coward, and starting on a path when I couldn't clearly see any safe way of proceeding was just too scary.
Quote from: Asche on April 28, 2025, 07:35:37 AMIn my case, I think that even as a young child I had a feeling that I was more of a girl than a boy, but I was so frightened by the (social) consequences of even thinking about it that I repressed it.
Hi Asche, lots of hugs, been there, had most of those thoughts. Did a lot of us took the quite pragmatic decision then that maybe now wasn't the time? There was such a stack of prejudice against being trans that a lot of people recognised which way the wind was blowing on their gender identity ended up doing what you did. Hell, I did it too and that was despite having a girlfriend in my teens who was encouraging beyond the call of duty.
Once you've gone down the 'now isn't the time' road, then repression or denial are tempting paths to follow, although for people who haven't had some kind of escape valve they often led to a lot of angst. I lost count of the people where I asked, 'If you could have transitioned and known you'd be accepted, would you have done it 10/20/30 years ago?' Never once did I get the answer 'No'.
That's very helpful, but I'd love to hear from someone who never had the single digit years experience of trans-ness who lived a life free of mental health and relationship issues for several decades before discovering they were trans. If we have people like that here, it will rewrite a lot of assumptions.
Quote from: Asche on April 28, 2025, 07:35:37 AMThe world I knew was just too hostile to the idea, and there didn't seem to be any support systems in place.
I've described my situation this way. Unfortunately the societal pendulum seems to be moving backwards. I can't change who I am though. Won't. Just have to be cautious.
Quote from: D'Amalie on April 28, 2025, 08:02:29 AMUnfortunately the societal pendulum seems to be moving backwards.
Just by discussing it here, we push it the other way, hon.
Quote from: TanyaG on April 28, 2025, 05:33:05 AMI'd be interested to hear the stories of anyone here who didn't have early memories like you and I do, especially members who weren't part of families or communities which were strongly anti-trans. Even the hint that such people exist is intriguing.
I'm 66 and really don't have any early memories of wanting to dress in womans clothes. I do have a couple memories of a Halloween when I may have been about 6 and at Halloween My older sister dressed me as a girl for Halloween. I vaguely recollect this but it was not a bad thing and after that it became a thing that my older sister would spend more time with me for the next couple years playing dress up. I never payed no mind. It was only like i said a very vague memory. This stopped after we moved and I she got new friends. I often wonder if it ever really happened.
Nothing ever like this ever happened again.
I grew up and moved to England at the age of 9 and becam real close friend with my neighbor. I never thought much about it. She was the same age. We became very good friends. We were inseparable. Nothing really happened but my brothers all had guy friends. I never thought much about it until recently. Maybe it's nothing. In 1974 I moved back to USA.
I went to high school and met my girlfriend, joined the Navy, got married, had 2 children. During this time things started to shift. I was never able to explain what was going on. I would be very jelous of her why I could never figure out why. It was not of normal things. I would have something inside me and just want something more like her and I couldn't explain. Anyway so I would make many deployments in the Navy. It would be many many months away from home. After years of marriage I wrote my wife on one of thoughts of wanting to wear his her nightgowns to bed. I think I was reaching out. Long story short. Shut down. This led to divorce.
Throughout my life Transgender was not really ever heard of. At least not in my circles. It was always gay or lesbian. My wife was a catholic and I was brought up catholic. So this idea was always deemed not heard of. After divorce, I started to investigate things but still Transgender disnt really come into my circle unti the 2020's. This is when I started to hear and see more of this. My son came out to me and my family as a transgender woman about 5 years ago. At this time, I was still not sure but I started to have more thoughts about myself but still suppressed so much as I was still in Government service. It wasn't until recently that I started to reflect on my life and I couldn't deny who I was anymore.
Quote from: Annaliese on April 28, 2025, 08:21:03 AMI do have a couple memories of a Halloween when I may have been about 6 and at Halloween My older sister dressed me as a girl for Halloween. I vaguely recollect this but it was not a bad thing and after that it became a thing that my older sister would spend more time with me for the next couple years playing dress up.
Interesting you have those memories. Straight away my response is that vast majority of people I've known/worked with don't have bad memories of what
they felt about being dressed as girls, only of
other people's bad reactions to them being dressed as girls, but if it went on for a couple of years then I'd flag it because it's not something you come across in cis people. I'd add its the bad reactions that cause the suppression, but the feeling of contentment, or 'right-ness' of being able to be another gender seems to open a door in the mind to how life might be lived another way.
Plenty of late teen/adult men have dressed in women's clothes once (usually stag parties, hazing etc) but it's unusual for it to happen at single digit ages and for it to be repeated, let alone for any length of time. Yet trans people reliably have memories of repeated episodes of dressing as the other sex. Thanks for being so honest, it shows how amazingly complex this gender id thing is.
I was also brought up a Catholic, BTW but by the age of ten was arguing the Jesuits to a standstill and they eventually used to chase me away when I came up with another question! I still have fond memories of those guys even if they must have dreaded seeing me.
Good points Tanya. But, not realizing you were trans doesn't mean fitting in. I struggled all my life with the male script. I could play it well enough to be accepted, but it never felt right. I always felt like a imposter. I had plenty of reasons to feel that way. As a child and young adult, I spoke with a serious stutter. I beat it by the time I was 25, but it taught me a few things! I learned what it felt like to be teased for something that you had no control over. That gave me a strong sense of empathy. It made me more thoughtful also.
On top of that I am bisexual. I realized that by the time I was 12. So, my feelings of not fitting in with the typical bro culture I attributed to that. None of that, however, felt quite right It wasn't until I discovered my feminine side that I felt comfortable and complete. I never thought about my gender identity until then.
Quote from: Camille58S on April 28, 2025, 08:59:18 AMBut, not realizing you were trans doesn't mean fitting in. I struggled all my life with the male script. I could play it well enough to be accepted, but it never felt right. I always felt like a imposter.
I've expressed myself badly, then. If you go back and can pick up the first clue that someone was trans, which is usually somewhere between the ages of 4 and 6 but maybe a little later, then regardless of whether they realised whether they were trans or not at that age, problems tend to pile up between then and when they accept they are trans. In other words, whether you can put a name to it or not, the difference between how you would like to be and how family and society make you be ends up stressing you out.
Does that make sense?
Quote from: Camille58S on April 28, 2025, 08:59:18 AMOn top of that I am bisexual. I realized that by the time I was 12. So, my feelings of not fitting in with the typical bro culture I attributed to that. None of that, however, felt quite right It wasn't until I discovered my feminine side that I felt comfortable and complete. I never thought about my gender identity until then.
You did better on the mixed sex attraction than I did then, which didn't get picked up on despite everyone and his dog having a field day with what's in my head. I'd suspected it was there, but that I'd suppressed it and I only flushed it into the open by extremely devious methods! A bit too late for me to take advantage of it, but hey, I feel good about it.
Quote from: TanyaG on April 28, 2025, 08:31:16 AMvast majority of people I've known/worked with don't have bad memories of what they felt about being dressed as girls, only of other people's bad reactions to them being dressed as girls,
Very true! I'm guessing we could profile ourselves with tidbits like this!
Quote from: Camille58S on April 28, 2025, 08:59:18 AMI struggled all my life with the male script. I could play it well enough to be accepted, but it never felt right. I always felt like a imposter. I had plenty of reasons to feel that way.
Again! Add this to the profile.
Quote from: D'Amalie on April 28, 2025, 09:18:29 AMI'm guessing we could profile ourselves with tidbits like this!
Anyone can do it. I've found it quite amazingly liberating, because so many things I did and thought fall into place and I can see why I took all the wrong turns I did and even some of the ones that were right :-) But more than anything, it's left me at peace with myself.
I've had a go at listing out some of the feelings people experience about being trans here (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,249043.msg2301225.html#msg2301225) and I'm sure others can add to the list. Most of this stuff we share in common.
All this leads me to be glad I am in therapy! Speech disorder? Bisexuality? Self diagnosing sucks!
Quote from: TanyaG on April 28, 2025, 08:31:16 AMI'd add Plenty of late teen/adult men have dressed in women's clothes once (usually stag parties, hazing etc) but it's unusual for it to happen at single digit ages and for it to be repeated, let alone for any length of time. Yet trans people reliably have memories of repeated episodes of dressing as the other sex. Thanks for being so honest, it shows how amazingly complex this gender id thing is.
Oh I had several repeated episodes of dressing as a woman since my divorce. I also had a relationship dealing in bisexuality and another with cross dressing. This all happened after the incident with my ex wife. I listed alot of these in my introduction. It has been a long time struggle.
Quote from: Camille58S on April 28, 2025, 09:29:41 AMAll this leads me to be glad I am in therapy!
Therapy's good and now you'll be able to test your therapist's resolve with everything we've shared between us :-)
Quote from: Annaliese on April 28, 2025, 09:31:46 AMOh I had several repeated episodes of dressing as a woman since my divorce.
Then it's been persistent in you, even if it was intermittent. There are so many people with similar stories. I can remember a couple of people who came to me about relationships which were gay and involved cross dressing on their part and were rocked when I asked what the issue was they'd come to me about. Among the best moments in my life was watching the expressions on their faces change from an expectation of censure to disbelief I wasn't fussed about it, and finally to 'Okaaay, what is it actually does bug me about this experience?'
I wish I was raised as a girl. I was not.
But, that is okay. It is not something that I could or can control.
There are many things I can control, why fret over what you cannot? So I do not.
I am unsure what makes someone transgender or why they realize they are at any specific age. Some things are not easily explained, at least by me.
Chrissy
Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 28, 2025, 09:42:58 AMBut, that is okay. It is not something that I could or can control.
Which is great, if you don't have any issues, then there's no need to deal with them. But for people who do, therapy is really powerful, because a lot of us have a tendency to chain the dragons of our minds to the foot of our beds. Which is fine when the dragons are small, but they have a habit of not staying that way. Therapy is a gateway to allowing people to unchain their dragons, or at the very least, stop feeding them a high protein diet :-)
Quote from: TanyaG on April 28, 2025, 02:52:08 AMWhat you, Camille, and April Marie are saying is that you didn't suspect anything when you were children?
Nope. I knew I was a girl when I was four years old but that passing notion was violently dispelled as were a few feeble subsequent attempts at expressing femininity. Fortunately, I realized I was female attracted and assumed many hetero-males experienced a childhood 'girl' phase. I did not bring the 'suppressed' feminine identity to conscious thought until a decade or so ago following a life of compulsive behaviors, more failed relationships than Elizabeth Taylor, and 'closeted' cross-dressing that began in my early twenties which I considered to be a weird and perverse fetish (though there was never any high degree of sexuality associated with the cross dressing--I just liked doing it). Hope that clarifies things, TanyaG.
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 28, 2025, 09:48:58 AMI did not bring the 'suppressed' feminine identity to conscious thought until a decade or so ago following a life of compulsive behaviors, more failed relationships than Elizabeth Taylor,
You too, then. More trouble happens in that gap between us suspecting we're trans (even if we write it off as episodes of childhood crossdressing) and when we accept we're trans than, as my dear mother would say, 'you can shake a stick at'.
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 28, 2025, 09:48:58 AMNope. I knew I was a girl when I was four years old
I was closer to five, I think. I didn't know I was a girl, I just knew I didn't like certain dangly bits. Though I recognized the difference between boys and girls, I never saw the difference as sexual. No different than racial characteristics that are recognizable. As a teen, I was always confused about people's seeming obsession with sex. It was like that was all they talked about. Decades later, I learned that I am an ace (asexual), so that explains those past experiences.
I never experimented with cross-dressing or even thought about it. As the oldest of four "boys," I was expected to set a good example, and that training came from my dad. But that also did not provide any opportunity to experiment with cross-dressing, and perhaps being an ace suppressed that idea from coming forward. That just isn't how I see people.
It is interesting to look back and see the signposts that you never saw growing up. As they say, "Hindsight is 20/20."
Quote from: Lori Dee on April 28, 2025, 10:01:28 AMwas closer to five, I think.
Somewhere between four and six is the crucial age for us beginning to understand gender and you were lucky you got such a strong steer, Lori! So many of us just caught a reflection of it in dressing up as another sex, but had no idea what we were seeing in the mirror.
Quote from: TanyaG on April 28, 2025, 10:04:54 AMSomewhere between four and six is the crucial age for us beginning to understand gender and you were lucky you got such a strong steer, Lori! So many of us just caught a reflection of it in dressing up as another sex, but had no idea what we were seeing in the mirror.
In retrospect, I can recall times playing as a kid away from home, and the scenario (playing "house") required a female role. Everyone wanted the male role, so I "reluctantly" gave in to fill the female role. I felt more comfortable in that role. Decades later, my online gaming personas were female. Yet the decades of male scripting had a profound effect. When I was diagnosed with GD, I rejected it and the idea that it meant I was gay. But as I learned what it all meant, I began to connect the dots.
Even now, in this thread, I am reminded of some things that I had forgotten; another dot that gets connected to the whole. ;D
Quote from: Lori Dee on April 28, 2025, 10:13:34 AMEven now, in this thread, I am reminded of some things that I had forgotten; another dot that gets connected to the whole.
I like to think of it as the archeology of the mind. Hand me that shovel, darling :-)
Quote from: TanyaG on April 28, 2025, 09:47:57 AMWhich is great, if you don't have any issues, then there's no need to deal with them. But for people who do, therapy is really powerful, because a lot of us have a tendency to chain the dragons of our minds to the foot of our beds. Which is fine when the dragons are small, but they have a habit of not staying that way. Therapy is a gateway to allowing people to unchain their dragons, or at the very least, stop feeding them a high protein diet :-)
Yes, agreed. I think therapy is wise and useful for most people that have concerns or issues that need to be clarified.
I have had these helpful sessions.
Chrissy
I saw a presentation on Queer Aging and Gender Transitions Later in Life
Here are some slides from the presentation...
(https://i.imgur.com/5YIUkcm.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/iaWhpNa.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/5ffnWWn.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/FEafXi7.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/JFN3Xay.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/N2p6s1R.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/a3NpplD.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/kFDpxPX.png)
Quote from: Zoey Addisyn on April 28, 2025, 05:58:09 PMI saw a presentation on Queer Aging and Gender Transitions Later in Life
I believe this answer a lot of how I feel. This is why I say tomorrow is too late and there's no time to look back.
I regret not transitioning when I was younger. I've always known just too afraid to take that step.
I remember thinking, when I was first considering going out of the house wearing a skirt, long before I thought of myself as trans: yes, they could kill me, but if I hide inside my home -- my prison -- I might as well be dead anyway. And I could get run over by a bus tomorrow (or even today) even if I hide. At least if I go out in my skirt, I'd get a few days living as myself.
So nowadays I say: if they kill me, they kill me. But I won't cower and hide any more. (But I will be careful!)
(Actually, this is how I'd managed my life for a long time. Whenever I faced some scary step, I would say to myself, you have a choice. You can move forward. Or you can stay in your coffin and wait for someone to nail it shut. And my fear of being nailed up in a coffin has always been greater than my fear of the next step.
Quote from: TanyaG on April 28, 2025, 03:24:38 AMSo either AMAB people presenting as trans post 47 is a post 2014 phenomenon in the Netherlands at least, or something has changed. The question is what?
Good question, TanyaG. I would look first at the study: does 'presenting' infer GAS? (Cedars-Sinai study a few years ago described GV by the age of 4 and GD by 7 but subjects were limited to those who subsequently received GAS). Assuming 'presenting' is straightforward in its meaning, perhaps the norms, mores, and values differ significantly between the Netherlands and the US (or GB). Assuming cultural differences are not significant, then I am out of facile answers and must reach for intangibles: empathy--the times in this country are such that any honorable man feels compelled to assert he is a woman (like, if I remember correctly, the Dutch (speaking of the Netherlands) wore yellow stars in WWII regardless of religious affiliation). Or, some disparity between gender affirming care systems and reporting. But, assuming the accuracy of the Netherlands study regarding age of affirmation, in my own peculiar case, it was the fear I would die pretending I was someone I never had a right to pretend to be (as expressed in a subsequent post by Zoey). I'm not going to mention nanoplastics or quantum mechanics, but I am intrigued by the question: Why now? Unlike you, I do not have the credentials to offer an answer or even a conjecture. But I hope you find one; I would like to know 'why now?'.
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 28, 2025, 09:09:32 PMI would look first at the study: does 'presenting' infer GAS?
It's easy to miss it, but the numbers I quoted were specifically people who were started on HRT. About half the referrals for GAC in the Amsterdam Cohort Study either dropped out or didn't start on HRT, so those are the best figures we've got.
Quote from: Jessica 33 on April 28, 2025, 06:37:34 PMI regret not transitioning when I was younger. I've always known just too afraid to take that step.
Don't be too hard on yourself, because it's a rational fear and it isn't the case that everyone must transition. Better to do it at the right time for you than do it before you've got your head straight. Our circumstances are all different, so what's right for someone else isn't necessarily going to be right for you.
Quote from: TanyaG on April 29, 2025, 03:23:48 AMDon't be too hard on yourself, because it's a rational fear and it isn't the case that everyone must transition. Better to do it at the right time for you than do it before you've got your head straight. Our circumstances are all different, so what's right for someone else isn't necessarily going to be right for you.
The problem is it never goes away. I should be a female,I want to be female.Sometimes I can blot it out but it's always been there.The desire is stronger than ever.I know I would be happier living as female it's the collateral damage along the way ie family / relationships.
I've never told anyone I'm trans.Think my sisters suspect as in asking me to be bridesmaid and calling me girl/ bitch in jest
Incongruence is a birth condition which is with us for life. Our circumstances dictate how we handle it, and it seems the levels of incongruence vary from person to person, as well as at different times of their lives.
My awareness at 4 years old manifested in persistent dreams where I was a girl, and a strong desire to present that way, but my circumstances prevented this from happening. My dreams and urges (I started to realise they were not desires as I wished they would go away) persisted and by my teens I realised that my incongruence was something different to what I wanted for myself in life. Of course, in the 1960's I had no terminology for this.
I found ways to reduce and tolerate my incongruence, and pursue my life goals. These included having children and securing a life for my family. In this pursuit, I was crazy busy, and had no time for incongruence (Though it was still very much there). By midlife I was happy with the life I had created, and my circumstances allowed me to take steps to deal with my persistent incongruence in that my then spouse agreed that I could present as I needed at home, and change career to work with women. This worked really well for 2 decades.
From my late 40's, my T levels started to fall (though my levels were never high) and I avoided male aging effects of hair loss on my head and gain on my body. Through my 50's, I was diagnosed with hypogonadism, and I noticed genital atrophy. In this period, my dysphoria from incongruence increased. The agreement with my wife was that I never revealed my incongruence to anyone, or made any moves to transition, and I loved my life with her.
In my 60's, my dysphoria increased to bouts of depression, and finally to affecting my immune system, causing me to become seriously unwell. At 65 my doctor talked me into trying low dose Estrogen which worked to cure me from my illness, but, fearing my wife would leave me, and transition would cost me other loved ones, I stopped Estrogen (I never needed anti androgens). Of course, my illness returned, and my wife argued for me to re start Estrogen. I had a deep fear of losing those close to me, and fell into a deep depression for months, until I came out to my family.
Fortunately, everyone was supportive of my transition, so my depression left me, but after my genital surgery, so did my wife. In reflection, I wish I never had gender incongruence. It made my life miserable and cost me my soul mate. I realise it is a medical condition I was born with, and had to deal with all my life. I had realised it was not who I was, or my 'true self', and I realised my 'true self' independent of my incongruence. I have fully transitioned, and live a comfortable life, but I don't now and will never feel authentic in myself. The presentation I currently have is not who I truly am.
Hugs,
Allie
Thank you all for your replies! I'm reading them, and I'm starting to see that maybe nothing really changed in me 4 years ago. I just finally realized who I am. So many of your experiences echo in me. Yes, I too was very busy with life during my younger years. But, I was maybe too stubborn ( or stupid) to see the truth.
Quote from: Allie Jayne on April 29, 2025, 06:39:57 PMIt made my life miserable and cost me my soul mate.
Few losses are greater, Allie Jayne. I lost my soulmate a long, long time ago. I just wasn't 'man' enough to keep her. Like you, I would trade every feminine aspect of my life to be the 'man' she thought I was when we married. Now, I am determined to become the woman who was her best friend. As she was mine.
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 29, 2025, 08:05:04 PMFew losses are greater, Allie Jayne. I lost my soulmate a long, long time ago. I just wasn't 'man' enough to keep her. Like you, I would trade every feminine aspect of my life to be the 'man' she thought I was when we married. Now, I am determined to become the woman who was her best friend. As she was mine.
My second wife recognised that I was both male and female before we married and realised she needed both aspects of me in her life. She had her own challenges, and a lifetime of feeling inferior to deal with, and this is why she could not bear to be seen as married to a woman. For most of our marriage I was not able to fulfil my 'husbandly duties', but she was happy. Female or male was never important to me, I valued both aspects of my life. My need was to conceive and bear babies, but that could never happen. Incongruence and dysphoria was a scourge I desperately wanted to be rid of, and transition mostly accomplished that. I didn't need to be anything other than me, though that can be lonely at times.
Hugs,
Allie
Quote from: Jessica 33 on April 29, 2025, 04:32:32 PMThe problem is it never goes away. I should be a female,I want to be female.Sometimes I can blot it out but it's always been there.The desire is stronger than ever.I know I would be happier living as female it's the collateral damage along the way ie family / relationships.
It's clear that you've accepted you are trans and if you are comfortable with that in yourself (as in, if everyone else accepted it too, you would transition without question) then you need to think about how you are going to handle the next step.
You've already identified that, it's how to introduce it to your family, if I have this right? Or whether to tell your family? It sounds as if your dysphoria is strong, so a question you might ask yourself is 'Can I cope with this if I delay/don't start transitioning?'
If the answer to that question is no, then the next one might be, 'Who is the person, or persons in my family who are most likely to understand me if I tell them first?' If that's your sisters, then one way of introducing the subject is something along the lines of 'Were you joking about me being a bridesmaid or not, because if you weren't...'
Quote from: Allie Jayne on April 29, 2025, 06:39:57 PMI had realised it was not who I was, or my 'true self', and I realised my 'true self' independent of my incongruence. I have fully transitioned, and live a comfortable life, but I don't now and will never feel authentic in myself. The presentation I currently have is not who I truly am.
That is super honest, Allie Jayne. Wow. Few people here are brave enough to write something like that so massive respect.
In a lot of respects you don't sound very different to me, except I always had priorities that led me to delay transitioning. This sounds perverse, but one of them was to continue the hunt through my mind for what my transness was, with the help of others like my poor analyst, and I was worried that if I transitioned I might lose the leads we had. In the end I didn't transition and the dig into my mind established I was non-binary, which to be fair, was something that had been staring us in the face but we'd been ignoring because we were looking for answers somewhere else.
So, lots of hugs Allie, you always come across as such a nice person, but I'll score a special affection for you over that post.
Quote from: Camille58S on April 29, 2025, 07:54:34 PMThank you all for your replies! I'm reading them, and I'm starting to see that maybe nothing really changed in me 4 years ago. I just finally realized who I am. So many of your experiences echo in me. Yes, I too was very busy with life during my younger years. But, I was maybe too stubborn ( or stupid) to see the truth.
In many of us, there's a pause between suspecting we are trans and acceptance and I think it has to be gone through. In a way, it's like a bereavement, the loss being the gender we were brought up in. Even though we didn't like it, it connected us with people in intricate ways that we realise we will now have to disentangle, or maybe even lose.
Quote from: TanyaG on April 30, 2025, 03:09:01 AMIt's clear that you've accepted you are trans and if you are comfortable with that in yourself (as in, if everyone else accepted it too, you would transition without question) then you need to think about how you are going to handle the next step.
You've already identified that, it's how to introduce it to your family, if I have this right? Or whether to tell your family? It sounds as if your dysphoria is strong, so a question you might ask yourself is 'Can I cope with this if I delay/don't start transitioning?'
If the answer to that question is no, then the next one might be, 'Who is the person, or persons in my family who are most likely to understand me if I tell them first?' If that's your sisters, then one way of introducing the subject is something along the lines of 'Were you joking about me being a bridesmaid or not, because if you weren't...'
I suppose I'm at a crossroads. I've gotten this far do I suffer on or do I go for it.Even joining the forum has helped me as just a place to share thoughts and feelings . I wish I had been braver earlier in life it would have been easier
Quote from: Jessica 33 on April 30, 2025, 04:28:22 AMI suppose I'm at a crossroads. I've gotten this far do I suffer on or do I go for it.Even joining the forum has helped me as just a place to share thoughts and feelings . I wish I had been braver earlier in life it would have been easier
Sometimes, hard though it may seem, it's better to take a little time to focus on how important things are to you when you're faced with a choice like you are. Don't regret the decisions you took when you were younger because you took them knowing what you knew then and now is a different time.
So perhaps it's worth setting up some mental scales and working out the weight of what's on each side?
So, for example, you could use the regret you feel about not having made a decision earlier to work out the weight of what's pushing your dysphoria. What exactly is it you regret not doing and what problems do you think having made it differently would it have solved?
Lots of hugs, BTW.
Quote from: TanyaG on April 30, 2025, 05:56:02 AMSometimes, hard though it may seem, it's better to take a little time to focus on how important things are to you when you're faced with a choice like you are. Don't regret the decisions you took when you were younger because you took them knowing what you knew then and now is a different time.
So perhaps it's worth setting up some mental scales and working out the weight of what's on each side?
So, for example, you could use the regret you feel about not having made a decision earlier to work out the weight of what's pushing your dysphoria. What exactly is it you regret not doing and what problems do you think having made it differently would it have Quote from: TanyaG on April 30, 2025, 05:56:02 AMSometimes, hard though it may seem, it's better to take a little time to focus on how important things are to you when you're faced with a choice like you are. Don't regret the decisions you took when you were younger because you took them knowing what you knew then and now is a different time.
So perhaps it's worth setting up some mental scales and working out the weight of what's on each side?
So, for example, you could use the regret you feel about not having made a decision earlier to work out the weight of what's pushing your dysphoria. What exactly is it you regret not doing and what problems do you think having made it differently would it have solved?
Lots of hugs, BTW.
Getting married and having kids. I don't regret that but it certainly makes any decision a lot harder now. I would hurt so many people now where if I'd been single it would have been an easy decision.
Quote from: Jessica 33 on April 30, 2025, 07:25:10 AMGetting married and having kids. I don't regret that but it certainly makes any decision a lot harder now. I would hurt so many people now where if I'd been single it would have been an easy decision.
Okay, so reframe that, you don't regret having kids. Let's just say they accept you being trans, in which case being trans won't hurt them, will it? It's worth stepping through this.
Children are resilient. Older children may take a bit of effort to come on board, but kindness will win them over. Younger kids will just be accepting no questions ask, as long as you act normally.