I have had a lot of people ask me if I was.
My response has been that If I was they would have found out in my appendex surgery (which was major due to rupture not minor)
The answer really is: I don't know.
My parrents certainly have never said anyting, and they certainly would have if they knew.
I have wondered about chromozones, etc. and have seriously been considering finding a way to find out.
Does anyone know of a way? like a bloodtest?
Thanks.
Sara
The blood test for chromosomes is called a karyotype. However a blood karyotype usually suffers from under-sampling and is at best, a guess (ie they don't test enough cells to rule out mosaicism, or chimerism).
A barrbody test is the second one, however it won't tell you precisely the amount of chromosomes or which exactly they are - it will only tell you if you have an inactivated X chromosome (and thus, more than one, XXY would, for example).
A FISH test, is the most precise for chromosome. Fluorescent in situ hybridization. This is more precise than a blood karyotype.
QuoteFISH (Fluorescent in situ hybridization) is a cytogenetic technique that can be used to detect and localize the presence or absence of specific DNA sequences on chromosomes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_in_situ_hybridization
Of course, chromosomes, and phenotype (genitals) are not the only marker of intersex. Hormone levels (ie XXY or Klinefelter), their production (ie CAH - Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia) and their receptivity (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome). Gonads (ovaries, testes, ovotestis) are also a measure of this, someone with chimerism can have more than a pair of gonads.
And, for certain, to get those tests, either you have the money to get them, or a doctor willing to order them...many doctors are quick to dismiss possibilities when they don't see genital ambiguity or obvious phenotype/genotype mismatch (XY female conditions for example).
Hello Sarah,
They run a variety of tests on you to check for IS. I had a saliva test, several blood tests, x-rays and an MRI done on me. I was poked so much I was afraid to drink for fear it would just seep out through the holes!! lol. The saliva test was for hormone levels, the MRI was to see what organs etc I have. After they determined my organs the blood tests were ordered as was my x ray. I think most of that was to check everything health wise. The thing is my mind had my ISism supressed so we didn't really know what was going on. I just realized I was TS, or so we thought.My voice started changing overnight and my breasts started growing so off to the doc I went. They decided to test my hormone levels through my saliva and were shocked to find the levels they did - mostly estrogen and hardly androgen. In order to find out why my body was doing this they ordered an MRI to see if one of my organs was misfiring. That's when they discovered I had a uterus, ine testi and one ovary, milk glands (or whatever they are called) and everything was healthy. I also found out what that partial opening is I have down below. It's amazing really that my mind was able to supress so much, but it did. Good luck,
Kim :angel:
if theres really no sign, its normally very unlikely.... why do you WANT to be intersex? you realise how FEW are?
R :police:
I don't think she's asking to be intersexed, just seeking answers to her being. I always felt something was different about me from other people before even realizing I was TS. Embracing my being TS simmered that only a bit because as I read post after post after post from TS' here on this site I still felt different somehow. I now realize why, I am IS, and to the max as someone said to me one time. My body actually is female with a penis. Now I feel in control and finally feel I fit in, even here. I know I am different but now know why. As one doctor told me, to deny one's self is to deny that person's existence in the world, and that person becomes prone to suicide. So yes, if Sarah has questions she should find her answers so she can embrace her true self and live.
Kim :angel:
Quote from: Kim on January 19, 2008, 01:03:41 PM
I don't think she's asking to be intersexed, just seeking answers to her being. I always felt something was different about me from other people before even realizing I was TS. Embracing my being TS simmered that only a bit because as I read post after post after post from TS' here on this site I still felt different somehow. I now realize why, I am IS, and to the max as someone said to me one time. My body actually is female with a penis. Now I feel in control and finally feel I fit in, even here. I know I am different but now know why. As one doctor told me, to deny one's self is to deny that person's existence in the world, and that person becomes prone to suicide. So yes, if Sarah has questions she should find her answers so she can embrace her true self and live.
Kim :angel:
I can relate to that differentness feeling, but I'm not so sure it's my being IS that is at the root. I'm certainly a weird girl in any case. I make a weird boy, and a weird girl, though I fit in and am seen as 'obviously in my place' as a girl (definitely 100x more than the reverse). It's not just my feminity, or masculinity...but my whole way of thinking, seems alien to most people's ways of thinking.
I backed out of debates (in real life, like at school) because I've heard it time and time again that my arguments were too weird / off topic / unconventional when to me they were perfectly logical, and I even could prove those arguments or hypothesis as being valid, but no one listened. I was always alone.
Transsexuals see being intersexed as some holy grail... some, excuse for being female or male or whatever....
stop trying to prove things and live your life, youll be a LOT happyer when you quit asking why...
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on January 19, 2008, 02:08:37 PM
Transsexuals see being intersexed as some holy grail... some, excuse for being female or male or whatever....
stop trying to prove things and live your life, youll be a LOT happyer when you quit asking why...
R :police:
I need no excuse for being who I am. Like I said in the other thread, my family mostly accepts me with no issue, and intersex wouldn't solve anything in that - or any other - regard, for me.
I live with my mother and two youngest brothers, all of which recognize me as a bonafide girl, even if they don't deny my past (neither do I). I have mother-daughter talks and shopping trips sometimes, and have bonded closer to my mother since transitioning. My brothers treat me as their sister, and never slip in name or pronoun. My father and his girlfriend are also the same. I regret nothing there.
Being intersex would not facilitate my name change, or gender change, or surgery approval, or anything. It would (to know, either way), however, put my mind at ease. Knowing the facts of my birth, of my body, besides being interesting knowledge in itself, is comforting. And can be useful in preventing medical conditions from arising from simple ignorance.
Transsexual, or intersex, does not affect my passability (well, the fact that they know or not in itself, anyway), or how others treat me - most people don't even know what intersex is, anyway. I don't pursue full stealth, because however painful and repressed my past is, it existed - I could not 'make one up'. I cannot lie (no need to take my word, this is just saying that making up a story is too hard for my personal morals).
Thanks for the responses.
Soes anyone know about how much some of this would cost.
Maybe just some of the simplerer tests?
[censored! too much information! Yaaaaaaaaaa! Nooooooooo! Groossss! *************** **********]
(iee! to much information.)
I also have very little difficulty speaking with a female voice and I can sing very high pictched songs on key with no difficulty.
In any case I have always kinda wondered, and I keep getting people asking me if I was.
I just don't know, and it seems like its really easy for people not to know, so..
I don't know if it's somthing I should check or not. I kinda think I should.
Sara
Quote from: Sarah on January 19, 2008, 07:57:20 PM
Thanks for the responses.
Soes anyone know about how much some of this would cost.
Maybe just some of the simplerer tests?
The thing is (and this is sorta wierd) I can feel some sort of opening underneath the skin in between my anus and gennitals.
(iee! to much information.)
I also have very little difficulty speaking with a female voice and I can sing very high pictched songs on key with no difficulty.
In any case I have always kinda wondered, and I keep getting people asking me if I was.
I just don't know, and it seems like its really easy for people not to know, so..
I don't know if it's somthing I should check or not. I kinda think I should.
Sara
Test costs vary. In Canada its free, in the US I heard something like 500-1000$ if not covered.
The opening you mention is something every guy has, called a pseudo-vagina, I think. It's normal. But wether there is a 'real' vagina underneath, or not, would normally not be known by feeling it, but by a MRI.
If you can sing at all, your voice is more flexible than most. I've never sung, and my voice is androgynous (ie it doesn't out me, but it might sound a bit lower than average, definitely not bass), if I was able to sing, I could raise my pitch to contr-alto easily, maybe even soprano (I'm not that far). I've not done anything to my voice since going full-time. I speak softly...but I always did.
You can check things out if you want, but I suggest not having expectations as to the results. And yes, most people don't know what qualifies as intersex, who is intersex, who isn't - and 'most' includes doctors, shrinks, therapists, endocrinologists...
Sara (feels like talking to myself :P)
Founding out if one is IS, especially if its one of the less extreme forms, that's hard to
determine is a bit pointless, I feel. But, if you need to know, well who I am too argue.
Besides my height, all my measures are inside or at the lower end of the "female" range.
But, I don't know if would change anything if I really knew anything?
you do realise how much karylotype tests are on US insurance?
talking 2k
R
Yeah... I'd like to get the tests done, just to know, but for now I've got more pressing money concerns (both a good thing and a bad thing).
Yet another uninsured American,
Lia
I've been told by my therapist that it usually reveals itself during childhood. If you are an adult and haven't had any reason to suspect you are IS other than the fact that you are TS, chances are you are not IS.
quite right... if you were, youd know....
transsexuals seem to love looking and get majorly dissapointed when they find thier not.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on January 19, 2008, 11:29:08 PM
quite right... if you were, youd know....
I just don't think it's that simple. Of course, if you're a 12-year-old boy who starts hemorrhaging from a period without an exit, then you'd find out. But there are plenty of IS conditions that aren't 100% obvious. Most AIS women never find out they're XY because there's nothing, phenotypically speaking, downright obvious about it. After all, lots of IS conditions start out not with certain knowledge but a suspicion.
But yes, lots of us (TS) wish that we were IS because deep down we need the validation of science. Just the baggage of the modern era and empiricism.
Lia
i feel transsexuality is a neurological IS condition anyway.... but hey... they want proof, let them go chase thier white whale....
R :police:
Rachael, Genovais's right, some AIS find out when after a few year of no period they
get inspected and oops! That must come as a shock! There's plenty others
where it affects small things but there's plenty of variance in humans beings
that can mask IS conditions.
As for TS's being IS. Its not in the phenotype, but what's IS that having the wrong gendered body.
Its a biggest IS fullup ever. I'd prefer being AIS if I have to choose my problems :-).
i remember a case where a girl doing a genetics masters found out she was IS after they tested thier own DNA in a labclass.... '46xy? but im?' WOOPS!
R
Quote from: Rachael on January 20, 2008, 01:34:45 AM
i remember a case where a girl doing a genetics masters found out she was IS after they tested thier own DNA in a labclass.... '46xy? but im?' WOOPS!
R
I knew a genetic girl some years ago who was intersexed but she looked totally feminine and lovely. She had male chromosones and I said at the time I thought I was intersexed as well.
how is she a genetic girl then ? :P ( i hate transfolk abusing that word when sometimes its utterly useless, ie, shes not a genetic female, and i am, only she was born female, i wasnt... irony eh?)
R >:D
A huge part of going to doctors for a diagnosis is that the area hasn't been fully looked into yet. Thus, sometimes patients actually have to educate the doctors on this stuff. It is hard to find two doctors who agree on what is intersex and what is not. Some don't even believe Klinefelter's or AIS is intersex!!
I found this out painfully after spending 6 months with a well known Southern Ca endo, who kept telling me "I don't see anything intersex in you" (look again at my picture...huh?) He told me I had a body image problem and suggested I see a shrink. I was at the doctor because my therapist had told me " I can't honestly diagnose you TS according to the DSM because I think you are intersexed".
Even though doctors tend to consider IS to be non-life threatening, there are issues with gonads becoming diseased and low hormone levels causing health problems.
So... if you think you are, get it checked out. I was one of the ones who always suspected I was, but got kicked out the door (without a blood test or any other examination) as a "gynecomastic transsexual". I finally had had enough and pressed for a hormone test, and that's when the fireworks started. The doctor started saying "THIS DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE, How does your penis look so normal with these kinds of estrogen levels?, how did you have kids?", Etc. To make a long story short, they weren't kicking me out the door any more.
My best advice to you is get your hormones checked first, then if there is a reason, go for the karotype, then go from there. A hormone test is relatively cheap. (compared to a karotype). Plus, a karotype really means nothing if you are mosaic, chimeric, or a true hermapohrodite. a huge percentage of true hermaphrodites are completely xy,( and yes some of them have normal penises, and have fathered children) so are Klinefelter's, AIS, and persistent mullerian duct syndrome, not to mention the rest of the conditions.
BUT... before you spend a dime, find out what the examining doctors views are of what actually constitutes an intersex condition. After 6 months of seeing my doctor and hearing "no intersex, get a shrink", I found out that the only condition he considers intersex is ambiuous genitalia.
I changed doctors and got a completely different diagnosis.
See what I mean, doctors are just people too.
Good luck anyway. And trust me, having an intersex diagnosis will not make biggots be kind. They will only say things like "even if you have male and female parts, we don't want anything to do with "her", and kick you to the curb just the same. The best thing to do is weed the biggots out of your life.
Hugs to you.
Michelle F
An AIS has a male DNA and looks like a ultrafeminine women,
so the woomb on they devellopped as women.
I never heard of a FTM AIS, and its a good thing because there
would be no solution.
They have no sensitivity to androgens so even if they where given
androgens it would be useless.
Thanks Michelle!
That's very helpful!
[hugs]
Sara
Quote from: Keira on January 20, 2008, 06:24:46 PM
An AIS has a male DNA and looks like a ultrafeminine women,
so the woomb on they devellopped as women.
I never heard of a FTM AIS, and its a good thing because there
would be no solution.
They have no sensitivity to androgens so even if they where given
androgens it would be useless.
You're speaking of Complete AIS and high-level Partial AIS on the Quigley scale - that is, not grade 1 and 2, where there is little to no genital ambiguity and the body looks male at birth. The hint to AIS is having a lot of androgens and no response (or a low response) to them.
Also, most AIS women, even Complete AIS, don't have an uterus, because of the presence of Mullerian-Inhibiting Hormones. The possibility to have one would be when combined with Persistent Mullerian Duct Syndrome, or an entirely different condition, or combined with chimerism or mosaicism.
PAIS grade 1-2 is hard to diagnose, but it exists.
To Sara,
Your welcome and many hugs back. Just get on with life. I don't think they have yet discovered everything there is to discover. I do hope that someday people will look back on us and say "can you believe that the medical professionals of the day didn't have any answers and let those people suffer so badly?"
about the only thing that's worse is the way non-medical people can treat us too!
Chelle
Posted on: January 20, 2008, 07:50:36 PM
To Schala,
Let's remember Sweyer's syndrome too, not to mention whatever the heck they come up with next year that "didn't exist" before that.
All that really matters is that this stuff can seriously hamper our ability to function socially, emotionally and can therefore be medically defined as a disability. (If you don't beleive me look up the medical defenition of disability.
We have the right as human beings to do whatever it takes to allow us to reach our full potential, even if that means changing the way other people see us. It's better than walking with a limp, when there are treatments that can correct us.
And before someone blasts me for the comments about the DSM, there IS a category for those who are intersexed and are still considered trans. But what I meant is that it isn't in the formal definition of transsexualism. I found this quote that explains it better.
"The current edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has five criteria that must be met before a diagnosis of gender identity disorder (302.85) can be given:[2]
1. There must be evidence of a strong and persistent cross-gender identification.
2. This cross-gender identification must not merely be a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex.
3. There must also be evidence of persistent discomfort about one's assigned sex or a sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex.
4. The individual must not have a concurrent physical intersex condition (e.g., androgen insensitivity syndrome or congenital adrenal hyperplasia).
5. There must be evidence of clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
The DSM-IV also provides a code for gender disorders that did not fall into these criteria. This diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (GIDNOS, 302.6) is similar to other "NOS" diagnoses, and can be given for, for example:[3]
1. Intersex conditions (e.g., androgen insensitivity syndrome or congenital adrenal hyperplasia) and accompanying gender dysphoria
2. Transient, stress-related cross-dressing behavior
3. Persistent preoccupation with castration or penectomy without a desire to acquire the sex characteristics of the other sex, which is known as skoptic syndrome"
hope that clears up any misconceptions before they begin
Hugs
Chelle
Well that's interesting.
And we pay shrinks hundreds of dollars an hour for that?
I can do that.
It's a checklist.
All you have to do is ask the interviewie competent questions with regard to those areas on the checklist and there! Presto! you have a diagnosis.
What crap. They have to interview us for three months in the US and for like years in the UK? What fraud. That is crap. That is some kind of money making scheme if ever I heard one.
Thanks a Lot for posting that.
I didn't know that.
That is realy rediculous.
I can't believe they charge that much for somthing like that.
'precieate it.
That was realy informative.
Thank you. So much. For that and all your other help!
Sara
its not just a checklist.... you realise what harm the trans community does to the diagnosis process? telling people how to get past therapists, they need longer to talk to paitents to satisfy themselves that they are dealing with true feelings, not whim, and fantisy... they take a long time because it is THIER ass on the line if they get it wrong...
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on January 21, 2008, 02:35:42 AM
its not just a checklist.... you realise what harm the trans community does to the diagnosis process? telling people how to get past therapists, they need longer to talk to paitents to satisfy themselves that they are dealing with true feelings, not whim, and fantisy... they take a long time because it is THIER ass on the line if they get it wrong...
R :police:
You're suggesting that CAMH's 1 year RLE for hormones and NHS extremely deficient systems are bad because they let people off easy, or because they 'really' want to know if their patients are not in fantasy...or maybe they reduce waiting lists faster by suicide and natural deaths than by actually doing their job.
well i was going on about therapists with a genunine interest in getting it right, ie, private ones! :P
the NHS really doesnt care.... sadly.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on January 21, 2008, 03:32:05 AM
well i was going on about therapists with a genunine interest in getting it right, ie, private ones! :P
the NHS really doesnt care.... sadly.
R :police:
I agree and NHS gender Psychiatrists would not have an interest in you if they knew you were Intersexed. They would say you are no longer under their protocol and are not transsexual, therefor it's not their business and it means you could get expelled from their clinic. To access my own genetic testing I had to go and plead with various people outside of the NHS gender clinic system.
So here is something, what about periods? I was told that having some kind of 'period' might be a sign of IS. That and breast growth. However, I know that gynomastia is a way for male children to develop breasts.
I grew up with 'periods'. I had once a month wild mood swings and sudden depression. Once a year it got REAL bad. I also had slight breast growth long before HRT, and a low T count. I think 300 is bottom for males, I had 333 when I was tested prior to HRT.
*Shrugs* Not sure I would want to know, but can these be possible signs of IS?
300 is averageish iirc.... and gynocamasita IS the only way for males to get breasts!
periods are a grey area, they can be phantom, or other things, and most of the period PAIN and feelings are regarding the uterus lining... if you got bad pains, for years, youd likely be dead from hemeraging....
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 01:58:17 AM
300 is averageish iirc.... and gynocamasita IS the only way for males to get breasts!
periods are a grey area, they can be phantom, or other things, and most of the period PAIN and feelings are regarding the uterus lining... if you got bad pains, for years, youd likely be dead from hemeraging....
R >:D
No pain, but did get bloated feelings. But I still get these periods, but they are more pronounced now.
As for gynocamastia, usually the breasts go away on their own. Mine did not.
im not going to say you are imagining it, but the bloating is part of the uterus lining separating, and you would be permanently bloated, as the blood has nowhere to go..., if youve had them as long as you claim.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 03:46:01 AM
im not going to say you are imagining it, but the bloating is part of the uterus lining separating, and you would be permanently bloated, as the blood has nowhere to go..., if youve had them as long as you claim.
R :police:
...Well since i'm not septic, then I doubt that is it. Guess the easiest thing to do is just talk to my doc and see what he thinks.
You look for justification because you want to believe that it's not just you and your heart begin silly. This is because so many make out TS is something made up.
You want to find definitive proof and objectification for the pain you suffer.
I'd look at my genome but as a studying biologist I'm pretty sure I wouldn't find what I was looking for. There might or might not be a TS Gene... If it dose exist we don't know where it is.
Only proof for such a gene is in the implication that TS Traits have been observed in a few cases to be permissible down generations. And that's vague.
Quote from: pebbles on February 04, 2008, 08:40:33 AM
You look for justification because you want to believe that it's not just you and your heart begin silly. This is because so many make out TS is something made up.
You want to find definitive proof and objectification for the pain you suffer.
I'd look at my genome but as a studying biologist I'm pretty sure I wouldn't find what I was looking for. There might or might not be a TS Gene... If it dose exist we don't know where it is.
Only proof for such a gene is in the implication that TS Traits have been observed in a few cases to be permissible down generations. And that's vague.
The genetic possibility, is that it always existed through all time periods (since humans came to, just like homosexuality.
and gynecomastia is a stigmatizing terms used for "female-type" breast growth in a phenotypic or legal male - I just call it that: breast growth
And breast growth, infertility, periods, surely may be signs of IS (rather obvious one for the breasts), but far from the only signs. It is because doctors don't bother even trying to diagnose unless it's obvious. Otherwise they'll deny it like their life depended on it. If you really really want to know, you need to find the right doctor, and to know a damn lot (or research it) about your symptoms and tests. They generally won't do that for you. Sometimes out of ignorance, many times out of dismissal and denial.
There are false-positives, yes, but to dismiss all as false-positive ultimately hurts the real cases. Like DV shelters (and society, courts, police forces, society in general) dismiss the possibility of male victims or female on male violence.
stigmatizing? um, its a medical term, female breast growth... men while they maintain the same ability to grow the structure that is the mamary gland, and maintain it undeveloped, males being a mutation of female genetically, hence the nipples... amongst other things. so its hardly a stigma... its a fact.
Men dont have breasts
breasts are a female thing to have
so gynocamastia is female growth on a male, simple as, i cant see anything hurtful or offensive, most people dont even care...
The medical language is latin, thats simply descriptive of the condition.
why the drama?
Its funny... my gp was only too willing to give me a Karyotype test he was stumped by my abnormally low testosterone, so i suggested the test, he just went 'yeah ok' and ran it... *shrugs*
R >:D
My doc suggested a karyotype when he 'decided' I looked a bit XXY in his eyes (a generalist). I didn't suggest it to him, and in fact researched intersex after that.
The result came back, as tested on 2 cells (a very low sample size), 46,XY. Not really surprising (as I didn't think I was XXY, besides the lack of development I don't fit many of its criterias).
I mentioned AIS and you know what he said? You can't be intersex, since you have XY chromosomes (who is affected by AIS you think?). I pushed a bit more, and he went about how my having a "female soul" is what made me undeveloped and feminine-looking. You know, that's real scientific.
Most other docs I saw were almost unanymous - if you don't have very small testes (like XXY), or big breast growth prior to HRT (and even then...some deny it), they'll think you're delusional in a lot of cases...how is that supposed to help?
medical profession is based in fact, and most doctors know ->-bleeped-<-s will do anything to prove thier intersexed... another sad fact.
R >:D
... because being physically intersexed feels much better than having a mental disorder. Which, sadly, is the alternative as far as diagnosis is concerned.
Nfr
its not a mental disorder anywhere but the US....
R >:D
Not supposed to be, anyway. :P But yes, you are right. Still, it is easier to accept something that has a clear physical cause than something that is not (yet) that well understood.
Nfr
Oh yeah random point I worked out... If Transsexuallity is due to some kind of androgen insensitivity like mild AIS then theoretically it's imposable for a female individual with acute(Or total) AIS to be FTM ts... Not not that they could transition even if they were... as there body wouldn't respond at all to HRT.
A simple observational study could prove if this is or isn't the case comparing a sample of acute AIS individuals and seeing if the numbers of transsexuals within said group and if it correlates to a similar amount in a random control sample of the background population. There can be some differences such as AIS FTM individuals who would be TS but they must be "statistically insignificant." for the test to be valid.
Problem with this experiment and method of proving if TS is associated with an intersex condition like this. Is that both conditions are exceedingly rare. And I did the maths there simply isn't enough people on earth to make the test valid or accurately compare the groups. The sample size required would be massive to see such a pairing of conditions.
There is insane logistics in getting accurate observational methods... And I doubt there is enough people on the planet to fill the sample groups.
its hardly related to just ais....
as a fair few transwomen have no problem whatsoever breaking down testosterone...
more a general neurological mapping issue...
R >:D
Ya know.... how difficult and expensive it is to actually test DNA... and how reluctant some fundies are to accept science.
Yet they'll be first on the line to tell you that you have XY chromos and therefore are male.
I know that this is a bit off topic... but the discussion just brought this thought to my mind.
I believe that there is something different about us who are otherwise normal in most respects. It may very well be in the DNA. A couple of studies have linked it to a different form of brain development. So, in this respect, IS might be used as a generic blanket term.
Yes, it is a holy grail for some of us. I had a dream recently where I was hospitalized for ovarian cancer and my family came to the hospital begging forgiveness as I lay on my death bead. It was the ultimate justification. But I DO NOT WANT to die of ovarian cancer to have proven myself. I feel that I have lived a good and happy life over the past couple of decades. I have proven myself. Those who fail to recognize it would probably not accept any scientific evidence otherwise.
Cindi
The FtM portion would probably be of CAH, not AIS.
Also the mild version of AIS is defined broadly enough to incorporate phenotypically male individuals who have hypospadias, to otherwise-normal-males who are idiopathically infertile (especially when young).
The fact is, the prevalence of mild AIS is not examined, it's considered either lower or higher than the average prevalence of AIS as a whole, but there's no way to know because people are not generally tested for Mild AIS like they are for Complete AIS (and the figure does come from the more-complete variations of AIS, the 1/20000).
I only know of one. A chromosomal check. But these folks can tell you better:
http://www.isna.org/
schala: CAH is by no means restricted to f2m or women, same that ais isnt resticted to 'males'
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on February 17, 2008, 05:08:07 AM
schala: CAH is by no means restricted to f2m or women, same that ais isnt resticted to 'males'
R :police:
a CAH-affected male is not considered intersex per se (he has more testosterone than he would normally have)
an AIS affected phenotypic woman is only in the more complete variations, but it's also (debatably) the same condition
I don't think it stands to reason to say that a Complete AIS woman trying to transition to male is going to be even remotely prevalent, in order to prove that a good portion of lower-grade AIS do transition to female. The proportion I heard of is 5-10% of AIS transitioning to female, I don't know the figure for transition to male, if there is any.
so what does ais and cah have to do with transitioning?
there is no link between being intersexed and transitioning.... or trans and intersex yet...?
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on February 18, 2008, 05:36:33 AM
so what does ais and cah have to do with transitioning?
there is no link between being intersexed and transitioning.... or trans and intersex yet...?
R >:D
5-10% of those assigned male who have AIS transition to female
estimates of 0.003 to 0.1% of those assigned male who supposedly don't have AIS transition to female
I think it's safe to say that it suggests a correlation between lack of testosterone sensitivity (even if partial) promotes a higher proportion of transition. Even when controlling for other factors, the proportion is pretty high.
do we have a true figure for what percentage of 'males' are trans anyway?
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on February 18, 2008, 12:45:33 PM
do we have a true figure for what percentage of 'males' are trans anyway?
R >:D
No we dont, but its nowhere near 5-10%, I can tell you that much.
kk, I have a quick question... being IS can lead to a miriad of diffrent and potentialy fatal health problems... who WANTS to be IS... its more of a curse than a blessing...
Oh, and if you have bioligical children of your own, you are most likely not intersexed <atleast the physical conditions we know of>
Understanding what and why people think the things they do is something people make a living off of. I don't understand why anyone would want to be IS either, for me it has created more problems then it has solved. And it has its own array of health issues as Lynn said but mental issues as well, and your still left trying to find out where you fit into our gender role society. Seems to me this holy grail should be to just be born without having to deal with all this nonsense. I suppose that trying to find out if your IS or not is part of trying to figure out who you are and why things are the way they are for that person. Knowing is good but what you do with the knowledge is better, you shouldn't need to justify feeling the way you do, being IS does not do it. What you feel is who you are, and while finding where you belong is ok .... something I have been trying to do myself, It doesn't change who you are.
Too bad this is not a final fantasy game Lynn, you could fight like 200 battles and the curse would be lifted and we would be the ultimate weapons :-D LOL
~Rachel~
QuoteOh, and if you have bioligical children of your own, you are most likely not intersexed <atleast the physical conditions we know of>
I don't know,people seem to follow what experts say. I don't and I am living proof that they aren't always right. And I know of another IS in BC I talk to a lot who has children with her wife too. My doctor just shrugs and says exactly what I feel, nobody knows what God has planned and nobody can stop it. And when I think of it, most times God and these so called experts seem to disagree more than politicians do. I don't follow these experts findings.
OK ok, here's one - experts found in a study that 1 in 5 people snore. In a seperate unrelated study several months later these same scientists found that 4 in 5 people suffer from insomnia but can't find a reason for it!! LOL A little joke I found in Reader's Digest but it kind of shows I am not the only one that knows better.
Kim :angel:
I am gonna have to read up on this, I cant have kids myself but I wish I could. I suppose there is still alot we do not know about our own bodies. But Lynn did say "most likely" so I take it to mean that it can happen.
~Rachel~
Quote from: LynnER on February 18, 2008, 04:44:21 PM
kk, I have a quick question... being IS can lead to a miriad of diffrent and potentialy fatal health problems... who WANTS to be IS... its more of a curse than a blessing...
Oh, and if you have bioligical children of your own, you are most likely not intersexed <atleast the physical conditions we know of>
Most likely true yes, but not absolutely.
There are XXY males who have fathered children, though rare, and some rarer conditions can result in unexpected things, so much so that the doctors don't know which condition it is.
Quote from: Schala on February 19, 2008, 03:28:23 PM
Quote from: LynnER on February 18, 2008, 04:44:21 PM
kk, I have a quick question... being IS can lead to a miriad of diffrent and potentialy fatal health problems... who WANTS to be IS... its more of a curse than a blessing...
Oh, and if you have bioligical children of your own, you are most likely not intersexed <atleast the physical conditions we know of>
Most likely true yes, but not absolutely.
There are XXY males who have fathered children, though rare, and some rarer conditions can result in unexpected things, so much so that the doctors don't know which condition it is.
I didnt say having biological children was impossable, its highly improbable when dealing with the IS condiitions we currently know about...
There are allways those shadow conditions that noone can quite see or figure out... and there are many undiscovered teritories in human biology... Im just speaking generaly...
KK, now Im frustrated... it seems everyone gets over defensive when you speak in generalities... do you do this in real life too? I used to get beat up just for being TOO literal about things.... GODS!!!!
/me sighs
Quote from: LynnER on February 19, 2008, 05:41:44 PM
Quote from: Schala on February 19, 2008, 03:28:23 PM
Quote from: LynnER on February 18, 2008, 04:44:21 PM
kk, I have a quick question... being IS can lead to a miriad of diffrent and potentialy fatal health problems... who WANTS to be IS... its more of a curse than a blessing...
Oh, and if you have bioligical children of your own, you are most likely not intersexed <atleast the physical conditions we know of>
Most likely true yes, but not absolutely.
There are XXY males who have fathered children, though rare, and some rarer conditions can result in unexpected things, so much so that the doctors don't know which condition it is.
I didnt say having biological children was impossable, its highly improbable when dealing with the IS condiitions we currently know about...
There are allways those shadow conditions that noone can quite see or figure out... and there are many undiscovered teritories in human biology... Im just speaking generaly...
KK, now Im frustrated... it seems everyone gets over defensive when you speak in generalities... do you do this in real life too? I used to get beat up just for being TOO literal about things.... GODS!!!!
/me sighs
I seen what you said for that. But what are you trying to do take everyones fun away :-P
*hides in another room*
Maybe the changes are just part of our evolution or something, who knows.
~Rachel~
Why take it as defensiveness? I mentioned it for clarification purposes.
If someone says something I find is incomplete or erroneous, or makes something that could be construed as a blanket assumption, and I know otherwise, I may provide information. I may also add complimentary information not previously uttered, so as to make the subject wider and more comprehensible. There is no emotion in my debating.
If I make use of my emotion, I usually sound rather depressed, so I rather not. I sound more optimist in debate because I'm a naive ideologue, not because I'm cheerful or angry.
Quote from: Rachael on February 06, 2008, 05:53:48 AM
its not a mental disorder anywhere but the US....
R >:D
Try telling that to Charing Cross....or as the are othewise known...'West London Mental Health'.....I think there's a clue in there somewhere?..
there is no such think as a sane psychiatrist.... that would defy the laws of physics.
R >:D
Is anyone really sane for that matter??
~Rachel~
Quote from: drkprincess on February 25, 2008, 09:02:26 PM
Is anyone really sane for that matter??
~Rachel~
to answer you question honestly ~Rachel~ NO !! :laugh: :laugh:
Yeah, I give up on trying to find mine....
~Rachel~
Quote from: Rachael on February 25, 2008, 02:06:16 PM
there is no such think as a sane psychiatrist.... that would defy the laws of physics.
R >:D
psychiatrists should be replaced by proper treatment programmes, laser machine's, technicians and surgeons specialised in various gender proceedure's....or that too easy?
Just because your sane, and know your a woman, doesnt mean everyone that says thier female or male or neither, is... Shrinks are there for our own good, and as shown by that ozzy iddiot who detransitioned and sued... thier there to protect doctors too...
R >:D
I had shrinks who thought I mentioned 'having magical powers' (geez) and dismissed me because thats what they thought they heard or understood (it wasn't, not even remotely).
My current shrink, well, she has no issue with my transition, which is good. She has issue with me calling myself a real woman though, apparently the only way anyone calls me a woman is because I dress like one (or because they pity me, are open-minded, etc) and not at all because I'm one.
I disagree with her, but I let it pass, because if I didn't, I wouldn't hear the end of it. Finding another shrink is not on my fun-thing-to-do list either.
Quote from: Rachael on February 27, 2008, 09:55:27 AM
Just because your sane, and know your a woman, doesnt mean everyone that says thier female or male or neither, is... Shrinks are there for our own good, and as shown by that ozzy iddiot who detransitioned and sued... thier there to protect doctors too...
R >:D
Is that a typo??
I have been to two shrinks, one was clearly a nutcase but very highly regarded would you believe? I am a jaded patient, I tell them what they want to hear, and how in hell is that doing me any good?
Some barely have any common sense at all, as I have a friend who works for one and my brother is a psych nurse and he has some stories to tell!
I don't really like shrinks as you can tell, they might start off with good intentions but that goes out the window pretty quickly! ::)
I dunno, most doctors/ shrinks ive met re this seem alright tbh...
R >:D
*natalie clutches her lower abdomen* You wanna be IS, I'll trade you -- you can have the pain and health problems. And then get poked by the doctors all the time while they try to figure out how to fix you...
werd..... Nothing like the indignity of medical examinations to make you feel oh so validated...
R >:D
Yeah, medical exams aren't fun. Yesterday I had to take my pants off while the doctor checked down there for stuff. Checked other stuff, too... it was a long appointment.
If you dont want to be poked and proded, and can deal with the pains... Just tell them "I have no insurance, and Im broke wiht bad credit" and then the doctors dont want to have anything to do with you anymore LoL.
I dont know if that will work in other countries, but in the US that pretty much bars you from any medical service unless you have cash in hand.
I am not sure anybody wants to be intersex. Coming from the physical end of things it ended up in years of intense genitial pain (unrelated to the trans issues) that I could not explain but was later found out to be an infant genital surgical "correction", along with a distal hypospadias which was uncorrected that resulted in bladder infections. Hooray, isn't surgically corrected IS conditions fun and validating. So is dealing with hours of dealing with a co-related learning disability being taken care of and the 4 years of orthodontic hell dealing with a highly arched pallet. It was extremely validating. Same goes for my off the wall hormonal reactions. Very validating. The only thing I got out of it...a better sensitivity to female hormones...which yes...I think has been helpful. But I could of dealt without all the other stuff.
Being intersex does not validate your gender identity, far from it, you are just saddled with additional problems.
nah, a LOT of transpeople WANT to be interesex, and go to great lenths to find out or dream... as you said. if anything, it makes your identity that more flakey....
you dont feel like you CAN identify as part of the human race :(
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on March 30, 2008, 08:59:44 AM
nah, a LOT of transpeople WANT to be interesex, and go to great lenths to find out or dream... as you said. if anything, it makes your identity that more flakey....
you dont feel like you CAN identify as part of the human race :(
R >:D
It doesn't help much if you are and you don't get any special treatment...... in fact as far as GIC's in the U.K go it seems to enforce their negativity..
got me hrt without seeing a gic... id still be 4 years from hrt now... so it does have SOME benefits...
R >:D