It is very concerning to me that a fair sized portion of transsexual people STILL use how feminine (or masculine in the case of f2ms) they are to justify their decision to transition. Or even worse, accuse other people who have transitioned and even had surgery of not being a transsexual based on how masculine acting they are (or feminine for f2ms)(*). When TSs say such things all they do is re-enforce the view that people transition simply based on acting more like the 'other gender' than the gender role they were assigned at birth.
In the past, when western culture's views on gender roles were much more rigid and people were far more convinced that nature not nurture was the main reason behind the differences in behaviour between men and women the type of argument I mentioned above had some success. Increasingly though, gender roles are becoming less restrictive and it's becoming more acceptable for people to behave 'like the other gender'. Still though, the classical justifications above probably still have some success, particularly with members of the older generation. 5, 10, 20 years into the future however? Such arguments are going to be routinely used AGAINST transsexual people. If we wait till that time before we start to argue in a more sensible manner it's going to take a long time to undo the damage already done.
More and more, cisgender people are accusing TSs of 'fighting the wrong battle'. They see us as people who have mutilated or wish to mutilate ourselves just to fit into society more easily. From their perspective, it seems so drastic and unnecessary for someone to do something so serious to themselves just so they're not seen as abnormal. Who can blame people for holding this view, it's a logical conclusion from the justifications transseuxal people themselves have voiced repeatedly.
When TSs demand to be accepted as members of their adopted gender role by arguing that it's a physical medical condition and they can't help it, they're simply trying to expand the definition of 'normal' to include them, rather than say it's ok to be something a bit different. Further proof that reinforcing stereotypes is part of the transsexual agenda. Is it any wonder that a proportion of queer identified cisgender people really don't have any time for transsexuals?
I'm not saying don't be binary identified and I'm not saying don't be a feminine woman or a masculine man. What I'm saying is don't use how gender role conforming your behaviour is or how 'normal' you are to justify being a transsexual because it simply DOESN'T WORK. The counter arguments are so simple and easy to make that any idiot transphobe (or even person that has nothing against transsexuals but just doubts that our condition is real) can make us look stupid with little effort.
Once we stop doing this, and instead start arguing based on us having a neurological condition we might actually be seen as something other than ->-bleeped-<-s that have 'GONE TOO FAR'.
On a separate note, I can already visualise people reading the previous sentence and getting worked up because neurological might imply mental condition not physical condition. First think of it this way, people with Asperger's or ADD or similar conditions are not freaks or 'mental', they're just people with unusual neurological wiring. TSs are in an even better position, their neurological condition is just having the 'wrong' one of two normal states (brain wired male / brain wired female). People getting worked up at this explanation because 'its like saying we're mental' need to realise it doesn't imply what they think it implies.
XY chromosomes generally produce male body, male mind (ignoring genetic issues like SRY problems or androgen insensitivity). We can easily explain m2fs as having male body, female mind, i.e. a neurological (or god forbid 'mental') condition. However some people seem to prefer to argue that it's a physical condition. Come up with a justification for how m2fs have female brain, male chromosomes and male hormones but somehow their body is the thing that is wrong, then give some consideration to Occam's razor.
(*stating other people's gender identity's are wrong simply because they might behave in a manner somewhat consistant with the the gender role they were raised in is low, very low. I'm not saying ALL TSs are 'genuine' but dismissing people on such shallow grounds really shows what a limited view of transsexualism some TSs truly have)
bingo.... said this before, the 'if you transition and your happy afterwards, then its right for you!'
here was me thinking m2fs transitioned BECAUSE they were female, not just cos they liked being female or wanted to be...
its not bloody makebelive... you arnt in elementry school ffs...
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 12:40:25 PM
here was me thinking m2fs transitioned BECAUSE they were female, not just cos they liked being female or wanted to be...
Sort of. There's still room for variation, though: an MtF TG transitions because she needs a female gender role (to match her identity), while an MtF TS transitions because she needs a female body (to match her mind). In the latter case, life will be much easier if she transitions socially as well (plus, of course, the SoC require that for SRS).
I'm not sure either of these reasons is any more or less valid than the other, but they are different. Arguments about one of them (either for or against) may well be completely irrelevant to the other.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on January 29, 2008, 02:04:42 PM
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 12:40:25 PM
here was me thinking m2fs transitioned BECAUSE they were female, not just cos they liked being female or wanted to be...
Sort of. There's still room for variation, though: an MtF TG transitions because she needs a female gender role (to match her identity), while an MtF TS transitions because she needs a female body (to match her mind). In the latter case, life will be much easier if she transitions socially as well (plus, of course, the SoC require that for SRS).
I'm not sure either of these reasons is any more or less valid than the other, but they are different. Arguments about one of them (either for or against) may well be completely irrelevant to the other.
Nfr
Just to be clear, I have nothing against the TG type people you mention. As I don't believe in enforcing gendered behaviour or gender roles there is nothing wrong with somebody living as whatever gender they want to, no matter what their body image is (if indeed they have one, some people don't) or how they identify. However the people my original post was aimed at are the 'I am a real woman not like these transgenderists' types who would HATE to have the TG label applied to them (see the Harry Benjamin Syndrome crowd for example).
pesonaly i trantioned because i am a woman and wanted others to see (a body congruence with my gender) who i was. i didn't transitioned to be "different". And this includes behaviour, roles and all but that's me.
Quote from: Natasha on January 29, 2008, 03:40:14 PM
pesonaly i trantioned because i am a woman and wanted others to see (a body congruence with my gender) who i was. i didn't transitioned to be "different". And this includes behaviour, roles and all but that's me.
So you saying you put effort into conforming to expected behaviour and roles or it was all just natural to you? If the latter, then good for you, though I don't see what relevance it has to the point that I was making about justifying transition.
At the end of the day, the "why" never matters. Because of this, or that - few, if any, ever care. What they do long for is not the reason, but the confidence in the decision. The honesty of the life. The ideal that you choose what you choose because its right for you, because its what you want, because its right. Any sort of plea that tends to color to any sort of coercion is going to be seen as just that, and held less valid because of it.
Quote from: Andra on January 29, 2008, 03:44:26 PM
Quote from: Natasha on January 29, 2008, 03:40:14 PM
pesonaly i trantioned because i am a woman and wanted others to see (a body congruence with my gender) who i was. i didn't transitioned to be "different". And this includes behaviour, roles and all but that's me.
So you saying you put effort into conforming to expected behaviour and roles or it was all just natural to you? If the latter, then good for you, though I don't see what relevance it has to the point that I was making about justifying transition.
oh no, no effort on my part. for me it was a matter of "undoing" male behavior rather than assimilating a new one. but the thing is that if you are happy with what you're accomplishing, that's all it matters. we can't expect other people to agree with our viewpoints. the key is to live your life as you so please and be content with it.
a matter of "undoing" male behavior rather than assimilating a new one
I wonder if I stripped everything else away, took it down to the bone, and pushed it hard, how much of it was really undone?
Much as I hate to agree with tekla, I do here. The justifications are for the 'us.' Not for the 'them.' For the most part they are going to see things as they do. O, the more info that's available the more they are likely to become accepting. And the neurological variances and similarities if not yet conclusive are certainly pointing toward areas of study that may well prove conclusive of a neurological intersex condition (or whatever designation it is given.)
Social constructs are what they are. But, there are a few seeming differences between the sexes that are probably hard-wired into the brain and are enhanced by estrogen and testosterone. Among those 'field vision' rather than 'concentrated vision,' a tendency better enhanced 'color vision, 'tomyelinated neurons and un-myelinated neuron quantities, an enhanced degree of 'communion' and 'agency' a tendency to 'fight-flight' and a tendency to 'gather-stay.' Some of these are distributed through the spectrum of human-being but in much greater numbers in one sex than in the other.
That is one reason I relate 'gender' to social custom and 'sex' to biology. And why I prefer 'transsexuality' over 'transgender.' One appears more accurate and biological than the other.
How these play out may well be the basis for otherwise culturally learned responses.
Am I a woman because I like 'pink' or 'satin?' Hardly.
N~
Quote from: Natasha on January 29, 2008, 04:08:25 PM
the key is to live your life as you so please and be content with it.
That often depends on being somewhere where other people will permit you to do that.
As for 'doing' and 'undoing,' I suspect that the answer is more than tekla seems to expect. Lots of behavioral studies to show that regardless the conditioning sometimes if the 'conditioned behavior' is uncomfortable enough for the conditioned person, the conditioning becomes a utilitarian overlay that can quite easily be dispensed with in the absence of the coercion to employ it.
N~
Quote from: Andra on January 29, 2008, 04:19:15 PM
Quote from: Natasha on January 29, 2008, 04:08:25 PM
the key is to live your life as you so please and be content with it.
That often depends on being somewhere where other people will permit you to do that.
Yes, unfortunately that's what it boils down to. :)
When I was a kid, I would go with my mama, back to her home, where there were "colored" bathrooms - and everything else. Today, as I'm watching a near certain possibility that the same person who could not go to the same bathroom as I, is about to be elected President of the USA. Perhaps that is a statement as to how bad Bush II screwed the pooch that he pretty much made it impossible for a white guy to be elected president, or - maybe, just maybe - that change is possible.
Quote from: buttercup on January 29, 2008, 04:42:28 PM
Quote from: Andra on January 29, 2008, 04:19:15 PM
Quote from: Natasha on January 29, 2008, 04:08:25 PM
the key is to live your life as you so please and be content with it.
That often depends on being somewhere where other people will permit you to do that.
Yes, unfortunately that's what it boils down to. :)
::) ::) ::) umm maybe not maybe it might boil down to that maybe. but then again .
maybe it depends on being some where that you can or let your self to premit your self to do that
but what do i know ::) ::) ::) just a thought iam haveing ::) ::)
Posted on: January 29, 2008, 05:08:04 PM
Quote from: tekla on January 29, 2008, 05:05:48 PM
When I was a kid, I would go with my mama, back to her home, where there were "colored" bathrooms - and everything else. Today, as I'm watching a near certain possibility that the same person who could not go to the same bathroom as I, is about to be elected President of the USA. Perhaps that is a statement as to how bad Bush II screwed the pooch that he pretty much made it impossible for a white guy to be elected president, or - maybe, just maybe - that change is possible.
indeed tekla change is always possible :)
I count on it, work for it, bet the farm on it. But that is the USA, other nations might not be so quick, nor have a history so soaked in blood to justify that faith either.
why do natal women conform to some gender 'steriotypes'?
because its natural for them? or because society expects it?
i vote the later... social trimmings are social trimmings,
at the end of the day, we are who we are, then we are who we are raised ontop....
at the end of the day we act in a certian social way, becuse society expects it, be you cisgender, transgender, or a flying tortoise with 4 paws and a peacocks tail....
we behave as 'normal' becuse its expected, its usually fairly tollerable, and not a biggy.
Society has rules, usually thier alright... IMO, there is no such thing as defacto behavour or tendacies fora gender...
a girl raised by a single mother with all sisters is more likely to be quite feminine.
a girl raised by a single father with all brothers is likely to be fairly tomboyish.
neither is less female, neither is more. Society just expects the first.
R >:D
Maybe it's my liberal arts background that causes this, but I'm extremely reticient to rely on "I have a condition" as arguementation. What if they develop a test for this condition, and it says I'm not a woman after all. Does that mean I have to transition back or something?
I don't like being seen as someone with a disability. I don't want to be seen as a disorder either. I feel like both of those are sort of victim mentality's and shirk a lot of responsibility. "I can't help it, it's just the way I was born, poor me" doesn't sit well with me.
Why does there need to be an excuse and explanation at all? Why can't I just own my choices in life and be afforded the respect to be judged on my own terms? Who cares WHY I identify as a woman. I am one so let's move forward
Anyone who views SRS as living with a mutaliation, probably doesn't like tatoos or piercings either. Give me a break. It's 2008. Time to evolve our understanding of identity.
flying tortoise with 4 paws and a peacocks tail
Oh that's so me, at least when I did acid. But now, I'm down with SarahFD, and its just what I am. I do not lie to people, nor do I live a lie. "I Yam what I Yam" as Popeye would say. Such stuff is governed by my time in space, I had options that others never could dream of, and some that came in a time and space were I was not. So be it.
the lieing is living as a dude... not 'not telling people that your trans'
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude...
Meh. That kind of intense negative focus on one's past doesn't really help that much either. I'd rather not consider myself a 20 year liar. Especially since at my core I'm still the same person. And enough of that got through growing up, that I think it's a mischaracterization to label myself a liar because of it.
Plus I mean. It's no big deal. Everyone has different backgrounds. Invalidating mine to make someone else feel more comfortable isn't at all healthy. If people want to really be close to me, they are going to have to accept that I grew up living one gender, and now live another. I have valuable experiences because of that, and a good friend is going to want to hear those experiences, and hearing them won't invalidate how they see me now.
::) ::) ::)
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude... not 'not telling people that your trans'
R >:D
yes that is true one the frist part rachel . but on the seconed part um,mmm why do you need to tell
people that you are trans . if they dont pick up on or have a clue umm then no harms or fauls.
but if for some reason they do find this out by some chance . then yea it could be said that you lied . but
if they have not then found out then well um why worry about it ???
Posted on: January 29, 2008, 07:10:15 PM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PM
Maybe it's my liberal arts background that causes this, but I'm extremely reticient to rely on "I have a condition" as arguementation. What if they develop a test for this condition, and it says I'm not a woman after all. Does that mean I have to transition back or something?
I don't like being seen as someone with a disability. I don't want to be seen as a disorder either. I feel like both of those are sort of victim mentality's and shirk a lot of responsibility. "I can't help it, it's just the way I was born, poor me" doesn't sit well with me.
Why does there need to be an excuse and explanation at all? Why can't I just own my choices in life and be afforded the respect to be judged on my own terms? Who cares WHY I identify as a woman. I am one so let's move forward
Anyone who views SRS as living with a mutaliation, probably doesn't like tatoos or piercings either. Give me a break. It's 2008. Time to evolve our understanding of identity.
:eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: i have to agree with you sara and tekla
Just a thought. Could we please avoid the eighth or so 'out/stealth' 'tell/don't' thread in the past seven days?
Can we just stick to justifying how and why we are who we are. Not how we cope with that, please?
Nichole
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PM
Maybe it's my liberal arts background that causes this, but I'm extremely reticient to rely on "I have a condition" as arguementation. What if they develop a test for this condition, and it says I'm not a woman after all. Does that mean I have to transition back or something?
I don't like being seen as someone with a disability. I don't want to be seen as a disorder either. I feel like both of those are sort of victim mentality's and shirk a lot of responsibility. "I can't help it, it's just the way I was born, poor me" doesn't sit well with me.
Why does there need to be an excuse and explanation at all? Why can't I just own my choices in life and be afforded the respect to be judged on my own terms? Who cares WHY I identify as a woman. I am one so let's move forward
Anyone who views SRS as living with a mutaliation, probably doesn't like tatoos or piercings either. Give me a break. It's 2008. Time to evolve our understanding of identity.
:)
I dislike playing the victim card too. 'Its ok because its medical' is almost as bad as 'Its ok because its normal'. I like the idea of just being seen as genderqueer who is doing their own thing, rather than someone who is a slave to a medical issue. What annoys me is people with lousy justifications for why THEY are ok but other types of gender variant people aren't...
Most of the people responding are type of people who my original post sooo isn't aimed at. It's aimed at those who have a very close-minded, old fashioned, (and often restrictive) view of gender not those who have, as you put it evolved the understanding of identity.
I guess my original post reads as having a very body-dysphoria-centric view of things, which was unintentional. Please don't think I have anything against people who transition or present in a gender variant manner for other reasons. On the contrary, I have a lot of respect for those who have the confidence to outwardly be who they are for some reason other than sheer necessity. (Oh and I should add that I can see how transitioning for social reasons may be necessary for emotional stability for some people). On the plus side, the post has produced several replies which made me smile in agreement.
Posted on: January 29, 2008, 07:30:12 PM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PM
Maybe it's my liberal arts background that causes this, but I'm extremely reticient to rely on "I have a condition" as arguementation. What if they develop a test for this condition, and it says I'm not a woman after all. Does that mean I have to transition back or something?
Heh, there's a definite plus side to it being a matter of identity, nobody can tell you that you're wrong. If you think you have dysphoria, then you do. Whether it's persistant or whether it's a symptom of something else is arguable, but the fact that you feel it isn't (unless you're simply just lying). The proof is tautologicaltastic!
Quote from: Andra on January 29, 2008, 07:37:33 PM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PM
Maybe it's my liberal arts background that causes this, but I'm extremely reticient to rely on "I have a condition" as arguementation. What if they develop a test for this condition, and it says I'm not a woman after all. Does that mean I have to transition back or something?
I don't like being seen as someone with a disability. I don't want to be seen as a disorder either. I feel like both of those are sort of victim mentality's and shirk a lot of responsibility. "I can't help it, it's just the way I was born, poor me" doesn't sit well with me.
Why does there need to be an excuse and explanation at all? Why can't I just own my choices in life and be afforded the respect to be judged on my own terms? Who cares WHY I identify as a woman. I am one so let's move forward
Anyone who views SRS as living with a mutaliation, probably doesn't like tatoos or piercings either. Give me a break. It's 2008. Time to evolve our understanding of identity.
:)
I dislike playing the victim card too. 'Its ok because its medical' is almost as bad as 'Its ok because its normal'. I like the idea of just being seen as genderqueer who is doing their own thing, rather than someone who is a slave to a medical issue. What annoys me is people with lousy justifications for why THEY are ok but other types of gender variant people aren't...
Most of the people responding are type of people who my original post sooo isn't aimed at. It's aimed at those who have a very close-minded, old fashioned, (and often restrictive) view of gender not those who have, as you put it evolved the understanding of identity.
I guess my original post reads as having a very body-dysphoria-centric view of things, which was unintentional. Please don't think I have anything against people who transition or present in a gender variant manner for other reasons. On the contrary, I have a lot of respect for those who have the confidence to outwardly be who they are for some reason other than sheer necessity. (Oh and I should add that I can see how transitioning for social reasons may be necessary for emotional stability for some people). On the plus side, the post has produced several replies which made me smile in agreement.
Posted on: January 29, 2008, 07:30:12 PM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PM
Maybe it's my liberal arts background that causes this, but I'm extremely reticient to rely on "I have a condition" as arguementation. What if they develop a test for this condition, and it says I'm not a woman after all. Does that mean I have to transition back or something?
Heh, there's a definite plus side to it being a matter of identity, nobody can tell you that you're wrong. If you think you have dysphoria, then you do. Whether it's persistant or whether it's a symptom of something else is arguable, but the fact that you feel it isn't (unless you're simply just lying). The proof is tautologicaltastic!
Yeah I agreed with where the post you made was for the most part. There's a lot I can be like "YEAAAAH" to. So I'm glad to hear we are on the same side basically. Because I thought we kind of were. But I wasn't totally sure.
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 07:47:33 PM
Yeah I agreed with where the post you made was for the most part. There's a lot I can be like "YEAAAAH" to. So I'm glad to hear we are on the same side basically. Because I thought we kind of were. But I wasn't totally sure.
Thanks, I was beginning to get worried that I'd been totally misconstrued :'( :)
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 07:05:22 PM
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude...
Meh. That kind of intense negative focus on one's past doesn't really help that much either. I'd rather not consider myself a 20 year liar. Especially since at my core I'm still the same person. And enough of that got through growing up, that I think it's a mischaracterization to label myself a liar because of it.
Plus I mean. It's no big deal. Everyone has different backgrounds. Invalidating mine to make someone else feel more comfortable isn't at all healthy. If people want to really be close to me, they are going to have to accept that I grew up living one gender, and now live another. I have valuable experiences because of that, and a good friend is going to want to hear those experiences, and hearing them won't invalidate how they see me now.
I have entirely valuable experiences through the way I was raised. I don't consider them bad points, because I would never have gotten this far. I do feel like I'm "living a lie" though. Even If I'm not, "Lying to myself", I seem to be doing so to others in keeping such a deep-seated secret.
I agree with what you said before too. If they tested my brain to see what gender it belonged to, and it came back male, I wouldn't care because of a few biological things programmed in. The things preprogrammed don't seem important to me anyway. I'm not a caveperson, why should I care about the roles adapted for that role? The point is, is that I don't feel right in my skin.
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 07:05:22 PM
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude...
Meh. That kind of intense negative focus on one's past doesn't really help that much either. I'd rather not consider myself a 20 year liar. Especially since at my core I'm still the same person. And enough of that got through growing up, that I think it's a mischaracterization to label myself a liar because of it.
Plus I mean. It's no big deal. Everyone has different backgrounds. Invalidating mine to make someone else feel more comfortable isn't at all healthy. If people want to really be close to me, they are going to have to accept that I grew up living one gender, and now live another. I have valuable experiences because of that, and a good friend is going to want to hear those experiences, and hearing them won't invalidate how they see me now.
Sarah,
i often agree with what you say, and i like your posts. alot. i don't know why i haven't told you before. but you rock!
-ellie
At least she offers another point of view versus the rigid side.
Quote from: debbie.j on January 29, 2008, 07:14:28 PM
::) ::) ::)
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude... not 'not telling people that your trans'
R >:D
yes that is true one the frist part rachel . but on the seconed part um,mmm why do you need to tell
people that you are trans . if they dont pick up on or have a clue umm then no harms or fauls.
but if for some reason they do find this out by some chance . then yea it could be said that you lied . but
well i did mean that you aint lying or had t obe out.... oh bugger ><
Quote from: ell on January 29, 2008, 09:19:49 PM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 07:05:22 PM
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude...
Meh. That kind of intense negative focus on one's past doesn't really help that much either. I'd rather not consider myself a 20 year liar. Especially since at my core I'm still the same person. And enough of that got through growing up, that I think it's a mischaracterization to label myself a liar because of it.
Plus I mean. It's no big deal. Everyone has different backgrounds. Invalidating mine to make someone else feel more comfortable isn't at all healthy. If people want to really be close to me, they are going to have to accept that I grew up living one gender, and now live another. I have valuable experiences because of that, and a good friend is going to want to hear those experiences, and hearing them won't invalidate how they see me now.
Sarah,
i often agree with what you say, and i like your posts. alot. i don't know why i haven't told you before. but you rock!
-ellie
Thank you Ellie. ;D
Very interesting topic, Andra. I'm glad you posted it.
Personally, I think you're right, that there is an "assimilationist" character to a lot of transsexual (less so for transgender) ideology. The problem is when you begin to change YOURSELF to fit in to popular ideas of what your target sex should be like. Some people really overdo it, totally abandoning old interests in favor of new, "gender-appropriate" interests.
At the same time, we do live in the real world, in a real social context, and it's pragmatic to conform. I don't think there's any shame in assimilating, given the very real dangers of sticking out as "incorrect." Until the transgender community has a major celebration of our own besides a Day of Remembrance for our Dead (which probably won't happen in the near future, unfortunately), I'm afraid I come down on the assimilationist side. That is to say, there are no male aspects of my life that I've given up, but sticking out too much is an individual danger, unless we start roaming around in gangs. >:D
I should note that professionally and with friends, I am pretty open (kind of unavoidable since I'm a gender/sexuality person in my MA program). But who wants to wear their trans-ness on their sleeve walking down the street? I don't see any other solution but to assimilate in public.
Lia
Quote from: Nichole W. on January 29, 2008, 04:22:43 PM
Lots of behavioral studies to show that regardless the conditioning sometimes if the 'conditioned behavior' is uncomfortable enough for the conditioned person, the conditioning becomes a utilitarian overlay that can quite easily be dispensed with in the absence of the coercion to employ it.
Ah. Nice to hear that.
This gives me a boost of confidence with my personal nature-vs-nurture hypothesis. Namely, that upbringing has some impact on just how GID affects one's life -- but in a way opposite to what the right-wing propaganda claims. If a person with GID is brought up too strictly according to their apparent birth sex, the end result is a lot of misery followed by transition (unless something terrible happens along the way, of course). If, on the other hand, the gender-specific conditioning is kept to low enough a level, it may be possible to grow into some diluted variant of birth-gender social role.
I'm pretty sure that's part of what happened to me; most of the 'utilitarian overlays' have dropped off over the years, and it's really hard to see artificial male traits to shed. I don't think my life so far has been a lie. Keeping honest may require some work, though, because of the weird way various gender-related concepts interfere with each other, from my body image through anatomical sex to social gender.
Nfr
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PMWho cares WHY I identify as a woman.
Right, there is no "why" to identity, it's just something that is. I identify as a female and that's why I transitioned. It's as simple as that. There are no tests and nothing to invalidate my reasoning. :)
To everybody who has posted here my only input is:
YES!!!
Quote from: Melissa on January 30, 2008, 05:16:57 PM
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PMWho cares WHY I identify as a woman.
Right, there is no "why" to identity, it's just something that is. I identify as a female and that's why I transitioned. It's as simple as that. There are no tests and nothing to invalidate my reasoning. :)
Well, and nice to see you too, stranger! :)
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 10:39:32 PM
Quote from: debbie.j on January 29, 2008, 07:14:28 PM
::) ::) ::)
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude... not 'not telling people that your trans'
R >:D
yes that is true one the frist part rachel . but on the seconed part um,mmm why do you need to tell
people that you are trans . if they dont pick up on or have a clue umm then no harms or fauls.
but if for some reason they do find this out by some chance . then yea it could be said that you lied . but
well i did mean that you aint lying or had t obe out.... oh bugger ><
oh its ok Rachael :P
sorry I know this topic is a little old but I have been gone for a long time so I wanted to give my two cents worth (I doubt it is really worth that) maybe we feel the need to give these bad justifactions because the way we are judged even in the official determination of weather we are transsexuals is based on sterotypes. take for example the COGIATI test it seems to rely mostly on sterotypical gender expression as to weather we truely are transsexual or not. in the process of being "allowed" to go through with SRS it seems we are forced to conform to these sterotypes if we want SRS. if we are going to be forced to justify ourselfs to the world as to weather we deserve the right to live as who we know we are then it pushes the idea that it is ok to judge based on these standards. this is just one opinion.
Id like to express something here.
My views in this topic are my own. not part of getting in on some drama giggles... If my doubters would like to look at my posts, they can see ive expressed this view many times, and id like them to stfu complaining and insinuating behind my back....
R >:D