I finally took some first steps today towards being what I am.
I am giddy and it is all your fault, all of you.
I will post an intro in the other forum but I wanted to post this first while still feeling the rush and fresh in my mind. Bear in mind, I am 35 and have repressed these feelings all my life, I mean I severely held them back in an effort to fit in with men. I am quite shy as well so any change is major to me. Call me a coward if you want, but this is whole thing scares the hell out of me, which angers me, but I am happy to finally understand.
All my life I wanted to have long hair, I was always pushing my luck with the length. Even in the military I was in trouble with it, and in high school ended up with a nickname based on it. Seems like I was never allowed to let it grow much at all like I wanted so once I started growing it out I did not stop. I know long hair is not a big deal, so that is not a stretch by much and is helpful for me now. How long you ask, so long that customers have commented on it... I am going on 7 years worth, it is down to my waist when combed out and while a hassle, I love it. It was such a gradual thing I did not pay much attention to it and I wear it in ponytail most of the time. It is only in the last year that people have really started to notice it, I find it odd that it took so long.
I spent so much time looking for an explanation about my feelings, then I found this place and went ah ha! Since then I have spent nearly every waking moment reading all I can. One of the links posted had hair tips specifically sideburns. Not sure where it came from though. It more or less described the difference between female and male sideburns. Something I had never really notice before, but shortly after reading this I went out for diner and started looking at the women with longer hair.
When I got home I went at mine for a more feminine look... Just tweaking the sideburns a little, nothing else and nothing drastic. The difference is really striking, it completely changed my eyes and upper face, not something I expected.
When I did it, I did not think it would be a big deal, but I was shocked at the change! After admiring the look though, the panic set in. Noticeable to others or not I am aware of it. This was a couple hours ago, but I am still shaking from it. I feel more than a little stupid for feeling so self conscious about it and yet happy that I did it. How this will go over with people is something I do worry about though. For the moment I am glowing and my face even feels different (which I cannot stop touching). I guess I can play it off as a trimming accident, if I have to explain it.
For now I just wanted to say thanks.
The courage some of you have with how far you have pushed things inspires me. I do not think I could do what some of you have done. Ken/Kendra and Laurrie in particular, I envy you (you can laugh if you want). I mean, jeez, I got completely freaked out by a small hair change, probably not even 1/2in changed. I can only hope I will get bolder with it as I go. Even writing this is a bit tough as both sides of me are screaming, the male side says less emotion, the feminine side is screaming MORE! I cannot tell you how many re-writes have taken place.
I just realized I am rambling.
Will someone just please tell me there a light at the end of this tunnel where you can be comfortable. Please.
sorry.
As far as I can see there is no light at the end of an androgyne tunnel in that way. Unless you know exactly where you want to go with it. It's all a bit unexplored territory.
Hello sd,
"As far as I can see there is no light at the end of an androgyne tunnel in that way. Unless you know exactly where you want to go with it. It's all a bit unexplored territory."
Maybe that's true of androgyne tunnels. In my former tunnel there was that light, and it turned out not to be the 5:15 Express coming through at warp-speed. It turned out to be the light of day.
I enjoyed reading your post a lot. It touched me very much. Your wonder and excitement are just really awesome in your post! Thanks for writing it and allowing me to gather that into myself. What a lovely rendition of discovery.
The light in that tunnel is you. If people notice that, then perhaps that is what they have needed to notice. What you have needed to notice. It looked quite lovely from where I sat.
Sometimes I think we forget that the light is us. We become kinda jaded with our own changes, with the acceptance of just ourselves as being the most important changes of all. :)
Thanks so much for posting those words. They were simply beautiful. The message they carried and the light they bring are valuable and quite a gift to read.
Hugs,
Nichole
We won't call you a coward for being scared. Finding these things out about yourself can often be really scary. You seem to have strove to be something you are not all your life, and then you suddenly feel as if you have woken from a dream and realized that you're something the opposite or entirely different.
I'm sorry I haven't written more but I hope this helps. If support is what you seek there are many here who will welcome you with open arms because a lot of them know exactly how you feel and have been through the same kind of situations. I hope you can find what you need here.
I have to echo Pica's sentiments as well, but that doesn't mean the situation is hopeless just because there may not be a definite "light".
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 04, 2008, 05:10:12 AM
sorry.
As far as I can see there is no light at the end of an androgyne tunnel in that way. Unless you know exactly where you want to go with it. It's all a bit unexplored territory.
That's right. There is no androgyne tunnel, but rather you are way north of the Arctic Circle, around Christmas. In other words, sunrise is still a few months away, but there's plenty of room all around, and the sunny summer nights are going to be beautiful. Here's some light :icon_idea: -- please start exploring on your own. If you don't get back by spring we'll send out a search party. ;)
Nfr
Well, the good news is, I woke up today happier than I have in almost a decade. :angel:
Early no less.
Reading all those replies I was thinking how sweet, and then the male side kicked in again... :embarrassed:
This will definitely take some getting used to, I am so inclined to take the traditional make route reading this stuff.
Thanks for the support, it does help.
Quote from: Nichole W. on February 04, 2008, 05:54:05 AM
The light in that tunnel is you.
Wow!
That is just ,
WOW! So simple and yet makes so much sense. The question now is, do I run or walk towards it.
By the way, I looked at my hair again this morning while much more calm. It is not very noticeable unless you look for it, which to me is just about perfect.
I want more!
Hi sd :icon_biggrin:
Your long hair is sounds wonderfully androgynous!
Head hair grows just as long on men as it does on women and in exactly the same colours. Long lustrous hair is a sign of human health in both men and women. If both sexes have it, it is androgynous.
There is a sexual dimorphism in male pattern baldness however.
What is or isn't a masculine or a feminine hairstyle is purely cultural.
Throughout history, humans have used hair to indicate any number of things: age group, sexual orientation, social status, religious beliefs, military service, political protest, tribal membership, and even as a form of criminal punishment. The story of Samson and Delilah speaks an ancient tale of the power of hair.
How you cut or style your own hair is your choice... it's your hair! What ever you opt for, it's not permanent so relax. A haircut does not have the same commitment as a tattoo or cross-sex hormones.
Androgynes are neither masculine nor feminine. They do not have a male side or a female side.
To an Androgyne, my best advice is... Be yourself, not a gender.
If you are Bi-gendered or Gender Fluid and thus dealing with a mixture masculine and feminine gender identity issues, you might try posting about it in the Transgender Talk support area.
If you identify as a man who simply enjoys looking or feeling feminine, try the Crossdresser Talk support area.
This board, Androgyne Talk, is a support area for those who are gender-neutral, neither masculine nor feminine in their gender identification.
Enjoy your journey of gender self-discovery!
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Emerald on February 04, 2008, 01:43:00 PM
Hi sd :icon_biggrin:
Your long hair is sounds wonderfully androgynous!
Head hair grows just as long on men as it does on women and in exactly the same colours. Long lustrous hair is a sign of human health in both men and women. If both sexes have it, it is androgynous.
There is a sexual dimorphism in male pattern baldness however.
What is or isn't a masculine or a feminine hairstyle is purely cultural.
Throughout history, humans have used hair to indicate any number of things: age group, sexual orientation, social status, religious beliefs, military service, political protest, tribal membership, and even as a form of criminal punishment. The story of Samson and Delilah speaks an ancient tale of the power of hair.
How you cut or style your own hair is your choice... it's your hair! What ever you opt for, it's not permanent so relax. A haircut does not have the same commitment as a tattoo or cross-sex hormones.
Androgynes are neither masculine nor feminine. They do not have a male side or a female side.
To an Androgyne, my best advice is... Be yourself, not a gender.
If you are Bi-gendered or Gender Fluid and thus dealing with a mixture masculine and feminine gender identity issues, you might try posting about it in the Transgender Talk support area.
If you identify as a man who simply enjoys looking or feeling feminine, try the Crossdresser Talk support area.
This board, Androgyne Talk, is a support area for those who are gender-neutral, neither masculine nor feminine in their gender identification.
Enjoy your journey of gender self-discovery!
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Thanks
It is not like the male or female in me exactly, it is more of a matter of having those traits embedded into me by myself and society for so long that it is just how I can best identify the thoughts and feelings for the time being. Sort of like a reaction that has been programmed in by others. A perfect example is men at urinals or sitting in a theater together, they try not to sit or stand next to each other too closely, after a while it becomes instinct even if you do not know why. Men have entire sets of rules regarding this sort of behavior and activities. I start to let me be myself, but then my reaction is to pull back because that was what I was trained by society to do as a man regarding all of this. I have had this pounded into me for a long time and done all I could to fit into that stereotype, that is a lot of programming to undo. Obviously I do not have to follow those "rules" but they have more or less become instinct (almost by necessity to a point), same with describing my emotions about all of this. It is not necessarily a female side or male side, just where it seems they come from due to that programming.
Sort of a forest through the trees type of thing.
Maybe I should say the new me and old me instead, it would probably be much more accurate.
I tried on the other hats you mentioned (along with a ton of others), they were definitely not me.
Quote from: sd on February 04, 2008, 02:39:07 AM
Will someone just please tell me there a light at the end of this tunnel where you can be comfortable. Please.
Hi SD,
Glad that you've found us. I've been at this for years, and haven't yet seen the light at the end of the tunnel. The tunnel has gotten more comfortable though, especially since I ordered new furniture and redesigned the place ;)
y2g
I reckon all the bigender and gender fluid people are androgynes who express it in a different way.
As for what I said about there being no light - I was wrong, I agree - there is no tunnel. And I don't know about my own shine, but I got glows from all sorts of people all over the place.
It's a long journey to orientate yourself and I'm glad you've found what looks like a beginning.
Hello sd,
It is OK to have reservations when you are making a change in your
appearance. Society judges us first by how we appear and later by
our words and abilities and accomplishments.
The first time I plucked a few eyebrow hairs, wore pale fingernail
polish, or a little makeup and lipgloss I was sure everyone I encountered
would point at me and scream "FREAK".
I was very nervous, and that is what people responded to. Now when
I feel like expressing myself, I just do it, even at home sometimes
when I know it WILL be noticed and remarked upon.
Your friends might comment, but if they are truly friends they will
accept the physical changes in your life. Everyone else really doesn't
matter.
I've never had long hair and always wished I did. I used to imagine
myself with a French braid or hair shoulder length, pulled back and
tied with a simple piece of ribbon.
Explore your fantasies and enjoy your hair. Peace will come with time
Calyx
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 04, 2008, 08:00:14 PM
I reckon all the bigender and gender fluid people are androgynes who express it in a different way.
Very true, Bigender and Gender Fluid people do feel and express their gender.
But 'Androgyne' does not describe a gender expression, Pica Pica.
Androgynes have no gender to express!
Nor is Androgyne an all-inclusive umbrella term for people who are not mono-gendered.
Perhaps this will help....
'Heterosexual' is considered to be the sexual norm.
'Bisexual' and 'asexual' are sexual orientation variations which differ from the norm.
Bisexual = dual sexual (sexual interest toward both sexes)
Asexual = non-sexual (a state of being without, free from, or unaffected by sexuality)
'Cisgender' is considered to be the gender norm.
'Bigender' and 'agender' are gender variations which differ from the norm.
Bigender = dual gendered (gender identity toward both genders)
Agender = non-gendered (a state of being without, free from, or unaffected by gender; aka: Androgyne)
An asexual individual consistently lacks sexual interest with either sex group, men or women.
What does this lack of sexual interest have in common with a sexual interest for men (at times) and for women (at other times)? Nothing, save varying from the heterosexual norm.
An Androgyne individual consistently lacks gender identity with either gender group, men or women.
What does this lack of identification have in common with a self-identification as a man (at times) and as a woman (at other times)? Nothing, save varying from the Cisgender norm.
'Androgyne' is not an umbrella term for any gender variant.
'Androgyne' is a NON-binary gender variant OUTSIDE of the gender binary.
'Bigender' and 'Gender Fluid' are binary gender variants WITHIN the gender binary.
Androgynes are androgynous, neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine in self-perception or behaviour.
Bigenders are dual-gendered, moving between distinctive masculine and feminine self-perceptions and behaviours.
Androgyne is as different from Bigender as male gender is from female gender. More so in fact. If 'gender' ceased to exist, Bigender would not exist either. But Androgyne would! Androgyne IS the absence of gender.
'Gender' is a division, a dichotomy. To be an Androgyne means having the beneficial characteristics and nature of both genders in an undivided state. Within an Androgyne there is no masculinity, no femininity... only humanity. 'Androgyne' is the condition of human wholeness in an individual without the division of gender.
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Calyx on February 06, 2008, 12:28:01 AM
Now when I feel like expressing myself, I just do it, even at home sometimes when I know it WILL be noticed and remarked upon.
And in the end far fewer people notice these things than you'd fear. Even fewer go as far as to comment on it.
Quote from: Emerald on February 06, 2008, 03:00:55 AM
Bigender = dual gendered (gender identity toward both genders)
Agender = non-gendered (a state of being without, free from, or unaffected by gender; aka: Androgyne)
Still, this is only one way to divide the gender spectrum, as we've discussed a few times earlier. Just as a clarification to your list, from what I've seen
bigender is usually understood to refer to a person with a distinct male
and female identity. That said, I would also add to your list
intergender, or someone who feels e has a gender, but one somewhere between the two extremes. Further,
androgyne seems a reasonable umbrella identity for at least agender and intergender, and I'd also put bigender under it.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on February 06, 2008, 04:55:02 AM
Still, this is only one way to divide the gender spectrum, as we've discussed a few times earlier. Just as a clarification to your list, from what I've seen bigender is usually understood to refer to a person with a distinct male and female identity. That said, I would also add to your list intergender, or someone who feels e has a gender, but one somewhere between the two extremes. Further, androgyne seems a reasonable umbrella identity for at least agender and intergender, and I'd also put bigender under it.
Nfr
Seshatneferw-
Please tread carefully here... :eusa_pray:
Androgyne is not an umbrella term. Transgender is an umbrella term.
Under the administrative threat of having the "Androgyne Talk" forum closed again, 'Androgyne' is a term which refers to people who are androgynous, being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior, and no further debate on the definition of 'Androgyne' as will be entertained. Null-gender is covered by Androgyne... Bigender is covered by Transgender... and Intergender is covered by the Genderqueer title, thus says the Web Administrator. For what it is worth, I find agreement in the logic of these groupings which are designed to aid in support on this Transgender Support website.
I'm sure you remember the thread:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?&topic=22474
"I am tired of constant attempts to redefine Androgyne as transgender lite or transsexual lite."
"They key is that androgyne is neither masculine nor feminine which doesn't apply to many other segements of the communities serviced by this web site."
"The issue is that people have been trying to fit non-androgyne groups into the androgyne definition by using it as an umbrella term which it is not. The Androgyne forums is for the androgynous."
-Susan
If you are able to organize 10 qualifying members with 100 posts who identify as Bigender or Gender Fluid or Genderqueer or Intergender and request a support board in that name, I'm confident the Web Administrator will see fit to do so. A new a forum for people those who are a unique combination of masculine and feminine gender would be of immense benefit to all concerned!
Intergender...
There is only one member I recall who identified as Intergender and he/she has long since changed their gender ID and now identifies as Crossdressing Male-to-Intersex. One of a kind I think. There are number of members which specifically identity as Gender Fluid and Bigender. I believe there are enough people to form a quorum providing they can agree on a name for their gender group identification.
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Emerald on February 06, 2008, 10:24:53 AM
Androgyne is not an umbrella term. Transgender is an umbrella term.
Sigh. Yes, true,
transgender covers us all. I still think that
androgyne covers a range of the gender spectrum, rather in the middle, and that it can be sub-divided if necessary. It's pretty much similar to how
female covers a range towards one end of the spectrum, and how it is possible to see distinct sub-divisions of that range, like
femme.
Quote from: Emerald on February 06, 2008, 10:24:53 AM
Under the administrative threat of having the "Androgyne Talk" forum closed again, 'Androgyne' is a term which refers to people who are androgynous, being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior, and no further debate on the definition of 'Androgyne' as will be entertained.
I do in fact agree with this definition, and it was not my intent to argue against it. If I gave the wrong impression, I'm sorry.
Still, I do believe that a person who is 'neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine' can have personality traits that are normally considered male or female; it is not necessary to drop all those to qualify.
This is what I tried to say.
I didn't intend to muddy the waters. Rather, my overall goal has been to understand myself, and try to see that as a part of a bigger picture. For the past half year or so, I've been under the impression that
androgyne best fits my identity, even if I cannot consider myself
agendered. This forum has been a great help to me.
To the powers that be: if I've crossed a line, it is because I honestly still don't know where exactly it is. In any case, please do not punish the entire community, but if necessary ban me instead of closing the forum.
Nfr
Quote from: Emerald on February 06, 2008, 10:24:53 AM
Seshatneferw-
Please tread carefully here... :eusa_pray:
Androgyne is not an umbrella term. Transgender is an umbrella term.
Under the administrative threat of having the "Androgyne Talk" forum closed again, 'Androgyne' is a term which refers to people who are androgynous, being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior, and no further debate on the definition of 'Androgyne' as will be entertained.
I think you are wrong Emerald - but I can't debate this as we seem to have lost that freedom on this site. Certainly as prescribed by this forum it has such a set definition, I'm not debating that, but this does not mean people in the real world use this definition.
Anyway, shouldn't we just use the word androgynous to describe people who are androgynous? Woudn't that be far more useful and accurate (and smarter) term for what is described here? i.e. androgynous forums are for people who are androgynous in "being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior,". Call it what it is people.
Quote from: Emerald on February 06, 2008, 10:24:53 AM
'Androgyne' is a term which refers to people who are androgynous, being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior
Is this level of androgeny an ideal or is it required for membership? Must androgynes born with male bodies have their facial hair removed and undergo feminizing surgery in order to thwart their masculine appearance? Something I read on this site indicated that when men use a restroom they do their business and leave, engaging in little conversation, while women will have long conversations with perfect strangers. What do androgynes do and which room do they do it in?
Reminds me of the colleague who told me this morning that if two men leave a urinal between them and a newcomer uses it, the newcomer must be gay. I'd always thought maybe he couldn't wait any longer.
Simone
Ive just been reading another thread that had gone off topic to definitions of androgyne, something that i dont want to discuss, but im confused. when i found this forum it was like a ureka moment in my life, and i really identifyed with other peoples experiances and feeling that were just like mine. i now keep reading that im not androgynous as i feel like both male and female, which i thought was androgynous so i used that lable for myself, it dont bother me, its a word at the end of the day. i find it sad that people choose to use a word so narrowly a word is what ever you want it to be.
also something i wondered was did 10 qualifying members with 100 posts set this bit up with that definition as nearly all the people that i have read about on here dont fit that discription. i feel very frustrated about all this and sad that such a good place and one of the only ones could end up like this. though i suppose its enevitable when placing a definition on a in a group of people who by nature are non conformist :0)
oh well
I did not mean to set off a debate, sorry about that. Especially not one that is apparently so hotly contested here, I see nothing wrong with healthy discussion. But, being a forum owner/admin myself, I know how things can get out of hand in a hurry. Please, don't anyone go getting banned or anything on account of me, some of you have a lot invested here.
As for the hair, I discovered the effect only works if I am clean shaven, once the sideburn stubble shows the effect is completely ruined. Which is a bummer since I grow a beard fast. It does reduce the masculinity in my face which is nice, I really like the way it looks. Too bad I am lazy and hate shaving every day.
I can't PM you back Ken/Kendra, but thank you.
have you thought about laser on your beard area the effect of that is quite amazing and the other plus side is you dont need to shave anymore well not as much anyway :)
Quote from: sd on February 06, 2008, 11:23:48 PM
I did not mean to set off a debate, sorry about that.
No, I'm sorry that we managed to hijack this thread for a silly flame skirmish (not yet an out-and-out war, luckily).
Quote from: sd on February 06, 2008, 11:23:48 PM
As for the hair, I discovered the effect only works if I am clean shaven, once the sideburn stubble shows the effect is completely ruined. Which is a bummer since I grow a beard fast. It does reduce the masculinity in my face which is nice, I really like the way it looks. Too bad I am lazy and hate shaving every day.
Well, yes, that's part of the reason I tried an epilator for a while. Unfortunately, it needs a good grip on the hair so I had to stop shaving for weekends. That didn't seem a good trade-off, so in the end I reverted to just plain daily shaving. Also, while epilating includes a weekly adrenaline high, it's not for people with a low pain threshold ('Why are you hitting your head with a hammer?' 'Because it feels so wonderful when I stop.'). Waxing might be a somewhat better solution, if you don't want (or afford) to get rid of the hair permanently (yet).
Nfr
I also hated shaving; that was one of several reasons why I grew a beard. I also have long hair which I wear in a ponytail because it minimizes fights with my wife and daughter, and because I really don't know what to do with long hair. And I gather the ponytail low on the back rather that atop the head. Alas, that seems to be what most men with ponytails do.
I asked some questions about the meaning of an appearance that is neither masculine nor feminine, not to participate in any fight. The definition just caught me be surprise, because I had a different impression of the people participating in this forum. If the beard offends, I can leave and wrestle with these gender questions on my own again. I've fought for the right to let both plots of hair grow, and I am not yet willing to cut one or the other just to abide by someone's rules for dealing with the knowledge that I am not of the male gender. Someday, I may drastically alter my appearance to reflect my inner being, but I don't know how or when.
Simone
Well I hope you will come to a point where you can be more in-to-touch with yourself physicially Simone...personally I would always be open to familiy and friends about what I will be doing
But I guess its easier for me since I dont have a spouse and am rather young at 23
Its something I am quite happy with and I always tell potential partners of my T issues beforehand
Quote from: Simone Louise on February 07, 2008, 10:29:00 AM
because I really don't know what to do with long hair. And I gather the ponytail low on the back rather that atop the head. Alas, that seems to be what most men with ponytails do.
I asked some questions about the meaning of an appearance that is neither masculine nor feminine, not to participate in any fight. The definition just caught me be surprise, because I had a different impression of the people participating in this forum.
I do the same with my ponytail, partly for the same reason.
I am not bothered by the questions, we are all in this together. Personally, the more we share the more we can learn.
Quote from: sparkles on February 07, 2008, 04:21:39 AM
have you thought about laser on your beard area the effect of that is quite amazing and the other plus side is you dont need to shave anymore well not as much anyway :)
Absolutely.
My neck is becoming rather sensitive to shaving, though it could be that my shaver is just getting old and dull.
The cost is what is holding me back from laser or I would be all over it. There are some home (D.I.Y.) ones out now, but the results are a bit on the poor side and they take a while (could partly be user error on much of it). They cost much less than a single treatment so I am looking to find a decent one, if it exists. I am not holding my breath on that though.
I may bite the bullet and get one treatment though, it would thin it out some or thin the hairs which are quite course. All of which would be an improvement.
Posted on: February 07, 2008, 11:53:26 AM
Quote from: Veetje on February 07, 2008, 11:16:56 AM
Well I hope you will come to a point where you can be more in-to-touch with yourself physicially Simone...personally I would always be open to familiy and friends about what I will be doing
But I guess its easier for me since I dont have a spouse and am rather young at 23
Its something I am quite happy with and I always tell potential partners of my T issues beforehand
I don't have a spouse luckily (?), but I am older and run my own business which requires me to travel to various businesses constantly. I don't have to just deal with my customers, but theirs a well. I have to be careful and not upset that. I already stand out going into a place being as big as I am and having such long hair, I apparently leave an impression. And with what I charge, I probably should try to blend a bit better into the environment or look more "professional" than I do now.
You are lucky you have figured this out at a the age you have. You are a bit more free to experiment, people will just chalk it up to you being young, and most likely you do not have as much worry regarding your job, I didn't at that age. Your generation is much more open as well. I see what some kids are doing in high school and college these days and cannot imagine just how many beatings they would have taken at the schools I went to.
This morning, one of my colleagues at UPS grabbed my ponytail in one hand and a box knife in the other and threatened to cut off the ponytail. It was in jest, but since it is the subject of almost daily jests, it ceases to be only a joke (I am one of the shortest and certainly the oldest working at the warehouse, so I stand out anyway). The incident probably colored my morning posting, sorry.
The social environment was different when I was 23. It had taken me 5 years and 2 summer sessions to get a BA (probably due to the ADD that a counselor diagnosed when I was 60), and then 6 months to get the first full-time permanent job. My father died that year, too. Gender was way down on the priority list, and, even so, I wouldn't have known the first thing about how to deal with it (no internet then). Of course, I did know I was different from a very early age.
Simone
Quote from: Simone Louise on February 07, 2008, 03:45:39 PM
This morning, one of my colleagues at UPS grabbed my ponytail in one hand and a box knife in the other and threatened to cut off the ponytail. It was in jest, but since it is the subject of almost daily jests, it ceases to be only a joke (I am one of the shortest and certainly the oldest working at the warehouse, so I stand out anyway). The incident probably colored my morning posting, sorry.
Simone
Gee, that never happens to me... ::)
People are so damn predictable sometimes.
I think this is worse than just horseplay to us, my hair is like part of my identity anymore. May as well try to cut an ear off.
Society sucks, lets all pitch in and buy our own island, even if it means living in a hut.
Would still need internet access though. A hut with a satellite dish, I could live with that.
you know what's funny? it's seems like all the male bodied androgynes have or want long hair and I just keep hacking mine off! (I'm female bodied, if you didn't know or hadn't guessed...it's long now, but that's just because I'm lazy...we'll be taking care of that next weekend, hopefully...)
and as a simple request, please, for the love of everything holy and androgyne, let's not debate the definition of androgyne AGAIN. Seriously.
And sd, it's not your fault at all. We like to argue. :)
Quote from: Jaimey on February 10, 2008, 12:54:50 AM
And sd, it's not your fault at all. We like to argue. :)
No, we don't. (someone had to say it, though once again, I agree).
I too noticed the hair trend and it makes sense in terms of hiding what our bodies betray.
I was not sure, but your writing style does occasionally have a feminine twist to it (more honest emotion), almost poetic. Which to be quite honest, I love, I strive for that. Mine is typically male... bland. I struggle to inject any sense of emotion which in turn comes off sounding cheap.
I plan to be sheared soon.
Quote from: Jaimey on February 10, 2008, 12:54:50 AM
you know what's funny? it's seems like all the male bodied androgynes have or want long hair and I just keep hacking mine off!
Not all. I've never had long hair, I just don't want to get rid of it completely. Wouldn't be very androgynous, you see. :)
Although I do have my Samson moments. There was this one incident during my military days involving four drunken sergeants, myself (with almost as much alcohol in me as the four of them combined), and one of those electric shear gadgets. As a proof of my fighting spirit, the next morning my hair was still about as long as the regulations allowed.
Nfr
Quote from: Jaimey on February 10, 2008, 12:54:50 AM
you know what's funny? it's seems like all the male bodied androgynes have or want long hair and I just keep hacking mine off! (I'm female bodied, if you didn't know or hadn't guessed...it's long now, but that's just because I'm lazy...we'll be taking care of that next weekend, hopefully...)
Is this an extension of youthful rebellion? My mother would threaten to put a bow in my hair if I didn't have it cut immediately. I was often told to shave in the evening when I had shaved that morning. "A gentleman always keeps a tie in the glove compartment of his car--in case he needs one." On the other hand, I was never forced to wear a dress, as some female bodied androgynes have complained. Oh,and I, too, am lazy.
Simone
Quote from: sd on February 10, 2008, 04:17:46 AM
I was not sure, but your writing style does occasionally have a feminine twist to it (more honest emotion), almost poetic. Which to be quite honest, I love, I strive for that. Mine is typically male... bland. I struggle to inject any sense of emotion which in turn comes off sounding cheap.
That's interesting...I've always wondered how I speak (er, write). I think my writing is more like that than my speech. I have a hard time being honest and emotional when I speak...I'm too concerned with being polite and not making people uncomfortable. I'm working on it though. I feel like any emotion I say outloud to my friends/family sounds cheap too...everyone looks at me like I'm nuts. But then again, I know that I sound really detached when I talk to people that I'm not comfortable being emotional around. It just couldn't be easy, could it? (Thank goodness for places like this where we can actually be ourselves!!!!)
That was a pretty awesome compliment...I feel special! :icon_redface: I would like to be a writer, so it's always nice to get some feedback.
Quote from: Simone Louise on February 10, 2008, 11:24:34 AM
Is this an extension of youthful rebellion? My mother would threaten to put a bow in my hair if I didn't have it cut immediately. I was often told to shave in the evening when I had shaved that morning. "A gentleman always keeps a tie in the glove compartment of his car--in case he needs one." On the other hand, I was never forced to wear a dress, as some female bodied androgynes have complained. Oh,and I, too, am lazy.
Simone
You know what's really weird? As much of a tomboy as I was (in many ways) forced to be, my dad especially was all idealistic about girls having long hair. I had dresses and really boyish clothes, but I was so confused that I didn't have any ideas about what I wanted to be wearing...it took me long time to come into my own...i'm still not there completely. :D
Quote from: Jaimey on February 11, 2008, 07:10:44 PM
That's interesting...I've always wondered how I speak (er, write). I think my writing is more like that than my speech. I have a hard time being honest and emotional when I speak...I'm too concerned with being polite and not making people uncomfortable. I'm working on it though. I feel like any emotion I say outloud to my friends/family sounds cheap too...everyone looks at me like I'm nuts. But then again, I know that I sound really detached when I talk to people that I'm not comfortable being emotional around. It just couldn't be easy, could it? (Thank goodness for places like this where we can actually be ourselves!!!!)
That was a pretty awesome compliment...I feel special! :icon_redface: I would like to be a writer, so it's always nice to get some feedback.
Glad I could brighten your day.
As for becoming a writer, just start writing.
I am working on an autobiography, and while I consider much of my life normal, it is more exciting than some I have read about. Of course, I keep getting about 20 pages in and then junking it, but I am trying. Don't worry about proper English or anything, a great teacher once told me that great writers know when to break the rules. Just get started on it you will do fine. Just relax and try not to write when you are excited. ;)
Quote from: sd on February 11, 2008, 09:18:49 PM
Glad I could brighten your day.
You did indeed.
Quote
As for becoming a writer, just start writing.
I am working on an autobiography, and while I consider much of my life normal, it is more exciting than some I have read about. Of course, I keep getting about 20 pages in and then junking it, but I am trying. Don't worry about proper English or anything, a great teacher once told me that great writers know when to break the rules. Just get started on it you will do fine. Just relax and try not to write when you are excited. ;)
I write a lot. I can't help but use (mostly) proper English. :D I'm a big fan of the sentence fragment. Have you ever read "Now is the Hour" by Tom Spanbauer? He has a really interesting style. He made me realize how awesome incomplete sentences are. Plus, it works much better with my thought process. :D I write fiction. I can't write form personal experience.
I've junked so many stories...heh. It would be nice if I could finish a book too...but it's SO HARD to get it right! :laugh:
Quote from: Jaimey on February 11, 2008, 09:30:19 PMHave you ever read "Now is the Hour" by Tom Spanbauer?
Never heard of him, but I am not up on authors.
I go into book stores and I get lost (silly isn't it?). One of the last books I read was "The Zombie Survival Guide: Complete Protection from the Living Dead" so you can tell where my literary tastes lay... The gutter.
In my defense, I have taken the time to read some classics, Moby Dick, Orsen Wells and such, so I am not as bad as it seems.
Quote from: sd on February 11, 2008, 10:35:20 PM
Quote from: Jaimey on February 11, 2008, 09:30:19 PMHave you ever read "Now is the Hour" by Tom Spanbauer?
Never heard of him, but I am not up on authors.
I go into book stores and I get lost (silly isn't it?). One of the last books I read was "The Zombie Survival Guide: Complete Protection from the Living Dead" so you can tell where my literary tastes lay... The gutter.
It's easy to get lost in bookstores! I love bookstores! Spanbauer taught the (what's it called...hmm...I don't remember exactly) master class that Chuck Palahnuik took before he wrote Fight Club...if that means anything to you...I've never read Palahnuik. It's good though. It's about Rigby John, a gay teen growing up in Idaho in the 50s/60s...it's awesome.
I once read a book called "Nymphos of Rocky Flats"...my tastes often lay in the gutter as well... :eusa_shifty:
Quote from: Jaimey on February 12, 2008, 02:30:19 PM
Quote from: sd on February 11, 2008, 10:35:20 PM
Quote from: Jaimey on February 11, 2008, 09:30:19 PMHave you ever read "Now is the Hour" by Tom Spanbauer?
Never heard of him, but I am not up on authors.
I go into book stores and I get lost (silly isn't it?). One of the last books I read was "The Zombie Survival Guide: Complete Protection from the Living Dead" so you can tell where my literary tastes lay... The gutter.
It's easy to get lost in bookstores! I love bookstores! Spanbauer taught the (what's it called...hmm...I don't remember exactly) master class that Chuck Palahnuik took before he wrote Fight Club...if that means anything to you...I've never read Palahnuik. It's good though. It's about Rigby John, a gay teen growing up in Idaho in the 50s/60s...it's awesome.
I once read a book called "Nymphos of Rocky Flats"...my tastes often lay in the gutter as well... :eusa_shifty:
Ha ha
I loved Fight Club. I would say total head trip, but I figured it out half way in. Other peoples experience with it is fun to watch though.
Quote from: Jaimey on February 11, 2008, 09:30:19 PM
I'm a big fan of the sentence fragment. Have you ever read "Now is the Hour" by Tom Spanbauer? He has a really interesting style. He made me realize how awesome incomplete sentences are. Plus, it works much better with my thought process. :D I write fiction. I can't write form personal experience.
I'm fond of the fragment, it portrays speech really well with all the unsaid things, and also represents what it feels like to be bombarded by images.
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 13, 2008, 06:14:56 AM
I'm fond of the fragment, it portrays speech really well with all the unsaid things, and also represents what it feels like to be bombarded by images.
Exactly! Things make more sense in fragments sometimes. I think in fragments...sometimes I have to put forth effort to speak in complete sentences.
I never did see Fight Club, but I know what you're talking about. I should probably read some Palahnuik sometime...all my friends at Borders liked his stuff...hmm. Now I want to see Fight Club...
Quote from: Renate on February 13, 2008, 09:38:28 PM
Well, the most fragmented I can think of off hand is Molly Bloom in James Joyce's "Ulysses".
Renate
Nell was pretty fragmented...but that was a movie. hehehe.
you think if I lived by myself in the woods for a few years, Liam Neeson (? how do you spell his name?) would come rescue me? (ehem...I'm a little :icon_drunk:)