this may sound a stupid question, but how do you know if you pass?
whenever anyone looks at me in the street i'm terrified that they know i'm trans, and when people talk to me as a girl then i'm still wondering if they're just being nice or polite. i know i shouldn't care about what strangers think but its so hard not to.
and when people use gender neutral language, or 'mate' or 'guys' its so hard to stop having doubts... though i know my girlfriends get called the same. its so annoying when people do that.
anyway, so when did you 'know' that you passed?
jenny
x x
You don't know. You only know when you don't pass. On the other hand you only pass only when you have stopped worrying about it.
To me, I don't know if I truely pass or not but I don't care anymore. I guess I pass as people call me by the fem pronouns and no one gives me a second look in the rest rooms or dressing rooms. So, I guess I pass. The point is, I don't care what they think. I try to be as fem as possible.
Sheila
I think that the only way you really know you pass is by experience. People do treat women very differently than men. And it just feels different. Now it's also pretty easy to know when you are totally outed. The hard part comes in those in-between times when people are simply polite. For me the first time I was absolutely sure I passed was when I sat on a bench and a hair dresser came out and sat by me and started up a conversation. Another time the same thing happened with a makeup artist from a store. This week I was out of town and met up with a friend. He held doors for me and the whole bit. None of the hotel staff paid one bit of notice. Our waiter said things like: What can I get you ma'am? He treated me totally different than my male friend. Somehow you just know....most of the time.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
You'll pass the best when you are fully comfortable with yourself in public. Yes, there are things that you'll be able to do to improve your abilities to pass as a female. You should take note and correct those behaviours which give you a way. They must become a part of your personality. However, the biggest thing you'll do will be to just get out in public, hold your head high, and enjoy life.
Chin up!
Cindi
Well, IMO it is pretty obvious. No weird looks, no hairy looks, no second looks when you speak. Miss here, miss there. Would you like help out with those groceries to your car, miss? (the grocery clerk) I need your signature here, miss. (the UPS guy) Some stamps today ma'am? (the post office clerk). About a month ago, I was taken to the hospital with severe migraines, the nurse insisted that I undergo a pregnancy test even though I had told her that "I wasn't pregnant". Eventually, when my personal physician showed up and showed her my medical history, she understood why I didn't need a urine test to determine pregnancy. It is these little details that speak for themselves.
tink :icon_chick:
Pre-transition, between SP1 and SP2
Early transition (0-3 months full-time/HRT), SP1 to SP2
Mid transition (3 months -6 months) SP2 to SP3
Late transition (6 months-1 year) SP3 to SP4
Post-transition, but pre-op (1 year - now), SP4 to SP6, though being pre-op causes issues.
This is in my case really.
I estimated I would always be within SP0 to SP2 when I went full-time. I didn't think I'd ever reach SP3.
Tink pretty much covered it. And Cindi covered what Tink didn't. After awhile you just 'know' it and they all do too. It 'comes' to you that its been weeks, months years since you realized someone had noticed anything about you that wasn't 'chiming' right for them.
Come to think of it, it's been weeks, months, years since something wasn't 'chiming' right about you for you as well!! Then you pass. And KNOW it.
Ah, the Kate Grimaldi levels.... Kate is a very bright woman and her scales make some sense, but are hardly set in stone.
Nichole
One of the ways is when you run into one of those anomolous gender things from your past, like a subscription in your old name or ID in your old sex, and they refuse to believe that it's you. Even face to face, in person. Then you know for sure you're passing.
Dennis
when u know ur a dude, everybody treats u as a dude & u forget 'bout passin. u just live & look like any bio dude w/o worryin about "lookin or actin" like a dude. this is when u know.
You know you pass when people ask if your father is going senile for calling you "He/him" in public... hes obviously nuts LoL...
You know you pass when your order a slice of pie at Village Inn and the waiter "forgets" put it on your bill and gives you one of those really huge smiles...
You know you pass when you rarely ever have to pay for your own drinks at a bar...
You know you pass when your being searched and the female searcher dosnt realize anything is amis or out of place...
You know you pass when you have to argue with bill collectors/customerservice people over the phone cuz they refuse to believe there speaking with (male name)
You know you pass when you can throw just anything on, no makeup, messy hair and are still mamed, missed and flirted with at the bus stop hehehe
And you deffinatly know you pass when you speak of your ex fience and everyone assumes that HE was a jerk and should have never hurt you like that :)
When at the hospital you get asked by a Doctor or Nurse for the date of your last period, PAP Smear test and your last Mamogram.
Rebecca
i read these threads and realize that i haven't worried about passing for a very long time. bad me! ::) do i care about passing? surely! ! do i pass? unquestionably yes, yet after so many years, the "when's" turn into countless experiences that are too many to mention on here.
I don't really worry about it seriously, and if my ID outs me, and/or I have to forcefully out myself to claim the ID is mine to a place like a bank/post office, that's fine with me, sort of educates people a little. They wouldn't know I had transitioned otherwise, so it shows them trans isnt about Jerry Springer people, but real live boys and girls who looks like just regular boys and girls, too.
Speaking of which, a bank clerk when I went to cash a money order recently, she checked the check, went in my bank account, asked for ID. I did all this without worrying, signed the name. She eventually slipped pronoun, and my mom who was with me corrected her and just before that she asked how the name change was going and if I was to do it soon. In short she guessed by the mismatch in ID, since she had no problem at all with referring me in the female form before and after (it didnt require a conscious effort). Plus the fact that everyone else who doesn't see my ID never questions their use of Miss/Mademoiselle/Madame (yes I speak French) when concerning me.
Like today....on the telephone..
I phoned up the hospital where the endo is based that I have been seeing and complain that they have notified me by post that they have changed my appointment to a later one.......the secretary asks me a whole heap of questions which I don't usually get....name, address, date of birth etc........I ask her why she is asking so many questions.......she says...'well we have you down here as a 'Mr' and quite clearly you are not....'we will make sure this error is emended emmediately'.......
i really seriously wasn't even trying..honestly!! when my son was in the hospital for being dehyrdated. my wife had went out to the car..i was dressed completely male including wearing my hat backwards, nearly every doctor or nurse that came in asked me if i was mom!! it was touching accept for the fact i will never be able to give birth...though it would be nice!!!
Mickie
Quote from: mickie on February 07, 2008, 11:22:51 AM
i really seriously wasn't even trying..honestly!! when my son was in the hospital for being dehyrdated. my wife had went out to the car..i was dressed completely male including wearing my hat backwards, nearly every doctor or nurse that came in asked me if i was mom!! it was touching accept for the fact i will never be able to give birth...though it would be nice!!!
Mickie
That figures...baseball hat on backwards, no make up ..hoody top maybe.....it's no wonder they thought you were female.....that is the secret of course...don't try.....and clothes isn't related to gender...
so true berliegh, but it did kind of offend my wife when the one nurse did it while she was standing there..i know it kinda hurt her.
Mickie
Jenny,
I don't know if I truly pass or not, but I get ma'amed all the time. Even yesterday when I went to the pharmacy drop off my scripts for meds I gave them two forms of id, both has my male name on them, and they still ma'amed me and then today when I went to pick up the meds the computer system even had a "F" in the sex box. So as some others here has already stated you will just know when you don't pass.
Quote from: LynnER on February 07, 2008, 01:41:55 AM
You know you pass when your order a slice of pie at Village Inn and the waiter "forgets" put it on your bill and gives you one of those really huge smiles...
You know you pass when you rarely ever have to pay for your own drinks at a bar...
You know you pass when your being searched and the female searcher dosnt realize anything is amis or out of place...
You know you pass when you have to argue with bill collectors/customerservice people over the phone cuz they refuse to believe there speaking with (male name)
You know you pass when you can throw just anything on, no makeup, messy hair and are still mamed, missed and flirted with at the bus stop hehehe
Ditto... And...
You know you pass when a girlfriend asks you for a tampon.
You know you pass when you tell a friend you can't have kids but you'd "rather not talk about it". They guess 30 reasons it could be and they still never get it.
You know you pass when the resident homophobe at work lets everybody know he has a crush on you, and nobody sees anything wrong with this.
You know you pass when the admitting nurse asks for your last period, you tell her you can't & don't have them, and she guesses every reason except the right one. Then I told her just for the shock value :)
Quote from: mickie on February 07, 2008, 02:20:55 PM
so true berliegh, but it did kind of offend my wife when the one nurse did it while she was standing there..i know it kinda hurt her.
Mickie
I think it must be hard to be married to a female when you want to be a female. I couldn't handle that kind of relationship.......
I think it must be hard to be married to a female when you want to be a female. I couldn't handle that kind of relationship.......
[/quote]
You have to be married to a very strong person, to be married to another person of the same gender when they are not Gay. I believe that the older you are the better the chances of staying together. It depends on how long you have been married too. With all that it's still a crap shoot.
Knowing that you pass is like what all of you have said. If people don't flinch and call you by the right pronoun and they don't take a second look. When people are comfortable around you. I was asked by my new doctor when my last period was and how many children I had and how I had them. Then I broke the news. I know she was making me feel comfortable and giving me my uppers of the day.
Sheila
I have an experiment that people could do when they are ready, of course.
Get on a bus or train full of teenagers (when they are leaving school). If no one takes a second glance at you, laughs or mocks you, then you definitely pass. Teenagers tend to be extremely perceptive, and most of the time, if someone reads you, it is more likely to be a teenager.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on February 07, 2008, 09:07:34 PM
I have an experiment that people could do when they are ready, of course.
Get on a bus or train full of teenagers (when they are leaving school). If no one takes a second glance at you, laughs or mocks you, then you definitely pass. Teenagers tend to be extremely perceptive, and most of the time, if someone reads you, it is more likely to be a teenager.
tink :icon_chick:
Oh, I agree. Early in my transition I would always hate riding the train during after school times.
When a friend that I've hung out with at least 10-15 times in the last few months didn't know. Someone told him and when we went out last nite he asked me if it was true and said he literally didn't have any idea. He was dead serious too, not putting me on. I told him the truth but maybe I should have just let him keep wondering. >:D
Audrey
The group of teenagers test is absolute in its quality. Especially girls, They notice absolutely everything! If you pass among teens you pass. *laughing*
Quote from: Nichole W. on February 08, 2008, 06:21:12 AM
The group of teenagers test is absolute in its quality. Especially girls, They notice absolutely everything! If you pass among teens you pass. *laughing*
I think it's very easy with teenage girls........I used to find it was men aged around 20 which was much harder....
Whatever I'm doing these days it's working.....
Quote from: Tink on February 07, 2008, 09:07:34 PM
I have an experiment that people could do when they are ready, of course.
Get on a bus or train full of teenagers (when they are leaving school). If no one takes a second glance at you, laughs or mocks you, then you definitely pass. Teenagers tend to be extremely perceptive, and most of the time, if someone reads you, it is more likely to be a teenager.
tink :icon_chick:
That is scary as all hell. :icon_help:
Quote from: Tink on February 07, 2008, 09:07:34 PM
Get on a bus or train full of teenagers (when they are leaving school). If no one takes a second glance at you, laughs or mocks you, then you definitely pass. Teenagers tend to be extremely perceptive, and most of the time, if someone reads you, it is more likely to be a teenager.
tink :icon_chick:
Little kids too. Plenty of times I'd pass around adults, but a young child would stare, and sometimes ask me directly which gender I was.
y2g
If your caucasian mtf,
try passing a bunch of teen african-americans
for some reason, which I think is cultural,
I've been read 30x more by them
than adut or teen caucasians.
I think that it comes from having very
narrowly defined idea in their minds
of what a women looks like and
that since we're a different culture,
they are more inclined to not looking
or recognizing gender cues in the face.
they are more
inclined to look at the body.
I'm the same, I often find african women
with very hard "male" face. But, its more
because I'm not used to seeing gender cues
in the face. So, I really more on the body too.
to Berliegh,
yes, it has been somewhat hard for us, but i was honest with her up front before we got married about everything. she and i have no secrets, i knew i could trust her when i told her and she didn't leave, she didn't think it was funny or at all wierd, disgusting or anything. most of the time she enjoys it. plus, at the moment i don't plan on having surgery. i have plans to finish before i ever become a completely physical woman. she is a very, very, very, strong woman. no pun intended, but they way we are, she picks me up and carries me, and i just so love it. never did i think i would have a woman who would carry me like that and enjoy it as much as she does. yes, i have had a few kids ask stuff, he's a girl right mommy? why do you have girl hair?....lol
Mickie
I think it also depends on the people in your area's world-view.
A girl told me that the biggest things that gave me away was my height, stature, and hands. (Just about everything in other words ::) ) But no one would catch on in this town because people just don't look that deep, they don't look for the inconsistencies. Also, since my face is quite female and I carry myself with confidence, it makes people think that i'm female. Works for me! ;D
As for the cultural test, I think that holds true. Its mostly the black and asian exchange girls who catch on.
When I first began in 2002 I was horrified of being read, the school bus full of teenage girls NO FREEQIN WAY I would have ever done that. Zoom 5 years later I have no issues, I don't get treated any differently in public (i.e. grocery shopping, clothes shopping, eating out whatever) then any other woman, no stares, no confusing looks, nada even last year in my bikini on the beach and bring on that school bus I have no doubts I wouldn't get a second look except maybe being judged like other women, her skirts to short is the one I get often :) LOL
Ah yes the question of questions. For me this is an easy one. My wife, kids and I go to the drive in all the time in the summer. One night I just slipped on jeans, gender neutral type blouse, and transparent make up. Our children are 7 and under 2 of whom are male, well 3 now that the baby is born. So since i usually have to take the boys to the loo as neccesary I tend to be conservative on my femine appearance. Anyways, I went to use the loo by myself. Since I was dressed subtly I felt best to go to the male loo as not to cause problems. LOL, everyone (male and female) stopped me to inform me the female room was across the hall. I acted like I couldn't see the sign through the crowd of guys (it was intermission) lined up and apologized and proceeded to the proper room. I felt if I passes when done up subtly then when I go all out with my appearance I must pass hands down. Next rip up to the drive in I decided to go as me. Soft wedge shoes, denim skirt, pink top, wig and make up done properly. Well, either I passed hands down or there was a lot of blind guys there. I had guys make those rude comments they tend to make, had a couple give me their numbers and wanted me to come to their cars to watch the movie, or at least pull my car up to theirs etc. Yep that did it- i have no doubt, but still get nervous at times.
Kim :angel:
i'm still terrified of being read, but it happens less frequently than it used to :). my confidence does really let me down though, i really panic if somebody looks at me in a loo and just stare at the floor - they must read me straight away or think i'm very odd!
jenny
x x
When i was pre name change, id ALWAYS get 'um, ma'am, is this your card?' when using my debit card, needless to say i went to cash fast!
When i was talking to a lesbian friend recently, she was talking about how she was worried using the womens room about being accused of being a guy (shes butch) i was all 'yeah i know' i could have SWORN she knew my past.... evidently not. because when i said i worried, she was why? i finally said why, and she was osh really?
then again, i finally got clocked at work... this lesbian barmaid on shift with me on fri night tricked me into admiting it confirming her hunch... but apparently it was because i was too feminine and played with my hair too much to be a natal female? whut? me? feminine? got to be joking!
I guess its funny, i pass wearing a baggy hoodie and baggy jeans n sneakers... so i guess thats passing when you can wear mens clothes and still be seen as female!
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on February 10, 2008, 03:31:48 PM
When i was pre name change, id ALWAYS get 'um, ma'am, is this your card?' when using my debit card, needless to say i went to cash fast!
That used to happen to me before transition ......especially in ASDA......'ma'am, is this your card'? 'have you stolen it'?
Quote from: Rachael on February 10, 2008, 03:31:48 PM
I guess its funny, i pass wearing a baggy hoodie and baggy jeans n sneakers... so i guess thats passing when you can wear mens clothes and still be seen as female!
Me too......I pass with a black hoodie, jeans and trainers.....actually even more so than things that are ultra feminine...
Looking at most of the pics I have seen in avatars I would have thought you was genetic female. I don't pass well now. But a few years ago I could ride a bus without being laughed at. But I am not as thin as i was then but i am working on it. 140 pounds is my goal being 5'11 I think it will do for now.
I think that just trying to be ultra fem anymore is more of a dead giveaway than anything. If you look around at what the majority of women wear you will find it is mostly, you guessed it, jeans and t-shirts or sweaters. Sometimes nice dress pants and less frequently skirts and dresses and heels.
At my previous job (7 months HRT) even before I made the transistion I got called maam etc. quite frequently even while wearing my blue coveralls at work!!
Audrey
I agree. Going ultra glam is an almost sure bet for getting read. I know what girls will be wearing where I go and just dress to blend in. More often than not, that means jeans and a cute top.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
yeah, im really not a feminine person.... when that lesbian said it was because i was too feminine... i was wearing ballet flats, black dresslacks and a tee... no jewelry, and pretty much no makeup.... feminine? :P
Thats the thing Audrey: a lota girls dislike skirts apart from sometimes when the mood takes them... some do, some dont... at my uni, 80% of the girls in my class wear jeans pretty much consistently...
R >:D
ROFL ;D well, unfortunately some people think that by dressing ultra fem, a.k.a. trashy, slutty...(high heels, red dress way above the knees, lots and lots of hair and makeup, and blue eye shadow) is going to fool people. There is nothing worse, IMO, than a woman who is constantly pulling her mini skirt down, sitting with her legs wide open when wearing skirts ::), sweating kilograms and kilograms of makeup and bending her knees when walking in high heels! sheesh! :P Total give away!
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on February 11, 2008, 07:47:03 PM
ROFL ;D well, unfortunately some people think that by dressing ultra fem, a.k.a. trashy, slutty...(high heels, red dress way above the knees, lots and lots of hair and makeup, and blue eye shadow) is going to fool people. There is nothing worse, IMO, than a woman who is constantly pulling her mini skirt down, sitting with her legs wide open when wearing skirts ::), sweating kilograms and kilograms of makeup and bending her knees when walking in high heels! sheesh! :P Total give away!
tink :icon_chick:
:-* :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Hmm, I'd never noticed women doing that, Tink.
That's 'ultra-femme?' Sounds like ueber-camp to me. ;)
N~
I'm very observant, and you would be surprised what I see out there... ;)
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on February 11, 2008, 08:03:06 PM
I'm very observant, and you would be surprised what I see out there... ;)
tink :icon_chick:
Hardly. Yes 'women' and women do it. It's just so ... so ... so foul! hahahahaha
I don't know where you all live.
But, women, even in college here
dress better than
just jeans and sweats or T's. Jeezzz.
Maybe Mcgill is upper crust HAHA...
No, its a public university, and its dirt cheap,
so we're not all driving ferrari's.
That's what I couldn't understand in the suburban US
(which is most of the US), when I lived there for awhile,
how awfull people dressed on a regular basis.
Without going glam, there's tons of things in between
full on casual and red carpet that creates a much more
individual style than jeans and T's.
I don't really know why it would be so much fun to "blend in".
When someone dresses nice and stylish (mini skirts and crazy heels
and thick makeup is plain cheezy and no self-respecting women would
wear that combination).
I think bad fashion sense in general, not just standing out, is what can out you the quickest. Of course, if you look good and stylish, people will look at you more so if something else is amiss (voice, body proportions or whatever, there is a bigger chance of someone spotting you).
Its a difference between driving a Porsche or a beat up Honda and hoping nobody will notice who exits the car.
Um, When going out sure, when doing anything vaguely formal sure, but for 9am or 8am lectures, you WONT see any female dolled up to the 9s... ;)
Sure i and my classmates do wear nicer things too, but its always within street clothing boundries for comfort etc... when your sat around or walking around all day, some things are just practica....
Tink: :o i know some girls that do all those things, and NO, thier not trans :S
R>:D
Most off days I'm in casual mode (a cami or tank, mid thigh skirt of some type (cold days long skirt) and a 3/4 quarter sleeve top) work days scrubs BORING although I do have some cute tops it's just boring. OH ya and some type of low heel in the house bare foot, work I wear crocks or the like.
If its uncomfortable, i wont wear it unless theres is a good reason... like my housemate was saying to me the other night when i mentioned my idiot shoes at work, she was saying that you can tell which womens shoes are designed BY women... thier the ones you can stand up in and not feel like your in a vice :P
R >:D
yes, hoodies ft flipping win :D
comfy baggy uni hoodie is like a uniform here... although the Sab officers and other union officers all wear thier named ones, like i wear my wellfare committee one with my name on ^_^ its a statement of union politics :D
R >:D
Quote from: Audrey on February 11, 2008, 02:43:17 PM
I think that just trying to be ultra fem anymore is more of a dead giveaway than anything. If you look around at what the majority of women wear you will find it is mostly, you guessed it, jeans and t-shirts or sweaters. Sometimes nice dress pants and less frequently skirts and dresses and heels.
At my previous job (7 months HRT) even before I made the transistion I got called maam etc. quite frequently even while wearing my blue coveralls at work!!
Audrey
Exactely my point....I'm about as far removed as you could get from a usual TS image.....
I wear denim jackets and jeans, flat shoes or boots and no make up just like the majority of females around...
I can wear overalls as well and it doesn't change anything......clothes has nothing to do with what you are like physically..
That Kennedy was shot by Elvis on the grassy knoll who is really a martian dragqueen?
:o im not mad afterall!
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on February 12, 2008, 09:51:44 AM
That Kennedy was shot by Elvis on the grassy knoll who is really a martian dragqueen?
:o im not mad afterall!
R >:D
You've lost me......what medication are you on?
same as you love ;)
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on February 12, 2008, 10:03:27 AM
same as you love ;)
R >:D
I was trying to extract the point you were trying to make..
Quote from: Rachael on February 12, 2008, 09:51:44 AM
That Kennedy was shot by Elvis on the grassy knoll who is really a martian dragqueen?
:o im not mad afterall!
R >:D
I don't get the point either, but 10/10 for the comment!
:icon_tenisclap: :icon_tenisclap: :icon_tenisclap: :icon_tenisclap: :icon_tenisclap:
As far as attire goes I agree with the couple of posts that say it depends where you are. Up here where I live in Canada it's mixed. At a mall you see just as many skirts as you do jeans or slacks. And it all depends what type of skirt you wear. I hate slacks myself and fail to see how a denim skirt is really any different than your jeans - and I have gg friends who agree. As for my work though I have no choice - our uniforms are standard for all officers ( by-law enforcement officer). But where I am posted the offices I patrol I see more skirts than anything. But inside the port area the men are of course in jeans and such as are the gals. So it all depends. And remember, some religions ban women from wearing pants of any type as well. So when one judges one must tread lightly.
Kim :angel:
I don't think that anyone was passing judgement just stating the way it is.
A
Quote from: Nichole on February 11, 2008, 07:58:20 PM
That's 'ultra-femme?' Sounds like ueber-camp to me. ;)
N~
That's why I said:
Quote from: Tink on February 11, 2008, 07:47:03 PM
some people think that by dressing ultra fem, a.k.a. trashy, slutty
tink :icon_chick:
;) You missed the rest of the sentence! ;D
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on February 12, 2008, 08:13:03 PM
Quote from: Nichole on February 11, 2008, 07:58:20 PM
That's 'ultra-femme?' Sounds like ueber-camp to me. ;)
N~
That's why I said:
Quote from: Tink on February 11, 2008, 07:47:03 PM
some people think that by dressing ultra fem, a.k.a. trashy, slutty
tink :icon_chick:
;) You missed the rest of the sentence! ;D
tink :icon_chick:
How many times have I told ya, YOU are the observant chick, I am the flighty one!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:icon_hug: :icon_hug:
Nichole
Tbh kim, offices are smart formal places, so duh, skirts... OFFICE attire...
the docks is labour... so work clothes... its a no brainer....
dress to what your doing...
Berleigh: in the aid of lulz dear...
R >:D
Well, sometimes I just think people are being nice. There has been a lot more niceness around here since the Susan Stanton case.
It's when: you try to go into the men's room, and have on guy looking clothes, and an employee tells you "You're going into the wrong restroom".
It's when someone mistakes you for your daughter's Mother.
It's when men you don't know open doors for you.
It's when the girls at the office ask you to go to lunch with them (sans men)
It's when you take a patient to the breast clinic, and the nurse asks you if YOU are here for your mammogram.
Now people have started calling me "Ma'am" on the phone without knowing my name.
My boss and I were talking yesterday and I brought up this company that we will be working with soon. He said he had worked with them before and that one time he heard about this girl that worked for them was actually a guy, and one of the people from our company asked her out and found out "it was a guy". My boss said, "I mean, can you imagine that? The guy that went out with her was ridiculed for months." I asked him if he saw this "girl that was actually a guy." His was reply was, "Uh, no! I've NEVER known anybody like that!" <CUE INTERNAL LAUGHTER> My boss has asked me out several times, in a innocent kind of way that a boss could get away with :)
Just thought this was a relevant story.
Amy :icon_chick:
Quote from: amy2003 on February 22, 2008, 11:21:22 PM
My boss and I were talking yesterday and I brought up this company that we will be working with soon. He said he had worked with them before and that one time he heard about this girl that worked for them was actually a guy, and one of the people from our company asked her out and found out "it was a guy". My boss said, "I mean, can you imagine that? The guy that went out with her was ridiculed for months." I asked him if he saw this "girl that was actually a guy." His was reply was, "Uh, no! I've NEVER known anybody like that!" <CUE INTERNAL LAUGHTER> My boss has asked me out several times, in a innocent kind of way that a boss could get away with :)
Just thought this was a relevant story.
Amy :icon_chick:
Brilliant!
Quote from: amy2003 on February 22, 2008, 11:21:22 PM
My boss has asked me out several times, in a innocent kind of way that a boss could get away with :)
Just thought this was a relevant story.
Amy :icon_chick:
Gee Amy, I wonder if your boss has ever heard of the term 'sexual harassment'. Should ask him some time, just to see what he does... >:D >:D >:D
Quote from: lady amarant on February 23, 2008, 09:58:35 AMGee Amy, I wonder if your boss has ever heard of the term 'sexual harassment'. Should ask him some time, just to see what he does... >:D >:D >:D
Well, my job is not and has never been in jeorpardy, so I don't consider it sexual harassment. He started by asking me out to lunch, which everybody at work goes out to lunch together sometimes, but he would only ask when nobody else was around, and he would act sheepish when he did it. But the most obvious was when he asked me to go to a mutual acquaintance's Super Bowl Party. I told him I had to fix my kitchen sink (which was true), so he went to the plumber who works for us and told him to send a worker out to fix my sink, to which the plumber replied that he would if my boss wasn't always on his case of being behind schedule, to which my boss replied, "I don't care. Send someone to her house today so she will go to this party with me." I was standing there and heard this. I enjoy talking to my boss. We have a lot in common, but's he's got daughters my age. I don't do that... ever!
But, yes, I truly believe him to be innocent. But if it ever does become a problem, our company has a zero-tolerance sexual harrassment policy.
Quote
But, yes, I truly believe him to be innocent. But if it ever does become a problem, our company has a zero-tolerance sexual harrassment policy.
Well, I was kinda joking ... but good to know that you have backup if things ever do go South.
Quote from: lady amarant on February 08, 2008, 08:08:29 AM
Quote from: Tink on February 07, 2008, 09:07:34 PM
I have an experiment that people could do when they are ready, of course.
Get on a bus or train full of teenagers (when they are leaving school). If no one takes a second glance at you, laughs or mocks you, then you definitely pass. Teenagers tend to be extremely perceptive, and most of the time, if someone reads you, it is more likely to be a teenager.
tink :icon_chick:
That is scary as all hell. :icon_help:
It was by far the most traumatic incident I went through in my early days. I stopped taking public transportation for a couple years after that. What hell is it with teenagers anyway?
Quote from: Hypatia on February 24, 2008, 08:51:45 AM
Quote from: lady amarant on February 08, 2008, 08:08:29 AM
Quote from: Tink on February 07, 2008, 09:07:34 PM
I have an experiment that people could do when they are ready, of course.
Get on a bus or train full of teenagers (when they are leaving school). If no one takes a second glance at you, laughs or mocks you, then you definitely pass. Teenagers tend to be extremely perceptive, and most of the time, if someone reads you, it is more likely to be a teenager.
tink :icon_chick:
That is scary as all hell. :icon_help:
It was by far the most traumatic incident I went through in my early days. I stopped taking public transportation for a couple years after that. What hell is it with teenagers anyway?
on the tube or on a bus....I don't have a problem with them at all...
It's when: you try to go into the men's room, and have on guy looking clothes, and an employee tells you "You're going into the wrong restroom".
It's when someone mistakes you for your daughter's Mother.
It's when men you don't know open doors for you.
i second all these, my wife put her car in the ditch and i had to go get her out a week or so ago now. some guys stopped to pull us out, (since this happened to me before i had toe ropes), i was just gonna try and drive it out but the tires were shot pretty much, especially for snow. these guys stopped to help and asked my wife if she needed help, she told him she was waiting on her husband and i heard em ask if he was here to which i responded that would be me. either they didn't hear me or didn't believe her or me when she told him. wearing pink hair ties i guess doesn't really help...lol. she told me later on that they thought i was a girl. yesterday was great as well, for the first time in a long while, i wore my hair up in just a ponytail and percentage wise i was referred to as 90 percent of the day as female. i definitely enjoyed that. i'm still working on my boss that if people think that i'm female to just leave it alone, i learned a long time ago it's just worth fighting over it, and i've informed him i'm not really offended by it anyway.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Mickie
knowing when you pass:
grade C or above?
R >:D
extremely funny Rachael, as i am assuming you are being completely sarcastic, if we are going by grades, yeah i use to think that i was a grade C or lower and i would never pass because of my really deep voice, half the time i say nothing and i get stuff done for me..lol. but when somebody compares you to your spouse and sis(in-law) in the same sentence, i IMHO, i can only feel grade A!!
Mickie
Tbh, this is a silly topic, deserving a silly answer....
you never know when you pass... because people may just be being polite, or you may pass. how do you find out?
'hey, what sex do you think i am?' doesnt quite work does it?
only way to find out is out yourself, then your not passing ;)
So best solution is rock on and stop caring. i did, and my life is 100000% smoother and easier.
Sure its a big deal, and it dominates your mind for a bit. but it does go away.
when do you stop passing?
when you ARE that. you really cant pass as a girl when you are one. and when you are one, you pass!
We see features most dont, and look at a random face, mostly women, and youll see those features you think stop you passing...
most people only take cursory note of gender markers...
no stubble, no shaddow, long hair, in womens clothes, most will go female
beard, instant guy....
the rest is just how you look....
R >:D
absolutely, that's why i don't worry about it too much, people see what they want to see. where i work, i have seen actual genetic girls come in with more facial hair than i will ever have, and all i can think is girl go home and shave, cuz that's just nasty in my book, but to each his, i mean her own...lol. and you are completely correct, this is a silly topic, as same with the damn restroom discussion.
Mickie
Quote from: mickie on February 25, 2008, 02:45:08 PM
and you are completely correct, this is a silly topic, as same with the damn restroom discussion.
Mickie
I couldn't agree more about both topics.
We all know which bathroom to use, or if there is a neutral one to use it if we are uncertain. Period.
As for passing, you know if you do when you know which bathroom to use. But, like Rach said, it's problematic to base your 'passing' on what others say. There are any number of reasons they might answer 'yes' without being 'right.' *sigh* And any number of reasons the reverse might occur as well.
If there were a guidebook LOL maybe both would occur more easily. I'd suggest anyone who has a real interest in 'whether of not I pass' and 'which bathroom do I go to?' write the book and let's allow these threads to fade away peaceably.
Nichole
good way to check: go to a place where mens and womens loos are in different places, ask where the toilets are ;)
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on February 25, 2008, 11:46:40 PM
good way to check: go to a place where mens and womens loos are in different places, ask where the toilets are ;)
R >:D
I've done that a few times in the early days and they always sent me to the ladies..
Quote from: Audrey on February 11, 2008, 02:43:17 PM
I think that just trying to be ultra fem anymore is more of a dead giveaway than anything. If you look around at what the majority of women wear you will find it is mostly, you guessed it, jeans and t-shirts or sweaters. Sometimes nice dress pants and less frequently skirts and dresses and heels.
I just have to buck the crowd here and say I disagree with this. I think the problem is not that we get read by dressing feminine. The problem is when we don't know how to do it right.
Because I pass
much better in feminine attire. I see everyone repeating as gospel truth that you can't be feminine. That's well and good, but in my case, bitter experience has shown the reverse to be true. I always wear skirts and dresses now. No exceptions. However, I do it right and achieve success that way.
A couple years ago, I was in despair and actually tried heeding the constant advice to avoid femininity. Nope! That got me nowhere. So I went back to skirts and dresses, and am so glad I did!
I'm an individual and trans life is not one size fits all. My situation is just different from the majority, I guess. My face and my complexion are the sort that benefits from makeup--as long as one knows how to apply it skillfully and tastefully. I always dress tastefully and in accordance with how other women dress. My age, social milieu, and professional career are such that I fit in well by dressing well. My results speak for themselves: Everyone consistently calls me "ma'am" without a second glance, without hesitation. I have not heard the words "sir" or "he" once since going fulltime. Not once. So what I'm doing is definitely working for me.
Hypatia says the problem with wearing skirts and dresses is not the garments themselves, it's knowing how to wear them in a way that fits in with how other women wear them. Because other women do wear them a lot, at least in my milieu.
tbh, its swings and roundabouts. what works for one, wont work for another...
Just because I seem to pass best wearing boys jeans, sneakers, and a university hoodie. doesnt mean someone else will, or that i cant be feminine. just go with your personality, because at the end of the day, if your relaxed, nobodies got reason to care...
R >:D
Quote from: Tink on February 11, 2008, 07:47:03 PM
ROFL ;D well, unfortunately some people think that by dressing ultra fem, a.k.a. trashy, slutty...(high heels, red dress way above the knees, lots and lots of hair and makeup, and blue eye shadow) is going to fool people.
Right on, Tink. In my humble opinion, all the blue eyeshadow in the world needs to be collected and placed into a container, weighted with lead, and sunk to the bottom of the Marianas Trench. I have never seen it look good on anyone.
Posted on: February 26, 2008, 01:11:50 PM
Quote from: Rachael on February 26, 2008, 01:07:20 PMjust go with your personality, because at the end of the day, if your relaxed, nobodies got reason to care...
Exactly, Rach. When I look good, I feel good, and that is what works.
Posted on: February 26, 2008, 01:15:13 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on February 25, 2008, 08:24:11 AM
on the tube or on a bus....I don't have a problem with them at all...
There are those of us who have never had to make any effort with looks.
There are others of us who started out far behind, and by dint of estrogen, laser, and a steep learning curve, are now succeeding. What I lack in natural looks, I make up for with intelligence and ability to learn.
Posted on: February 26, 2008, 01:27:18 PM
Quote from: Rachael on February 25, 2008, 01:53:11 PMonly way to find out is out yourself, then your not passing ;)
That's true! I first realized that I was attaining success when I outed myself to someone, assuming she'd already read me, but she hadn't. From then on I stopped talking about it!
I will admit that if you work in a formal environment (office, etc.) than skirts and heels it is. So if that works for you I say go for it. I am kind of envious as it would be fun to dress up for work more. I wear cute scrubs at work but no heels or anything. When I go out, which isn't often, I am going to try dressing a little nicer. I got a super cute top at maurices that is more dressy than casual, and I am going to get some cute heels and long jeans to go with it. Usually it is just a tee and jeans and tennis shoes "yawn".
Audrey
Yeah, Im a chef so all i wear is jeans and tees, then my whites over... teh boring and teh frumpy.... all the waitresses are all dressed up, so are the bar staff, i feel like the ugly duckling along with the other kitchen staff.
R >:D
Quote from: Rachael on February 27, 2008, 12:48:05 AM
Yeah, Im a chef so all i wear is jeans and tees, then my whites over... teh boring and teh frumpy.... all the waitresses are all dressed up, so are the bar staff, i feel like the ugly duckling along with the other kitchen staff.
R >:D
I dress like that all the time ..lol....I wear jeans t -shirt, a plain hooded coat, or Denim jacket, sometimes trainers or long boots and no make up.....I don't have a need to dress up as I feel comfortable with who I am. I'm never percieved as male..
too slow love, i made that joke a page ago ;)
R >:D
Still catching up here. It's not in how you dress, but in how you act that people normally catch. I can dress ultra fem or whatever and don't have a problem. However, when I've told people I'm TS, the common reaction is disbelief and it is often followed by "but you are so natural" or that "you act so womanly". My response is that I'm just being myself, which is true.
Anyhow, you KNOW that you pass when you stop looking for signs that you pass and it's something you just expect.
knowing when you pass?
You need to put yourself in as many situations as possible. Riding on the tube / train in the rush hour, ride on buses, the Airport, the ladies washroom, Ladies shop changing rooms, wear a ladies swiming costume at the baths, Job interviews, go to the pub, gigs, straight night clubs, gay night clubs etc....
Basically go out as much as possible then you will know if you pass or not..
Quote from: mickie on February 07, 2008, 11:22:51 AM
i really seriously wasn't even trying..honestly!! when my son was in the hospital for being dehydrated.
Mickie
Aw poor thing... how did he get like that? Is he ok now?
Quote from: Berliegh on April 15, 2008, 06:35:59 AM
knowing when you pass?
You need to put yourself in as many situations as possible. Riding on the tube / train in the rush hour, ride on buses, the Airport, the ladies washroom, Ladies shop changing rooms, wear a ladies swiming costume at the baths, Job interviews, go to the pub, gigs, straight night clubs, gay night clubs etc....
Basically go out as much as possible then you will know if you pass or not..
I agree, Berliegh, that is the only way to do it. You have to go out and get called ma'am in as many situations as you come across. But don't do it unless you are ready to hear the results. Those are great ideas. Here are some other possibilities (not for the feint of heart): Go around a bunch of teenage girls. That will get you read if anything will. Follow them into the rest room. Stop and check out the mineral makeup at one of those stores at the mall. Strike up a conversation with a hair stylist. Go out to eat and ask where the rest room is, see which one they point you to. Buy a bra at a department store or lingerie store and talk to the other women in line with you. Order fast food at a drive through window and see if you can get called ma'am before they even see you.
You have to step out of your comfort zone if you are going to really know.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
QuoteYou have to step out of your comfort zone if you are going to really know.
I've stepped out of my comfort zone... it's just staying out there that's the
problem :)
It's like a battle with myself every time I go out... but I just
take a deep breath and go for it and I've never regretted it.
I guess my question is when did your comfort zone expand so that
you did not think about it and just ran out to get something? Or walked
up to some one and started chatting?
That's the place I need to get to.
Amanda
Quote from: Berliegh on April 15, 2008, 06:35:59 AM
knowing when you pass?
You need to put yourself in as many situations as possible. Riding on the tube / train in the rush hour, ride on buses, the Airport, the ladies washroom, Ladies shop changing rooms, wear a ladies swiming costume at the baths, Job interviews, go to the pub, gigs, straight night clubs, gay night clubs etc....
Basically go out as much as possible then you will know if you pass or not..
So imagine you do all that for a few years, and apparently pass just fine all that time. But then suddenly one day someone refers to you as
"sir." Do you still get to claim "you pass?" Or does that one "read" invalidate the claim?
No one ever knows if they pass 100% or not. It's impossible, unless you grab everyone who's ever walked past you on the street and tortured them to tell the truth. Not everyone who "reads" us is going to say something about it.
But you know you're *functionally* passable when you can live your life to your satisfaction. And IMHO, that's really what matters. I'll never know if everyone I encounter thinks I'm a genetic female, but I DO know that I can live my life as Kate now.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kristi on April 15, 2008, 09:31:33 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on April 15, 2008, 06:35:59 AM
knowing when you pass?
You need to put yourself in as many situations as possible. Riding on the tube / train in the rush hour, ride on buses, the Airport, the ladies washroom, Ladies shop changing rooms, wear a ladies swiming costume at the baths, Job interviews, go to the pub, gigs, straight night clubs, gay night clubs etc....
Basically go out as much as possible then you will know if you pass or not..
I agree, Berliegh, that is the only way to do it. You have to go out and get called ma'am in as many situations as you come across. But don't do it unless you are ready to hear the results. Those are great ideas. Here are some other possibilities (not for the feint of heart): Go around a bunch of teenage girls. That will get you read if anything will. Follow them into the rest room. Stop and check out the mineral makeup at one of those stores at the mall. Strike up a conversation with a hair stylist. Go out to eat and ask where the rest room is, see which one they point you to. Buy a bra at a department store or lingerie store and talk to the other women in line with you. Order fast food at a drive through window and see if you can get called ma'am before they even see you.
You have to step out of your comfort zone if you are going to really know.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
That's right Kristi.....I often ride on the London tube when the kids are coming out and the carrage is filled with teenage girls. Sometimes other ladies chat on the train to me and I'm lucky as I have a really good feminine voice which carries me along through so many situations.
As for hairstylists a few years ago when I was a bit younger and foolish I went and got some hair extensions put in. The girl who put them in was about 19. I asumed she thought I was TS and so I foolishly told her.......she then said 'no way'...this is a joke right'. So I said 'yea'..just kidding'. After that I never asumed anything...
Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 15, 2008, 09:57:38 AM
I guess my question is when did your comfort zone expand so that
you did not think about it and just ran out to get something? Or walked
up to some one and started chatting?
Try focusing on the task at hand, and forget about the TSism. I know, I KNOW, but seriously...
I'm an obsessive worrier. I anticipate every horrible outcome when about to do something. But once I'm THERE, I'm fine. It's not the actual interaction with people that I have trouble with, it's the minutes/hours leading up to it when my mind starts imagining
What Ifs. And to be fair, I've ALWAYS done that. It's not a TS thing. TSism just exposes an existing problem of mine.
Once I'm actually DOING whatever... shopping, dining, visiting, dealing with techs... whatever... I'm fine. In fact, sometimes it's hard to shut me up, lol. I ENJOY being me now... once I'm past that
"omg, what if...?" part.
~Kate~
When a stranger smiles at you and gives you a rose.
Quote
Try focusing on the task at hand, and forget about the TSism. I know, I KNOW, but seriously...
I'm an obsessive worrier. I anticipate every horrible outcome when about to do something. But once I'm THERE, I'm fine. It's not the actual interaction with people that I have trouble with, it's the minutes/hours leading up to it when my mind starts imagining What Ifs. And to be fair, I've ALWAYS done that. It's not a TS thing. TSism just exposes an existing problem of mine.
Yea I can see that... I think I do that to some extent too.
I came to the conclusion that it's going to take going out and "trying" to pass and doing that over and over until I know
I do. ....along with a whole list of things I need to get done starting with laser.
Amanda
Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 15, 2008, 03:29:15 PM
I came to the conclusion that it's going to take going out and "trying" to pass and doing that over and over until I know
I do...
LOL, been there, TRIED that, lol. You know how some people AVOID situations? Well, I obssesively put myself INTO them. I CANNOT back down from any opportunity or invitation for fear it'll start me down a slippery slope of avoiding things. I don't do bars or whatever, but I DO live my life and get out as I always have... only much moreso now.
And yet, a year of RLT, never ever hearing a nasty pronoun or getting a weird stare... and I was STILL convinced that The Next Encounter would be the one when everything fell apart.
The "trick" though, as I'm finally learning, is to JUST NOT CARE. And I do NOT mean you need to build up some super sense of self-acceptance or whatever they call it. IMHO, doing that means you're STILL obsessed with passing. "Trying to pass and seeing what happens" over and over just solidifies an obsession with passing, rather than cures it.
No, you just gotta let it go. Stop being TS, and just be Amanda. Don't obsess on passing. Don't obsess on self-acceptance. Just go pick up your pizza, buy some milk, whatever... and focus on THAT. On life. Don't go shopping as "a TS to see if you pass," just... go shopping. No "presenting" as anything. No "enfemme." No freaking about how to hold your hands, how to walk, how to breath. You're just another shopper buying that cute top, and that's all.
~Kate~
QuoteLOL, been there, TRIED that, lol. You know how some people AVOID situations? Well, I obssesively put myself INTO them. I CANNOT back down from any opportunity or invitation for fear it'll start me down a slippery slope of avoiding things. I don't do bars or whatever, but I DO live my life and get out as I always have... only much moreso now.
Yea...lol... it's "face your fears or they will control you" type thing for me too.
Quote
No, you just gotta let it go. Stop being TS, and just be Amanda. Don't obsess on passing. Don't obsess on self-acceptance. Just go pick up your pizza, buy some milk, whatever... and focus on THAT. On life. Don't go shopping as "a TS to see if you pass," just... go shopping. No "presenting" as anything. No "enfemme." No freaking about how to hold your hands, how to walk, how to breath. You're just another shopper buying that cute top, and that's all.
Oh yea... that sounds easy :)
LOL... why do things sound so easy when you think about them, right up until you have to do them and
then it's like "what was I thinking". I hear what you're saying though I need to relax and be myself. And that's actually
what I had in mind when I wrote I need to go out and try. It's never been an act for me in the past but I do
feel stiff and not relaxed at all.
Amanda
Quote from: Kate on April 15, 2008, 03:51:02 PMNo, you just gotta let it go. Stop being TS, and just be Amanda. Don't obsess on passing. Don't obsess on self-acceptance. Just go pick up your pizza, buy some milk, whatever... and focus on THAT. On life. Don't go shopping as "a TS to see if you pass," just... go shopping. No "presenting" as anything. No "enfemme." No freaking about how to hold your hands, how to walk, how to breath. You're just another shopper buying that cute top, and that's all.
Excellent advice. In the months since I transitioned to fulltime, I almost always forget about "gender" entirely when walking around on the street doing stuff. In my conscious awareness, I'm just me, doing what I do. I have completely gotten past the need to think about it or be conscious of it at all. I don't go around thinking "I'm a woman." I just am a woman, and what I'm thinking about throughout the day is where I'm going, what I'm doing, T.C.B. I have no trouble with "passing" like I used to when I was worrying about it all the time. It happens effortlessly. I know this sounds banal, but it's such a big change from how I used to be, when I catch myself forgetting about gender, I still feel astonished at how relaxed about it I feel now, so relaxed I keep forgetting about it. This is very good.
Amanda, you will arrive at this stage in your own good time. Trust yourself, trust the transformational process. It just takes time, and before you know it, you too will achieve success. It's kind of Zen... becoming successful by forgetting all about success.
Quote from: Hypatia on April 15, 2008, 06:13:27 PM
Excellent advice. In the months since I transitioned to fulltime, I almost always forget about "gender" entirely when walking around on the street doing stuff. In my conscious awareness, I'm just me, doing what I do. I have completely gotten past the need to think about it or be conscious of it at all. I don't go around thinking "I'm a woman." I just am a woman, and what I'm thinking about throughout the day is where I'm going, what I'm doing, T.C.B. I have no trouble with "passing" like I used to when I was worrying about it all the time. It happens effortlessly. I know this sounds banal, but it's such a big change from how I used to be, when I catch myself forgetting about gender, I still feel astonished at how relaxed about it I feel now, so relaxed I keep forgetting about it. This is very good.
Amanda, you will arrive at this stage in your own good time. Trust yourself, trust the transformational process. It just takes time, and before you know it, you too will achieve success. It's kind of Zen... becoming successful by forgetting all about success.
I have to think that the confidence in who you are also helps others see you as who you are, which helps you pass, no? I find myself, while new at this whole transitioning thing, finally just being myself. I don't know really if I pass or not, though I'm probably close (I was never a girly girl anyway). I guess I'll find out soon enough. In the meantime, I am Jay. I am male. I am me.
Kate, while I agree that trying too hard makes a girl just that much less passable, the truth is that, as Cindiana Jones likes to say, we need to practice the craft. I'll be honest, I practice whenever I get the chance. Sometimes I look at my makeup and just start all over. I observe girls and try emulate what they do and how they do it. I listen to good female readers and work on inflections of my voice. And yes, I sometimes obsess about things way out of proportion. Sometimes I make mistakes and cringe to see how I went out that day. I'm my own worst enemy. It's all part of growing up. But as time goes by I slowly build confidence. And that's what makes a girl passable, more than anything else. I cringe at how some go out, just not caring about how they present themselves. That gives us all a bad name. We don't all have to pass every time, and we probably never will. But that is no excuse for not doing our best to put forward a positive image. While I know I will never look like a supermodel, I don't want to be unpassable because of simple laziness.
OK, I know I will irritate some by having said this, so I'll duck now......
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on April 15, 2008, 06:59:33 PM
Kate, while I agree that trying too hard makes a girl just that much less passable, the truth is that, as Cindiana Jones likes to say, we need to practice the craft. I'll be honest, I practice whenever I get the chance. Sometimes I look at my makeup and just start all over. I observe girls and try emulate what they do and how they do it. I listen to good female readers and work on inflections of my voice. And yes, I sometimes obsess about things way out of proportion. Sometimes I make mistakes and cringe to see how I went out that day. I'm my own worst enemy. It's all part of growing up. But as time goes by I slowly build confidence. And that's what makes a girl passable, more than anything else. I cringe at how some go out, just not caring about how they present themselves. That gives us all a bad name. We don't all have to pass every time, and we probably never will. But that is no excuse for not doing our best to put forward a positive image. While I know I will never look like a supermodel, I don't want to be unpassable because of simple laziness.
OK, I know I will irritate some by having said this, so I'll duck now......
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Don't duck, Kristi. You're absolutely right.
Hugs,
Nichole
QuoteAmanda, you will arrive at this stage in your own good time. Trust yourself, trust the transformational process. It just takes time, and before you know it, you too will achieve success. It's kind of Zen... becoming successful by forgetting all about success.
That is probably the key... I know it takes time but I want to pass now... lol... I don't want to wait on HRT even
though I KNOW I need to. I'm sure it will work based on my results so far but it seems like time is standing still. I
hope I look back this time next year and laugh at my self for how impatient I was.
QuoteI cringe at how some go out, just not caring about how they present themselves. That gives us all a bad name. We don't all have to pass every time, and we probably never will. But that is no excuse for not doing our best to put forward a positive image. While I know I will never look like a supermodel, I don't want to be unpassable because of simple laziness.
I really realy feel like I've been given a gift with HRT and a second chance at living and I can't imagine getting
to the point where I don't care about my apperance. Is it really laziness or is it just that girls get so comfortable
that passing no longer matters or is it the view that I've heard lately that you just develop the mindset that you
don't care if you pass or not?
Amanda
Quote from: Kristi on April 15, 2008, 06:59:33 PM
Kate, while I agree that trying too hard makes a girl just that much less passable, the truth is that, as Cindiana Jones likes to say, we need to practice the craft. I'll be honest, I practice whenever I get the chance. Sometimes I look at my makeup and just start all over.
I never wear make up and if I'm shopping I wear jeans, boots and a casual top and jacket. I don't tie my hair up and I am seen as a normal female and have never been percieved as a transsexual. This may be due to a very long time period in transition and the fact that I have always been fairly androgenous from an early age. I haven't ever practiced anything and always just be myself.
The best thing is to be relaxed and get on with things...
Thanks Berliegh :), I don't feel the need to practice anything and I am just being me and I would never
try to act or be fake. But unfortunately without make up I'm not androgynous at all or at least I don't see it. But
I know you are right I just need to loosen up and "get on with things". Thanks :)
Amanda
Berliegh,
The one thing you have on most here is experience. Of course, what you have described is where everyone wants to be, and with time should be. I still believe that many who have had a lot of male conditioning need to learn and practice. There is just no substitute for being in an around a group of girls. Of course, that goes away with time. Those around me will tell you that I am also not a fancy dresser, a mostly jeans girl. I think that's irrelevant. So is makeup, though I happen to like it. It varies with region, personal taste, etc. Your passable mannerisms have to become yours at some point. They become unconscious. That's when all is not fake. There is no more pretending. But that kind of switch does not happen over night for most of us. I think it took me a good year of being in public before I felt I had crossed that barrier. As gorgeous as you are, Berliegh, I have no doubt you have no trouble passing, ever. I look in your eyes and see nothing but girl. I can't say that about everyone here. Just doing what is natural is fine, as long as what is natural is female, not a leftover male marker. To find out those things, you really need feedback from someone who is brutally honest. I am talking about things like how you hold you shoulders, what your arms do when you walk, your facial expressions, how you greet people, how you order food, how to look in your purse when you are checking out at a store, etc. ad nauseum I do not ever really think about those things any more. I don't need to. But the right advice from the right person at the right time has been a wonderful thing to receive.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 15, 2008, 11:00:04 PM
I can't imagine getting to the point where I don't care about my apperance. Is it really laziness or is it just that girls get so comfortable that passing no longer matters...
For myself, I don't relate makeup and clothes with passing. If someone realizes I was born male, it's going to because of the angular features of my face, not because of a lack of makeup or the non-feminine clothes I'm wearing. If I put on makeup or nicer clothes, it's generally because I think I look nicer that way, not because it makes me more passable.
So for me, skipping makeup and going out in jeans and a casual top isn't being lazy about passing... it's just not a factor in it.
~Kate~
QuoteFor myself, I don't relate makeup and clothes with passing. If someone realizes I was born male, it's going to because of the angular features of my face, not because of a lack of makeup or the non-feminine clothes I'm wearing. If I put on makeup or nicer clothes, it's generally because I think I look nicer that way, not because it makes me more passable.
So for me, skipping makeup and going out in jeans and a casual top isn't being lazy about passing... it's just not a factor in it.
I can see that. There is no way I'd come REMOTELY close to passing without makeup so my whole way of
thinking centers around that. Once (or if) I could pass without makeup I'm sure I would could
run out without it... but right now that's not an option :)
So yea, I do see how it's not laziness at all... as long as your passable without it, makeup should
not be a factor as you say.
Amanda
Quote from: Kristi on April 15, 2008, 09:31:33 AMHere are some other possibilities (not for the feint of heart): Go around a bunch of teenage girls. That will get you read if anything will.
Heh, what if you are good friends with a bunch of teenage girls and yet they still don't know? Does that count? ;) When I was in the musical last year, the majority of actors were teenage girls whom I made friends with. Plus there was the changing in the locker room in front of them.
Quote from: Kristi on April 15, 2008, 06:59:33 PMI observe girls and try emulate what they do and how they do it.
While this is a good initial approach to learning some basics for socialization, there eventually comes a point in transition where you need to realize that it's not all about passing. It's about being yourself and who you really are.
Just about every MTF TS exclaims "I am a woman inside and always have been." If that is so, then you should be able to have enough faith in yourself that you can stop trying to "emulate" others and just be yourself. That is the big secret of transition and it's what makes the biggest difference in whether somebody passes or not, because it allows you to be both
confident and
relaxed. It's so simple that just about everybody overlooks it too.
QuoteHeh, what if you are good friends with a bunch of teenage girls and yet they still don't know? Does that count? When I was in the musical last year, the majority of actors were teenage girls whom I made friends with. Plus there was the changing in the locker room in front of them.
Yea... that counts... that counts pretty much big time :) ...and hey... I want to play that game :)
I really envy everyone that's made it to that point right now.
Amanda
Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 16, 2008, 05:38:34 PMI really envy everyone that's made it to that point right now.
I used to as well. ;)
Quote from: Melissa on April 16, 2008, 05:31:13 PM
Just about every MTF TS exclaims "I am a woman inside and always have been." If that is so, then have should be able to have enough faith in yourself that you can stop trying to "emulate" others and just be yourself. That is the big secret of transition and it's what makes the biggest difference in whether somebody passes or not...
And also, IMHO, it's the difference between being accepted and treated with respect when you DON'T pass, or being demeaned and insulted for it.
~Kate~
Quote from: Melissa on April 16, 2008, 05:31:13 PM
Heh, what if you are good friends with a bunch of teenage girls and yet they still don't know? Does that count? ;)
Yes, Melissa, I would say that counts. ;D One of my turning points is when I ran into my teenage niece in a store shopping for clothes. She still has no idea.
Quote from: Melissa on April 16, 2008, 05:31:13 PM
While this is a good initial approach to learning some basics for socialization, there eventually comes a point in transition where you need to realize that it's not all about passing. It's about being yourself and who you really are.
I don't think what we are saying is mutually exclusive. We are talking about different phases. I thought the subject here was when you first realize you pass. Perhaps I was wrong. Certainly it is not all about passing, but for me it does include passing. I guess I am hopelessly vain, but I just want to be a woman, not a woman with an asterisk in everybody's mind. Maybe someday I will gain the maturity to think otherwise, but that is honestly where I am right now.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
I don't get the thing that some say that emulating
other women is not being yourself,
who you are is formed in contact with others,
that''s what socialisation is all about.
If that was not the case what would the nurture vs nature
argument be all about?
Who you are is formed in constant contact with others,
including women. If other women believe your a man (not passing),
your not going to socialize quite in the same way as if they
belive your one of theirs. This is a sad fact, but a fact regardless...
If you feel that this kind of emulating is some sort of "not being yourself",
well you kinda missing the boat. The emulation is natural anyway, every
peer group men, women, same race, tend to take from one another,
its a natural human trait as a social animal, there's nothing forced about it.
Keira,
I could not agree more. Look at it this way: Place yourself in another culture (for example, an Arab culture or a Tibetan Buddhist culture) and act the exact same way you do now. It may be true to "what's inside you" but you will not be part of that female culture. Soon, you will be acting different as society and you interact. That is part of our formational process. You may also shape culture to some extent, but as we all know, being female is not simply a biological process. Even within the United States, we have seen here on this board that there is a great deal of difference between the norms in various parts of the country. We may push the norms, but basically we strive for one side or the other. If this were not true, by definition there would be no such thing as GID. We are a living dialectic: always in the process of becoming. And the direction of the change is due, at least in part, to our interactions with others. So the way we are treated by others, perceived by others, plays a huge role in who we are. If we are never treated as female we cannot belong to the female culture in the same way that a natal female would. However, if we are treated as female (dare I say "pass") by other females, that interaction will, by its very nature, change us. IMHO, it will have a role in making us female. Of course we have to decide first on our identity to determine if we wish to participate in that culture. But if the answer is yes, we cannot do it in a vacuum. We do it both inwardly and in the context of society.
What does this have to do with passing? Very simply, emulation is a very natural part of who we are as complex human beings. We are social creatures. We can claim not to care, and to a certain extent that is healthy for self-differentiation. But in the final analysis, being male or female is not entirely an individual action. It implies interaction and a certain set of norms dictated by culture.
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Agreed, if acting male is being 'you' maybe some things arnt as clear cut?
Im with K here... Humans act.
FACT.
its just life, social interaction is a practiced role, you let that guard down with people you know and so do they. Its just how it is.
Take my best friend, shes a strong, slightly punky hard woman, shes the sort of girl whos very independent, and powerful and knows her beauty.
When shes alone with me or our other friends, the scared little girl comes out, the girl lacking self confidence, and fearing things....
EVERYONE acts. its a defense mechanism.
R >:D
Knowing when you pass?
When you no longer even think about passing. You simply lead a woman's life.
N~
Quote from: Keira on April 16, 2008, 09:20:45 PM
I don't get the thing that some say that emulating
other women is not being yourself,
who you are is formed in contact with others,
that''s what socialisation is all about.
If that was not the case what would the nurture vs nature
argument be all about?
Who you are is formed in constant contact with others,
including women. If other women believe your a man (not passing),
your not going to socialize quite in the same way as if they
belive your one of theirs. This is a sad fact, but a fact regardless...
If you feel that this kind of emulating is some sort of "not being yourself",
well you kinda missing the boat. The emulation is natural anyway, every
peer group men, women, same race, tend to take from one another,
its a natural human trait as a social animal, there's nothing forced about it.
Agreed. How do bio gals learn to be women? Why do they talk the same, act the same, move the same if they're not emulating & being themselves at the same time!
Posted on: April 17, 2008, 01:47:47 PM
For the answer of this topic. Voila:
Quote from: Nichole on April 17, 2008, 12:52:13 PM
Knowing when you pass?
When you no longer even think about passing. You simply lead a woman's life.
N~