knowing when you pass

[Rachael]

Tbh kim, offices are smart formal places, so duh, skirts... OFFICE attire...
the docks is labour... so work clothes... its a no brainer....
dress to what your doing...

Berleigh: in the aid of lulz dear...
R >

[nickie]

Well, sometimes I just think people are being nice. There has been a lot more niceness around here since the Susan Stanton case.
It's when: you try to go into the men's room, and have on guy looking clothes, and an employee tells you "You're going into the wrong restroom".
It's when someone mistakes you for your daughter's Mother.
It's when men you don't know open doors for you.
It's when the girls at the office ask you to go to lunch with them (sans men)
It's when you take a patient to the breast clinic, and the nurse asks you if YOU are here for your mammogram.
Now people have started calling me "Ma'am" on the phone without knowing my name.

[amy2003]

My boss and I were talking yesterday and I brought up this company that we will be working with soon.  He said he had worked with them before and that one time he heard about this girl that worked for them was actually a guy, and one of the people from our company asked her out and found out "it was a guy".  My boss said, "I mean, can you imagine that?  The guy that went out with her was ridiculed for months."  I asked him if he saw this "girl that was actually a guy."  His was reply was, "Uh, no!  I've NEVER known anybody like that!"  <CUE INTERNAL LAUGHTER>  My boss has asked me out several times, in a innocent kind of way that a boss could get away with 

Just thought this was a relevant story.

Amy

[Berliegh]

My boss and I were talking yesterday and I brought up this company that we will be working with soon.  He said he had worked with them before and that one time he heard about this girl that worked for them was actually a guy, and one of the people from our company asked her out and found out "it was a guy".  My boss said, "I mean, can you imagine that?  The guy that went out with her was ridiculed for months."  I asked him if he saw this "girl that was actually a guy."  His was reply was, "Uh, no!  I've NEVER known anybody like that!"  <CUE INTERNAL LAUGHTER>  My boss has asked me out several times, in a innocent kind of way that a boss could get away with 

Just thought this was a relevant story.

Amy

Brilliant!

[lady amarant]

My boss has asked me out several times, in a innocent kind of way that a boss could get away with 

Just thought this was a relevant story.

Amy

Gee Amy, I wonder if your boss has ever heard of the term 'sexual harassment'. Should ask him some time, just to see what he does...  > > >

[amy2003]

Gee Amy, I wonder if your boss has ever heard of the term 'sexual harassment'. Should ask him some time, just to see what he does...  > > >

Well, my job is not and has never been in jeorpardy, so I don't consider it sexual harassment.  He started by asking me out to lunch, which everybody at work goes out to lunch together sometimes, but he would only ask when nobody else was around, and he would act sheepish when he did it.  But the most obvious was when he asked me to go to a mutual acquaintance's Super Bowl Party.  I told him I had to fix my kitchen sink (which was true), so he went to the plumber who works for us and told him to send a worker out to fix my sink, to which the plumber replied that he would if my boss wasn't always on his case of being behind schedule, to which my boss replied, "I don't care.  Send someone to her house today so she will go to this party with me."  I was standing there and heard this.  I enjoy talking to my boss.  We have a lot in common, but's he's got daughters my age.  I don't do that... ever!

But, yes, I truly believe him to be innocent.  But if it ever does become a problem, our company has a zero-tolerance sexual harrassment policy.

[lady amarant]

But, yes, I truly believe him to be innocent.  But if it ever does become a problem, our company has a zero-tolerance sexual harrassment policy.

Well, I was kinda joking ... but good to know that you have backup if things ever do go South.

[Hypatia]

I have an experiment that people could do when they are ready, of course.

Get on a bus or train full of teenagers (when they are leaving school).  If no one takes a second glance at you, laughs or mocks you, then you definitely pass.  Teenagers tend to be extremely perceptive, and most of the time, if someone reads you, it is more likely to be a teenager.

tink

That is scary as all hell. 

It was by far the most traumatic incident I went through in my early days. I stopped taking public transportation for a couple years after that. What hell is it with teenagers anyway?

[Berliegh]

I have an experiment that people could do when they are ready, of course.

Get on a bus or train full of teenagers (when they are leaving school).  If no one takes a second glance at you, laughs or mocks you, then you definitely pass.  Teenagers tend to be extremely perceptive, and most of the time, if someone reads you, it is more likely to be a teenager.

tink

That is scary as all hell. 

It was by far the most traumatic incident I went through in my early days. I stopped taking public transportation for a couple years after that. What hell is it with teenagers anyway?

on the tube or on a bus....I don't have a problem with them at all...

[mickiejr1815]

It's when: you try to go into the men's room, and have on guy looking clothes, and an employee tells you "You're going into the wrong restroom".
It's when someone mistakes you for your daughter's Mother.
It's when men you don't know open doors for you.

i second all these, my wife put her car in the ditch and i had to go get her out a week or so ago now. some guys stopped to pull us out, (since this happened to me before i had toe ropes), i was just gonna try and drive it out but the tires were shot pretty much, especially for snow. these guys stopped to help and asked my wife if she needed help, she told him she was waiting on her husband and i heard em ask if he was here to which i responded that would be me. either they didn't hear me or didn't believe her or me when she told him. wearing pink hair ties i guess doesn't really help...lol. she told me later on that they thought i was a girl. yesterday was great as well, for the first time in a long while, i wore my hair up in just a ponytail and percentage wise i was referred to as 90 percent of the day as female. i definitely enjoyed that. i'm still working on my boss that if people think that i'm female to just leave it alone, i learned a long time ago it's just worth fighting over it, and i've informed him i'm not really offended by it anyway.




Mickie

[Rachael]

knowing when you pass:
grade C or above?
R >

[mickiejr1815]

extremely funny Rachael, as i am assuming you are being completely sarcastic, if we are going by grades, yeah i use to think that i was a grade C or lower and i would never pass because of my really deep voice, half the time i say nothing and i get stuff done for me..lol. but when somebody compares you to your spouse and sis(in-law) in the same sentence, i IMHO, i can only feel grade A!!


Mickie

[Rachael]

Tbh, this is a silly topic, deserving a silly answer....
you never know when you pass... because people may just be being polite, or you may pass. how do you find out?
'hey, what sex do you think i am?' doesnt quite work does it?
only way to find out is out yourself, then your not passing
So best solution is rock on and stop caring. i did, and my life is 100000% smoother and easier.

Sure its a big deal, and it dominates your mind for a bit. but it does go away.

when do you stop passing?
when you ARE that. you really cant pass as a girl when you are one. and when you are one, you pass!
We see features most dont, and look at a random face, mostly women, and youll see those features you think stop you passing...
most people only take cursory note of gender markers...
no stubble, no shaddow, long hair, in womens clothes, most will go female
beard, instant guy....
the rest is just how you look....
R >

[mickiejr1815]

absolutely, that's why i don't worry about it too much, people see what they want to see. where i work, i have seen actual genetic girls come in with more facial hair than i will ever have, and all i can think is girl go home and shave, cuz that's just nasty in my book, but to each his, i mean her own...lol. and you are completely correct, this is a silly topic, as same with the damn restroom discussion.

Mickie

[NicholeW.]

and you are completely correct, this is a silly topic, as same with the damn restroom discussion.

Mickie

I couldn't agree more about both topics.

We all know which bathroom to use, or if there is a neutral one to use it if we are uncertain. Period.

As for passing, you know if you do when you know which bathroom to use. But, like Rach said, it's problematic to base your 'passing' on what others say. There are any number of reasons they might answer 'yes' without being 'right.' *sigh* And any number of reasons the reverse might occur as well.

If there were a guidebook LOL maybe both would occur more easily. I'd suggest anyone who has a real interest in 'whether of not I pass' and 'which bathroom do I go to?' write the book and let's allow these threads to fade away peaceably.

Nichole

[Rachael]

good way to check: go to a place where mens and womens loos are in different places, ask where the toilets are
R >

[Berliegh]

good way to check: go to a place where mens and womens loos are in different places, ask where the toilets are
R >

I've done that a few times in the early days and they always sent me to the ladies..

[Hypatia]

I think that just trying to be ultra fem anymore is more of a dead giveaway than anything.  If you look around at what the majority of women wear you will find it is mostly, you guessed it, jeans and t-shirts or sweaters.  Sometimes nice dress pants and less frequently skirts and dresses and heels.

I just have to buck the crowd here and say I disagree with this. I think the problem is not that we get read by dressing feminine. The problem is when we don't know how to do it right.

Because I pass much better in feminine attire. I see everyone repeating as gospel truth that you can't be feminine. That's well and good, but in my case, bitter experience has shown the reverse to be true. I always wear skirts and dresses now. No exceptions. However, I do it right and achieve success that way.

A couple years ago, I was in despair and actually tried heeding the constant advice to avoid femininity. Nope! That got me nowhere. So I went back to skirts and dresses, and am so glad I did!

I'm an individual and trans life is not one size fits all. My situation is just different from the majority, I guess. My face and my complexion are the sort that benefits from makeup--as long as one knows how to apply it skillfully and tastefully. I always dress tastefully and in accordance with how other women dress. My age, social milieu, and professional career are such that I fit in well by dressing well. My results speak for themselves: Everyone consistently calls me "ma'am" without a second glance, without hesitation. I have not heard the words "sir" or "he" once since going fulltime. Not once. So what I'm doing is definitely working for me.

Hypatia says the problem with wearing skirts and dresses is not the garments themselves, it's knowing how to wear them in a way that fits in with how other women wear them. Because other women do wear them a lot, at least in my milieu.

[Rachael]

tbh, its swings and roundabouts. what works for one, wont work for another...
Just because I seem to pass best wearing boys jeans, sneakers, and a university hoodie. doesnt mean someone else will, or that i cant be feminine. just go with your personality, because at the end of the day, if your relaxed, nobodies got reason to care...
R >

[Hypatia]

ROFL    well, unfortunately some people think that by dressing ultra fem, a.k.a. trashy, slutty...(high heels, red dress way above the knees, lots and lots of hair and makeup, and blue eye shadow) is going to fool people.

Right on, Tink. In my humble opinion, all the blue eyeshadow in the world needs to be collected and placed into a container, weighted with lead, and sunk to the bottom of the Marianas Trench. I have never seen it look good on anyone.

Posted on: February 26, 2008, 01:11:50 PM

just go with your personality, because at the end of the day, if your relaxed, nobodies got reason to care...

Exactly, Rach. When I look good, I feel good, and that is what works.

Posted on: February 26, 2008, 01:15:13 PM

on the tube or on a bus....I don't have a problem with them at all...

There are those of us who have never had to make any effort with looks.
There are others of us who started out far behind, and by dint of estrogen, laser, and a steep learning curve, are now succeeding. What I lack in natural looks, I make up for with intelligence and ability to learn.


Posted on: February 26, 2008, 01:27:18 PM

only way to find out is out yourself, then your not passing

That's true! I first realized that I was attaining success when I outed myself to someone, assuming she'd already read me, but she hadn't. From then on I stopped talking about it!