I have a serious question that may seem laughable but it is not.
What kind of a relationship label is applicable for two non related unmarried women, living together, committed not to date anyone and to live together forever, tell each other that they love the other, kiss each other on the lips, hug daily but sleep in separate rooms and do not have sex? One woman is interested in sex with the other but she is not interested. They would sleep together but they both snore and sleep lightly so they have separate bedrooms. To me the answer that most would give is that they are in a lesbian relationship. What else could it be called?
It is also true that they were once married and have an adult daughter because one is a MTF transexual. I am that MtF and my partner is trying to establish some kind of civil union thing to describe us but wants it very clear to all that she is not a lesbian. She says that she does not consider us married anymore but does not want to separate or for either of us to date someone else.
I am full time and I pass most of the time. We have just moved into a new house that we are renting. The neighbors have not come by to introduce yet and may never since it is California but who shall we say we are? Sisters? Where is my husband? Where is my partners husband? We have an adult daughter living with us too. We all have the same last name. What is our relationship to the outside world? To me it is OK to say we are partners and let them think anything they want. That is very not wanted by my partner.
If it walks like a duck.... quacks like a duck... isn't it a ....
In California that would be called Domestic Partners.
Sarah L.
I agree and mentioned that we are "Domestic Partners" but she says that is for gays and lesbians. I mentioned that legally even same sex hetero seniors can be listed as Domestic Partners. She wants to avoid any stigma. I should say that we can't legally get that designation because legally we are still married. We would have to divorce and apply for one. However, now in California, it would be called Married.....
Maggie, I have the same kind of arrangement, except we sleep together, well sometimes she sleeps in the other room when I have asthma and I snore. We are still married though. I call us partners but I have heard my wife call me her friend. Most of the people she knows and works with all know me. I worked with them also. I don't work there anymore. She also does not consider us lesbians and I don't either. We are not intimate, not even with the kiss anymore. We basically live together because we have been together for a long time, since High School and we really don't want to date anyone and economically it works well with us. If we were to split up, we could not afford the lifestyle we have enjoyed and worked a long time for. So far it has worked. My eyes have been wondering but that is all, just wondering.
Sheila
Quote from: MaggieB on May 22, 2008, 12:49:23 PM
What kind of a relationship label is applicable...
Are you looking for a legal term? Or something you can use when introducing yourself to people?
I still haven't figured out anything appropriate for my "wife" and I. For the most part, we just go by first names ("this is Kate...") without adding any labels, letting people draw their own conclusions.
I'm in a similar situation, except we don't touch one another or feel any sexual interests, although we do love one another and generally enjoy cooperating and doing life things together. We're certainly not married (in spirit anyway), not really Domestic Partners even, not "partners" in any romantic sense, yet more than just friends since we're committed to a monogamous (though sexless) relationship.
~Kate~
I am not seeking a legal determination. We are legally married and neither of us is contemplating divorce. Rather, it is how we describe ourselves. Frankly, I am not satisfied with the situation and am quite lonely. She did distance herself from me and that has been very hard. I read Amanda's story about how her SO who hopped her bones one night and so wish to have that for myself again someday. Pigs will fall from the sky first though....
I didn't really expect that there was a descriptor that really would fit this "relationship". I think, perhaps, a new word needs to be created. So we will muddle through with me and her acting out different views of what we are. Most days we are OK but sometimes it gets weird again. It is a work in progress.
Quote from: MaggieB on May 22, 2008, 02:45:17 PM
We are legally married and neither of us is contemplating divorce...
If you don't mind my asking... do you both still wear your wedding rings?
My wife hasn't worn hers for many years (practical reasons, not as a statement), but I still wear mine... and feel awful about it. To me, it represents a promise I failed to keep... making it look and feel like I'm STILL "leading her on" with false hope. But I fear if I said as much, she'd take it as me wanting to separate, as the beginning of that move. But heck, I'd be willing to buy NEW rings symbolizing our relationship, whatever it is.
It's all so confusing...
~Kate~
We do wear the rings but with some differences. She reversed the order so the engagement ring is on the outside. She has also taken them off once recently. She gave me an engagement ring. I have the picture and story on my blog: http://www.bengco.com/KayBlog/?paged=2 (http://www.bengco.com/KayBlog/?paged=2)
Today, however, since she now says we aren't married, I moved the band to the right pinky finger and left the engagement ring there. If we come back to the idea that we are married, I will move it back to the ring finger.
I too feel deep feelings of letting her down in that she never wanted to marry a woman. I lost a battle that could not be won but still it hurts from time to time to remember what was. I do still love that woman and so want to be as close as we once were.
Quote from: MaggieB on May 22, 2008, 12:49:23 PMWhat kind of a relationship label is applicable...
"companion"
The relationship you describe falls under the label "Boston Marriage."
Quote from: Lisbeth on May 22, 2008, 04:54:11 PM
The relationship you describe falls under the label "Boston Marriage."
Yes, That IS IT! Thank you!
Quote from: Lisbeth on May 22, 2008, 04:54:11 PM
The relationship you describe falls under the label "Boston Marriage."
I think the meaning of "Boston Marriage" has evolved since the 19th century. ;)
Z
Quote from: MaggieB on May 22, 2008, 03:20:13 PM
We do wear the rings but with some differences. She reversed the order so the engagement ring is on the outside. She has also taken them off once recently. She gave me an engagement ring. I have the picture and story on my blog: http://www.bengco.com/KayBlog/?paged=2 (http://www.bengco.com/KayBlog/?paged=2).
It's very pretty ;)
Quoteshe never wanted to marry a woman...
The sad thing is neither did I. But I wanted a fulltime girlfriend to make up for my missed girlhood, so I trapped her into being mine, lured by promises and hopes I knew I'd never keep.
~Kate~
Quote from: MaggieB on May 22, 2008, 05:25:13 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on May 22, 2008, 04:54:11 PM
The relationship you describe falls under the label "Boston Marriage."
Yes, That IS IT! Thank you!
You're welcome.
Quote from: MaggieB on May 22, 2008, 02:45:17 PMI am not seeking a legal determination. We are legally married and neither of us is contemplating divorce. Rather, it is how we describe ourselves.
How about it's a "very close, but plutonic relationship"?
As most here knows I hate labelling everything. Why does a relationship need to be labelled. If you and your wife are happy so be it-you are two women who love each other. I am sure most of us when we introduce a spouse or date etc to someone we really don't need to announce they are my wife or partner etc - just this is "name". If the question arises then you just say she (or he in some cases) is someone who loves me and makes me feel special.
My wife doesn't like to be called a lesbian either but she is happy being with me as wife and wife as we are. But she did like a comment we got in church one day. A sweet lil' older lady leaned forward after mass and told me that I and my life partner have beautiful children. My wife seems to like that term if anyone presses us for a label on ourselves. But for the most part she introduces me by name if its not someone I already know and vice versa.
Just be happy together and let people write their own labels. I find it doesn't really matter what you call yourselves because people will usually scribble it out for their own label anyways!!
Kim :angel:
Maggie:
It really almost doesn't matter what you call yourselves. People who meet you will assign a label to you regardless of what you say.
If Boston Marriage feels right for you two then go for it!
-Sandy
Sadly, when I told my SO about it she got angry and didn't want to use that term. She prefers not to label at all and yet she doesn't want to be seen as married to a woman. It is difficult. She says "housemate" would be better if pushed to say.
Maggie
Quote from: MaggieB on May 23, 2008, 10:22:14 AM
Sadly, when I told my SO about it she got angry and didn't want to use that term. She prefers not to label at all and yet she doesn't want to be seen as married to a woman. It is difficult. She says "housemate" would be better if pushed to say.
What label would *you* use to introduce her, if you had your choice?
~Kate~
We are in a state of flux where one day I would say "my lover", another "my partner" and another a very unflattering appellation. Most of the time, I think of her as my partner.
Quote from: MaggieB on May 23, 2008, 11:57:22 AM
Most of the time, I think of her as my partner.
Apparently, she doesn't. My ex preferred "friend."
A friend, huh, might have to be it for me too.
Maggie
don't feel bad Maggie, i am in somewhat of a similar situation as well. of course tho we still sleep in the same bed, neither of us wants that to change. she didnt want to marry a woman either and we live in ohio. here in ohio, i can have all the surgeries i want but they do not recognize srs and refuse to cahnge gender markers on anything, so legally we are still married as husband and wife. i really prefer those terms no matter what myself. imho, i don't see why husband=man with penis and wife=woman with vagina, who said these labels had to be defined this way in the first place. she doesn't identify as a lesbian woman either and i told her she doesn't have to but i do. we both still love each other very much. yeah there are times and places i really don't know what to say but i figure partner is the best bet especially with meeting new people, our sister calls her my husband, but she really doesn't like that, but it doesn't bother me in the least. i think it's cute myself. you love who you love.....no matter what the label....
Best Wishes,
Warrior Princess,
Mickie
Maggie:
Soon my partner will be moving in with me. We've discussed what we would call each other. We are partners and she refers to me as her wife (which I adore). She is the more dominant of us but we are still equal. To others we will refer to ourselves as life partners.
And if Illinois passes HB1826 we will get married and we will be spouses.
If you wanted to re-write POSSLQ you could say:
Persons Of Same Sex Saring Living Quarters.
But then it comes out POSSSLQ!
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Won't you be my POSSSLQ?
-Sandy(Getting silly)
I understand this question perfectly. I still refer to her as my wife, she simply refers to me as him, although she did do well to call me she the last time we were out and I was dressed female. Like Kate, I still havent removed my wedding band, she did almost immediately and openly tells me that I screwed her life up and she no longer loves me.
She says she is not a lesbian and will never be one. We still sleep together but all romantic or closeness has been removed by her initiation. I kiss her head but recieve nothing back, I still love her and tell he so but she will not. She says she will stay with me through transition but I am having a hard time accepting this the way she acts. She says she wants a bedroon set for her in another room.
It makes me sad that I feel I gave so much of myself, 22yrs and raised her children as my own only to be treated like crap when I need her the most. Im sorry, it just hits home and hurts.
The only thing good is that my understanding of the Illinois law is that even though I transition, unless we divorce legally, it remains a valid marriage. So to me she is still my wife.
Wendy
Sandy,
Congratulations! This is a wonderful development in your seemingly charmed transition. I only wish I could find someone to love me as deeply as I loved Jane.
Wendy,
I can so relate to your situation. My wife still insists that she loves me but behaves like she doesn't. I think she wants to preserve the "marriage" as a marriage of convenience since we both have been though a divorce and it was devastating to all involved. So we will stay together and won't see anyone else. She is so bitter that she won't deal with any man now. In fact, she is now bitter and cynical almost full time. Of course, if I mentioned this to her, she would vehemently deny it. It is so difficult to be with a person for so many hours who doesn't want to be with me. She has taken to saying I look old a lot. I asked her to stop and also why she says it. She responded with "You need to be brought back to reality, you are old". My joy at finally being free to be me has only inflamed her more. So it is a no win situation. This weekend she is home for three days. I so look forward to Tuesday. I admit, I don't want to be here.
Mickie,
Thanks for the encouragement. I wish my wife would want to sleep with me again. She says she would but since she doesn't really show me any meaningful affection, I wonder seriously if that is just a ruse to get along. I am a trusting person and not devious in any way. I tell the truth and don't lie. She on the other hand does put on a face and tells me that is how she survives at work. I simply couldn't to that. She has a stoic personality so it is almost impossible to read her emotions.
This morning, I am really tired of trying to find ways to make her feel better about my trans status. She spurns everything I come up with. All she says she wants is for me to go deep stealth and leave every trans contact behind, including this forum. I could do this as I pass now but my trans friends are the only friends I have and I can't imagine leaving. You all are my lifeline and a voice of reason in an insane world.
Quote from: MaggieB on May 23, 2008, 02:15:39 PM
A friend, huh, might have to be it for me too.
I tried that once. It didn't go over well at ALL, lol,
"What? I'm just a FRIEND to you now? That's ALL?"I think the relationship has to find it's own way. In time, the label and appropriate "concept" will show itself. In the meantime, we all struggle and "test" and experiment to find something that works.
Although, I suspect in my case the difficulty in finding an appropriate label simply reflects the fact that a romantic/intimate relationship just isn't THERE. We aren't trying to figure out who we are NOW, so much as realizing how it's ALWAYS been between us. My wife often says,
"it's not that I lost my husband that's so hard, it's looking back over the years now at how we've been together and realizing that I never HAD one."~Kate~
"Maiden aunts" >:D
friends, housemates
Posted on: May 24, 2008, 01:16:26 PM
Quote from: Princess Mickie on May 23, 2008, 05:17:29 PM
i don't see why husband=man with penis and wife=woman with vagina, who said these labels had to be defined this way in the first place.
I think that is the accepted form in English-speaking countries. In Germany and Austria and parts of Switzerland and in parts of other European countries in eastern Europe, you would be "Herr" and she would be "Frau."
I don't think there was a "who" unless tradition and social custom can be blamed.
Most butch-type lesbians I know don't particularly like that term "husband." It's a "male" term and they definitely do not identify with "male." Now I know it is often used by some gay men in their committed contexts, as is "wife."
Most of my lesbian-couple friends use wife for both.
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on May 24, 2008, 01:49:44 PM
I think that is the accepted form in English-speaking countries. In Germany and Austria and parts of Switzerland and in parts of other European countries in eastern Europe, you would be "Herr" and she would be "Frau."
I think in English these terms can be switched much more easily than in Germany and Austria (where I'm from) husband is called "Ehemann" (which is just the word for "marriage" + the word for "man") and wife is "Ehefrau" (which is "marriage" + "woman") and in everyday language it's even just "Mann" and "Frau".
I have never really heard these terms switched if it wasn't to ridicule sombody or at lest self-ironic. I think stuff like that
is way easier in English and I sometimes really envy the fact that your grammar isn't gendered...
(@ Nichole: "Herr" is rather used as "Mr." or "gentleman", by the way)
You are correct. "Mann" is husband. *smile* Long time away from Germany.