Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Why is it that heterosexual males will not leave women have their own space? 

A few years ago I belonged to a transsexual support group in the Washington, DC suburbs.  It was put together by transsexuals, for transsexuals, and for many years only transsexuals came to the meetings.  Then the males came in.

Crossdressers, males in female attire and makeup, and they invaded a space for transsexuals.  I knew who and what they were.  they were not hard to spot.  I sat with two friends, M to F, as I was, and we watched and listened as a discussion ensued.  They wanted to be welcome in our meetings!  These males, the ones who crossdress on the weekends and might be the ones to make life miserable on transsexuals on the job and elsewhere, they, and their male privilege, invaded our space.

I was really disgusted by the discussion but what made me ill was when a certain person, let's call her Leslie, rose to speak.  This crossdresser began to speak, telling us that it was necessary to include everyone!  He was wearing black tights, a gray wool dress, black top, boiled wool clogs, and as he spoke, he began to scratch his balls!  He scratched his balls while dressed as a woman, in a room full of transsexuals, M to F and F to M!

There are places for crossdressers to gather where they will be with others of like interest and desires.  There are places like the Tri-Ess (Society for the Second Self) that meet regularly.  Why do they come into places that are labeled as transsexual?

Some things are beyond my ability to understand.

Wing Walker

hi wing walker...on this we agree.  the crossdressers insist that they are our "sisters".  how can a man be anyone's sister?  to me that is nothing more then imposing their fantasy on my reality.

we know that the majority of crossdressers are transvestites, they get a sexual thrill out of wearing, handling or maybe just looking at female clothing.  funny how you never meet any of those.  most just say they are expressing a "feminine side" of themselves.  there are many, many ways a feminine side can be expressed without dressing up like a girl.

so until we all get it through our heads that we are very different creatures we will not come to understand and respect each other.  just recently i was chastized for calling a crossdresser a crossdresser.  why did that generate such offense?  i made no moral judgement about crossdressing.  i didn't say that crossdressers are really just a bunch of perverts or anything of the sort...i said..."ah hah!  you are a crossdresser, not a woman...you like to dress up as a woman but you are a man."  i was commenting on my realization that as this person seemed to have absolutely no clue as to how women feel is because he isn't one....he's a man.

it was done in the context of a conversation about men holding open doors for women.  this person didn't approach the subject from the point of view of a man, he did so from the point of view of a woman.  he went as far as to tell us how we do think and how we should think.  coming from a man i thought that should be noted, it was relevant to the conversation.

for this i was accused of bashing.  why is calling a crossdresser a crossdresser bashing while calling a transsexual a transsexual isn't?  aren't we all supposed to be equal?  are the crossdressers so ashamed of themselves that we can't publicly acknowledge them for what they are.....which isn't us?  that's what i call infantalizing, not giving the respect due one for what they are, not what they don't want to be.  i am a transsexual and i have no problem what-so-ever being called one...if you don't..i will.  i am in no way ashamed of myself, being what i am is an honor and a privelege.  by not refering to others as what they are, to me, would be showing disrespect...saying..."sure you should be ashamed of yourself."  i don't believe that way and i don't want to be precieved as such.  what people do sexually is not my call.  it's between us, our partners and our deity.

what we all need to do is understand and stop denying the reality of what we are.  transvestism is about fantasy, transsexualism is about reality.  a substantial, even fundamental difference.  a crossdresser can no more tell me how i feel or how i should feel then i can tell him how he should feel about being himself.  i don't think it should be out of bounds for us to make clear what's going on and who is who.

to me equality doesn't indicate sameness.  as a woman i don't have any trouble at all seeing myself as equal to any man at the same time i see myself as very different.  i'm not better then men and i'm not worse then men...but i am very different.  as with a vast majority of women, virtually every one i've ever met, i appreciate being treated as a woman.  that's something i think about all women, who are women, can identify with...it might be more difficult for men to see it.  so the point of my post was to show that men don't see things like women and i didn't appreciate him telling me how i should feel and if i don't feel like he says i should then i must be stupid or uneducated.....that i found personally offensive.

no comment was made on that.

Please forgive me for being simplistic and maybe intolerant but is it possible that these men in costume use the term 'crossdresser' because they baulk at the word TRANSVESTITE?    They certainly appear to be quite dim if they believe that they can be among transsexuals as equals considering that they are playing at being women on the weekend in the same manner as reservist military folk but without the same honesty and dedication of those soldiers etc. whilst I and other transsexuals are putting ourselves through the ordeals of transition in order to achieve what is a correction of an error of the natural genetic engineering that occurs during a pregnancy.

I do not currently belong to any group for transsexuals offline but if I did, I would rather resent it if some ->-bleeped-<- came in and asked to speak with some kind of authority.  I am living as a woman, every minute of every day and suffer the abuse, pain, heartache that comes because I believe in myself whilst these imposters only play it it at their convenience, dressing up for a reason best known to themselves and probably for a sexual kick at the time of undressing back to normal life.  It is like having a journalist break in to the delivery room when your wife is giving birth just because he/she felt like it and because there is some satisfaction to be gained....it is plain and simple wrong. 

Maybe I have missed the point of Wing Walkers post, if that is the case I apologise but I feel it important to distingush between Males, females and yes, crossdressers.  I am M to F and consider myself female, F to M will likewise consider themselves males and for me, transvestites are just having some fun. A huge difference of mindset in my view  :-\

I believe that in any private space (as opposed to publicly funded institutions) any group is entitled to limit its membership to whoever they want (the right of free association).  That hold true for meetings of transexuals who wish to exclude other people with gender issues.  It also includeds the right of feminist organizations and things like the Michigan Womyn's Festival and privately funded rape crisis centers to use the 'womyn born womyn' exclusion also.

Or are you saying that you have a right to exclude, but also have a right to never be excluded?

I don't think TSs should be assuming they understand the motivations of CDrs any more than CDrs should do the same for TSs.

Is the limited scope of the group made clearly known?

Do the people in question consider *themselves* to be CDrs? Or is that just what others label them as? Maybe these people DO think they're TSs?

~Kate~

We walk a fine line.  Every reason we give to not allow someone we don't classify as ts into a meeting, can be used by others to say we don't belong.

I do understand the want to have only TS people at a meeting of Ts's, but a genetic woman could use the same arguement to say that TS women (I am only addressing MtF here, the same arguements can be used for FtM) do not belong in their locker room.

Sarah L.

Many, many MtF TS people go through a period of thinking themselves "just crossdressers" before they finally get to an understanding and acceptance of themselves. Who are we to to decide where along hir journey any individual may be? By all means, if people are acting inappropriately and disrespectfully, confront them about it, but jeez, afford them the same consideration and respect as we would for ourselves, be it from feminist groups or religious institutions or whatever else.

~Simone.

Properly done good exclusion policies can take a single group of a million and make a million groups of one.  And, divide and conquer is a pretty old tactic, and it does work.

But if you can exclude people for 'not being trans enough' then why can't people exclude you for being trans in the first place?

Quote from: tekla on July 16, 2008, 03:19:00 PM
But if you can exclude people for 'not being trans enough'...

Well, in support groups it can be helpful to limit attendance to those with similar goals. It's not a "better than" thing so much as just trying to stay focused on common issues which affect everyone, like coming out at work, getting hired post-transition, name changes, etc.

~Kate~

Like I said earlier, maybe I misunderstand the premise of Wing Walker's post and I understand that some current crossdressers may eventually recognise something within themselves that is far deeper than expected.  I was trying to point out those that are clearly off the building site or other typically male domain to then go put a  dress on and play woman for an evening.....would you want them to 'muscle in' upon a meeting or gathering that you thought was for you and your fellow transitioners or post-op's engaging with each other over wine and nibbles and a good jolly old chat?   :-\

kate.  the individual i was refering to self-identifies in his profile as a crossdresser.  i, too, think we have to be very careful about identifying people for them.  i am inclined to hold true the self-identification until such time as i have reason to believe otherwise.  by default, we are what we say we are.

simone.  ditto.  i don't think we can decide for anyone else, we have to take their word for it.

i also think we shouldn't infantilize.  we shouldn't say that what certain people are should be unmentionable once they do self-identify.  if one is ashamed of being what he is, he should be encouraged to get some help, learn to respect himself for what he is or try to change.  it really is all about respect and personal dignity.  we ts's shouldn't hold cd's as worthy of any less respect then ourselves, but by the same token it shouldn't be made off limits to discuss the difference without everyone taking offense.  i think it is very telling that we seem to have to handle the cd's with kid gloves.  it's bashing them to look at them crosseyed.  that attitude i find condescending and sending exactly the wrong signal, it validates the negative attitude of the majority.  let's just be honest about things.....that's showing real respect.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on July 16, 2008, 03:00:03 PM
We walk a fine line.  Every reason we give to not allow someone we don't classify as ts into a meeting, can be used by others to say we don't belong.

I do understand the want to have only TS people at a meeting of Ts's, but a genetic woman could use the same arguement to say that TS women (I am only addressing MtF here, the same arguements can be used for FtM) do not belong in their locker room.

Sarah L.

I have yet to attend a meeting of transsexuals in which we disrobed as a community and showered together.

Wing Walker

Given the original premise, I thought for just a second I was at the Michigan Women's Music Festival or in a radical feminist lecture hall.

But, seeing all these other TSes in here I just realized that I couldn't be in either of those places, because no TSes would be allowed in them, no matter your credentials for being a woman.

If this argument is meant to be directed at an inclusionary forum, then I would imagine a petition should be sent along to Susan requesting that she change her site to something that it currently is not.

There are a number of sites that do not allow non-TS to enter them. If anyone is feeling misused enough perhaps they would find those more to their liking.

The "Just For Us" sections here are set-up to be exactly what at least three of you have argued for: spaces where people androgyne, cd, ftm, mtf if they have entered those groups are not allowed to go unless they are group members.

A huge number of people "out there" are unwilling to give any of us any validity for being "women." For them we will always be men. I find it ironic in the extreme that people who have and do live in that sort of world are willing to try to exclude others as much as possible from their chats that are on a very public board.

And the expectation from me is that it takes someone who is an adult, not an infant, to understand that.

This entire matter was taken up the other night. And PJ, since you have this wish to discuss it in public, your posts were not removed for your disagreement with tekla. They were removed because you repeatedly made personal attacks and disparagements that were only tangentially based on them identifying as a cross-dresser. 

So yes, I agree: let's be honest about things and show "real respect" while we are at it.

Nichole

Quote from: lady amarant on July 16, 2008, 03:05:47 PM
Many, many MtF TS people go through a period of thinking themselves "just crossdressers" before they finally get to an understanding and acceptance of themselves. Who are we to to decide where along hir journey any individual may be? By all means, if people are acting inappropriately and disrespectfully, confront them about it, but jeez, afford them the same consideration and respect as we would for ourselves, be it from feminist groups or religious institutions or whatever else.

~Simone.

I have been in public and private meetings with transsexuals who had yet to start HRT and they were doing the best that they could to behave as in their proper gender.  There was no talk of things like dates, breaking a leg to light someone's smoke, or what they did when they last dated a woman who thought they were really a man.

Power never conceded anything without a demand and I personally demand that males leave us alone.  I work at a women's shelter and there is a large sign in the door telling men that they are not to go inside yet they try.  I have not become aware if a woman doing that at a men's shelter.  I stand at the top of the stairs at the entrance to confront them if necessary.

Wing Walker
Talk the Talk, Walk the Walk

Wing Walker, you can also refer yourself to my last post.

This Forum is open. There are also biological females and males who post here. You want an exclusive place, they abound on the internet, but this isn't one of them.

N~

Quote from: pennyjane on July 16, 2008, 03:45:26 PM
i think it is very telling that we seem to have to handle the cd's with kid gloves. it's bashing them to look at them crosseyed.  that attitude i find condescending and sending exactly the wrong signal, it validates the negative attitude of the majority.  let's just be honest about things.....that's showing real respect.

I hear what you are saying honey, but you know, I think we need to be very careful that we end up focussing so much on what makes us different, that we never stop to look at where we HAVE to stand together. There was a news byte on here just a few minutes back, the source to which I posted a response. It won't be past moderation yet, so I include it here:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,39175.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,39175.0.html)

Hi Jim,

You have a point. I'm transsexual, MtF. That is a part of my identity and has little if anything to do with my sexuality. My sexuality swims around somewhere in-between VERY weakly kinda-I-don't-know-maybe-both to entirely, completely asexual. Then again, that probably has a fair bit more to do with baggage than with sexuality.

So you are right, we don't have much in common. Except that we can both get fired by some ignorant arse (yeah, please note the funny spelling - I'm South African :D )for no other reason than that we are different from him. Except that some idiot in a pick-up can get a few buddies together so they can kill either of us over a couple of beers. Except that most places of worship make no welcome, even though we hurt nobody and nothing. Except that, in most places around the world, let alone the US, we are not free to make a covenant to the person we love.

What I'm trying to get at is simple. Some fights are bigger than just one group. Till we are ALL treated fairly, and justly, and without bigotry and hatred, none of our liberties are truly safe.

Ask yourself this honey: If you can stand by while another group is stepped on and spat on, or worse yet, turn around and oppress and discriminate in the same way that you have experienced, do you deserve the liberties you have?

We're minorities, we have common foes and common concerns. And yeah, what you and Wing Walker refer to is a support group rather than a political rally, so maybe a straight CD doesn't have a place there, in fact, he probably doesn't. But at the same time, there are women who say the same thing about us. There are ways to handle people who 'do not belong'. Address issues they do not understand, they do not identify with, and they will most likely feel quite out of place, if not downright uncomfortable. Talk about experiences unique to transsexuals, and they will most likely be completely at odds. And if they don't react with discomfort and dumbfoundedness, then maybe they SHOULD be there.

Hehehe, once you start talking about HRT-induced hot flushes or how much one is looking forward to having one's gonads removed, you separate the straight male from the T pretty quick, in my experience.  ;D

~Simone.


Posted on: 16 July 2008, 16:07:18

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Quote from: Wing Walker on July 16, 2008, 04:04:18 PM
I have been in public and private meetings with transsexuals who had yet to start HRT and they were doing the best that they could to behave as in their proper gender.  There was no talk of things like dates, breaking a leg to light someone's smoke, or what they did when they last dated a woman who thought they were really a man.

Power never conceded anything without a demand and I personally demand that males leave us alone.  I work at a women's shelter and there is a large sign in the door telling men that they are not to go inside yet they try.  I have not become aware if a woman doing that at a men's shelter.  I stand at the top of the stairs at the entrance to confront them if necessary.

I agree hon. But like I said in one of my previous posts - if they act inappropriately or disrespectfully, take them to task, or kick them out. We talk alot about male privilege and power here, and yeah, men take, demand, force. But at a support meeting for trans-people, the trans-people have the power. By banning them all you do is transferring your power to them, because you are almost kinda conceding that they matter to the group. They are guests, until they prove themselves to be family, and if they are unwilling to act as such, they are welcome to leave.

~Simone.

Quote from: tekla on July 16, 2008, 03:19:00 PM
Properly done good exclusion policies can take a single group of a million and make a million groups of one.  And, divide and conquer is a pretty old tactic, and it does work.

But if you can exclude people for 'not being trans enough' then why can't people exclude you for being trans in the first place?

Oh, but transsexuals are excluded for being transsexual in the first place.  Many transsexuals cannot get a job, are homeless, die young by their own hand; they are excluded by their families and friends and marginalized by  the societies in which they live.

Wing Walker

Hi Tekla. I do not like getting into aggressive behaviours from anyone not even from those I am close to so an argument is the last thing I seek. You wish to learn about the life of a transsexual, I will not put it all out here in print but just check back on some older posts I have here in one thread or another and please read. I would sooner someone blew my head off with a double barrel 12 gauge shot gun then to live through that again. Have you ever been raped?

Ya'll have a wonderful day.

Cindy 

Must say this thread is entertaining.

Could we please not get all personal here? Everyone is welcome here no matter their flavor.

Hi Nero hon, yes it certainly was. Like watching a ping pong game. Oh dash burn it, One of them lost the ball  ;D

Cindy

i, personally, have never advocated cd's not be here, or anywhere on the board.  it is a tg site, thus by definition includes cd's.  tg is an umbrella term that runs the gambit from panty fetishist to post-op transsexual.

my objection, and i have tried to say this as clearly as possible, in as many ways as i can...crossdressers are not women, and do not speak for women, when they do it is they who are out of bounds.

the michigan women's music festival is primarily composed of lesbian women.  that is one classification of people who hold us in very low esteem.  to them we are carpetbaggers in that environment.  that is a result of the same dynamic that illigitimizes us in many other forums, but these women seem to feel it with much more intensity.  although i tend to disagree with their limitation to womyn born womyn, i see their point and respect that as a point of view.  a point of view i will argue against, with respect.

for us, across the street at ->-bleeped-<-town is a good forum for making our feelings known and to conduct the debate in person.  i encourage all transsexuals to consider visiting there if they can.

Posted on: 16 July 2008, 16:07:18

---

Quote from: Wing Walker on July 16, 2008, 04:04:18 PM
I have been in public and private meetings with transsexuals who had yet to start HRT and they were doing the best that they could to behave as in their proper gender.  There was no talk of things like dates, breaking a leg to light someone's smoke, or what they did when they last dated a woman who thought they were really a man.

Power never conceded anything without a demand and I personally demand that males leave us alone.  I work at a women's shelter and there is a large sign in the door telling men that they are not to go inside yet they try.  I have not become aware if a woman doing that at a men's shelter.  I stand at the top of the stairs at the entrance to confront them if necessary.

I agree hon. But like I said in one of my previous posts - if they act inappropriately or disrespectfully, take them to task, or kick them out. We talk alot about male privilege and power here, and yeah, men take, demand, force. But at a support meeting for trans-people, the trans-people have the power. By banning them all you do is transferring your power to them, because you are almost kinda conceding that they matter to the group. They are guests, until they prove themselves to be family, and if they are unwilling to act as such, they are welcome to leave.

~Simone.

[/quote]

Hi, Simone,

I do not fully understand what you have written about banning heterosexual males from a meeting of transsexuals being a concession of power.  The hetero males who entered that meeting did so under the thin veneer of their clothes and makeup.  Their presence was most disruptive.  What can they gain from hanging transsexual persons?

Thank you.

Wing Walker

Quote from: Wing Walker on July 15, 2008, 12:38:40 AM
Why is it that heterosexual males will not leave women have their own space? 

A few years ago I belonged to a transsexual support group in the Washington, DC suburbs.  It was put together by transsexuals, for transsexuals, and for many years only transsexuals came to the meetings.  Then the males came in.

Crossdressers, males in female attire and makeup, and they invaded a space for transsexuals.  I knew who and what they were.  they were not hard to spot.  I sat with two friends, M to F, as I was, and we watched and listened as a discussion ensued.  They wanted to be welcome in our meetings!  These males, the ones who crossdress on the weekends and might be the ones to make life miserable on transsexuals on the job and elsewhere, they, and their male privilege, invaded our space.

I was really disgusted by the discussion but what made me ill was when a certain person, let's call her Leslie, rose to speak.  This crossdresser began to speak, telling us that it was necessary to include everyone!  He was wearing black tights, a gray wool dress, black top, boiled wool clogs, and as he spoke, he began to scratch his balls!  He scratched his balls while dressed as a woman, in a room full of transsexuals, M to F and F to M!

There are places for crossdressers to gather where they will be with others of like interest and desires.  There are places like the Tri-Ess (Society for the Second Self) that meet regularly.  Why do they come into places that are labeled as transsexual?

Some things are beyond my ability to understand.

Wing Walker

holy cow, Ms. Walker, i have always thought of you as a very understanding and thoughtful person.

i hang out with cross dressers, on occasion, and lots of them are very charming and sweet.

these are human beings we're talking about here. and for that matter, so are men.

oh wait, i forgot what i was yelling at you about... nevermind.

-Ell

In the early 90's I went to a support group with about 75% were Cd of some sort
that never transitioned, there were the most flamboyant, aggressive and
opinionated of the lot. They were also incredibly self-centered. All the TS
there who were abviously much more messed up (I was having panic attacks
and extreme anxiety at that time), couldn't relate to the CD who always had the
floor. They talked about things I couldn't relate to.

Like I said, I know that nobody transitioned of those CD, so its not
like these pre TS CD's, they were plainly males.

Those groups went so badly that it led to the clear TS groups being split up
from the T's of various kind.

Quote from: pennyjane on July 16, 2008, 04:51:15 PM
i, personally, have never advocated cd's not be here, or anywhere on the board.  it is a tg site, thus by definition includes cd's.  tg is an umbrella term that runs the gambit from panty fetishist to post-op transsexual.

my objection, and i have tried to say this as clearly as possible, in as many ways as i can...crossdressers are not women, and do not speak for women, when they do it is they who are out of bounds.

the michigan women's music festival is primarily composed of lesbian women.  that is one classification of people who hold us in very low esteem.  to them we are carpetbaggers in that environment.  that is a result of the same dynamic that illigitimizes us in many other forums, but these women seem to feel it with much more intensity.  although i tend to disagree with their limitation to womyn born womyn, i see their point and respect that as a point of view.  a point of view i will argue against, with respect.

for us, across the street at ->-bleeped-<-town is a good forum for making our feelings known and to conduct the debate in person.  i encourage all transsexuals to consider visiting there if they can.

Hi, Pennyjane, I do pray you don't have to leave, like I have said before I have come to really like and respect you and your Annie even if I have not met her yet. I know there's a few flaws in these forums; we are only human and this place was perceived and organised by a human mind or maybe several but they are still only human. It was designed with the intent to give all under the umbrella of Transgender a home, that is correct. A place where these humans and brothers and sisters among other shunned and other outcasts, find this place to many like an oasis in that big desert out there.

They come here to share with each other. I have not experienced this recently, thank God, but here were times 8 years ago I spent entire nights up with a suicidal person.  You will find some things on this board that can be challenging, unfortunately we do not think, feel, and perceive things the same way, even if it's about the same subject.  If one is so inclined and have the sensitivity, compassionate and caring love enough to give out to another for some time out of each day to try and help or at least give comfort or share with those who you feel need it

It and that don't matter to me is they are transvestite or Post-op. I know when not to let someone enter my space. They are all people with feelings and emotions and capable to be happy or sad just same as those in society out there. After I got to be full time I worked with other folks in need and that was enough to fill my heart to keep going until the next customer.

I do not want to see Wing Walker or you disappear on this board, I love you guys. That's me that's my nature and was so for as far back as I can remember so my feelings and sensitivities have always been, I don't want to see anyone or anything get hurt. I am the type of person who will bring an injured animal home and end-up wanting to keep it for a pet.

Cindy

Quote from: cindybc on July 16, 2008, 04:46:05 PM
Hi Nero hon, yes it certainly was. Like watching a ping pong game. Oh dash burn it, One of them lost the ball  ;D

Cindy

Oh I wish i could lose both balls...... :-X

Online is different, and this place is made for everybody specifically,
and the T's here are a not like the CD's in those groups I talked
about. These had the empathy of a zombie, here, most people
do take into account the feelings of others (with exceptions
once in a while).

There are plenty of TS only forums out there.  I like having this one too, where TS and CD and IS and NULL and Feminist (did I miss anyone?) can exchange ideas.  It has been instructive so far.

Here are some videos that I think help demonstrate why some TS people are quick to villify CDs, and why some gay people are quick to villify TS people.  Notice the glee with which the brown eyed children place their collars on the blue eyed children on day two.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/view.html

I think that they just misunderstand the true designation of TS. They are TG, which is nice, but for a group of TS, they simply are in the wrong place, and fail to understand. There are issues that are unique to the TS experience, and really don't involve TG, For example, most TS are undergoing HRT, which isn't an issue for CD's. TS issues involve transition, for many of us, it is not an option.  We HAVE TO transition. We discuss SRS and the choice of surgeons, FFS and recovery. Being TS is a MAJOR ISSUE in itself.

I've been to TG support meetings in New York City. It's a diverse TG drop in group, sometimes few show up, sometimes 40 people. There is a topic for the evening, some more interesting than others. I'm continually amazed at the diversity of gender awareness, and the way that people express their unique gender identities. I may not find the group discussing what I may prefer to hear, but I like people, and  I can have a pleasant evening.

We all have issues. We all have cross gendered feelings that are strong enough to need to be addressed. The urgency of those feelings varies widely, as is the way that individuals deal with their feelings, but it still comes down to all of us being people. And on that level, I can enjoy the meeting.

My view is colored by my experiences in life. I was socialized as a female into my teens. I had absolutely no male skills or social understanding. It destroyed my adult life beyond belief, and I'll probably see my therapist years post-op. I've learned to appreciate the community in all of its' diversity. Not a bad thing.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 16, 2008, 06:11:26 PM
There are plenty of TS only forums out there.  I like having this one too, where TS and CD and IS and NULL and Feminist (did I miss anyone?) can exchange ideas.  It has been instructive so far.

Here are some videos that I think help demonstrate why some TS people are quick to villify CDs, and why some gay people are quick to villify TS people.  Notice the glee with which the brown eyed children place their collars on the blue eyed children on day two.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/view.html

You could add maybe bi-and multi-gendered people, Glenda. Personally I think you are absolutely right.

I was exclusively on five MTF-TS-only boards when I first came to Susan's and at first was kinda taken aback by the fact that this was so not strictly TS. But, I have to say that among CDs, Androgynes, non- and multi-gendered people, as well as Fs, Ms, FTMs & MTFs I have come to truly appreciate opinions and life-experiences that have not been my own at all.

There is good in diversity and hearing and actually paying attention to things that are said and thought by people unlike myself. (I know why I have so loved my big-city jobs: I've worked with pretty much everyone.) There is nothing demeaning or bad about different povs, styles and lives at all. In fact, to have that is enriching for me.

Nichole

I hate these kinds of discussions,

I started out as a cross dresser and found out I was TS. To me we all TG and it is how we react to that fact is different. It is only recenty I knew I was female, I always said I was male but gee was I wrong. And last night I seams to confirm that when I told my specalist "If I go off HRT I get rid of Alice all together". I started out as a CD but for some reason I know hate that thought. We need to allow for interaction between everyone so that people can discover more about themselves.

Alice

Shouldn't a support group be allowed to define the support they offer?

I never attended all-embracing TG groups specifically because I knew they embraced everyone and all issues, and were mostly for providing a safe place for people to be "enfemme" for an evening, allowing them to compare and share with others doing the same. I didn't look down on them, it just wasn't what I needed.

On the other hand, I attended my therapist's support group because it was specifically for people transitioning, and I could relate to the issues being discussed. Again, it wasn't a "better than" thing, it was just being practical and focused.

Getting back to the original question, instead of saying "No Crossdressers Allowed," why not just say "this group exists to support those in transition?" Then you don't have to get into all this political argument about who is and isn't a "Real TS" and all that.

~Kate~

To comment here, I guess I will have to take up the category of CD.

Going back to Wing Walkers original post, I actually think the comments are totally justified.
Like Kate says, as CD I would not expect to enter a TS support group unless something changed
and I met the entry requirements (and hence needs), or I was invited as a guest for specific meetings.

However there is no reason a suppport group can't also have additional open meetings, or
open social events for the wider community to exchange views.

There is also a big difference between corresponding on difficult subjects on a forum, and trying
to discuss the same topics face to face in a group.

My particular problem now, as Simone and Alice have pointed out, is that I don't feel I can relate
to either a CD group or a TS group. So you find me here trying to to resolve what I am, and where
I'm going, before I feel ready to participate in support group dynamics again.

I endorse Nichole's view that Susan's is a rich and dynamic source of interacting viewpoints that I
have not found on other forums....

So again thank you all.... :icon_clap:

:icon_hug:

Chrissty

i love diversity, it's what life is all about.  if anyone read my story of introduction one of the three people i love most in this world was mentioned, he is a crossdresser, and a most wonderful man.  he and "susan" and i are always together, we all go out of our ways often to see each other and share.  that he crossdresses is not an issue, susan and i love him because he is who he is and is comfortable with himself.  we have very different experiences, susan has gotten herself into transisiton now, "linda" has retired and living with her wife of some fifty years very comfortably.  we are still "kukla, fran and ollie".  ok, alot of you haven't a clue about that...just say we are very close.
we are different and we respect that.  none of us feels better or smarter or more legitimate then the other.  it's not hard, it's just respect.  i respect him as an individual, he has a lot to offer as a friend and a confidant.

drag is a problem for transsexuals.  to people who do drag they are intentionally creating an illusion, the point is being a man in a dress.  for ts's that's the antithesis of how we want to be seen.  but it's an image that is out there and more animated and outrageous and powerful then we are and yet we are tagged with the that image.  it's something we have to learn to live with.  we don't have to be brilliant to see that...those of us who are in transition know all about it, we live it every day.  it's an image we have to live down.

but, i would never suggest that drag is illigitimate.  it is not.  the fact that it is a problem for me is my problem, they have every right to live their lives as they see fit.

and so we go back to the antithesis thing.  illusion vs. reality.  neither is illigitimate, but they are different.  different at their core.

men and women are different.  there are many men i admire and respect and even love, but i don't love them because they are like me, i love them because they are good as what they are.  acknowledging difference is the only way we can truly respect diversity.  making us all the same isn't celebrating our diversity, it's congealing it, conveluting it into misunderstanding.  just as there are many, many black people i admire and respect.  i don't admire and respect them because they are black, but because they are good people.  and i would never, never try to tell them about their experience as blacks in our culture.  i love that they are them and i am me.  what i love best is when we all admire and respect each other while fully understanding and appreciating our differences.

that old stevie wonder and paul mccartney song makes so much sense, and not just about black and white, but about all different people, "ebony and ivory".

so yes, i like being in a diverse group.  there is something each of us can add to the whole.  i think we can do that best by not telling others how they should or should not be or think, but share what we think and acknowledge it as ours.  own it.  respect is a two way street, if it isn't reciprecal it will pot hole up and fall apart.i hope we can share our experiences with others without judgement or saying my way is better then yours.  that's the kind of group i like being among, and for the most part that's the kind of people i've found here at susan's.

so maybe as i told tasha the other day, sometimes a blow up can be a good thing.  maybe we all can clear the air and take a look at how we treat each other and see if that's really how we want to do it.

peace to you all.

Quote from: Kate on July 16, 2008, 08:01:19 PM
Getting back to the original question, instead of saying "No Crossdressers Allowed," why not just say "this group exists to support those in transition?" Then you don't have to get into all this political argument about who is and isn't a "Real TS" and all that.

Wing Walker earlier asked what I had meant by giving power to a group by banning them. This is kinda what I meant. By defining very clearly what the scope of a group is, YOU control what happens there, because everybody enters the group implicitly agreeing to that definition. If they step outside that definition and become inappropriate or disrespectful, the other members of the group are completely within their rights to ask you to leave.

The alternative really boils down to profiling and stereotyping, and we've all been on the receiving end of that. People act inappropriately for many reasons, as often fear and bravado as everything else. A TS who has only ever been exposed to "loud CD's" will most likely adopt a similar attitude, until given a forum in which to observe and learn differently. I never knew the difference between CD and TS growing up. I was ignorant and uninformed, and because my community adopted the attitude that people dressing up as members of the opposite sex and who wanted to be members of the opposite sex were sinful, sick or just plain evil, I adopted those attitudes, internalised them against myself, and shut down. It was only because I got out of that environment when I went to university and had the opportunity to learn about and understand diversity that I began to become more accepting, and it was only on a different continent, when I went to Taiwan, that I had the guts to start accepting myself as different, and that only because I had broadband and was lucky enough to live in one of the most diverse cities I've yet come across - Taipei.

We forget that people are not always what they appear, and even when they kinda are, they may have surprising and wonderful things in them. By excluding we run the risk of missing people. By including narrowly, by welcoming everybody, BUT by making sure that they understand very clearly what the scope of your group/venue/whatever is, kinda as Kate describes, the chances of missing people who may really need help, but ended up "falling in" with a different group 'cause it was all they knew, or who act with bravado to hide fear and ignorance, we may just end up being much more support than we would've been.

The only thing I would change in Kate's approach is to also describe what we mean by transition, because even today, not everybody knows what that is, or that it's even possible.

~Simone.

Welcome to the jungle
We take it day by day
If you want it you're gonna bleed
But it's the price you pay
And you're a very sexy girl
That's very hard to please
You can taste the bright lights
But you won't get them for free
In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Feel my, my, my serpentine
I, I wanna hear you scream


I did a year as a girl, found out that it was too much, I wanted at least 1/4 of the time as a guy.  Its better to find that out now, then later.

QuoteI started out as a CD but for some reason I know hate that thought. We need to allow for interaction between everyone so that people can discover more about themselves.

Alice

Alice,  I believe I was one of those in this board who was there to extend my hand to you.

Quotethis group exists to support those in transition?" Then you don't have to get into all this political argument about who is and isn't a "Real TS" and all that.

~Kate~

I quite agree Kate hon.

QuoteI never knew the difference between CD and TS growing up. I was ignorant and uninformed, and because my community adopted the attitude that people dressing up as members of the opposite sex and who wanted to be members of the opposite sex were sinful, sick or just plain evil, I adopted those attitudes, internalised them against myself, and shut down.

~Simone.

My experience from before I even knew what the word transsexual meant I heard those same horrid things and for many years repressed everything inside. I quite agree with, do I know what transitioning means? Well it's what you feel, think and believe with conviction who you truly are and nothing can dissuade you to be otherwise. I have left a pretty good long list of my thoughts and feeling on my personal transitioning all over this board and I ain't goin back to fetch them. At least to my way of thinking is you better know or you will end up one lost puppy. But then who am I to say where the dividing line is, I am only the door keep to this business. 

Cindy the door keep.

Quote from: cindybc on December 15, 1999, 02:35:51 PM
My experience from before I even knew what the word transsexual meant I heard those same horrid things and for many years repressed everything inside. I quite agree with, do I know what transitioning means? Well it's what you feel, think and believe with conviction who you truly are and nothing can dissuade you to be otherwise. I have left a pretty good long list of my thoughts and feeling on my personal transitioning all over this board and I ain't goin back to fetch them. At least to my way of thinking is you better know or you will end up one lost puppy. But then who am I to say where the dividing line is, I am only the door keep to this business. 

Oh, I knew from like 5 that I was definitely, entirely female, but I also became convinced there was something horribly, terribly wrong with me and promptly tried real hard NOT to feel that way. I did not know about transition, and the few transgendered people I came across were "men who lived as women" in tabloid magazines, in a country where you could still get chucked in jail or whipped for being gay till about 1990. People's situations differ Cindy, their access to information differs, and how they react to it differs. I know who I am, and am not lost.

~Simone.

Quotethis group exists to support those in transition?" Then you don't have to get into all this political argument about who is and isn't a "Real TS" and all that.

Quote

the question of what is a "real" ts is not for public consumption.  this is a matter best left between oneself and most trusted confidants.  spouse, sibling, parent, therapist, pastor or very good friend.  a "real" ts is someone who believes themselves to be ts.  i don't think we can or even should get into that discussion.  i just don't see how one can be real or false.  it's kind of like being pregnant, you can't be just somewhat so...you are either transsexual or you are not.

of course, those of us who are old enough have spent years and years in confusion, not knowing if we were anything at all, except just being crazy.  yes, there were times in my past when i was happy with thinking of myself as a latent crossdresser.  that's what i wanted to think and that's what i made myself believe, it seemed somewhat less crazy to me then transsexual, and something it seemed to me i could have more control over.  submitting myself to my transsexualism took alot of humility and loss of control.  when i self-identified in that manner for all intents and purposes that's what i was.  i don't think it was anybody's business to tell me that..."no, you are a transsexual."  even though they may have been right i wouldn't have believed them and probably wouldn't have liked very much their imposing their reality on mine.  it probably would have just left me more adament in my own beliefs.  i had to discover myself for myself.

Quote

Hi Simone.
I do agree hon to each his own and each of us had to find their own way to accept who they are. For a long time I thought I was a TV because that was the only one i was familiar with and I certainly didn't want anyone to know. Even when I first heard of Christine Jorgensen I remember thinking to myself that she was a transvestite that had gone one step to far. That was how well informed I was. About the lost puppy statement it was meant for whom ever has any doubts they should take their time to rethink what they are about to do, that is not just a game. And yes we all travel different trails to get to where we want to go.

Cindy the door keep

Quote from: pennyjane on July 16, 2008, 02:09:21 PMthis person seemed to have absolutely no clue as to how women feel is because he isn't one....he's a man.

Among the many troubling things you wrote, I guess this is the one that I find the most troubling. You complain about men being dismissive; it doesn't help to respond in kind.

For all human history, authors, poets, and playwrights have explored the feelings of old and young, rich and poor, strangers and countrymen, parents and children, and indeed, women and men. This requires no special Vulcan mind-melding talent, but merely a modicum of human empathy. In The Shipping News, Postcards, and Brokeback Mountain Annie Proulx has written of the experience of men as few have done before. Similarly, in Atonement, Ian McEwan writes about women with a depth and sensitivity others rarely achieve.

The gender divide is certainly the most significant in human culture. Yet it is significant only because we make it so. Men and women are so much more alike in all our experiences than we are different. Your take on diversity, pennyjane, seems to me to be so much about rigid categories that cannot be violated. I'm sorry, but I don't accept this vision. I won't dismiss anyone's point of view for membership in some class. I might wonder how that identity colors the point of view, but this only adds, never takes away.

On the gender divide and uniqueness of human experience:

Quote from: Douglas Hofstadter
In his wanderings, Loocus the Thinker one day comes across an unknown
object -- a woman.  Such a thing he has never seen before, and at first
he is wondrous thrilled at her likeness to himself; but then, slightly
scared of her as well, he cries to all the men about him, "Behold! I
can look upon her face, which is something she cannot do -- therefore
women can never be like me!"  And thus he proves man's superiority over
women, much to his relief, and that of his male companions.  Incidentally,
the same argument proves that Loocus is superior to all other males, as
well -- but he doesn't point that out to them.  The woman argues back:
"Yes, you can see my face, which is something I can't do -- but I can
see your face, which is something you can't do! We're even."  However,
Loocus comes up with an unexpected counter:  "I'm sorry, you're deluded
if you think you can see my face.  What you women do is not the same as
what we men do -- it is, as I have already pointed out, of an inferior
caliber, and does not deserve to be called by the same name.  You may call
it 'womanseeing'.  Now the fact that you can 'womansee' my face is of no
import, because the situation is not symmetric. You see?"  "I womansee,"
womanreplies the woman, and womanwalks away...
        --Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid

On the importance of categories:

Quote from: Ferris BeullerI'm not European. I don't plan on being European. So who cares if they're socialists? They could be fascist anarchists. It still doesn't change the fact that I don't own a car. Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in The Beatles, I just believe in me." Good point there. After all, he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people.

Cheers! :P

~Alyssa

i agree with Alyssa M.

let's not start talking badly about cross dressers and men. that's what the fundies do to all of us.

-Ell

I find this whole topic tremendously amusing.  I laugh to think that there are TSs who wish to exclude CDs because they say they are men, then turn around and object to GGs who exclude TSs because they say they are men.  The absurdity is patently obvious, and is just a reflection of the heirarchy of power and privilege.  As each group pushes through the door it slams that same door in the faces of those who would follow them.

hi alyssa.  sounded to me as if the guy in your quote had no clue as to how women felt.  doesn't surprise me, most men don't.

I have been full time for 8 years and have conversed with both women and men. I have met many men an women who were equal in empathy, and there are jerks and dangerous people about and sadly enough many, actually most of these are male. Whom of those turn out to be the ones that will leave  a trans person in an alleyway to die of multiple stab wounds. I treat everyone equally and I am there for anyone who needs suport. All I can say is I believe that trans people are developing a 6th sense and it can't happen quickly enough.

Well now insult on injury last week when I was at the Vancouver TS suport group there was this Spanish TS girl, realy good looking girl, she had come with a female friend, non TS, who had came along to be her interpreter. Her interpreter friend was asked to leave the room. I was somewhat disturbed about that and went out of the room to talk to the lady interpreter, fortunately everything was fine, I returned to the room and I was relieved to see that she had found another Spanish translator TS girl to sit with her.

No comments on that one, I will only ask what every ones opinion is on both my posts and I promise I don't bite ankles.

Cindy  the door keep

So, pennyjane, you agree with the J. R. Lucas caricature? Ignoring which is "superior," you believe in "womanseeing" as being distinct from "manseeing"?

I don't care who is claiming the superiority of his or her gender. Either way, it's bunk.

--

Yes, to the extent that men experience male privilege (especially the ability to not notice the existence of male privilege), it's hard for them to understand what the lack of male privilege means. I take it from your profile that you are white. There are many kinds of privilege in this world.

good lord!  this is going from the sublime to the utterly absurd.  can anyone show me one place where i have disparaged men?  i have said that for the most part men don't understand women.  for goodness sakes, people....for the most part that's definately true.  go out on the street and ask the first man you see if he understands women.

  i have never held my gender up as superior.  for a group who scream so loudly about how much we all love diversity we have a very funny way of showing it.  seems that acknowledging any difference in anything is disparaging. i have never held my gender up as superior, you read that into my posts yourself, it's a reflexion of you...not me.  i don't believe anyone is superior to anyone else.  seems to be a very lonely attitude of late.  i am not one who defines difference as superior or inferior. when you do that you end up hating and fearing what is different.  i don't do either of those things.  i embace differences....it's what life is all about.  it doesn't scare me at all.

what i agreed to, alyssa, was that the man in your example didn't seem to have a clue about women.  why you chose that as an example of your condemnation of my saying men don't understand women is beyond me. 

yes, i am white.  i enjoy the privilege that goes with that in this culture.  i will be glad when that is over, i don't like it one bit!  and i am different then black people in my experience...as much as i empathize with and am sickened by how black people have been treated in our country, i cannot and never would propose that i understood their journey as they do.  that wouldn't make a bit of sense to me.  i enjoy the white privilege whether i like it or not, it's not my choice.

i understand the male privilege in our culture as well.  i don't like it either, but again...it's not my call.  i cannot fantasize it away.  it's real and as best i can figure is going to be with us for a long time.  having experienced the male privilege and the female privilege i know the difference, believe me.

dr erin swensen, as far as i know the only protestant ordained minister ever to have transitioned on the job and retained her ordination put it this way when asked the difference:

i keep bumping into people.

now, she is a phd and i'm sure could have come up with alot of theories and used alot of big words and said alot of things most of us couldn't understand, but what she said was:

i keep bumping into people.

says it all.

Quote from: pennyjane on July 17, 2008, 03:30:58 PM
dr erin swensen, as far as i know the only protestant ordained minister ever to have transitioned on the job and retained her ordination put it this way when asked the difference:

She is not the only, but she is the first.

Lisbeth, the question is not excluding CD's from a rock concert (like some women
group have done to TS), but excluding them from support groups
that discuss TS specific issues.

A support group has a mandate related as much to the subjects
discussed as who it includes. If it wants to include CD's
and subjects relating to them, it has to change its mandate.
Then, those TS who were looking for something else
out of that group can leave it and seek another one elsewhere.

If I've got a soccer game going, should I just include a
baseball player because he would feel left out?
Too different games played by different people,
if the soccer game is now a baseball game, I expect
that only a few soccer players will remain to play the
new game...

Some feminists want to exclude TS of "woman's space"
like rock concerts, because they're not woman and
men are evil... That's not the same reason behind
not including CD in a TS support group.

Oh, forget it. This isn't going anywhere. We're just talking past each other. I'm sorry if I offended.

~Alyssa

Quote from: Keira on July 17, 2008, 04:02:32 PM
Some feminists want to exclude TS of "woman's space"
like rock concerts, because they're not woman and
men are evil... That's not the same reason behind
not including CD in a TS support group.

As soon at the reason is given as "because they're men," it becomes the same reason and the same issue.

hi lisbeth...that's wonderful news!  who has followed her if i may ask?

Posted on: July 17, 2008, 05:00:30 PM

---

alot of us do get upset when gg's don't want to accept us.  it is upsetting and off hand seems so very unfair.  i have tried to understand what the big issue is about it.  from the women i've talked to about it i think it comes down to that they just don't see us as real.  they don't buy into the basic premise of transsexualism.  to them we seem like interlopers from male society barging in and asserting our male dominance again.  i really don't find that position too hard to understand.  women have been putting up with that dynamic for an awful long time and some have just gotten pretty sick of it.

and....and please don't no one take offense...but many of the women we are talking about here are lesbians.  they have grown up in and circulate in the gay community.  their experience is largely with males doing female illusion.  or the effeminate gay men who go around calling each other "girl" and that sort of stuff.  they don't see nearly as many of us so it's not easy for them to seperate us out.  i could be wrong, but i think with time and with education, telling them the truth about us, we can turn some of that around.  it just doesn't seem to me that this is a door that can be knocked down with brute force.  i think it's more likely to respond to persistent, principled and respectful knocking.  just an opinion.

I think it is wrong for lesbians to exclude lesbian transwomen on the basis that they are not women.  It is like excluding black people on the basis that they are not people.  Lesbian transwomen ARE women, regardless of whether lesbians see them as such.  Excluding CDs from a TS group does seem to fall along the same lines.  Are they excluded because they are not women?  Would it be OK to exclude them on the basis that they are a different kind of women?  Would it be OK for lesbians to exclude lesbian transwomen on the basis that they are a different kind of women?  Would it be OK to exclude black people on the basis that they are a different kind of people?  Now it's true that under the law private clubs can exclude black people. Does that make it not despicable?  It is a tough issue because I would certainly want a TS only support group during transition.  But such groups exclude cisgendered women too.  I think it comes down to the fact that such groups are not reserved fro women only, but for women having a particular condition.  It is like a support group for women cancer pateints excluding other women who don;t have cancer.  For lesbians to exclude lesbian transwomen is not like that though.  It is just hate.

Quote from: pennyjane on July 17, 2008, 06:00:40 PM
hi lisbeth...that's wonderful news!  who has followed her if i may ask?

I don't have any kind of list, but there's one serving a Lutheran congregation in Minneapolis.  At the moment I don't remember the name.

well, glenda i take your point and admire the premise.  but let's take it one step further.  how about a group for the ancestors of african american slaves...would it be hate for them to exclude the ancestors of american slave owners?  although they are both a part of the same past their histories are very different.

a colorblind society is better then a bigoted society, but a color rich society would be better then that.  in my opinion a genderblind society is better then a gender bigoted society but a gender rich society tops that.  i don't see why we can't see the differences in our genders as beautiful.  i don't understand why difference has to lead to hate.  it doesn't to me, without differences we'd be a black and white species, colorless...drab.  it's the differences that add color.  if eveybody was just like me...wow...how boring.  it's the differences that draw us to one another.  letting the differences draw us apart doesn't make sense to me...that's where bigotry comes from.

so, if some women insist that we are not of them, condemning them won't make that go away.  celebrating our differences will eventually bring us together.

i am not gg and i will never be gg.  the truth is i'm very happy with being trans.  when i say "i'm just another woman" i think i'm being just a little disingenuous.  i'm not.  i'm a rare and beautiful woman.  a woman composed more of spirit then of matter.  i've had to seek and search for and to fight for my femininity, it wasn't just handed to me on a silver platter.  i'm very different then most other women, and i'm very proud of the woman i am.  i think i appreciate my femininity more then most. 

all this makes me different, not better, not worse, just.....colorful.

I'm getting really mad here.
Please read and discuss what I said,
not what you wish I had said.

I talked about SUPPORT groups with a particular MANDATE,
(say discussing and supporting TG people at large)
not a general event like a concert.

If the support groups want to accept TG's at large,
it should change its mandate and thus
people who want to stay in that group can
and others who thinks it no longer fits them can leave.

I'll go back and kick some cans now...   ::)

hi kiera.  i hear you and i agree.  i don't think there's anything in the world wrong with people of like mind and like goals to want to meet exclusively.  makes perfect sense to me.

exactly why i don't go to tg support group meetings anymore.  the ones around here are dominated by cd's, and thus naturally the general conversation is cd oriented.  bores me silly.  that's not putting down cd's, it's just saying that the things that interest them generally don't interest me.  i like a little talk about the fashions of the day and if someone has something really new and works in the way of makeup i hope they'll share it with me.  but...that's enough of that.

i am more interested in the working dynamics of transition and the political positions that i think will further our goals...that is mainstreaming transsexuals.  the glitz and glamour aspect of my interest lasts about one and half minutes on a good day.

i don't think it's bigoted to say that for crossdressers the illusion is the end product.  that's what they are doing.  for transsexuals, settled in ones at least, that quickly becomes part of our history.  we find our personal look and pretty much stay with it.  cd's often go to these places, meeting and parties and such because it's a place for them to dress up and go.  some ts's go for the same reasons, especially when they are young or new...pre-transition.  not a thing in the world wrong with it, but i don't need such a place anymore.  dressing enfemme everyday gets routine, it doesn't excite me at all.

so, although there is a place for the tg thing to work, i also see a place where the cental issues of each subgroup diverge enough to need exclusive space just in order to keep on topic, to stay focused.

susan's is a tg group.  it works here.  i like it here.  but i also like being exclusively with ts's in some forums and for some purposes.

Hmmmm, again I find myself a wee bit confused as to why trans people have such hang-ups with society. I either have a horseshoe up my butt or I live a charmed life. I have been 8 years living full time and I have never had to question myself, nor have I ever been confused on the issue of being TS.

For most of those 8 years I never found any reason to think of myself being anything but GG, especially after SRS. I got along with everyone, both women and men at work and out and about town. In the little town I started out in, after a time all knew me as being Cindy and I dressed as such, presenting in the proper gender. No big miracle or any thing really unusual, outside of that I know how to communicate with people, and I love doing so.

I didn't feel like I had to go stealth or hold anything back from anyone. All that had changed was my attitude, how I felt and cared about the folks I was involved with on a daily basis. I had just begun full time when my friend left me in care of her three children; for two years. Feeding them, taking them to school in the morning, going to work as a social worker, then go pick them up again after school, cook supper, do the laundry, and put them to bed. I would never have been able to do it if it weren't for my love for children.

I did some growing up during those two years and certainly didn't have time to even think about my transsexuality although I presented as who I was. I got some hand-me-downs from the girls at work and the Salvation Army. I wasn't really making that much money, but the kids and I got by, and to tell the truth those two years were the happiest years I had had since I had my own kids under my roof. Believe it or not that's the way it was for me. I still do the same type of work here and enjoy working with folks. But I will add only that a woman's shelter is sacred only to women.  Men try not to recognize that as they keep on trying to get past the front door in spite of the sign telling them that the place is for women only.

Cindy       

One day there was this gathering of cross-dressers and they were talking and having a fun meeting and then, out of the blue comes this large group of Transsexuals, who just barged in and started taking over the place! it was like, they were being invaded by this so-called group of so-called peeps, if you will (and i think you will).

Well, of course after the transsexuals show up, here comes an intersex group, and, right after them, those dang non-binary androgynes, followed by a couple of FTM's with all their male space-invader ways, and followed by, worst of all, a few lactose-intolerants.  Sheesh!

-Ellie

Since there are about 20x the number of CD's
than TS, I see much more CD's invading
TS groups than the opposite, but what the
hey, 18 years and dozens of groups is
just a fluke...
Or I'm just in a pissy mood...  >:D

As I bow out of this discussion I want to note that when I first became a board member of Lutherans Concerned, there were a number of people who thought that including TSs would be a fine thing, but they weren't comfortable with the idea of accepting a bunch of CDs.  During my time on the board I worked constantly to let people know that discrimination is always discrimination and that the mission of LC is to support people of all sexual orientations and gender identities.

this is simple.  men don't belong in women's spaces.  period.

Quotesusan's is a tg group.  it works here.  i like it here.  but i also like being exclusively with ts's in some forums and for some purposes.

That's the key, that quote is the key to this argument. When this discussion began, by the end of the second post it seemed to be a carry-over from another discussion of a few nights ago when there was some disagreement about whether or not a CD should have the right to say something about their thoughts in a "TS thread" or to a "TS person."

If that argument had been taking place on the MTF "Just for Us" forum there would have been no problem in the first place. The person in question would not have been able to have seen the statements and, hence, would have made no reply. Thus, no argument.

Wing Walker started a thread here afterwards about CDs in TS support groups. A reasonable discussion, or so it seemed to me. The difficulty began when another poster continued the remarks begun the night before from that other thread. That almost immediately made this discussion about, once more, the night before, instead of the perfectly sane disagreement that Wing Walker started with: CDs and TSes do not necessarily even begin to understand one another and mixed support groups do not work well.

Having experienced a primarily CD support-group, thinking at first, because of their advertising, that it was TS, I readily agree to Wing Walker's initial contention. That group divided into TS and CD groups after a business meeting of about 1/2 hour. Effectively 2 separate groups meeting at the same time. That seemed to work.

This forum is not segregated in that fashion, unless a post is made in the "Just For Us" area appropriate to someone's identity.

Support groups, as in those out in the "real world," can be and are.

The arguments here are now going at cross-purposes to one another and are only here for the sake of argument, so it seems to me. I totally agree with Tasha's comment. I also agree with, given the context, every last person who has posted on this thread. But these remain double-contexts.

This board is a TG board until and unless Susan changes the nature of it. If someone wants their posts CD-, androgyne- or ftm-free of commentary: then post your comments in the mtf "Just For Us" spaces provided. What and how anyone fashions their lives away from this board, with whom they talk or do not talk, with whom or without whom they go to "support" meetings, is strictly their own business and not subject to Forum Rules. These threads ARE subject to Forum Rules.

Live your lives, people, and allow others to live theirs. You want a room-of-your own? Use it, you already have it.

Nichole

Quote from: ell on July 18, 2008, 02:01:59 AM
One day there was this gathering of cross-dressers and they were talking and having a fun meeting and then, out of the blue comes this large group of Transsexuals, who just barged in and started taking over the place! it was like, they were being invaded by this so-called group of so-called peeps, if you will (and i think you will).

Well, of course after the transsexuals show up, here comes an intersex group, and, right after them, those dang non-binary androgynes, followed by a couple of FTM's with all their male space-invader ways, and followed by, worst of all, a few lactose-intolerants.  Sheesh!
-Ellie

yes, i know ell.  i was at that party.  we were all having a bunch of fun.  it wasn't the lactose-intolerants that ended the fun though, but when the aa crowd showed up and started insisting that we have to close the bar...well, things just went down hill from there.  the party was over early for all intents and purposes.

Hi all, I truly don't like to see people flaming about other people that I agree does not belong in the affairs of TS. I am not certain who opened the thread Just for us but pleas check it out, you may find it more to your liking for discussing sensitive subjects.

You will Find Just For Us   at
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,39331.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,39331.0.html)

Again thanks to whom ever set it up.

Cindy

I must mention at this point that I am a Co-Admin for a 'Transgendered' board, one that accepts as members anyone that is either TS/TV/TG/CD or any person that respects and admires such people.  It is rather different to this board in that it covers areas that may not be appropiate here but it is not set up to exclude anyone unless they break the one rule that matters most and that is to show respect for us.

I joined Susan's because it was different and it allows me to just take part and read and discuss matters as a transsexual woman with other twomen as an equal with no duties to monitor or edit or make rulings etc...this particular thread has justified my decision to join  :)

Susan set it up Cindy and it is NOT a new space, it's been here for some time.

N~

there's also a Discrimination section, which is where this thread belongs.

-Ell

Hi Nichole, I just happen to see it a couple of days ago when I was going down the list of different forums looking for something else, Hmmm maybe I was abducted by aliens or something, "hee, hee, hee." Just kiddin. But that's the way it goes, I know I need glasses but I hate the darn things.

Cindy 

Posted on: July 18, 2008, 01:46:51 PM

---

Hi Ell I don't believe I will be going there. But if you would post the thread for it here it maybe more convenient for those who are blind like me.

Cindy

Quote from: ell on July 18, 2008, 01:40:26 PM
there's also a Discrimination section, which is where this thread belongs.

-Ell

PMS ZONE  this is a place to get it off your chest!  "it" as far as i can make out is an undefined pronoun in this context.

Look-it. most of the lately made comments on this thread have been rather innocuous. Please keep them that way. PJ's comment was perfectly appropriate. As were Cindy's and Ellie has every right to opine that a thread might seem to her better fit for another board.

So, keep them in-line with those comments, please. No need to lock a thread if people don't have to feel like they have to convert others. How much does that occur among gender-variants anyhow?  :laugh: :laugh:

Thanks so much,

Nichole

Quote from: Natasha on July 18, 2008, 09:21:59 AM
this is simple.  men don't belong in women's spaces.  period.

This is your statement turned around.  Women don't belong in men's spaces.  Period.

Or how about this one.  Blacks don't belong in White's spaces.  Period.

It depends on what the space is, doesn't it, together with the grounds for categorizing the groups differently.  It is, perhaps, reasonable to exclude women from men's restrooms, but not so reasonable to classify an FTM as female.  It is not reasonable to exclude Black's from White's restrooms.  I don't think it is reasonable to callsify a TS support group as women's space, either, especially if it is open to FTMs.  And if a TS group is only open to TS women, a CD is not excluded on the basis that she is not a woman.  And I don't think it is fair to say that a CD is never a woman.  If a CD chooses to say she is a woman when presenting as such, then I say she is right, and should be welcome in women's restrooms, for example.

hi glenda.  that's where i draw the line.  maybe it's generational but i do not want a man, i don't care how he's dressed, in the bathroom with me.  period.  in fact i would personally feel less comfortable with a man dressed in women's clothing then a generic male.  my assumption is, and i don't think it's a rare assumption, at least among my generation, that a man who is dressed in women's clothing is presently involved in a sexual act.  one doesn't have to be handling his genitalia to be experiencing erotic fantasies.  of course that isn't always true, but it's not an unreasonable assumption.  while it's not rape, it is sexual abuse to involve one person in another's sexual act without their approval.

knowing the difference by visual assessment may not be practical and the benefit of the doubt should go to the individual, but if i KNOW he's a man, i don't want him in there with me.  if it's a one room potty where one can lock the door for her privacy and a man comes in by himself it doesn't bother me...<as long as he doesn't pee all over the place>...but then i wouldn't want a woman to do that either.

there are times when i have gone into a public restroom for the express purposes of making adjustment to something i might need to at least partially undress to fix.  maybe it's old fashioned but at least in me it's deeply embedded, modestly won't allow me to undress in front of men without a darn good reason.  other people may have different sensibilities about this but i am not ready to have that sensibility imposed on me yet and it has nothing to do with my transness.  i guess that's one part of my thinking that lends me to the "just another woman" club.

Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 18, 2008, 02:19:38 PM

Quote from: Natasha on July 18, 2008, 09:21:59 AM
this is simple.  men don't belong in women's spaces.  period.

This is your statement turned around.  Women don't belong in men's spaces.  Period.

Or how about this one.  Blacks don't belong in White's spaces.  Period.

It depends on what the space is, doesn't it, together with the grounds for categorizing the groups differently.  It is, perhaps, reasonable to exclude women from men's restrooms, but not so reasonable to classify an FTM as female.  It is not reasonable to exclude Black's from White's restrooms.  I don't think it is reasonable to callsify a TS support group as women's space, either, especially if it is open to FTMs.  And if a TS group is only open to TS women, a CD is not excluded on the basis that she is not a woman.  And I don't think it is fair to say that a CD is never a woman.  If a CD chooses to say she is a woman when presenting as such, then I say she is right, and should be welcome in women's restrooms, for example.

cd's have a male gender identification; consequently that makes them men.  wearing a dress every rainy saturday doesn't make anyone a woman, not on my book.   that's my opinion btw.

Quotecd's have a male gender identification; consequently that makes them men.  wearing a dress every rainy saturday doesn't make anyone a woman, not on my book.   that's my opinion btw.

This statement, as it stands as written and taken literally, is correct and one that agree with.  As a law student, I would use it in the literal sence if I was having to present a case in a court room but it struggles if we have to live in this politically correct world where diversity rules what we can say or write or do etc.,    another variable is with genetic women that decide, for whatever reason, to only ever wear trousers/pants and have rejected skirts, we never call them crossdressers.....here lies the conundrum.  Those women are still women regardless of how they appear dressed, I am a woman likewise because in my opinion, I have chosen to live as such and dress accordingly to how I believe I wish to appear to others.

However, as for men in a dress on a rainy Saturday wanting to spend time with me and my friends? er.....no thanks  :-\ 

Quote from: pennyjane on July 18, 2008, 02:52:57 PM
hi glenda.  that's where i draw the line.  maybe it's generational but i do not want a man, i don't care how he's dressed, in the bathroom with me.  period.  in fact i would personally feel less comfortable with a man dressed in women's clothing then a generic male.  my assumption is, and i don't think it's a rare assumption, at least among my generation, that a man who is dressed in women's clothing is presently involved in a sexual act.  one doesn't have to be handling his genitalia to be experiencing erotic fantasies.  of course that isn't always true, but it's not an unreasonable assumption.  while it's not rape, it is sexual abuse to involve one person in another's sexual act without their approval.

knowing the difference by visual assessment may not be practical and the benefit of the doubt should go to the individual, but if i KNOW he's a man, i don't want him in there with me.  if it's a one room potty where one can lock the door for her privacy and a man comes in by himself it doesn't bother me...<as long as he doesn't pee all over the place>...but then i wouldn't want a woman to do that either.

there are times when i have gone into a public restroom for the express purposes of making adjustment to something i might need to at least partially undress to fix.  maybe it's old fashioned but at least in me it's deeply embedded, modestly won't allow me to undress in front of men without a darn good reason.  other people may have different sensibilities about this but i am not ready to have that sensibility imposed on me yet and it has nothing to do with my transness.  i guess that's one part of my thinking that lends me to the "just another woman" club.

So I suppose you think that a CD presenting as a woman in public does not have the right to use the restroom?  Or perhaps you think she ought to use the men's room and get beaten up, raped, and/or killed?  Surely, you must also agree with Barney Franks that ENDA should not include Transgender because preop TS women should not be in the ladies room.  Surely it is not too much to ask that they must also use the men's room and be assulted, raped, and/or killed.

I still advocate for a bright line rule that one's gender identity is whatever one says at the time, and access to gendered facilities should be granted on the basis of gender of presentation at the time.  Yes, preop TS women should have access even to women's showers so long as they present as women, including wearing a bathing suit and tucking it out of sight.

no glenda.  you again overreact.  you are trying to make it sound as if i am some hate filled bigot who wants to annialate the whole world.  you are completely wrong and you aren't being fair at all in charaterizing me in that way.  by doing that you avoid the substance of the argument and concentrate on the aruguer.  a good tactic if you're out to win...but if you are discussing and sharing it's not very helpful.

i think a cd should take responsibility for his own actions.  i think a cd should confine his crossdressing to places where facilities are available to him.  if he chooses to go to places where he might be beaten up or killed the perogative is his and the consequences are his as well.  no one should ever be beaten up or killed though.  my remedy is that he understand in advance that facilites are binary gendered in most instances and he is still a man regardless of how he dresses and in the vast majority of places his presence in the ladies' rooms will not be welcomed.  then it's up to him to decide if he wants to risk the men's room.  he has choices.

that doesn't mean i hate him or want to see him harmed.  that's something you have made up in your own mind to charaterize me as because you don't like what i'm saying and you don't like me because i say it.  that's really a shame.  that kind of behavior is what does drive people apart and stifles any chance for dialogue and conciliation.

as far as enda goes...that is a topic for politics.

i will say this, and again the truth is going to make some people mad.  i just hope you will stop and think about it from another perspective for just a minute.  i'm sure all transsexuals of either gender will hear and understand this.  crossdressing is a behavior...transsexulism is an identity.  they cannot be treated the same, they are not the same.  it's a mistake to try to make them the same.  it's just not realistic.

Quote from: pennyjane on July 18, 2008, 06:26:09 PM
i'm sure all transsexuals of either gender will hear and understand this.  crossdressing is a behavior...transsexulism is an identity.  they cannot be treated the same, they are not the same.  it's a mistake to try to make them the same.  it's just not realistic.

I said I was bowing out. I said I was bowing out.  I'm so glad some people have been given the divine revelation that allows them to speak for all transsexuals of either gender.  Firmly biting my tongue, I repeat the prayer my mother taught me, "Dear Lord, please keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand pressed tightly over my mouth."

i apologize lisbeth.  most transsexuals will hear and understand.  not necessarily agree.  and now...i bow out.

no, i take that apology back.  i have said nothing that i need to apologize for.  throughout this whole argument i have treated everyone with respect and kept a civil tongue in my mouth.  i cannot concieve of ANY TRANSSEXUAL who would not hear and understand what i said.  i have been treated like dirt by people who can't make a valid argument based on the facts so you resort to just villifying me.

that's mean and cruel and strictly the act of a bunch of bullies.  precisely why some people need seperate space.  so, yes...i'll go now and keep my butt in the same space with the girls in the future.  good luck to you all.

Quote from: pennyjane on July 18, 2008, 07:46:13 PM
i cannot concieve of ANY TRANSSEXUAL who would not hear and understand what i said. 

Yes, I do believe you can't conceive of it.  Your apparent inability to see a different point of view is why I have issues with what you said.

Okay, I am locking this topic for 24 hours.  Hopefully everyone will be a wee bit more relaxed tomorrow, and then we'll see if we unlock it.  Thank you.

tink :icon_chick:



Posted on: July 18, 2008, 08:15:45 PM

---

Almost twenty four hours have passed, so I'm unlocking this topic.  Please, please, please... let's keep the discussion civil.  If you are not familiar with the TOS/site rules, review them here. (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)  The moderators will be monitoring this thread so that it doesn't get all...ummm...how can I put it?...wild again!

Quote from: TOS/Site Rules2. Any attempts to stage protests, dispute the site policy, the TOS/rules, or actions of the staff; in the public areas of this site will not be tolerated and will result in your removal. If you have issues I suggest you contact susan@susans.org and not bring your issues into the public spaces on this website.

9. If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site.

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.

15. You may challenge the issue, but never people or groups.

Thanks a bunch! :)

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: pennyjane on July 18, 2008, 06:26:09 PM
no glenda.  you again overreact.  you are trying to make it sound as if i am some hate filled bigot who wants to annialate the whole world.  you are completely wrong and you aren't being fair at all in charaterizing me in that way.  by doing that you avoid the substance of the argument and concentrate on the aruguer.  a good tactic if you're out to win...but if you are discussing and sharing it's not very helpful.

i think a cd should take responsibility for his own actions.  i think a cd should confine his crossdressing to places where facilities are available to him.  if he chooses to go to places where he might be beaten up or killed the perogative is his and the consequences are his as well.  no one should ever be beaten up or killed though.  my remedy is that he understand in advance that facilites are binary gendered in most instances and he is still a man regardless of how he dresses and in the vast majority of places his presence in the ladies' rooms will not be welcomed.  then it's up to him to decide if he wants to risk the men's room.  he has choices.

that doesn't mean i hate him or want to see him harmed.  that's something you have made up in your own mind to charaterize me as because you don't like what i'm saying and you don't like me because i say it.  that's really a shame.  that kind of behavior is what does drive people apart and stifles any chance for dialogue and conciliation.

as far as enda goes...that is a topic for politics.

i will say this, and again the truth is going to make some people mad.  i just hope you will stop and think about it from another perspective for just a minute.  i'm sure all transsexuals of either gender will hear and understand this.  crossdressing is a behavior...transsexulism is an identity.  they cannot be treated the same, they are not the same.  it's a mistake to try to make them the same.  it's just not realistic.

I don't hate you at all.  In many ways, I used to be you.  But it was by examining the incompatibile results of that opinion that I came to put it it aside.  So, basically, I don't think for a moment that you think preop TS women should be excluded from using women's facilities.  My use of hyperbole and metaphor might not have been evident.  But I don't think it can be very comfortable for you to continue to hold onto this opinion, and not because of any external pressure from the likes of me.  But let me turn your words around, for the sake of argument:

i think a preop TS woman who doesn't pass should take responsibility for her own actions.  i think a preop TS woman who doesn't pass should confine her RLT to places where facilities are available to her.  if she chooses to go to places where she might be beaten up or killed the perogative is hers and the consequences are hers as well.

Do really think that way?  I doubt it.  Do you think society will really ever see preop TS women who don't pass and CDs differently?  I doubt it.  Can you think of any solution to our mutual problem than for society to adopt a bright line rule permitting CDs and preop TS alike to use the facility of presentation?  I doubt it.

*invades thread*

Ok, so the argument is that men should not invade a woman's area. However, in the first post it's already stated that FtMs where there. So I guess it's only certain men are allowed to invade.

Maybe the real issue here is their lack of understanding, their trying to identify with the women in the group. So in that case it should be, men who try to identify with women should not invade a woman's space.

Wouldn't it be great if this "invasion" could be seen as an opportunity to educate? With how little information is available to the public on TS you'd think this would be a great time to offer some up for people who want to learn. Maybe as they went to more meetings they'd find that they truly don't relate to you, but leave with a better knowledge of what you go through. Or maybe you'd find that you had more in common that you'd thought.

I think we can give and take a lot from people who're different than us. All we need to do is give each other a chance.

Not the restroom thing again!!!
I wonder how many times TG's or TS put themselves in
the shoes of others not like them.
Never seen so much naval gazing.

Oh, and condescension is not a very efficient rhetorical
deivice glenda. "I used to be like you". Shhhshh.

This whole thread has been the least informative ever,
nobody really listens to what others say...

Quote from: Osiris on July 19, 2008, 03:31:48 PM
I think we can give and take a lot from people who're different than us. All we need to do is give each other a chance.

That is a good idea.

Quote from: TOS/Site Rules
9. If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site.

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.

15. You may challenge the issue, but never people or groups.

i'm embarrassed about the tone and intent of this whole thread. and i don't see how it is not a violation of site rules 9, 10, and 15.

-Ell

Quote from: Osiris on July 19, 2008, 03:31:48 PM
*invades thread*

Ok, so the argument is that men should not invade a woman's area. However, in the first post it's already stated that FtMs where there. So I guess it's only certain men are allowed to invade.

Maybe the real issue here is their lack of understanding, their trying to identify with the women in the group. So in that case it should be, men who try to identify with women should not invade a woman's space.

Wouldn't it be great if this "invasion" could be seen as an opportunity to educate? With how little information is available to the public on TS you'd think this would be a great time to offer some up for people who want to learn. Maybe as they went to more meetings they'd find that they truly don't relate to you, but leave with a better knowledge of what you go through. Or maybe you'd find that you had more in common that you'd thought.

I think we can give and take a lot from people who're different than us. All we need to do is give each other a chance.

Thank you for invading, Osiris.  What I find disturbing about the whole scene as described, hopefully from your perspective, is that there are some people who do not view FtoMs as men.  They say that FtoMs are not an invasion of women's space because they are still women.  I imagine that if I were you, I would be very disturbed by that.

To return to the OP subject, approximately 15 years ago I came out as transgender in rural VA, and drove into the DC area to attend support group meetings. Probably the same group that Wing Walker went to a few years later. I felt very uncomfortable there, and for the most part, was given the cold shoulder by the professionally dressed women. In all likelihood, in my funky thrift store hippie clothes, I didn't look any better than the people she describes in her post (I can assure you I wasn't scratching my privates though). After a couple of meetings, I didn't return. It was clearly not my crowd.

Basically, I think we need to look past appearances, to the person inside. Possibly the person who CDs on weekends suffers as much pain about their gender as a transsexual woman or man, but circumstances aren't right for her to transition. Doesn't make her any less human.

Zythyra

Quote from: Zythyra on July 19, 2008, 11:31:11 PM
Basically, I think we need to look past appearances, to the person inside...

For what it's worth, my support group was generally for TSs only. And yet for the first few months, I showed up as an ordinary male.

And yet I was welcomed and made to feel perfectly comfortable from the very first session.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on July 19, 2008, 11:42:23 PM
For what it's worth, my support group was generally for TSs only. And yet for the first few months, I showed up as an ordinary male.

The one I attended was supposedly for all trans people, although it was mostly M2F TS or CDs. I don't think it would've helped if I'd shown up as male either... I really just didn't fit in w that crowd. Some of the women's shoes cost more than my entire outfit... or even my car LOL.

Z

Hi Kate. the trans support group we have here in Vancouver acccepts pretty well anyone, but rareley do we have TV's or CD's except for ocasinally we may have a CD but the rooms are mostly for F/M or M/F. The one CD that was showing up for meetings I was able to have some exchanges with, she decided that that our TS meetup is where she belongs. Actually I have also helped a couple of CD's on this group to cross the line. In that manner I would say that is crucial that we are able to cross-pollenate in this manner.

Cindy

  Since the original question was about men in women's places I have to ask this:

  If a boy grows up feeling female and joins a group such as this and ends up being straight is he still welcome here?

  After all, he is a man in a woman's area. (at least in the MtF areas)
 
  The reason I have to ask is this:

  1: I actually have found the transsexual community to experience many things I have experienced.
  2: The transsexual community seems to actually not look down their pious nose at others like many straight people do. (Most of them anyway)
  3: I just can't stand trying to fit in with straight people other than at work. (only because I have to)
  4: Most straight people appear too arogant to me (I may be wrong but that's how I see it)
  5: I do not want to be where I am not wanted nor to have my presence make any uncomfortable or angry.

  In conclusion, I only use the term straight in general references. I see the trans-men here as men regardless of pre-post op and the trans-women as women in like manner as the guys.

  Alicia

 

I am confused what you mean by straight and its relationship to feeling female?  Gender identity and sexual orientation are typically viewed as two different things.  For example, there are a great many biological males who transition to become lesbian women.  They have female gender identity but are sexually oriented towards other women, and therefore not straight as far as I understand the term.  If a biological male identifies as female but is sexually oriented toward men, then we say she is a straight woman.

But it is unclear if maybe you think feeling female means that a biological male is not straight.  I don't think that is what most other people mean when they talk about straight versus homosexual.  So please try and explain the situation more specifically.  Is it a biological male who feels female but likes to date women.  Is it a biological male who feels female for a while and then stops feeling female and starts feeling male?  Something else?

  I guess to clarify I felt female growing up and enjoyed all of the things girls do. I also hated being a boy in body.
  I pretty much married just to do what society expected and love my wife.
  Little did I know back then that my wife always felt like a boy growing up and hated having a girl's body. She loves me as much as I love her.
  We both never considered any forms of transition because of where we live and the time frame we grew up in back then. We never even knew what a transsexual was back then. I guess each of us just thought we were different.
  It does make for a strange relationship with her being more butch and me being more fem. Still in all, we just live as straight with no desire to transition.
  Since neither of us want  to transition I tend to think that makes us straight and not transsexual regardless of what we felt growing up or how we live now.
  If that is the case then me being a straight guy and posting on transsexual sites that MtF transsexuals post on is a man posting on a woman's place.
  Hence, if I identify as straight, would I still be welcome in a woman's place such as a MtF thread?
  Or, would I be an invader?
  Alicia


Posted on: March 16, 2025, 07:14:04 PM

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  Upon thinking on this please disregard the above info as that was merely my way of saying why I prefer this site. Not everyone that is straight is really straight I guess. I know I do not like straight sites as even though I consider myself straight certain things just never have made sense and I often feel out of place on them.
  The main point of the question would be this:
  Would a straight man be welcome on a MtF transsexual thread since it is a woman's thread?
  I hope that clarifies it. My wording is often poor.
  Alicia

Alicia,

In our circles "straight" and "gay" and "bi" usually form a sexual-orientation spectrum. "Cissexual" & "transsexual" & "androgyne (here) form a gender-sexual (as in male or female = "sex") spectrum.

I think the confusion between you and Glenda is that she is more used to that terminology and that you are maybe not so much.

I hope this will clarify instead of totally bogging down your exchanges.

Best,

Nichole

Nichole,
  Thank you so much for the explanation.
  I originally asked the question just to see if a straight man would be an invader here and not to bring confusion.
  For that I am sorry. I would never want to hurt anyone here or anger them.
  As for the other issues, in due time I will track down some answers.
  Once again, thank you.
  Alicia

"Straight" men are totally welcomed!! :laugh: What would we do without 'em??  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

N~

Nichole,
  Thank you so much. You are so kind and patient. I appreciate it more than you know.
Alicia

Quote from: Alicia Marie on July 25, 2008, 11:47:58 AM
Nichole,
  Thank you so much. You are so kind and patient. I appreciate it more than you know.
Alicia

Thanks for the "thank you," Alicia. TBH, you make it quite easy to be "kind and patient." :) You are just a very nice person yourself: understanding and truly show a willingness to learn and an acknowledgment that you may be unknowledgeable about some things.

Thank you for putting up with us and making the attempt to understand us. I know that must be difficult when we begin arguing amongst ourselves about things that prolly most people view as "numbering angels on pin-heads!" :laugh: :icon_hug:

Nichole

The originator's intent on this thread was to get feedback from folks here who have had experience in support groups, both in the real world and cyber world.  It was not meant to alienate our trans bros, but to the contrary. It is just as crucial to obtain feed back from them as well. It was only   meant to collect the opinions of those who have had experience with TS meet-up groups. Not to alienate anyone here on (Susan's) forums.  Its basis is the encroachment by those males who were born male and have no desire to make any changes beyond the superficial to call themselves "female."
   

Cindy

Alicia,

I think this site is for the transgendered and significant others thereof.  Is that right?  I'm not sure.  But, presuming that is the case, then we do not exclude anyone on the basis of sexual orientation.  Nor do we exclude men.  I think we might exclude someone who is not at all transgendered or a significant other of someone who is transgendered, even though they happen to be a straight man.

But It sounds to me like both you and wife might be androgynes, and therefore transgendered.  Plus, if that is the case, each of you is the significant other of a transgendered person.  So I think you and your spouse are each welcome on two counts.  That makes you doubly welcome I believe.

  I just want to thank you all so much.
  You all know how to make someone feel accepted and I appreciate it very much.
  It's a shame so many in society don't do the same for so many of you.
  Alicia