Invasion

[Wing Walker]

Why is it that heterosexual males will not leave women have their own space? 

A few years ago I belonged to a transsexual support group in the Washington, DC suburbs.  It was put together by transsexuals, for transsexuals, and for many years only transsexuals came to the meetings.  Then the males came in.

Crossdressers, males in female attire and makeup, and they invaded a space for transsexuals.  I knew who and what they were.  they were not hard to spot.  I sat with two friends, M to F, as I was, and we watched and listened as a discussion ensued.  They wanted to be welcome in our meetings!  These males, the ones who crossdress on the weekends and might be the ones to make life miserable on transsexuals on the job and elsewhere, they, and their male privilege, invaded our space.

I was really disgusted by the discussion but what made me ill was when a certain person, let's call her Leslie, rose to speak.  This crossdresser began to speak, telling us that it was necessary to include everyone!  He was wearing black tights, a gray wool dress, black top, boiled wool clogs, and as he spoke, he began to scratch his balls!  He scratched his balls while dressed as a woman, in a room full of transsexuals, M to F and F to M!

There are places for crossdressers to gather where they will be with others of like interest and desires.  There are places like the Tri-Ess (Society for the Second Self) that meet regularly.  Why do they come into places that are labeled as transsexual?

Some things are beyond my ability to understand.

Wing Walker

[pennyjane]

hi wing walker...on this we agree.  the crossdressers insist that they are our "sisters".  how can a man be anyone's sister?  to me that is nothing more then imposing their fantasy on my reality.

we know that the majority of crossdressers are transvestites, they get a sexual thrill out of wearing, handling or maybe just looking at female clothing.  funny how you never meet any of those.  most just say they are expressing a "feminine side" of themselves.  there are many, many ways a feminine side can be expressed without dressing up like a girl.

so until we all get it through our heads that we are very different creatures we will not come to understand and respect each other.  just recently i was chastized for calling a crossdresser a crossdresser.  why did that generate such offense?  i made no moral judgement about crossdressing.  i didn't say that crossdressers are really just a bunch of perverts or anything of the sort...i said..."ah hah!  you are a crossdresser, not a woman...you like to dress up as a woman but you are a man."  i was commenting on my realization that as this person seemed to have absolutely no clue as to how women feel is because he isn't one....he's a man.

it was done in the context of a conversation about men holding open doors for women.  this person didn't approach the subject from the point of view of a man, he did so from the point of view of a woman.  he went as far as to tell us how we do think and how we should think.  coming from a man i thought that should be noted, it was relevant to the conversation.

for this i was accused of bashing.  why is calling a crossdresser a crossdresser bashing while calling a transsexual a transsexual isn't?  aren't we all supposed to be equal?  are the crossdressers so ashamed of themselves that we can't publicly acknowledge them for what they are.....which isn't us?  that's what i call infantalizing, not giving the respect due one for what they are, not what they don't want to be.  i am a transsexual and i have no problem what-so-ever being called one...if you don't..i will.  i am in no way ashamed of myself, being what i am is an honor and a privelege.  by not refering to others as what they are, to me, would be showing disrespect...saying..."sure you should be ashamed of yourself."  i don't believe that way and i don't want to be precieved as such.  what people do sexually is not my call.  it's between us, our partners and our deity.

what we all need to do is understand and stop denying the reality of what we are.  transvestism is about fantasy, transsexualism is about reality.  a substantial, even fundamental difference.  a crossdresser can no more tell me how i feel or how i should feel then i can tell him how he should feel about being himself.  i don't think it should be out of bounds for us to make clear what's going on and who is who.

to me equality doesn't indicate sameness.  as a woman i don't have any trouble at all seeing myself as equal to any man at the same time i see myself as very different.  i'm not better then men and i'm not worse then men...but i am very different.  as with a vast majority of women, virtually every one i've ever met, i appreciate being treated as a woman.  that's something i think about all women, who are women, can identify with...it might be more difficult for men to see it.  so the point of my post was to show that men don't see things like women and i didn't appreciate him telling me how i should feel and if i don't feel like he says i should then i must be stupid or uneducated.....that i found personally offensive.

no comment was made on that.

[JENNIFER]

Please forgive me for being simplistic and maybe intolerant but is it possible that these men in costume use the term 'crossdresser' because they baulk at the word TRANSVESTITE?    They certainly appear to be quite dim if they believe that they can be among transsexuals as equals considering that they are playing at being women on the weekend in the same manner as reservist military folk but without the same honesty and dedication of those soldiers etc. whilst I and other transsexuals are putting ourselves through the ordeals of transition in order to achieve what is a correction of an error of the natural genetic engineering that occurs during a pregnancy.

I do not currently belong to any group for transsexuals offline but if I did, I would rather resent it if some ->-bleeped-<- came in and asked to speak with some kind of authority.  I am living as a woman, every minute of every day and suffer the abuse, pain, heartache that comes because I believe in myself whilst these imposters only play it it at their convenience, dressing up for a reason best known to themselves and probably for a sexual kick at the time of undressing back to normal life.  It is like having a journalist break in to the delivery room when your wife is giving birth just because he/she felt like it and because there is some satisfaction to be gained....it is plain and simple wrong. 

Maybe I have missed the point of Wing Walkers post, if that is the case I apologise but I feel it important to distingush between Males, females and yes, crossdressers.  I am M to F and consider myself female, F to M will likewise consider themselves males and for me, transvestites are just having some fun. A huge difference of mindset in my view 

[tekla]

I believe that in any private space (as opposed to publicly funded institutions) any group is entitled to limit its membership to whoever they want (the right of free association).  That hold true for meetings of transexuals who wish to exclude other people with gender issues.  It also includeds the right of feminist organizations and things like the Michigan Womyn's Festival and privately funded rape crisis centers to use the 'womyn born womyn' exclusion also.

Or are you saying that you have a right to exclude, but also have a right to never be excluded?

[Kate]

I don't think TSs should be assuming they understand the motivations of CDrs any more than CDrs should do the same for TSs.

Is the limited scope of the group made clearly known?

Do the people in question consider *themselves* to be CDrs? Or is that just what others label them as? Maybe these people DO think they're TSs?

~Kate~

[Sarah Louise]

We walk a fine line.  Every reason we give to not allow someone we don't classify as ts into a meeting, can be used by others to say we don't belong.

I do understand the want to have only TS people at a meeting of Ts's, but a genetic woman could use the same arguement to say that TS women (I am only addressing MtF here, the same arguements can be used for FtM) do not belong in their locker room.

Sarah L.

[lady amarant]

Many, many MtF TS people go through a period of thinking themselves "just crossdressers" before they finally get to an understanding and acceptance of themselves. Who are we to to decide where along hir journey any individual may be? By all means, if people are acting inappropriately and disrespectfully, confront them about it, but jeez, afford them the same consideration and respect as we would for ourselves, be it from feminist groups or religious institutions or whatever else.

~Simone.

[tekla]

Properly done good exclusion policies can take a single group of a million and make a million groups of one.  And, divide and conquer is a pretty old tactic, and it does work.

But if you can exclude people for 'not being trans enough' then why can't people exclude you for being trans in the first place?

[Kate]

But if you can exclude people for 'not being trans enough'...

Well, in support groups it can be helpful to limit attendance to those with similar goals. It's not a "better than" thing so much as just trying to stay focused on common issues which affect everyone, like coming out at work, getting hired post-transition, name changes, etc.

~Kate~

[JENNIFER]

Like I said earlier, maybe I misunderstand the premise of Wing Walker's post and I understand that some current crossdressers may eventually recognise something within themselves that is far deeper than expected.  I was trying to point out those that are clearly off the building site or other typically male domain to then go put a  dress on and play woman for an evening.....would you want them to 'muscle in' upon a meeting or gathering that you thought was for you and your fellow transitioners or post-op's engaging with each other over wine and nibbles and a good jolly old chat?  

[pennyjane]

kate.  the individual i was refering to self-identifies in his profile as a crossdresser.  i, too, think we have to be very careful about identifying people for them.  i am inclined to hold true the self-identification until such time as i have reason to believe otherwise.  by default, we are what we say we are.

simone.  ditto.  i don't think we can decide for anyone else, we have to take their word for it.

i also think we shouldn't infantilize.  we shouldn't say that what certain people are should be unmentionable once they do self-identify.  if one is ashamed of being what he is, he should be encouraged to get some help, learn to respect himself for what he is or try to change.  it really is all about respect and personal dignity.  we ts's shouldn't hold cd's as worthy of any less respect then ourselves, but by the same token it shouldn't be made off limits to discuss the difference without everyone taking offense.  i think it is very telling that we seem to have to handle the cd's with kid gloves.  it's bashing them to look at them crosseyed.  that attitude i find condescending and sending exactly the wrong signal, it validates the negative attitude of the majority.  let's just be honest about things.....that's showing real respect.

[Wing Walker]

We walk a fine line.  Every reason we give to not allow someone we don't classify as ts into a meeting, can be used by others to say we don't belong.

I do understand the want to have only TS people at a meeting of Ts's, but a genetic woman could use the same arguement to say that TS women (I am only addressing MtF here, the same arguements can be used for FtM) do not belong in their locker room.

Sarah L.

I have yet to attend a meeting of transsexuals in which we disrobed as a community and showered together.

Wing Walker

[NicholeW.]

Given the original premise, I thought for just a second I was at the Michigan Women's Music Festival or in a radical feminist lecture hall.

But, seeing all these other TSes in here I just realized that I couldn't be in either of those places, because no TSes would be allowed in them, no matter your credentials for being a woman.

If this argument is meant to be directed at an inclusionary forum, then I would imagine a petition should be sent along to Susan requesting that she change her site to something that it currently is not.

There are a number of sites that do not allow non-TS to enter them. If anyone is feeling misused enough perhaps they would find those more to their liking.

The "Just For Us" sections here are set-up to be exactly what at least three of you have argued for: spaces where people androgyne, cd, ftm, mtf if they have entered those groups are not allowed to go unless they are group members.

A huge number of people "out there" are unwilling to give any of us any validity for being "women." For them we will always be men. I find it ironic in the extreme that people who have and do live in that sort of world are willing to try to exclude others as much as possible from their chats that are on a very public board.

And the expectation from me is that it takes someone who is an adult, not an infant, to understand that.

This entire matter was taken up the other night. And PJ, since you have this wish to discuss it in public, your posts were not removed for your disagreement with tekla. They were removed because you repeatedly made personal attacks and disparagements that were only tangentially based on them identifying as a cross-dresser. 

So yes, I agree: let's be honest about things and show "real respect" while we are at it.

Nichole

[Wing Walker]

Many, many MtF TS people go through a period of thinking themselves "just crossdressers" before they finally get to an understanding and acceptance of themselves. Who are we to to decide where along hir journey any individual may be? By all means, if people are acting inappropriately and disrespectfully, confront them about it, but jeez, afford them the same consideration and respect as we would for ourselves, be it from feminist groups or religious institutions or whatever else.

~Simone.

I have been in public and private meetings with transsexuals who had yet to start HRT and they were doing the best that they could to behave as in their proper gender.  There was no talk of things like dates, breaking a leg to light someone's smoke, or what they did when they last dated a woman who thought they were really a man.

Power never conceded anything without a demand and I personally demand that males leave us alone.  I work at a women's shelter and there is a large sign in the door telling men that they are not to go inside yet they try.  I have not become aware if a woman doing that at a men's shelter.  I stand at the top of the stairs at the entrance to confront them if necessary.

Wing Walker
Talk the Talk, Walk the Walk

[NicholeW.]

Wing Walker, you can also refer yourself to my last post.

This Forum is open. There are also biological females and males who post here. You want an exclusive place, they abound on the internet, but this isn't one of them.

N~

[lady amarant]

i think it is very telling that we seem to have to handle the cd's with kid gloves. it's bashing them to look at them crosseyed.  that attitude i find condescending and sending exactly the wrong signal, it validates the negative attitude of the majority.  let's just be honest about things.....that's showing real respect.

I hear what you are saying honey, but you know, I think we need to be very careful that we end up focussing so much on what makes us different, that we never stop to look at where we HAVE to stand together. There was a news byte on here just a few minutes back, the source to which I posted a response. It won't be past moderation yet, so I include it here:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,39175.0.html

Hi Jim,

You have a point. I'm transsexual, MtF. That is a part of my identity and has little if anything to do with my sexuality. My sexuality swims around somewhere in-between VERY weakly kinda-I-don't-know-maybe-both to entirely, completely asexual. Then again, that probably has a fair bit more to do with baggage than with sexuality.

So you are right, we don't have much in common. Except that we can both get fired by some ignorant arse (yeah, please note the funny spelling - I'm South African )for no other reason than that we are different from him. Except that some idiot in a pick-up can get a few buddies together so they can kill either of us over a couple of beers. Except that most places of worship make no welcome, even though we hurt nobody and nothing. Except that, in most places around the world, let alone the US, we are not free to make a covenant to the person we love.

What I'm trying to get at is simple. Some fights are bigger than just one group. Till we are ALL treated fairly, and justly, and without bigotry and hatred, none of our liberties are truly safe.

Ask yourself this honey: If you can stand by while another group is stepped on and spat on, or worse yet, turn around and oppress and discriminate in the same way that you have experienced, do you deserve the liberties you have?

We're minorities, we have common foes and common concerns. And yeah, what you and Wing Walker refer to is a support group rather than a political rally, so maybe a straight CD doesn't have a place there, in fact, he probably doesn't. But at the same time, there are women who say the same thing about us. There are ways to handle people who 'do not belong'. Address issues they do not understand, they do not identify with, and they will most likely feel quite out of place, if not downright uncomfortable. Talk about experiences unique to transsexuals, and they will most likely be completely at odds. And if they don't react with discomfort and dumbfoundedness, then maybe they SHOULD be there.

Hehehe, once you start talking about HRT-induced hot flushes or how much one is looking forward to having one's gonads removed, you separate the straight male from the T pretty quick, in my experience. 

~Simone.


Posted on: 16 July 2008, 16:07:18

I have been in public and private meetings with transsexuals who had yet to start HRT and they were doing the best that they could to behave as in their proper gender.  There was no talk of things like dates, breaking a leg to light someone's smoke, or what they did when they last dated a woman who thought they were really a man.

Power never conceded anything without a demand and I personally demand that males leave us alone.  I work at a women's shelter and there is a large sign in the door telling men that they are not to go inside yet they try.  I have not become aware if a woman doing that at a men's shelter.  I stand at the top of the stairs at the entrance to confront them if necessary.

I agree hon. But like I said in one of my previous posts - if they act inappropriately or disrespectfully, take them to task, or kick them out. We talk alot about male privilege and power here, and yeah, men take, demand, force. But at a support meeting for trans-people, the trans-people have the power. By banning them all you do is transferring your power to them, because you are almost kinda conceding that they matter to the group. They are guests, until they prove themselves to be family, and if they are unwilling to act as such, they are welcome to leave.

~Simone.

[Wing Walker]

Properly done good exclusion policies can take a single group of a million and make a million groups of one.  And, divide and conquer is a pretty old tactic, and it does work.

But if you can exclude people for 'not being trans enough' then why can't people exclude you for being trans in the first place?

Oh, but transsexuals are excluded for being transsexual in the first place.  Many transsexuals cannot get a job, are homeless, die young by their own hand; they are excluded by their families and friends and marginalized by  the societies in which they live.

Wing Walker

[cindybc]

Hi Tekla. I do not like getting into aggressive behaviours from anyone not even from those I am close to so an argument is the last thing I seek. You wish to learn about the life of a transsexual, I will not put it all out here in print but just check back on some older posts I have here in one thread or another and please read. I would sooner someone blew my head off with a double barrel 12 gauge shot gun then to live through that again. Have you ever been raped?

Ya'll have a wonderful day.

Cindy 

[Nero]

Must say this thread is entertaining.

Could we please not get all personal here? Everyone is welcome here no matter their flavor.

[cindybc]

Hi Nero hon, yes it certainly was. Like watching a ping pong game. Oh dash burn it, One of them lost the ball 

Cindy