QuoteAnonymous: I just see it as the same way they used to include "homosexuality" DSM-IV. Gender dysphoria shouldn't be on there either. It's an identity thing, not a disorder. =/
Elwood: I like it being in there. You want to know why? :P
Anonymous: I can guess.
Elwood: Do. I'm curious. xD
Anonymous: Because you wouldn't get treatment otherwise.
Elwood: Bingo. It gives me a "legitimate" reason to transition. The doctors can't say no if I'm diagnosed.
A short part of a chat I had.
How do you feel about our gender identities being called a disorder?
Is there another way to say disorder? It gives me the thoughts like it is "no normal" when i think about it closely, dis order so not orderly or not normally. Which then tells me "but we are normal, just with a disorder?"
It makes me feel weird. But i shouldn't or should i?
There is a rather large, on the ground movement in the community not to fight about who is writing the next DSM but to get it out in total. Matter of fact, the banners at the TransMarch in SF this year were from that group.
They view TG in all its forms as a normal human condition and not a problem to be 'solved.' Because its a normal (in that it occurs in a regular pattern throughout the population) there are many ways to accept and deal with it, where if its a medical issue the only way to deal with it is medical.
I have to agree with the medical inclusion, obviously, at least for transsexuals because we simply need those.
The "disorder" part is the same "disorder" that gays, lesbians, polyamorous, African_Americans, women, people who derive from East Asian, Middle Eastern, African (who are non-white,) Jews, Muslims, etc, etc face in USA: a pattern of harrassment, dismissal and demeaning from the majority face. The difficulties that ensue from that do need attention.
That would place the pathology for transsexuals into a medical frame and for other transgendered people it would remove pathology of any kind. Go read the DSM on Transvestic Fetishism! I mean the language is simply heartless!
Virulent hatred should be the "disordered" category. The psychic assistance & pathology, if there are to be some, needs to be geared toward them.
Nichole
imo, i have a medical CONDITION, that does not allow me to fully represent as completely female if i was to have a full body exam. so, yeah i don't like disorder either, as like most of us, i'm just as normal as the next girl or guy for the guys, but come on! seriously normal is so completely overrated. i don't want to be like everybody else, i want to be ME.
Warrior Princess Mickie
IMHO, definitely not. I think it's just a natural part of human variation. In a world where two socially defined sexes is the norm, it's natural that out of 6 billion people there will be those that transcend those social boundaries.
It just seems so dangerous to pathologize natural human variation. It gets us into the situation we have now, with needing permission from our "betters" to access medical care. Yuck.
Lia
Quote from: Kiera on July 16, 2008, 02:07:48 PM
LOL who says we 'ave "to ask permission"?
Well, I mean, we can perceive it however we wish to, but the truth is (at least in America) that you can't access treatment (hormones, surgeries) without a psychiatrist's letter. That one cannot make the decision for oneself, that one needs an "expert" opinion, to me implies needing the permission of the psychiatric community.
Lia
If not permission, at least pay them first, they are gatekeepers on a toll road after all.
If the issues gets messy enough, with several different points of view that can not find a middle ground I would not put it past the DSM folks to just kick it to the curb. The easy way out is often a very attractive solution in any bureaucratic administration, which is what the DSM is.
Never underestimate what a few organized, if crazy, people can do.
If not permission, at least pay them first, they are gatekeepers on a toll road after all.
And even for those that's not especially true of it certainly appears to be true to the majority of transitioners. That kinda makes it true. And maybe the second-biggest reason that I think it should be, as should most of the "sexual & fetish disorders" in DSM, totally cut-out.
The first biggest reason? Transsexuals do not access therapeutic care for any kind of therapy at all; most just are trying to get those letters and will say & do wahtever they think will do that. As a practitioner I find that both of the matters to be a net harm for the profession and certainly for the patient whose welfare is supposed to be the first concern of the practitioner.
Let's go to D.C. for the work-group and plenary sessions. :)
Nichole
Yeah a lot of it seems like a lot of legal CYA stuff. The medical doctors are not at fault if they have some sort of letter from someone else saying its OK.
Dropping it would also eliminate a lot of the funding that the people you don't like get to do the research you don't agree with.
Or the docs could do what Suporn, I think it is, does; has his own shrink on staff to do the evaluation. Bet that cuts down on the winnowed TSes! :laugh:
N~
Well Suporn does not have to be subject to the American Lawsuit Industry either, nor AMA guidelines. I'm sure that helps too.
Naturement Quote from: Shakespeare... to start, let's kill all the lawyers.
Sorry, Tasha, can you change careers just now? :laugh:
N~
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers". Henry VI - (Act IV, Scene II).
The remark in context was not meant to bring any sanity by eliminating them, but rather by eliminating the guardians of free and independent thinking as a prelude to a revolution.
So that the line in context reads:
JACK CADE.
I thank you, good people:- there shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score; and I will apparel them all in one livery, that they may agree like brothers, and worship me their lord.
DICK.
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
tekla, who shudders to think she is defending lawyers, but so be it. I sure would rather have the American tort law system then not have it.
The only reason I liked GID in the DVM was for all the reasons said above. You need the meds and anything else you can get with your insurance. You also need to get the meds. As far as being Gay, you don't need a doctor to like the same gender and you don't need meds or surgery for that either. I don't like it in there, but to get my meds when I was in transition, I needed it in there. As far as the word "normal" goes. I think that normal means average, well someone has to be on one side or the other on that curve.
Would doctors be able to legally (and ethically) prescribe hormones to TSs without a medical diagnosis justifying it?
What about surgeons? COULD they perform SRS without a medical diagnosis justifying it?
~Kate~
The ICD-10 has a medical diagnosis.
BTW, Kat, I do know why the line is in the play and said by an idiot to boot. But thanks for the note.
Nichole
Hey I think the popularity of old Willie the Bard is that a lot of people in those plays are pretty dumb - or at least, very human. Romeo and Juliet were not the sharpest tacks in the box either, nor were either Hamlet or Macbeth who had they exchanged places would not have any problems for one acted when they should not have the other did not act when he should have.
But keeping it on the DSM and putting all with some form of it under the stigma of 'a mental problem' for the sake of funding for a few is not the best solution either.
I don't believe it is a mental disorder and don't think that it being classified as such is helping us any. If it were considered a physiological condition instead, one could still be eligible for insurance for treatment.
IMO, modern society has the more severe illness, non-willingness to see or accept gender diversity. ::) We've always been here, throughout history. I wish they'd get over their rigid, pathological need to make everything fit into narrow binary categories. Is there some treatment for that?? >:D
Zythyra
Yeah, revolution.
Tasha is going to be one of the good lawyers. There has to be at least one right?
Three actually. There's one in Arkansas as soon as Tasha passes the bar. There's one in Nashville who was absolutely and astonishingly good and decent when I found him in the yellow pages, of all things. And I have a really dear friend in LA who is one as well, although opinion about her might be divided as she also has some rather firm stances on a lot of things. :)
Nichole
Oh I'm kidding, I know a lot of them, mine included. Though no entertainment lawyers, I've never known a good one of those.
Disorder? Pure chaos!
Do we need a medical diagnosis to have access to SRS? Does a woman need a medical diagnosis to get breast implants or her tubes tied or anything else like that? So no.
Do we need a medical diagnosis to get HRT? Sure. But it does not have to be a psychiatric diagnosis. A physical diagnosis will do just fine.
In short, I think we can dispense with the classification of GID as a mental disorder. Would we benefit from doing so? I think so. Gays got homosexuality out of the DSM before they started making serious strides in gaining liberty by first having homosexuality be perceived as a valid lifestyle. I think we must do the same for gender identity if the whole T spectrum is to obtain meaningful liberty. And clinging to the assertion that we just transition and then have our freedom as members of the new sex is clinging to a pipe dream in my opinion. Getting legal recognition as the new gender for all purposes (e.g., marriage) is problematic. And those who can't pass 100% will never be able to obtain the alleged freedom, anyway. We just have to eliminate the taboo, which necessarily entails shedding the mental disorder stigma.
Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 16, 2008, 08:16:09 PM
And clinging to the assertion that we just transition and then have our freedom as members of the new sex is clinging to a pipe dream in my opinion. Getting legal recognition as the new gender for all purposes (e.g., marriage) is problematic.
Pipe dream? Geez, I hope not.
I'll be legally female soon, at least according to my Birth Certificate, Driver's License and Social Security. I'll then be able to (re)marry as any other woman could. I don't see any limitations?
I don't much like having a "disorder," but ya know... I can't argue that the process, as insulting and messed up as it is, HAS allowed me an escape from all this.
~Kate~
Well here Ii am answering to a thread that I have no business answering because I am not that well informed as to the subject. Maybe I should be but I am busy with me and I have needs that I have to be addressed.
I do not like the term Gender Identity Disorder or Gender Identity Disphoria. Because both say the same thing. The "normal" people think that we are strange or weird. But how said that they were "normal". Maybe we are the ones that are normal and all of them are strange and weird.
But the squeakiest wheel gets the oil.
It is all a CYA thing.
Love,
Janet
Quote from: Kate on July 16, 2008, 03:38:38 PM
Would doctors be able to legally (and ethically) prescribe hormones to TSs without a medical diagnosis justifying it?
It depends on whether the drugs are only available on prescription in the first place. In Thailand, they're OTC (over the counter), which seems to work out fine as far as I can tell. Of course, that would only benefit MTFs, since I doubt that there's a country on Earth that would allow testosterone to be sold OTC.
Lia
Gender identity "disorder" is a very controversial diagnosis amongst some mental health professionals and transsexual peeps and quite honestly it does me more harm than good. I'm not "ill", I'm not "disordered", I'm not mentally incapacitated. I'm simply a woman trying to lead a normal life away from all the bigotry and discrimination that exists solely because I was born with a penis.
Quote from: tekla on July 16, 2008, 11:48:41 AM
There is a rather large, on the ground movement in the community not to fight about who is writing the next DSM but to get it out in total. Matter of fact, the banners at the TransMarch in SF this year were from that group.
They view TG in all its forms as a normal human condition and not a problem to be 'solved.' Because its a normal (in that it occurs in a regular pattern throughout the population) there are many ways to accept and deal with it, where if its a medical issue the only way to deal with it is medical.
The medical portion is transition. If it isn't considered a medical condition, transition would be no different than any other "glamorous" plastic surgery. Hormones would not be given out because any hormone treatment requires a valid medical reason.
I'd rather be called sick and given hormones than called well and given nothing.
But the crux is that we do not need a Psychiatric diagnosis. It can be a medical diagnosis of a physical malady. So we get it out of the DSM and shed the mental patient stigma, while still getting treatment for "hypogonadism" or whatever diagnosis code your endo wants to use. And if you want therapy, you can still get it. The diagnosis code can be "stress," which is what they use now for people having stress about being gay.
I think the best reason for medical professionals to be involved is because then people who aren't transsexuals and are just kids driven by sexual fantasies won't be wrongly diagnosed. I've seen a number of transmen that were just women with penis envy. And I've heard about transwomen who really just are guys who want to express their femininity more.
((I am NOT saying ALL transpeople are like this. I am saying SOME people THINK they are trans but it turns out that they can't really make the commitment to a medical transition. They may be transgendered, but they can't handle being a transsexual for one reason or another. SOME people. And the medical community works together to make sure these people aren't wrongly given hormones/surgery when they aren't ready.))
Yes, these precautions irritate me. I have to wait longer because I'm 18 and still living with my parents. The doctors don't think I'm mature enough to make the decision because I don't live on my own (I don't live on my own because I'm in school and it's expensive... no job I could get right now would pay for both school and the costs of living). They don't think I'm ready because I haven't said, "Gimme hormones now." So yes, the medical community can slow things down in a negative way. But I just remember how many boneheads they're saving from making a life-changing decision that they don't need.
No, heteroSOC is the disorder, ->-bleeped-<- is the cure ... :)
Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 17, 2008, 10:35:08 AMBut the crux is that we do not need a Psychiatric diagnosis. It can be a medical diagnosis of a physical malady. So we get it out of the DSM and shed the mental patient stigma, while still getting treatment for "hypogonadism" or whatever diagnosis code your endo wants to use. And if you want therapy, you can still get it. The diagnosis code can be "stress," which is what they use now for people having stress about being gay.
Problem with that is that there are no visible physical symptoms of the disorder. They're all psychological symptoms.
My hormone levels are normal on all areas so endo can't diagnose me. And yet I'm still transgendered. I'd say being transgendered is very much a psychological condition. Not to say there aren't any other possible causes, but the symptoms are mostly psychological. I don't look a day manlier being transgendered. I am 100% female in my body.
Posted on: July 17, 2008, 08:37:11 AM
Quote from: androgynetg on July 17, 2008, 10:37:04 AMNo, heteroSOC is the disorder, ->-bleeped-<- is the cure ... :)
I'm not going to lie to myself. A condition in my brain is more fallible than a condition in my body. Meaning, if this were ANY other condition, we'd be changing my brain, NOT my body.
Your lack of male genetalia is a physical symptom. You're not nuts. <There is a pun in there somewhere, I'm sure.>
Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 17, 2008, 10:39:51 AMYour lack of male genetalia is a physical symptom. Your not nuts. <There is a pun in there somewhere, I'm sure.>
I don't know. I feel like you guys have got it kind of backwards. But maybe I'm just used to the traditional way of doing things... :icon_shrug_no:
Ah, cute pun. ;D
Fibromyalga used to be just a set of symptoms. It was hard to find anything physically wrong with the patent, so they had to setup the rules of the symptoms. Years later it became a recognized illness.
Transsexualism and Transgendered are a set of symptoms now, maybe soon it will be a recognized.
Janet
Quote from: Valentina on December 15, 1999, 12:33:04 PM
Gender identity "disorder" is a very controversial diagnosis amongst some mental health professionals and transsexual peeps and quite honestly it does me more harm than good...
Does it?
It seems the only people who notice it are a few groups of Professional Haters, and TSs themselves. The fact that I supposedly have a "disorder" hasn't impacted my life in any negative way.
In the end, it's allowed my doctor and surgeon-to-be to provide me with the services I so desperately need. The people who matter - the doctors and surgeons - "get it," they know why it's listed that way, and recognize it as a necessary evil for now to justify what they offer us.
I just keep thinking that regardless of how insulting it all is, the fact remains that the existing system has allowed me to transition and just live my life normally. There's no "stigma" from that diagnosis in Daily Life, only within the Hate Groups. All I ever wanted to do was just transition and vanish back into the woodwork as an ordinary female, and this system... insulting as it may be... gave that miracle to me.
~Kate~
Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on July 17, 2008, 11:33:07 AM
and yet, the cure for nose hair remains elusive......
;)
This from an Ann Landers column! :laugh:
QuoteThere is no cure and both aging women and men have the problem. You can pluck it or you can get one of those Braun Nose-hair shavers, or you can walk around with a moustache growing outcher nose. All up to the individual.
The nose-hair clipper seems like a sane way to do it, after all, it's not like you carry the darned thing around in your purse and pull it out at Sardi's or on the street. For goodness's sakes! Use it in the bathroom and be done it.
Sensible & Aging
Our genders themselves are NOT disordered, and labelling them so is contradictory to the indicated treatment (fixing our sex, not our genders). In my opinion, what we need is a diagnosis that recognises that it's the mismatch between our gender identities (or body image) and our anatomical sex that causes the dysphoria. On the one hand, a valid medical label is necessary for people who are trying to access treatment on medical insurance or social healthcare, on the other we don't want to be rubber stamped with an inappropriate disorder label for life.
We need something like 'gender identity vs anatomical sex mismatch disorder' but with a catchier title :P
That way, we have something wrong with us -> seek treatment for a recognised condition -> have our feelings recognised -> get treated -> are CURED of the aforementioned condition!
I don't think this way of thinking would cause problems for any of us.
Medical: "Brain/Body Inter-sex Syndrome"
I prefer that our genders be whatever we say our genders are. So a person with a penis should be able to say, "I am a woman," and be legally recognized as such. Then the woman can go to a doctor and say, "Look. I have a penis. And I don't have ovaries, and I'm not happy about that." And the doctor can reply, "My sympathies, ma'am. We'll fix you right up." Or maybe the woman does not mind having a penis. Why should she have to have it surgically modified to be legally recognized as a woman? I just think we have a lot of work to do, and getting GID out of the DSM is an essential step in the right direction.
My mind and emotions have always rejected my body as it was naturally formed. I have no problem considering something like this a "disorder" because it just isn't natural to be born with a psyche that doesn't match up with you physical gender. IMO calling that "natural" is the same as claiming that it's natural for someone to be born with a stomach that rejects food.
But why is it necessarily a mental disorder instead of a physical malady. I mean, if one has has a male body and female mind, why is it necessarily the case that there is something wrong with the mind? I say there is nothing wrong with the mind. It is the body that needs to be corrected. It is the body that IS corrected. And shouldn't a treatment that is purley aimed at changing the body be administered for a physical malady?
That is not to say that there can not also be mental problems on top of the gender disphoria. But the gender identity is not a disorder. And the predisposition to presume that a person with a male body OUGHT TO develop a male gender identity is base prejudice. I think we should expect to have complete gender freedom.
I may be new at this, but way I see it, there is no normal, just what society calls normal or the majority rules scenario.
But as for disorder. Disorder if I remember can be an unnatural problem with mind or body. Technically you could say there is no problem with the mind 'or' body with a transgendered person. Just a mismatch of the mind 'and' body 'together' but it is not an un-natural occurrence. Your brain has no defect, your body has no defect.
So yeh it could fit losely under disorder (but only of the mind and body entirely) unfortunantly, people tend to think if something is wrong must be wrong with a certain part rather than the entirety.
You have phyciatrists, you have physicians, but how many you see specializing in both or taking into the consideration the big picture? We are not disordered really, just unique. But if we have to have a diagnoses for being different it should be a mental/body missmatch diagnoses not a mental 'or' physical diagnoses
(Hope I made some sense, probably not lol)
I think it's considered psychological as a disorder because there are no physical symptoms. Everything we feel about being trans takes place in our brain.
A disorder is a psychological ailment that causes "disorder" in one's life. GID is considered a disorder because we cannot get normal jobs, be ourselves, be content without treatment or at least acknowledgment of our true genders.
Odd, I know people who transitioned as a vice president of Bank of America and went on to found their own company. I know a girl who when she was young and "just a crossdresser" wrote a critical bit of code that made computer games far more playable and still cashes the checks for that bit of insight, and now she has transitioned and is a top independent consultant and no one cares if she is she, or might have been a he, or whatever, all they care about is.... 'When can you get it back on-line?" I have an FtM as my apprentice in IATSE and he is doing very well indeed - and I do ride him hard and put him up wet, because nothing less then being perfect is good enough for me, and it better never be good enough for him either. That is how he is going to make it.
I know people who have transitioned who have become medical types, lawyer types, still kept their university teaching job types. And on and on.
Its about not obsessing, and being able to compartmentalize that makes the difference.
BEFORE transition. Besides, you can "get a job" and "be successful" but that doesn't mean you're happy or a functioning individual of society. The fact that you all spend so many hours on this forum tells me you have at least two disorders; an addiction to the internet (it actually has a name, which I will look up if I must) and gender identity disorder. Transitioning does not make GID go away. A person will still be overly sensitive to themselves and set high expectations for themselves quite often. Many people with GID are not satisfied no matter how many surgeries they've had. There are also many people with GID who are very happy even before transition; this does not make them GID. They still refuse to be addressed as society normally would, thus, they do not fit into the typical acts of things. Because of this, they will always struggle in their "non conformist" ways. Then they say, "I'm not disordered! SOCIETY is disorder!"
Check and mate. End of story. Bada-Bing. That's a wrap.
Post-transition is also very different than pre-transition, and I was talking about pre-transition.
I don't want to argue, but I do what I know, and who I know. (and do you know anything that was not written by screenwriters for some other person to say, it's like you don't look like a Jersey Wise Guy or anything, so don't quote them). I'm just saying that all persons with GID do not let it rule them, or influence every aspect of their life - that's obsessive - but has a life, it changed and they changed with it.
Sure I have GID, though not to the degree that others here seem to have it, or I found a way around it, or I found a middle place where its mostly OK. I did my own RLT for a year (an actual calendar year, I'm nothing if not exact) and I liked it, but not enough to go further, which is the real reason for the RLT. Had I liked what I was, and were it got me, I'm pretty sure I could have walked out of my first phych consultation with a script. But long before I ever put any chemical in my body I wanted to be sure. So I checked it out. It was not me.
Not that it stopped me from cross gender behavior, it made me more open to including all of that in my day to day life. Not one, or the other, but I'm just sort of both, and neither at the same time. So that's me. And finding out who you are is priceless information.
Transitioning does not make GID go away.
Not according to a lot of people on here. Given the cure, the GID goes away.
Because of this, they will always struggle in their "non conformist" ways.
Real non-conforming people live for this, they do not struggle with it. In fact, most real non-conforming types live in fear that they might just turn out to be like everyone else.
I'm on the net as a function of my work, I have lots of time at times, other times I'm gone for days and days. But I do live in a wired culture, with wireless almost everywhere I go. so its not that hard to watch a single site, in fact, I watch several. Hell my Apple lets me know when something is responded to. And I'm just waiting for the show, and its hours away.
Don't you tell me what I can and cannot say, and what I look like has got nothing to do with it.
I had never said that people with GID "let" it rule them, but it does. That's what makes it a disorder. If GID didn't rule our lives, we'd deal with it and not transition. We'd get over it, live lives as the genders we're not, because GID isn't powerful enough to change our bodies. Once it is powerful enough to influence us to commit acts of downright self mutilation, it looks very much like a disorder-- because it is one. You want to argue about that? I'm not the person to talk to. Talk to a medical professional. Or just look it up in the bloody DSM. It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal. You want to deny it? Take it up with the people who spent years writing it and revising it. That isn't my argument, but I certainly do agree with it.
You do want to argue, and that's why you've chosen to make snide comments and talk to me like I'm some dimwitted buffoon.
Transitioning does not make GID go away. That's what you don't understand. My body was born female, and I will never be able to change that. I can become male, but the fact that I had to do that and sustain that means I have a consistent flow of GID. If GID stopped, I'd want to be a girl. The GID does not go away, and there is no "cure" to being transgendered. What goes away are the harmful and painful symptoms.
There are not any real non-conformists. They're all sheep who feel like there are rules for themselves and rules for everyone else. Everyone thinks they're the exception. They never are.
Putting a band-aid over a wound isn't what makes that wound heal. If a transgendered person stopped being transgendered when they transitioned, they'd want to untransition. Being transgendered means your gender does not match your original sex.
You know Eltwood, everyone on here seemed to been sharing opinions and ideas respectfully till your last post. What was up with that?
tekla has a really discreet yet direct way of talking down to me. And no one seems to notice.
Of course. Transition does make the symptoms go away, but not the cause of the symptoms. It still exists. I really shouldn't be bothering trying to explain it to people, because most people don't know the difference between a symptom and a condition. The fact is, the symptoms are treated, but the condition still exists.
A cure implies that the condition is gone. For instance, you cannot cure the common cold. You can, however, treat its symptoms. Eventually your body flushes the cold virus out of its system. Since GID is a psychological condition, it cannot be flushed out or cured. It's symptoms, however, can be suppressed. Your main point? Yes, you wouldn't care that you still had GID if transition had eliminated the symptoms. But this isn't about caring. My point is that GID never goes away, and transition is just a permanent band-aid.
A transgendered person believes that they are no longer transgendered. They tell themselves this to make themselves feel better. "I'm the right sex now, so I'm cisgendered." If a transgendered person calls themselves cisgendered, they are being misleading. It is okay to lie and to be stealth, but at least one should be aware of their own lying. Also, I don't believe someone can both have trans pride and then deny that they are trans. Even if by vernacular terms the person is no longer transgendered, they're still trans because they're undeniably a transsexual.
Being happy with your gender is not being free of GID. GID does not come merely in the form of ->-bleeped-<-. For instance, a woman who feels her breasts much be much larger has a gender identity disorder-- a variation of it. The term can be used either generally or specifically, but to get back to my point, eliminating the symptoms of a condition does not mean that condition is gone.
I'll keep an eye out and give myself a chance to try to understand tekla. I don't like to be enemies with someone who knows where I go to school.
Transgender and GID are not same thing. GID (Gender Identity Disorder) as in you identify as the oposit gender than your body says it is. If your mind is female, and your happy with your body matching your gender, then technically you don't have an identity problem anymore.
Yes because your body is still XX or XY chromosomes some might still consider you transgender depends on if peopel are looking at chromosomes or physical features. But if you feel your happy with how you body expresses your gender, it's not an identity issue anymore.
Quote from: Elwood on July 27, 2008, 02:13:13 PM
My point is that GID never goes away, and transition is just a permanent band-aid.
A really interesting point! Yes, I've often mentioned that my *real* problem is that I wasn't born female. And I STILL don't know if this "permanent bandaid" will be enough. But I am committed to finding out.
On the other hand, if I just look at things from a very practical point of view... before transitioning, I was totally obsessed with my sex and gender 24/7, every day of my life. It warped my daily life, appending
"yea, but you're not a girl..." to *anything I thought or did. THAT, to me, is a "disorder."
After transition, that just doesn't happen anymore. Oh sure, I'm still a bit focused on things with SRS coming up and all, but overall I don't think about what sex I am (or aren't) anymore. So it seems fair to say I "cured" my disorder. The root problem might still be there (having been born male), but the *disorder* that came from it isn't.
~Kate~
Quote from: Elwood on July 26, 2008, 05:38:10 PM
BEFORE transition. Besides, you can "get a job" and "be successful" but that doesn't mean you're happy or a functioning individual of society. The fact that you all spend so many hours on this forum tells me you have at least two disorders; an addiction to the internet (it actually has a name, which I will look up if I must) and gender identity disorder. Transitioning does not make GID go away. A person will still be overly sensitive to themselves and set high expectations for themselves quite often. Many people with GID are not satisfied no matter how many surgeries they've had. There are also many people with GID who are very happy even before transition; this does not make them GID. They still refuse to be addressed as society normally would, thus, they do not fit into the typical acts of things. Because of this, they will always struggle in their "non conformist" ways. Then they say, "I'm not disordered! SOCIETY is disorder!"
Check and mate. End of story. Bada-Bing. That's a wrap.
Post-transition is also very different than pre-transition, and I was talking about pre-transition.
The "disorder" of GID is a label that is placed on us and is self-perpetuating. It creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. If society viewed transition as a mentally and emotionally healthy thing to do, though perhaps not everyone's cup of tea, and did not discriminate against us, then I don't think there would be so much evidence of disorder.
You might respond that we might be more functional pre-transition without GID. That might be true. But if society had the attitude I mentioned, so that we were not pressured to be something else and made confused and were allowed to transition earlier, then the horrors of gender inapproproate physical development could be largely avoided ayway.
So I say that society's taboo is the thing doing us the most harm. It is irrational to have it. Society, though normal, is crazy, and imposes this "disorder" state on us externally. We are not the ones bringing the "disorder" to the table. It is not our failure to fit in society's norms that is the problem. It is society's norms that need to conform to accomodate us. I think that getting rid of the stigma of mental disorder is a necessary step in that direction.
It depends on the point of view. Under the old standards, I would have a disorder characterized as a "total psycho sexual inversion," and that I had a mental disorder. The doctor who was evaluating me would have been guided by what was written in a book, and his seeing what he perceives as a male body.
I'm guided by the way that I experience the world, my thoughts and feelings, the way that I naturally express myself, the way that I AM, and by comparing myself with others, I see and feel where I belong. All of the similarities are entirely with other genetic women. It is in this way that I have always felt that I'm a genetic female, and that the body is all wrong. In other words, from my point of view, there is nothing wrong with my mind at all. My mind is healthy and fully functional. The problem is medical...it's a BODY problem.
How would you express this? It isn't a mental disorder at all, but rather it's a physical abnormality of the most profound nature?
As long as it's corrected, and I'm planning on Montreal before the end of 2009, I really don't care what "they" or anyone else calls it. My perceptions and self expressions are the same as any other woman. My thoughts and feelings are the only one's that are important to me on this subject. It isn't about words.
I really don't get why it can't be reclassified as a medical (physical) condition. The only arguement against it i seem to find is that there are no physical symptoms. Yet doctors/psychiatrists use treatments that treat the body instead of the mind (i.e. hrt and surgery). Isn't that enough to make it a medical condition? ???
Medical stuff really confuzzles me!
And aren't the 'psychological symptoms' of GID, just symptoms of anxiety/depression/stress that some transgender people suffer from?
Quote from: Elwood on July 15, 2008, 11:34:55 PM
QuoteAnonymous: I just see it as the same way they used to include "homosexuality" DSM-IV. Gender dysphoria shouldn't be on there either. It's an identity thing, not a disorder. =/
Elwood: I like it being in there. You want to know why? :P
Anonymous: I can guess.
Elwood: Do. I'm curious. xD
Anonymous: Because you wouldn't get treatment otherwise.
Elwood: Bingo. It gives me a "legitimate" reason to transition. The doctors can't say no if I'm diagnosed.
Before you get too happy about getting treatment for having a disorder, please, consider the historical and political ramifications of it.
At the beginning of the 20th century estrogen therapy was the preferred method of castrating homosexuals. So there's this cultural thing about making sure the queers can't reproduce and spoil the gene pool, not to mention making it so they can't "get it up" to have that filthy gay sex.
Now add onto that the politics that says that mentally disordered people should be kept away from our children and denied housing, jobs, and services. And look at who is working on the DSM V to make "Reparative Therapy" the norm of treatment, at least for children. Remembering that the most common form of aversion therapy, which is what Reparative Therapy really is, used to be electroshock, please tell me you are still happy to be classed as having a disorder.
Quote from: Ellie's Lisbeff on July 27, 2008, 07:50:18 PMBefore you get too happy about getting treatment for having a disorder, please, consider the historical and political ramifications of it.
At the beginning of the 20th century estrogen therapy was the preferred method of castrating homosexuals. So there's this cultural thing about making sure the queers can't reproduce and spoil the gene pool, not to mention making it so they can't "get it up" to have that filthy gay sex.
Now add onto that the politics that says that mentally disordered people should be kept away from our children and denied housing, jobs, and services. And look at who is working on the DSM V to make "Reparative Therapy" the norm of treatment, at least for children. Remembering that the most common form of aversion therapy, which is what Reparative Therapy really is, used to be electroshock, please tell me you are still happy to be classed as having a disorder.
Well, I first don't think the politics matter to me. I'm not a politician, they're handing me the testosterone, why do I care why it was invented? That old practice isn't used anymore.
Since this revised version of the DSM doesn't have a high chance of passing any time soon, I don't see what good there is in me whining over the possible consequences. Your thoughts are always more dangerous than reality. I'm not going to sit around worrying about what could happen, because I'm too busy dealing with what really is happening.
Posted on: July 27, 2008, 07:12:18 PM
Quote from: jenny_ on July 27, 2008, 07:35:03 PM
I really don't get why it can't be reclassified as a medical (physical) condition. The only arguement against it i seem to find is that there are no physical symptoms. Yet doctors/psychiatrists use treatments that treat the body instead of the mind (i.e. hrt and surgery). Isn't that enough to make it a medical condition? ???
Medical stuff really confuzzles me!
And aren't the 'psychological symptoms' of GID, just symptoms of anxiety/depression/stress that some transgender people suffer from?
Body dysphoria is the major unusual symptom that makes GID special. It is also special because that body dysphoria seems to be only treatable by transition.
Posted on: July 27, 2008, 07:13:11 PM
Quote from: glendagladwitch on July 27, 2008, 02:30:28 PMSo I say that society's taboo is the thing doing us the most harm. It is irrational to have it.
I don't disagree with that at all, and yet I also still believe what I have also stated before.
Quote from: Elwood on July 27, 2008, 09:14:40 PM
Well, I first don't think the politics matter to me. I'm not a politician, they're handing me the testosterone, why do I care why it was invented? That old practice isn't used anymore.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fuc%2F20080717%2Fldb080718.gif&hash=ce5c8f4c0ae55e545d9c6271e2bb6719d928c6fa)
You can throw out at me that it is some horrible character flaw. I can't be perfect in every way. You can think of me as scum of the Earth for not caring; but I am apathetic towards such issues, will be, always will be, you can't change me, and frankly, you don't want to. I'm useless to you, so don't even bother.