->-bleeped-<- a Disorder?

[Shana A]

Yeah, revolution.

Count me in 

Z

[glendagladwitch]

I prefer that our genders be whatever we say our genders are.  So a person with a penis should be able to say, "I am a woman," and be legally recognized as such.  Then the woman can go to a doctor and say, "Look.  I have a penis.  And I don't have ovaries, and I'm not happy about that."  And the doctor can reply, "My sympathies, ma'am.  We'll fix you right up."  Or maybe the woman does not mind having a penis.  Why should she have to have it surgically modified to be legally recognized as a woman?  I just think we have a lot of work to do, and getting GID out of the DSM is an essential step in the right direction.

[Ayaname]

My mind and emotions have always rejected my body as it was naturally formed. I have no problem considering something like this a "disorder" because it just isn't natural to be born with a psyche that doesn't match up with you physical gender. IMO calling that "natural" is the same as claiming that it's natural for someone to be born with a stomach that rejects food.

[glendagladwitch]

But why is it necessarily a mental disorder instead of a physical malady.  I mean, if one has has a male body and female mind, why is it necessarily the case that there is something wrong with the mind?  I say there is nothing wrong with the mind.  It is the body that needs to be corrected.  It is the body that IS corrected.  And shouldn't a treatment that is purley aimed at changing the body be administered for a physical malady?

That is not to say that there can not also be mental problems on top of the gender disphoria.  But the gender identity is not a disorder.  And the predisposition to presume that a person with a male body OUGHT TO develop a male gender identity is base prejudice.  I think we should expect to have complete gender freedom. 

[Aiden]

I may be new at this, but way I see it, there is no normal, just what society calls normal or the majority rules scenario.

But as for disorder.  Disorder if I remember can be an unnatural problem with mind or body.  Technically you could say there is no problem with the mind 'or' body with a transgendered person.  Just a mismatch of the mind 'and' body 'together' but it is not an un-natural occurrence.  Your brain has no defect, your body has no defect. 

So yeh it could fit losely under disorder (but only of the mind and body entirely)  unfortunantly, people tend to think if something is wrong must be wrong with a certain part rather than the entirety.

You have phyciatrists, you have physicians, but how many you see specializing in both or taking into the consideration the big picture?  We are not disordered really, just unique.  But if we have to have a diagnoses for being different it should be a mental/body missmatch diagnoses not a mental 'or' physical diagnoses


(Hope I made some sense, probably not lol)

[Elwood]

I think it's considered psychological as a disorder because there are no physical symptoms. Everything we feel about being trans takes place in our brain.

A disorder is a psychological ailment that causes "disorder" in one's life. GID is considered a disorder because we cannot get normal jobs, be ourselves, be content without treatment or at least acknowledgment of our true genders.

[tekla]

Odd, I know people who transitioned as a vice president of Bank of America and went on to found their own company.  I know a girl who when she was young and "just a crossdresser" wrote a critical bit of code that made computer games far more playable and still cashes the checks for that bit of insight, and now she has transitioned and is a top independent consultant and no one cares if she is she, or might have been a he, or whatever, all they care about is.... 'When can you get it back on-line?"  I have an FtM as my apprentice in IATSE and he is doing very well indeed - and I do ride him hard and put him up wet, because nothing less then being perfect is good enough for me, and it better never be good enough for him either.  That is how he is going to make it.

I know people who have transitioned who have become medical types, lawyer types, still kept their university teaching job types.  And on and on. 

Its about not obsessing, and being able to compartmentalize that makes the difference.

[Elwood]

BEFORE transition. Besides, you can "get a job" and "be successful" but that doesn't mean you're happy or a functioning individual of society. The fact that you all spend so many hours on this forum tells me you have at least two disorders; an addiction to the internet (it actually has a name, which I will look up if I must) and gender identity disorder. Transitioning does not make GID go away. A person will still be overly sensitive to themselves and set high expectations for themselves quite often. Many people with GID are not satisfied no matter how many surgeries they've had. There are also many people with GID who are very happy even before transition; this does not make them GID. They still refuse to be addressed as society normally would, thus, they do not fit into the typical acts of things. Because of this, they will always struggle in their "non conformist" ways. Then they say, "I'm not disordered! SOCIETY is disorder!"

Check and mate. End of story. Bada-Bing. That's a wrap.

Post-transition is also very different than pre-transition, and I was talking about pre-transition.

[tekla]

I don't want to argue, but I do what I know, and who I know.  (and do you know anything that was not written by screenwriters for some other person to say, it's like you don't look like a Jersey Wise Guy or anything, so don't quote them). I'm just saying that all persons with GID do not let it rule them, or influence every aspect of their life - that's obsessive - but has a life, it changed and they changed with it.

Sure I have GID, though not to the degree that others here seem to have it, or I found a way around it, or I found a middle place where its mostly OK.  I did my own RLT for a year (an actual calendar year, I'm nothing if not exact) and I liked it, but not enough to go further, which is the real reason for the RLT.  Had I liked what I was, and were it got me, I'm pretty sure I could have walked out of my first phych consultation with a script.  But long before I ever put any chemical in my body I wanted to be sure.  So I checked it out.  It was not me.

Not that it stopped me from cross gender behavior, it made me more open to including all of that in my day to day life.  Not one, or the other, but I'm just sort of both, and neither at the same time.  So that's me.  And finding out who you are is priceless information.

Transitioning does not make GID go away.
Not according to a lot of people on here.  Given the cure, the GID goes away.

Because of this, they will always struggle in their "non conformist" ways.
Real non-conforming people live for this, they do not struggle with it.  In fact, most real non-conforming types live in fear that they might just turn out to be like everyone else.

I'm on the net as a function of my work, I have lots of time at times, other times I'm gone for days and days.  But I do live in a wired culture, with wireless almost everywhere I go. so its not that hard to watch a single site, in fact, I watch several.  Hell my Apple lets me know when something is responded to.  And I'm just waiting for the show, and its hours away.

[Elwood]

Don't you tell me what I can and cannot say, and what I look like has got nothing to do with it.

I had never said that people with GID "let" it rule them, but it does. That's what makes it a disorder. If GID didn't rule our lives, we'd deal with it and not transition. We'd get over it, live lives as the genders we're not, because GID isn't powerful enough to change our bodies. Once it is powerful enough to influence us to commit acts of downright self mutilation, it looks very much like a disorder-- because it is one. You want to argue about that? I'm not the person to talk to. Talk to a medical professional. Or just look it up in the bloody DSM. It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal. You want to deny it? Take it up with the people who spent years writing it and revising it. That isn't my argument, but I certainly do agree with it.

You do want to argue, and that's why you've chosen to make snide comments and talk to me like I'm some dimwitted buffoon.

Transitioning does not make GID go away. That's what you don't understand. My body was born female, and I will never be able to change that. I can become male, but the fact that I had to do that and sustain that means I have a consistent flow of GID. If GID stopped, I'd want to be a girl. The GID does not go away, and there is no "cure" to being transgendered. What goes away are the harmful and painful symptoms.

There are not any real non-conformists. They're all sheep who feel like there are rules for themselves and rules for everyone else. Everyone thinks they're the exception. They never are.

Putting a band-aid over a wound isn't what makes that wound heal. If a transgendered person stopped being transgendered when they transitioned, they'd want to untransition. Being transgendered means your gender does not match your original sex.

[Aiden]

You know Eltwood, everyone on here seemed to been sharing opinions and ideas respectfully till your last post.  What was up with that?

[Elwood]

tekla has a really discreet yet direct way of talking down to me. And no one seems to notice.

[Elwood]

Of course. Transition does make the symptoms go away, but not the cause of the symptoms. It still exists. I really shouldn't be bothering trying to explain it to people, because most people don't know the difference between a symptom and a condition. The fact is, the symptoms are treated, but the condition still exists.

A cure implies that the condition is gone. For instance, you cannot cure the common cold. You can, however, treat its symptoms. Eventually your body flushes the cold virus out of its system. Since GID is a psychological condition, it cannot be flushed out or cured. It's symptoms, however, can be suppressed. Your main point? Yes, you wouldn't care that you still had GID if transition had eliminated the symptoms. But this isn't about caring. My point is that GID never goes away, and transition is just a permanent band-aid.

A transgendered person believes that they are no longer transgendered. They tell themselves this to make themselves feel better. "I'm the right sex now, so I'm cisgendered." If a transgendered person calls themselves cisgendered, they are being misleading. It is okay to lie and to be stealth, but at least one should be aware of their own lying. Also, I don't believe someone can both have trans pride and then deny that they are trans. Even if by vernacular terms the person is no longer transgendered, they're still trans because they're undeniably a transsexual.

Being happy with your gender is not being free of GID. GID does not come merely in the form of ->-bleeped-<-. For instance, a woman who feels her breasts much be much larger has a gender identity disorder-- a variation of it. The term can be used either generally or specifically, but to get back to my point, eliminating the symptoms of a condition does not mean that condition is gone.

I'll keep an eye out and give myself a chance to try to understand tekla. I don't like to be enemies with someone who knows where I go to school.

[Aiden]

Transgender and GID are not same thing.  GID (Gender Identity Disorder)  as in you identify as the oposit gender than your body says it is.  If your mind is female, and your happy with your body matching your gender, then technically you don't have an identity problem anymore.

Yes because your body is still XX or XY chromosomes some might still consider you transgender depends on if peopel are looking at chromosomes or physical features.  But if you feel your happy with how you body expresses your gender, it's not an identity issue anymore. 

[Kate]

My point is that GID never goes away, and transition is just a permanent band-aid.

A really interesting point! Yes, I've often mentioned that my *real* problem is that I wasn't born female. And I STILL don't know if this "permanent bandaid" will be enough. But I am committed to finding out.

On the other hand, if I just look at things from a very practical point of view... before transitioning, I was totally obsessed with my sex and gender 24/7, every day of my life. It warped my daily life, appending "yea, but you're not a girl..." to *anything I thought or did. THAT, to me, is a "disorder."

After transition, that just doesn't happen anymore. Oh sure, I'm still a bit focused on things with SRS coming up and all, but overall I don't think about what sex I am (or aren't) anymore. So it seems fair to say I "cured" my disorder. The root problem might still be there (having been born male), but the *disorder* that came from it isn't.

~Kate~

[glendagladwitch]

BEFORE transition. Besides, you can "get a job" and "be successful" but that doesn't mean you're happy or a functioning individual of society. The fact that you all spend so many hours on this forum tells me you have at least two disorders; an addiction to the internet (it actually has a name, which I will look up if I must) and gender identity disorder. Transitioning does not make GID go away. A person will still be overly sensitive to themselves and set high expectations for themselves quite often. Many people with GID are not satisfied no matter how many surgeries they've had. There are also many people with GID who are very happy even before transition; this does not make them GID. They still refuse to be addressed as society normally would, thus, they do not fit into the typical acts of things. Because of this, they will always struggle in their "non conformist" ways. Then they say, "I'm not disordered! SOCIETY is disorder!"

Check and mate. End of story. Bada-Bing. That's a wrap.

Post-transition is also very different than pre-transition, and I was talking about pre-transition.

The "disorder" of GID is a label that is placed on us and is self-perpetuating.  It creates a self-fulfilling prophecy.  If society viewed transition as a mentally and emotionally healthy thing to do, though perhaps not everyone's cup of tea, and did not discriminate against us, then I don't think there would be so much evidence of disorder.

You might respond that we might be more functional pre-transition without GID.  That might be true.  But if society had the attitude I mentioned, so that we were not pressured to be something else and made confused and were allowed to transition earlier, then the horrors of gender inapproproate physical development could be largely avoided ayway.

So I say that society's taboo is the thing doing us the most harm.  It is irrational to have it.  Society, though normal, is crazy, and imposes this "disorder" state on us externally.  We are not the ones bringing the "disorder" to the table. It is not our failure to fit in society's norms that is the problem.  It is society's norms that need to conform to accomodate us.  I think that getting rid of the stigma of mental disorder is a necessary step in that direction.

[April221]

It depends on the point of view. Under the old standards, I would have a disorder characterized as  a "total psycho sexual inversion," and that I had a mental disorder. The doctor who was evaluating me would have been guided by what was written in a book, and his seeing what he perceives as a male body.

I'm guided by the way that I experience the world, my thoughts and feelings, the way that I naturally express myself, the way that I AM, and by comparing myself with others, I see and feel where I belong. All of the similarities are entirely with other genetic women. It is in this way that I have always felt that I'm a genetic female, and that the body is all wrong. In other words, from my point of view, there is nothing wrong with my mind at all. My mind is healthy and fully functional. The problem is medical...it's a BODY problem.

How would you express this? It isn't a mental disorder at all, but rather it's a physical abnormality of the most profound nature?

As long as it's corrected, and I'm planning on Montreal before the end of 2009, I really don't care what "they" or anyone else calls it. My perceptions and self expressions are the same as any other woman. My thoughts and feelings are the only one's that are important to me on this subject. It isn't about words.

[jenny_]

I really don't get why it can't be reclassified as a medical (physical) condition.  The only arguement against it i seem to find is that there are no physical symptoms.  Yet doctors/psychiatrists use treatments that treat the body instead of the mind (i.e. hrt and surgery).  Isn't that enough to make it a medical condition?
Medical stuff really confuzzles me!

And aren't the 'psychological symptoms' of GID, just symptoms of anxiety/depression/stress that some transgender people suffer from?

[Lisbeth]

Anonymous: I just see it as the same way they used to include "homosexuality" DSM-IV. Gender dysphoria shouldn't be on there either. It's an identity thing, not a disorder. =/

Elwood: I like it being in there. You want to know why?

Anonymous: I can guess.

Elwood: Do. I'm curious. xD

Anonymous:  Because you wouldn't get treatment otherwise.

Elwood: Bingo. It gives me a "legitimate" reason to transition. The doctors can't say no if I'm diagnosed.

Before you get too happy about getting treatment for having a disorder, please, consider the historical and political ramifications of it.

At the beginning of the 20th century estrogen therapy was the preferred method of castrating homosexuals.  So there's this cultural thing about making sure the queers can't reproduce and spoil the gene pool, not to mention making it so they can't "get it up" to have that filthy gay sex.

Now add onto that the politics that says that mentally disordered people should be kept away from our children and denied housing, jobs, and services.  And look at who is working on the DSM V to make "Reparative Therapy" the norm of treatment, at least for children.  Remembering that the most common form of aversion therapy, which is what Reparative Therapy really is, used to be electroshock, please tell me you are still happy to be classed as having a disorder.

[Elwood]

Before you get too happy about getting treatment for having a disorder, please, consider the historical and political ramifications of it.

At the beginning of the 20th century estrogen therapy was the preferred method of castrating homosexuals.  So there's this cultural thing about making sure the queers can't reproduce and spoil the gene pool, not to mention making it so they can't "get it up" to have that filthy gay sex.

Now add onto that the politics that says that mentally disordered people should be kept away from our children and denied housing, jobs, and services.  And look at who is working on the DSM V to make "Reparative Therapy" the norm of treatment, at least for children.  Remembering that the most common form of aversion therapy, which is what Reparative Therapy really is, used to be electroshock, please tell me you are still happy to be classed as having a disorder.

Well, I first don't think the politics matter to me. I'm not a politician, they're handing me the testosterone, why do I care why it was invented? That old practice isn't used anymore.

Since this revised version of the DSM doesn't have a high chance of passing any time soon, I don't see what good there is in me whining over the possible consequences. Your thoughts are always more dangerous than reality. I'm not going to sit around worrying about what could happen, because I'm too busy dealing with what really is happening.

Posted on: July 27, 2008, 07:12:18 PM

I really don't get why it can't be reclassified as a medical (physical) condition.  The only arguement against it i seem to find is that there are no physical symptoms.  Yet doctors/psychiatrists use treatments that treat the body instead of the mind (i.e. hrt and surgery).  Isn't that enough to make it a medical condition?
Medical stuff really confuzzles me!

And aren't the 'psychological symptoms' of GID, just symptoms of anxiety/depression/stress that some transgender people suffer from?

Body dysphoria is the major unusual symptom that makes GID special. It is also special because that body dysphoria seems to be only treatable by transition.

Posted on: July 27, 2008, 07:13:11 PM

So I say that society's taboo is the thing doing us the most harm.  It is irrational to have it.

I don't disagree with that at all, and yet I also still believe what I have also stated before.