->-bleeped-<- a Disorder?

[Elwood]

Anonymous: I just see it as the same way they used to include "homosexuality" DSM-IV. Gender dysphoria shouldn't be on there either. It's an identity thing, not a disorder. =/

Elwood: I like it being in there. You want to know why?

Anonymous: I can guess.

Elwood: Do. I'm curious. xD

Anonymous:  Because you wouldn't get treatment otherwise.

Elwood: Bingo. It gives me a "legitimate" reason to transition. The doctors can't say no if I'm diagnosed.

A short part of a chat I had.

How do you feel about our gender identities being called a disorder?

[Kat89]

Is there another way to say disorder? It gives me the thoughts like it is "no normal" when i think about it closely, dis order so not orderly or not normally. Which then tells me "but we are normal, just with a disorder?"

It makes me feel weird. But i shouldn't or should i?

[tekla]

There is a rather large, on the ground movement in the community not to fight about who is writing the next DSM but to get it out in total.  Matter of fact, the banners at the TransMarch in SF this year were from that group.

They view TG in all its forms as a normal human condition and not a problem to be 'solved.'  Because its a normal (in that it occurs in a regular pattern throughout the population) there are many ways to accept and deal with it, where if its a medical issue the only way to deal with it is medical.

[NicholeW.]

I have to agree with the medical inclusion, obviously, at least for transsexuals because we simply need those.

The "disorder" part is the same "disorder" that gays, lesbians, polyamorous, African_Americans, women, people who derive from East Asian, Middle Eastern, African (who are non-white,) Jews, Muslims, etc, etc face in USA: a pattern of harrassment, dismissal and demeaning from the majority face. The difficulties that ensue from that do need attention.

That would place the pathology for transsexuals into a medical frame and for other transgendered people it would remove pathology of any kind. Go read the DSM on Transvestic Fetishism! I mean the language is simply heartless!

Virulent hatred should be the "disordered" category. The psychic assistance & pathology, if there are to be some, needs to be geared toward them.

Nichole

[mickie88]

imo, i have a medical CONDITION, that does not allow me to fully represent as completely female if i was to have a full body exam. so, yeah i don't like disorder either, as like most of us, i'm just as normal as the next girl or guy for the guys, but come on! seriously normal is so completely overrated. i don't want to be like everybody else, i want to be ME.



Warrior Princess Mickie

[Purple Pimp]

IMHO, definitely not.  I think it's just a natural part of human variation.  In a world where two socially defined sexes is the norm, it's natural that out of 6 billion people there will be those that transcend those social boundaries.

It just seems so dangerous to pathologize natural human variation.  It gets us into the situation we have now, with needing permission from our "betters" to access medical care.  Yuck.

Lia

[Purple Pimp]

LOL who says we 'ave "to ask permission"?

Well, I mean, we can perceive it however we wish to, but the truth is (at least in America) that you can't access treatment (hormones, surgeries) without a psychiatrist's letter.  That one cannot make the decision for oneself, that one needs an "expert" opinion, to me implies needing the permission of the psychiatric community.

Lia

[tekla]

If not permission, at least pay them first, they are gatekeepers on a toll road after all.

If the issues gets messy enough, with several different points of view that can not find a middle ground I would not put it past the DSM folks to just kick it to the curb.  The easy way out is often a very attractive solution in any bureaucratic administration, which is what the DSM is.

Never underestimate what a few organized, if crazy, people can do.

[NicholeW.]

If not permission, at least pay them first, they are gatekeepers on a toll road after all.

And even for those that's not especially true of it certainly appears to be true to the majority of transitioners. That kinda makes it true. And maybe the second-biggest reason that I think it should be, as should most of the "sexual & fetish disorders" in DSM, totally cut-out.

The first biggest reason? Transsexuals do not access therapeutic care for any kind of therapy at all; most just are trying to get those letters and will say & do wahtever they think will do that. As a practitioner I find that both of the matters to be a net harm for the profession and certainly for the patient whose welfare is supposed to be the first concern of the practitioner.

Let's go to D.C. for the work-group and plenary sessions.

Nichole

[tekla]

Yeah a lot of it seems like a lot of legal CYA stuff.  The medical doctors are not at fault if they have some sort of letter from someone else saying its OK.

Dropping it would also eliminate a lot of the funding that the people you don't like get to do the research you don't agree with.

[NicholeW.]

Or the docs could do what Suporn, I think it is, does; has his own shrink on staff to do the evaluation. Bet that cuts down on the winnowed TSes!

N~

[tekla]

Well Suporn does not have to be subject to the American Lawsuit Industry either, nor AMA guidelines.  I'm sure that helps too.

[NicholeW.]

Naturement

... to start, let's kill all the lawyers.

Sorry, Tasha, can you change careers just now?

N~

[tekla]

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers".   Henry VI - (Act IV, Scene II).

The remark in context was not meant to bring any sanity by eliminating them, but rather by eliminating the guardians of free and independent thinking as a prelude to a revolution.

So that the line in context reads:

JACK CADE.
    I thank you, good people:- there shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score; and I will apparel them all in one livery, that they may agree like brothers, and worship me their lord.

DICK.
    The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.


tekla, who shudders to think she is defending lawyers, but so be it.  I sure would rather have the American tort law system then not have it.

[Sheila]

The only reason I liked GID in the DVM was for all the reasons said above. You need the meds and anything else you can get with your insurance. You also need to get the meds. As far as being Gay, you don't need a doctor to like the same gender and you don't need meds or surgery for that either. I don't like it in there, but to get my meds when I was in transition, I needed it in there. As far as the word "normal" goes. I think that normal means average, well someone has to be on one side or the other on that curve.

[Kate]

Would doctors be able to legally (and ethically) prescribe hormones to TSs without a medical diagnosis justifying it?

What about surgeons? COULD they perform SRS without a medical diagnosis justifying it?

~Kate~

[NicholeW.]

The ICD-10 has a medical diagnosis.



BTW, Kat, I do know why the line is in the play and said by an idiot to boot. But thanks for the note.

Nichole

[tekla]

Hey I think the popularity of old Willie the Bard is that a lot of people in those plays are pretty dumb - or at least, very human.  Romeo and Juliet were not the sharpest tacks in the box either, nor were either Hamlet or Macbeth who had they exchanged places would not have any problems for one acted when they should not have the other did not act when he should have.

But keeping it on the DSM and putting all with some form of it under the stigma of 'a mental problem' for the sake of funding for a few is not the best solution either.

[Shana A]

I don't believe it is a mental disorder and don't think that it being classified as such is helping us any. If it were considered a physiological condition instead, one could still be eligible for insurance for treatment.

IMO, modern society has the more severe illness, non-willingness to see or accept gender diversity.  We've always been here, throughout history. I wish they'd get over their rigid, pathological need to make everything fit into narrow binary categories. Is there some treatment for that??  >

Zythyra

[tekla]

Yeah, revolution.