Can MTF-transsexual woman be a little bit autistic. When I was younger it was one reason that I did not get treament. Is it impossible to be an autistic MTF?
I have been also prosecuted of being some kind of normal intelligence autism syndrom. Asperger's syndrome. However I do not believe in myself. >:(
i'm an FTM with asperger's. of course it's possible.
There is a theory that autistic brain are ''very masculine''.
So for FTM:s is good to be autistic. :)
For us MTF:s it is not. Many think that it overrules MTF-transsexuality. :(
Quote from: Secretgirl on September 13, 2008, 12:18:41 PM
There is a theory that autistic brain are ''very masculine''.
So for FTM:s is good to be autistic. :)
For us MTF:s it is not. Many think that it overrules MTF-transsexuality. :(
The autistic spectrum is extreme left brain, the stereotypical 'male' brain, yes.
But being on the spectrum isn't GOOD for anyone.
I have been diagnosed with asperger's before actually, so I would have to say, yes, it is very possible. And I would say my brain is pretty far from "very masculine" as I am probably an MtF.
And I don't know if this is very relevant, but for me this dancer spins clockwise and it is very difficult for me to get her to spin counterclockwise: http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22535838-5012895,00.html
Fact is GGs are diagnosed with it. It annoys me when people think that we MTFs have to be some kind of idealized picture of femininity when GGs are all over the board.
I'm MTF and I'm pretty sure I've got Asperger's.
Posted on: September 16, 2008, 03:48:47 PM
Also, I saw the dancer as counterclockwise originally, but after a minute of concentration, it flipped to clockwise. Five minutes later, and I could switch at will. Whenever I revisit the page, it's how I last remember it.
Quote from: Nephie on September 16, 2008, 02:54:21 PM
I'm MTF and I'm pretty sure I've got Asperger's.
Posted on: September 16, 2008, 03:48:47 PM
Also, I saw the dancer as counterclockwise originally, but after a minute of concentration, it flipped to clockwise. Five minutes later, and I could switch at will. Whenever I revisit the page, it's how I last remember it.
So did I. I tried to reverse it but could not at first, eventually by looking away and back I could, then just by blinking I can now do it at will.
What does it mean? :D
LLL&R
Maebh
Quote from: FallenLeaves on September 16, 2008, 02:23:16 PMAnd I don't know if this is very relevant, but for me this dancer spins clockwise and it is very difficult for me to get her to spin counterclockwise: http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22535838-5012895,00.html
OMG that is the weirdest thing.
At first I saw her going clockwise, and it was impossible to see how she could go counterclockwise.
Then I looked away and read the text... and when I looked back, I noticed she was going counterclockwise.
Then as I continued to look right at her, I saw her reverse direction and spin clockwise again.
Freaked me but good!
Edit-- Every time I return to that page, I initially see the spin as clockwise. Then if I keep staring right at it, I will see the direction reverse again and again, back and forth, about once a minute. What's up with that?
OK, I've gotten my perception of that dancer thing to the point where I can just have her swing her leg back and forth, without completing a revolution at all. It was hard, since I needed teach myself to ignore the way the legs change left/right designations when it happens. It's like trying to make yourself believe in an Escher drawing.
EDIT:
Wow... the more I do it, the more I feel this kind of mental "noise" when I switch directions. I's almost like a "tap-tap-tap" drumbeat just above and behind my eyes when it happens.
Quote from: nerdychick on September 16, 2008, 02:42:25 PM
Fact is GGs are diagnosed with it. It annoys me when people think that we MTFs have to be some kind of idealized picture of femininity when GGs are all over the board.
I totally agree. I rather tire of this race to some sort of "holy grail" of femininity so many MtFs work themselves up over trying to achieve.
Quote from: Alexandra on September 16, 2008, 11:12:16 PM
Quote from: nerdychick on September 16, 2008, 02:42:25 PM
Fact is GGs are diagnosed with it. It annoys me when people think that we MTFs have to be some kind of idealized picture of femininity when GGs are all over the board.
I totally agree. I rather tire of this race to some sort of "holy grail" of femininity so many MtFs work themselves up over trying to achieve.
*Gasp!*Are you saying that I am
not perfectly feminine in every way?
*Cries*
I saw it clockwise when I tried.
I got no feminity points from professional psychological testing.
I got braingender test from internet and got masculine female/ normal male brains.
My personality straights test from internet was 4-5 times more feminine than masculine.
I got female from both communication and behaviour stairt tests from internet.
All those results are quit confusing
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, but being female isn't a disease. (Neither is male, I suppose...). Statistical gender tests are just collections of personality stereotypes, not medical diagnostics.
Well I'll be dawgone, I could see the girl going counterclockwise more often the clockwise and Wing Walker told me it was all an illusion, the girl actually has three legs. "Hee, hee, hee!"
Cindy
So, does anyone know if the girl actually has any relevance, or just a fun thing? I've had it on my favorites forever now because I always wondered.
Hi FallenLeaves, it's an eye to mind illusion. I found that if I really concentrated of the moving form it was almost as though I was controlling it to move in what ever direction I willed it to, but actually it is constantly rotating in one direction only, although I think it would be quite debatable to try and convince folks which direction the constant spinning is in. It's Just a fun thing to do. I'm a party popper with games like this so I seldom get involved in them.
Cindy
I don't know if it's related at all, but I think that the ease with which you can make it flip might have some bearing on the state of your corpus callosum, the largest mass of white matter in the brain. Women are said to have more white matter than men.
Regarding autism, isn't it supposed to be a kind of extreme left-brainedness?
Well now I forgot what this topic was about to start with but I must agree that having any brain disorder, like autism, could have an influence of how one perceives things, like when drinking to much or smoking pot. ;D
The white mass in ones brain I am not to familiar with, but I do know that a woman uses the left side of the brain more then the right side. Oh me goodness, I could find loads of information on how the female brain works as compared to the male brain. They are entirely two different spheres of mental processes used for conceiving the world around us. I believe that for one the right side is more for the process of the abstract, mechanical and mathematical dimensions. While the left is used more for texture hues and colors as well as the ability of intuition.
This does not mean that a male of female can't equally and adeptly access the right and left side of the brain reciprocally. It is just more common that we mostly only mostly use one side or the other side more consistently, depending on gender. It does not mean that a male will not see or conceive that very same information as a woman does, but we do see and interpret it differently.
I beleive using the color scale to explain might simplify it some. You would find that a female will see with a much more diverse and complex reality as well as with an abundant with colors in perceptions. This is believed to be that for the reason that a male will compartmentalises all their thought feelings and experiences, while women are all in one big box without separators, well something like that, if anyone is curious enough I could go fetch a couple of web sites on the subject.
The brain is a complex organism and only in the past thirty years have they made any real inroads on the study of the human brain.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on September 18, 2008, 03:27:38 PM
The brain is a complex organism and only in the past thirty years have they made any real inroads on the study of the human brain.
Cindy
Wich brings the question of nature versus nurture? Could one be geneticaly pre-disposed one way but with training one be able to learn to access more brain functions. From the answers it seems that with a bit of patience and will power quite a few were able to reverse the spin. Or is it because here at Susan's, "the sample" is askew due to our common TGism? >:D
I always knew WE WERE ALL SPECIAL! :D
LLL&R
Maebh
I started seeing it only turning clockwise, but now it seems to switch back and forth on me. Weird. Oh yeah, I have epilepsy, but not autism.
Consider this...
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2008/09/18/vlog/index.html (http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2008/09/18/vlog/index.html)
Quoteabout a study finding that autism presents itself differently in girls than in boys and, most interesting, that some girls' symptoms may go unnoticed because of our views of femininity. One expert, the National Autistic Society's Judith Gould, told the BBC: "The way autism is presented in women can be very complex and so can be missed. It might be that due to misconceptions and stereotypes, many girls and women with autism are never referred for diagnosis, and so are missing from statistics."
Hi Hypatia, that was a very interesting article with video, except I wish I had a colt forty five to shoot that darn Cadillac advert that kept me from seeing the complete video.
Hi Maebh, yes there are those who can access both he left and right side of the brain equally. Ambidexterity is one example of that. A woman who is adept at interior decoration and can do detailed labor and materials estimates might also be another.
To be sure there are many women who are quite capable of doing a mans work while still retaining a woman's inner person, just like more men today who are taking over the care of children and other what use to be exclusively female activities.
I know only a smidgen about genetics and one thing that I do remember reading somewhere about DNA activation, which simply means using ones own will to access and reactivate dormant DNA strands. I also beleive that our DNA is in some way connected to the subconscious mind.
Cindy
I know am a guy in the girl's section but got curious and tried the girl spinning thing. Seemed to go clockwise mostly but every once in a while switch for some reason.
And as far as Autisim, never was diagnosed with it though had family who thought I was mildly.
I found this link that you may you all may find interesting
Transsexuals experience themselves as being of the opposite sex, despite having the biological characteristics of one sex. A crucial question resulting from a previous brain study in male-to-female transsexuals was whether the reported difference according to gender identity in the central part of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) was based on a neuronal difference in the BSTc itself or just a reflection of a difference in vasoactive intestinal polypeptide innervation from the amygdala, which was used as a marker.
Therefore, we determined in 42 subjects the number of somatostatin-expressing neurons in the BSTc in relation to sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, and past or present hormonal status. Regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurons as women (P < 0.006). The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females (P = 0.83). In contrast, the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range.
Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers. The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034 (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034)
Cindy
Actually there are heaps and heaps of neurological studies that show transexuals group with tehir preferred sex not their birth sex. Well to be honest i can't think of that many, but i can't think of any that group them with their birth sex for anything neurological.
Maybe some sort of neurological diagnosis (a brain scan or something) could be used to more quickly diagnose those that could better benifit from SRS and other re-assignemnt treatments? This could weed out the few people who may feel unhappy with their gender or body, but who may feel no happier in a new body. It may also allow earlier treatment to be given more confidently, if it could be accurately diagnosed in 12-year-olds maybe puberty-blockers could be given making later transition easier. Obviously personal choice would be the final decider, but maybe some of the nuerological data could help, more help family and doctors be reassured of the patient's decision than anything else i think?
Late to this but became curious with the dancer, could not get her to go counter-clockwise at all, only clockwise, I am left handed as well.
Stardust
As to the dancer, I looked ans he was going clock then looked away and back she was counter clock, looked away and back clockwise again, It happened everytime I looked away and then back at it again.
This is an interesting article which theorizes the actual cause of autism to be the expression of dormant DNA from neanderthals. ""Some autistics feel they were born with the wrong gender. It is common for autistic females to be tomboys and for autistic males to be more passive than is normal.""
http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm (http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm)
that's silly from the outset, we can't have any "doprmant DNA from neanderthals" because we were not decended from neanderthals, they are our cousins not our grandparents.
edit: ok their theory relates to later hybridisation, that's more logical, except it still has a few holes. i take "doesn't appear in peer-reviewed journals" as a bad sign...
I do think there is a link with some transsexuals, as thier is a link to undiagnosed IS syndromes. I don't think there is one single cause to transsexuality, but rather several. I think that a Pervasive Development Disorder of some sort can cause transsexuality, since gender identity issues is often pervasive in autism spectrum disorders(many people with autism and Aspergers have delayed formulation of gender identity, where it does not exhibit is itself strongly until much later than in neurotypical kids). Though I think a link between transsexuality and autism is much stronger in "Early" transitioners, than it is in older transitioners. There is a higher co-morribund diagnosis in younger transitioners (those who transition under 35), and manifestation of transsexuality in younger transitioners sometimes closely resembles manifestation of AS or PDD-NOS. In that it often involves social imbalances throughout much of ones life, including social isolation or being the target of extensive bullying. From what I have seen myself there is often more "autistic traits" with some younger individuals who transition. They are much more likely to be outsiders throughout thier life. (The coralation between autism and transexuality is mentioned in academic journals if you bother to do the research). Alot of what older individuals have done, the conformity and adaptability thier birth sex pre-transition, suggests a different cause other than a developmental disorder like autism since there is often more social adaptability and conformity pre-transition.
Even then I think pervasive development disorder is only one of the causes of transsexuality.
i did do a bit of research, but i couldn't find anything quantitative, just two or three case studies, can you give us some references?
Quote from: metal angel on August 18, 2009, 08:34:41 PM
that's silly from the outset, we can't have any "doprmant DNA from neanderthals" because we were not decended from neanderthals, they are our cousins not our grandparents.
edit: ok their theory relates to later hybridisation, that's more logical, except it still has a few holes. i take "doesn't appear in peer-reviewed journals" as a bad sign...
Neanderthal in frily underwear, what a picture! :D
LLL&R
Maebh
PS. If he is a fetishist does that make him an Homo Erectus? >:-)
Hi, my first post and I am straight into talking about two or three subjects at once.
First, I am MtoF well in the groove, been trainsitioned 15 years and post-op 11.
Secondly, have AS, brilliant the two......... 'disorders' are related, most of my family are on the spectrum and there are 3 MtoF TS people as well.
Thirdly, I looked at the dancer and got her to go either direction, started off clockwise and very quickly turned her around and back again.
Anybody else here think in pictures? Totally awesome being able to think visually instead of words.
Anyway, thats me! ;D
I see the dancer turn clockwise, if I focus enough I can perceive is as anti-clockwise, but returns to clockwise again pretty soon.
I've wondered quite a lot between the relationship between autism and gender issues.
When I was little I was diagnosed with ADHD, then later with Aspergers, largely because of my behavioral issues.
But what if GID (or whatever you want to call it) has a tendency to cause similar symptoms early on?
I if anything "grew out" of my supposed Aspergers, to the point where I can't help but feel I was misdiagnosed.
I have done a LOT of reading on Aspergers, and have never been able to make it properly apply to my own issues.
I can't sympathize with problems in "reading people", I don't see myself when I've seen other people diagnosed with aspergers. I would hear about people learning about Aspergers and suddenly realizing that was what they were going through, I never had that.
That is until, I properly read about transsexualism. It was only then that I had that lightbulb moment where I could say "this could be me".
So for me, I wonder a lot about my childhood diagnosis and how it applies, if at all, to me today.
I wonder if perhaps gender identity issues, one of the few things about my childhood I DO remember having, can manifest in ways that could be misinterpreted as autistic behavior.
Just a thought.
Quote from: asfsd4214 on September 19, 2009, 01:23:35 PM
So for me, I wonder a lot about my childhood diagnosis and how it applies, if at all, to me today.
I wonder if perhaps gender identity issues, one of the few things about my childhood I DO remember having, can manifest in ways that could be misinterpreted as autistic behavior.
Just a thought.
I think that someone can learn enough coping strategies to overcome some of the autistic traits, therefore as you get older and more experienced in dealing with the problems you once faced, it appears that the diagnosis was incorrect.
I know several other TS people who are also autistic as well and the weight of evidence connecting the two is accumulating, ...........then again there is a weight of evidence produced by Louis Gooren that most of the scientific community has ignored about transsexualism.
At the start of this discussion someone implied that autism is the latest fad, then all I can say is come talk to my dad, brother and his kids, my sister and her kids, and my 4 aspie children. There is no fad, just a hard and sometimes sad reality that they are on the autistic spectrum. :(
Didn't finish reading, sorry, but I gotta comment on the spin thing, I've been to those left brain right brain tests hundreds of times... And for some reason it depends on what eye I look through... (I'll explain in a different thread if someone starts it...) If i'm looking through my right eye she spins like the test claims she should on left brain if I'm looking through the left she spins the other way...with both eyes I can willfully change direction (have been since 2 seconds in about) but the first glance with an eye is always the same....
basically i was just wondering if this is weird but i realize now just the fact that i choose eyes is weird..sorry if i wasted your time reading this, but hopefully it'll be fascinating to someone...
PS: i'm high functioning autistic as well (syndrome: auspergers) and we all know that I'm totally fem. (little hard to be the ninja master of cuteness and not be!)
Quote from: Viking lady on September 19, 2009, 01:52:36 PM
I think that someone can learn enough coping strategies to overcome some of the autistic traits, therefore as you get older and more experienced in dealing with the problems you once faced, it appears that the diagnosis was incorrect.
I know several other TS people who are also autistic as well and the weight of evidence connecting the two is accumulating, ...........then again there is a weight of evidence produced by Louis Gooren that most of the scientific community has ignored about transsexualism.
At the start of this discussion someone implied that autism is the latest fad, then all I can say is come talk to my dad, brother and his kids, my sister and her kids, and my 4 aspie children. There is no fad, just a hard and sometimes sad reality that they are on the autistic spectrum. :(
While I don't for a moment doubt the condition exists, I do
suspect it IS over diagnosed at the moment.
As for coping strategies, I've read about these various coping strategies, and I can't see how they apply to the way my mind works at all.
I honestly think my diagnosis was wrong. I don't think they were incompetent in their diagnosis, simply mistaken.
I don't know why I used to act autistic, in fact I don't even know how I used to act at all. I remember shockingly little about my childhood for someone only 21.
But I've never been able to fit myself in with other people with aspergers, and have never had any difficulties with social interaction in my adult life that I've perceived. If I've just learned coping strategies, I'm blind to them to such a degree that the skills I'd supposedly be poor at, feel innate.
My gender issues on the other hand, are very real and that's a description I do feel applies to me very accurately.
Quote from: asfsd4214 on September 19, 2009, 10:34:15 PM
Point 1 While I don't for a moment doubt the condition exists, I do suspect it IS over diagnosed at the moment.
Point 2 But I've never been able to fit myself in with other people with aspergers, and have never had any difficulties with social interaction in my adult life that I've perceived. If I've just learned coping strategies, I'm blind to them to such a degree that the skills I'd supposedly be poor at, feel innate.
My gender issues on the other hand, are very real and that's a description I do feel applies to me very accurately.
Point 1 From my experience AS isn't over diagnosed, its just that its recognised more as the experts become more able to put a label on people. Also it appears that there are more older people being diagnosed than there used to, a sort of retrospective diagnosis. My dad who passed on 12 years ago was undoubtedly autistic but of course it wasn't recognised then. As with all aspies, we become experts in our special interests.
Point 2 You are who you feel yourself to be, if it doesn't fit you, then its not you. Easy peasey really, if you are happy with who you are, regardless of any label someone pinned to you, then thats all you can ever wish for. There are lots of people who aren't happy with who they are, but of course, some things just aren't negotiable. It took me a llloooongg time to get that one sorted out in me ;D
Quote from: Owllady on September 09, 2008, 04:19:56 PM
Can MTF-transsexual woman be a little bit autistic. When I was younger it was one reason that I did not get treament. Is it impossible to be an autistic MTF?
I'm quite certain it's very possible.
And I could never get that spinning lady to go counterclockwise. Even with my right eye, she still goes clockwise. A couple times after much staring and focus I got her to go counterclockwise but it always switches itself back. According to them then I must be very right-brained because I'm a left handed artist. Sigh, that doesn't make me illogical though.
SilverFang
i tried that dancer test, and i cannot get the dancer to go clockwise no matter how hard i try. it's frustrating me. i only see her going counter clockwise. i do have asperger's. i think i'll just give up before i start bashing my head off the table.