McCain and Palin Are Trying to Take Political Lying to the Next Dimension
By Robert Parry, Consortium News. Posted September 15, 2008.
McCain and Palin reach a new level of campaign dishonesty as they tell lies about their records and their opponent. But will they pay a price?
http://www.alternet.org/election08/98764/?page=entire (http://www.alternet.org/election08/98764/?page=entire)
Despite all the chatter about how "historic" Campaign 2008 has been, it is the McCain-Palin ticket that it is truly testing the limits, not of race or gender politics, but whether the United States is ready to enter into a new dimension of political lying.
Until two weeks ago, it would have been hard to believe that any political figure would have had the audacity to step into the national spotlight by telling the bald-faced lies that Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin has. Yet, many Americans have embraced her enthusiastically and don't want to hear anything negative about her.
its i dont think they are trying to take lying to the next dimension . but more like it is takeing lying to the next
dimension. and so far half the stuff i seen so far . its pretty much clear and so open . its just very frusterating. i gues thats why
i feel more indapendedet more then anything now a days ::) ::)
The voters rather watch a soap opera than think about the issues. Fantasy does not require serious thinking, and marketing has convinced the public that thinking is not happiness.
"putting lipstick on a pig."
... Ah...
Kudos if that was actually said.
Quote from: lisagurl on September 15, 2008, 09:34:54 AM
The voters rather watch a soap opera than think about the issues. Fantasy does not require serious thinking, and marketing has convinced the public that thinking is not happiness.
i agree with you on this lisa . and its a shame to see it happen. :( hopefuly it will change again for the better
The funny thing is that Obama's getting the same thing that haunted Hillary's early
primary campaign, flash over substance for the barely vetted "new guy"
(tm) and momentum campaigning. She's taken Obama's role, except she seems to be
a more aggressive campaigner than him, ultimate irony that the shiny democrat penny
gets upstage another one...
I'll say it again, the democrats gaffed heavily when they choose Obama.
He's not an aggressive enough campaigner for a presidential race.
He doesn't connect well with middle america and that will come to bite him and
the party HARD.
The only thing that may save Obama is the US economy going further down the tube.
And... Considering people are still ready to vote republican considering the mess they've
created, I'm not even sure that would be enough!
But rellying on a total economic meltdown to get elected is kind of lame for someone who thought
he was such a hot stuff.
Profanity removed and other words substituted. -- Nichole
I guess people prefer a fairy tale that comforts them, rather than facts that burn.
The bigger problem is that people aren't qualified to choose the president in the first place.
QuoteAnd... Considering people are still ready to vote republican considering the mess they've
created, I'm not even sure that would be enough!
I take you had a bad day. I am not even going to look. We have been through this many times in the past. Part of it is natural adjustment, part is fear which this administration likes as a tool, and part is lack of ethical morals and control which the gate keepers seem to be in bed with the greedy. Still the media has a responsibility to prioritize things by importance not by entertainment value. But then the paying public wants entertainment and not serious reporting. The paying public has very little self understanding as to what life is about they rather be told by marketing. The economy and money are only as good as one believes. Happiness is another story.
The "gatekeepers," if you are talking about the Washington Press Corp and the orgs they work for, ARE "the greedy." If not for money, then status and reputation & power. They know the tropes and they know absolutely what they have been doing.
I don't expect a change in reportage from the major players, then they will hail the return of "Maverick" as if James Garner were still 25.
Nichole
As for Obama "being out-of-touch with the middle-class." I suppose that depends on the "middle-class" we are talking about. If that means the "middle-class" that are losing their homes or selling them for 50% of what they paid for them, then prolly he's not as much out of touch as McCain and his nine mansions are.
OTH, if we are talking the "white middle class" then I would presume he's been out of their touch to a great extent since before his birth. I hate to say it, but I suspect many Americans don't really want to vote for a "black man" and will find whatever reasons they are given not to do so. *sigh*
A bridge too far? I really hope not. I really hope not. Because they have already had eight years of corruption of both the "market" and the constitution. Another four will devastate the country and prolly consolidate the effort to make "conservatism" permanent as an economic system in this country and forever silence any opposition by making things so precarious and edgy that what follows will probably look very much like the "great American paradigm:" Rome.
This is the end of the triumvirate and the ascension of the Julians.
N~
Quote from: Nichole on September 15, 2008, 05:37:19 PM
I hate to say it, but I suspect many Americans don't really want to vote for a "black man" and will find whatever reasons they are given not to do so. *sigh*
N~
I have been saying this same thing since Obama become the democratic nominee for president. This country has always had an undercurrent of racism no matter how much certain people deny it. They are going to let that racist attitude destroy this country and then they will whine and moan once it happens.
When it comes to Obama and Biden you can say dumb and dumber Joe Biden is a gift that keeps on giving. :laugh:
QuoteThe "gatekeepers," if you are talking about the Washington Press Corp and the orgs they work for, ARE "the greedy."
Then there are the accounting firms, the leaders of the stock exchange, the Federal District Attorneys, The Attorney Generals Office, The Inspector General, The General Accounting Office, The Law makers themselves, The other Federal departments that have political appointed leaders. Fund raising is rewarded by a high paying and powerful Federal jobs, no experience necessary the the willingness to obey commands.
Couldn't agree with you more. And the more you lie, perform criminal activities (The Lincoln Savings and Loan) and generally act like the good ole white boy who always is on the side of the "poor put upon middle-class" in order to get and maintain nine mansions and you cultivate the press so that rather than commeon criminal they call you Maverick ... well, let's just say you do good!!
USA is a criminal enterprise. No doubt about it. I suspect even Alexander Hamilton never had dreams that would encompass whta we got here today.
N~
QuoteWhether the United States is ready to enter into a new dimension of political lying.
You mean, if the United States is ready to enter into a new dimension of Empire, whereby the corrupt authorities strip away our liberties and rights, and shred the constitution in the name of preserving "freedom" and "democracy." Seriously, if McCain/Palin win it will be the end of women's rights (abortion will become illegal). We will lose all hope of gaining equality (especially for LTBG individuals). There will be an increase in war (with Iran, N. Korea, perhaps Russia even). Funding for nearly all domestic issues will be slashed to provide for the military-industrial complex, as we turn from a democratic republic into a warmongering empire hellbent on "saving" the rest of the world from itself. Feel free to insert your own nightmarish scenarios as well.
I really hope this country wakes up and chooses Obama/Biden, because at least then there's a chance of fixing the problems we're in now. If McCain/Palin win, get ready to hold onto your [expletive] hats!
Quote from: Nichole on September 15, 2008, 05:37:19 PM
Another four will devastate the country and prolly consolidate the effort to make "conservatism" permanent as an economic system in this country and forever silence any opposition by making things so precarious and edgy that what follows will probably look very much like the "great American paradigm:" Rome.
This is the end of the triumvirate and the ascension of the Julians.
N~
Exactly. The end of democracy and the beginning of dictatorship.
Jenn
Quote from: fae_reborn on September 15, 2008, 09:21:21 PM
Exactly. The end of democracy and the beginning of dictatorship.
Jenn
Hmmmm, I thought any semblance of democracy ended a few years ago... and was replaced by corporate fascism. Certainly, if mcsame/palin get elected, things will get even worse than they already are.
Z
Things are going to get worse regardless of who wins the election. Obama can't fix the damage done through 8 years of cronyism, warfare, borrowing, credit expansion, and curtailment of human liberty. The economic effects we're seeing now are just the beginning. If Obama thinks he's the shining knight who's going to ride in and clean up this mess, he's in for a shock. He's just the sap who'll be left holding the bag when we hit the Greatest Depression.
All he can do is to let the disease run it's course - but it looks like he favors bleeding the patient. Of course, death by Obama is still better than death by McCain - being beaten until we get over it (or die), since it's all in our heads.
Quote from: Zythyra on September 15, 2008, 10:13:18 PM
Hmmmm, I thought any semblance of democracy ended a few years ago... and was replaced by corporate fascism.
It did...and was, it just hasn't become as visible to everyone yet.
Quote from: Nephie on September 15, 2008, 10:22:25 PM
Things are going to get worse regardless of who wins the election. Obama can't fix the damage done through 8 years of cronyism, warfare, borrowing, credit expansion, and curtailment of human liberty. The economic effects we're seeing now are just the beginning. If Obama thinks he's the shining knight who's going to ride in and clean up this mess, he's in for a shock. He's just the sap who'll be left holding the bag when we hit the Greatest Depression.
All he can do is to let the disease run it's course - but it looks like he favors bleeding the patient. Of course, death by Obama is still better than death by McCain - being beaten until we get over it (or die), since it's all in our heads.
Obama won't fix the problems, but he'll try, and that's better than nothing. With Obama, we might not slide as fast into that Depression as we would with McCain.
Jenn
Actually, we need to have the depression as soon and sharp as possible. Dragging it out just makes it worse in the long run. I realize this is a (very small) minority viewpoint, though.
Posted on: September 15, 2008, 11:47:11 PM
Anyway, yeah... the Republicans have sunk to an all-time low with this campaign. It inspired me to a bit of humor:
QuoteDisgrace - the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Pack of Lies. Its eight-year mission: To abhor strange new worlds. To stamp out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go where Bush the Son has gone before.
Quote from: Nephie on September 15, 2008, 11:02:23 PM
Actually, we need to have the depression as soon and sharp as possible. Dragging it out just makes it worse in the long run. I realize this is a (very small) minority viewpoint, though.
Posted on: September 15, 2008, 11:47:11 PM
Anyway, yeah... the Republicans have sunk to an all-time low with this campaign. It inspired me to a bit of humor:
QuoteDisgrace - the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Pack of Lies. Its eight-year mission: To abhor strange new worlds. To stamp out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go where Bush the Son has gone before.
Nephie i got to say that is way too much . just smiple way too much but i love it ;D ;D 8)
4.42 loss on the Dow today. Comparable losses on S&P and NASDAC. Lehmann entered bankruotcy, Merrill-Lynch was "bought" by Bank of America whose stock dropped afterwards and AIG dropped by about 26%. Wachovia dropped drastically as well.
I'd say some banks are about to "consolidate." Or close permanently. Investment banks are free-falling. The good side, so is oil, for the moment. Oil is under $100/barrel ($95+) for the first time since last winter but I suspect pump drops will not go below $3 where they were the last time oil was that low.
Both candidates suddenly started damning business and govt policies today and started casting blame at "The Predecessors." We shall see about Depression, but recession seems a word that definitely does apply right now.
As for democracy, USA has never been a democracy. What that has always meant here is that USA will "be safe for business," the bigger the better. As for impreial dreams we've had them at least since Aaron Burr sent Major Wilkenson on a boat down the Ohio River to steal New Spain from St. Louis to New Orleans to the Colorado foothills and in the mind before that.
By 1900 we had an Empire and the 20th century brought it to real-life. All one need do is take the persepctive of Latin America say from the Rio Grande south to Tierra del Fuego to know that. But after WWII the American Empire was a fact that everyone but those of us who got our "news" from the USA govt knew. No wonder so many Europeans, Middle Easterners and Asian citizens find us queerly moronic in our views of the world. We've been eating pablum for almost 100 years.
Actually at this point the Empire is in decline, again, much like Rome. Nothing was added post Republic until Trajan moved into Dacia around 110 CE or so, the other major attempt was during Augustus' reign when Varus went marching into Niedersachsen (or what is Niedersachsen today) and had his head handed him by Hermann and his German Confederacy in the Teutoberger Wald.
One can make the case fairly easily that USA imperial dreams dies somewhere arounf Khe Sahn in 1969 and only the final nails were removed from the raft in Iraq and Afghanistan. Most major corps will probably do pretty well. They've mined this land for about all it has to offer and will move operations elsewhere.
I suspect most Americans ideas how their children will "do better than they did" will now join those who gave theirs up the second they moved into Bed-Stuy.
Be prepared for the South-Centralizing of America. For a good look at how that looks there are a number of places in western upstate New York that will give you a pretty good idea of how that plays out in rural areas. For the rest of us we need only acquaint ourselves with some of the more burnt-over districts of most major USA cities of some size, say 1 or more million.
Jenn, I don't think you'll have to wait all that long for Peak Oil or something very like it.
Nichole
Quote from: andy6432668 on September 15, 2008, 07:24:05 PM
When it comes to Obama and Biden you can say dumb and dumber Joe Biden is a gift that keeps on giving. :laugh:
That grammatical error makes what you said humorous. Deeerrrrrrppp.
Obama's just Biden his time. He'll be Barack on top any day now.
Quote from: Nichole on September 15, 2008, 11:54:50 PM
Jenn, I don't think you'll have to wait all that long for Peak Oil or something very like it.
I know, I told you I didn't have enough time to prepare our eco-community. So what's Plan B? :laugh:
Quote from: Nephie on September 16, 2008, 02:08:06 PM
Obama's just Biden his time. He'll be Barack on top any day now.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Jenn
We made less than zero provisions for the end of cheep oil and keep telling ourselves that some 'new' economy was going to replace the old one of making things and selling them to others. Since 9-11 a collective insanity has gripped the USA that has/had everyone thinking that somehow we could replace income with debt and never have some 'due date' show up.
That's not a new situation. The US has been engaging in deficit spending for decades. Bush just accelerated the process.
Oh its not just the government, its become a problem across the board, from families to financial institutions.
Certainly you can blame society-wide greed, corruption, and shortsightedness for most of the troubles, but that's only relevant on the micro level. The big picture is simpler, and more frightening.
The policies of the Fed and the government set the tone for the rest of society - especially since the populace has lost all critical thinking skills. Look at the enormous policy push for "home ownership", and what the Fed's been doing with interest rates. They've been flooding America with "easy money". When the cash is more plentiful, risky loans don't seem so risky anymore, and everyone can have a good time. Then... OOPS! Productivity hasn't actually increased, so the new money wasn't backed by real wealth. We just had a destructive frenzy of consumption and malinvestment. Meanwhile, the state's been trading government securities to the Fed for new dollars in a grand counterfeiting scheme, and spending the money to run the bureaucracy and fund the wars in the Middle East. The amount of wealth that's being destroyed like this is just INCREDIBLE.
Things like the income tax are just for show - the biggest part of the state's income is borrowed or printed from scratch. States have been debasing the currency to pay for expenditures since time began, and it's always been a disaster. Unfortunately, the USA has got people convinced that the debasement is a GOOD thing, helping to stave off the collapse, rather than the primary cause.
Perhaps things are "just for show" and perhaps the government's debt is responsible for the debts incurred by each of us individually.
Personally I am not willing to grant myself that, or you, that sort of reprieve. Fact is that tekla is correct on this. An insanity in the goverment is mirrored by the ways we are raised and the way we "see" things. We bemoan government debt while we consume vast mortgages and spending sprees for ourselves imagining that the "right" house or the right toys will make everything all better and that "somehow" there will be a way to pay for it all.
As high as goverment debt is, individual debt is higher. Has been for decades. That that is not figured into GNP and all those "economic indicators" the Fed releases doesn't make it non-existent.
The mentality has not been there for years and years among individuals. It's a new mentality. My grandparents and even my parents would have never accrued the kind of debt that I really just shrug at. I'd be willing to bet that you are in exactly the same frame of mind. But, maybe not.
Money = debt. It was an idea first "floated" by marine insurers in Genoa and Venice a thousand years ago. It was made palpable by the organization of the Bank of England three hundred or so years ago. Money is always made of nothing. Our willingness to believe in it is what gives it any credence at all. It has no "value" in and of itself.
Harry Houdini should have debunked that concept as well as debunking seances, rapping on tables and magical illusions. Now we all seem to buy that something can and is created from nothing at all.
Nichole
There's nothing wrong with governments having debt, if its to pay
for infrastructures, investments, etc.
Buying a bridge cash would be really dumb, like a house.
Also, by using debt, the government can leverage its current
wealth in the expectation of future wealth derived from the
operation, use of the item.
Like someone building a new plant for a new product
before having made a cent from it
Its when somebody borrows to pay for current programs
that debt and deficit is bad.
Also, in good times, government should try to pay back as much debt
as possible so they'll be able to spend less of their shrinking
tax revenues on
debt repayments when the economy's bad (making this money
available for targeted relief without the need to borrow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Samuelson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Samuelson)
Debt used correctly is not a bad thing. But, as I was taught, the item ought to outlast the debt and perhaps even contribute to paying it off. So, if I buy a suit to get a job on credit, and I get that job, then that's OK, and the suit better last longer then the payments do. But, if you are buying a dinner on credit, your paying off that dinner long after you've eaten it, so that's bad.
Governments using money for capital improvements can be good. Using it to bail out a company that is going belly up anyway is more than likely a bad idea.
I'm not saying that individual debts don't matter - I'm saying that the American attitude toward borrowing, spending, and consumption has been fostered by a policy of easy money. It's easier for people to be profligate with money when the dollars are easier to come by, not realizing that the quantity increase isn't backed by an increase in savings. Wealth gets siphoned off by the people who get the new dollars first, prices increase, and people who are the last to see the influx of dollars get stuck holding the bag. It's theft - the exact reason that counterfeiting is condemned, as is borrowing without intent to repay. Yet, we have let our elected officials do this for nearly a century, and concocted economic fairy tales to justify it.
Posted on: September 17, 2008, 02:27:29 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Say's_law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Say's_law)
If I was drunk off my ass, driving at 120 MPH and hit a pothole that rips off my wheel and flattens the tire while rolling the car, I could, technically, say - "oh the crash was due to tire failure." But somehow that explanation is not the exact story.
Simple magic bullet answers to very complex problems are not going to solve anything. These problems are long-term (75% of the debt is from Reagan, Bush I and Bush II, so its been going on for a while now, since 1980 at least), systemic (the much vaunted 'consumer economy' followed by 'the information economy' never replaced the real economy, based on manufacturing) and its going to be very hard to turn around.
Peek Oil aside, the era of cheep energy is gone and it ain't coming back. Yet, we have not attempted to retool our standard of living, or our suburban sprawl culture. The US standard of living can not be sustained in an era of expensive energy. In an attempt to sustain it, debt both on the part of government as well as individuals was run up to record levels.
As James Kunsler said:
All the debt run up by all parties -- home-owners, credit-card holders, business, banks, hedge funds, government -- is not being paid back reliably, and all the leveraged arrangements that depend on it being paid back are coming apart. Thus, capital disappears. The wealth of a nation disappears. All that remains is the pretense that we are still a wealthy society
And that pretense is even slipping away.
QuoteAnd that pretense is even slipping away.
As a country we can not import more value than we export as we have doing for many years. The math tells me that the country is bankrupt and we have been living on pure beliefs. People are now demanding objective evidence, that is not to be found in the fantasy.
The main problem is leverage based on future wealth, that's the main issue.
Leverage enables people to buy things based on their capital base
and future revenue stream, capital creates more capital.
That's sound economics if done properly. When its reasonable, say 6-7 times,
the capital base + current value of all revenue streams,
that's fine, it enables liquidity for investment without
having to sell assets.
In countries with little liquidity, or a dismal financial system, its almost
impossible to get a loan to buy anything. The Ukraine has been like that
until recently. A friend had a Condo worth 90K, paid entirely,
but couldn't get any credit for anything, she couldn't even use
the money in her Condo as collateral, she was sitting on money
and this money could not be reused in the economy or used
as a way to buy another house or just to improve this one!
The problem is that banks in the US allowed leverages of 20-100 times
the capital base the person, which is NOT sustainable long term. It basically
printed money by giving credit to people who could not possibly repay it
unless the housing sector continued growing at 10% a year forever
(same thing with the dot com era).
That's just crazy economics and
EVERYBODY KNEW IT. That's what angers me, the tacit wink wink
mentality where everybody lines their pockets as fast as possible
because they know that once the crap hits the fan, they're not
the ones who are going to be hit worse.;
This was totally predicatable
a meltdown. The main responsible for this is Greenspan. He created two
of the worse bubbles since the depression and then bailed out. Bernanke
is now left to hold the broken vessel together...
But, I also blame the stupid people who bought those houses with
no money, and very bad terms. They shouldn't even be allowed
to touch credit since they're basically too stupid to read properly,
do the simple math and assess risk.
Keira, when was the last time you read a countrywide mortgage document or any other lease agreement or mortgage agreement or loan agreement and understood it.
As part of "de-regulation" the corportations have been allowed to write such documents that even attorneys are left lost by them.
You distaste for the "common man" isn't the problem here, your understanding of all that has been going on in USA IS the problem. I defy you to find one of those documents yourself and understand it.
It's not a matter of stupidity of the "common person" but fear not. At this point most of those people will never own squat again. They are well and truly screwed.
Nichole
QuoteBut, I also blame the stupid people who bought those houses with
no money, and very bad terms. They shouldn't even be allowed
to touch credit since they're basically too stupid to read properly,
do the simple math and assess risk.
True, they also had nothing to lose since they started with nothing.
The bigger problem all those people that are the future of this country, have no competitive skills to insure growth in the economy. They barely can write a letter and can not do math even with a calculator. 75% of the engineering students in this country are from abroad. The schools have backed off teaching science because the objective training questions religion. There are more women in college than men. Everyone wants to market and no one wants to build.
Posted on: September 17, 2008, 08:11:35 PM
QuoteI defy you to find one of those documents yourself and understand it.
I have owned 3 house and built two. I have had construction loans and contracts as well as mortgages and refinance. I have always gone with fixed interest and can read and understand the contracts as well as the credit card contracts that are 20 pages or so. They are simple nothing is in your favor. Do not forget the rule of 78 in car loans. If you do not understand something it is simple do not sign. If you need to hire a lawyer to explain it to you chalk it up to your poor education and pay them. Ignorance is not an excuse.
Quote from: tekla on September 17, 2008, 03:36:48 PMIf I was drunk off my ass, driving at 120 MPH and hit a pothole that rips off my wheel and flattens the tire while rolling the car, I could, technically, say - "oh the crash was due to tire failure." But somehow that explanation is not the exact story.
That's true as far as it goes, but we're talking about a situation where a climate of
moral hazard was fostered as a matter of policy. Many people made stupid decisions with money, but those so unqualified wouldn't have had easy access to that money without the state's intervention.
It's more like if a known alcoholic and drunk driver was OK'd for a loan to buy booze and a new car.
Even if there were fine print to a doc (there are 20 pages of terms for software licenses but reads that),
you should get as much information as you can by asking pointed questions to those that loan you.
And, if you've got little no proof of income at all,
and someone loans you 300K,
well any sane person would think that there's a catch somewhere...
There are sad cases of people who where in fact defrauded by lenders
but I will contend that there's even more greedy stupid people
who just took the cash and lived for the golden moment
(like the dot commers...
I was one of those dotcommers, and believe, I paid for my stupidity, lost 30K in money,
lost my job and had to move country inside 10 days )
Ignorance was no excuse for me, its no excuse for anyone.
Now, I think I read pretty well. I even know a bit of law. I studied contracts. I work from time to time for lawyers. And I read these contracts and I don't get it. So, I hire a lawyer. The first step in buying a house, is to get a contract lawyer. I bought two in my life, and both times I had a lawyer go though it line by line, and the second time I went back to the seller four times and had them change the language in the contract.
The main problem is leverage based on future wealth, that's the main issue.
Leverage enables people to buy things based on their capital base
and future revenue stream, capital creates more capital.
That's sound economics if done properly.
However we are not talking about sound economics. We are talking about Alice in Wonderland stuff. Moreover, a massive liquidation of present wealth - which is what we are talking about here - is not going to create future wealth.
which is NOT sustainable long term. It basically
printed money by giving credit to people who could not possibly repay it
In fact, they printed the money and gave it out to their pals, at Enron, in the UAE and Saudi Arabia, and defense contractors. They had no intention of repaying it, they were always going to keep it.
As for the housing deal, you're right in that loan were written for people to buy houses that they could not afford, however, the reason they could not afford them had more to do with property flipping than income. In essence, as well as in reality, few houses sold since 1995 were actually worth what people were paying for them. They were overvalued. They were sold, with a lot of lies, to people who didn't know any better. That might be the fault of the buyer, but the sellers - the banks, the real estate agents, the finance companies all - ALL - knew better.
But, as you so obviouly do not know, is only the 'subprime' crisis, but we are in a full fledged prime morgauge crisis also. People who do work, work hard, make good money and all that who now find themselves falling further and further behind.
Buying a house 30 miles from work, 10 years ago, had a commuting cost that has risen by triple digits and are in a squeeze. A friend of mine, is in that deal. When he bought the house it cost about $10 a week to drive the BMW (which get pretty good gas miles) it now cost him $50 a week and he has had no increase in his salary to compensate for a difference from $40 to $200 a month. So, does he eat less, or miss a payment on the house?
I have family, my GFs family. Hard working UAW type guys who have spent their life making damn good cars. Pi, made F150 trucks for Ford. They are good trucks. But now???? Line shut down. May not reopen. 30 years working for FORD, ->-bleeped-<- FORD was about as American as America ever got, how could he lose a job at FORD for ->-bleeped-<-s sake? What's he to do?
And that is the people I worry about, and that you don't see. The ones who worked hard, who did have good jobs, who did those jobs well, who tried to be responsible, and still it turned out that a bunch of morons in Grosse Point, who did not do their jobs well, who did not work hard, wasted it all for them.
I worry about the American worker, on a very real scale, and on a very real level. People who did do the right thing and are about to (if not already getting) screwed to the wall for it, and all they get for all the hard work is some PR bit of ->-bleeped-<- from some PR hack writing for a presidential candidate who does not know how many houses he owns, thinks that 5 million is rich, and has a wife who wore a dress that cost $200,000 to the convention.
Look at the pickups driving down the street 95% of them are not carrying anything. They are play toys sold only by marketing an image. Most people have bought the market BS and spend money and their security on toys and other unneeded consumer items.
Instead of demanding and participating in local government to improve things they move 30 miles away and spend 2 hours a day in the play toy vehicle, not very smart use of their resources.
While most of the people I know who drive are either hippies in some Volvo beater, or a Subaru, or people have their second/third/fourth childhood and running around in sports cars, the ones I know who drive pickup trucks have working pickups. They are not show toys, they are commercial and used for hauling stuff around. I see such show trucks, but I don't know those people.
And that's city stuff, when I lived in Iowa, all the pickups were used pickups, I mean, those trucks were working farm trucks.
Then how do you compare the millions of new trucks each year with the only thousands of farms? Or from Texas to the Carolina's new trucks pulling out of subdivisions in the morning without a scratch in the bed. Then the wives have a 4-wheel-drive in areas that never see snow and the wheels never been on dirt.
I would imagine he compares it to pulling out of subdivisions and to pulling out of farm roads and when they pull out of the subdivisions on whether those trucks go to work-sites or parking garages and lots. But that would simply be a guess, Lisa.
Nichole
According to the Department of Agriculture, there were 2,076,000 farm in the United States in 2007. Adding in construction work, other crafts based work, delivery stuff, that a lot of working trucks.
As for subdivisions, I'll have to take your word for that, I'm no where near them ever.
In my area there are many doctors and lawyers and everyone of them have a pickup that never even had the tailgate lowered.
There is no way all the trucks sold are used on farms,
unless farmers buy one a year... I think most farmer's can't
afford that.
Marketing don't force people to consume.
It finds what people dream about and cater to that.
They also try to differentiate their product from the
other guy producing thingamabob's. Its about competition.
People have self-control, they can choose not to buy a SUV
and a flat screen 40 incher.
I know plenty of people who
can barely feed their children yet got a new SUV and a car
in the driveway. Don't tell me there was no other solution!
People don't want to be thrifty, its not the "american way"...
American's live way way way beyond their means; they use
twice as much credit as the next highest country.
I lived in San-Francisco and commuted to Freemont (3 hours commute a day);
I didn't own a car, had a 27 inch TV, couldn't afford a house
in San-Francisco but I rented, I didn't want to have to live in the central valley
and pay 2K a month in mortgage for a small shack just so I'd have my own little
crap castle. I was paid well, so these where my choices.
Its all about priorities and choices.
Buying a house is a choice, and often its not the most sensible choice.
Saving you're own money is always a better investment than
putting it in real estate.
Its simple math, real estate grows long term about 4%, which is wiped out by interests
payments. Some of the money is recovered through taxation advantages, so all in all,
it comes out about even. A single family house is not an investment,
its a place to live in. The last
5 years have made people forget about this.
Investing wisely in blue chip stocks (warren buffet style) gives an a return of 7% long term
(last 200 years average, even counting the depression years!!)
If people were in the habit of saving (they are not), this would be the best deal.
A run-up price like we've seen screws up people and they get greedy.
A house is the largest single investment for average American families. So any downturn creates widespread wealth displacement.
But, back to the lying.
The biggest lie, one that the media will not touch, is that McCain is fit to be president. He is old, and age has a price. But no one will talk about it. Moreover, the military medical records have never been released, so we don't know about the POW trauma, and it must have been traumatic. Of late he has seemed increasingly out of it, memory slips, stupid statements - its long been rumored that he's not quite all there. Really, is that our best choice?
Then, of course is lie two, that somehow in some other universe, Sara is qualified to replace him.
Look at this way, If Sara is qualified to replace him, what does that make him?
Quote from: lisagurl on September 18, 2008, 10:38:50 AM
Look at the pickups driving down the street 95% of them are not carrying anything. They are play toys sold only by marketing an image. Most people have bought the market BS and spend money and their security on toys and other unneeded consumer items.
Instead of demanding and participating in local government to improve things they move 30 miles away and spend 2 hours a day in the play toy vehicle, not very smart use of their resources.
so very very true lisa . but it ant only the trucks . it is the cars too. where iam liveing at now you can see about 2 to 4 Vehicles that are noting but a
play toy and thats in a mile Stretch mind you . and it ant just the parents . its the kids too that have these Vehicles :icon_rolleyes:
Quote from: lisagurl on September 18, 2008, 03:56:42 PM
Look at this way, If Sara is qualified to replace him, what does that make him?
A corpse.