Warning - Bad case of Nero Behaving Badly ahead
Regardless of the flack I'm going to get for this, this needs to be examined.
When I say androgynes and cissexual privilege, clearly I'm not speaking of androgynes who transgress gender boundaries in an outwardly significant way.
Obviously androgynes who go about with visible tits and beards or who have taken medical steps to alter their bodies to a more gender neutral state are not recipients of cissexual privilege.
Who is a recipient of cissexual privilege?
Androgynes who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Androgynes who wax poetic all day long about the wonders of androgyny and the phenomenon of being born of neither or mixed gender,
androgynes who are 'above' such 'puerile' notions as gender, bask in their self proclaimed uniqueness
and yet balk at the thought of allowing their gender any significant outward expression in their everyday lives.
Androgynes who speak with 'authority' on androgyne issues whilst enjoying cissexual and not to mention male privilege in their presentation as the average heterosexual male.
Androgynes so fortunate as to have been born into bodies they find comfortable who s->-bleeped-<- at the attempts of the less fortunate to alter themselves for mere survival.
Androgynes who are not 'out' except to those they preach the gospel of androgyne to,
androgynes for whom their gender is a mere habit to be enjoyed on off days,
androgynes either too shallow or cowardly to live what they preach,
to these individuals I say:
Do not attempt to speak for us to whom our gender is a part of ourselves that will not and cannot be denied, or set aside in favor of cissexual and heterosexual privilege, or taken out for a Sunday drive when we get the urge, for us to whom our gender is a life and death matter.
Shut up until you live it and in the mean time, get another hobby.
If I understood correctly you speak of those who don't appear androgyne on the outside, yeah? ???
Quote from: Jörgen on October 18, 2008, 08:53:08 AM
If I understood correctly you speak of those who don't appear androgyne on the outside, yeah? ???
Yes and who aren't 'out' in their everyday lives. I'm speaking of those for whom androgyne is a net hobby.
Must be nice for those who have that option.
About the preaching, I thought you meant as in public, not on the net. Oops, my bad. ;D
What if your self-perception changes so much, you can't physically be whatever you are feeling like on any given day so you decide you'll stay as you are?
(Hope that made sense.)
Quote from: Jörgen on October 18, 2008, 09:31:21 AM
About the preaching, I thought you meant as in public, not on the net. Oops, my bad. ;D
What if your self-perception changes so much, you can't physically be whatever you are feeling like on any given day so you decide you'll stay as you are?
(Hope that made sense.)
I'm addressing more the androgynes who wax poetic and preach about it but refuse to let it infringe on their everyday lives, who aren't even out to anyone in RL, real time, who wouldn't give up their cissexual, heterosexual male privilege for anything.
Isn't that like being prejudiced against a certain type of androgyne? ;D
Depends on what they preach too. :)
I think this maybe a subtle dig at me.
well i do believe there is cisgender privilege i don't think its right to say net androgynes are privileged. they are expressing themselves online because they fear to express themselves in public. there is suffering there, not privilege.
We all benefit from some form of privilege, be we women, men, androgynes, or whatever. Race, class, sex, etc all play a part in addition to our gender identities.
Zythyra
Well as a white, male bodies individual with a good solid lower middle class education (though a working class background) I should be given the world on a plate with brown sauce...(well, more likely houmous for the privileged).
A little odd then that I can't keep even the lowest paid and menial jobs for very long, or that I am turned away from employment agencies without a word, and scowled away from many a fancy club...must be my face.
***
I do have a few advantages though. Very few people point at me as I walk down the street, I do not need to face stares to be myself.
I wouldn't say I am a 'sunday androgyne' though. It is true I have not told anybody...I have not forced through a neutral passport...I do not bore those around me with gender neutral pronouns and I do not make people call me some stupid name like AdamEve. This is because I am a mild, easy going person and want I want more than anything else is a personal connection...To do these obstructive things would get in the way of that possible connection. It would isolate me. I'm an androgyne, not a hermit.
I wouldn't even call it hiding, just a sense of perspective and proportion. I do find receiving letters to 'Mr' a bit irritating, I feel very trapped and confused by Gender: M/F parts of job application forms and I do always tick M. Not because I am a coward, not because I am shallow, not because it doesn't hurt - but because there
are more important things. And being able to afford my rent is one of them.
I do ask my friends and colleagues not to call me 'Mr Stevens' but by my first name. If someone persists after a few reminders, I know they are a wanker. If someone calls me that at an interview, I don't mention it, because I don't want the interviewer to remember me as the nutter who preached obscure corners of gender politics at them... I want that job.
Today I had the first day at my new job. In a shop selling loose tea, teapots and some attractively designed cups, dinner services and stuff. I had an androgyne day...
It included the manly jobs, crawling around attic space warehouses, carrying dusty boxes full of heavy china; feminine jobs, helping a lady my age pick a dinner service for her first ever dinner party, swapping recipes and giggling at kitchen disasters; and jobs that would count as purely neutral, being commanded to 'experience' all the loose tea without drinking it...which involved sniffing in the leaves and feeling it - that sort of tactile curiosity that seems to be inherently genderless.
Now, the boss was watching me throughout today, and I think my actions confused her...she was confused when i turned up with my dark jeans and purple boots but as I left I reckon she had no idea what to make of me....If my experience at the pub was anything to go by then they might be talking about me. In the pub, it was reported to me that the regulars in the pub having a sweepstake on my general sexuality and gender...I remember one of the more frequent bets being that I was actually a woman trying to be a man. :laugh: (Something they knew about because two FTMs were semi-regular).
None of these things are, I think, the actions of a hobby androgyne. But an androgyne who wants to be a part of the society they were born in. A sensible androgyne. A not irritating crazy-sod androgyne.
QuoteShut up until you live it and in the mean time, get another hobby.
I also reckon I live my life as an androgyne more openly than you live yours as a man.
Oh? I'm out to everyone I know. I just haven't had the fortune due to illness and addiction to medically alter myself as of yet.
I've gone by a male name and dressed in male mode as long as I can remember. The only 'girly' part of my presentation is a little mascara which is a personal preference.
I was wrong then. Sorry.
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 18, 2008, 02:29:20 PM
I was wrong then. Sorry.
You were wrong because you've never bothered to ask. You were also wrong that this is a dig at you. This is something I've noticed by others all over the net and irks me.
QuoteThis is something I've noticed by others all over the net and irks me.
Examples? :o
I like their theories. :)
indeed, this so called 'Cissexual Privilege' is one of the hardest things in this whole androgyne thing.
women do not trust you, because with this privalege you have percieved power over them. Any casual chat could be a seduction, and any silly fun and games a front for a dark soul. Talk about 'girly things' and some are prepared to run away blowing a whistle.
on the other hand you have men, this privilege presumes that men have power, as a result men constantly compete to see who has the most of it. Avoid this competition through naivity or lack of interest and men on the whole can't be bothered with you. Talk about 'girly things' and some are prepared to run away blowing a whistle.
this'd leave me isolated and alone. And often does.
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 18, 2008, 06:43:47 PM
indeed, this so called 'Cissexual Privilege' is one of the hardest things in this whole androgyne thing.
women do not trust you, because with this privalege you have percieved power over them. Any casual chat could be a seduction, and any silly fun and games a front for a dark soul. Talk about 'girly things' and some are prepared to run away blowing a whistle.
on the other hand you have men, this privilege presumes that men have power, as a result men constantly compete to see who has the most of it. Avoid this competition through naivity or lack of interest and men on the whole can't be bothered with you. Talk about 'girly things' and some are prepared to run away blowing a whistle.
this'd leave me isolated and alone. And often does.
Then why do you embrace it?
i don't.
Posted on: October 18, 2008, 06:49:08 pm
if you were in the same situation, what would you do?
Pretty much same as I'm doing now. I venture to say I actually come off more androgyne in my daily life than most real androgynes.
I am someone with a very female look who goes about with a man's name and whose behaviour is so contrary to their appearance that within less than a hour of chatting with me, most strangers start relating to me as and even commenting on the fact 'I'm like a man' despite a very female appearance and body.
and how is that different from what i do? or what most people do?
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 18, 2008, 07:01:48 PM
and how is that different from what i do? or what most people do?
You hide behind cissexual privilege. You do not present in RL or even in your videos (cept the occasional display of sitting in a dress like a linebacker) as anything other than a typical male. You dress male, you look male, you behave male. You wish to be seen as one thing on the net and another in real time.
In real time you present as a typical albeit quirky hetero man. You wouldn't part with your cissexual, heterosexual male privilege for anything, not even your own identity.
Wow, Nero, you must have a good social life and live in a really open and accepting community.
Wasn't envy one of the seven sins? ::)
Quote from: Jörgen on October 18, 2008, 07:10:28 PM
Wow, Nero, you must have a good social life and live in a really open and accepting community.
Wasn't envy one of the seven sins? ::)
Actually because of the way I am, women snub me. I am not accepted at all by women despite my appearance.
Almost all of my friends are male and it is not by choice.
I meant the strangers who comment on your masculinity. :)
It is not mandatory for an androgyne to look gender-neutral though, is it? :-\
And if something is in favour of your bio-gender, why not use it? :-X
Quote from: Nero on October 18, 2008, 07:08:51 PM
You dress male, you look male, you behave male.
That's how I dress, look and behave. No hiding there.
True, in the vids I do but on my male side a bit more, because that sort of public speaking is a male type of thing, I talk very like my dad, it's probably my most male bit, and it's a part of me.
What you expecting me to do, put on a camp act? Flounce around squealing 'ooo Mary'? Wear tshirts far too tight for me in an attempt to show off curves?? Cos that's not me.
I am not hiding behind anything, especially not this cissexual, heterosexual male privilege your so jealous of... when I do chat rooms, or mainstream forums, or even when I've sent things to publishers - I've done it all under a female name, just to be able to ditch your poxy privilege. Then I get fed up because I can't show them pictures of me, introduce them to the androgyne videos...if i were published under my real name, i wouldn't be able to tell them, even on writing sites.
It's unusual that before we argued you were pestering me and saying that i didn't have a male side...now your arguing the other way.
Quote from: Jörgen on October 18, 2008, 07:20:06 PM
I meant the strangers who comment on your masculinity. :)
It is not mandatory for an androgyne to look gender-neutral though, is it? :-\
And if something is in favour of your bio-gender, why not use it? :-X
I really don't know why they do comment but I could be sporting cleavage and still get called a man. :P
And cissexual privilege is fine if one admits to merely talking the talk and not walking the walk.
Posted on: October 18, 2008, 08:23:26 pm
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 18, 2008, 07:23:06 PM
Quote from: Nero on October 18, 2008, 07:08:51 PM
You dress male, you look male, you behave male.
That's how I dress, look and behave. No hiding there.
True, in the vids I do but on my male side a bit more, because that sort of public speaking is a male type of thing, I talk very like my dad, it's probably my most male bit, and it's a part of me.
What you expecting me to do, put on a camp act? Flounce around squealing 'ooo Mary'? Wear tshirts far too tight for me in an attempt to show off curves?? Cos that's not me.
I am not hiding behind anything, especially not this cissexual, heterosexual male privilege your so jealous of... when I do chat rooms, or mainstream forums, or even when I've sent things to publishers - I've done it all under a female name, just to be able to ditch your poxy privilege. Then I get fed up because I can't show them pictures of me, introduce them to the androgyne videos...if i were published under my real name, i wouldn't be able to tell them, even on writing sites.
It's unusual that before we argued you were pestering me and saying that i didn't have a male side...now your arguing the other way.
now I'm seeing a whole other strongly male side that makes up the real you.
They still have very interesting views on the whole subject. ;D
Why does it... er... bother you so much how they live their life?
I don't think being androgyne is quite the same as being trans, anyway, so we can't really compare, since they're continuously being swayed from one side to the other, whereas when someone is trans, they know what and who they are, full stop.
I hope I made sense. ;D
And, oh, is that bed I hear, calling me? :D
Quote from: Nero on October 18, 2008, 07:26:54 PM
especially when you're posing as a female online
I do not pose, I give a female name and that is all - i never really understood why I even did it (it was this practice that tipped me off as trans in the first place). But the avoidance of your privilege is quite a good explanation. Of course now I've said about having this other, other (other, other, other) web name some people may think me creepy - another fun result of said 'privilege.' A woman doing the same would be understood - as indeed they have been (mr currer, george elliot, etc).
Quote from: Nero on October 18, 2008, 07:26:54 PM
that's because before I got to know you, I fell for your femme display (as many are prone to do, especially when you're posing as a female online). now I'm seeing a whole other unflattering and strongly male side that makes up the real you.
egads... a femme side and a male side...how very...... androgynous?
The truth is flitting around the middle, where I always claimed it to be. If you are reading my posts and first saw femme and then saw male...how am i hiding? How am I being something other than what i claim to be? What I have
always claimed to be?
And as for femme display, what femme display? You were harranging me a second ago for having no femme display.
In real life I present as the person I am, in my videos I present as the more detached, logical (ish) part of me, on this site I used to enjoy the friendly goofy sides I like, alas I can't feel relaxed to have fun on here anymore...so you're getting the irritated, angry me, and have in a few threads the last few weeks...But in real life I present as I am and as I feel, I am incapable of maintaining an act, if I were capable of it, I would contradict myself a lot less as an act would be more consistent than i am. If I could maintain an act, I wouldn't have ever needed to come to this site.
I'm sorry. I've no wish to argue with you. I'll stop now.
Eh. I would not blame anyone using their cisgender priveleges. Society in general does not understand androgynity as anything farther than a physical look. Not being one or the other will automatically give you the "freak" label. Society isn't ready to start bending the binary system. Not to mention all the questions you'd get asked and things that people are liable to say. "Why can't you just pick?" "That just makes you a girly guy, it doesn't mean you're androwhatever." "It's okay if you're a butch."
Mentality doesn't always have to translate into your physicality. Not to be anal with -ality words, but practicality is also a factor, especially when people have to make a living. And I realize we won't progress if nobody pushes the boundaries, but I'm just saying, I completely understand the position androgynes can be put in.
back open for business.
If I understand you correctly, Nero, then I'm not an adrogyne because I don't fit your definition of it. Once again, some on this board tells me how I see myself is wrong because I don't conform/adhere to someone else's definitions.
Great.
Thanks a heap.
I don't believe the definition of androgyne requires that a person must express an androgynous appearance. One can do so if they wish. Personally, I would like to express my androgyny more outwardly, re clothing, however one must also work for a living, pay the rent or mortgage, keep oneself safe from physical harm, etc. I make the compromises I must. This isn't cissexual privilege. I don't compromise how I act, and I make no pretense to act male. I make it a point to speak out against binary gender tyranny wherever possible, and do whatever I can to make this world a better place for the next generation of both binary and non binary gender persons. And it certainly isn't a hobby either. I would not have chosen something so painful as profound disconnect between physical body and mental gender awareness as a hobby.
Z
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on October 19, 2008, 01:21:40 PM
If I understand you correctly, Nero, then I'm not an adrogyne because I don't fit your definition of it. Once again, some on this board tells me how I see myself is wrong because I don't conform/adhere to someone else's definitions.
Great.
Thanks a heap.
Don't listen to me. I was being a bully.
I'm really pissed off at you Nero. What are you hoping to achieve?
By discounting androgynes that 'hide' or don't meet your androgyne 'standards' your discounting the massive amount of pain and anguish we feel just like any other transgendered person.
Who cares what we wear, or how open we are? This is personal choice based on personal circumstance.
What is wrong with getting as much privaledge as we can get?
At least we don't go trying to hide from our pain by drinking heavily or taking our anger out on others. That's more dishonest than any 'deception' on our part. You're behaving just like most non-trans people, stuck on the idea that people have to be a certain way just because they have a particular gender. You should know better. You keep acting all tough and 'manly' but you are full of it. The other guys here don't act like you do. They are protective, nurturing and encouraging, and use their strength to defend rather than attack others. Stop being a poster boy for the worst aspects of masculinity and grow up a little.
Don't be such a cock all the time. You keep making excuses but at some point you need to own it.
Personally, I don't seek any priveledge. I seek to be left alone. I'm beyond intorverted; I'm a hermit. I do not now, nor have I ever, sought any kind of priveledge over someone else because of what I am. I never chose to be born with this body. I refuse to apologize to anyone for it, and I refuse to be held accountable for it. It is what it is. I might be in my power to change it, but food, shelter, and clothing for my family is a far greater priority for me than any bodily transition I might desire.
Am I out? To those who matter most to me, yes. To the world in general, no. Why should I be? It's no one's bleeping business how I identify myself. I'm out to myself, and that's what really matters because it means I'm being honest with myself.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why this discussion took place. I was reverting back to that 11 year old schoolyard bully I can't seem to shake.
I didn't mean a word in this thread. I love all of you, I'm sorry for starting this. I didn't mean it.
Quote from: Nero on October 19, 2008, 04:16:57 PM
It doesn't take a rocket science to figure out why this discussion took place. I was reverting back to that 11 year old schoolyard bully I can't seem to shake.
I didn't mean a word in this thread. I love all of you, I'm sorry for starting this. I didn't mean it.
OK, thanks for the clarification, Nero.
You'd always been one of the more supportive people here, I was really surprised by this thread. I was going over my posts wondering if I was among those who had offended you so.
Take care, Nero.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on October 19, 2008, 04:22:11 PM
Quote from: Nero on October 19, 2008, 04:16:57 PM
It doesn't take a rocket science to figure out why this discussion took place. I was reverting back to that 11 year old schoolyard bully I can't seem to shake.
I didn't mean a word in this thread. I love all of you, I'm sorry for starting this. I didn't mean it.
OK, thanks for the clarification, Nero.
You'd always been one of the more supportive people here, I was really surprised by this thread. I was going over my posts wondering if I was among those who had offended you so.
Take care, Nero.
:embarrassed:
Quote from: Nero on October 19, 2008, 04:16:57 PM
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why this discussion took place. I was reverting back to that 11 year old schoolyard bully I can't seem to shake.
I didn't mean a word in this thread. I love all of you, I'm sorry for starting this. I didn't mean it.
Well, I think the proper punishment might be sending that 11 yr old bully to Candy Mountain >:-) >:-) >:-)
Z
hmmm.. is there alot of kinds of androgynes ?
I thought I was maybe one but I dunno anymore if there's some kind of weird standard that's more than the definition.
Quote from: Saraloop on October 19, 2008, 08:35:59 PM
hmmm.. is there alot of kinds of androgynes ?
I thought I was maybe one but I dunno anymore if there's some kind of weird standard that's more than the definition.
nah no standard. this is just a typical 'Nero behaving badly' thread.
My suggestion is that we read EVERY post in this thread before responding to it from this point on. ;) Nero's already apologized and cleared up the matter, so no one should still be confused over it. :)
Just a polite message of peace from Jaimey. :icon_flower:
*gets off soapbox*
I wrote a song for Nero:
Old King Nero
was an emotional old soul
and an emtional old soul was he
He called for his pipe
and he called for his ho
and he called for his androgynes three (the holy trinity of androgynes - Rebis, Pica and Zythra I thinks)
fiddle diddle
fiddle with his diddle
went the androgynes three ;D
Quote from: Nicky on October 20, 2008, 07:00:40 PM
and he called for his androgynes three (the holy trinity of androgynes - Rebis, Pica and Zythra I thinks)
LOL
Quotefiddle diddle
fiddle with his diddle
went the androgynes three ;D
BTW, I actually play fiddle in real life ;D
Z
I just want to thank Nero for this thread, oddly.
In challenging me, and voicing some of my own fears about myself (is this real? am i playing? am i hiding from myself?) I feel much strongerer and confidenterer. And also less didactic.
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 21, 2008, 08:54:31 AM
I just want to thank Nero for this thread, oddly.
Coming late to this, me too. The middle of the thread wasn't very nice, but despite the tone the start gave some food for thought and the more recent posts have been a nice save for the nastiness in between. Anyway.
Sure, I have cissexual privilege and male privilege. What one has to keep in mind, though, is that it's not as simple as that: all these privileges are not on/off things but instead relative and very situational. There are some contexts where there is a definite female privilege -- say, when a couple goes to see a midwife, or in a lot of feminist discourses. Male and cissexual privileges are just the most egregious ones from our point of view, and the most basic ones with regard to everyday life.
The privileges have their flip side too. My biggest issue all along has been the people who
expect me to use the oh-so-wonderful male privilege, and there have been several cases where my refusal to be 'male enough' has been a problem. Similarly, in the past year or two I've come to see cissexual privilege as a personal straitjacket, and while the thought of losing it is scary, it has also been liberating to make an attempt at not worrying about it. Just like it has been a relief to not worry about losing transsexual privilege in these forums.
The key issue here is to realise that this complex web of privileges exists -- it does, and there's not too much we can do about it -- and try to live so that the various privileges have as little effect on one's personal behaviour as possible. In other words know the big picture but be true to oneself, I guess.
Nfr
sorry to bump this one up, but...
I was the clear recipient of this privilege the other day. A lady assumed I was the manager, and that the manager was the dogsbody. There was a little racism mixed in too though, cos the manager is asian.
I have been with a woman doing some work and the person we talk to directs all their conversation to me. Funny because she was the leader. I took all my cues from her.
Both men and women have done it.
Quote from: Rebis on November 10, 2008, 11:24:30 AM
I have been with a woman doing some work and the person we talk to directs all their conversation to me. Funny because she was the leader. I took all my cues from her.
Both men and women have done it.
Indeed. I am somewhat ashamed to say that I have pulled that stupid act that many girls do to keep from getting in trouble. I just acted like I didn't know I was doing something wrong.
:icon_evil_laugh: <--wrong response. >:-)
The last time I can remember being the recipient of this privilege was helping one of the other tech support agents with a tough call. She put the user on hold to explain the situation to me, then conferenced me in.
As soon as the the user heard D___ speak, the user began to read her the riot act. As soon as the user heard me speak, she changed her tone of voice entirely. Here was a woman treating another woman poorly. I even told the user that I was the call of the long hold delay because I needed D___ to explain the details of the issue to me. The user was perfectly compliant with me, D___ was certain because of my male name and voice.
It sucks. I didn't ask for this privelege. But, I certainly didn't as for D___ to be treated like garbage, either. I felt really bad for D___, because she did everything correctly and this user still just let her have. I get on the line, and suddenly everything changes.
Sheesh, some people suck.
Isn't it ironic how women can be so misogynistic and condescending toward one another? And they don't even realize it.
Quote from: Nero on November 10, 2008, 05:34:51 PM
Isn't it ironic how women can be so misogynistic and condescending toward one another? And they don't even realize it.
It seems totally bass-ackwards. I was absolutely blown away. But, that certainly seemed to be the case. D___ sure felt that way.
Quote from: Nero on November 10, 2008, 05:34:51 PM
Isn't it ironic how women can be so misogynistic and condescending toward one another? And they don't even realize it.
Oh my god. I don't like women. And that's exactly why. For most women that I have known (not all, of course), even their best friends' are enemies. I've been back stabbed and turned on and just had crazy things said about me over nothing by women. Needless to say, I am very distrustful of most women. They are vicious.
Quote from: Jaimey on November 10, 2008, 05:42:01 PM
They are vicious.
I know, that's why I like em.
Fly my pretties, fly, fly! : :icon_evil_laugh:
I dunno. While I'm sure I've received privilege in my life, I'm certain I've taken more flak for being who I am.
Quote from: 6thsomatic on November 10, 2008, 08:56:37 PM
I dunno. While I'm sure I've received privilege in my life, I'm certain I've taken more flak for being who I am.
True that.
But I have seen some added privilege for myself though. Being included as 'one of the girls' in a group of girls, being considered less-threatening when picking up my daughter from her creche, my opinion counting when it came to female fashion, my opinion counting when it came to male fashion, inducing a protective response from other men, people talking to me in my phone counselling role because they assumed I was one gender or the other, dogs that hated men did not seem to mind me, having a certain street cred amongst hippies and activists for challenging boundaries...damn I hate hippies.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on November 10, 2008, 05:31:59 PM
It sucks. I didn't ask for this privelege.
Yes. Besides being so b*dy unfair, the obvious cases also do wonders to one's self-doubt: there's always the nagging feeling that people listen to me just because they see the lack of hair on my forehead, not because they hear the arguments coming from inside that forehead.
I don't think I'd like it any better if others had that kind of privilege over me, of course, but I'm not at all sure I'd like it any less either.
Nfr
We can't use the word "bloody"?
Rebis,
verging on thread jack.
cos it gets messy.
Not if you keep it in tubs and glasses like you're supposed to.
or lap it up like any good little unicorns.
Blood drinking unicorns.
I like that sound of that (though can I make mine a tomato juice? I have too much iron in my diet as it is)
OK, it's officially gotten too gross for this old fart androgyne.
I Agree.
Tomato juice is disgusting.
Quote from: Rebis on November 11, 2008, 04:57:05 PM
We can't use the word "bloody"?
I just prefer to keep my blood inside, thank you.
Quote
verging on thread jack.
In the name of gender equality, more like a thread jill. Or thread j* for those who are rabid about being non-binary.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on November 12, 2008, 04:47:36 AM
In the name of gender equality, more like a thread jill. Or thread j* for those who are rabid about being non-binary.
Hmmmm, I like this, we could rename hir thread jillack or thread jackill ;D Now, what was the topic? ;D
Z
Quote from: Pica Pica on November 12, 2008, 03:20:23 AM
I Agree.
Tomato juice is disgusting.
I won't drink tomato juice. But I do have a recipe for rice baked in a combination of broth and tomato juice. It's actually quite good.
and that's why we won't come to your house for dinner.
Oops! That was supposed to be secret. :-X
Tomato juice is DELICIOUS!!! Weirdos.
Quote from: Jaimey on November 12, 2008, 04:08:08 PM
Tomato juice is DELICIOUS!!! Weirdos.
If tomato jucie were delicious, it wouldn't taste so bad. :P
I like it with a bit of salt and pepper. I'm not particulalry fond of it when it is spiced - as in a bloody mary.
Caesar then?
Thats the only way I'll drink tomato juice =/
Clearly we androgynes take the cake for threadjack privilege (TM) :laugh: :laugh: I wonder if our inherent abilities to change the subject is hard wired too :P
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on November 12, 2008, 08:38:16 PM
Clearly we androgynes take the cake for threadjack privilege (TM) :laugh: :laugh: I wonder if our inherent abilities to change the subject is hard wired too :P
Z
I wonder if it is related to an ability to relate things together in tenious though (il)logical ways. For me it seems that way. I shift conversation and topic readily but in my mind they link up. For example, today I was talking to someone about my new singer and I remembered he was a bit bald and it reminded me of the hair style of a character in the movie called bad boy bubby and instantly I changed to talking about the movie. All this happened in an instant - I wonder where these sudden leaps in our thought processes comes from (assuming I'm the same as others here). Maybe it is poor attention span, or maybe we are fast thinkers. Maybe in lacking a certain connection with others our brains tried to formulate it's own connections to fill the gap, like an unused process that just needs to run ???
For me the key seems to be a powerful ability for association. I think it helps in thinking up possibilities. On the inside it feels more like quick intuitive leaps rather than random shifts of topic. Talking with other androgynes it seems they find it easy to follow these changes too c.f. others.
Can you imagine a task force of androgynes! It would be like being assigned the job of decomisioning nukes and we end up with a flower parade down main street.
Hi Nicky,
What you said applies to me.
me too, it even got in my first novel...
The day when I mentioned the girl at the ice-rink we were drinking slightly out of date bottles of cheap cherryade. Colin was shredding the paper label of the bottle. I was reading the ingredients, one of which was cherry flavouring.
"How do you think they get cherry flavouring?" Colin asked me.
"I think they invented it in a lab with chemicals. I doubt it actually tastes like cherry, it's just the red colour makes you think it tastes like it. The colour suggests the flavour, like orange things, orange Smarties don't actually taste of orange but we say they do."
"Yes they do," Colin said.
"They've managed to con you then."
"Nobody cons me." Colin said and wriggled more comfortably into my back. "I wonder what purple tastes like?" I thought for a bit.
"I think it tastes like the purple fruit."
"The purple fruit. There is no purple fruit."
"Purple is a fruit. It's warty and purple coloured and the size of Simon's head."
"That must be a big fruit then."
"It is," I said.
"Must be difficult to tell which is the fruit and which is his head."
"Especially when he's angry."
"What does the purple fruit taste like then?"
"Well," I thought a bit more. "It tastes like Parma Violets."
"Yuck. I won't be drinking purple-ade some time in the future then."
"I saw a girl the other day at the skating rink."
"What?"
"I saw a girl at the skating rink. A lovely perfect kind of girl."
"What did she look like."
"Sort of, perfect."
"When was this?"
"Last week, about eleven o'clock."
"Why didn't you tell me?"
"I didn't really think about it until just now. Talking about Parma Violets made me think about her, because Parma violets made me think about Parma Ham, and of course that made me think about food named after places and people. That made me think about Garibaldi and his Redshirts, who were also known as the 'Thousand Volunteers.' Hitler's Reich was to last a thousand years and he had the same type of moustache as The Tramp, a creation of Charlie Chaplin. That led me to think of the girl at the ice-rink because Chaplin had made a short comedy in 1916 called 'The Rink' where he roller- skated around with the most amazing finesse and skill; and that reminded me of the way the girl was on the ice. Simple really." Colin sighed, jabbed her elbow into my back and then tried to strangle me in a friendly kind of way.
This bit always went down well at readings.
Quote from: Nicky on November 12, 2008, 08:59:21 PM
Can you imagine a task force of androgynes! It would be like being assigned the job of decomisioning nukes and we end up with a flower parade down main street.
We could even do that in winter, the plutonium flower pots would be warm enough to keep the flowers from freezing.
Nfr
Quote from: Nicky on November 12, 2008, 08:59:21 PM
For me the key seems to be a powerful ability for association. I think it helps in thinking up possibilities. On the inside it feels more like quick intuitive leaps rather than random shifts of topic. Talking with other androgynes it seems they find it easy to follow these changes too c.f. others.
This is something I really don't like about myself. Weird twists in conversation that make people look at me funny are just the tip of the iceberg--I actually find it quite hard to communicate ideas sometimes because it's too easy for me to get sidetracked. I end up feeling like I have to run up and down every branch of the fractal. If you ask me for a 1000 word essay on the life-cycle of the bee I will end up writing 30,000 words including the medicinal use of honey, mead-making in the Middle Ages, the transmission of genetically-modified material via microbes in bees' guts, the recent mysterious decline in the honeybee population, and this weird caterpillar I saw on telly once that looks like a Yorkshire pudding and invades hives. Not really what you would call an effective way to present information.
It affects me outside of communication, too--I am useless at everything because I fail to stay on-task. I start out doing the washing-up and before I know it I'm halfway across town in a sports shop looking at kettlebells, through following some chain of connections inside my head. I never finish anything and I'm always messy. I do try to change, but evidently not hard enough.
Well you're certainly not going to gain any good habits by associating with us.
The same happens to me. Plus, nothing is concrete. When I say I'm going to do something, I mean I'm going to do it any time between now and infinity. I really know I'll do it, but won't until some arbitrary moment.
My roommate gets angry about it a lot.
I'm guilty of this as well. I'll start out thinking about something and within a few minutes i've free associated miles away from where I started.
Quote from: riven_one on November 13, 2008, 08:58:33 AM
I'm guilty of this as well. I'll start out thinking about something and within a few minutes i've free associated miles away from where I started.
Ha! It's confirmed: threadjacking is part of the Androgyne/Cissexual Privilege! ;)
Quote from: Rebis on November 13, 2008, 07:40:06 AM
Well you're certainly not going to gain any good habits by associating with us.
The same happens to me. Plus, nothing is concrete. When I say I'm going to do something, I mean I'm going to do it any time between now and infinity. I really know I'll do it, but won't until some arbitrary moment.
My roommate gets angry about it a lot.
my parents hate me doing that, and saying i will do something is a promise as well, i will do it, just don't know when.
I'm always like, "what's your problem? I have it in my mind."
I wish that I had been able to post this while Nero was still part of the conversation, and making rude comments. I find that there is very little male privilege, or cissexual privilege, when you may be seen as a male, but you are none the less seen as a "cissy".
I hear that quite a lot from the male-bodied androgynes on this board. I think it says something quite interesting about male privilege.
Male privilege certainly exists (for example, I don't know any cis guys who've been outright told "you're qualified for this job but you can't have it because you're the wrong gender," or had to put up with daily threats of violence including sexual violence for having the temerity to study a non-gender-appropriate subject, whereas I bloody well have), but it is not universaly accessable. It can be reduced or revoked altogether for a variety of entirely spurious reasons, including being non-gender-conforming. I think this underlines the fundamental irrationality of such privilege.
Lokaeign:
Re "you're qualified for this job but you can't have it because you're the wrong gender," This usually comes out much more in the form of "you can't have the job because you do not meet my expectations of manhood", and of course the form that this expression usually takes is highly euphemised.
Chris B.
But that's not prejudice against you because you're a man. It's prejudice against you because you're not gender-conforming to whatever mindlessly arbitrary standards the potential employer pulled out of their ear.
I have actually had potential employers turn me down saying "You're well qualified for this job and I'd really like to take you on, but you're a woman so I can't." No other factor at work, just "you're a woman so I'm not going to employ you." I've never, ever met a cis guy who's had an employer say that to him. Cis men may certainly experience other forms of prejudice: you mention genderism, there's also ageism, ablism, classism, racism and all the other -isms. But prejudice against one simply for being a man? I'm sure it happens, but it's as rare as hens teeth.
And while I find that I do still have the (male) privilege of riding a bicycle thru highly ethnic parts of town , in the middle of the night, this has nothing to do with being accepted by my educational/professional colleagues.
Chris B.
And while I'm on the subject,(and oh yeah I'm a newbie), I would throw out the comment that in Genesis 5, God said that we are all (each and every one of us) created "Male and Female", S/He did NOT say Male OR Female. Perhaps more on this later.
Lokaiegn: When I was very young, I had one career, and no education. I now have three educations, and no career. When it doesn't work, I'm damned if I care WHY it doesn't work.
Chris B.
Quote from: Chris B. on December 06, 2008, 08:58:22 AM
And while I'm on the subject,(and oh yeah I'm a newbie), I would throw out the comment that in Genesis 5, God said that we are all (each and every one of us) created "Male and Female", S/He did NOT say Male OR Female. Perhaps more on this later.
Yeah, I would throw that comment out too. I don't think the bible should have influence on anything beyond what the wise Bill and Ted said "Be excellent to eachother"
Yeah, Bible not actually universally relevant to all. What about us Tooth-Fairy Worshippers eh?
I've noticed that when the topic of privilege comes up (not just here, I mean everywhere generally) there's often a mad scramble to deny that one has it, or to frame suggestions that one might need to check one's privilege as an unwarrented attack. Why is this? I mean, we all know privilege exists, right--we can all point to the privileges we don't have easily enough, why is it such a stretch to recognise the ones we do?
Here are some of mine, in no particular order:
White privilege: this is a HUGE one I've become more aware of it over the years. Nobody questions my right to study "white" topics, to go into "white" spaces, to have a white partner or to worship in the faith of my choice, whereas I see my BME friends get that garbage all the time. (Especially the last one.) People of my ethnicity are well represented in positions of power and in the media. Nobody yells ethnic slurs at me in the street. I could go on.
Cis privilege: This is a bit more of a vexed issue since you can't really call 3rdy "cis." But I'd say that since I don't always present as 3rd I definately benefit from cis privilege most of the time. I'm read as my natal gender by most people--nobody yells at me for going into the Ladies' loo, nobody accuses me of misleading them by presenting as the "wrong" gender, I don't suffer from employer discrimination based on transphobia, etc. I'd actually like to jettison this one if I could, but right now I couldn't do so without invoking a whole slew of other privileges (such as having a partner who'll understand and support me if I can't get a job).
Straight privilege: Again, bit of a sticky wicket because an androgyne is arguably not heterosexual unless ze only does other androgynes, and because I do experience powerful feelings of same sex attraction and even romantic love. I have also been read as a lesbian or a gay man in the past and threatened with violence based on this. But because I'm usually read as female and in a relationship with a cis guy, I'm percieved as straight and I enjoy straight privilege. Nobody questions my right to be with my bloke, nobody harrasses or threatens me for going out with him, we can hold hands and snog in public without getting beaten up, etc.
Educational privilege: This is another biggie that often goes unregarded. Again, my access to this is not 100% clear-cut, since I was deschooled as a youngin and basically left to educate myself from the age of 11 onwards. (Not my folks' fault--I was rather an uninspiring child to teach, being lazy, inattentive, and frankly a bit thick. If I'd been a better kid I'm sure they'd have been keen to offer more input.) But I did live in a house filled with books, have parents who read to me, and who let me stay in education until I left home at 18. Plenty of people with far more potential than I ever demonstrated get hauled out of school and sent off to work at 16. I even have some university education, although I didn't graduate (see a bit thick, above).
Able-bodied privilege: Again not 100% on this one as I have epilepsy (now thankfully in abeyance), MDD, and a mild case of arthritis which sometimes affects mobility a little. And I have in fact experienced ablist discrimination, being refused jobs I could do standing on my head on the grounds of my epilepsy*. But I "pass" as ab, don't have to worry about access to transport or public places, don't have to fight tooth and nail to get my basic needs met, etc. I've also had some people with other psych diagnoses argue that people with my diagnosis are privileged relative to them, which seems like a reasonable assertion.
I'm sure I could think of a lot more, but that's quite enough to be going on with!
*One potential employer asserted that she didn't have to hire "disableds" because "you're fire hazards." Apparently being epileptic makes you a "fire hazard," because, er, you might have a fit during a fire, and people might trip over you running away from the fire. Arguably the chance to work for a complete bigot is no great loss, however.
Quote from: Lokaeign on December 09, 2008, 12:01:08 PM
Straight privilege: Again, bit of a sticky wicket because an androgyne is arguably not heterosexual unless ze only does other androgynes, and because I do experience powerful feelings of same sex attraction and even romantic love. I have also been read as a lesbian or a gay man in the past and threatened with violence based on this. But because I'm usually read as female and in a relationship with a cis guy, I'm percieved as straight and I enjoy straight privilege. Nobody questions my right to be with my bloke, nobody harrasses or threatens me for going out with him, we can hold hands and snog in public without getting beaten up, etc.
couldn't this be either way? We are heterosexual only if we're with another androgyne. But if you get naked with someone of your own 3rdness, isn't that homosexual too?
This could go on forever. Are we perverts if we get naked with cisgendered people? Or, are we perverts if we get together with each other?
I'm using the word 'pervert' tongue-in-cheek (which may be yet another perversion) as I am being playful with the questions I just asked even though I am also serious.
An androgyne trait = I'm serious, though I'm kidding. :P
My mistake--I meant to put queer where I've written het. Actually that whole paragraph is a bit all over the place. My brane hurtz.
Actually I suppose to be flawlessly het I'd have to be doing a male-bodied androg... not, hang on, that doesn't work either. It's all rather confusing.
Quote from: Lokaeign on December 06, 2008, 08:40:20 AM
But that's not prejudice against you because you're a man. It's prejudice against you because you're not gender-conforming to whatever mindlessly arbitrary standards the potential employer pulled out of their ear.
I have actually had potential employers turn me down saying "You're well qualified for this job and I'd really like to take you on, but you're a woman so I can't." No other factor at work, just "you're a woman so I'm not going to employ you." I've never, ever met a cis guy who's had an employer say that to him. Cis men may certainly experience other forms of prejudice: you mention genderism, there's also ageism, ablism, classism, racism and all the other -isms. But prejudice against one simply for being a man? I'm sure it happens, but it's as rare as hens teeth.
Last year my boss would not hire a man for a full time position he was only going to hire a female worker so it does happen, and he did hire a very under qualified female employee over a more qualified male one. He never said it to the people he was interviewing as that would be stupid.
Quote from: KatherineOM on December 10, 2008, 04:26:35 AM
Quote from: Lokaeign on December 06, 2008, 08:40:20 AM
But that's not prejudice against you because you're a man. It's prejudice against you because you're not gender-conforming to whatever mindlessly arbitrary standards the potential employer pulled out of their ear.
I have actually had potential employers turn me down saying "You're well qualified for this job and I'd really like to take you on, but you're a woman so I can't." No other factor at work, just "you're a woman so I'm not going to employ you." I've never, ever met a cis guy who's had an employer say that to him. Cis men may certainly experience other forms of prejudice: you mention genderism, there's also ageism, ablism, classism, racism and all the other -isms. But prejudice against one simply for being a man? I'm sure it happens, but it's as rare as hens teeth.
Last year my boss would not hire a man for a full time position he was only going to hire a female worker so it does happen, and he did hire a very overqualified female employee over a more qualified male one. He never said it to the people he was interviewing as that would be stupid.
The day-care center we used to bring our kids to would only hire men for the custodian/janitor positions. All care givers were female. That was the official policy.
Quote from: Lokaeign on December 10, 2008, 04:09:29 AM
Actually I suppose to be flawlessly het I'd have to be doing a male-bodied androg... not, hang on, that doesn't work either. It's all rather confusing.
I know. Maybe we're a special kind of queer -
HeteroQueer or
homohetero.
Maybe we shouldn't go near prefixes such as hetero or homo. Great. Another place where we don't fit.
If you read academic hiring postings you see the words "Females and other qualified minorities are encouraged to apply" which is academic double speak for "we're not going to hire a white guy, so don't waste your time."
Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2008, 10:26:15 AM
If you read academic hiring postings you see the words "Females and other qualified minorities are encouraged to apply" which is academic double speak for "we're not going to hire a white guy, so don't waste your time."
It always strikes me as odd to include females in 'minorities' since (at least in the US...well, probably most fully industrialized countries) there are more females than males...generally. Demographics are fun!!! (somebody's a geography nerd...)
Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2008, 10:26:15 AM
If you read academic hiring postings you see the words "Females and other qualified minorities are encouraged to apply" which is academic double speak for "we're not going to hire a white guy, so don't waste your time."
Really. I thought it was academic speak for "personnel office not staffed by bigots, you might actually have a hope in Hel for once."
Sorry if I come across as a bit spiky on this topic but when you've been turned down for multiple jobs on the grounds that "this is a male environment, you wouldn't fit in," "women can't use computers," and seen your mates go through similar garbage it's very hard to listen to people telling you how terribly terribly persecuted white men are.
Quote from: Lokaeign on December 10, 2008, 05:48:54 PM
Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2008, 10:26:15 AM
If you read academic hiring postings you see the words "Females and other qualified minorities are encouraged to apply" which is academic double speak for "we're not going to hire a white guy, so don't waste your time."
Really. I thought is was academic speak for "you might actually have a hope in Hel for once."
It does seem to imply that if only certain persons are encouraged to apply, that other persons are discouraged from doing so.
No, it means that we can pretty much take it as read that white gender-conforming cis males are going to apply anyway, and don't need extra encouragement whereas a woman or a person from a minority group might well have been turned down so many times that they've become utterly disheartened and need the invitation to get them to even try. I'd like to see signs that mentioned trans folk as well, but this is a start.
I didn't say that it meant that white men were discouraged from applying. I guess I should have been more clear in my post.
What I meant was that is seems to imply to me that a person such as myself should not consider applying as I am part of a group that is not being explictly encouraged to apply. To me, that does seem like persons like me are indeed discouraged from applying. But, that's how the subtext appears to me. That doesn't mean that what I perceive as the subtext is the actual intention of the statement. It's just how it seems to me.
Sure is the way I read it, and - because I pay attention - its the way it comes out. You can find out who got the job after all.
I just realized that we can be Queerosexuals.
Yes, I know. Get back on topic.